TCWippy 5 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122. My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area) Congrats. From what I've seen, I think you will do very well with that rating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122. My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area) That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair. It may have helped that we were able to provide the ORR measurements and handicap we received for another race. More data, less opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daimond 5 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122. My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area) That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair. It may have helped that we were able to provide the ORR measurements and handicap we received for another race. More data, less opinion. Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge. Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page: http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair.From what I heard the other 111s have been rated 42 elsewhere..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daimond 5 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge. Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page: http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php Rsults show it at 39. No dog in this fight just stating a fact. 11104 Frank Slootman Invisible Hand 39 16:38:11 16:38:11 16 Encinal J/111 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Results have been miss entered..... That's a fact. Again, check the entry sheet which is what the committee went by for the starts. Doesn't change a thing as we started the race with the 36. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goblew 6 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge. Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page: http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php Yes, I entered the 39 in the online application when we did not have a rating yet. Else, it would not accept my application online, knowing it was subject to change. PHRF was issued as 36, and we started the race at the time indicated for boats rated 36. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done. We had a serious snafu on the J/111 with the head sail not wanting to unfurl the whole race. We set the code zero for as long as we could in lieu of having a working head sail. Our choice of bridges at the start was thereby determined by our head sail limitations. We were quite sure we'd have to give up after Red Rock as it was a beat back to TI. Solosailor managed to get the head sail to unfurl a lot further maybe about 80-85%. It looked like crap, tell tales wouldn't fly etc. but the boat was still pretty quick in spit of this. Still don't know what the furler problem is. We could not get the headsail down last night. For new/prospective 111 owners, keep an eye on this, we've had issues with the furler from day one. Not sure if we can fix or will replace. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jambalaya 25 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent) wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them) headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning) halyard tension Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent) wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them) headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning) halyard tension If I had to guess it's related to your #2. Pure speculation though. The furler is brand new (Facnor), the bottom drum has no issues, and we completely released the halyard. Had we had a bosun chair on the boat, Solosailor would have gone up the mast to examine the snafu. I guess that is why they call this race a Fiasco. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crash 1,006 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mmayer 7 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent) wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them) headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning) halyard tension If I had to guess it's related to your #2. Pure speculation though. The furler is brand new (Facnor), the bottom drum has no issues, and we completely released the halyard. Had we had a bosun chair on the boat, Solosailor would have gone up the mast to examine the snafu. I guess that is why they call this race a Fiasco. Please let us know what the issue turns out to be once you sort it out. thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trevor B 100 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why do you even have a furler? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why do you even have a furler? In this particular race we wished we didn't have one ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ragbag, you mentioned you have a Code Zero. What's the story with that? Namely Who built it? How are you flying it? Do you see the need for a bobstay? How does the boat like it? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ragbag, you mentioned you have a Code Zero. What's the story with that? Namely Who built it? How are you flying it? Do you see the need for a bobstay? How does the boat like it? Thanks See picture of the setup attached. It was built by a frequent contributor to this forum. We just completed it this week, and flew the code zero a lot during the 3BF race. It has a bobstay as you can see. It is a great setup in light breeze, boat powers up rapidly with the big sail. The carbon fiber prod is affectionately known as the strap-on. It can come off for OD sailing if need be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jambalaya 25 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments. My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post. Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty. Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ? Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments. My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post. Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty. Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ? Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ? I find choosing the fixed prod over flying it off the bowsprit to be an interesting decision as well. Sure I've seen the fixed, short, sprit on other boats before but my experience with these sails is that the farther out you can get it the better. Would you mind filling us in on who designed the sail and what their justification was for the fixed sprit over a flying it off the pole? I'm still trying to understand the different mindsets behind the many setups. That said, the term "code zero" is remarkably broad with 5-6 radically different schools of design falling into the category, so I'm not surprised that I've stumbled across more examples. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jambalaya 25 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ragbag - just spotted on large scale photo that you are not using blocks on spi-tack, so my question is irrelevant Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments. My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post. Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty. Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ? Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ? You can't partially extend the pole and fly a code zero as the pole will not be in the middle of the boat. It is possible to fly off the fully extended pole, we were just worried about what kind of forces we would unleash on it. There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. The code zero holds the middle between a headsail and a kite, the luff tension is considerable. This prod is insanely strong. We blow up the pole, we have no weapons left. It is a conservative approach that we took. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SailRacer 123 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 IMHO: If you flew it from the pole, it would most likely break (or bend too much) due to the halyard tension required. Sail Safe! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jah 4 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 ragbag, How do you like the ferrules on your sprit? What brand and size did you use? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 411 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122. My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area) That seems like a fair rating based on the KWRW performance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Erik Rogers 0 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done. We had a serious snafu on the J/111 with the head sail not wanting to unfurl the whole race. We set the code zero for as long as we could in lieu of having a working head sail. Our choice of bridges at the start was thereby determined by our head sail limitations. We were quite sure we'd have to give up after Red Rock as it was a beat back to TI. Solosailor managed to get the head sail to unfurl a lot further maybe about 80-85%. It looked like crap, tell tales wouldn't fly etc. but the boat was still pretty quick in spit of this. Still don't know what the furler problem is. We could not get the headsail down last night. For new/prospective 111 owners, keep an eye on this, we've had issues with the furler from day one. Not sure if we can fix or will replace. We had a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 How do you like the ferrules on your sprit? What brand and size did you use? We've been using then on several rides..... they work great for static load applications like this. Hansen Rigging has numerous sizes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 ad a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues. Had a body up the rig today to look for issues and roll/unroll and of course it just came right out!!! Tried everything Saturday, varied halyard tension of course. Narrow shackle sounds like the culprit. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why do you even have a furler?Came with the boat.... class rules, although no class racing this year. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 ad a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues. Had a body up the rig today to look for issues and roll/unroll and of course it just came right out!!! Tried everything Saturday, varied halyard tension of course. Narrow shackle sounds like the culprit. Thanks. We had a narrow shackle, and it was replaced after we bent the narrow one on our first couple of sails. Will have to look at it being sufficient for the load. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Why do you even have a furler? The topic of furler/no furler can fill a thread all its own. I like them for short handed racing. One pull and the sail is gone. Safer on the ocean maybe with less hands having to leave the safety of the cockpit. Big downsides weight aloft and snafus like we had on race day. If I raced crewed mostly, I probably would do without. The boat does come standard equipped with it though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mustang__1 344 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling most people call it physics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling most people call it physics. Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alymatt 1 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling most people call it physics. Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece. Well said..........I think a lot of it has to do with where you sail and what you truly will be doing with the zero. Where you are it will be used as a blast reacher more so than a true upwind sail IMO .......that I would bet will mean less luff pressure required but the pole will under go more lateral movements. In the PNW where we would use the zero for true upwind sailing and it is critical then to get max vmg to grind the #$#@$@ out of the halyard, thus the pole would be pointing up and not last 15 minutes or the first decent wave. I think I prefer the look of the boat with the fixed prod but off the pole will be faster.......if the pole survives that is Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daimond 5 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I see NorCal PHRF has given the SC 37 a rating of 27. That means she gives the J111 (phrf 36) 9 seconds a mile. Should make for some interesting racing on SF Bay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Z 1 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Good representation of the J-111 production line at CCF in Bristol RI. This image taken 19 January. #17 in the foreground is supposed to be completed by 18 February. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dickie greenleaf 6 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Question... What's the deal with the holes in the aft cabins? So that you can get to the steering quadrant in a pinch and quickly? Why no covers... another issue with weight? DG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Question... What's the deal with the holes in the aft cabins? So that you can get to the steering quadrant in a pinch and quickly? Why no covers... another issue with weight? DG It is an access issue. You can't install or get to your AP gear very well otherwise. We have now put canvas zippable covers on them so stuff can't accidentally get back there and get caught in steering mechanics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Covered: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Here it is without: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jsailannapolis 0 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I wonder if that will become standard zip out like on the 105. Seems like a silly thing to leave out... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crash 1,006 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I wonder if that will become standard zip out like on the 105. Seems like a silly thing to leave out... If it were me, I might have to go with a nice 3/8 inch sheet of ply with matching teak veneer, varnished, with a finger hole and couple of horns on the backside to let it drop in place and hold it there. Would dress up the space and make it look yachty. Might add about 5 lbs over the open mesh weave though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hermetic 305 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling most people call it physics. Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece. Why don't the J's just up the layout schedule on the prod? a couple more layers of CF and a bobstay would seem to be the ticket. While a C0 isn't necessary for OD racing, anytime that thing bends up the Asail shape will suffer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goblew 6 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I don't think either is as light or would look as good as a nice duct tape cover! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. This is troubling most people call it physics. Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece. Why don't the J's just up the layout schedule on the prod? a couple more layers of CF and a bobstay would seem to be the ticket. While a C0 isn't necessary for OD racing, anytime that thing bends up the Asail shape will suffer. I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goblew 6 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails. I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails. I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though. You can shorrten the pole but it will no longer be flown off the boat's center. May not be a huge issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dickie greenleaf 6 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! Nice! Well done. Too bad you can't be seen in the photo. But, then again, who gives two shits about what you look like. DG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Z 1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag! Ironically Jim Z is visible in the shot, he is sitting on the right in the picture with the vang ready to release (sorry to blow your cover Jim ;-). Based on that, we have since led the vang line aft to both sides of the boat to a cleat so nobody has to stay on deck so close to the mast. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mustang__1 344 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag! Ironically Jim Z is visible in the shot, he is sitting on the right in the picture with the vang ready to release (sorry to blow your cover Jim ;-). Based on that, we have since led the vang line aft to both sides of the boat to a cleat so nobody has to stay on deck so close to the mast. yeah, thats one of those things that bothered me about the 111, so many things were right, but the vang wasnt lead aft, and the clutches are split on either side of the companionway. granted you can put in crossfeeders etc, but still, it just simplifies things to have it all down the middle of the companion way. that and the roller furling... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goblew 6 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails. I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though. You can shorrten the pole but it will no longer be flown off the boat's center. May not be a huge issue. I asked about that too and he said just that - not a big issue. So I'll ponder for a while..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month! I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography! Last time I checked that pole was on the starboard side! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jambalaya 25 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I prefer the clutches either side of the companionway as they are further aft. If they are in the center of the boat it's likely you have to stand on the steps to operate them. For short handed sailing that's a bad set up. Aft lead vang is better, with a release each side of the companionway next to the clutches, again that's driven by short handed sailing (the J92 is perfect in that you can release the clutch whilst helming). For boats focused on fully crewed racing then it's usual to have the vang-man sat on the rail in the middle of the boat. It's generally fairly simple to modify the vang release and return it to standard if required for OD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trevor B 100 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It's also nice to be able to run a mini dodger over the companion way when you're at sea, and you need the clutches off center for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though. So he recommended tacking the Code-0 to the pole WITHOUT a bobstay? Good luck with that. Other "Js" I've seen have used a bobstay so shortening the pole extension as the wind builds would stiffen the pole but again, it will only be on center when the pole is fully extended, not the best solution. The pole will definitely flex a lot without a bobstay. Also, the sheeting angle with change quite a bit over 4+ feet of adjustment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FUNK 0 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Your best bet is to build a sail for 0 to 8 knts of wind that flys on the pole all the way out. You will have very little need for the sail unless you race point to point (this boat is ideal for it). In breeze over 8knts w/apparent angle higher than 65deg the boat won't need anything bigger than a jib to haul the mail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
us7070 308 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 i've sailed on a J/120 with a code 0 that goes on a full-extension pole. the pole is long enough, that the bobstay really isn't at a great angle for holding the pole tip down. the thing scares me a bit offshore, as i am afraid the pole might break. the 111 is probably a stiffer boat, but the 120 is reasonably stiff, and that huge sail can lay the boat over pretty easily if you're not on the ball... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
us7070 308 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 also..., the AW is forward enough, that i doubt being off-center a bit will matter much in terms of a difference tack-to-tack. i do think having a variable pole length might be a PITA, and i'm not sure how a bobstay would work in that setup... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hermetic 305 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 A C0 is essentially a light to medium air sail, if you're laying the boat down with it - it's time to check the sail choice chart and make a change. The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hermetic 305 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick! Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Furkolkjaaf 12 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick! Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted? Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matt Baldwin 46 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick! Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted? Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence... The boats are on different angles to the wind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hermetic 305 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape. I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that. Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick! Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted? Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence... To expand a little on Cabady's reply, when going deep - like as far downwind as your speed guage will let you - you actually want soft luff tension when it's windy. But usually this is accomplished by easing the tack line. When reaching, or when using a C0, you want a very tight luff - max the halyard and crank on the backstay. You treat the asail more like a jib. The bend-o-prod makes the latter difficult and kills the design shape of the sail. Again, this is probably not a big deal in OD - since everyone will be bending - but outside of OD, it's not good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JL92S 426 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 do hall make the prod? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted? Yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goblew 6 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though. So he recommended tacking the Code-0 to the pole WITHOUT a bobstay? Good luck with that. Other "Js" I've seen have used a bobstay so shortening the pole extension as the wind builds would stiffen the pole but again, it will only be on center when the pole is fully extended, not the best solution. The pole will definitely flex a lot without a bobstay. Also, the sheeting angle with change quite a bit over 4+ feet of adjustment. yeah, that's my understanding. deal with the sheeting angle usuing tweakers. He emphasized the C0 is a light/moderate wind sail <15. the guy has built a ton of sails and is on his fourth set of J111sails. Thinking about the geometry of a bobstay on the sprit in a breeze really doesn't convince me it's that much better. i think your setup is indisputable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoStrings 17 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?" I could never answer the question to his satisfaction. So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Z 1 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Just to keep things rolling...a couple of updates for the west coast J-111 contingent... 1) Rag Bag's Hull #4, INVISIBLE HAND, will be on display (in her "Cabo Race" trim...sweet) at "Boat Fest" in Marina Village, Alameda CA 24-27 Feb. (Sail Ca. Dock). 2) Hull #17 is out of the barn and getting her underside dolled up at International Marine in Rhode Island. She should be arriving in SF early in March for final commissioning and sailing in early April. If all stays according to plan; she will be at Strictly Sail in Jack London Square 14 - 17 April at the Sail California dock at the show. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EWS 5 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?" I could never answer the question to his satisfaction. So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35? It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?" I could never answer the question to his satisfaction. So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35? It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense Not in our experience thus far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35? "There's a real big gap between getting your ass kicked and having a dancing, singing sprite fool you with trickery and then strike your throat before you even know you're in a fight" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense What is happening in a few days? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoStrings 17 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35? "There's a real big gap between getting your ass kicked and having a dancing, singing sprite fool you with trickery and then strike your throat before you even know you're in a fight" Hey G, Exactly how much time do you spend watching chick flicks? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solosailor 609 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Pot calling the keddle black, no? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
War Dog2 0 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 NS it was no fight........ more like an bothersome kid selling chickletts on the streeet and scratching the paint on a new car!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pogen 6 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 War Dog2? Is the world big enough for two War Dogs? Thanks for letting me have a look around the other day -- very nice boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NoStrings 17 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Pot calling the keddle black, no? Oh no amigo, not me. I had to look that one up on Google. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Z 1 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense What is happening in a few days? Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project... https://picasaweb.google.com/111226466348003368663/Feb212011?authkey=Gv1sRgCIjpjLvs_JuIkgE&feat=email# But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year? Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daimond 5 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense What is happening in a few days? Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project... https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email# But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year? Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here... According to norcal phrf 36 with sym 42 with assy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EWS 5 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense What is happening in a few days? Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project... https://picasaweb.google.com/111226466348003368663/Feb212011?authkey=Gv1sRgCIjpjLvs_JuIkgE&feat=email# But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year? Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here... That's the boat I was refering to. Obviously not much 1d35 in it anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ragbag 0 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense What is happening in a few days? Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project... https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email# But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year? Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here... According to norcal phrf 36 with sym 42 with assy There were two 1D35s in last weekend Corinthian Midwinters, one rated 36 (standard) and one rated 21. Neither one hung with the 111 on elapsed time, and we were sailing no where near our race potential for various reasons. I don't know what mods the 21 rated boat had. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EWS 5 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 the boat has been rated at 33/27/18 in Socal without the square top main & 30/24/12 with the square top. Didn't mean to derail the J/111 thread so please continue on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts