If you knew how to read properly, you'd be able to see the relevance.
Someone posted that skiffs get outdated too easily. Other people then said that older Lasers and "all so called One Design classes" were not racing boats, so I tried to show that they were.
Pretty simple for anyone with comprehension skills above primary level.
Full Version: Would the 18' skiff survive ?
QUOTE (Chris 249 @ May 28 2008, 10:38 AM) 
If you knew how to read properly, you'd be able to see the relevance.
Someone posted that skiffs get outdated too easily. Other people then said that older Lasers and "all so called One Design classes" were not racing boats, so I tried to show that they were.
Pretty simple for anyone with comprehension skills above primary level.
Someone posted that skiffs get outdated too easily. Other people then said that older Lasers and "all so called One Design classes" were not racing boats, so I tried to show that they were.
Pretty simple for anyone with comprehension skills above primary level.
sorry you are right. i reread your post and now understand how posting the results of the a 2006 Taser interclub would be relevent to the 18' class.
Thanks,
Tinga.
Just for you Tinga 
QUOTE (Chris 249 @ May 26 2008, 12:45 AM)
A 10 year old Laser is still quite competitive, and it can beat more sailors than a 10 year old boat in most (or all) development classes.
Dunno about that Chris... I think you're over egging that a bit. Globally a lot of development classes are in a fairly stable rule space, and ten year old boats can be pretty damn competitive. And because (like the much mentioned 505s) there's a tendency to build boats out of very high quality materials, the structural life of the hulls can be very long. Of course when a class does have a major innovation (or changes the rules, which happens too often IMHO) then, yes the turnover can be pretty fast. In the UK Cherubs Merlins and National 12s all have 10 year old hull designs at or about the top of the fleet, even though in the case of the Cherub everything from about six inches above the chines has changed completely. Ten year old ICs are perfectly competitive, although of course there will now be a lot of change until the right corners of the new rule set are defined.
What happens in every class of course is that the best sailors change their boats frequently. It saves hassle on maintenance of course: somehow it never feels right to throw away all the blocks and ropes every couple of years when they get a bit tired, but it would sure make a difference in how the boat felt if you did... Instead folk tend to wait until things are obviously shagged, at which time they've been sapping a bit of performance out of you and the boat for months or years...
What I meant (and didn't express well) was a reflection on the fact that SMODs tend to have much bigger fleets than development classes. Take the top Lasers (Radial and big rig) over 10 years old here; they were in the top 10 of their state titles (scoring 1 overall heat win in big rigs, and taking the Apprentice title in Radials), so there were more boats that they beat, than started in the titles of most other classes. But because they were 9th or 10th out of about 50 (ignoring the 100-200 boats that didn't turn up but still race at clubs), people ignore them. If old boats finish 5th from 25 (ie most of the local fleet) in other classes, they're used as evidence how well old boats last.
I don't think I've put up posts saying how fast development classes get outdated, because like you say it's not a major problem for most. However, the "all ODs get slow" line just isn't right.
I don't think I've put up posts saying how fast development classes get outdated, because like you say it's not a major problem for most. However, the "all ODs get slow" line just isn't right.
Wow, this thread has gone off track.
That all makes sense Chris except I would add the word successful before SMOD.
To the detriment of our sport there are too many SMOD hopefulls out there which either have needed frequent upgrades for structural or popularity reasons and consequently the 10 YO boats are crap (49ers?, B14)
or those which die as a class in a short time leaving fragmented pockets of crap boats cluttering up the boat parks (Some of the RS series I undertand?)
You have rightly pointed out that this happens with Dev classes but we should appreciate it also happens with all except a few highly successful SMODS. (Laser, Taser, Hobies, any more?)
To the detriment of our sport there are too many SMOD hopefulls out there which either have needed frequent upgrades for structural or popularity reasons and consequently the 10 YO boats are crap (49ers?, B14)
or those which die as a class in a short time leaving fragmented pockets of crap boats cluttering up the boat parks (Some of the RS series I undertand?)
You have rightly pointed out that this happens with Dev classes but we should appreciate it also happens with all except a few highly successful SMODS. (Laser, Taser, Hobies, any more?)
B14 and 49er are not SMOD.
B14 has two builders and has multiple sailmakers.
49er has four licenced builders, three of which are active.
A 10 year old Laser is still competitive, my boat 66962 is more than 10 years old and is quite used to winning club races, the sail and mast are obvioulsy not as old.
In the B14 event this weekend there were no new boats most + 5 years old.
This is an 18' thread so don't know what all this has to do with it?
My old 18' which was the old Omega Smeg out of Aus, then became 'Specialized Marine' and more laterly 'Baron and Smethers' is still competitive and must be 12 years old.
B14 has two builders and has multiple sailmakers.
49er has four licenced builders, three of which are active.
A 10 year old Laser is still competitive, my boat 66962 is more than 10 years old and is quite used to winning club races, the sail and mast are obvioulsy not as old.
In the B14 event this weekend there were no new boats most + 5 years old.
This is an 18' thread so don't know what all this has to do with it?
My old 18' which was the old Omega Smeg out of Aus, then became 'Specialized Marine' and more laterly 'Baron and Smethers' is still competitive and must be 12 years old.
QUOTE (Christ @ May 29 2008, 02:30 AM)
B14 and 49er are not SMOD.
B14 has two builders and has multiple sailmakers.
49er has four licenced builders, three of which are active.
A 10 year old Laser is still competitive, my boat 66962 is more than 10 years old and is quite used to winning club races, the sail and mast are obvioulsy not as old.
In the B14 event this weekend there were no new boats most + 5 years old.
This is an 18' thread so don't know what all this has to do with it?
My old 18' which was the old Omega Smeg out of Aus, then became 'Specialized Marine' and more laterly 'Baron and Smethers' is still competitive and must be 12 years old.
B14 has two builders and has multiple sailmakers.
49er has four licenced builders, three of which are active.
A 10 year old Laser is still competitive, my boat 66962 is more than 10 years old and is quite used to winning club races, the sail and mast are obvioulsy not as old.
In the B14 event this weekend there were no new boats most + 5 years old.
This is an 18' thread so don't know what all this has to do with it?
My old 18' which was the old Omega Smeg out of Aus, then became 'Specialized Marine' and more laterly 'Baron and Smethers' is still competitive and must be 12 years old.
If you want to count builders, then a Laser isn't a SMOD either. There are several world wide. The 49er could be thought of as being a SMOD because the molds have been pulled from the same plug(s) and the construction is tightly controlled by the licensensing agreements. Same as with Lasers.
As for the longevity of the Laser, it depends too much on how well an individual boat was built. I've seen boats fall apart in a year but then I had one that served me well, except for the deck, for about five years of very hard use. Though there are some old boats that fair well over the years, on balance, I've found the general quality of the boats to be suspect at best. Still not as bad as the reputation for the 470. Now there is a boat that starts out fast and tires at the end of the season.
I don't know the longevity of the 18's hulls but the rigs and sails are outdated each year due to new developements. Last season with Color 7 using several different sails and finishing up with the bat wing tip and a stiffer mast is one example. I imagine the hulls are pretty solid to hold the rig tension needed. I'd imagine the hulls are degraded more by collisions and crashes than by the rig pulling the boat apart.
Successful SMODs are generally more popular because they are lower priced, produced in larger quantities, and marketed by the builder. Developement classes don't lend themselves to this model well because it is what the owners do to the boats once the play with them that makes them change.
In the end, sail what you love to sail and you'll love to go sailing.
Are you sure the rig tensions aren't pulling the 18s apart?
Sorta has the old Nokia in Ottawa, the rig tensions on that are ridiculous. Let's just say that unless I'm the one tightening the boat bender to attach the forestay, I try not standing anywhere near it. You can see the boat actually bend a few cms. I know it's an old boat, but the fact that I can see it flex with tension tells me that it's been ripped apart by the tensions.
Sorta has the old Nokia in Ottawa, the rig tensions on that are ridiculous. Let's just say that unless I'm the one tightening the boat bender to attach the forestay, I try not standing anywhere near it. You can see the boat actually bend a few cms. I know it's an old boat, but the fact that I can see it flex with tension tells me that it's been ripped apart by the tensions.
QUOTE (Matt D @ May 29 2008, 08:47 AM)
Are you sure the rig tensions aren't pulling the 18s apart?
Sorta has the old Nokia in Ottawa, the rig tensions on that are ridiculous. Let's just say that unless I'm the one tightening the boat bender to attach the forestay, I try not standing anywhere near it. You can see the boat actually bend a few cms. I know it's an old boat, but the fact that I can see it flex with tension tells me that it's been ripped apart by the tensions.
Sorta has the old Nokia in Ottawa, the rig tensions on that are ridiculous. Let's just say that unless I'm the one tightening the boat bender to attach the forestay, I try not standing anywhere near it. You can see the boat actually bend a few cms. I know it's an old boat, but the fact that I can see it flex with tension tells me that it's been ripped apart by the tensions.
As I said I wasn't sure but I would have expected the boats to be strong enough to hold tension because it is so crucial. Older boats spit out of the squadies are probably spit out because they no longer hold tension. The hard part is to build a boat very light but strong enough to withstand several thousands of pounds of pressure driving the mast through the boat. That is one reason the 18's are so farking heavy.
I wonder how much more an 18 hull would cost if you were to build one that would hold up for years. One problem in a development class is that if you do so, the boat still might be outdated in a couple of years due to changes in hull shape so why build a hull that will hold up for 10 years or more. I don't know if you can judge the current state of the boat by an old hull.
Cost of new hulls and rigs is one of the reasons for the OD rules in 18's. I don't think highly developemental classes fit a model for longevity due to pending changes. These classes are for people with time and money to tinker and experiment. It is great for the rest of us that they do so and we can absorb their good work after it has been proven.
Finally, back on topic and some interesting discussion points on the 18's. First off, the class isn't a strict OD. It currently has an OD hull for major events and for sailing at the League, but I believe that in Europe they are still racing older designs.
WRT the rigs, it is worth considering that the mast development done by both CST and Southern is the first such development for a number of years. However, sail development has always gone on and just like in any class, OD or otherwise, the top guys get new sails every year and these are normally an advance on what went before.
As far as the hull life is concerned, this really is a thorny issue. One of the biggest problems has been that there are very few who can build the boats well. It is only recently that the boats have been built really well by a top class builder so we have no idea how long these new hulls will last. The previous hulls do not last, mainly due to very average build quality. There have been attempts made to strengthen some of the worst effected boats, but IMO, anything older than 4 years isn't going to be stiff enough. Maybe the boat Christ refers to is an exception (there are a few of these) but a 12 year old boat is simply not going to be strong enough any more.
I have a feeling that the new Van Munster boats will last a lot longer than any previous generation of hulls. Although built to the same spec, they are built to a far higher quality of finish and are properly assembled. It was not uncommon for the mast step on older boats not to be properly supported on the bulkhead below and that certainly won't be happening now. Hopefully, this will help keep costs down.
WRT the rigs, it is worth considering that the mast development done by both CST and Southern is the first such development for a number of years. However, sail development has always gone on and just like in any class, OD or otherwise, the top guys get new sails every year and these are normally an advance on what went before.
As far as the hull life is concerned, this really is a thorny issue. One of the biggest problems has been that there are very few who can build the boats well. It is only recently that the boats have been built really well by a top class builder so we have no idea how long these new hulls will last. The previous hulls do not last, mainly due to very average build quality. There have been attempts made to strengthen some of the worst effected boats, but IMO, anything older than 4 years isn't going to be stiff enough. Maybe the boat Christ refers to is an exception (there are a few of these) but a 12 year old boat is simply not going to be strong enough any more.
I have a feeling that the new Van Munster boats will last a lot longer than any previous generation of hulls. Although built to the same spec, they are built to a far higher quality of finish and are properly assembled. It was not uncommon for the mast step on older boats not to be properly supported on the bulkhead below and that certainly won't be happening now. Hopefully, this will help keep costs down.
Just a point on the Van Munster boats, and how the class is going.
There is currently 8 orders for new 18's with van munster, so the class is obviously still getting a bit of money to be pumping the new boats out.
So who's getting a new boat?
There is currently 8 orders for new 18's with van munster, so the class is obviously still getting a bit of money to be pumping the new boats out.
So who's getting a new boat?
QUOTE (teamsharkface @ May 30 2008, 10:55 AM)
Just a point on the Van Munster boats, and how the class is going.
There is currently 8 orders for new 18's with van munster, so the class is obviously still getting a bit of money to be pumping the new boats out.
So who's getting a new boat?
There is currently 8 orders for new 18's with van munster, so the class is obviously still getting a bit of money to be pumping the new boats out.
So who's getting a new boat?
8! That is a bit of a change from what Woody told me 2 weeks ago. At that time, the following were definate
Howie (USA)
Rag
7/Southern Cross Construction (complicated story!!)
Ian Budgen (UK but will sail the season at the League)
Probable
DeLonghi
and possible
Herman Winning with a new sponsor
That is all I know about. None of the new boats are being paid for by the club and the three "replacement" hulls are having their kit transfered over from the old hull, thus keeping down costs.
I woulod love to know who else is getting a boat!
QUOTE (SimonN @ May 30 2008, 06:46 AM)
I woulod love to know who else is getting a boat!
A second mould will be ship back to Ovington in UK, and from what I know, about 4 teams have interest to order hull there (cheaper than in Aus).
NB: Simon you are right, we have both B18 (various version) and League boat in Europe ... we did the inventory yesterday for Don Roach 37 Murray, 15 B18
QUOTE (SimonN @ May 30 2008, 02:46 PM)
None of the new boats are being paid for by the club
it's (the sponsorship) is through the club though, right ? there is a connection ?
as kinda explained in a previous post of yours
QUOTE (TeamFugu @ May 30 2008, 01:55 AM)
As I said I wasn't sure but I would have expected the boats to be strong enough to hold tension because it is so crucial. Older boats spit out of the squadies are probably spit out because they no longer hold tension. The hard part is to build a boat very light but strong enough to withstand several thousands of pounds of pressure driving the mast through the boat. That is one reason the 18's are so farking heavy.
I wonder how much more an 18 hull would cost if you were to build one that would hold up for years. One problem in a development class is that if you do so, the boat still might be outdated in a couple of years due to changes in hull shape so why build a hull that will hold up for 10 years or more. I don't know if you can judge the current state of the boat by an old hull.
Cost of new hulls and rigs is one of the reasons for the OD rules in 18's. I don't think highly developemental classes fit a model for longevity due to pending changes. These classes are for people with time and money to tinker and experiment. It is great for the rest of us that they do so and we can absorb their good work after it has been proven.
I wonder how much more an 18 hull would cost if you were to build one that would hold up for years. One problem in a development class is that if you do so, the boat still might be outdated in a couple of years due to changes in hull shape so why build a hull that will hold up for 10 years or more. I don't know if you can judge the current state of the boat by an old hull.
Cost of new hulls and rigs is one of the reasons for the OD rules in 18's. I don't think highly developemental classes fit a model for longevity due to pending changes. These classes are for people with time and money to tinker and experiment. It is great for the rest of us that they do so and we can absorb their good work after it has been proven.
So the 18s are "so farking heavy" are you in fairy land buddy?
The hull weight of an 18 is around 80 kgs... about the same as the shit piles 29er and 49er hull weight... what would you suggest the 18 guys go to? they do have more than double the sail area of most dinghies and hold massive rig tensions and get belted over waves at 20 plus knots, let alone the leverage created from the wings... all of which is trying to turn the boat inside out... So 80 kgs is heavy hey? 170kgs fully rigged with blades! U know the 18 rule "if you cant lift it you cant sail it"
QUOTE (ljf67 @ Jun 1 2008, 12:34 PM)
So the 18s are "so farking heavy" are you in fairy land buddy?
The hull weight of an 18 is around 80 kgs... about the same as the shit piles 29er and 49er hull weight... what would you suggest the 18 guys go to? they do have more than double the sail area of most dinghies and hold massive rig tensions and get belted over waves at 20 plus knots, let alone the leverage created from the wings... all of which is trying to turn the boat inside out... So 80 kgs is heavy hey? 170kgs fully rigged with blades! U know the 18 rule "if you cant lift it you cant sail it"
The hull weight of an 18 is around 80 kgs... about the same as the shit piles 29er and 49er hull weight... what would you suggest the 18 guys go to? they do have more than double the sail area of most dinghies and hold massive rig tensions and get belted over waves at 20 plus knots, let alone the leverage created from the wings... all of which is trying to turn the boat inside out... So 80 kgs is heavy hey? 170kgs fully rigged with blades! U know the 18 rule "if you cant lift it you cant sail it"
In this post and the thread that goes with it the various weights of the boats compared to their length cubed is discussed.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...st&p=541881
QUOTE (nobody @ Jun 1 2008, 01:45 PM)
In this post and the thread that goes with it the various weights of the boats compared to their length cubed is discussed.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...st&p=541881
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...st&p=541881
Gee thanx, and what does all that have to do with the price of cheese... at the end of the day all these boats are very different animals, theres not a lot of point comparing apples to oranges
What does any of this have to do with... Would the 18 skiff survive
QUOTE (ljf67 @ Jun 1 2008, 02:17 PM)
Gee thanx, and what does all that have to do with the price of cheese... at the end of the day all these boats are very different animals, theres not a lot of point comparing apples to oranges
What does any of this have to do with... Would the 18 skiff survive
What does any of this have to do with... Would the 18 skiff survive
The price of cheese is invariant with the weight of a skiff. It was an attempt to try to put some numbers into the argument about the weight of an 18 instead of telling people they are in fairy land.
I am agreeing with your claim in the previous post, dimwit. The conclusion coming from the numbers in the other post is that for its length an 18 in not heavy. If it were scaled to the size of any of the other boats mentioned it would be lighter. They are heavy but not heavy for their length.
18's attract some of the nicest and most highly skilled sailors. They also attract some of the most ignorant and closed minded. You are an example of this!!! The question is can the 18's survive these people?
Nobody
QUOTE (nobody @ Jun 1 2008, 03:25 PM)
The price of cheese is invariant with the weight of a skiff. It was an attempt to try to put some numbers into the argument about the weight of an 18 instead of telling people they are in fairy land.
I am agreeing with your claim in the previous post, dimwit. The conclusion coming from the numbers in the other post is that for its length an 18 in not heavy. If it were scaled to the size of any of the other boats mentioned it would be lighter. They are heavy but not heavy for their length.
18's attract some of the nicest and most highly skilled sailors. They also attract some of the most ignorant and closed minded. You are an example of this!!! The question is can the 18's survive these people?
Nobody
I am agreeing with your claim in the previous post, dimwit. The conclusion coming from the numbers in the other post is that for its length an 18 in not heavy. If it were scaled to the size of any of the other boats mentioned it would be lighter. They are heavy but not heavy for their length.
18's attract some of the nicest and most highly skilled sailors. They also attract some of the most ignorant and closed minded. You are an example of this!!! The question is can the 18's survive these people?
Nobody
Ignorant and close minded... yep thats me buddy. Your post isnt really saying anything either way. Oh I forgot dimwit... so what does that make you buddy... Einstein. I guess you must be one of the nicest and most highly skilled 18 sailors
Why does everything need to be put into some fancy useless meaning formula to convince stupid people, DL does enough of that on DA... look where thats gets him surely its easier and simpler to just look at hull weights, its not rocket science to see that if the hull weight of an 18 is similar to a 49er or 29er or 30 odd kgs less than a 470 then its a very lite machine for its power and speed... you just cant educate stupid peopleSo your question is... can the 18s survive stupid people... think its been doing this for about 70 years so far
This thread has become stupid, its off the topic and it should die...
BTW calling other peoples boats "shitpiles" won't win you any friends!
Will the 18 foot skiff survive? I'm sure it will, it has survived some pretty bad stuff (e.g. WW2) and will probably be around for for many years to come.
BTW calling other peoples boats "shitpiles" won't win you any friends!
Will the 18 foot skiff survive? I'm sure it will, it has survived some pretty bad stuff (e.g. WW2) and will probably be around for for many years to come.
QUOTE (K_B @ Jun 1 2008, 05:13 PM)
This thread has become stupid, its off the topic and it should die...
BTW calling other peoples boats "shitpiles" won't win you any friends!
Will the 18 foot skiff survive? I'm sure it will, it has survived some pretty bad stuff (e.g. WW2) and will probably be around for for many years to come.
BTW calling other peoples boats "shitpiles" won't win you any friends!
Will the 18 foot skiff survive? I'm sure it will, it has survived some pretty bad stuff (e.g. WW2) and will probably be around for for many years to come.
Totally agree with you KB
But its not about winning friends, its about educating people what boats are "true" lite weights and what are not
BTW calling 18s "farking heavy" also is not going to help make the 18s survive, thats all I was trying to achieve, sorry if it was a little heavy handed
QUOTE (ljf67 @ Jun 1 2008, 05:27 PM)
Totally agree with you KB
But its not about winning friends, its about educating people what boats are "true" lite weights and what are not
BTW calling 18s "farking heavy" also is not going to help make the 18s survive, thats all I was trying to achieve, sorry if it was a little heavy handed
But its not about winning friends, its about educating people what boats are "true" lite weights and what are not
BTW calling 18s "farking heavy" also is not going to help make the 18s survive, thats all I was trying to achieve, sorry if it was a little heavy handed
I agree, In absolute terms: they are heavy. In relative terms: they are rather light (given what is asked of the hulls).
I think that the 18's will survive for the same reason that F1 and AC survive. There are some people that want to compete against each other in extreme machines. There are others that seek to be better than the rest, they do that by being the best at sailing the most difficult-to-sail boats. It is all about the challenge!
If it were all about money, F1 and AC would have never got off the ground or have lasted as long as they have.
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