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Posts posted by Greenflash

  1. This is terrible news. My thoughts and love to all those involved. :(

    Let's give them some time to take stock and give feedback on the event when they are ready, without jumping to any conclusions. 

    This is a bad day for anyone in the multihull world and indeed any sailor! 

    • Like 3
  2. Apologies for the slow replies we've been doing a lot of sailing on 68-03 over here, in lieu of the Cannes Boat Show. For prospective clients it's been much more valuable than a show visit, of course we would have loved to show the boat to more people. Next year, I hope life is more back to normal! 

    I'll answer some of the questions with a little info - forgive the cloak and dagger but this is early days and we're trying to be respectful to the owners with whom we are still working through some of the steps of the project. 

    On 9/6/2020 at 5:05 AM, vokstar said:

    The renders are in.. I'm guessing there will be many tongues wagging about the steering position at the rear. Be interesting to see what is going on in the forward cockpit too. I think in the 68 they wanted the mast further back and have achieved it with the 80. 


    Ah ha! It's finally happening - aft helms on a Gunboat.  Here's the deal: We will do either only inside, only outside or both (Since we believe tiller steering won't be great on a boat this size). Many people love to be outside when the weather is nice. Many are happy for that the be the only spot, with a good nav station, throttles and pilot controls inside. 

    We've still got a forward cockpit with centralized control of lines, while at a minimum the main sail controls will be at each helm+ nav - push button. This boat will likely go one step further with powered/automated controls, but that is entirely owner driven. Our ethos is to keep things simple and have backups for the majority of the functions. 

    On 9/6/2020 at 6:08 PM, mpenman said:

    Not a fan of house stepped mast. Cannot get to it without going on the roof.

    Come'on @Greenflash say it ain't so. 

    Sorry mate, VPLP wanted to put the 68 rig on the roof and we felt it was too much of a step (excuse the pun!). We ended up moving it half a meter aft.

    We are creating a giant salon on the 80, so the ratio really doesn't work well anymore, you would have a long boom and huge main that still has to be handled by 2-3 crew, so there is compelling reason to put it on the cabin top and create a little plinth for halyards in the cockpit. The aspect ratios are better, the "J" is much bigger allowing for a much bigger solent/jib/J2 on a self tacking track in front of the rig. Our forward cockpit has been completely redesigned to be as much of a lounging area as a working area.  Other than the usual sail ties for reefs, there is no reason to go to the roof as all the line handling and rope-holding is done at the cockpit level. 

    It certainly is a big decision to make and one that we plan to integrate seamlessly to create a more balanced result. 

    On 9/6/2020 at 9:17 PM, tofi33 said:

    flybridge on a GB!

    Ha ha - We call that the "fly lounge", it is to be used at anchor only - if it were to be used when sailing it would mean raising the boom higher, and that comes with performance compromises. You have the choice of a flat roof covered in solar, a fly lounge or my favorite: use the fly lounge volume to create a SUP/Kiteboard/Surfboard storage box, with a hard composite cover, that can be hinged up. This cover can be fully flush and covered in solar panels. 

    Appreciate the feedback and support. More coming.

    • Like 5
  3. On 8/7/2020 at 5:45 PM, NZK said:

    I've definitely had a few of these moments in the fwd pit when we were pushing hard on a 66...


    Ha, no of course if you're going fast then there will be a lot of apparent wind, let me clarify that statement: Because you have a wall behind you and you're tucked into a recessed hole in the boat, it is less windy that the equivalent exposed aft helm. Even on Allegra (APC Irens 78 footer), which have done an amazing job of designing a sexy and functional aft helm (They still have a forward cockpit though!), they put up little spray dodgers for sailing offshore - they reckon it is just really tiring without it. 

  4. Ah ha! A forward cockpit thread! Haven't had one of these for a few years, or... weeks. My ears were burning, so happy to delve in a little. 

    Firstly, I am by no means a forward cockpit convert or evangelist, just happen to have built a lot of boats with them, as well as aft helm boats - short answer is it depends what you want. However, I think the idea of the fwd pit/outside helm is often misunderstood. 

    I deal with this question 50 times a day at boatshows and literally weekly online. People often think that interior helm boats are designed with the helm inside as the driving design brief and the cockpit secondary - yet the original vision that old PJ had on Tribe (Yes I know it was done before PJ), was to sail a fast, powerful boat shorthanded and with family in a safe way. That meant bringing all the controls to a central point - the mast makes the most sense.

    It then makes sense to put the helm nearby and obviously you don't want it outside only, it would be uncomfortable at times. So they put it inside, where you can go into shelter when things get a little hairy. The major controls can be controlled from the helm and for anything else you're 1 step away. You don't need to stand there in 50 knots getting beaten up. Regardless, you'll be surprised how dry it is, and always relatively sheltered from the wind.

    There's little argument that if you want to race, nothing beats being at the back, up high, exposed and in the breeze- hence the advent of tillers on these boats. Even cruisers love to be out there in nice weather, but both cruisers and racers will agree that in bad weather that is the last place they want to be. 

    I like aft helm cats with "protected helms", but it is sad to see that the majority of them still have a winch at the rig or base of longeron. Walking outboard and forward to handle something is definitely not as comfortable/safe as having it all in one place or going through the boat to a fwd door. Even with the lines run aft, you're always going to have a port/stbd split in operations, assuming that anything with a little performance will have 2 helms. 

    In summary the real success factor for a fwd cockpit is that it is a real "Central Command Station". Also, check out the latest Ultime "Sodebo" that have taken that to the next level.



    • Like 1
  5. 22 hours ago, efrank said:

    Do you have a man-hour total?

    Sorry I can't share that info - mostly because it is completely irrelevant without perspective. We do a lot more outsourcing in Europe compared to other countries so our "make vs buy" strategy means our hours would be less than comparative yards elsewhere. I like to say we do in house what we are really specialists in, if someone can do it better and more affordably than we can, we should seriously consider outsourcing it...*** as long as there isn't an IP conflict. These boats are semi-custom, high tech and take tens of thousands of hours, is all I can say. 

    35 minutes ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

    Do you have any photos of the cockpit layout and hardware you can share with us?  Thanks

    Here's a photo from 68-01 which is by and large the same setup (seat is removable, rope bag missing)


    26 minutes ago, Wess said:

    Seems the Gunboat staff has been continually upgraded and the results speak for themselves.

    Thanks Wess - it isn't as easy as you may think to find highly skilled people in the South of France, we brought in some experts from all over but a lot of the staff have been trained in house (from being a car plumber or a house carpenter, or working with only polyester before). We have an agreement with the local government to set up large training centers, we get 20 people in who do lamination or carpentry training, some of our costs are taken care of and then at the end we get the pick of the litter. 

    Case-in-point: A woman came from being an environmental landscaping project manager (like reclaiming beach dunes etc) and retrained with us in a big session to become a carpenter. She did such a great job on board and realizing she has good admin skills and a eye for quality , I offered her to become our quality leader. She now works 80% of the time managing defect resolution and commissioning checklists and 20% of the time on our sustainability program. We're splitting waste at the source and not only recycling it, but selling it, creating a nice circular economy. Lots more to do! 

    Now the magic really starts to happen, because we have several people who have shifted from one department to another - so we actually have what I would call "Boatbuilders!", which are all rounders capable of composites and fitout. 



    • Like 7
  6. On 7/24/2020 at 6:46 PM, yl75 said:

    The mast looks like a non rotating one right ? 

    And no wind sensor at the top, to be installed later ? or an ultrasonic one ?

    Rig is the 'regatta' rig, which means 29 meter, rotating. Sensor wasn't on yet in the photo. 

    We were skimming along after 4 hours of seatrials, everything is just working fantastically. We not only have ultimate confidence in structure and systems, we also have mostly the same team - so everyone knows exactly what to do and when to do it. There is the usual list of things to tweak and sort out, but I'll have that for a first weekend of tests any day! 

    Pic sidenote: We put some batten tension in on Sunday morning to get those wrinkles out the main.


    • Like 4
  7. On 7/22/2020 at 9:18 AM, Tylo said:

    Only a 3-week delay during these times. As someone who knows how hard it has been to 1) source sailing hardware in Europe when so many suppliers are closed due to lockdown and 2) knows how hard it is to actually find a way to ship said hardware if you actually manage to find it, I'm very impressed with that.

    I'm curious to find out if the owner of 03 went with the Regatta-package or the slightly more cruising oriented setup.

    Thank you! I Cannot begin to explain the efforts by the whole team and partners, from Lorima to North to Lewmar to Rigging Projects, from Cariboni that were in the Italian epicenter of the pandemic, just to name a few. Everyone juggled so many balls to get everything here on time. We had to keep the builders safe, so we had only one person per area in the boat, which meant two very long shifts for everyone. Our paint team are mostly made up of Polish guys - more like super-humans than guys - and they went home during the lockdowns, yet returned sooner than we originally expected, which made a big difference to the schedule. 

    The owners had a blast watching the launch, they christened her properly and there's even a Swiss gold coin under the rig somewhere... 

    Sailing this weekend! And yes, they have a full Future Fibres ECsix package. 

    Appreciate you all following us and supporting this fantastic team. 

    • Like 6
  8. We had Goiot in the office on Monday - to be clear this is for a square hatch, not for the hatch shown in the image. It is the 49.42. 

    As I was explained: To be more technical, the square one only has dogs on one side, so the acrylic can shift on the hinge side. the round ones have dogs almost all the way around, there isn't a way the acrylic can shift, so we are safe. 

    If you have the square hatch, stop sailing and contact Goiot or at least make a plywood cover or emergency stopper for the hole immediately. 


    • Like 1
  9. Happy New Year everybody! Thanks for the support, critique, debate and for just being interested over the course of the project. 2020 here we go! 

    Check out the last update on the Gunboat 68: https://mailchi.mp/gunboat/gunboatnews-dec2019

    I've taken some screenshots of the meaty bits below. ;)

     A few general thoughts - the first 2 boats of a series I generally call prototypes as the second doesn't have the time to take all the production lessons from the first. We're now into "production mode" if you can call it that for these boats. It means even if there are changes to the boat, we have a complete picture of every ramification throughout our design and production line. We have stabilized the supply chain and human resource, as well as quality control. The final step is to react quickly to on-the-water feedback from the first two boats and make changes in the line if needed.

    The fun part is now comes the time when we have the experience to try a few new exciting things and we've  done just that in the upcoming boats, watch this space! 




    • Like 4
  10. 2 hours ago, eastern motors said:

    I'm sure it's the same as the Outremmer 5x.  Same parent company.  Look up some youtube videos of that boat.

    Nope! ;) they are custom designed Carbon seats, quick release bases and the seat can rotate. Custom square-to-round style carbon tillers. We still have some tweaks to do on Condor, but getting there. aecb0b9d-83e3-4af5-959f-5728f34f541f.thumb.JPG.43859dd3366c5b539dcce5ca8e1acd12.JPG

    • Like 4
  11. Gosh guys, thanks. A couple of years in china will ram that patience into you good and and solid. No cliches intended but I am really just a small part of a big team, long ago I realized I am not VERY good at anything, but pretty good at a lot of things so I try to just help all the guys smarter and better than me do their jobs as best they can. Some amazing people here, they are killing it. Lots more work to do and improvements to make. No rest for the wicked! 

    • Like 4
  12. Look guys and gals, Gunboat aren't involved in the "soma project" so really can't comment - there's a thread for that if you feel like it - what I can do is stick to the thread and update you all on the progress at the Gunboat 68 factory! 

    • GB6802 Dash has been back in the marina for some final hitlist items and leave for their crossing next week.
    • GB6803 Deck was dry fitted
    • GB6804 Was demolded and...
    • Starting GB6805 in a couple of weeks once the mold is prepped!

    Check out the link for more info: https://www.gunboat.com/gunboat68-on-a-roll/




    • Like 8
  13. On 9/27/2019 at 7:23 PM, ProaSailor said:

    One key to success is selecting the right fabric for the job. Steggall says he uses no woven reinforcements, only noncrimp stitched fabrics. He worked with Formax to modify its +45°/–45° biaxial carbon fiber fabrics of 400 g/m² and 300 g/m² (1.4 oz/sq ft and 1 oz/sq ft) and a 0°/90° biaxial of 300 g/m². A nylon microweb (at about 3 g/m² per 100 g/m² of carbon) was stitched between the plies to provide a path for air to escape. This web also increased flexural and compression strength without adding significant weight. In the end, the tests proved that infusion would best meet Bieker’s specifications.

    This is a good bit of boatbuilding debate, as pertinent to crash protection as Kevlar vs Carbon is. Firstly some info: Stitched fabric is a bit lighter and stiffer than woven fabrics because the woven weave absorbs slightly more resin and the "rovings/strands" of material need to go up and down through the weave, where a flat stitched fabric has strands that are completely straight. 

    However on cruising boats we have always used a woven fabric as the first layer down on the mold because, apart from some sanding-and-painting benefits and it printing less, it holds together in a crash. If you had a small to medium sized hole in the outer skin on a stitched boat, the water will actually 'tear' the strands off and apart.. and keep going all the way down the undamaged hull - they are completely relying on inter-laminar shear, whereas a woven fabric is mechanically holding itself together. 

    Also, from the many panels I have seen tested I am pretty sure woven generally handles impact loads better than stitched. (In other words in a bowling-ball drop test). I'll let you composite guru's comment on that. 

    For the quoted project, the micromesh fibers assisted with infusion flows but also added strength. I don't know how they would help with 'peeling' of fibres after impact.  My comments above are based solely on pure woven vs pure stitched carbon cloth. Another thing to consider ;)

    • Like 2
  14. Everything you guys say is absolutely right - Kevlar is of course better than Carbon for crash resistance - they make bullet proof vests out of the stuff! :P

    Our conclusion was to use the minimum skin thickness requirement to benefit performance while understanding our heavy skins already gave us a huge margin of safety for impact strength, we then analyse what the crash event is doing. The vast majority of times it is from the front onto the bow or foils (and we discussed this in this thread before so please go back to check that out) - so we do a 4 level of safety which I will reiterate very shortly: A crash bow not integral to the hull skins and filled with pretty high density energy absorbing foam, then the actual hull closing out, then a crossbeam bulkhead a bit behind that, then the water tight aft sail locker bulkhead a few meters behind that. 

    When I say Kevlar is going along for the ride, to be clear, it is not adding a significant value to the overall stiffness, but would add more impact resistance. We chose stiffness while being more than comfortable with impact loads due to the minimum skin requirements and 4-tier impact protection on bow and heavily reinforced daggerboard bearings etc.

    • Like 2
  15. 16 minutes ago, mpenman said:

    I know that Greenflash is a fan of the units

    Ya got me mate. They aren't the highest energy and not the final solution to this regen story but they work well, completely detachable and serviceable and don't hurt the boat if the get hit or if they break. A safe go to add on option for diesel propulsion boats. 

    • Like 2
  16. 2 hours ago, Mordoc said:

    Have you considered Kevlar reinforcement? Marsaudon offers it as an option for the TS line.

    A number of years ago hybrid laminates were all the rage - 900grams of carbon and then 300g of kevlar or eglass. I can't dispute that the last 300g in kevlar would handle dock-rash better, but it is absolutely just going along for the ride. VPLP told us why put something in there that doesn't DO anything to the stiffness of the boat? It is like making a rope out of Dyneema and Polyester strands - the Dyneema will take all the load to failure before the PE even gets close to its max strain. 

    So on the Gunboat 68, because in essence it is already beefed up by minimum skin thickness requirements for CE, we go full carbon because it actually does make the boat better, without taking away from the robustness in terms of impact strength. 

    • Like 2
  17. I'll wade in, why not. She has so much power right now I don't think she even gets it. People are loving the young person scolding adults idea - makes us all look like fools because she is willing to say the things nobody else is willing to. She doesn't play by the rules. 

    But - I thought her basically crying whiny speech to the UN was almost to the point of being rude, she was not showing maturity in controlling emotions. I understand she is still a child and it must be hard, but it she wants to make a real change then you need to deliver the message to the leaders of the world with maturity and not be too radical. 

    If she is too radical and in-your-face I am pretty sure the powers that be will stop giving her a soap box to stand on. 

    Use your power carefully and wisely Greta. Don't scowl at President Trump - engage with him - draw him in - be the better, smarter, wiser person and make the world feel DUMB for not listening to you. Don't whine and bitch! 

  18. 2 hours ago, Wess said:

    *  How light can you go on the outer skin before you start to have a significant risk of crushing and puncture damage in real life cruising environments?  If this isn't confidential and you can share, what is GB using (they seem to do OK in real life cruising environment) as an outer hull laminate?

    Friend and I both have large-ish tris.  Mine more cruise orientated in design brief his more race orientated.  Both cored boats obviously.  His thermo-formed (? not sure that is the correct term?) mine w kerfs. We both have fairly light inner hull skins.  Both of us have had recent reason to do some hull repairs and we see well built boats.  My damage from massive lightning strike.  His from simple rock and roll while rafted to another boat and well secured and bumpered.  I would never in a million years think a bumper could this but he had some significant crushing (where the bumpers were) through the outer skin which looks to be carbon at a thickness equal to about 200-300 grams per square meter mat (and similar inner).  My outer hull laminate is more beefy.  

    So back to the question... at what stage do you start to worry the outer hull is too thin/light for real life boating? 

    Hi Wess

    It depends on the size and purpose of the boat, even in CE you get different design categories that drive structural engineering. I can tell you that our size of boats, built to CE, have to have 1200g/sm skins (that is 1.2mm) on the outside skin. I would never want to go under 1000g for real protection for a 'big' cruising boat. If your buddy has 300g skins, that will hold the boat together, but impact or dock rash strength is very little, so he better baby that boat as much as possible, because: sh!t happens and that is why CE (Really, ISO Structural Cat A) have these rulebooks, written on top of the graves of plenty of people who kept pushing the limits.

    It isn't a raceboat, which means the payloads are huge and the normal use cases can be wildly varying especially considering there aren't always pro sailors managing the boat... or perhaps because pro sailors do get to play on board... Safety factors are important ;). Case in point:  many old Gunboats have completely new rig packages and much much longer daggerboards and are being sailed harder than ever. Then 3Di sails and non-stretchy  running rigging came on board which recently meant the gear like mainsheet cars were blowing up. The boats are holding together though and a big part of this is due to weight-saving refits over the years - and safety factors!

    This isn't an ideal situation though, so that is why the Gunboat 68 was engineered for worst case daggerboard, rudder and rig loads. Someone can take Dash and turn it into Condor without worrying about the platform, bearings, etc. I look forward to seeing this consistency or dare I say "one design" proving itself valuable in the years to come! 

    • Like 2
  19. On 9/16/2019 at 10:38 PM, EarthBM said:


    Have you guys considered routing fresh water through the salon roof for heating (and cooling the solar panels)?

    I figure if anyone can pull off the careful assembly required it’s GB.

    Hey you guys ARE smoking something - love these ideas! Yeah the glue down panels I am guessing lose 10-15% compared to raised /cooled panels, but they are walk-on and super easy to install and integrate. Water cooling in roof is doable, you are on a sandwich panel one side of foam, so you'd need to prep the water grid recesses in the mold before starting the roof. These will make the roof a lot heavier not even to speak of the water cooling system weight. Then the install complexity and the risk of leaks. Is the cost and sailing performance loss worth a 10% gain on solar? I'd rather spend that on bigger more efficient alternators or hydrogenerator integration etc etc. So short answer is - yes it can be done and we absolutely can do it - but I don't think it is money and weight well spent. 

    Back from 2 successful boatshows, couple of little awards under the belt and fantastic feedback on the Gunboat 68. I was so busy I didn't take many photos but Sailing Yacht TV did a live walkthrough in Cannes, check it out below. Reminder: This is 6802 DASH, full cruising setup. 


    • Like 1
  20. Hello Lurker19, congrats for not lurking anymore! ;)

    6 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

    1.  Is there some aspect of electric boats that's still not up to snuff?  I take it from your comment, that Moonwave didn't work as expected.  Are you planning anything or is it somethiing your clients generally aren't interested in?

    To be clear it is no secret V1.0 of Gunboat hybrid systems back in 2012 did not work very well, but that was seriously bleeding edge of the sword science project stuff. Moonwave as she is right now with a Torqeedo Hybrid system is seriously impressive. I've been on board to see it myself and we are in close touch with them. The exterior designer of Moonwave was on board  a while ago for a week's cruise and apparently they didn't burn a drop of diesel. :o (Note - no airconditioning)

    10 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

    2.  Most systems I've heard about have generators that charge batteries and motors running off the batteries.  Are you familiar with anything that works similar to a garden-variety LaFerrari, where:

    • The ICE can turn the propellor or turn the motor (to make electricity)
    • The motor can turn the propellor (either by itself or with the ICE)
    • The propellor can turn the motor (to make electricity)

    It seems that this would be a much more straight forward way of motoring if there's no wind for 8 hours and you want to get going.  Red and black bits below are the ICE, green bit on the right is the electric motor and on the left I think its the alternator, silver bit in the middle is the transmission - would be a sail drive naturally.

    You're talking about a parallel hybrid and there are many versions of this in the Automotive industry. There are also a few versions in the marine industry, most notable on bigger boats and a couple of versions for smaller boats do exist. The interesting thing with series hybrids is that you can place the power making unit/s (ICEs) anywhere and the small drive units (Electric motors) in optimal places. Risk is if the electrical bits stop working you are screwed. So proven reliability is key. 

    So to answer your question number 1 and 2: Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. 

    Our mission is to create fast family friendly CRUISING boats first, that work reliably... and then you can take them racing if you want. The hybrid technology is just about ready to fit into this mission statement. Finger is still on the pulse is all I can say. 

    25 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

    3.  The race rig adds risk in terms of making it easier to overpower the boat over the cruiser rig.  Do the long, asymmetric daggerboards increase your risks in any area?


    Simple answer is that if you had one reef in the main, you have a "cruising rig". Think about it more as having the horsepower available when you need it in light air. Condor's boards are both Symmetric. I think we explained that in our daggerboard article, but there are certain angles that make the Asymmetric worth it, but then you need to tack the boards every time. For Condor's race+cruise program they chose the simpler option as the gain was not worth the hassle. Same thing applies, in heavy seas where you want to reduce power and stop yourself being tripped up by the board/s, just pull them up. You just have more available for extra lift, when required.

    30 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

    4.  I know you can't disclose the details of your arrangement with VPLP, but as I understand it they typically get a percentage of each boat sold.  Can you share anything as to what the cost would be if someone commissioned a project on that scale from VPLP?


    • Like 4
  21. 14 hours ago, mpenman said:

    I'm curious as to why you switched after Hall had done all the initial work. Lorima seem to the multihull go to folks now in the rig department. Why they switch?

     BTW, condor looks great. I'll give a shout out to Miles, he's a great captain. Always incredibly nice to talk to.

    How are you mpenman? Condor's crew are top notch, the boat still looks like new! Lots of attention to detail.

    The rig subject is one I can't get into too much detail, it is a long story, but we've never been married to one supplier. We see Hall and Lorima, with the right project management, as on par with one another. They have their strengths and weaknesses. The decision is partly client, cost, delivery driven - it is all in the melting pot. Rig world is a surprisingly fast changing sector of the industry. 

    What I can confirm is 6802 (Dash) and 6803 have Lorima rigs. Just to stem any concerns, we did not switch because of any negative technical reasons, Hall built a fantastic product for Condor that is performing as designed and was on target weight. Who knows, Hall may be doing another Gunboat 68 rig soon. 




    • Like 2
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