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Builder's Report


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I’m sitting in the JAL lounge at Tokyo waiting for the flight home to San Diego after a 4 day visit to the builder’s yard in Xiamen, China. It was a very good trip and I come away with many positive thoughts and a whole lot of work to do to get this ship moving again.

 

This was my second visit to Hansheng. My son Kyle and I first went in March 2006 as FT 10 hull number one was just being completed. The yard is alive and well with many projects in the works both for the Chinese market and for export. They are well managed and have retained much of the same experienced work force that I met some 3 years ago. I am pleased to have such a strong partner in this project and we were able to solve all of our outstanding issues. Admittedly it’s a challenging market at the moment for boat sales of any kind but I am confident that things will improve and that our product line is well situated for when the wind does fill in.

 

We are shipping 2 FT 7.5 models to San Diego before the end of this year. They will available for purchase and placement into the charter fleet at Harbor Sailboats. Charter placement provides the owner an opportunity to the defray costs while sailing as much as he or she likes. There will be a maximum of 5 boats available for purchase under this program that will also form the nucleolus of the San Diego One Design fleet. In other words your boat earns income, we maintain it, you race the full one design schedule, and the fleet is born. Call me if you want more information.

 

Now about the FT 10. I understand that is the reason why most of you are here and we have not lost our drive for this boat. While at the yard we went over many technical items related to the build and fitting out of the 10. I am keenly aware that many current owners are concerned with the need for some aftermarket improvements to the boat. We have looked closely at this situation are committed to continual improvement of the build. There will always be a need to balance performance with costs but never at the expense of seaworthiness. Neither we nor our partners have any interest in building a “cheap” product. Our goal is to provide the highest quality vessel at great value to their owners with no compromises that effect safety. As the fleet evolves and determines what improvements are needed we will listen closely and if possible, incorporate them into the build.

 

I suggest that all FT 10 owners stay involved with the class association and the decisions regarding technical discussions. Make sure your voice is heard as somewhere between extremes is consensus. And above all get out, sail your boat and have fun. It’s the best way to protect your investment.

 

The Flying Tiger was born here and has enjoyed much early success. As we regroup our efforts we will continue to sponsor this forum and take the good with the bad.

And now I am going to get on an aluminum can, pop a few Tylenol PM and wake up in Los Angeles.

 

Tom Hirsh

 

[email protected] cell 619-889-9568

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I'm sitting in the JAL lounge at Tokyo waiting for the flight home to San Diego after a 4 day visit to the builder's yard in Xiamen, China. It was a very good trip and I come away with many positive thoughts and a whole lot of work to do to get this ship moving again.

 

This was my second visit to Hansheng. My son Kyle and I first went in March 2006 as FT 10 hull number one was just being completed. The yard is alive and well with many projects in the works both for the Chinese market and for export. They are well managed and have retained much of the same experienced work force that I met some 3 years ago. I am pleased to have such a strong partner in this project and we were able to solve all of our outstanding issues. Admittedly it's a challenging market at the moment for boat sales of any kind but I am confident that things will improve and that our product line is well situated for when the wind does fill in.

 

We are shipping 2 FT 7.5 models to San Diego before the end of this year. They will available for purchase and placement into the charter fleet at Harbor Sailboats. Charter placement provides the owner an opportunity to the defray costs while sailing as much as he or she likes. There will be a maximum of 5 boats available for purchase under this program that will also form the nucleolus of the San Diego One Design fleet. In other words your boat earns income, we maintain it, you race the full one design schedule, and the fleet is born. Call me if you want more information.

 

Now about the FT 10. I understand that is the reason why most of you are here and we have not lost our drive for this boat. While at the yard we went over many technical items related to the build and fitting out of the 10. I am keenly aware that many current owners are concerned with the need for some aftermarket improvements to the boat. We have looked closely at this situation are committed to continual improvement of the build. There will always be a need to balance performance with costs but never at the expense of seaworthiness. Neither we nor our partners have any interest in building a "cheap" product. Our goal is to provide the highest quality vessel at great value to their owners with no compromises that effect safety. As the fleet evolves and determines what improvements are needed we will listen closely and if possible, incorporate them into the build.

 

I suggest that all FT 10 owners stay involved with the class association and the decisions regarding technical discussions. Make sure your voice is heard as somewhere between extremes is consensus. And above all get out, sail your boat and have fun. It's the best way to protect your investment.

 

The Flying Tiger was born here and has enjoyed much early success. As we regroup our efforts we will continue to sponsor this forum and take the good with the bad.

And now I am going to get on an aluminum can, pop a few Tylenol PM and wake up in Los Angeles.

 

Tom Hirsh

 

[email protected] cell 619-889-9568

 

Tom,

 

Sounds like you are on a good path to get the FT rolling along. I agree with you that if well executed, it can be a great boat for the market - even in a tough market.

 

If I may offer a suggestion (if you are ready for it) is to publish what the current deal is - i.e. price, terms, what you get with the boat (full list of features/specs), items that are under consideration for upgrade (i.e. rudder, running rigging, sails, SS that doesn't turn brown when it is withn 5 miles of saltwater, whatever). I am sure (I surely hope so) you have a better appreciation than Bill that prospective customers would like to know axactly what they are getting rather than "you will be happy with what we get you"

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Thanks for keeping us informed.

 

Also, thanks for inviting input. I hope that the owners could come up with a frame work to submit suggested improvements that can simultaneously meet approval of the class and builder. For example, submitting suggestions to the technical committee. I look forward to the process.

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I’m sitting in the JAL lounge at Tokyo waiting for the flight home to San Diego after a 4 day visit to the builder’s yard in Xiamen, China. It was a very good trip and I come away with many positive thoughts and a whole lot of work to do to get this ship moving again.

 

This was my second visit to Hansheng. My son Kyle and I first went in March 2006 as FT 10 hull number one was just being completed. The yard is alive and well with many projects in the works both for the Chinese market and for export. They are well managed and have retained much of the same experienced work force that I met some 3 years ago. I am pleased to have such a strong partner in this project and we were able to solve all of our outstanding issues. Admittedly it’s a challenging market at the moment for boat sales of any kind but I am confident that things will improve and that our product line is well situated for when the wind does fill in.

 

We are shipping 2 FT 7.5 models to San Diego before the end of this year. They will available for purchase and placement into the charter fleet at Harbor Sailboats. Charter placement provides the owner an opportunity to the defray costs while sailing as much as he or she likes. There will be a maximum of 5 boats available for purchase under this program that will also form the nucleolus of the San Diego One Design fleet. In other words your boat earns income, we maintain it, you race the full one design schedule, and the fleet is born. Call me if you want more information.

 

Now about the FT 10. I understand that is the reason why most of you are here and we have not lost our drive for this boat. While at the yard we went over many technical items related to the build and fitting out of the 10. I am keenly aware that many current owners are concerned with the need for some aftermarket improvements to the boat. We have looked closely at this situation are committed to continual improvement of the build. There will always be a need to balance performance with costs but never at the expense of seaworthiness. Neither we nor our partners have any interest in building a “cheap” product. Our goal is to provide the highest quality vessel at great value to their owners with no compromises that effect safety. As the fleet evolves and determines what improvements are needed we will listen closely and if possible, incorporate them into the build.

 

I suggest that all FT 10 owners stay involved with the class association and the decisions regarding technical discussions. Make sure your voice is heard as somewhere between extremes is consensus. And above all get out, sail your boat and have fun. It’s the best way to protect your investment.

 

The Flying Tiger was born here and has enjoyed much early success. As we regroup our efforts we will continue to sponsor this forum and take the good with the bad.

And now I am going to get on an aluminum can, pop a few Tylenol PM and wake up in Los Angeles.

 

Tom Hirsh

 

[email protected] cell 619-889-9568

 

man, its a darn shame you didn't get involved earlier....with your attitude and ability to communicate, you have a chance of turning this around.

 

good luck.

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Monster:

From what I have heard from Tom while he was at the yard it appears that everything is taken care of.

I am optimistic. I think with Tom we have a good man for the job.

Thanks for asking.

 

 

Sounds good. Its really a cool boat, good to see all this new enthusiasm.

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Monster:

From what I have heard from Tom while he was at the yard it appears that everything is taken care of.

I am optimistic. I think with Tom we have a good man for the job.

Thanks for asking.

 

 

Sounds good. Its really a cool boat, good to see all this new enthusiasm.

 

So I should start thinking about the FT 7.5 again?

 

FB- Doug

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Monster:

From what I have heard from Tom while he was at the yard it appears that everything is taken care of.

I am optimistic. I think with Tom we have a good man for the job.

Thanks for asking.

 

 

Sounds good. Its really a cool boat, good to see all this new enthusiasm.

 

So I should start thinking about the FT 7.5 again?

 

FB- Doug

 

Yep. It's a good boat.

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it's a really good boat and tom is a good dude and without question, the right guy to lead the charge. i hope that the hundreds of people out for the hot rum series noticed our flying tiger sailing, in around and away from all the other 'normal' boats. honestly, i can't imagine a better boat for san diego and like areas....

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From conversations I've had with PHRF'ers sailing CRA events and J/105 OD'ers, there's no doubt tigers are being noticed in a very positive way--what I most often hear is how fun they look. With Tom getting the commercial side on track and a group of passionate owners who love the boat to help push the class along, we're in great shape to start building the fleet again.

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I'm sitting in the JAL lounge at Tokyo waiting for the flight home to San Diego after a 4 day visit to the builder's yard in Xiamen, China. It was a very good trip and I come away with many positive thoughts and a whole lot of work to do to get this ship moving again.

 

This was my second visit to Hansheng. My son Kyle and I first went in March 2006 as FT 10 hull number one was just being completed. The yard is alive and well with many projects in the works both for the Chinese market and for export. They are well managed and have retained much of the same experienced work force that I met some 3 years ago. I am pleased to have such a strong partner in this project and we were able to solve all of our outstanding issues. Admittedly it's a challenging market at the moment for boat sales of any kind but I am confident that things will improve and that our product line is well situated for when the wind does fill in.

 

We are shipping 2 FT 7.5 models to San Diego before the end of this year. They will available for purchase and placement into the charter fleet at Harbor Sailboats. Charter placement provides the owner an opportunity to the defray costs while sailing as much as he or she likes. There will be a maximum of 5 boats available for purchase under this program that will also form the nucleolus of the San Diego One Design fleet. In other words your boat earns income, we maintain it, you race the full one design schedule, and the fleet is born. Call me if you want more information.

 

Now about the FT 10. I understand that is the reason why most of you are here and we have not lost our drive for this boat. While at the yard we went over many technical items related to the build and fitting out of the 10. I am keenly aware that many current owners are concerned with the need for some aftermarket improvements to the boat. We have looked closely at this situation are committed to continual improvement of the build. There will always be a need to balance performance with costs but never at the expense of seaworthiness. Neither we nor our partners have any interest in building a "cheap" product. Our goal is to provide the highest quality vessel at great value to their owners with no compromises that effect safety. As the fleet evolves and determines what improvements are needed we will listen closely and if possible, incorporate them into the build.

 

I suggest that all FT 10 owners stay involved with the class association and the decisions regarding technical discussions. Make sure your voice is heard as somewhere between extremes is consensus. And above all get out, sail your boat and have fun. It's the best way to protect your investment.

 

The Flying Tiger was born here and has enjoyed much early success. As we regroup our efforts we will continue to sponsor this forum and take the good with the bad.

And now I am going to get on an aluminum can, pop a few Tylenol PM and wake up in Los Angeles.

 

Tom Hirsh

 

[email protected] cell 619-889-9568

Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for good and also the s.s. fittings discolouring from what I read . Can you do it ? Up the price if need be.

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Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for good and also the s.s. fittings discolouring from what I read . Can you do it ? Up the price if need be.

 

Not trying to speak for Tom, but what mast problem? The rudder problem is well on it's way to being solved. Many owner have bought new life lines which is the only s.s that discoloured. So if you don't mind the price being uped buy your own lifelines and the new Kernan rudder. Problem solved, :D you got yourself a great boat!! :rolleyes:

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Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for good and also the s.s. fittings discolouring from what I read . Can you do it ? Up the price if need be.

 

Not trying to speak for Tom, but what mast problem? The rudder problem is well on it's way to being solved. Many owner have bought new life lines which is the only s.s that discoloured. So if you don't mind the price being uped buy your own lifelines and the new Kernan rudder. Problem solved, :D you got yourself a great boat!! :rolleyes:

 

probably referring to the mast in Australia that broke recently...seems like they blamed the lack of Spartite or equivalent as the source of friction at the partners...

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probably referring to the mast in Australia that broke recently...seems like they blamed the lack of Spartite or equivalent as the source of friction at the partners...

 

Agreeded, just so it is understood that was user error and not a fault of the mast.

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Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for good and also the s.s. fittings discolouring from what I read . Can you do it ? Up the price if need be.

 

Not trying to speak for Tom, but what mast problem? The rudder problem is well on it's way to being solved. Many owner have bought new life lines which is the only s.s that discoloured. So if you don't mind the price being uped buy your own lifelines and the new Kernan rudder. Problem solved, :D you got yourself a great boat!! :rolleyes:

 

probably referring to the mast in Australia that broke recently...seems like they blamed the lack of Spartite or equivalent as the source of friction at the partners...

 

the mast is supplied with a pair of "clam shells" that should be bonded to the mast at the partners. These are fiberglass wear "protectors" to take the abuse, avoid direct contact with the carbon mast and to spread any loads over the greater area of the "clam shells". Apparently he did not know what to do with them.

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well, that solves the mast issue....

 

does it make sense to just outsource the rudder to the Kernan team or whomever? either way, have a carbon specialist build them, ala the mast

 

the builder should be the one supplying any redesigned rudder or any other developments, not some third party supplier. Any development / refinement should be incorporated by the builder for any new purchases. Anyone getting a new boat would be current and avoid the need to go to a third party source to be current. It is counter to call a class OD and need to get upgrades elsewhere. Currently there is the Harken furler upgrade which is about $3000 +/-and the class is considering another $3000 +/- for a new rudder. A new purchaser should get a current up to date "kit" without additional expense. Existing owners can make a choice of upgrade or not.

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We are following closely the rudder debate and are not convinced at this time that the aftermarket rudders are any stronger than the current standard edition that comes from the builder. If our engineering and design team determines an upgrade is required from a structural standpoint then we will incorporate it into the build. The rudder profile will not likely change. If the class approves an aftermarket rudder my preference would be that it does not put the standard rudder at a performance disadvantage. The One Design aspect of the boat is very important to us and will be defended in the best interest of the class association.

 

Tom Hirsh

Flying Tiger Boats

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

i'll be honest, i'm not interested in starting this debate all over again, but the rudder is a problem for many. we win a lot because we sail the shit out of the boat, but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

the class/builder has a responsibility to correct this flawed rudder/cassette design and build, and if they don't there are going to be a lot of people asking, "wtf?"

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

i'll be honest, i'm not interested in starting this debate all over again, but the rudder is a problem for many. we win a lot because we sail the shit out of the boat, but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

the class/builder has a responsibility to correct this flawed rudder/cassette design and build, and if they don't there are going to be a lot of people asking, "wtf?"

 

the builder is on it...see post 19 above... you would be complaining about being sore from having too much sex :P

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

 

 

I've got a cracked aftermarket rudder sitting in my office right now. Granted, the builder knew it was a bad layup before he sent it out but it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just saying that the majority of the early owners had requested a lifting rudder. A well built cassette system is as strong or stronger than a single blade system. My only interest is to supply a seaworthy product. If the class determines that a single piece carbon system is allowed or preferable then we will give serious consideration to designing and building one for all future deliveries and sold at cost to current owners.

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

 

 

I've got a cracked aftermarket rudder sitting in my office right now. Granted, the builder knew it was a bad layup before he sent it out but it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just saying that the majority of the early owners had requested a lifting rudder. A well built cassette system is as strong or stronger than a single blade system. My only interest is to supply a seaworthy product. If the class determines that a single piece carbon system is allowed or preferable then we will give serious consideration to designing and building one for all future deliveries and sold at cost to current owners.

 

Tom-

The blade that apparently is now sitting in your office was built as a demo for the SA regatta in San Diego and was built very quickly to make that event. Some bias material needed for the head lay-up was not available so the blade was shipped without it. We had no idea that the blade would be sent around and used for months. These blades have been retrofitted to several Columbia 30s and have been in use for over a year with no issues. The builder would actually like to have the blade returned and if you do have it would appreciate it if you could contact Scot so he can get it back.

 

I have already made some comments that Scot posted with regard to the advantages of this type of rudder geometry and construction. The class can decide what it wants to do moving forward, but obviously the current system is problematic- that's probably why I was approached to design a better blade. Carbon Race Products would be happy to build them for whoever wants them and the price is reasonable. Hansheng builds my outbound 52 design and I have been there many times. They don't have the capability to build this type of blade (yet) so regardless of which way the class goes in my opinion it would be unwise to have them supplying this type of blade.

Tim K

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well, that solves the mast issue....

 

does it make sense to just outsource the rudder to the Kernan team or whomever? either way, have a carbon specialist build them, ala the mast

 

the builder should be the one supplying any redesigned rudder or any other developments, not some third party supplier. Any development / refinement should be incorporated by the builder for any new purchases. Anyone getting a new boat would be current and avoid the need to go to a third party source to be current. It is counter to call a class OD and need to get upgrades elsewhere. Currently there is the Harken furler upgrade which is about $3000 +/-and the class is considering another $3000 +/- for a new rudder. A new purchaser should get a current up to date "kit" without additional expense. Existing owners can make a choice of upgrade or not.

Right on and as soon as they do this, I'll be ordering a boat and hopefully get the class going here.

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

 

 

I've got a cracked aftermarket rudder sitting in my office right now. Granted, the builder knew it was a bad layup before he sent it out but it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just saying that the majority of the early owners had requested a lifting rudder. A well built cassette system is as strong or stronger than a single blade system. My only interest is to supply a seaworthy product. If the class determines that a single piece carbon system is allowed or preferable then we will give serious consideration to designing and building one for all future deliveries and sold at cost to current owners.

 

Tom-

The blade that apparently is now sitting in your office was built as a demo for the SA regatta in San Diego and was built very quickly to make that event. Some bias material needed for the head lay-up was not available so the blade was shipped without it. We had no idea that the blade would be sent around and used for months. These blades have been retrofitted to several Columbia 30s and have been in use for over a year with no issues. The builder would actually like to have the blade returned and if you do have it would appreciate it if you could contact Scot so he can get it back.

 

I have already made some comments that Scot posted with regard to the advantages of this type of rudder geometry and construction. The class can decide what it wants to do moving forward, but obviously the current system is problematic- that's probably why I was approached to design a better blade. Carbon Race Products would be happy to build them for whoever wants them and the price is reasonable. Hansheng builds my outbound 52 design and I have been there many times. They don't have the capability to build this type of blade (yet) so regardless of which way the class goes in my opinion it would be unwise to have them supplying this type of blade.

Tim K

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

 

 

I've got a cracked aftermarket rudder sitting in my office right now. Granted, the builder knew it was a bad layup before he sent it out but it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just saying that the majority of the early owners had requested a lifting rudder. A well built cassette system is as strong or stronger than a single blade system. My only interest is to supply a seaworthy product. If the class determines that a single piece carbon system is allowed or preferable then we will give serious consideration to designing and building one for all future deliveries and sold at cost to current owners.

 

Tom-

The blade that apparently is now sitting in your office was built as a demo for the SA regatta in San Diego and was built very quickly to make that event. Some bias material needed for the head lay-up was not available so the blade was shipped without it. We had no idea that the blade would be sent around and used for months. These blades have been retrofitted to several Columbia 30s and have been in use for over a year with no issues. The builder would actually like to have the blade returned and if you do have it would appreciate it if you could contact Scot so he can get it back.

 

I have already made some comments that Scot posted with regard to the advantages of this type of rudder geometry and construction. The class can decide what it wants to do moving forward, but obviously the current system is problematic- that's probably why I was approached to design a better blade. Carbon Race Products would be happy to build them for whoever wants them and the price is reasonable. Hansheng builds my outbound 52 design and I have been there many times. They don't have the capability to build this type of blade (yet) so regardless of which way the class goes in my opinion it would be unwise to have them supplying this type of blade.

Tim K

Fair Enough

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Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for good and also the s.s. fittings discolouring from what I read . Can you do it ? Up the price if need be.

 

Not trying to speak for Tom, but what mast problem? The rudder problem is well on it's way to being solved. Many owner have bought new life lines which is the only s.s that discoloured. So if you don't mind the price being uped buy your own lifelines and the new Kernan rudder. Problem solved, :D you got yourself a great boat!! :rolleyes:

As earlier posted the Aussie boats had jib halyard and sheave box probs and then we read of Panthera's mast collapse. Get this sorted and tested and then we'll buy our boat.

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So when are you sending your deposit?

The "sheave box problem" was with a fractional halyard installed after the owner took delivery. Not a standard item so not the fault of the factory.

Panthera's mast problem was due to the owner admitingly not installing either the collars or Spartite and it still lasted well over a year.

Even with all of the talk of rudder issues, not counting the long gone version one system on the first few boats, how many rudders/cassettes have ever failed while sailing? None- they were all caught in plenty of time before failure and replaced. (Not even sure a cassette would actually fail as they have a metal core inside. No wonder they are heavy!)

Over 100 FT10s are out sailing and those are the issues? Not a bad record.

You say you do not mind paying slightly more for a boat that is "fixed" so I am sure that Tom would be happy to supply other lifelines.

The proof is in the current and past owners. I would say that 99+% are happy overall with the boat. Not many boats can claim that.

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Over 100 FT10s are out sailing and those are the issues? Not a bad record.

The proof is in the current and past owners. I would say that 99+% are happy overall with the boat. Not many boats can claim that.

 

despite a few nits here and there - this is going to be one kick ass class in another year or two. Glad to see it pressing on this way.

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Regarding the various problems raised:

 

The jib sheave boxes do appear to need some work even on stock mast set-ups. I had mine inspected after seeing the various posts here, and, sure enough, it has started to come loose, so we'll reattach it along the lines detailed by EWS in another thread. It is really a very minor thing to get right on future boats and to retrofit on current boats, and I have no doubt that Tom will look into it to make sure it is done right on new boats.

 

The mast collapse has happened on two boats, both due to the mast not being supported as recommended by the mast builder where it goes through the deck. The mast needs the clam-shell protectors supplied by the builder and needs to be spar-tited where it goes through the deck. There have been no problems on boats set up as per instructions.

 

I would like to see a lighter rudder, to make it easier to put in and take out. I'm willing to require corrector weights to make it fair for existing boats that don't want to upgrade. However, I do think this is a great opportunity to explore new designs (shapes) as well, especially to enhance high speed stability. It's not uncommon in one-design classes to look at improvments to foils and particularly rudders at this stage (about 100 boats). We do need to work closely with Tom on this however to do it in a way that is not a hang up for new boat orders--we don't want to win the battle (better rudder) and lose the war (selling new boats).

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Gimme,

did you get a chance to talk with ChinYew? I think he was supposed to be in your hood for the king cup. You'd get some first hand feedback on one of the last hulls built. He seems to be enjoying his tiger in hong kong.

 

Cazza

 

Right on and as soon as they do this, I'll be ordering a boat and hopefully get the class going here.

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The rudder profile will not likely change. The One Design aspect of the boat is very important to us and will be defended in the best interest of the class association.

 

 

the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

 

but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

Tom,

 

Ed's put his finger on it - when the boat powers up under Kite the rudder can just lose it. This is a real pain in the higher winds we sail in down here in Sydney. Our typical Saturday race in summer is a 20+ knot nor-easterly belting in and right up the guts of Sydney harbour. Every time we run shy in these breezes we're always on edge, waiting for the rudder to stop working.

 

In lighter breezes - SD breezes - it's never a problem. When we get light breeze days (10-15 knots) the boat works magnificently. A joy to be on. Unfortunately that's only about 2 races a season around here. I know the common feeling in Sydney is that the rudder needs to be redesigned to work better for our conditions.

 

I agree with you about the one design being important and the answer is this: redesign the foil and then make the new foil the one-design.

 

That way the boat will excel in both wind regimes, there will be more ports you can sell multiple boats into and the one-design will stay intact. The important thing will be to keep the replacement rudder price down close to cost so that existing owners can retro-fit without too much pain and then take the profit in the increased hull sales that will flow once word gets around that the new 'standard' design fixes the boat for higher winds.

 

If that's too hard, design a standard 'high-wind' rudder and let the local fleets make that a local one-design condition. I understand that forcing every SD tiger owner to buy a new rudder might upset them as they don't see the need for it. But make it mandatory for OD in Sydney and you'd probably have 10 orders in a week without complaint.

 

Then, in the future, if we ever get to national or world OD races, the class association can decide which rudder to specify.

 

In the end, if you don't redesign the rudder yourself, a number of owners in the higher-wind areas are just going to go and get their own made. Wouldn't it be better to have an 'official' high-wind option than a plethora of alternatives?

 

PS - Thank you for taking the design on and forging ahead. Love that you're happy to talk and post and discuss. We'd love to see you in Sydney to see what we're doing down here!

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

i'll be honest, i'm not interested in starting this debate all over again, but the rudder is a problem for many. we win a lot because we sail the shit out of the boat, but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

the class/builder has a responsibility to correct this flawed rudder/cassette design and build, and if they don't there are going to be a lot of people asking, "wtf?"

 

the builder is on it...see post 19 above... you would be complaining about being sore from having too much sex :P

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

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here is a

you mention...

 

Cazza

 

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

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Just a note on Panthera's mast collapse,

I do believe that was operator error, compounded by a bad design that has since been corrected.

The internal stainless steel ring around the partners was the wrong size on the first couple of boats and allowed the mast to touch hard a stainless plate before the F/g moulding. This was corrected in later boats.

The sleeves were fitted to the mast, when they became available, but already the mast had a slight scar.

Spartight or some form of wedges were not used in the partners, and if they are believed to be essential they should be supplied with the boat.

The rudder design will continue to be the worst feature of the boat, and perhaps the reason why I would not try to sell a new boat to a friend. Until a new lighter system is available, vertically aligned with proper balance forward of the pivot, the class will struggle. The time is 'now' to change with the new ownership broom.

Any other approach will be a head in the sand failure.

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Gimme,

did you get a chance to talk with ChinYew? I think he was supposed to be in your hood for the king cup. You'd get some first hand feedback on one of the last hulls built. He seems to be enjoying his tiger in hong kong.

 

Cazza

 

Right on and as soon as they do this, I'll be ordering a boat and hopefully get the class going here.

 

Thanks Cazza, no, I sent him my tel. no. but I guess he didn't show for the Kings Cup. Regards, the mast and rudder I'm happy with all your answers, looks like we plug for I.R.C. 3.

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Just a note on Panthera's mast collapse,

I do believe that was operator error, compounded by a bad design that has since been corrected.

The internal stainless steel ring around the partners was the wrong size on the first couple of boats and allowed the mast to touch hard a stainless plate before the F/g moulding. This was corrected in later boats.

The sleeves were fitted to the mast, when they became available, but already the mast had a slight scar.

Spartight or some form of wedges were not used in the partners, and if they are believed to be essential they should be supplied with the boat.

The rudder design will continue to be the worst feature of the boat, and perhaps the reason why I would not try to sell a new boat to a friend. Until a new lighter system is available, vertically aligned with proper balance forward of the pivot, the class will struggle. The time is 'now' to change with the new ownership broom.

Any other approach will be a head in the sand failure.

 

 

while were at it with the sweeping changes what about binning the furler or making it optional, you wouldn't lose any friends around here if you did

 

also we've fitted adjustable jib cars (the ropey kind not the pinny kind) and use them to great effect. Seems like on a performance yacht of this size its a bit more suitable than getting 2 crew to stand on the sheet to move the pin :blink:

 

as for the rudder issue. There is no win win here the way I see it.

 

the owner of the tiger i sail on would hate me to say it but you have to think of your future customers not your past customers

 

the tiger will be a better boat with a new rudder, for gods sake though get it as perfect as possible or you'll have a massive shitfight on your hands

 

this means getting it designed by a genius and no doubt paying for it. No offence toward the guys doing the R and D on the new one being offered (I haven't even seen the new one yet) but if it is a really, really great rudder it'll be a much more appealing scenario for all the current owners and more will upgrade

 

the last thing you need are people swapping rudders for different races especially when the current one is so bloody heavy!!!!

 

 

Also tom I think the advice offered by jay above is not to be taken lightly I won't out him here but i suggest a private conversation between you could be very helpful indeed and he's a nice bloke too

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

i'll be honest, i'm not interested in starting this debate all over again, but the rudder is a problem for many. we win a lot because we sail the shit out of the boat, but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

the class/builder has a responsibility to correct this flawed rudder/cassette design and build, and if they don't there are going to be a lot of people asking, "wtf?"

 

the builder is on it...see post 19 above... you would be complaining about being sore from having too much sex :P

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

 

Ever heard the phrase " beauty is in the eye of the beholder", that is why there are so many designs on the market, if you don't like the boat, OK. If you are the owner, you must have seen the boat before the purchase, if you are not the owner, who cares! Everyone has an opinion. Just because the boat may not be sailed to it's potential is not justification to trash the design.

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Congrats to the class for picking Tom up as the new rep; he runs a large charter boat operation and believe he will bring the ability to make solid cost / benefit decisions that should serve the association well.

 

The only reason I did not buy an FT was that I could not make the time commitment to the OD schedule.

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here is a
you mention...

 

Cazza

 

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

 

 

Here is an article about Max Fun 35, a would be one design developed and marketed by cheap Dutchmen, that was DOA (pun intended).

 

 

Hooligan V – Report on loss of keel

 

July 18, 2007

 

The UK MAIB report has been released

 

During the late evening of 2 February 2007, the owner and four crew of the Max Fun 35 yacht Hooligan V sailed from Plymouth towards Southampton following out of season repairs and maintenance. At about 0320 UTC on 3 February, the boat’s keel became detached and the boat suddenly capsized causing the loss of life of one crew member.

 

The skipper/owner, two experienced watch leaders and two new crew arrived at Hooligan V’s berth at about 1630 on 2 February. The boat was checked out and the two new crew members were briefed on the safety gear, equipment and sailing procedures. At 2335 the boat passed Plymouth breakwater. There was an 8 -10 knot north-easterly wind, and the mainsail and genoa were rigged. Just before midnight the first reef was put in the mainsail. The boat was on a port tack, heeling about 15º to starboard and making about 7-8 knots over the ground. Soon afterwards, one of the watch leaders and one of the crew went to their bunks. The owner followed at 0045, after putting the second reef in the mainsail. By 0245 the wind had increased to 25 knots, gusting 35 knots, and the boat was heeling 25º to starboard. At 0300 the relief crew arrived on deck. At 0315 the heel increased to 30º and preparations were made to put the third reef in the mainsail, the genoa having already been 2/3 furled.

 

Before the mainsail could be reefed, the list rapidly increased, and at about 0320 the boat very quickly inverted, trapping the skipper inside the cabin. Once in the water, three of the crew found their way to the transom and immediately noticed that the keel was missing. As they set about cutting the liferaft lashings, the skipper managed to push the flare box and grab bag out of the cabin. These floated to the surface and the flares were set off. At the third attempt, the skipper escaped from the cabin, but there was no sign of the fourth crew member.

 

Fortunately the crew managed to free the liferaft and set off more flares. The crew were finally rescued at 0430 by a nearby ship. The body of the missing crew member was recovered by Salcombe lifeboat at 0655.

 

Investigations found that the fabricated steel keel had failed just below the fillet weld connecting the fin to the taper box (Figure 1). Laboratory metallurgical analysis confirmed that the keel had suffered fatigue failure in the fillet weld area, which had been subjected to high bending stresses. Defects were also found in the keel taper box welds, and two of the three keel bolts had also failed.

 

It was further discovered that the builder had sub-contracted the hollow keel construction to a steel fabricator who had no marine experience. The fabricator changed the original design, and incorporated a fillet weld in a critical area, to ease manufacture and reduce costs, but without the supporting calculations to assess the stresses to which the keel would be subjected (Figure 2). He did not consult on the changes with the designer. Although the designer was made aware of the keel changes by the boat builder, he did not validate them. In 2005 the owner contracted a UK yacht designer to optimise the yacht for IRM and IRC racing purposes. This involved adding 160kg of lead to the keel bulb.

 

Once again, there were no supporting calculations, nor were checks made against the “original” or “as built” design drawings to ensure that the modification would not adversely affect the design to cope with the “in service“ loads. Analysis of the “original” design calculations confirmed that they did not achieve the required Safety Factor of 2. The “as built” keel safety calculations were worse, and these were exacerbated by the addition of the extra bulb weight. The fabricated keel was unable to withstand the “in service” bending stresses and this led to the conditions of failure.

 

When the boat was taken out of the water at the end of the 2006 racing season, considerable detachment of the keel’s epoxy filler and anti-fouling was found. There was also evidence of possible fine cracking in the steel adjacent to the fillet weld, but this went undetected and so the last chance to prevent the accident was missed.

 

Safety Issues

Despite a statement by the designer that the Max Fun 35 was built to ABS standards for yacht design, the minimum Safety Factor of 2 was not achieved. The reason for this is that he used the keel steel ultimate tensile strength instead of yield strength in his calculations. The Recreational Craft Sectoral Group urges those in the marine industry to use the ISO standards listed in its Guidelines to avoid confusion and adopt a common approach.

 

It is not possible to state whether a keel built to the designer’s specification would have failed because it was the fabricator’s design that was fitted to all of the Class. However, the designer, having been made aware of changes, should have checked that they were appropriate and did not compromise safety. The addition of bulb weight was not supported by calculations, and neither was reference made to the design drawings. Where possible, drawings should be consulted and suitability of the changes discussed with the designer/builder.

 

None of the yachts inspected had the required EU marking showing RCD compliance. No builder’s plates were fitted and there were no Declarations of RCD Conformity.

The repairer was not sufficiently experienced to appreciate why the keel filler and coating detachment occurred. He occupied himself with removing the corrosion products and priming the bare keel metal rather than finding the reason for the detachment which was probably due to keel flexing. Fabricated steel keels are vulnerable to bending stresses. Where there is doubt, repairers should seek advice on the suitability of using Non-Destructive Examination techniques to determine the keel condition.

 

__________________________________________

 

UK Marine Accident Investigation Board full report (pdf file, 3MB)

 

Good article from UK’s Yachting Monthly, October 2007 (pdf file, 5MB)

 

___________________________________________

Pictures taken by Salcombe Lifeboat during attempted recovery: (click to enlarge)

 

 

 

hooligan2.jpghooligan1.jpg

post-55-1260375499_thumb.jpg

post-55-1260375535_thumb.jpg

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here is a
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Cazza

 

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

 

 

Here is an article about Max Fun 35, a would be one design developed and marketed by cheap Dutchmen, that was DOA (pun intended).

 

 

Hooligan V – Report on loss of keel

 

Dont know if you are trying to make a serious point or be funny, but either way you fail. The Hooligan/MaxFun story is irrelevant as a response to criticism of the FT and making fun of a disaster in which people died is never funny.

 

 

 

July 18, 2007

 

The UK MAIB report has been released

 

During the late evening of 2 February 2007, the owner and four crew of the Max Fun 35 yacht Hooligan V sailed from Plymouth towards Southampton following out of season repairs and maintenance. At about 0320 UTC on 3 February, the boat’s keel became detached and the boat suddenly capsized causing the loss of life of one crew member.

 

The skipper/owner, two experienced watch leaders and two new crew arrived at Hooligan V’s berth at about 1630 on 2 February. The boat was checked out and the two new crew members were briefed on the safety gear, equipment and sailing procedures. At 2335 the boat passed Plymouth breakwater. There was an 8 -10 knot north-easterly wind, and the mainsail and genoa were rigged. Just before midnight the first reef was put in the mainsail. The boat was on a port tack, heeling about 15º to starboard and making about 7-8 knots over the ground. Soon afterwards, one of the watch leaders and one of the crew went to their bunks. The owner followed at 0045, after putting the second reef in the mainsail. By 0245 the wind had increased to 25 knots, gusting 35 knots, and the boat was heeling 25º to starboard. At 0300 the relief crew arrived on deck. At 0315 the heel increased to 30º and preparations were made to put the third reef in the mainsail, the genoa having already been 2/3 furled.

 

Before the mainsail could be reefed, the list rapidly increased, and at about 0320 the boat very quickly inverted, trapping the skipper inside the cabin. Once in the water, three of the crew found their way to the transom and immediately noticed that the keel was missing. As they set about cutting the liferaft lashings, the skipper managed to push the flare box and grab bag out of the cabin. These floated to the surface and the flares were set off. At the third attempt, the skipper escaped from the cabin, but there was no sign of the fourth crew member.

 

Fortunately the crew managed to free the liferaft and set off more flares. The crew were finally rescued at 0430 by a nearby ship. The body of the missing crew member was recovered by Salcombe lifeboat at 0655.

 

Investigations found that the fabricated steel keel had failed just below the fillet weld connecting the fin to the taper box (Figure 1). Laboratory metallurgical analysis confirmed that the keel had suffered fatigue failure in the fillet weld area, which had been subjected to high bending stresses. Defects were also found in the keel taper box welds, and two of the three keel bolts had also failed.

 

It was further discovered that the builder had sub-contracted the hollow keel construction to a steel fabricator who had no marine experience. The fabricator changed the original design, and incorporated a fillet weld in a critical area, to ease manufacture and reduce costs, but without the supporting calculations to assess the stresses to which the keel would be subjected (Figure 2). He did not consult on the changes with the designer. Although the designer was made aware of the keel changes by the boat builder, he did not validate them. In 2005 the owner contracted a UK yacht designer to optimise the yacht for IRM and IRC racing purposes. This involved adding 160kg of lead to the keel bulb.

 

Once again, there were no supporting calculations, nor were checks made against the “original” or “as built” design drawings to ensure that the modification would not adversely affect the design to cope with the “in service“ loads. Analysis of the “original” design calculations confirmed that they did not achieve the required Safety Factor of 2. The “as built” keel safety calculations were worse, and these were exacerbated by the addition of the extra bulb weight. The fabricated keel was unable to withstand the “in service” bending stresses and this led to the conditions of failure.

 

When the boat was taken out of the water at the end of the 2006 racing season, considerable detachment of the keel’s epoxy filler and anti-fouling was found. There was also evidence of possible fine cracking in the steel adjacent to the fillet weld, but this went undetected and so the last chance to prevent the accident was missed.

 

Safety Issues

Despite a statement by the designer that the Max Fun 35 was built to ABS standards for yacht design, the minimum Safety Factor of 2 was not achieved. The reason for this is that he used the keel steel ultimate tensile strength instead of yield strength in his calculations. The Recreational Craft Sectoral Group urges those in the marine industry to use the ISO standards listed in its Guidelines to avoid confusion and adopt a common approach.

 

It is not possible to state whether a keel built to the designer’s specification would have failed because it was the fabricator’s design that was fitted to all of the Class. However, the designer, having been made aware of changes, should have checked that they were appropriate and did not compromise safety. The addition of bulb weight was not supported by calculations, and neither was reference made to the design drawings. Where possible, drawings should be consulted and suitability of the changes discussed with the designer/builder.

 

None of the yachts inspected had the required EU marking showing RCD compliance. No builder’s plates were fitted and there were no Declarations of RCD Conformity.

The repairer was not sufficiently experienced to appreciate why the keel filler and coating detachment occurred. He occupied himself with removing the corrosion products and priming the bare keel metal rather than finding the reason for the detachment which was probably due to keel flexing. Fabricated steel keels are vulnerable to bending stresses. Where there is doubt, repairers should seek advice on the suitability of using Non-Destructive Examination techniques to determine the keel condition.

 

__________________________________________

 

UK Marine Accident Investigation Board full report (pdf file, 3MB)

 

Good article from UK’s Yachting Monthly, October 2007 (pdf file, 5MB)

 

___________________________________________

Pictures taken by Salcombe Lifeboat during attempted recovery: (click to enlarge)

 

 

 

hooligan2.jpghooligan1.jpg

 

 

here is a
you mention...

 

Cazza

 

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

 

 

Here is an article about Max Fun 35, a would be one design developed and marketed by cheap Dutchmen, that was DOA (pun intended).

 

 

Hooligan V – Report on loss of keel

 

Dont know if you are trying to make a serious point or be funny, but either way you fail. The Hooligan/MaxFun story is irrelevant as a response to criticism of the FT and making fun of a disaster in which people died is never funny.

 

 

 

July 18, 2007

 

The UK MAIB report has been released

 

During the late evening of 2 February 2007, the owner and four crew of the Max Fun 35 yacht Hooligan V sailed from Plymouth towards Southampton following out of season repairs and maintenance. At about 0320 UTC on 3 February, the boat’s keel became detached and the boat suddenly capsized causing the loss of life of one crew member.

 

The skipper/owner, two experienced watch leaders and two new crew arrived at Hooligan V’s berth at about 1630 on 2 February. The boat was checked out and the two new crew members were briefed on the safety gear, equipment and sailing procedures. At 2335 the boat passed Plymouth breakwater. There was an 8 -10 knot north-easterly wind, and the mainsail and genoa were rigged. Just before midnight the first reef was put in the mainsail. The boat was on a port tack, heeling about 15º to starboard and making about 7-8 knots over the ground. Soon afterwards, one of the watch leaders and one of the crew went to their bunks. The owner followed at 0045, after putting the second reef in the mainsail. By 0245 the wind had increased to 25 knots, gusting 35 knots, and the boat was heeling 25º to starboard. At 0300 the relief crew arrived on deck. At 0315 the heel increased to 30º and preparations were made to put the third reef in the mainsail, the genoa having already been 2/3 furled.

 

Before the mainsail could be reefed, the list rapidly increased, and at about 0320 the boat very quickly inverted, trapping the skipper inside the cabin. Once in the water, three of the crew found their way to the transom and immediately noticed that the keel was missing. As they set about cutting the liferaft lashings, the skipper managed to push the flare box and grab bag out of the cabin. These floated to the surface and the flares were set off. At the third attempt, the skipper escaped from the cabin, but there was no sign of the fourth crew member.

 

Fortunately the crew managed to free the liferaft and set off more flares. The crew were finally rescued at 0430 by a nearby ship. The body of the missing crew member was recovered by Salcombe lifeboat at 0655.

 

Investigations found that the fabricated steel keel had failed just below the fillet weld connecting the fin to the taper box (Figure 1). Laboratory metallurgical analysis confirmed that the keel had suffered fatigue failure in the fillet weld area, which had been subjected to high bending stresses. Defects were also found in the keel taper box welds, and two of the three keel bolts had also failed.

 

It was further discovered that the builder had sub-contracted the hollow keel construction to a steel fabricator who had no marine experience. The fabricator changed the original design, and incorporated a fillet weld in a critical area, to ease manufacture and reduce costs, but without the supporting calculations to assess the stresses to which the keel would be subjected (Figure 2). He did not consult on the changes with the designer. Although the designer was made aware of the keel changes by the boat builder, he did not validate them. In 2005 the owner contracted a UK yacht designer to optimise the yacht for IRM and IRC racing purposes. This involved adding 160kg of lead to the keel bulb.

 

Once again, there were no supporting calculations, nor were checks made against the “original” or “as built” design drawings to ensure that the modification would not adversely affect the design to cope with the “in service“ loads. Analysis of the “original” design calculations confirmed that they did not achieve the required Safety Factor of 2. The “as built” keel safety calculations were worse, and these were exacerbated by the addition of the extra bulb weight. The fabricated keel was unable to withstand the “in service” bending stresses and this led to the conditions of failure.

 

When the boat was taken out of the water at the end of the 2006 racing season, considerable detachment of the keel’s epoxy filler and anti-fouling was found. There was also evidence of possible fine cracking in the steel adjacent to the fillet weld, but this went undetected and so the last chance to prevent the accident was missed.

 

Safety Issues

Despite a statement by the designer that the Max Fun 35 was built to ABS standards for yacht design, the minimum Safety Factor of 2 was not achieved. The reason for this is that he used the keel steel ultimate tensile strength instead of yield strength in his calculations. The Recreational Craft Sectoral Group urges those in the marine industry to use the ISO standards listed in its Guidelines to avoid confusion and adopt a common approach.

 

It is not possible to state whether a keel built to the designer’s specification would have failed because it was the fabricator’s design that was fitted to all of the Class. However, the designer, having been made aware of changes, should have checked that they were appropriate and did not compromise safety. The addition of bulb weight was not supported by calculations, and neither was reference made to the design drawings. Where possible, drawings should be consulted and suitability of the changes discussed with the designer/builder.

 

None of the yachts inspected had the required EU marking showing RCD compliance. No builder’s plates were fitted and there were no Declarations of RCD Conformity.

The repairer was not sufficiently experienced to appreciate why the keel filler and coating detachment occurred. He occupied himself with removing the corrosion products and priming the bare keel metal rather than finding the reason for the detachment which was probably due to keel flexing. Fabricated steel keels are vulnerable to bending stresses. Where there is doubt, repairers should seek advice on the suitability of using Non-Destructive Examination techniques to determine the keel condition.

 

__________________________________________

 

UK Marine Accident Investigation Board full report (pdf file, 3MB)

 

Good article from UK’s Yachting Monthly, October 2007 (pdf file, 5MB)

 

___________________________________________

Pictures taken by Salcombe Lifeboat during attempted recovery: (click to enlarge)

 

 

 

hooligan2.jpghooligan1.jpg

 

Dont know if you are trying to make a serious point or be funny, but either way you fail. The Hooligan/MaxFun story is irrelevant as a response to criticism of the FT and making fun of a disaster in which people died is never funny.

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Obviously you missed the point that williwaw who slamed the FT10

 

... Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit.

... So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

is a Dutchme, just like the designers of the Max Fun 35 that capsized.

 

"Those who live in ... " (and so on)

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Obviously you missed the point that williwaw, who slamed the FT10

 

... Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit.

... So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

is a Dutchmen, just like the designers of the Max Fun 35 that capsized.

 

Those who live in ... (and so on)

 

No, I saw that Williwaw had criticised the FT perfectly clearly. He is entitled to do so - and was criticising design not build quality. To respond as you did to the criticism by pointing to the build quality of a totally unrelated boat just because it happened to be designed in your critic's home country is pretty much equivalent to a two year old's tantrum. To use the pictures you used to make your point is cynical and insensitive in the extreme.

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

i'll be honest, i'm not interested in starting this debate all over again, but the rudder is a problem for many. we win a lot because we sail the shit out of the boat, but it is not san diego boats that have the big problems - it is the windy areas that do.

 

the class/builder has a responsibility to correct this flawed rudder/cassette design and build, and if they don't there are going to be a lot of people asking, "wtf?"

 

the builder is on it...see post 19 above... you would be complaining about being sore from having too much sex :P

Why put another effort in the rudder as the whole boats is not from this time.

Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit. A medium sailed mumm 30 is always quicker and I am not a Mumm 30 enthousiast either.

So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

 

Well if you don't like the Mumm and you don't like the Tiger, you must really dig the IRC bathtubs everyone is sailing here.

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

OMG, that fucking thing is a brick. Tip deflection under load is off the charts. A piece of plywood would work better. The new carbon rudder is a solid solution...IMHO.

 

FWIW, I've known Tom for a long time, casually. He's a great guy, has a solid reputation and is a good communicator. This is JUST what the FT Classes needs. His presence will assure a good program for a long time to come.

 

Moreover, I'm 100% certain he will take care of Bob Perry who has earned his money.

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Obviously you missed the point that williwaw, who slamed the FT10

 

... Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit.

... So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

is a Dutchmen, just like the designers of the Max Fun 35 that capsized.

 

Those who live in ... (and so on)

No, I saw that Williwaw had criticised the FT perfectly clearly. He is entitled to do so - and was criticising design not build quality. To respond as you did to the criticism by pointing to the build quality of a totally unrelated boat just because it happened to be designed in your critic's home country is pretty much equivalent to a two year old's tantrum. To use the pictures you used to make your point is cynical and insensitive in the extreme.

Let's see if I got this right.

 

1) You claim that the dutch troll was criticizing FT10 design, and the article that I linked was not criticizing Max Fun 35 design?

What about this finding from the UK MAIB ?

Despite a statement by the designer that the Max Fun 35 was built to ABS standards for yacht design, the minimum Safety Factor of 2 was not achieved. The reason for this is that he used the keel steel ultimate tensile strength instead of yield strength in his calculations.

 

2) Your sensibilities were offended by the photos that were published as part of the UK MAIB?

Grow up and HTFU.

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everyone knows the current rudder sucks. it is far too heavy, bendy and is in no way the ideal form - sorry bob - which is why so much effort has been put into doing a new one. the profile very much needs to change or there is no reason to even bother with it and if we don't bother with it then a huge problem with the boat does not get addressed.

 

the rudder may be less than perfect and have had some issues, but can't be all that bad, you claim many wins with what you have over some good handicap competition... improve it too much and we will be taking a rating hit <_<

 

OMG, that fucking thing is a brick. Tip deflection under load is off the charts. A piece of plywood would work better. The new carbon rudder is a solid solution...IMHO.

 

FWIW, I've known Tom for a long time, casually. He's a great guy, has a solid reputation and is a good communicator. This is JUST what the FT Classes needs. His presence will assure a good program for a long time to come.

 

Moreover, I'm 100% certain he will take care of Bob Perry who has earned his money.

 

 

disclaimer......"authoritive" opinion by a non owner doing a poor imitation of a parrot

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"Despite the best efforts of everyone the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage"

 

Nice passive voice in describing how the current situation came to be.....like Sailing Anarchy had nothing to do with the whole thing........

 

Is the boat nice ? Is it too tender ? Too wet ? Too slow ? Too expensive ?

 

Was the notion of a social media building a one-design fleet better left as a pipe dream ?

 

I would say not- folks had some fun and there still may be a future, just this time based around on real-world nuts and bolts and not utopian fantasy/lord of the flies type stuff....

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Just a note on Panthera's mast collapse,

I do believe that was operator error, compounded by a bad design that has since been corrected.

The internal stainless steel ring around the partners was the wrong size on the first couple of boats and allowed the mast to touch hard a stainless plate before the F/g moulding. This was corrected in later boats.

The sleeves were fitted to the mast, when they became available, but already the mast had a slight scar.

Spartight or some form of wedges were not used in the partners, and if they are believed to be essential they should be supplied with the boat.

The rudder design will continue to be the worst feature of the boat, and perhaps the reason why I would not try to sell a new boat to a friend. Until a new lighter system is available, vertically aligned with proper balance forward of the pivot, the class will struggle. The time is 'now' to change with the new ownership broom.

Any other approach will be a head in the sand failure.

 

 

 

At the actual heel angles sailed in big breeze, I dont think any central vertical single blade of any profile will hold the power. Needs smaller dual rudders IMHO.

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Opinions added below:

 

"Despite the best efforts of everyone the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage"

 

Nice passive voice in describing how the current situation came to be.....like Sailing Anarchy had nothing to do with the whole thing........

 

Is the boat nice ? YES Is it too tender ? YES Too wet ? NO Too slow ? NO Too expensive ? NO

 

Was the notion of a social media building a one-design fleet better left as a pipe dream ? NO

 

I would say not- folks had some fun and there still may be a future, just this time based around on real-world nuts and bolts and not utopian fantasy/lord of the flies type stuff....

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Personally, I didn't find post 19 very reassuring -- especially the line about not being convinced that aftermarket rudders are not stronger than the factory rudder or the suggestion that the shape is ok as is. I hope that wasn't a backpedal on the need to improve the system.

 

 

I've got a cracked aftermarket rudder sitting in my office right now. Granted, the builder knew it was a bad layup before he sent it out but it certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Just saying that the majority of the early owners had requested a lifting rudder. A well built cassette system is as strong or stronger than a single blade system. My only interest is to supply a seaworthy product. If the class determines that a single piece carbon system is allowed or preferable then we will give serious consideration to designing and building one for all future deliveries and sold at cost to current owners.

 

Thanks Tom.

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that and you couldn't take the beatings you would receive... :P hey, how's the new boat?

 

 

The Ed talks a lot of trash in this forum. I say we put him in a laser or even an Optimist where he doesn't have crew holding his hand and see how he does. :P

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I am not an engineer or even remotely qualified to talk about design or build issues but I did stay at a Holiday Inn :-) I know what I like and what I want. The perfect solution in my world is to create a cassette that is beefy enough to handle the loads of a improved carbon rudder that slips into the device. It would be a running change at the factory, the cassette that is, and a modification the allows those with current boats to improve at their local yard(or backyard). I would think the Chinese would be able to layup a carbon rudder with the quality and price point to get close to 100% take rate from current owners. This would make an easy removal / install senario and minimize the reinvention of the back of the boat. There it is, now go make it!

 

fuck that! i'm too old and fat....

 

 

We don't think you're fat...

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I am not an engineer or even remotely qualified to talk about design or build issues but I did stay at a Holiday Inn :-) I know what I like and what I want. The perfect solution in my world is to create a cassette that is beefy enough to handle the loads of a improved carbon rudder that slips into the device. It would be a running change at the factory, the cassette that is, and a modification the allows those with current boats to improve at their local yard(or backyard). I would think the Chinese would be able to layup a carbon rudder with the quality and price point to get close to 100% take rate from current owners. This would make an easy removal / install senario and minimize the reinvention of the back of the boat. There it is, now go make it!

 

fuck that! i'm too old and fat....

 

 

We don't think you're fat...

 

 

....just somewhat dated and dimensionally challanged :rolleyes:

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Obviously you missed the point that williwaw who slamed the FT10

 

... Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit.

... So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

is a Dutchme, just like the designers of the Max Fun 35 that capsized.

 

"Those who live in ... " (and so on)

 

 

You pick some odd battles, GP.

 

Why the ethnic attack (not the 1st time, BTW)?

 

So what if some knucklehead slams a boat? Happens all the time @ SA and I dare say the detractors likely know little if anything about what they opine. FWIW you often instruct others not to "feed the trolls"...so, why do it?

 

Give it a rest, Brother.

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Obviously you missed the point that williwaw who slamed the FT10

 

... Sorry to say it but we have one in Netherlands sailing and always when I walk past I have to try not to laugh, this is by far the most uggly boat I ever saw and it also sails like shit.

... So I would suggest put the production moulds in the shredder and start something new.

is a Dutchme, just like the designers of the Max Fun 35 that capsized.

 

"Those who live in ... " (and so on)

 

 

You pick some odd battles, GP.

 

Why the ethnic attack (not the 1st time, BTW)?

 

So what if some knucklehead slams a boat? Happens all the time @ SA and I dare say the detractors likely know little if anything about what they opine. FWIW you often instruct others not to "feed the trolls"...so, why do it?

 

Give it a rest, Brother.

You are right; thanks for the reminder.

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... The perfect solution in my world is to create a cassette that is beefy enough to handle the loads of a improved carbon rudder that slips into the device. It would be a running change at the factory, the cassette that is, and a modification the allows those with current boats to improve at their local yard(or backyard). I would think the Chinese would be able to layup a carbon rudder with the quality and price point to get close to 100% take rate from current owners. This would make an easy removal / install senario and minimize the reinvention of the back of the boat.

I agree 100%.

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i was desperately hanging on to my fleeting youth. but i now realize it has fleeted. fuck.

 

welcome to our reality, you are not alone

That was funny. Speaking of funny I wonder if anyone would name their Tiger "Woods"? or "Woods Club"? Takes a beating and still keeps swinging? m'kay, getting my coat....

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With a lot of the boat names in the fleet having something to do with Tiger I was wondering when one of you guys were going to name your yacht

 

Tiger Woods ;)

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With a lot of the boat names in the fleet having something to do with Tiger I was wondering when one of you guys were going to name your yacht

 

Tiger Woods ;)

 

Shouldn't it be " Tiger's Woody"

 

Certainly seems to spread the big or possibly small one driver around a few holes

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With a lot of the boat names in the fleet having something to do with Tiger I was wondering when one of you guys were going to name your yacht

 

Tiger Woods ;)

 

Shouldn't it be " Tiger's Woody"

"Tiger Would"

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With a lot of the boat names in the fleet having something to do with Tiger I was wondering when one of you guys were going to name your yacht

 

Tiger Woods ;)

 

Shouldn't it be " Tiger's Woody"

"Tiger Would"

 

does this mean "Wood's Hole" is in trouble

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With a lot of the boat names in the fleet having something to do with Tiger I was wondering when one of you guys were going to name your yacht

 

Tiger Woods ;)

 

Shouldn't it be " Tiger's Woody"

"Tiger Would"

 

does this mean "Wood's Hole" is in trouble

 

Only in Shilshole.

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that hottie still works there? good christ what a babe! hey walter "i still have a bush/cheney sticker on the back of my car" shaffer, ya gonna bring that teak palace out for new year's day?

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Tom, before I commit, I need to have the mast and rudder problems solved for

 

Not trying to speak for Tom, but what mast problem? The rudder problem is well on it's way to being solved. Many owner have bought new life lines which is the only s.s that discoloured. So if you don't mind the price being uped buy your own lifelines and the new Kernan rudder. Problem solved, :D you got yourself a great boat!! :rolleyes:

 

probably referring to the mast in Australia that broke recently...seems like they blamed the lack of Spartite or equivalent as the source of friction at the partners...

 

so see it's not the mast

 

The Spartite treatment (has to be done during the commisioning phase ie it's poured in) has always been an 'essential' according to the info on the FT sites and from the mast manufacturer

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