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SpongeDeckSquareFoil

Member Since 10 Aug 2005
Offline Last Active Dec 06 2016 10:31 PM
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Posts I've Made

In Topic: Upcoming catboat disaster

19 October 2016 - 09:28 PM

 

Boy, you guys are tough. It all sounds nice and good unless you're out for a sail on busy weekend and the wind drops to minus Beaufort, and the hundreds of powerboats out that weekend have resulted in an unending, indiscernible chop pattern, and it's hot.

So you can wait for the wind and bob erratically for hours getting brain-addled from the heat while the sails slap like a jerkin teen,  or stash the sails and motor the few miles in. Call it.

 

(I should be retired next summer so most sailing will be during the week. I'll probably be less cranky.)

 

"minus Beaufort" :lol:

 

Are you a Chesapeake sailor? You seem to have nailed our summer conditions pretty well. I've motored far more than I care to this year.

 

No, not on the bay. I sail on Lake St. Clair in MI. We get a taste of those hot steamers, but not for the extended periods you folks get.


In Topic: Upcoming catboat disaster

19 October 2016 - 12:50 AM

Boy, you guys are tough. It all sounds nice and good unless you're out for a sail on busy weekend and the wind drops to minus Beaufort, and the hundreds of powerboats out that weekend have resulted in an unending, indiscernible chop pattern, and it's hot.

So you can wait for the wind and bob erratically for hours getting brain-addled from the heat while the sails slap like a jerkin teen,  or stash the sails and motor the few miles in. Call it.

 

(I should be retired next summer so most sailing will be during the week. I'll probably be less cranky.)


In Topic: 34' boat with 30 people on board capsizes in SF?

12 October 2016 - 04:58 PM

yeah, poor proofreading/editing on the CG booklet. They did have a table that supported the text that only had measurement in feet. Still sloppy, though.


In Topic: 34' boat with 30 people on board capsizes in SF?

11 October 2016 - 11:10 PM

 

 

We've been told, and the Coast Guard and many states still say, that an "alternative" method for calculating max passenger capacity is Length times Beam, divided by 15.

 

Example:  http://www.centralma...aft_2012-07-15/

Another:  http://www.google.co...UVYJBWKMZe7zPMg

 

Does anyone think this is way too many people?  Even on a beamy powerboat?

 

34-foot powerboat in SF Bay, capsizes.  Beam what, maybe 12 feet?  The formula comes up with 27.2 people?  WTF?   Seems too many for me.  This boat may have passed the "formula" even though we are all guffawing at 30 souls on board.  Glad they are all safe so we *can* joke about it.

 

Now take for example a 30 foot keel sloop, beam 8, 240 divided by 15 is still *16* passengers.  That's about twice what I'd feel comfortable with.

 

I wrote to the Coast Guard once to question the "rule"/ guidance, or whatever it is.  I was concerned about learn-to-sail booklets that parroted it, as I teach sailing as an occasional weekend gig and it seemed to me this was a piece of bad advice.  They replied but basically said it was a suggestion, they did't seem interested in changing it.

A few years ago I did some research regarding that LxB/15 formula. IIRC, it goes back quite a few years, and, as stated, was meant to be a rough guideline. The important part of the original wording, and the part that is always forgotten, was some qualifying phrasing, something like “does not include or account for engines or drive mechanisms, bulkheads, framing, furniture, etc…..”.  It was essentially a maximum formula for an empty hull, to be modified by the boat builder as hardware and structure was added.   (Interestingly, the formula does seem to work for something like an emergency lifeboat.)
 
As is typical, few people included the qualifying phrasing when they quoted or referred to the rule, so it became totally misunderstood and misused.  
 
 
Sorry, can’t re-locate those old documents I’m referencing. Someone out there must have a bored kid that can do some searching in exchange for a few beers or something.

 

 

And they meant it for block-shaped hulls, like barges, not fine-ended ones like sailboats.  But if it didn't take into account internal bulkheads and framing, engines and tankage, why on earth is it even used as a formula for number of passengers?    I think this "formula" is (or has become) more of a danger to be misused than good guidance when you don't have other guidance. 

The CG states that the formula is not for boats longer than 20 ft. (see below).  20 feet is also the high limit of a boat that legally requires a capacity plate. So they are just using the formula for boats that should be plated but aren't.  If an owner of a larger boat uses the formula that is the owner's problem. Sorry. 

I don't think the CG wants to get into specifying requirements for all personal boats.  And I think that we do not want them to get involved in making that determination. 

 

 

From  http://uscgboating.org/images/420.PDF

If there is no capacity plate, use the following formula as a guide to de-

termine the maximum number of persons you can safely carry in calm
weather . The formula is applicable only to mono-hull boats less than
20 feet (12 meters) in length . A mono-hull is a boat that makes a single
“footprint” in the water when loaded to its rated capacity; catamarans,
trimarans, and pontoon boats are not mono-hull boats .

In Topic: 34' boat with 30 people on board capsizes in SF?

11 October 2016 - 09:51 PM

We've been told, and the Coast Guard and many states still say, that an "alternative" method for calculating max passenger capacity is Length times Beam, divided by 15.

 

Example:  http://www.centralma...aft_2012-07-15/

Another:  http://www.google.co...UVYJBWKMZe7zPMg

 

Does anyone think this is way too many people?  Even on a beamy powerboat?

 

34-foot powerboat in SF Bay, capsizes.  Beam what, maybe 12 feet?  The formula comes up with 27.2 people?  WTF?   Seems too many for me.  This boat may have passed the "formula" even though we are all guffawing at 30 souls on board.  Glad they are all safe so we *can* joke about it.

 

Now take for example a 30 foot keel sloop, beam 8, 240 divided by 15 is still *16* passengers.  That's about twice what I'd feel comfortable with.

 

I wrote to the Coast Guard once to question the "rule"/ guidance, or whatever it is.  I was concerned about learn-to-sail booklets that parroted it, as I teach sailing as an occasional weekend gig and it seemed to me this was a piece of bad advice.  They replied but basically said it was a suggestion, they did't seem interested in changing it.

A few years ago I did some research regarding that LxB/15 formula. IIRC, it goes back quite a few years, and, as stated, was meant to be a rough guideline. The important part of the original wording, and the part that is always forgotten, was some qualifying phrasing, something like “does not include or account for engines or drive mechanisms, bulkheads, framing, furniture, etc…..”.  It was essentially a maximum formula for an empty hull, to be modified by the boat builder as hardware and structure was added.   (Interestingly, the formula does seem to work for something like an emergency lifeboat.)
 
As is typical, few people included the qualifying phrasing when they quoted or referred to the rule, so it became totally misunderstood and misused.  
 
 
Sorry, can’t re-locate those old documents I’m referencing. Someone out there must have a bored kid that can do some searching in exchange for a few beers or something.