I was looking at the results and it appears the 36.7 came in ahead of the 109.

There were 3 109's
and 11 36.7's

The 1st 36.7 finished 41:39 Karma
and our own (DG) Padawan 2nd 41:58

The 109's were 4th 42:02 Realt Na Mara,
8th 42.39 and 20th.

I thought this was a reaching dream for the 109's

How about some input from people in those classes?

We (Padawan) rocked. They didn't.

That is all.

Hroth

LOVE THE REPLY!!!!

Wasn't there and don't know the boats, BUT were the J109's using the OD sails or the PHRF/IRC sails. That would make a huge difference in performance. The OD sails are really small and the kite (especially) downwind is an underperformer. If that is the case, I would imagine that a well sailed 36.7 would have an edge. If it wasn't, well......Maybe the learning curve on the 109 is steeper(?), but i guess it's who's on the boat and how much experience they have that really gets the result.

Well...... then.........

Umm...... wow.....

Thanks for the modest response???, I guess??

DG

To even the record- the 36.7 fleet went with a OD inventory as well. Symmetrical kites (2), #1,#3 and a main. We did not have a rock star sailor driving the boats either (aka Full Tilt). I do have to give props to the Realt na mara crew- as they sailed their boat very well.

109's are not particularly good reaching boats - esp tight reaches.

I would have been great to have been able to carry my A-sail for that race -

We carried our class kite quite well, but I really would have loved to see that pretty blue A-sail in action.

I don't see the need for a class inventory when you are doing 300+ mile races. Their attempt at extending the inventory by saying 'up to 10 class sails can be taken during races in excess of 50 miles', is total bullshit. I say, keep the OD sail inventory for can races, but let's get out the REAL inventory that makes this boat really hum along. A-sails, jibtop, drifter, etc. If you can afford the boat, a few extra sails aren't going to break the bank.

Also, while the no pro driver rule may make sense, I don't see the need to sign up a pile of your category 1 crew members as associate members of the 36.7 class at $25 per pop just to let them touch the big wheel thingy at the back of the boat. That's also a big pile of bull shit stinky poop! I signed up another crew member just so I was legal in the sharing of my wheel duties, but it was stoooo-pid. Fuck, I don't even think that the Farr 40 class has a distance racing rule like 'sign up your friends at $25 each, and we'll give them a tee-shirt and let them drive....'. I feel like the 36.7 class is just trying to pimp me for some more bread.

DG

Wow - the same words have come out of my mouth many, many times concerning the 36.7's as well.

So, maybe they are similar in most points of sail after all.

Who knows.

DG

The 109 is limited to a #3 and one small kite for OD racing.

yup...the J109 OD sails underpower the boat in a BIG way. i think if they were sailed with a full inventory of PHRF sails (including a JT reacher), they may be able to close reach pretty well. That said, the OD config with a AP#3 and a SMALL AP kite makes close reaching not so much fun.

The 109 cost how much? They are limited to a #3 and a small chute - That makes no sense.

Then they wouldn't be OD- But in some areas that's what they have- One-here, one-there setup so phrf might not be too bad.

I find it hard to believe they only carried #3's. We sailed with them for the first few miles of light air beating, and they seemed right quick to us (I was on the J120 Perseverance). I can't remember for sure, but I am sure they had overlapping genoas up. On top of that, they seemed to arrive at the island pretty quickly after we did.

And to think people continue to shell out 75K more for a 109

I don't understand the headsail (aside from cost savings) .. UK J109 OD is with a #1 set at about 135/140% .. the boat goes very well in light/medium conditions with that sail which sheets close to center line due to narrow shroud base

108/110 sq mtr kite is fine I think

In terms of J120/J109 comparisons look at last years Cowes Week (Class J-1) or this years event which starts Saturday .. 120's don't gt much of a look in

I agree with Dickie on the 36.7 sail inventory .. should be allowed asym kites and JT's if you choose - they are great offshore sails

What about the 105's - if it were mostly reaching I would have thought the 105's would have featured better (I noted the relative handicaps of the 36.7 to the 105 would be more favourable under IRC I think)

The 109 class sails are very limiting. When you are racing OD who cares what sail you are using as long as everyone is the same. I like to make the boat go fast so we have our 109 set up for PHRF racing and carry a full compliment of sails.

The issue, of course, being that if your class sails one-design rules (e.g., Bene 36.7, J105) amidst a slew of divisions sailing under non-one-design rules, the one-design boats will be at a potential disadvantage.

It is interesting that in the Mac, the J109s were sailing in Section 4, so it would seem odd that they carried a restricted sail inventory.

In contrast, one Bene 36.7 elected to not sail in the one-design class in part so they could use the full inventory. The finshed corrected in 42:42:36 versus the top one-design Bene 36.7 that finished corrected in 41:43:36--almost 1 hour faster. Maybe carrying a one-design inventory forces sailors to sharpen their skills to compensate for a perceived equipment disadvantage.

Intersting stuff.

Hrothgar

Look at these results:

J109 - 6:28:36
B367 - 7:17:49

http://www.xyztestsite.com/2005/050703stra...005-results.htm


Both the J109 and the Ben 36.7 used full sail inventory. The race was a tight reach most of the way (45 nm).

Great 3rd post, only two minor problems: this thread is about Chi-Mac and the scoring system is IRC not phrf, otherwise really insightful.

What the hell is up with these PHRF ratings. If the B 36.7's that I know had a rating of 81 they would win every race. 63 is a little harsh for the 109.

Actually, the Chi-Mac utilized Americap scoring you self-righteous cunt

You're gonna fit right in, Welcome.

welcome to the fringe wingnut.

A full sail inventory comparison between the two boats set up in the OD format is a comparison I wouldn't even wipe my ass with. Let's see the "full sail inventory" of a OD J109 has three sails. the 36.7 has 2 headsails, 2 kites, a main. Seems like the 36.7 should be able to use a better choice of sails for close reaching in breeze.

A full OD setup for the 36.7 gives many more options, bigger headsails, and 2 kites. That's more like comparing AC/DC to Barry White.

If both boats have the same sail inventory (i.e. JT1, JT2, LT, MD, HVY, Blade, #4, Main and 4 Kites) than maybe you may be able to make some sense without pulling your ass over your eyes. the performance cannot be compared.

I tend to think the J109 would smoke a 36.7 on a close reach with a JT1 or well trimmed Genoa, but that is not the point. apples to apples pal.

J/109 looks pretty nice reaching along in this photo:

http://www.jboats.com/

although I don't know if that is the class spinnaker flying, though I'd guess it is. In that amount of breeze there are no problems powering her up.

The original post in this thread stated "I thought this was a reaching dream for the 109's" and showed surprise that a B 36.7 beat the J109s

My point was that on a reach over any distance a well sailed J109 will typically beat a Beneteau 36.7 regardless of the handicap system if the J109 is NOT restricted to OD sails (#3, main, small spi). ie, the 109 is better suited to those conditions than the 36.7. I've raced on both boats, like tham both - but they are very different animals

Old Skool - Can you please tell me where I was comparing two different boats in OD set up? Full sail inventory for a J109 means #1, #2, #3, jumbo spi, small spi and possibly a code zero. I admit I'm not as smart as you and jdouche but WTF?

the whole thread has been about OD sails. you said that "full sail inventory" thing. WTF. the full sail inventory varies between the boats greatly depending on setup. Qualify your words before you get flamed next time.

Hey "No Quarter"

How do you have any knowledge of what the inventories were on these two boats in that race?

It's all about downwind angles on a race like this. Roth- but you are on to something. Good observation...

Double correction the Chi-MAC is about ACP II not IRC-

Jimbo .. how much of the race was close kite reaching vs white sail ? How much deeper downwind ?

In a distance race, strategy and crew level of intensity over the course of the whole race play bigger parts and may easily offset potential boat speed advantages. Might be more interesting to see what the average finish was for the all the 36.7s vs. the average finish for the 109s. That would take some of the crew/strategy variable out of the equation, though with only 3 109s as a sample size vs. 11 36.7s that data can be misleading anyway...

I wasn't there, I have no idea.