GauchoGreg

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Everything posted by GauchoGreg

  1. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    Total and complete hogwash. EVERYONE wants their boat to go faster. HOWEVER, that desire is always balanced by cost, by keeping things simple, by desires for other things (on-board comfort and luxuries), etc. If a boat owner, or potential boat owner, had the option between two boats at equal cost, both with all the same features and same challenge to sail, except one is faster than the other, you know damned well which boat 99.9% would choose. You have consistently tried to push the same painful logic, that speed does not matter. And now, you are trying to argue that totally different foiling in the past, and its limited success in transferring to consumer sailing means that the HUGE innovations in foiling from AC34 will not trickle down. But the thing is, that the innovations in foiling from AC34 are more related to their simplifying the process of foiling rather than innovations that improve the top speed of the foiling. These innovations eliminate the need for complex mechanical systems such as wands, as well as eliminating the need to manage another system related to adjustable rudder planes for ride height. These innovations lend themselves extremely well to catamarans, and rather than making them harder to sail, they make them easier to sail . . . . something that can't be said of earlier foiling applications. Well, for the significant number of folks that do like catamarans, it is largely due to their substantially higher performance compared to monohulls, and the new foils are certainly going to be of interest (both for their improved speed and boat handling) if their costs can be brought down into reasonable range. Ignoring that, implying that the limited success of previous foil technology speaks to lack of desirability to foil, is ignoring human nature. Time will tell. I'm not saying all boats will be foiling. Many/most will prefer non-foiling . . . whether it is because they just want more stuff on their boats for their particular interest, or because the cost is prohibitive, or because of a whole host of other things. But for those who want high performance boats, the allure of getting out of the water and going faster will be extremely attractive, particularly if it comes along with a better handling boat. At that point, the biggest factor will be cost. If everyone wants their boat to go faster, why is the slow Dragon the most popular keelboat internationally, when their owners could spend a lot less and get a multi? If everyone wants their boat to go faster, why do more people race Lasers, Solos and Sabres than Moths (foiler or seahugger) or windsurfers? Why do more people race Hobie 16s and Dart 18s than A Class and F16s? Are you seriously saying that Melges owners could not afford a faster Stilleto cat or Farrier tri instead? No, I don't damn well know that most people would choose the faster boat because I know what they do choose. A vast amount of them pay more and go through more inconvenience to own slower craft. I personally love fast gear (my fastest stuff is still quicker than a Moth, whereas IIRC you sail ballasted monos which seems to disprove your claim that people prefer speed) but most people don't; they get scared and it's not just for them. It's not me who is ignoring human nature; I'm the one who has been at class meetings of high-performance cat classes where the overwhelming vote has been AGAINST alterations that made the boat go faster. Even the Tornado class voted against going faster and only went for the "Sport" rig when ISAF told them to. The A Class threads here show that even many current A owners do NOT want the extra speed that foiling offers. That is human nature at work. Sure, lots of people DO like going faster. That's great. So are foilers and other high performance craft. I own and have done well in some pretty rapid small singlehanders and I love them - if I was biased it would be towards fast kit. But the facts are clear and simple in that the boats that people choose show that most of them don't seem to really worry about pure speed all that much. Some of the people who don't worry about speed much would get a faster boat if all else was equal, but we can tell from what people sail that most of them rate convenience, economy, fleet size and similar factors much higher than speed. If they rated speed at No 1 then Moths, 18 Squares, skiffs and kiteboards would be biggest racing fleets but instead it's Lasers, Thistles, Js, etc. But since you can't have a conversation without resorting to paper tigers and straw men, it's not worth continuing this discussion. It's only not worth continuing the conversation if you are going to continue ignoring the points others are making and twisting those words in a silly effort to "prove" your point. What I clearly said was that there are a great deal of factors that lead any person to logically chose a boat. They include crew/gear capacity, set-up/operating complexity, storage/moorage/transportation, sea-worthiness, COST, etc.. AND OF COURSE, SPEED. But for 99.9%, it is a trade off / balancing act of which of these things a prospective owner can handle and what they desire. But NO ONE says they picked X boat because it was slower than Y boat, for that reason alone. Just as no one intentionally rips holes in their sails or intentionally grows barnacles on their boat hulls. People logically want to go as fast as they can while also achieving their other desires. If someone wants a boat that takes up next to no room and can be put together and sailed in minutes with the easiest of operation, then they are not going to get a boat that misses on those points but is really fast. However, if there are two options that meet all of those needs, first, but one is faster than the other at no extra cost, then 99.99% will pick the faster boat. To take your examples: Lasers, Solos and Sabres as WAY cheaper and easier to sail than Moths (foiler or seahugger) and are easier to sail and have more capacity than windsurfers. Hobie 16s and Dart 18s cost a fraction of A Class and F16s, as well as being easier to sail. A Melges, again, is easier to sail and offers easier logistics and other factors compared to a Stilleto cat or Farrier tri. But guess what, there are a lot of people that still want the Moths, sailboards/kite boards, A-Class & F16s, Stilletos, and Farriers. It takes more money, it takes more work, it takes more practice to sail them, but the reward is more excitement, which for them is more important than the factors that make others opt for the lower performance boats. But again, if someone has two boats to choose between which are identical in all factors but performance (meaning they are the same in cost, size/capacity, complexity, difficulty, etc.), 99.9999% are going to pick the boat that can go faster. So, now that we already have a significant owners of multi-hulls out there that have balanced their interests and opted for those higher performance boats, if the advances from AC34 continue to show promise in making the operation of the boats easier while also improving performance, and if the cost can be kept down, it is the utmost in absurdity to claim that it won't trickle down because of some deluded thinking that performance does not matter. Yikes!
  2. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    You must be mistaken. People don't like to go fast.
  3. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    Wow, talk about a hell of a lot of effort that means nothing. Trickle down from AC34 would be starting since the AC boats were developed, and would only be relevant with respect to multi-hulls since mono-hulls do not lend themselves to the same technology. Rather than putting so much effort into analysis of historic development, prior to AC34, of boats that are not relevant, it might be better to just watch and see how interest in foiling, paired with ongoing development employing new concepts developed in AC34 (and the self-regulating foils really did not have any significant life before AC34) ends up translating to more foiling for the consumer sailing world (from dinghy to yacht). I find it interesting that many want to poo-poo the very idea that foiling could take off rather than being interested in how the potential of something that so dramatically improves performance can translate to the consumer sailing world. But since most of the sailing world wants their boats to go faster, no matter what kind of boat (I have never heard anyone say they want their boat to be slower), it seems like it would be reasonable to hope for new advancements to somehow translate to as much of the sailing world as possible. And if it does not relate to the kind of boat you are interested in, why be invested in poo-pooing its potential in the rest of the sailing world? When there is a decade or so of evidence proving that only a tiny proportion of the world's sailors have moved to foiling despite the fact that it has been setting new performance standards for years it is certainly relevant to the issue of whether the AC "trickle down" has the potential to change multihull sailing forever in a major way, as claimed. How can you predict where we could go if you ignore where we have been and where we are? I am not in any way poo-pooing foiling, which is why I clearly said that foiling is fun and can lead to fantastic performance. The fact that you or I or anyone else enjoys it is great, but that doesn't mean that so many people will take it up that it will necessarily change multihull sailing in a major way - or in a good way. I enjoyed the days of televised pro windsailing when I got to hang upside-down above the waves competing with the world's best paid pros in front of thousands of spectators too, but that whole scene crashed because everyone got caught up in the hype and ignored the reality. Most of the sailing world isn't actually that concerned about making their boats go much faster in absolute terms - that's why Lasers have always outsold Canoes, why boats like the Lightning, Snipe and Enterprise are vastly more popular than skiffs,and why Hobie 16s and Darts are vastly more popular than F16s. I am concerned that there is evidence that moving a sport further towards performance at the expense of accessibility will harm its overall popularity. Most of the popular and growing sports are those in which even the pros use fairly cheap and accessible gear and sailing has been losing that, and losing numbers. This is NOT attacking development or high-performance classes, it's simply a reference to the issues that could be solved. I do feel that there are many more people who ignore the issues who come from the USA. That sort of thinking could be one reason why sailing is doing so poorly there. I'm not poo-pooing anything - I'm just trying to look at the reality because it's a better way to solve issues than shutting our eyes to them. Total and complete hogwash. EVERYONE wants their boat to go faster. HOWEVER, that desire is always balanced by cost, by keeping things simple, by desires for other things (on-board comfort and luxuries), etc. If a boat owner, or potential boat owner, had the option between two boats at equal cost, both with all the same features and same challenge to sail, except one is faster than the other, you know damned well which boat 99.9% would choose. You have consistently tried to push the same painful logic, that speed does not matter. And now, you are trying to argue that totally different foiling in the past, and its limited success in transferring to consumer sailing means that the HUGE innovations in foiling from AC34 will not trickle down. But the thing is, that the innovations in foiling from AC34 are more related to their simplifying the process of foiling rather than innovations that improve the top speed of the foiling. These innovations eliminate the need for complex mechanical systems such as wands, as well as eliminating the need to manage another system related to adjustable rudder planes for ride height. These innovations lend themselves extremely well to catamarans, and rather than making them harder to sail, they make them easier to sail . . . . something that can't be said of earlier foiling applications. Well, for the significant number of folks that do like catamarans, it is largely due to their substantially higher performance compared to monohulls, and the new foils are certainly going to be of interest (both for their improved speed and boat handling) if their costs can be brought down into reasonable range. Ignoring that, implying that the limited success of previous foil technology speaks to lack of desirability to foil, is ignoring human nature. Time will tell. I'm not saying all boats will be foiling. Many/most will prefer non-foiling . . . whether it is because they just want more stuff on their boats for their particular interest, or because the cost is prohibitive, or because of a whole host of other things. But for those who want high performance boats, the allure of getting out of the water and going faster will be extremely attractive, particularly if it comes along with a better handling boat. At that point, the biggest factor will be cost.
  4. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    I had not seen that. Yikes. I nice way to treat his customers. If you're not paying, you're the product rather than the customer! In a advertiser-sponsored site, we are the equivalent of customers. We go away, his advertisers go away. We and the advertisers can be seen as one.
  5. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    ^^ And to just assume it can't be done for the 99.99% because of the past is in itself a big assumption. There are countless things in regular life that we couldn't have imagined trickling down from astronauts, professional motor sports, etc. The logistics issues, given what we have now, are certainly a major problem for wings. But AC34 showed just how tame the boats can be with a not-so-elaborate mooring system, even with relatively crude wing systems compared to what will likely be possible in the future. For instance, I do not think it would be out of the realm of possibility to have wing spars with flaps that can be extended by pressurized air or other means to provide the majority of the wing area. Such a system could end up being easier to manage than current conventional cloth sails. We just don't know what tomorrow will bring, but poo-pooing the potential for advancements because of what we currently see as limitations is a good way to be stuck in today.
  6. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    Wow, talk about a hell of a lot of effort that means nothing. Trickle down from AC34 would be starting since the AC boats were developed, and would only be relevant with respect to multi-hulls since mono-hulls do not lend themselves to the same technology. Rather than putting so much effort into analysis of historic development, prior to AC34, of boats that are not relevant, it might be better to just watch and see how interest in foiling, paired with ongoing development employing new concepts developed in AC34 (and the self-regulating foils really did not have any significant life before AC34) ends up translating to more foiling for the consumer sailing world (from dinghy to yacht). I find it interesting that many want to poo-poo the very idea that foiling could take off rather than being interested in how the potential of something that so dramatically improves performance can translate to the consumer sailing world. But since most of the sailing world wants their boats to go faster, no matter what kind of boat (I have never heard anyone say they want their boat to be slower), it seems like it would be reasonable to hope for new advancements to somehow translate to as much of the sailing world as possible. And if it does not relate to the kind of boat you are interested in, why be invested in poo-pooing its potential in the rest of the sailing world?
  7. GauchoGreg

    trickle down

    I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned Clean is permanently blacklisted - due to an exceedingly loutish (even by his standards) comment he made sometime ago. Trouble is, I don't remember what it was about any more, although I did copy it somewhere .. Edit: found it I had not seen that. Yikes. I nice way to treat his customers.
  8. GauchoGreg

    Team UK

    Interesting. Nice to see he is readily admits that it will be in multis, and that he will participate if costs can be controlled. Also nice that he did not mention anything specific about what the boats should be.
  9. GauchoGreg

    Team UK

    Don't forget cycling. Two TdF wins in a row.