During my gardening session of the week-end, I started to ask myself about the future of the 18' skiff... no question of one design or whatever, just a simple question came to my mind : would the 18' survive during the next years ? Here are some points of my thinking and perhaps some point to start a discussion.

The 18' is an expensive boat. Today a ready to sail boat is costing around 90'000 AUD and then you will need to replace the 2 set of sails on a regular basis (let say each 2 years). A set of sails is about 8000 AUD ... then you have to add some $$ for replacing broken stuffs, rope, blocks ... making a nice yearly bill at the end. Hopefully the latest hull will length longer that the previous one

This bring me to the fact that, for a team with a normal revenue, the only way to sail an 18' is to find sponsors. In Australia, the rule of the game are a little bit different, with the Double Bay clube (the League) offering "for free" boats to the teams, with the money coming out from the gambling machine of the club's casino. During the last year, the League was selling its "old" boats to Europe, US and NZ for about 40-50% of the price of a new boat, offering a good cheaper solution to start in the class, but even with that, sponsors were requiered to keep the boat up to date. Today, nobody could say until when the League will be able to offer these boats (the law about gambling has changed in Australian and the income from gambling machine has droped).

If finding a sponsor for these boats was quite easy in the 90s, when sailing such boats was really new and unusual, bringing a lot of media coverage, it is now much more difficult. In Europe, there was 2 circuit where everything was offer to the sailors (the SLAM GP and the Skiff Pro Tour). Today, the top teams can manage to find some money, but for the other, it is really hard.

The fact is that, today, the 18' is not the only specatular boat, the speed difference with other boats are not so much anymore (thinking to moth or ...) and this make the visibility of the 18' in the media decreasing, and then the class less attractive for the sponsors. Sponsors are looking for spectacular stuffs and high media coverage : look how much media coverage T. Jundt got when foiling his 18' ! I'm not sure he's faster, but this is more spectacular and unusual. Thomas easily found some sponsors and now, even find one to build a completely new boat.

It will perhaps even become worst if the 18' start to be slower than another boat ... ask an 18' sailor which speed data he put in his press book for sponsors : data from the GP time ...

That's it so now, I ask the question again : Will the 18' skiff survive ? or will the 18' survive without a major evolution ?

The 18 racing videos are still great to watch. Compare them to AC yachts or Olyimpic racing and they are still in a different leage in terms of spectator apeal.

I hope they survive as they are a much better spectator representaion of the hi performance end of our sport than anything else I have seen but I do not have a TV, so I may be out of touch.

Yes.

Not if it doesn't start foiling.

The 18s will survive because they are iconic. But things like how they are paid for, will have to change.

As stated they are propped up by gambling revenue from only one venue, which happens to be in one of Australia's richest areas, so maybe that revenue will be sustained even with law changes. But the culture of sailors getting good free sailing on the back of ripping money out of suckers is a bit dubious. As well I can not see the sponsors getting commercial value to the full cost of these boats with the possible exception of only one or two star boats. They do have a few benevolent sponsors who just love the boats. So will the sailors have to pay their way? Not the current group anyway.

In parallel we in NSW also have 16ft skiffs which have always been a much bigger class than the 18s with a lot of clubs again with pokie machines funding free sailing. This class is shrinking, there are now two big clubs and maybe 4 or 5 smaller ones which are struggling financially, not offering the deals and money to sailors and consequently losing their fleet sizes. These clubs are not all in affluent suburbs and pokie revenue has plumetted. The class is changing as a result.

Consequently the spread of 16s is shrinking and they are more likely under threat than the 18s. But it is an indicator of iminent change.

doug you have no idea about skiff sailing in aus. the 18's have been around for more than a century and they will be around for a very long time to come.

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My mirror image has already spoken quite eloquently(for one so ignorant) but I think the new "18" foiler about to be unveiled by Thomas Jundt-skinny hull similar to a Moth- with extraordinary ratios(almost identical to a Moth) will revolutionize 18 sailing and/ or spark a whole new much faster and more spectacular 18 class bringing the 18 back to its place as the fastest BOAT under 20'. Yes, it is a damn revolution-get used to it!

Foiling would ruin these boats and make it even more of a crash and burn sport than it used to be. In the 90's the boats got really wide and tacking became more hazardous therefore the boats would just bang the corners and you wouldnt get tacking duels which is what is great about AC. - read Adrainne Cahlan's book around the buoys (shit book but good run down of the 18's in thre 90's).

The current boats are not as wide and they have tactical beats.

As for the sponsorship I think that if they can maintain TV coverage then it should all be sweet (Adelaide showed couple of races ~11am Saturday channel 7). One probelm is the way that the sydney hobart tv coverage has gone and that it focusing on the lead boats only. Yes thats great for those sponsors but a bit of coverage of the middle fleet boats would result in those sponsors getting enough Tv coverage to make sponsorship appealing for those companies.

sponsopship in dinghy sailing is a difficult topic because i dont think sponsors ever really get any value from it. Most dinghy sponsorship is the result of an individual at the company having an interest in sailing and hence wanting to support it. Dinghy has very low media coverage outside of the sailing community and as such low audience in terms of value for marketing $$$$.

Therefore if 18 sailing is to rely on sponsorship to survive i dont think in the long term it will. However i think 18 sailing will continue without huge sponsorship deals. Look at the UK the money from sponsors i relatively low and yet the fleet keeps going (even if it is a relatively small fleet by AUS standards).

18s have been around for a long, long time and they will be around for a lot longer than any of us.

As for Doug....I guess you have never sailed an 18 in 20+ knots with big swell. You really have no idea what you are talking about......

You have no idea what you speak of. Foling is the revolution™. Bring on the people's foiling 18 ™.

I am one sexy bitch!

Freak and strange come to mind....................................

According to doug, the 18 is coming 2nd as the fastest skiff under 20ft even in 18knts and BIG swell.

back on the topic. I used to love watching the 18's on the weekend on tv, even when they used to "bleep" out the language used. This was before I stepped foot on a boat.

You didn't have to be a sailing fan to appreciate the boats they are. Like anything, the more expensive these sports become the more exposure they need to keep the cash generated for the up keep.

I heared the 18's were on the box last Saturday, I hope it becomes a regular thing, but Sunday would be better as I sail on Saturday.

irrefutable evidence that doug really does have split personalities......

Doug is gunna have so many bragging rights if foiling 18s take off... I wonder if that american sailing luege (dunno how to spell it) will last long? I hope it does, the they make an Aussie sailing luege to.

Even without foiling, the 18's will survive! The real issue that Patrick raises is the disparity between the 18's in Oz and the rest of the world. I have little doubt that despite a big drop off in "pokie" (slot machine) revenues, the League will keep going from strength to strength. A lot of that is down to the hard work of a few, not least Woody.

Just a couple of points. Contrary to popular belief, not all people at the League sail for free. In fact, there are a fair number that I know of who last season used their own money to fund their sailing. At least one person "co-sponsored" his boat and I know people who bought new masts and sails themselves. I suspect we will see more of that as well. For instance, last year we bought a new No1 kite and when somebody else asked why we got gear and they didn't, I explained that it was my own money. They then said that they wished they had thought of doing the same!

However, the bottom line is that 18's are a very expensive class and there aren't the big money sposors around like was seen in the past. I don't think we will see that sort of era again. The league ahs some good sponsors who will stay with the class but each year they still have to find new money. I think that last year 2 new sponsors were found. It is interesting to note that some of the league sponsors really do get very involved with the whole scene. One of the sponsors laid on a day of corporate hospitality for it's clients, based around the 18's, that saw clients being taken out for rides in the 18's. On other occasions, the ferry boat has been packed with sponsors and clients, who also use the club for meals and the like to enhance the whole experience. These sponsors really do feel involved and that they get something out of it.

It would be hard to replicate that in europe. The sponsors are paying not only for the publicity but for the involvement. When you see a load of people being entertained by Smeg, all having a meal after the racing, and hearing them cheer at the prize giving, you realise how important it ios to get the sponsors totally involved. The sponsor of Kinder Caring is there almost every race and loves the whole experience. So, to me, the leason is that one should think outside the box - spionsorship doesn't need to be about getting publicity.

For the 18's to survive, they do need to eveolve but not in the sense of the boats. There needs to be better and more imaginative ideas for getting sponsors invlved and keeping their interest. making the boats more exciting, faster or more televisual won't help.

The other problem is harder to solve. A lack of second hand boats doesn't help the class expand and the newer boats seem to be lasting longer, meaning the League aren't building as many as they were. Some of it is also because of having less money from the pokies. However, it does mean that a supply of second hand boats has dried up. The other issue is that having recently done the sums myself, I think it is probably cheaper to get a new hull and transfer over rigs and other equipment, rather than having everything new and selling the old boat off. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to this problem.

I think you tackle the right points Simon ... the australian model is not really replicable in Europe. We had something similar during the Skiff Pro Tour years, but it was not sustainable.

We will have again a mould in Europe for building new boat, but even if we know that we could build the hull for less than in Oz, it will still remain expensive ...

=> this is exactly when I started to ask myself the question of this topic


NB: It was not a pro/con foil topic. I just mentioned it to explain my thinking

If Doug Lord leaves them alone they will be fine.

90k for a boat is expensive as with the associated running costs....... Howevere, if necessary, split 3 ways between 3 committed crew and it is still very doable. Personal sponnsors can also be sought to help offset the expenses.

These things are awsome to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxRgaJJ86_8

Someone just needs the vision to make it work and the Aussie 18ft league seam to be the guys that have done that. Unfortunately IASF who have the resouses for such specticals are really more interested in Finns! This I find this so outragous and short sighted. So lets ignore the Olympics (except the one hi performance class maybe) and lets make the real hi-performacne sailing events where it is at. If we stop consuming shit maybe we will make it easier for someone with real content to capture the audiance. Or maybe the bordom around Olyimpic sailing will put everyone off sailing coverage.

Making the 18ft skiffs more affordable would of course help to get a amature fleet established which I suspect you need to support and develop a Pro fleet. However banning carbon and initiatives like that do not really help in my opinion. Reducing travel makes things a lot cheaper. It is easy to caluclate the cost of a boat but the cost of a circuit campain including travel must be horrendous. Reducing the number of rigs would help too, but how can you do this without compromising the boats.

If I was a Media Mogal I would pick somewhere like Garda in Italy and set up a fleet there. I would get a TV companies on board and have loads of Internet coverage on my site to suck in all the bored sailors at work. Head cams with swearring and shouting. Website subcription to members only extra content. Spectator boats and a beach party. Sponsership and boat ownership would be centralised so that sailors do not have to waste time doing what they are not always good at and negosiate with sponsers all the time. Feed the press with media releases to get the sponsors good value for money. Have a ride experiance days for coropate days out and ritch thrill seackers. A big yearly event where it is Nothern fleet verses Southen fleet, like a battle of the hemiphierars.... and then sell the whole circus for a huge profit before it all goes bust... ;-)

Great idea!grand prix sailing has a nice ring to it

Not sure if you are taking the piss because this has been done before, but it has been done before in Autrailia called the Grand Prix I think. I think we need a history lesson from some Aussie Skif sailors about why this worked or did not work out long term...?

Yes,sorry i was.As for a history lesson,i shall wait now for the baron or his new alter ego to give you that he is the lord of the 18s.

From some other threads it look like the 16ft skiffs also has bussininess model issues to work out.

What amazes me is how the AC can generate so much cash and there are no shortage of teams ready to take part. AC yachts are no where near as dynamic to watch as 18s in my opinion. The AC management is terible allowing the distrcutive court battles so who can they do it and hi-performance dinghies can not. ISAF have a change to put on an awsome sailing event but they wasted the chance again.

There was also the Ultra 30s in the UK which looked good for a while but that faded out. However again I do not know the histroy behind that.

Surely it can not be that hard, or are we better off haveing fun with our affordable hi-performance toys and without the hype of Grand Prix circusses?

Its all about money for the AC. These are big boy toys for only the very rich. I think one thing that might help the 18's and dinghys in general would be to find some bad boy rocker that loves things a little wild and get them hooked on sailing. Most of us don't qualify but if you could find someone like a Becham or a Tony Hawk to get it started then you might be able to get more of a following. The boats alone won't do it. They are far too technical for the average Joe to understand but if you could get personalities going and do a little education on how sailboat racing works, you might be able to get some place.

I wish there were a way to get 18's more wide spread in the states but the cost is a huge barior. Maybe it could be the next reality TV show. The cost of an 18 campaign is minimal compared to some of the shows. You could have everyone with helmet cams and a lot of candid shots from the dinghy park while rigging when the guys are talking smack. Hell if they can make a show out of sticking 12 people in a house for a couple of weeks, why not.

Now we are getting somewhere. We need the reality show touch. Maybe a want to be pop star show touch too. As part of the media circus we can have "want to be"s failing miserably and nearly drowning as they try to "get on the team". Some pimp my ride extras on the boats, like fitted DVD players in the boom. We can have the Japanise game show touch for bow man recruitment where you throw bricks at them to see if the duck. The JackAss element where someone get their nuts smashed around a shroud every 3 minutes... ... I remember now why I do not have a TV.

A little history lesson: The 18 foot skiff Grand Prix.

The GP 18 circuit largely came about around '89 or '90 when Bethwaite introduced the Mk1 B18 (the first of which was Banana Republic driven by JB, which later became the first of the AAMI 18s), which was itself a development/mass production version of the last of his 'Prime Computer' 18s... Prime Computers was the first modern assymetric 18, had a self tacking jib and a deck stepped mast all in the name of saving weight... JB even raced it as a 2 hander for a while until the rule makers in the 18s set a minimum crew limit of 3 when racing. The B18 was a significantly cheaper and 'smaller' 18 than the $100k (1980's money) behemoths it raced against initally (there's a great photo around somewhere of one of the first b18s sitting in an old boats cradle... think of trying to fit a moth into a 29er cradle and you'll get some idea of what it looked like), and in many cases proved to be a lot faster with a rudimentary set and forget rig as opposed to the god-awful hydraulically tensioned rigs and 25+ foot wingspans that the big boats of the time were running towards the end of the 'wing wars'. The B14 was developed very soon afterwards, and not surprisingly very closely resembles a mk1 B18.

Basically the wing wars behemoths were too expensive and cumbersome to have decent racing in (as someone mentioned in another thread they were the ultimate 'bang the corner' boats, simply because tacking the suckers meant running a fair distance very quickly... plus with the huge wingspans if you dipped a wing you were a gonner). So, a lot of sponsors saw the nice cheap quick and more importantly tactical B18 (which had a far smaller wingspan, although it's still wider than the league boats run nowadays) as a good way of saving some serious dosh for the next season onwards and bought them to replace the wing wars generation boats, which were all stupidly expensive care of using materials developed by NASA for the space progam (like nomex/pre-preg carbon/kevlar in some cases, which had only been used for boat building for less than 10 years and as such was still prohibitively expensive and not fully developed at the time).

As everyone seemed to have the same boat at the same time at the SFS (all B18s) the GP idea was launched and it just seemed to work for the best part of 10 years (and 4 generations of B18s, ending in the Mk4 B18... which was still quite prone to nosedive but in some ways it's arguably a better boat than the league Murray design 18s), and really took off when the tv stations came on board and gave sailing some serious tv presence, which ultimately led to sailing in aus getting a fair bit of street cred (seemed to jump from channel 9 to 10 or vice versa at some stage during the procedings IIRC). Many of the original B18s from the very start of the GP period are still out and about, although some of the boats that came out of the Bethwaite shed were a bit iffy if they happened to be made during the pre-season rush period (understandably when you are given orders for 10 boats to be made in 6 weeks before the new season something had to give).

Then when the 49er came about, GP sailing thought that they could just do the same thing in the 49ers (yet again cheaper boats and also the whole 2000 sydeney olympics thing was starting to take over), and dropped the 18s much to many an 18 sailor's chagrin (Rob Brown had just had a brand new Prudential built and launched a couple of weeks before GPS pulled the plug and nicho was due to get a new Skilled Engineering too). Sadly, the Aus GP 49er circuit only lasted a year or two... there were only about a dozen races of it on TV and after a season it was cancelled in lieu of the bloody half-time cricket discussion panels (why, god... WHY!). It just wasn't the same as the 18s. From there GP sailing fell over and sailing in Aus hasn't quite been the same since.

The problem with re-establishing a Grand Prix in 18s is that there just isn't the money around for it any more... the GP guys were paid some serious cash to go race, and many of them did that it as their full time job. IIRC the major prize at the season was worth upwards of $100k (usually a car and a large cash prize split between the 3 crew), who also earnt race fees that weren't to be scoffed at. Pokie revenue just isn't enough to cover the bills of sending fleets of 18 footers and all their gear, support crews and the tv crews to weird and wonderful places, and there aren't many sponsors who'd be willing to foot the additional bills on top of sponsoring boats to do it either. I think that we can all face it... while it was great while it lasted, Grand Prix sailing is at least comatose if not completely dead. If the AC doesn't sort it's current shitefight out soon in all likelyhood it may die the death too (well... maybe).

The only boats that I could see having a GP series work would be the moths... $20k/boat, can be flown with the sailor from place to place as excess luggage, international fleets already exist in serious numbers, it's a boat that catches the imagination of a lot of people and a fair few sponsors, add to that the fact that moths are rapidly becoming the plaything of the rockstar sailor makes it almost the perfect boat for the job. And yet, when the foiler1 grand prix was proposed it seemed to fall flat on its face for lack of interest and sponsors. I think that is enough of a sign to say that sailing really is in a bad way... and something despirately needs to be done about it.

There will be people on here that know a heck of a lot more as to what happened to the Ultra 30s, but essentially I'd guess at a combination of high running costs and low viewing figures on TV (the highlights packages were bounced around BBC's "grandstand" sports programme on a Saturday or Sunday- unpredictable, little trailed and on when any right minded sailor was on the water) killed them off- sponsership money generally increases with potential exposure.


Maybe we need to get the Indians involved? thinking along cricket lines... the Aussies revolutionised cricket the first time (Packer), now the Indians are taking it a step further. Late 80s/early ninties Aussie Skiffs have had a big impact on the sailing world (look at all the modern OD classes in the UK, and influence is clear, even if they're not "skiffs")- but my comparison falls down as whilst cricket was already well embedded in India, sail racing isn't so.

I LOVE these boats. Of all vintages. The are just fucking awesome. I have been very fortunate to sail GP boats and League boats in all crew spots including stick time in a race on Sydney Harbour. Now, as an ex-pat Brit and resident of Canada, that is right up there on my list of things to do before I die. I also now own the old Nokia boat referenced earlier in the Youtube videos. She is just simply breathtaking. I still watch the old Ronstan vids at least once a month, admittedly once the girlfriend is asleep. Anyway, I chatted to one of the Aus guys when I was on the Sydney Hobart race (yes, I do do some big boat stuff) and he was responsible for the promo on some of the old GP 18 stuff. He sent me the "How to" kit and really it boiled down to getting a couple of key local moeny some decent exposure for their stake. As with all these things, they had to start small, but once you get a little, others get interested and it really requires a local "spark-plug" to get it going and then build the momentum.

Nothing gathers a crowd like a crowd and the Ultra30's are a great example of that - the media company responsible just couldnt gather a non-sailing crowd. It failed. Of course every sailor on the planet knew about it with the boats and the rock stars, but that is not where the money comes from.

I started a skiff fleet up in frozen Canada about 5 years ago, when performance sailing was viewed as 15 year Alba-snores with new sails. Now we have some 18 boats, all raced and toured all over the place. We have our own event that has gained momentum with others (Ottawa Skiff GP), but can we get money in to it? Can we buggery. Still we rely on the same old sponsors within the sailing business that dont have much money to start with. Needs TV. The one year we had a 30 second snip on the local news channel, we got thousands the following year in goodies and support.

I cannot keep supporting my lovely Nokia now either, so if any of you have a new fleet to kick off, then let me know!

18's will go forever, just like the 14. There is enough in there regardless of external. But we all want that extra pizzaz. Be careful what you wish for as it usually makes it impossible for the rest of us to come close to even competing.

I wasn't thinking quite that over the top. Just something to get more attention and maybe draw the younger crowd in. If you could start something that gets the sport out there and maybe draws people in, it might help with drawing advertizing dollars.

Ahem, there were several people that started the fleet. And when did we get thousands in sponsorship?

I agree that the 18s will continue to exist regardless. So long as there is gambling money to be made, there will be an 18' fleet in Sydney. I bet if we went back 40 years to a skiff club, you would hear the same conversation going on. Part of the attraction to the class is their extreme nature, there will always be a small niche out there for fast, expensive boats, they fill that niche - don't try and be a laser.

Grand Prix Sailing started with nearly all Murray boats so I think unlike the assymetric spinnaker Bethwaite cannot take credit for inventing Grand Prix Sailing.

maybe people could get something happening with i14s instead? the worlds are going to be in sydney next year, there are already a lot of boats racing in different states of aust and over seas....

He can't even claim credit for that. The Mk1 boats were rubbish, remember watching two of them sailing along in a westerly , both got hit by the same gust and both broke their masts at the same time in the same spot. Ask anyone who sailed on one how often the deck would split open at the gunwhale. Nice concept poorly executed, sounds familiar

Sarcasm does not work well on a screen.
Joking about the assy invention.

Point taken, problem is there are way to many people here that swallow the Breathwaster gospel hook line and sinker

Ah very nice history report but not quite exact on the time line

Ye GP started in the late 80s, but like John H. says, not by JB... if anyone has seen the first Ronstan video you will notice plenty of Murray 18s... Prudential for example with "flip flop" wings
JB designed the first B18 for the League... he was on the board of directors at the club at the time, as a vey cheap alternative to the GP boats. At the start of GP all the skiffs and sponsors were sailing at the League, the the famous "split" happened... and Bill Mc took all the skiffs that wanted GP to the SFS... this left the League with approx 4-6 skiffs in the fleet, and this is when JB first designed the B18 for the League! 2 years later and JB leaves the League and refines B18 design to end up at Mk4 B18 by 1995-96

That photo you talk of about the B18 sitiing in the old cradle was Michael Spies new b18 sitiing in his old cradle form a mid 80s massive beast, think it was in Aus Sailing mag... and the old "god-awful hydraulically tensioned rigs" were in fact very easy to get the boat thru different breeze ranges... with all the latest developement going on i wouldnt be surprised to see something similar again

Skip a few years of very successful GP... nearly 10 years, and the shit hit the wall, wether it was GP trying to do the 49ers or poor management, but GP went broke owing over $3million to creditors, Rob Brown and the like tried unsuccessfully to restart GP but didnt have the $$$ to buy the TV, as GP had done for many many years

So Patrick, do you want cheaper boats but faster? But add foils and that adds $25k to the allready $100k
When you compare this to something like Wild Oats or Alfa Romeo at around $10million each... I think its very good value for money

And I think everyones obsession with the League paying for skiffs thru gambling is a stretch of the truth, yes it certainly helps the cash flow... but I believe the "model" the League has been successfully using for the past 10 years goes something like... new skiff costs $100k... get a sponsor for 2-3 years at $25-$30k a year, then sell skiff after 3 years for approx $25-$30k and that equalls your up front cost... (as well as taking depreciation costs into the maths) it just takes 3 years of good managment and good sponsors/ racing/ crews to make it happen... thats the hard part!

So with some TV and sponsor activities, $25K a year should be within reach of most skiff teams... yes Europe is different, it doesnt have the "club" set up like in Oz, but it has way more people and way more money, just needs someone to work out a marketing plan, regatta circuit and TV and sponsors to get it all going just like in Oz... oh, and maybe a few spare million $$ to invest for 3 years before getting any return

Maybe this F1Sail is going to happen still... anyone got any news about this, it all sounded like the golden dream of skiff sailing... national teams, great venues, big TV, big prize money, big sponsors... sounds like GP on a super size scale...
And so much better than watching shite AC boats bobbing around

But great to see the 18s back on Ch 7 last week for JJ rap up, and interesting to see Bill Mc back doing commentary again... the wheel has turned full circle

He certianly hasn't forgotton any of his cliche's

The good old "Ding Dong Battle"

Viewers like to see people fucking up. That was a great thing about watching the GP 18's on TV, they get to the top mark and there's a good chance they'll be swimming, that makes for exciting viewing. They'd always be making the play of the day on the TV news, it was for hitting the piss rather than sailing perfectly, that kind of exposure is GOLD for sponsors.

The problem with sailing in general on TV is that swimming doesn't happen very often, particularly at the pointy end of the fleet.

A parade around the track makes for boring viewing, and that's me as a keen sailor speaking :|

I think the moths as they are now would make for quite good TV, that is until they get their control systems and sailors to a point where there is little likelyhood of swimming.

The 18's will survive - in some form or another - but not necessarily as the one you see now.

In the last 100 years or so they have come close to extinction many times, usually when a new breakthrough occurs or perhaps a rule change has thrown the skippers/owners into chaos, caused a faction to split away and the fleets drop away until some sort of status quo is reached that stabilises the class/breakaway faction and things can begin to move on again.

Seeing as sponsorship money is so important to an 18 these days, it can be regarded almost as if it was a "class rule". If you don't have it, you can't campaign an 18 in the currently accepted fashion.

If money becomes scarce, and stays that way, then the existing 18 will morph into something a bit less. It might not have the hoo-rah glamour imparted by the exorbitant sponsorship dollars, but it will be no less exciting to sail and it will still be fast.

Or you all bugger off and sail the historics at the SFS.

Speed isn't everything, outlandish 18-footer fun has to be a major component.

in the perfect world every club/class would have a large benefactor/sponsor which helps provide boats and cover sailing costs, but in reality that just isnt going to happen.

If you want a nice car you have to pay for it, same as if you want a nice boat you have to pay for it. Which is why in the long run classes like the 18 will survive because people want a nice boats. The sponsorship/club money certainly does help and anything which can be done to raise the profile of dinghy sailing outside of the sailing community will help bring in extra cash.

dont worry, that fleet is subsidised heavily as well. wander over one saturday and ask each skipper if they own their boat. not many. not many new sails seem to be bought by the skippers either. if it weren't for a couple of very generous acts that fleet probably wouldn't exist either.

digress a tad, but the only fleets that seem to survive off their own bat (if you'll excuse the choice of words) are the 12s & 14s.

i tried to get the 18s going again at the squaddy but had to stop upon discovering the money wasn't there, and wasn't ever likely to be there. crass as it sounds, it was completely dependant upon someone else's money be it a sponsor or club revenue. neither were there so it farted, spluttered & faded out again.

I guess the question really is; what would happen to the 18s if the league & woody weren't around? me, i reckon the class would slowly fold. as far as one might point fingers at the guys there for the way the control matters and run the class, it has kept the 18s pretty active and vibrant in sydney.

imho the class is dependant upon third party funding, no matter whether its from the league's pokie and restaraunt revenue, or sponsors, or an alternate source. if the bucks aren't there the class will fold.

A very on topic article on The Daily Sail.

http://www.thedailysail.com/ISM/articles.n...0257434002E9EBA

The first two years of grand prix all the boats were murray designs and a few jutson boats.The murray boats were so wide aft they were like a submarine on the bearaway and the jutson boats looked like a submarine .Both designs at the end of there usefull life went like a scolded cat with a 25hp outboard on the back.

Oh and sorry back on topic.Look at the sponsors for the last 8 years this thread should be "Would the 18s survive without John Winning?"

That can perhaps be expanded to read
"Would the 18s, both League Moderns and the SFS Historics, survive without John Winning?".

As I said in my earlier post, sponsorship, or "freely donated money", is now almost a class rule. Without it, you can barely even get out on the water, let alone be competitive.

There are privately owned and campaigned Historics but without Woody's 4 (or is it 5) boats, the SFS fleet would not appear so rosy. I think Woody's earlier Yandoo (before this last Ssanyong?) was the only non sponsored modern 18 at the time wasn't it??

The man's a legend.

My point exactly,i truly hope that history will state that Woody saved the 18s and dosnt mention those before him who nearly killed them with ego driven power struggles.

They had better survive i just bought on wit a friend of mine!!

Good thing spelling isn't a pre-requisite of sailing 18's (or I'd be screwed as well!). Welcome to the fleet.