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Member Since 29 Feb 2008
Offline Last Active Jul 12 2011 02:31 AM

Posts I've Made

In Topic: Need new J24 shrouds: two questions

13 June 2011 - 07:02 PM

Time to get some new shrouds for our J24.  We have had the 5mm Dyform, open-turnbuckle type on there since the late 90s.  They are kinked, tired, and the fittings look to be pretty damn clapped out, so I think it's high time for a new set.  Questions:

1. Ought I to stick with Dyform cables, or go to the regular 3/16" cables?  My understanding is that the plain 3/16" type are lighter and easier on the genoa, but that they do stretch more because there is more cross-sectional area.  I'm not sure it makes much of a difference other than at the world-class level, but if so it would be great to know.

2. Perhaps more importantly, should I stick with open turnbuckles or go for those sexy Ronstan calibrated turnbuckles with handles?  They look like an excellent product and I've seen them at regattas, but I don't know anyone who has them locally.  I am thinking that the ability to change shroud tension in a jif without tools, and without having to muck around with those velcro scar pin things to hold them from rotating, could prove a huge convenience and timesaver, and reduce the risk of dropping wrenches overboard.  Is there a downside to them?  Will the spin pole clip on around the fatter base, especially if said base has the fold-down handle on it?

Thanks for any thoughts.

I can't seem to find Dyform readily available these days - I can tell you though that the sexy ronston turnbuckles / handles are excellent and are much easier than dealing w/ wrenches - many of the U20's have them today and your rigging supplier should be able to purchase them for you.  Can't comment on the spin pole as we run a sprit -

In Topic: SI interpretation

13 June 2011 - 03:29 PM

FYI, here is the statement on the NCPHRF application form;

I understand that it is my responsibility to notify the handicapper of
changes to this yacht—which affect measurement points, handicap
adjustments, or would alter her from a standard boat.


Cheers, Winever.    former NCPHRF Committee member,

Thanks Winver - but no issue - was only a "virtual" example and was not real, was just to say that I would consider that an unsportsmanlike gesture because it would be hiding something from the competitors, probably could've used a better example.  My point was just to say that guys are implying that I was being unsportsmanlike for misinterpreting the SI - and to me I dont think me being an idiot is unsportsmanlike.  I never questioned the SI before the race because it seemed clear to me prior to the race so why would I go to the RC, and it wasn't like I was trying to hide what I was doing - just read the implied meaning of the SI incorrectly.

In Topic: SI interpretation

13 June 2011 - 01:28 PM

As for being sneaky and weasly- would you think that someone who added a folding prop after they got their PHRF Certificate and not notifying NCPHRF to get their rating adjusted was sneaky?  
Maybe we should talk about that :)

Now there is a can of worms just opened. Continue .....

Always good stuff to talk about and get perspective on when it comes to rules ;)   but that wasn't the point of my question on this post - just wanted to get other interpretations on how the SI was written and if it was clear to everyone what the RC meant and if anyone else could've interpreted it like me.  Seems like folks could've read it both ways - Thanks for being involved and commenting, its all good feedback -

In Topic: SI interpretation

13 June 2011 - 05:49 AM


The only reason you "interpreted" the SI the way you did was it helped  your tactics to do so.  It is certainly obvious that someone COULD read the rule as you did but it is also pretty obvious the RC COULD have intended for the sailors to stay in the channel EXCEPT when starting or finishing.


I suspect you were one of a few who chose to shortcut and act like it was OK.  No harm there but..  As you had plenty of time to read that instruction and ask before trying your interpretation so EVERYBODY could play the same game...YOU decided to be the "wise guy" and...also as the selfish wise guy...

You decided to try to win the contest not by sailing faster aand with greater teamwork than your competitors but by sailing your own clever private interpretation of the course.  With your special interpretation shortcut, your shift picking and tide inderstanding didn't mean squat...every part of the sailing skills contest was trumped by your special ability to find loopholes in SIs.

the RC said..

We are gonna toss you because you are not the most sportsmanlike guy this week..

and I agree.

What drivel. In racing seek we seek fair advantages over the competition all the time - better boatspeed, execution of maneuvers, spotting of shifts, sail selection, reading of current, relative boat placement, other tactical considerations, etc. Based on what has been presented in this thread, the OP was not seeking seek a loophole or unfair advantage, but rather played the game fairly and by the same rules as everybody else. It is not his responsibility to ensure that everybody has the same interpretation of the SIs (or RRS...or the weather forecast...or the evening's TV schedule).
In fact, rather than berating the OP about interpreting the SIs correctly/as they were written, one might ak why the other competitors did not bother to do read the SIs carefully or why the OA/RC published SIs that did not reflect their intent (assuming that they really wanted everybody to stay inside the channel). Your are really pissing up the wrong tree here, mate.

Moreover, unless you have any other evidence or relevant facts, your insinuation that the OP tried to play unfair is offensive and unsportsmanlike.


Gouvernail hit it on the head.  For all the years our brother Fitz has raced with this particular club, ( going on about 10 or more is my guess),  the river races always require honoring the government marks.  This gives everyone the opportunity,  regardless of draft, the challenge of sailing both in slow and fast water and evening out the strategic choices for both shallow and deep draft boats.  In the past, the Catalina 22's would pull their boards up and spank everyone by always staying shallow.  Brother Fitz did selfishly interpret the SI's in a weasly sort of way. The breezes were light and his U20 shoulda and coulda crushed and obliterated the other boats purely on the merits Gouvernail mentions.  ( The competition was a Hunter 28, " yours truly and the winner" and a Capri 22)).   Sailing in such a wonderful, relaxed club race should be about the sailing, not cutting loose the one-eyed monster view of tangential interpretation.

Whoa there Guys,  This isn't about protesting a race.  It is just a summer series race.

I'm not looking for an out or excuse, after the race, I asked for a clarification from the RC on the SI in question after they told me I was DQ'd at the finish line.  At first they told me that that instruction was not in the sailing instructions, and when I showed them my printed copy they explained their meaning to me and I simply asked that they update the SI and repost  for the rest of the series.   I didn't do anything unsportsmanlike - I cut the mark passing directly in front of the committee boat (w/in 5 feet of them) - so that they clearly new what I was doing, didn't try to hide it, nobody (competitor or RC) pointed at me and said foul, nobody to my knowledge protested during the race.  Since I was the lead boat, buy a good distance - it was my mistake to make and everyone else to take advantage of if I was wrong and everyone did.  One of the problems with being out front all the time is that you have to be right about everything - Hell, Dolphinmaster, If I hadn't beat you to the first mark, you would've rounded it the wrong way, as the pin at the start was on starboard.  Your welcome for that btw...

But, I digress,  my question to the sailors on this forum was how they interpreted the rule, so I could understand if I was the only person on earth who misread this instruction and if I was wrong in asking the RC to clarify it in the SI's for future races.  Some folks interpreted different than I, but some interpreted the same way I did.   Since that is the case, I don't feel that I made a bad decision.  The RC disagreed and I was DQ'd, and it is what it is, I didn't post the question to discuss whether I was being unfair and I didn't post it to see if I could "weasel out of it", I was more interested in getting the unbiased opinions from experienced racers or race committee members and maybe get some suggestions to pass to the RC on how to clarify the rule so numnuts like me don't mis read it in the future.  

This rule has not been in the SI's written like this in several years.  In the past, when this instruction was in the SI's,  I have crewed (not helmed) on boats on the same river course that did the same thing that I did, also right in front of the committee boat, and there was no foul then, same yacht club, - so why would I think that there was one now?  I race that river quite a bit more than you and I was surprised to see this rule back in the SI's.

As to why nobody else made the same interpretation that I did?  

I found out that the SI's I printed the morning of the race from the yacht club web site - were different than what was handed out at the Captains meeting.   Since I entered into the series races after the captains meeting (first race was cancelled so I entered the series after) but before the rescheduled  first race, I printed the Web site version of the SI's which was dated April 15, 2011.  The SIs that everyone was handed at the meeting do not even have this instruction in them whatsoever, so why would anyone else make the same mistake I did if there wasn't anything in the SI that they all had?

As for playing unfairly - I do take offense at your implication.  I didn't try to hide anything, I didn't protest or ask for redress, in fact I committed the foul directly in front of the RC.  Part of the problem with being the lead boat is that you have to be dead on and not make a mistake on course or roundings.   I asked for clarification of the rule after the race, after I found out I was DQ'd.     I learned I was wrong and I was DQ'd.  Didn't the system work in that scenario the way that it should?

We all sail to the instructions as we read them.  If we make a mistake, we get DQ'd.  Thats the way it is.    What exactly is unfair about mis interpreting an SI - and performing the foul in front of the RC and getting DQ'd when you think you are doing the right thing? Here I am thinking you didn't read the instructions.  I may not agree with them, but I didn't protest or ask for redress.  

As for being sneaky and weasly- would you think that someone who added a folding prop after they got their PHRF Certificate and not notifying NCPHRF to get their rating adjusted was sneaky?  
Maybe we should talk about that :)

In Topic: SI interpretation

11 June 2011 - 11:56 PM

Can anyone give me an interpretation of below - pulled from the Sailing instructions - running in a river race - if the pin end of the start / finish line is a government mark - do you have to honor it if the windward / leward marks are above and below (respectively) -

Once the start is over, should it become a Government mark again?

8.9 River Races - All government marks must be observed on their proper side unless they are

designated a turning mark of the course or the start/finish mark.

Is the start/finish line "closed" during the race? i.e. are you required to not cross that line except when starting or finishing.

Seems the SIs maybe should have read "....designated a turning mark of the course or the start/finish mark when starting or finishing".

without that bit a boat could not be penalised for passing a start mark on the "proper" side.

No, the start / finish aren't closed during the race, in writing, however, if you cross the start / finish, you are not honoring the Mark as it outside of the channel -

" honoring the Mark " are words NOT in the RRS and have no meaning under the rules. You cannot be DSQ for not "honoring" a mark.

Is the start mark a mark of the course on each lap?

The start is on a 90 degree bend in the river - so the government mark (R16) marks the channel - The Start line is a few hundred yards towards the shore (plenty of water) with the commitee boat anchored near the shore.   The channel is 40 - 50' deep, and the current (depending on the tide) is 4 knots, so it is tactically smart to stay out of the deep water, and run in the shallow water.   But the question I have is how would you interpret the rule - I took it right out of the SI's.  I interpreted it that I no longer had to honor the mark as it was the Pin on the Start. Racing committee stated that once the start occurred, it no longer is the Starting mark, it becomes a government mark and we should have honored it.  I see their point, but it doesn't read that way to me -