Box rule in Australia, Input what do we need ?? Options

[Red Dolphin]

To give a summary, I think we have decided to design our own class around the 8.5mtr mark, as this will give us several benefits, cheap, fast and class racing. The biggest benefit we see is OMR as this system applies to nearly all boats. We have found OMR to be best looked at as efficiency based, this is on sail selection and design, tactics and crew work.

In our view this is what makes a great sailor and the team who puts this together best will win. This is why OMR rocks and any boat who applies these principles is a winner.

Best of luck with your one off boat shaneo. I hope the kiwis do come over and kick your stupid ass anyway.

Dolf

[pacice]

To give a summary, I think we have decided to design our own class around the 8.5mtr mark, as this will give us several benefits, cheap, fast and class racing. The biggest benefit we see is OMR as this system applies to nearly all boats. We have found OMR to be best looked at as efficiency based, this is on sail selection and design, tactics and crew work.

In our view this is what makes a great sailor and the team who puts this together best will win. This is why OMR rocks and any boat who applies these principles is a winner.

Best of luck with your one off boat shaneo. I hope the kiwis do come over and kick your stupid ass anyway.

Dolf

Go for a 9.5m rule. The Kiwi's have a few tri's which are ready to kick some aussie butt.

[Jacko_Aus]

To give a summary, I think we have decided to design our own class ....

Would you care to define "we" ....

just so the rest of the planet doesn't lump all Aussies into the one group that think that your idea is a good idea.....

[GybeSet®]

who is ' we ' ?

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I think the challenge or goal would be to design a nz-compliant 8.5 boat that is OMR friendly !

second mast or not !

nz-8.5 seems like too much fun to worry about an old rating system anyway ?
.

[basildog]

At the start of this thread Shaneo made the following comment "After lots of months and drinks at the club we have 3 people very interested in this concept of (cheap,OMR, trailerable nationals, box development)." Well Shaneo you take your 3 mates and build your boats.

I agree with Jacko Aus you define who the "WE" is. The Kiwi 8.5 Rule has produced bloody quick modestly priced boats that are unlikely to date. To hell with the OMR rule what about boat for boat racing? Not handicap/rule cheaters. Being an ex Kiwi I'd be keen to see an Inter Dominion Series in a couple of years time - boat for boat.

[Indian Chief]

At the start of this thread Shaneo made the following comment "After lots of months and drinks at the club we have 3 people very interested in this concept of (cheap,OMR, trailerable nationals, box development)." Well Shaneo you take your 3 mates and build your boats.

I agree with Jacko Aus you define who the "WE" is. The Kiwi 8.5 Rule has produced bloody quick modestly priced boats that are unlikely to date. To hell with the OMR rule what about boat for boat racing? Not handicap/rule cheaters. Being an ex Kiwi I'd be keen to see an Inter Dominion Series in a couple of years time - boat for boat.

I agree tht the NZ 8.5s are a fantastic concept if thatt your go. Its terrific seeing the fleet growing and appealing to so many people. However. how can you call the NZ 8.5s, boat for boat racing, most of them are different designs. 8.5s racing each other are no different to two evenly OMR rated multis racing each other as they may be different designs but rate the same. When there are several boats in a race that rate similarly on OMR and they rate up near 1 believe me its exciting racing and a whole lot faster than a NZ 8.5 boat. As i have said previously I'm not sure a lot of people on this forum understand this topic all that well. If you want to go class racing either build identical boats or buy a Lazer and go class racing. 8.5s are not identical boats, they just fit into to a particular measurement criteria. I was interested to read somewhere that they race for line honours but still run 1, 2 3 on performance handicap. Gents, there is no system that is perfect, just build or buy a multi that suits you and race the shit out of it and enjoy.

[pacice]

The lesson that can be learnt from the 8.5 rule, is to kick start a new class, try and develop it on an existing group of boats.
Oz has a good group of high performance boats in the 9 to 9.5m length.

[Godfrey Bigot]

Is the grainger essential 8 allowed in the kiwi class under the grandfather clause its not exactly kosher with beam and rig height?

Did you make your rules around excluding our faster boats?

[pacice]

Is the grainger essential 8 allowed in the kiwi class under the grandfather clause its not exactly kosher with beam and rig height?

Did you make your rules around excluding our faster boats?

The Grandfather clause is for existing yacht,s not existing designs.

[Scarecrow]

I agree tht the NZ 8.5s are a fantastic concept if thatt your go. Its terrific seeing the fleet growing and appealing to so many people. However. how can you call the NZ 8.5s, boat for boat racing, most of them are different designs. 8.5s racing each other are no different to two evenly OMR rated multis racing each other as they may be different designs but rate the same. When there are several boats in a race that rate similarly on OMR and they rate up near 1 believe me its exciting racing and a whole lot faster than a NZ 8.5 boat. As i have said previously I'm not sure a lot of people on this forum understand this topic all that well. If you want to go class racing either build identical boats or buy a Lazer and go class racing. 8.5s are not identical boats, they just fit into to a particular measurement criteria. I was interested to read somewhere that they race for line honours but still run 1, 2 3 on performance handicap. Gents, there is no system that is perfect, just build or buy a multi that suits you and race the shit out of it and enjoy.

The close racing in the A cat and F18 fleets suggest you're talking out your arse. Lots of clubs run a line honours and PBH fleet in parallel, even in off the beach boats. It keeps everyone happy and encourages the newbies.

[Scarecrow]

Love too.

1. You suggest that the 8.5's can't race boat for boat because they are different designs. However, existing classes ranging from A cats through f18s to TP52 have demonstrated that with a suitably designed box it is indeed possible for a class to have close racing despite being from a range of designs. Therefor your suggestion that the only way to get close racing is to buy identical boats is plainly wrong.

2. You then go on to criticise the class for giving prizes for both line honours and PBH results. As I suggested in my reply, this is common practice at a lot of clubs and within many classes as a way to encourage those new to the class by rewarding improvement. It also allows those who can't compete at the top level financially to still get on the podium at times.

3. Not mentioned in my first of the cuff comment but an interesting alternative based upon your comments would be a level rating class similar to the European 104 class for off the beach cats and the metre rules of old. You could nominate a close set of OMR (minimum and maximum) ratings and encourage people to build boats that fall in that bracket.

This thread is not about whats better OMR or box rule racing its about whether people would be interested in having access to a rule that would eventually allow them to race similar boats on a first to the line basis and if so would the 8.5m rule be of interest and would they consider any tweeks to the rule to make the boats more competitive under OMR until such a class reached critical mass.

Feel free to reply or not, I don't really care. However if you do, please take the time to seperate your thoughts into seperate paragraphs so that it is easier for others to comment and point out where they agree and/or disagree.

[jamez]

Is the grainger essential 8 allowed in the kiwi class under the grandfather clause its not exactly kosher with beam and rig height?

Did you make your rules around excluding our faster boats?

No the rule was originally based around the measurements of the GBE 8.5. Existing aussie c.8 metre designs weren't a consideration, which is not surprising as there are virtually none here.

[Indian Chief]

Love too.

1. You suggest that the 8.5's can't race boat for boat because they are different designs. However, existing classes ranging from A cats through f18s to TP52 have demonstrated that with a suitably designed box it is indeed possible for a class to have close racing despite being from a range of designs. Therefor your suggestion that the only way to get close racing is to buy identical boats is plainly wrong.

Where did i suggest 8.5s can't race boat for boat? Where did i suggest you have to class race to enjoy close racing? I'm sure i made a point saying how much fun it is racing evenly matched OMR boats.

2. You then go on to criticise the class for giving prizes for both line honours and PBH results. As I suggested in my reply, this is common practice at a lot of clubs and within many classes as a way to encourage those new to the class by rewarding improvement. It also allows those who can't compete at the top level financially to still get on the podium at times.

Where did I criticise anything let alone how they give prizes. I simply made comment. I made comment how good the 8.5's are for people that want to race that style of Multi and said how good it is that they are growing and apealing to so many people.

3. Not mentioned in my first of the cuff comment but an interesting alternative based upon your comments would be a level rating class similar to the European 104 class for off the beach cats and the metre rules of old. You could nominate a close set of OMR (minimum and maximum) ratings and encourage people to build boats that fall in that bracket.

Yes thats been a talked about opportunity for years

This thread is not about whats better OMR or box rule racing its about whether people would be interested in having access to a rule that would eventually allow them to race similar boats on a first to the line basis and if so would the 8.5m rule be of interest and would they consider any tweeks to the rule to make the boats more competitive under OMR until such a class reached critical mass.

Yes I agree. If you understood the OMR rule you would understand that the rule would rate an 8.5 boat accordingly. I don't know where the perception came from that an 8.5 boat would not be competitive under OMR. My my point is it seems a lot of people on this forum don't understand the OMR rule. OMR evens every boat up so it comes down to the guys sailing the boat to sail it to its rating, that's the attraction of the rule!

Feel free to reply or not, I don't really care. However if you do, please take the time to seperate your thoughts into seperate paragraphs so that it is easier for others to comment and point out where they agree and/or disagree.

[color="#FF0000"]Please don't miss quote me to suit yourself or attempt to make me out to be critisising any sort of multihull movement. I believe you have twisted what i said around. I am simply expressing my own opinion and experience. Thank you for your feedback, however I wont be entering into any further discussion on this with you.
Good sailing.

[Scarecrow]

Where did i suggest 8.5s can't race boat for boat? Where did i suggest you have to class race to enjoy close racing? I'm sure i made a point saying how much fun it is racing evenly matched OMR boats.

Here

However. how can you call the NZ 8.5s, boat for boat racing, most of them are different designs.

[pacice]

In the 8.5 champs, the boats race boat for boat. Thats what the box rule is designed to do.
In club races, and other races, they race to their handicap, performance based or otherwise.

The 8.5 box rule has been very successful in developing a class of boats that race with very close performance.
The mast height and min weight are the keys to ensure this happens.

The problem with OMR is it races it rates on sail area, and this would give the 8.5's a high handicap due to the upwind sails used.

I personally feel handicaps will never give close boat to boat racing, as people will always design to get around the rule. Downwind sails is one such area.
They may from time to time give close corrected times, but this is as much good luck as good management.
Box rules with restrictions seem to develop boats that are far nearer in overall performance, while allowing people to develop their own idea's, and box rules is the way most racing it going.
One design racing, is a marketer's dream, "you can only buy your boat and equipment from us". Hobie and Laser have made fortunes doing this.

Multihullers are not conformers. We like to do our own thing, and a box rule allows us to do our own thing, while still giving a good chance of close boat for boat racing.