Atlantic 57 "Cruising" Cat Capsizes

[ibsailn 0]

The Crew (two Men - Owner and friend) were rescued yesterday (Sunday Aug 1) from an overturned Atlantic 57 Catamaran named Anna. The were capsized under main and Jib when hit by a sudden squall while sailing from Tonga to Niue in order to assist with Whale Research on the island. The crew arrived Monday morning to Niue on the Container ship that rescued them after being dispatched by NZ Search and Rescue. Both crew are safe and sound, with little more than some small cuts and many bruises. I spoke to them this afternoon at the Niue Yacht Club about the incident. They were sailing under main and full jib in about 16 kntots of breeze and had had squalls for the last 24 hours in the area. The squall that hit them didn't look any different than others and didn't show up on radar any greater than others had. The wind came up rapidly and with a 90 degree wind shift that caught them off guard and capsized the boat before sheets could be eased. Daggerboards were reportedly lowered as the boat was sailing upwind. The highest wind seen on the instruments was 62kts. The set of their GPS enabled epirb and waited rescue in their dingy which floated free free of the boat upright having been stored on the aft deck for passage. After 12 hours they were rescued by a container ship making its scheduled trip from Tonga to Niue. The owner is originally from Texas, but is currently living in New Mexico.

 

This is a very interesting case as this is the largest cruising catamaran to be capsized and appears to have done so with relatively non-remarkable conditions. There were no particularly large waves reported (3-4 meter seas were forcast and reported). The Atlantic 57 is designed by Chris White and built in South Africa as well as Newport RI. She is a relatively light weight catamaran with a displacement of about 26,500 lbs, similar in displacement/length as a Gunboat 66 so this is a light cat for cruising in, but no racing cat.

 

I will report more as further information comes in.

 

Gram Schweikert

Naval Architect/Marine Engineer

Visions of Johanna

VofJ.blogspot.com

[Canal Bottom 7]

Yacht Anna

[Keith 988]

This is an amazing story. The Atlantic design series is a well proven offshore design.

 

It is extremely difficult to turn over a very large, dagger board cat like this....

 

But playing with dangerous unpredictable squalls is another story.........

 

Would like to hear the rest of the story, from the crew....

[Recidivist 626]

This is an amazing story. The Atlantic design series is a well proven offshore design.

 

It is extremely difficult to turn over a very large, dagger board cat like this....

 

But playing with dangerous unpredictable squalls is another story.........

 

Would like to hear the rest of the story, from the crew....

 

 

Agree, especially in the absence of any appreciable sea. I don't want to "cast stones" before we hear more, but I am a bit concerned that the dinghy floated free after the capsize, indicating that it wasn't made fast by lashings. Even on a big boat, it's generally prudent seamanship to attend to those details (although in this case it worked in the crew's favour).

 

One person off watch and the other getting a cup of coffee?

 

Glad the crew are OK.

[Moonduster 314]

Keith,

 

Curious why you mention the dagger boards ... "extremely difficult to turn over a very large, dagger board cat like this".

 

Seems to me that it's really simple physics and that the dagger boards being down probably made it much, much more suceptible to capsize because it couldn't slide sideways through the water.

 

But big gusts are always a problem on cats, especially when sailing in the danger zone, that funky broad reaching quadrant, where either bearing away or heading up is apt to cause vanishing righting moment.

 

While it's true that big cruising cats with heavy hulls don't suffer this problem to the same degree as racing cats, clearly these gusts from the 20s to the 60s did the trick.

 

It'll be interesting to see if they can recover the boat ...

[soma 805]

That's nuts. I haven't heard of a full fledged cruising cat flipping before. Good to know it can happen, it'll keep us all a little more honest. I know the math says it is possible, but still, it feels like such a solid platform beneath you, you kind of discount the possibility.

 

I wonder if they were on auto, and if so, if they were on wind vane mode. Not that that would have prevented this, but still. I'd never second guess the decisions made aboard. If they sailed that deep into the Pacific, I assume they knew what they were doing. Nevertheless, I'd still like to know the facts.

 

This is 2 mornings in a row that there has been dramatic cat info (X40 Groupama slamming into the sea wall in Cowes yesterday). Apparently these things are dangerous.

[toe72 5]

All accidents are series of poor decisions. I'm sure there are a few key ones in this story. Not having an eye on the radar with too much sail up? Not being ready to adjust the sheets? Accident is probably a culmination of bad calls with really bad luck.

 

I love those CW designs and probably would still buy one if I could afford it.

 

The good news is that no one died.

[mrnanney 0]

I am not a cat guy but have lusted after the Chris White designs ever since being onboard a 42 at the Atown show. I would not call them full fledged cruiser but fast / light cruiser that is pretty powered up. 62 knots will flip lots of things and my uneducated guess is that boards down gives the cat something to trip over?

 

From the little info here sounds like this squall was just different than the ones they had got used to and if there was a huge wind shift - not sure how much it mattered if someone was on the sheet.

[unShirley 131]

There were no particularly large waves reported (3-4 meter seas were forcast and reported).

 

I guess I am a pussy, but 10' seas seem pretty significant to me. Especially in 60 knots of wind....Imagine getting hit broadside by a 10' whitecap in a 60 knt puff. Or, perhaps the whitecap peak under the boat, b/w the hulls.

[mmiller 0]

62 kts sounds "remarkable" to me... especially with full sail up. Let alone the 90 degree shift.

 

Daggers down does tend to "trip" a cat. Boards always start coming up when the wind and speed increases. 2 guys dealing with this 57 footer? Wow.

 

If the info comes from the guys on board... sounds like excuses to me... trying to make it more of an accident than negligence on the part of the (2 man) crew.

[redlola 0]

Easy to armchair quarterback this sort of thing...

 

If there was a 90 degree wind shift sailing upwind, that could have translated into an auto-tack that stalled the boat. Then all the wind load on the boat would be static which I think would make the tipping force stronger, since the boat would not be able to transfer the additional wind energy to another vector. Also, if the sails where in a stalled condition, there is more drag on the sail plan, hence more tipping force.

 

I have a larger cruising cat and have spent idle moments thinking how one might recover from a capsize. It would be quite an undertaking, and a lot of expensive systems and materials would have been trashed by submersion in salt water.

 

No matter how you slice it, that’s crumby news, so best wishes to the skipper.

[PHM 35]

I've always wondered why these big cruising cats don't have an automatic release on the sheets--tied to TWS and/or heal angle thresholds. It seems like the cost of such a system wouldn't be prohibitive, at least on the scale of the total cost of the boat for the big, premium cats.

[Oxygen Mask 1]

I've always wondered why these big cruising cats don't have an automatic release on the sheets--tied to TWS and/or heal angle thresholds. It seems like the cost of such a system wouldn't be prohibitive, at least on the scale of the total cost of the boat for the big, premium cats.

 

There are a number of them on the market and they supposedly to work.

IIRC Joyon uses one such.

[Moonduster 314]

I believe the wind went aft, not forward. And on a big cat with a tripod rig, there's just nowhere for the main to go as it just sits on the leeward shroud.

 

10' seas, with a 10 second period are really kinda small. After a few days on the ocean, you don't notice that sort of thing. 10' seas with a 3 second period are something else altogether. Certainly the squall would have had little effect on the sea state.

 

Reefing a big main-powered rig isn't an easy thing to do, especially short handed. With the forward-cockpit, which give limited visibility to the boom, it's trickier yet.

 

From my perspective, no matter the boat, an unexpected gust from the lo-20s to the mid-60s is going to do significant damage. Whether it's blown out sails, busted rigs or sigificant carnage above and below from a knockdown, there's no cruising boat that's going to walk away unscathed. Cats are a little tricky but that's part of their compromise when compared to a monohull. It's a shame they lost the boat, but I wouldn't jump on the short handed crew as being at fault. There are risks to sailing on the ocean and while they're mostly manageable, they're not all avoidable.

[Bill Gibbs 28]

First, I know nothing about this capsize other than this thread.

Second, my sincere condolances to skipper and crew for the loss of their boat. An experience I hope to avoid.

 

While these conditions sound extreme, I think we want to stop short of calling it an unavoidable accident, unless there was truly nothing a prudent crew could have done to avoid capsize. I don't think we blame the boat design, as any multihull can capsize. I have followed a lot of big multi capsizes over the last decade or so, and I can't recall one where crew error wasn't a major factor, if not the primary factor. They mention other squalls, would reefing have been indicated? Were sheets being held? Was the autopilot driving? Was the weather unexpected? Avoidable?

 

A multihull cannot survive on it's own like some monos. It's crew keeps it safe. A multi cannot survive a knockdown. A multi can be cruised safely. But you have to be prudent. Or so it seems to me.

[Peter Johnstone 0]

My heart goes out to this crew. Any big multi can be flipped, and it can happen to any of us. This is the first I have heard about a cruising cat over 47', so this is a shocker. Predicting squall strength is not easy. The boat is a good safe boat. I think the strength of the squall sounds exceptional compared to the squalls encountered through the day by the crew. I think this is a highly unusual incident. Am glad everyone is safe, and that rescue was so quick. I hope they can recover their cat, get her set up again, and back on the water.

[NoStrings 17]

There were no particularly large waves reported (3-4 meter seas were forcast and reported).

 

I guess I am a pussy, but 10' seas seem pretty significant to me. Especially in 60 knots of wind....Imagine getting hit broadside by a 10' whitecap in a 60 knt puff. Or, perhaps the whitecap peak under the boat, b/w the hulls.

 

10' seas DON'T mean 10' whitecaps for god's sake. 10 ft swells in the open ocean are pretty damn common if the wind is blowing someplace upwind of you.

[Trevor B 76]

My heart goes out to this crew. Any big multi can be flipped, and it can happen to any of us. This is the first I have heard about a cruising cat over 47', so this is a shocker. Predicting squall strength is not easy. The boat is a good safe boat. I think the strength of the squall sounds exceptional compared to the squalls encountered through the day by the crew. I think this is a highly unusual incident. Am glad everyone is safe, and that rescue was so quick. I hope they can recover their cat, get her set up again, and back on the water.

 

Peter,

Remember that squall on Team Adventure? And that was with three people on the sheets and a pretty sharp driver.

A squall wouldn't have to be anywhere near that to make things very interesting with "Otto" steering instead of Cam.

[PHM 35]

My heart goes out to this crew. Any big multi can be flipped, and it can happen to any of us. This is the first I have heard about a cruising cat over 47', so this is a shocker. Predicting squall strength is not easy. The boat is a good safe boat. I think the strength of the squall sounds exceptional compared to the squalls encountered through the day by the crew. I think this is a highly unusual incident. Am glad everyone is safe, and that rescue was so quick. I hope they can recover their cat, get her set up again, and back on the water.

 

I'm glad it's highly unusual...after bareboat chartering a cat in Raiatea a couple of weeks ago, my wife has told me that when we go cruising, it's going to be on a cat....

[weightless 521]

I believe the wind went aft, not forward. And on a big cat with a tripod rig, there's just nowhere for the main to go as it just sits on the leeward shroud.

 

10' seas, with a 10 second period are really kinda small. After a few days on the ocean, you don't notice that sort of thing. 10' seas with a 3 second period are something else altogether. Certainly the squall would have had little effect on the sea state.

 

Reefing a big main-powered rig isn't an easy thing to do, especially short handed. With the forward-cockpit, which give limited visibility to the boom, it's trickier yet.

 

From my perspective, no matter the boat, an unexpected gust from the lo-20s to the mid-60s is going to do significant damage. Whether it's blown out sails, busted rigs or sigificant carnage above and below from a knockdown, there's no cruising boat that's going to walk away unscathed. Cats are a little tricky but that's part of their compromise when compared to a monohull. It's a shame they lost the boat, but I wouldn't jump on the short handed crew as being at fault. There are risks to sailing on the ocean and while they're mostly manageable, they're not all avoidable.

 

I agree with virtually all of the above except for the relative ease of reefing from the forward cockpit. The visibility is fine from there and the leads are simpler and less draggy than they would be if lead aft. But, with the wind aft and the sail plastered onto the shrouds it will be a job to get the main down. I gather they already had a reef in and at the reported 16 knots TWS that's a fairly snug rig. Also it has been reported (but I'm not sure how reliably) that the skipper was in the cockpit but fell down while attempting to reach the mainsheet. If so the time between the realization that there was a problem and the capsize wasn't long enough to make reefing an option anyway. As you say a sudden and unexpected gust to 60 is going to cause problems (eg. Concordia).

[Keith 988]

I know this is an older story, but its a classic and worth a look regarding multihulls left on their own, in a building severe storm.... (Ramtha) was found later, upright, and towed back in to port for her owners.

 

http://www.navy.mil....f-the-storm.htm

[LMI 2]

A multihull cannot survive on it's own like some monos. It's crew keeps it safe. A multi can be cruised safely. But you have to be prudent.

 

Most intelligent thing written here.

[Moonduster 314]

Bill G,

 

Taking a few leaps of faith, you're essentially saying that a cruising cat cannot be "prudently" cruised shorthanded. I beg to differ. They have been cruised, are being cruised and will be cruised short handed and sometimes things go very wrong despite remarkable prudence.

[LMI 2]

Bill G,

 

Taking a few leaps of faith, you're essentially saying that a cruising cat cannot be "prudently" cruised shorthanded. I beg to differ. They have been cruised, are being cruised and will be cruised short handed and sometimes things go very wrong despite remarkable prudence.

 

Boards down and full sail with squalls in area, with that SA/D, and no hands on sheets, some might say is not exactly prudent. Do you cruise?

[Agility 2]

Bill G,

 

Taking a few leaps of faith, you're essentially saying that a cruising cat cannot be "prudently" cruised shorthanded. I beg to differ. They have been cruised, are being cruised and will be cruised short handed and sometimes things go very wrong despite remarkable prudence.

 

Boards down and full sail with squalls in area, with that SA/D, and no hands on sheets, some might say is not exactly prudent. Do you cruise?

 

I lived on a boat for 16 Months, crossed the Atlantic, covered a lot of ground and never saw winds over 50kts. Guess I was just lucky.

[LMI 2]

Bill G,

 

Taking a few leaps of faith, you're essentially saying that a cruising cat cannot be "prudently" cruised shorthanded. I beg to differ. They have been cruised, are being cruised and will be cruised short handed and sometimes things go very wrong despite remarkable prudence.

 

Boards down and full sail with squalls in area, with that SA/D, and no hands on sheets, some might say is not exactly prudent. Do you cruise?

 

I lived on a boat for 16 Months, crossed the Atlantic, covered a lot of ground and never saw winds over 50kts. Guess I was just lucky.

 

We did but rarely and brief. You did know its possible though and shortened sail in unsettled weather, yes?

 

If sailing up wind, a 90 degree shift puts either auto-tacks the boat and backwinds the sails (an easy capsize), or puts the boat on a broad reach with lee bow (not a ton of reserve there) wanting to pitchpole the boat. If the main is trapped by the checks it could not have been eased. Guessing it was locked on course w/ auto pilot and a helm correction down was what was needed. If auto was following apparent wind it would have tried turning the boat up which would have taken it through the death zone. Wonder if it really was a capsize. Either way, active driving and hands on sheets if not the case would have given more options. Short-handed sailing limits response and so deserves more prudent sailing.

[Bill Gibbs 28]

you're essentially saying that a cruising cat cannot be "prudently" cruised shorthanded

 

Not at all.

Actually the exact opposite. I believe it is possible to sail a multi safely and prudently in a wide variety of conditions and crews. I believe it is possible to have avoided almost every capsize I've reviewed details on, with "prudent" multi seamanship.

[wwj5555 0]

I've cruised with my wife offshore on our Seawind cat. The boat feels so stable that it takes alot of discipline to shorten sail and sail slowly along underpowered when conditions are not settled. We had the boat in excess of 50 knots of wind and big seas in the "papagayos" off Nicaragua, but with a triple reefed main, or just a tiny jib, we crashed and slapped along slowly keeping it safe as possible. These cats have such great speed potential, that it's so easy to succumb to "get there itis" and let the boat roll along in the 10s and 12s. Sailing offshore is so freakin boring after a couple days, any speed toward the destination is enjoyed. Sailing the boat powered up, at the top of the speed curve for the boat, while not at the helm and tending the sheets is something that I think most of us slip into. This introduces a bit of unwelcome luck into the equation. My wife has less experience, so we often reefed when I would go below to sleep. Then, when I would go on watch, I would shake out the reefs to pick back up the pace.

 

I've wanted a Chris White design for years, but they clearly are proving to be less forgiving then a heavy production barge with a low sail area to displacement ratio. Only less forgiving in my opinion in that they have a "top end" that takes discipline to manage prudently. I don't know if I would have the discipline to sail along at 5-6 knots on an Atlantic 57 in squally conditions, or to shorten sail at night when the conditions are difficult to evaluate in the dark. This is not the 1st CW design to go over in a squall with the crew not on the sheets. A 42 on the Great Lakes went over in a similar situation.

 

It would be interesting to hear what Chris White would have to say about the sail configuration that would have been safe with that kind of wind increase and direction change. Would a triple reef, and small jib have saved them? I suspect so. But sailing that boat with so little sail up is just no fun, and gets frustrating real quick.

 

My wife has a saying when I come on watch to relieve her, that we always joke about. I ask her how things are going, and she always says, "well fine". Then she says, "you know how that goes, things are always fine right before they aren't".....

[weightless 521]

 

I've wanted a Chris White design for years, but they clearly are proving to be less forgiving then a heavy production barge with a low sail area to displacement ratio.

 

I only know of two capsizes of CW designs. Do you know of others? I don't know how much one can generalize with just those two cases. CW's boats typically are a bit wider than other cruising cats and have good reserve buoyancy which should make them a bit harder to flip if sailed conservatively. For example, an A42 is wider, heavier and has less sail than an F41. I think the numbers put most or all of CW's stock designs in the performance / cruiser category rather than the cruiser / racer... I don't know the particulars of Anna's capsize. But if the early reports are right and they were hit by a powerful dry microburst it may fall into the "act of God" category.

[LMI 2]

I only know of two capsizes of CW designs. Do you know of others? I don't know how much one can generalize with just those two cases. CW's boats typically are a bit wider than other cruising cats and have good reserve buoyancy which should make them a bit harder to flip if sailed conservatively. For example, an A42 is wider, heavier and has less sail than an F41. I think the numbers put most or all of CW's stock designs in the performance / cruiser category rather than the cruiser / racer... I don't know the particulars of Anna's capsize. But if the early reports are right and they were hit by a powerful dry microburst it may fall into the "act of God" category.

 

There's more to comparing two cat designs than just the numbers.

 

The CW designs with there unprotected forward cockpits where the sail controls are located and there lovely warm cosy interior steering station only ,design concept, is fine in settled weather. Asking for trouble in shorthanded nasty windward stuff.

The F41 has got to be the safer layout.

 

Flame away.

 

Having sailed the CW cat with forward cockpit I would have to disagree. Forward or aft cockpit, the shorthanded crew spends a lot of time NOT in the cockpit. The benefit of the CW design is that more time is spent at the helm when inside. I think the inside steering adds to the safety of the boat rather than detracts from it. In either case its tough to get to the sheets quickly.

[weightless 521]

I only know of two capsizes of CW designs. Do you know of others? I don't know how much one can generalize with just those two cases. CW's boats typically are a bit wider than other cruising cats and have good reserve buoyancy which should make them a bit harder to flip if sailed conservatively. For example, an A42 is wider, heavier and has less sail than an F41. I think the numbers put most or all of CW's stock designs in the performance / cruiser category rather than the cruiser / racer... I don't know the particulars of Anna's capsize. But if the early reports are right and they were hit by a powerful dry microburst it may fall into the "act of God" category.

 

There's more to comparing two cat designs than just the numbers.

 

The CW designs with there unprotected forward cockpits where the sail controls are located and there lovely warm cosy interior steering station only ,design concept, is fine in settled weather. Asking for trouble in shorthanded nasty windward stuff.

The F41 has got to be the safer layout.

 

Flame away.

 

YMMV. I've sailed both and spent a lot of time offshore on an A42 including a lot of weather work some in quite unpleasant wx. Even on the 42 the cockpit is usually pretty civilized. I've never found it hard to stand watch in the cockpit. On the 57 I have to believe it would seldom be a chore. I like the F41 a lot and don't really want to get into a which is "better". The designs are a bit different and both are good. I was just mentioning the F41 because it is a comparable design by a designer who makes a very big deal about his safety record but produced an offshore cruising cat more on the performance side than the stock CW designs. The point being that CW designs are not super high strung racers with interiors they are both by comparison and by the numbers performance cruisers. Having said that and since it comes up IMO the 42 is the more seaworthy boat and the 57 would typically be vastly more so... On the F boat while beating the view from the helms is largely obscured by the jib, the sail controls are far away from the helm which will make it harder to keep a proper lookout and a hand on the sheets. Also the F41 is narrower than the 42, has a higher center of gravity is lighter and has more sail. So no the F41 is not the safer layout nor is it a safer design -- it is however a heck of a nice design with great performance and a comfortable interior.

[Y-Bar 0]

Forward cockpits are crap.

You are fully exposed to the elements and cant see main trim unless turning / facing backwards.

Cant feel the wind changes or gutsts if comming from behind as the cabin stops / deflects the natural wind at your back.

The cat in questions has self tailing winches which are located behind the steering position so if steering you would have to turn backwards or sideways to trim or release sails. I couldnt imagine how hard it would be steering from the front position and a gust comes through and you have to try and turn around look away from where you are steering in a critical split second to release sheets that are in self tailers.

If you are going to set a crusing cat up like this them maybe it is best to sail at under canvased at crusing speeds.

If squalls are around then obviously they need to be treated with some respect even on a large crusing cat. The f41 is a block of flats but the steering position would be preferable to the forward cockpit.

[weightless 521]

So in your opinion the CW forward facing open cockpit is a great place for the shorthanded crew to stand watch in for windward work in nasty weather?

So the CW crews are so tough they don't retreat to the enclosed cabin , slam the forward facing door , and have a real problem with reaching the sail controls quickly when required.

 

Yer , right.

 

I'm reporting my experience of sailing many ocean passages in an A42 with a two aboard. I don't know about other crews but we keep watch in the cockpit in difficult conditions. Have you sailed in an Atlantic cat?

[weightless 521]

Forward cockpits are crap.

You are fully exposed to the elements and cant see main trim unless turning / facing backwards.

Cant feel the wind changes or gutsts if comming from behind as the cabin stops / deflects the natural wind at your back.

The cat in questions has self tailing winches which are located behind the steering position so if steering you would have to turn backwards or sideways to trim or release sails. I couldnt imagine how hard it would be steering from the front position and a gust comes through and you have to try and turn around look away from where you are steering in a critical split second to release sheets that are in self tailers.

If you are going to set a crusing cat up like this them maybe it is best to sail at under canvased at crusing speeds.

If squalls are around then obviously they need to be treated with some respect even on a large crusing cat. The f41 is a block of flats but the steering position would be preferable to the forward cockpit.

On an A42 at least you can see the main just fine without any contortions and reach all the winches on the boat while holding the wheel. I can adjust the main sheet, traveler and jib sheet without taking my hand off the wheel or my eyes off the sea and can easily short tack the boat by myself. You can feel the wind changes and gusts perfectly well. What boats have you sailed on that you are basing your opinion on?

[LMI 2]

Forward cockpits are crap.

You are fully exposed to the elements and cant see main trim unless turning / facing backwards.

Cant feel the wind changes or gutsts if comming from behind as the cabin stops / deflects the natural wind at your back.

The cat in questions has self tailing winches which are located behind the steering position so if steering you would have to turn backwards or sideways to trim or release sails. I couldnt imagine how hard it would be steering from the front position and a gust comes through and you have to try and turn around look away from where you are steering in a critical split second to release sheets that are in self tailers.

If you are going to set a crusing cat up like this them maybe it is best to sail at under canvased at crusing speeds.

If squalls are around then obviously they need to be treated with some respect even on a large crusing cat. The f41 is a block of flats but the steering position would be preferable to the forward cockpit.

 

I can't believe you have sailed the boat based on what you are writing. There are some drawbacks to the design but you have it wrong.

[Keith 988]

Well i guess i could chime in a little more. I am glad to hear everyone is safe. I hope they are able to track and recover the cat. Shes a very nice catamaran.

 

What i am writing here is based on my own hands on ocean experience and is in no way to be considered any criticism. These are my own personal sailing choices while offshore.

 

I have no hands on experience on C. Whites designs, other than walking through one or two tied up at boat shows. I have read C. Whites book a few times, and I really like the design.

 

I think the easy access, forward position bridge-deck cockpit, is an excellent idea, although it may be a little wet / salty at times. And with the pilot house door just behind you for getting out of the weather, with clear visibility forward, its pretty well thought out.

I think dagger boards are much safer offshore in strong weather, giving you the ability to slide sideways.

I sailed my cat single handed from Brisbane to Fiji, Fiji to W.Samoa, W.Samoa, to the Northern cooks, Northern cooks to Hawaii. All the wrong way, and through the ITZ. I saw tons of squally conditions at times. And lots of awesome sailing as well. Auto drove most of the time, and sometimes made bad sudden turns... auto was a little old and finicky, But it was easy to flip auto off and sail on.

 

I was always on "full alert" any time i came to any squally conditions. In those conditions i would constantly run my radar, and track and try to avoid squalls as much as possible, i would always try to run around the edge, to get behind it, rather than let it run me over, sometimes they would morph into a completely different shape as they moved through, after a few days of this, I was calling the boat a squall magnet, because no mater what i did they always seem to hunt me down.

But i was extremely cautious in these unpredictable conditions. The radar was a perfect tool to keep an eye on these bad boys, from miles away. If i was unsure of what the squall was doing, all sail was quickly dropped, lashed down, and avoidance under power was the most cautious choice. Sometimes these cells pack a little lightning in them as well, and i did not want to take a lighting hit. So i would also unplug a few of the electronics just in case. But i am a cautious offshore multihull sailor, and there are always times and places to let her rip, and times to be very careful. We can not take a knock down, like a monohull can, so we must take other measures, too reduce risks, and there is nothing worse then having the wind pin the big roachy main against the rig, and its very tough if next to impossible to drag it down. I think the important thing is, when sailing a multihull you have too use multihull tactics.

[Y-Bar 0]

Forward cockpits are crap.

You are fully exposed to the elements and cant see main trim unless turning / facing backwards.

Cant feel the wind changes or gutsts if comming from behind as the cabin stops / deflects the natural wind at your back.

The cat in questions has self tailing winches which are located behind the steering position so if steering you would have to turn backwards or sideways to trim or release sails. I couldnt imagine how hard it would be steering from the front position and a gust comes through and you have to try and turn around look away from where you are steering in a critical split second to release sheets that are in self tailers.

If you are going to set a crusing cat up like this them maybe it is best to sail at under canvased at crusing speeds.

If squalls are around then obviously they need to be treated with some respect even on a large crusing cat. The f41 is a block of flats but the steering position would be preferable to the forward cockpit.

On an A42 at least you can see the main just fine without any contortions and reach all the winches on the boat while holding the wheel. I can adjust the main sheet, traveler and jib sheet without taking my hand off the wheel or my eyes off the sea and can easily short tack the boat by myself. You can feel the wind changes and gusts perfectly well. What boats have you sailed on that you are basing your opinion on?

 

If you can see all the main from the steering position facing forwards then I applaud you as being the first human with eyes in the back of their head.

To answer your question on multis I have sailed on.

The ones I have sailed on are where the owner & crew know what trouble a self tailing winch can be even on a crusing cat and still prefer to have sheet lines cleated rather than run through a self tailers. With crew that know the value and importance of respecting the particular yacht design and prevailing weather conditions regardless of what history / experience they or their particular yacht designer may have.

These guys have simply been caught out like many others before them. It may have been an act of god as someone previously mentioned but that was only the weather conditions. It was the people in control of the vessel and their actions responsible for keeping it upright.

I dont personally would not prefer to stand out in the elements at the front of a cat when you can be out of them sitting under cover steering at the back.

[Keith 988]

HI Ybar,

 

Here's a classic Crowther aft cockpit/ beam bench set up, self tailer is for trimming head sail, once trimmed, its out of the self tailer and into the cam cleat, for quick release....

[Y-Bar 0]

HI Ybar,

 

Here's a classic Crowther aft cockpit/ beam bench set up, self tailer is for trimming head sail, once trimmed, its out of the self tailer and into the cam cleat, for quick release....

 

Thanks Keith. You obviously know what I am talking about and your previous post and voyage confirms your experience.

Is this photo the aft end of the cat in those pics?

I like the fact that even the self tailing main sheet winch still has a cleat.

[weightless 521]

On an A42 at least you can see the main just fine without any contortions and reach all the winches on the boat while holding the wheel. I can adjust the main sheet, traveler and jib sheet without taking my hand off the wheel or my eyes off the sea and can easily short tack the boat by myself. You can feel the wind changes and gusts perfectly well. What boats have you sailed on that you are basing your opinion on?

 

If you can see all the main from the steering position facing forwards then I applaud you as being the first human with eyes in the back of their head.

 

Okay, I understand you dislike center cockpits and have some theories about them. As with most things they are a compromise that some will like and others will not. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. I don't have any desire to change it and I don't care much how you come by it. However, you are making assertions of fact which are simply incorrect. Allow me to repeat that I am reporting from experience. I have normal vision and my eyes are located in much the same way as most folks. When sitting on the weather side of the cockpit and steering I don't have any trouble seeing the complete main. Sometimes I just glance up at it but if I want to keep an eye on the waves and see the main a slight sideways tilt of the head is all that is required. I suppose that if you sail in glacier glasses a pith helmet and a neck brace you might have to turn your whole body to see the main but normally abled and attired folk really do not have any trouble. I respect your faith but you're just plain old fashioned wrong about this.

[weightless 521]

HI Ybar,

 

Here's a classic Crowther aft cockpit/ beam bench set up, self tailer is for trimming head sail, once trimmed, its out of the self tailer and into the cam cleat, for quick release....

 

Nice layout. Where is the steering in relation to it?

[Y-Bar 0]

On an A42 at least you can see the main just fine without any contortions and reach all the winches on the boat while holding the wheel. I can adjust the main sheet, traveler and jib sheet without taking my hand off the wheel or my eyes off the sea and can easily short tack the boat by myself. You can feel the wind changes and gusts perfectly well. What boats have you sailed on that you are basing your opinion on?

 

If you can see all the main from the steering position facing forwards then I applaud you as being the first human with eyes in the back of their head.

 

Okay, I understand you dislike center cockpits and have some theories about them. As with most things they are a compromise that some will like and others will not. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. I don't have any desire to change it and I don't care much how you come by it. However, you are making assertions of fact which are simply incorrect. Allow me to repeat that I am reporting from experience. I have normal vision and my eyes are located in much the same way as most folks. When sitting on the weather side of the cockpit and steering I don't have any trouble seeing the complete main. Sometimes I just glance up at it but if I want to keep an eye on the waves and see the main a slight sideways tilt of the head is all that is required. I suppose that if you sail in glacier glasses a pith helmet and a neck brace you might have to turn your whole body to see the main but normally abled and attired folk really do not have any trouble. I respect your faith but you're just plain old fashioned wrong about this.

 

I guess we will just agree to disagree and I repect the fact you like this design and are entitled to your opinion.

You take the front with tailers and I will have the back with cleats. The good thing to come out of this would be the fact that CW crusing multi owners and all others for that matter might learn a little and be more attentive and carefull knowning that a big cat can go over just the same as any other.

[weightless 521]

I guess we will just agree to disagree and I repect the fact you like this design and are entitled to your opinion.

 

Works for me.

 

You take the front with tailers and I will have the back with cleats.

 

FWIW, I was not commenting on cleats v or in association with tailers. Cam cleats would be perfectly easy to set-up in a center cockpit and are worth considering.

 

The good thing to come out of this would be the fact that CW crusing multi owners and all others for that matter might learn a little and be more attentive and carefull knowning that a big cat can go over just the same as any other.

 

Experience is a harsh mistress. Hopefully we'll know more about the particulars of this case eventually and will be able to learn specific lessons. Meanwhile, I agree that about the best we can hope for from all this is that it will encourage sailors to take extra care in sailing and preparation.

[Excoded Tom 1,594]

Meanwhile, I agree that about the best we can hope for from all this is that it will encourage sailors to take extra care in sailing and preparation.

 

And never think that an innocent looking little squall will not be the one with the weird big gust in it....

[Keith 988]

HI Ybar,

 

Here's a classic Crowther aft cockpit/ beam bench set up, self tailer is for trimming head sail, once trimmed, its out of the self tailer and into the cam cleat, for quick release....

 

Nice layout. Where is the steering in relation to it?

 

HI..

 

Here's a shot of the cockpit from the side and behind... the wheel is center, in front of a elevated folding chair, and you have a sliding hatch above your head to open if you want to stand up to be in the action, or for docking in a tight space to see well all around, or you can see right forward through the clear glass pilot house windows, with the sun shades off. four solar panels on top.

[Peter Johnstone 0]

Trevor, yes I will not forget that day on TA.

 

All of the boats mentioned above are equally valid to their fans. The outcome in this incident was pre-ordained 10 minutes before it hit. Squalls don't care about what multi you sail, its layout or its equipment. This could happen to anyone, and is a reminder to use real caution in unsettled weather.

[weightless 521]

 

Nice layout. Where is the steering in relation to it?

 

HI..

 

Here's a shot of the cockpit from the side and behind... the wheel is center, in front of a elevated folding chair, and you have a sliding hatch above your head to open if you want to stand up to be in the action, or for docking in a tight space to see well all around, or you can see right forward through the clear glass pilot house windows, with the sun shades off. four solar panels on top.

 

Thanks Keith. Good photo and description. Your photo collection must be way more organized than mine

[Pelagicon 9]

Add also that if there was a lot of water in the bilges that getting bow down on waves will result with all that bilge water running forward, thus making problems with pitch-poling. Same for any boat...

[solosailor 399]

Curious why you mention the dagger boards ... "extremely difficult to turn over a very large, dagger board cat like this".

 

Seems to me that it's really simple physics and that the dagger boards being down probably made it much, much more suceptible to capsize because it couldn't slide sideways through the water.

Having just returned from Kauai to SF on a Chris White Hammerhead 54' for the 2nd time this Saturday I can say that I sure had the centerboard up when in adverse conditions. Nothing like 60k but we had 30-37k on the beam and much larger than 10-15ft average seas, some breaking over the boat. I felt much more secure once the boat was slowed down (double reefed with/without the jib depending) without much of the daggerboard deployed so it slid a bit sideways under the larger pushes. When the pace was on it was very easy to overpower the leeward float and stuff it nicely created quite the hip check. Very nice ocean going trimaran and this is the first incident I've heard of with the A57.

[Speng 8]

My understanding is that you shouldn't depend on the radar to tell you what a squall is going to be like. best to be prudent and be in position ready to blow sheets and steer as necessary. Any squall by definition is unpredictable and tropical ones more so.

[estarzinger 426]

My understanding is that you shouldn't depend on the radar to tell you what a squall is going to be like. best to be prudent and be in position ready to blow sheets and steer as necessary. Any squall by definition is unpredictable and tropical ones more so.

 

There are usually quite a few signals when you should be especially careful.

 

Lightening is one.

 

A solid, dark radar return (rather than the more common speckled return) from a broad arc (rather than just one cell) in front of you is another.

A third is an extra sensitivity to the sea state. Super squalls do tend to push some waves out.

A fourth is the old sailor's rhyme "Rain before wind, sheets and halyards tend; wind before rain all will soon be fine again" suggests, if the puffs come before the rain you can be comfortable with one reef as this will be a relatively short and gentle squall. Also if the new puffs are a bit colder than the old wind, but not a dramatic temperature drop, a single reef will be fine. If, however, the rain comes first, even as a few drops splattering on the deck and then stopping for a moment, or if you feel a large temperature change in those first puffs, put two reefs in while your reefing, as you'll quite likely need them.

A fifth . . . Taller clouds have stronger downdraft. At night you can often watch the stars disappear behind the cloud to judge height.

Articles if you are interested:

http://www.bethandev...pdf/squalls.pdf

http://www.bethandev...WhenReefing.pdf

[weightless 521]

My understanding is that you shouldn't depend on the radar to tell you what a squall is going to be like. best to be prudent and be in position ready to blow sheets and steer as necessary. Any squall by definition is unpredictable and tropical ones more so.

 

There are usually quite a few signals when you should be especially careful.

 

The Microburst Handbook is worth a read, especially the last section. The immediate clues may occasionally be subtle. So it can also pay to keep an eye on the forecasts. Offshore the lifted index available in GRIBs is a direct indicator and sheer lines, fronts and convergence zones also may indicate enhanced chances of microbursts. This not very threatening or radar reflective sky preceded a microburst:

 

[estarzinger 426]

We have never seen at sea in the tropics what that paper (and photo in your post) calls a 'dry microburst'. We have always seen 'wet microbursts', which provide more advance signals. The final paragraph of the paper suggests that is what one would expect ("dry microbursts to occur in arid or semi-arid portions of the country, and wet microbursts in humid areas"), while noting there are always exceptions to the rule. It is interesting that some of the tall ship capsizes are reputed (but without proof) to be from the rare dry microbursts.

 

The grib lifted index is interesting to tell you when to pay particular attention and be particularly cautious (at night), but honestly we have found looking outside to be much more accurate.

[weightless 521]

We have never seen at sea in the tropics what that paper (and photo in your post) calls a 'dry microburst'. We have always seen 'wet microbursts', which provide more advance signals. The final paragraph of the paper suggests that is what one would expect ("dry microbursts to occur in arid or semi-arid portions of the country, and wet microbursts in humid areas"), while noting there are always exceptions to the rule. It is interesting that some of the tall ship capsizes are reputed (but without proof) to be from the rare dry microbursts.

 

The grib lifted index is interesting to tell you when to pay particular attention and be particularly cautious (at night), but honestly we have found looking outside to be much more accurate.

 

They are rare events and they are primarily studying them as they effect low/slow flying aircraft so I'm not sure anyone is looking for them at sea much less studying their mechanisms there. The Concordia has had a bit of press lately as a possible example of a dryish microburst... I've never seen a dry microburst and have no idea what the probability of running into one at sea is (but rather suspect it is very, very small). However, sailing from the Cooks to the Societies hooked into a "stationary" (slow moving) front we did have an extraordinary gust out of a squall that was not very wet and certainly less wet than many of the squalls around it... We were rigged very conservatively because of the squally wx and still had a pretty terrifying experience.

 

I'm a big fan of the look out the window theory of wx forecasting and the WYSIWYG of analysis...

 

FWIW, I've recently heard unconfirmed reports that the crew on Anna eased and then cleated the jib, allowed the boat to come onto a reach, did not ease the main and are reporting apparent wind speeds while reaching and flying the hull... If so, I'm less inclined to the microburst theory for Anna.

[ibsailn 0]

I have left Niue, but do have a few updates.

 

Anna has washed up in Tonga. She was discovered by the crew of Mary Powel. Apparently salvors are now fighting over it. Here is a photo:

 

Photo of Anna Capsized

 

 

Clearly, boards were down. The crew reported that they had eased the jib (not sure if it got re-cleated or not, or maybe just the tail got caught so it wasn't eased completely, but they didn't say either way). Main did not get eased.

 

Both crew were awake and in or near the cockpit when the squall hit. It didn't sound like this was a micro-burst, just a very strong squall. I didn't think to ask if the wind indicator was on apparent or true.

[weightless 521]

I have left Niue, but do have a few updates.

 

Anna has washed up in Tonga. She was discovered by the crew of Mary Powel. Apparently salvors are now fighting over it. Here is a photo:

 

Photo of Anna Capsized

 

 

Clearly, boards were down. The crew reported that they had eased the jib (not sure if it got re-cleated or not, or maybe just the tail got caught so it wasn't eased completely, but they didn't say either way). Main did not get eased.

 

Both crew were awake and in or near the cockpit when the squall hit. It didn't sound like this was a micro-burst, just a very strong squall. I didn't think to ask if the wind indicator was on apparent or true.

 

That is heartbreaking.

 

Interesting that the steering is broken again. Since she is aground it's likely that the reef has pushed the boards up. It seems unlikely that they'd have had both boards down as they're asymmetric. I'm still trying to confirm the source for an email I received. It came to me in a round about manner and no attribution. So, I don't know how reliable it might be.

 

With a falling bar at 998 and weather moving in the author seems amazingly nonchalant. I don't know what he means by "jib outhaul line" but presume it means the reefing line which if partially eased and with a sheet on to prevent "flapping" in combination with the breeze going aft would have been a very bad combination... So, FWIW and with no representation at all that this is what happened:

 

...The skies were still cloudy but some time after 1400 we noticed that a portion of the cloud cover to the East was especially dark. I turned on the radar at the 12-nm range and it showed rain clouds almost all around with rain clouds to our NE, E, SE, and NW, but the radar displayed no apparent difference or special intensity in the dark cloud. Nevertheless we were somewhat wary of the dark cloud and paid extra attention to our monitoring of the weather. The barometer had dropped only from 1000 mb to 998 mb over the last few hours, which was no cause for alarm, and I hoped that the dark cloud held intense rain that would wash the boat and knock down the seas so that we could shake out the reef in the main and speed up.

 

Suddenly just after 1500, while observing the anemometer (wind speed and direction indicator), which was displaying apparent and not true wind since we were beating, I noticed that the wind was backing to the S so that rather than beating into the wind, suddenly we were on a beam reach. I began turning the autopilot so that we would remain heading up. Then the wind speed jumped from 18 knots to 25, then to 30, then to 35 in the blink of an eye, both Glen and I yelled "let's reef" and we bounded out into the cockpit. When I saw the anemometer in the cockpit a couple of seconds later, the wind speed showed 45 knots, so I moved to the autopilot and again tried to head the boat up into the wind, while Glen tried to reef the jib. The wind was ferocious, however, and Glen could not control the jib outhaul line so that it started flapping wildly. I was afraid we would rip the sail (which I did last year because of my own operator error) and so shouted at him, "What are you doing?", then reached over and closed the jammer cleat that prevented more line from getting loose. Realizing finally that the wind was overpowering us to a perilous extent, I next moved towards the mainsheet to release it, but in a flash we were up in the air, flying a hull as if we were on a Hobie Cat, and I lost my balance and started tumbling to port. We hung at that position -- roughly 45 deg. -- for a second then over we went.

[Daimond 5]

I have left Niue, but do have a few updates.

 

Anna has washed up in Tonga. She was discovered by the crew of Mary Powel. Apparently salvors are now fighting over it. Here is a photo:

 

Photo of Anna Capsized

 

 

Clearly, boards were down. The crew reported that they had eased the jib (not sure if it got re-cleated or not, or maybe just the tail got caught so it wasn't eased completely, but they didn't say either way). Main did not get eased.

 

Both crew were awake and in or near the cockpit when the squall hit. It didn't sound like this was a micro-burst, just a very strong squall. I didn't think to ask if the wind indicator was on apparent or true.

 

That is heartbreaking.

 

Interesting that the steering is broken again. Since she is aground it's likely that the reef has pushed the boards up. It seems unlikely that they'd have had both boards down as they're asymmetric. I'm still trying to confirm the source for an email I received. It came to me in a round about manner and no attribution. So, I don't know how reliable it might be. With a falling bar at 998 and weather moving in the author seems amazingly nonchalant. I don't know what he means by "jib outhaul line" but presume it means the reefing line which if partially eased and with a sheet on to prevent "flapping" in combination with the breeze going aft would have been a very bad combination... So, FWIW and with no representation at all that this is what happened:

 

...The skies were still cloudy but some time after 1400 we noticed that a portion of the cloud cover to the East was especially dark. I turned on the radar at the 12-nm range and it showed rain clouds almost all around with rain clouds to our NE, E, SE, and NW, but the radar displayed no apparent difference or special intensity in the dark cloud. Nevertheless we were somewhat wary of the dark cloud and paid extra attention to our monitoring of the weather. The barometer had dropped only from 1000 mb to 998 mb over the last few hours, which was no cause for alarm, and I hoped that the dark cloud held intense rain that would wash the boat and knock down the seas so that we could shake out the reef in the main and speed up.

 

Suddenly just after 1500, while observing the anemometer (wind speed and direction indicator), which was displaying apparent and not true wind since we were beating, I noticed that the wind was backing to the S so that rather than beating into the wind, suddenly we were on a beam reach. I began turning the autopilot so that we would remain heading up. Then the wind speed jumped from 18 knots to 25, then to 30, then to 35 in the blink of an eye, both Glen and I yelled "let's reef" and we bounded out into the cockpit. When I saw the anemometer in the cockpit a couple of seconds later, the wind speed showed 45 knots, so I moved to the autopilot and again tried to head the boat up into the wind, while Glen tried to reef the jib. The wind was ferocious, however, and Glen could not control the jib outhaul line so that it started flapping wildly. I was afraid we would rip the sail (which I did last year because of my own operator error) and so shouted at him, "What are you doing?", then reached over and closed the jammer cleat that prevented more line from getting loose. Realizing finally that the wind was overpowering us to a perilous extent, I next moved towards the mainsheet to release it, but in a flash we were up in the air, flying a hull as if we were on a Hobie Cat, and I lost my balance and started tumbling to port. We hung at that position -- roughly 45 deg. -- for a second then over we went.

 

 

Video of the rescue over at Presssure Drop

 

http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php

[weightless 521]

Video of the rescue over at Presssure Drop

 

http://www.pressure-...ums/content.php

 

Thanks. That explains the rudders and the boards are deployed as described.

[razorback 4]

I wasn't familiar with these boats before this thread, and truly feel bad for the owners of this one, but that's one hell of a nice boat! Looks practical, cleverly designed, fast, etc. Damn shame about this one.

[wwj5555 0]

When I saw the anemometer in the cockpit a couple of seconds later, the wind speed showed 45 knots, so I moved to the autopilot and again tried to head the boat up into the wind, while Glen tried to reef the jib.

 

The wind is blowing 45 and he's fucking around with the autopilot???????? Pilot off, grab the helm and spin her into the wind while getting the crew to blow the main for cryin out loud.

 

Realizing finally that the wind was overpowering us to a perilous extent, I next moved towards the mainsheet to release it, but in a flash we were up in the air, flying a hull as if we were on a Hobie Cat,

 

They had time. Anna just needed a little more help then she got.

 

He never went to blow the main until the hull was flying.

 

He was concerned with damaging the jib ????? In that kind of wind it's nearly impossible to furl the jib without getting it partially blanketed by the main.

 

Very sad situation, but they simply fucked up in a big way. They under responded most likely due to the over confidence they had in the stability of their giant cat.

 

Things get out of hand quickly sometimes. One time we had the wind go from 15 to 50 as we rounded a headland in the Costa Rican Papagayos in our Seawind. By the time we got the boat reefed, the flogging of the main had ripped the lazy jacks out and tore up the stack pack.

 

I think all big multi sailors should spend some time on an F-18 or Nacra 20 or something. Instruments and automation have dulled the senses of many cruising sailors.

 

For the grace of God there go I.

[weightless 521]

Here's a complete version of the account that I excerpted: http://blog.mailasail.com/syanna/14

[Blutarski 0]

Hmmm.....more facts will come out about this

[Keith 988]

When I saw the anemometer in the cockpit a couple of seconds later, the wind speed showed 45 knots, so I moved to the autopilot and again tried to head the boat up into the wind, while Glen tried to reef the jib.

 

The wind is blowing 45 and he's fucking around with the autopilot???????? Pilot off, grab the helm and spin her into the wind while getting the crew to blow the main for cryin out loud.

 

Realizing finally that the wind was overpowering us to a perilous extent, I next moved towards the mainsheet to release it, but in a flash we were up in the air, flying a hull as if we were on a Hobie Cat,

 

They had time. Anna just needed a little more help then she got.

 

He never went to blow the main until the hull was flying.

 

He was concerned with damaging the jib ????? In that kind of wind it's nearly impossible to furl the jib without getting it partially blanketed by the main.

 

Very sad situation, but they simply fucked up in a big way. They under responded most likely due to the over confidence they had in the stability of their giant cat.

 

Things get out of hand quickly sometimes. One time we had the wind go from 15 to 50 as we rounded a headland in the Costa Rican Papagayos in our Seawind. By the time we got the boat reefed, the flogging of the main had ripped the lazy jacks out and tore up the stack pack.

 

I think all big multi sailors should spend some time on an F-18 or Nacra 20 or something. Instruments and automation have dulled the senses of many cruising sailors.

 

For the grace of God there go I.

 

 

HI Wayne...

 

I don't think i would choose to spin her into the wind, that's a very easy way to load up a big cat and have her go over, and of course your right,if your trying to play with sails and auto in a 45 knot blow, you may be little late too the show.........

 

But I would usually, be bearing away to reduce apparent wind speed,rig loads etc, this is a little more cautious on a multihull, and doing everything possible not too be caught in this situation, but that's only my personal choice.