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New Laser Sail Design


Icedtea

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Over at the laser forum there's plenty of discussion over a supposed new design for the laser full rig sail.

 

My question is this.. Does it actually exist? And of it does, what does it look like?

 

Couldn't really find anything on TLF so here's gonna have to throw up the goods :P

 

- Kevin

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I Care because I need a new one and want to know whether to wait or not

Well, as you Laser boys all leave your sails up flogging in the wind so all the surface finish cracks up in no time at all the smart money is that if you buy a new one now it will be ready to replace by the time a new design, should there be one, is eventually approved.

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I Care because I need a new one and want to know whether to wait or not :P

 

 

If your interest is sailing Lasers in "one design" races, you will need both sails for a few eyars. Locally on "wednesday night" style races you will need teh old cut to be using teh same cut as all those folks who don't buy a new sail for a few eyars and guys who do have new sails but only use those for regattas. At regattas you will need a new sail of whichever version gets you arounbd teh course faster.

 

perhaps you will need one old style for big winds and one new style for light winds...

 

I am not going to write out a hundred gazillion other scenarios

 

All good reasons to sell the Laser and buy a RS or Weta or even try reviving older class like Banshee or Force 5 ... I sold mine and love the freedom.

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Over at the laser forum there's plenty of discussion over a supposed new design for the laser full rig sail.

 

My question is this.. Does it actually exist? And of it does, what does it look like?

 

Couldn't really find anything on TLF so here's gonna have to throw up the goods :P

 

- Kevin

 

It's there, you gotta look....

lasersail_137_small.jpg

 

http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=8514

 

also

 

http://www.ilcana.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=479&Itemid=47

 

But your more likely to be able to see a unicorn before it's actually offered for sale

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Looks pricy!

You could probably clone a unicorn for the same price..

 

That's a proto - window doesn't have to be that large, I think in later radial cut proto's it was downsized. material cost diff is minimal less then $20.00. labor is about the same. But LP/PSA are going to charge whatever they think the market will bear

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Looks pricy!

You could probably clone a unicorn for the same price..

 

That's a proto - window doesn't have to be that large, I think in later radial cut proto's it was downsized. material cost diff is minimal less then $20.00. labor is about the same. But LP/PSA are going to charge whatever they think the market will bear

What they think it will bear and €50 on top of it!

 

Is there any performance diference between it and the standard now?

 

Methinks changing to a radial cut will make a difference

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I Care because I need a new one and want to know whether to wait or not :P

 

 

If the boat sucks as much as you claim then you would be a fool to invest your hard earned cash and your valuable time in to racing one...new sail or not..

 

Only one design class around here unfortunatly, I have other boats I sail for the pleasure of sailing tbh...

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Over at the laser forum there's plenty of discussion over a supposed new design for the laser full rig sail.

 

My question is this.. Does it actually exist? And of it does, what does it look like?

 

Couldn't really find anything on TLF so here's gonna have to throw up the goods :P

 

- Kevin

 

It's there, you gotta look....

lasersail_137_small.jpg

 

http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=8514

 

also

 

http://www.ilcana.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=479&Itemid=47

 

But your more likely to be able to see a unicorn before it's actually offered for sale

 

Not the final sail, infact that is very early on.

 

 

full rigs are overpowered and shit in light air.... need a radial cut

 

What the f#ck is that suppose to mean?? Useless contribution to the thread. Please make you 9th post a bit more constructive or at least not full of BS.

 

The new sail has been dumbed down to perform to the same level as the current full rig sail.

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If you're looking for a new sail, (north radial or full rig) APS just got a shipment of both yesterday. I promise you'll wear that one out before a "new" standard sail design is released..

 

I'm not associated w/APS, but know sails have been hard to find during the last 6 months or so here in the US so Merry Christmas!

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Hmmm... I'm all for the new sail but maybe two classes would be necessary during the transition period?

I don't see why. Go look at your club's elapsed times for Lasers in handicap races and you'll find that the bottom of the fleet is in excess of 25% slower than the top of the fleet. I'd be astonished if changing the sail design made as much as 5% difference, and probably under 2%. Oh sure the Olympic level races might want to designate a magic transition date, but for anyone below that level, especially if not competing in big single class events it will hardly notice. Sure if there are 50 boats on the same start line a tiny difference in boat speed is magnified up the first beat, but apart from that: no way.

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Hmmm... I'm all for the new sail but maybe two classes would be necessary during the transition period?

I don't see why. Go look at your club's elapsed times for Lasers in handicap races and you'll find that the bottom of the fleet is in excess of 25% slower than the top of the fleet. I'd be astonished if changing the sail design made as much as 5% difference, and probably under 2%. Oh sure the Olympic level races might want to designate a magic transition date, but for anyone below that level, especially if not competing in big single class events it will hardly notice. Sure if there are 50 boats on the same start line a tiny difference in boat speed is magnified up the first beat, but apart from that: no way.

 

Suppose that's true, but with the sail design being so different it makes sense to me there'd be a bigger difference in speed than the guys at LP are claiming.

 

They're also so desperate for money that maybe they'd purposely give it a speed difference to make people buy it.

 

Then again, they'd be killing their class, literally biting the hand that feeds them...

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Suppose that's true, but with the sail design being so different it makes sense to me there'd be a bigger difference in speed than the guys at LP are claiming.

Why? Same area, same planform, same mast, very likely the same fullness... Jeez, how similar do you want them? With a different panel layout there'll probably be a tiny difference in dynamic behaviour, but that's about it. There's going to be no more difference between those sails than between two sails in any class that doesn't have single supplier... I'd be tempted to bet that the difference between two new sails of each design is going to be less than the difference between a new sail and one that's been left flapping from the mast for an hour each weekend over the last 6 months...

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I'm still using my original 1973 Canadian Elvstrom sail. One of my fellow competitors with a much newer boat and sail (two or three seasons old) said that the my old sail still looks pretty good on the water, better than his in fact. Maybe Laser sails actually improve with age, if you use them for long enough? I still go just as fast as the newer boats in club racing. I don't think a new sail design would make any appreciable difference, even if it does look marginally less like total crap.

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It's not like a Laser sail is a precision airfoil that needs to maintain it's exacting original tolerances for best performance. It's a bed sheet on a stick.

 

That's true, but if you guve the new sail a big performance advantage over the old sail it would force some of the diehards to (perish the thougt) accept cahnge, and then they may want more to be changed, etc, etc,

 

Then you end up with something like a moth.

 

Moth's are awesome, but the Laser is a strict one design, and I've heard it said once you start changing a one design is when the class starts to die, take the Irish Mirror fleet for example.

 

But yeah, you have serious money mate if you spend that kind of money on bedclothes :P

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Mostly posting here just to mark the thread so I can keep up with it IF a new sail is announced.

 

IcedTea, Not trying to stir any shit with you but I think saying a sail design change on the Laser will lead to a push to change all kinds of other things like the Moth is a little silly. I mean what else would you change? All the running rigging is optimized and works well. We can pick our own hiking strap, tiller and tiller extension. I think we all agree the rudder and centerboard have to be off limits. So what else would you change? Sure a carbon reinforced mast step would help with the longevity of the boats but I don't see that happening.

 

As I have said before the single worse thing about our boats is the sail. A new design that lasts longer is going to be faster; so what? Keep it at the same cost or cheaper and in the long run it will end up costing us less money.

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That's true, but if you guve the new sail a big performance advantage over the old sail it would force some of the diehards to (perish the thougt) accept cahnge, and then they may want more to be changed, etc, etc,

 

Then you end up with something like a moth.

 

Moth's are awesome, but the Laser is a strict one design, and I've heard it said once you start changing a one design is when the class starts to die, take the Irish Mirror fleet for example.

 

But yeah, you have serious money mate if you spend that kind of money on bedclothes :P

 

 

You've been given some pretty decent explanations that either you accept or not as to the new design being released such that the existing sails (in new/like new condition) are not at a disadvantage. If you look back at the prev changes in the sail (both full and radial) you'll see it's been handled pretty decently by the class, if anything they dumb the new model down too much and we're left with the same crap, the hope this time is that at least the crap will last longer.

 

But you don't want to hear that, so hold on to your conspiracy theories and keep stocked on alum. foil

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It's the class, not the builder, that is driving the push for a new sail.

 

At the latest World Council meeting, the class executive decided (against exepctations) that now is too close to the 2012 Olympics to change the sail, so didn't take it to ISAF for approval. We won't be seeing the new sail until after the Olympics, but expect it to be very soon after.

 

Unless everything changes again.

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Good point,

They asked both Hyde an north to forward their proposals for a new sail design, as far as I know the radial cut was Hyde's design.

 

That was three years ago and a lot has happened since then. There have been over twenty prototypes made, and other sailmakers than North and Hyde involved.

 

If you look back, there was a sailmaker who has had some involvement commenting on the first page of this thread.

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Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

True, by the looks of it it's gonna be one hell of an achievement for them to dig themselves outta this one...

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They took a vote and decided to keep the original 1970's technology sailplan.

Instead they decided to replace the 1970's technology hull. Prototype was seen recently on the SA front page.

post-13013-018087100 1292821895_thumb.jpg

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  • 5 weeks later...

Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

Laser Performance Europe and Laser Performance Australia are both in very good shape financially and have had none of the problems that Laser Performance North America have had. Laser Performance North America is the one that needs be brought back onto solid ground. The class is very European dominated so I don't see them holding up the release of the sail just so Laser Performance North America can get their act together. I think there is a very good chance we will see the new sail released before the 2012 Olympics.

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Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

Laser Performance Europe and Laser Performance Australia are both in very good shape financially and have had none of the problems that Laser Performance North America have had. Laser Performance North America is the one that needs be brought back onto solid ground. The class is very European dominated so I don't see them holding up the release of the sail just so Laser Performance North America can get their act together. I think there is a very good chance we will see the new sail released before the 2012 Olympics.

 

Probably wouldn't be class legal until after the 2012 Olympics though.

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After four years of silence Chronic becomes a freakin'( relatively) blabbermouth....

 

 

Not how I'd rig a dangly pole myself...

 

How would you rig it? Always looking for better ideas.

45 months of stalling taking and publishing our deserved photos while your girlfriend's chest sags toward her navel and that is the best opening post you can give??

 

Fuck off newbie Fucktard!!!

 

Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

Laser Performance Europe and Laser Performance Australia are both in very good shape financially and have had none of the problems that Laser Performance North America have had. Laser Performance North America is the one that needs be brought back onto solid ground. The class is very European dominated so I don't see them holding up the release of the sail just so Laser Performance North America can get their act together. I think there is a very good chance we will see the new sail released before the 2012 Olympics.

 

Probably wouldn't be class legal until after the 2012 Olympics though.

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Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

Laser Performance Europe and Laser Performance Australia are both in very good shape financially and have had none of the problems that Laser Performance North America have had. Laser Performance North America is the one that needs be brought back onto solid ground. The class is very European dominated so I don't see them holding up the release of the sail just so Laser Performance North America can get their act together. I think there is a very good chance we will see the new sail released before the 2012 Olympics.

 

Probably wouldn't be class legal until after the 2012 Olympics though.

When I said released, I meant class legal, which I still think will happen before the 2012 Olympics, in fact, I would venture to say it may well be released (class legal) in 2011. What I heard is that they are waiting until the sail manufacturers have produced 4000 sails before officially releasing them. ILCA does not want to release a sail and then have Laser sailors unable to purchase the new sail because not enough had been made.

 

ILCA was very adamant that the new sail would not improve performance, would be more durable and would not cost significantly more than the current sail. Since they insisted on no improved performance, the integration process of the new sail should be fairly easy. Personally I can't wait to sail a Laser with a window in the sail that is actually in the right place, so I can see boats that I will cross close to, rather than the boats that are way ahead of me.

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Not doubting what you've heard DancingBear, but wondering who your source is?

 

We are all hearing so many conflicting stories from allegedly in the know people, it would be great to sort out the truth from the rumours.

 

For some reason, the ILCA executive has a policy (on this and a lot of other issues) of not informing the sailors they represent about what it going on. They like to hide behind commercial confidentiality but that can only be an excuse in limited instances - they use it way too easily for my liking. There should be complete transparency on their decisions and proper class discussion between the members and the executive on issues.

 

Anyway, about that sail...

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Until it is assured that the builder is on solid ground the whole new sail concept is dead in the water.

Laser Performance Europe and Laser Performance Australia are both in very good shape financially and have had none of the problems that Laser Performance North America have had. Laser Performance North America is the one that needs be brought back onto solid ground. The class is very European dominated so I don't see them holding up the release of the sail just so Laser Performance North America can get their act together. I think there is a very good chance we will see the new sail released before the 2012 Olympics.

 

Probably wouldn't be class legal until after the 2012 Olympics though.

When I said released, I meant class legal, which I still think will happen before the 2012 Olympics, in fact, I would venture to say it may well be released (class legal) in 2011. What I heard is that they are waiting until the sail manufacturers have produced 4000 sails before officially releasing them. ILCA does not want to release a sail and then have Laser sailors unable to purchase the new sail because not enough had been made.

 

ILCA was very adamant that the new sail would not improve performance, would be more durable and would not cost significantly more than the current sail. Since they insisted on no improved performance, the integration process of the new sail should be fairly easy. Personally I can't wait to sail a Laser with a window in the sail that is actually in the right place, so I can see boats that I will cross close to, rather than the boats that are way ahead of me.

 

What?! That really seems stupid. The work order to a sail designer . . . please design a slow sail. WTF!

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You can't design a faster sail though, once you start changing a one design class they die, fact.

 

What facts do you have to back that claim up? Because there's plenty of dead SMOD classes in england who didn't have the balls to change. I haven't heard of any 49er sailors leaving the class because of the sail change but I'll admit that I don't know very many 49er sailors.

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I will lay you odds that the new sail will be faster around the course than the existing sail.

 

If it has better longevity than the current sail it will be a success.

 

If it is anything like the radial sail in setup, handling, and feel the full rig laser will feel like a new boat.

 

With 200,000 boats sold and active weekend fleets all around the country I do not think you can get better value racing for your dollar anywhere else.

 

There should be greater disclosure to class members of what is occurring. A timeline of how they propose to release the new sail should be the minimum expectation of class members but good luck with that....

They have not at this time even informed dealers of what is going on.

 

It is possible they are selling of old inventory whilst building up a supply of the new sails but it is also quite likely we are all waiting on the next Olympic cycle for the release of the new sail.

 

It was originally slated for release around October of this year but that never happened and now all has gone silent on this issue.

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I will lay you odds that the new sail will be faster around the course than the existing sail.

 

If it has better longevity than the current sail it will be a success.

 

If it is anything like the radial sail in setup, handling, and feel the full rig laser will feel like a new boat.

 

With 200,000 boats sold and active weekend fleets all around the country I do not think you can get better value racing for your dollar anywhere else.

 

There should be greater disclosure to class members of what is occurring. A timeline of how they propose to release the new sail should be the minimum expectation of class members but good luck with that....

They have not at this time even informed dealers of what is going on.

 

It is possible they are selling of old inventory whilst building up a supply of the new sails but it is also quite likely we are all waiting on the next Olympic cycle for the release of the new sail.

 

It was originally slated for release around October of this year but that never happened and now all has gone silent on this issue.

 

I'm not saying it is not a good class but I am saying changes to the class do not come often so when they do, make the most of it. A fast sail or a slow sail built out of the same material will roughly be the same amount of money. As for the one design, the class seemed to handle the control systems change, why not the best dacron design possible?

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I will lay you odds that the new sail will be faster around the course than the existing sail.

 

If it has better longevity than the current sail it will be a success.

 

If it is anything like the radial sail in setup, handling, and feel the full rig laser will feel like a new boat.

 

With 200,000 boats sold and active weekend fleets all around the country I do not think you can get better value racing for your dollar anywhere else.

 

There should be greater disclosure to class members of what is occurring. A timeline of how they propose to release the new sail should be the minimum expectation of class members but good luck with that....

They have not at this time even informed dealers of what is going on.

 

It is possible they are selling of old inventory whilst building up a supply of the new sails but it is also quite likely we are all waiting on the next Olympic cycle for the release of the new sail.

 

It was originally slated for release around October of this year but that never happened and now all has gone silent on this issue.

 

Not sure where you got the information that the sail was slated for release in October 2010. The new sail was only discussed and approved at the Class Council meeting in September (Hayling Island England between the Open Worlds and the Masters Worlds). Since it was only approved in September, there is no way they could have released the sail in October with sufficient inventory to meet the demand.

 

As for the new sail being somewhat faster, I would expect that right out of the bag, during the first year of use, there will be very little if any performance improvement with the new sail. As the new sail becomes more popular, and more and more people learn what makes it tick, I expect the performance will improve to a point it is faster than the old sail.

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Not doubting what you've heard DancingBear, but wondering who your source is?

 

 

Anyway, about that sail...

 

If Dancing Bear were to tell you, he would have to sacrifice you to the Chesapeake Bay monster crocs.

Well sort of ;) I received the information from someone that is very much in the know (certainly as much as anyone else in North America). Since I did not ask for permission to name the person, and they did not grant said permission, I really can't mention names.

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Not sure where you got the information that the sail was slated for release in October 2010. The new sail was only discussed and approved at the Class Council meeting in September (Hayling Island England between the Open Worlds and the Masters Worlds). Since it was only approved in September, there is no way they could have released the sail in October with sufficient inventory to meet the demand.

 

As for the new sail being somewhat faster, I would expect that right out of the bag, during the first year of use, there will be very little if any performance improvement with the new sail. As the new sail becomes more popular, and more and more people learn what makes it tick, I expect the performance will improve to a point it is faster than the old sail.

 

Not at liberty to say who I spoke to but some stock had already been made prior to October and the release date for October/November was deferred. There are enough new sails made now to start selling to the whole world.

 

Regarding your second reply to me. We shall see. I have used a prototype and seen it being used by many others and I am fairly confident that in hiking breezes it will be quicker and will be easier to sail, max draft should stay where you want it rather than drifting back, particularly as the sail ages.

 

You said,

there will be very little if any performance improvement with the new sail
.

 

Even it is just a "very little" difference, in a Laser that translates into a huge difference. A little difference may be just 25 meters on the first beat and that translates into a mark rounding in the top 10 rather than in the high 20's.

 

I said it will be faster around the course and not on any particular leg and I will stand by that. I will lay odds that in a decent breeze upwind this sail will be a little quicker.

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Not sure where you got the information that the sail was slated for release in October 2010. The new sail was only discussed and approved at the Class Council meeting in September (Hayling Island England between the Open Worlds and the Masters Worlds). Since it was only approved in September, there is no way they could have released the sail in October with sufficient inventory to meet the demand.

 

As for the new sail being somewhat faster, I would expect that right out of the bag, during the first year of use, there will be very little if any performance improvement with the new sail. As the new sail becomes more popular, and more and more people learn what makes it tick, I expect the performance will improve to a point it is faster than the old sail.

 

Not at liberty to say who I spoke to but some stock had already been made prior to October and the release date for October/November was deferred. There are enough new sails made now to start selling to the whole world.

 

Regarding your second reply to me. We shall see. I have used a prototype and seen it being used by many others and I am fairly confident that in hiking breezes it will be quicker and will be easier to sail, max draft should stay where you want it rather than drifting back, particularly as the sail ages.

 

You said,

there will be very little if any performance improvement with the new sail
.

 

Even it is just a "very little" difference, in a Laser that translates into a huge difference. A little difference may be just 25 meters on the first beat and that translates into a mark rounding in the top 10 rather than in the high 20's.

 

I said it will be faster around the course and not on any particular leg and I will stand by that. I will lay odds that in a decent breeze upwind this sail will be a little quicker.

I think the point you made about the draft not drifting back as the sail ages is very well taken. I did say the sail will be more durable, so yes, a two regatta old version of the new sail will be faster than a two regatta old version of the current sail. Please note that when I said not significantly faster, this is what I was told, I have nothing more to back it up, other than ILCA asked the sailmakers to design a sail that would not improve performance right out of the bag. I do tend to agree with you that the new sail will probably be slightly faster. It would be hard not to make it any faster. We shall see....

 

From what I heard (and I could say from where), is it will be released for the northerners summer. Which will give time for the good sailors to get used to it.

That is precisely what I have heard, April/May time frame.

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From what I heard (and I could say from where), is it will be released for the northerners summer. Which will give time for the good sailors to get used to it.

That is precisely what I have heard, April/May time frame.

 

Don't the changes need to be approved by ISAF before they can go ahead? Or has this already secretly happened?

 

The 'official' word from the ILCA in the December Laserworld newsletter:

 

"We decided that further investigations are required before a final decision can be taken. This, however, should be possible in the next few months and will be announced by the builders and the class."

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New sail impcat on a typical fat old fart sailor who plans to sail the masters Worlds in san Francisco....

 

1. No way I shall buy a new sail until it is THE new sail.

 

2. Usually, new sail designs in the laser class come out a little differently than they are built and manufactured a year later. The sailors find stuff thr developers simpoly failed to notice and modifications have always been necessary.

 

3. There is a masters worlds coming up and if I want to keep up I will not just need a new design sail but many months to learn from those clever enough to figure it out and willing to tell me what they know anout making it work.

 

4. If I get a new sail to use while I learn, It will be used up before the Masters Worlds.

 

5. If I want to be competitive at the masters Worlds I should take a good look at that second sail before simply showing up with it hoping I got "one of the good ones." That includes sailing with it a few times to be certain.

 

6. As the masters Worlds are only 200 days away...my budget "if there is a new sail available for the regatta" has already gone up about the same amount I spend on lunch each day.

 

7. I need to lose about 50 lbs to be world class competitive size and weight.....see number 6

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  • 2 months later...

Why not fast forward to the future with this sail?

 

Design by Bill Hansen of Hansen Sails.

Concept by yours truly, project started 1991. Sail (prototype #5) in photo taken 2006.

Sailor: Andre Denaise

 

We contacted the Laser class. It requested a proposal. We sent a proposal and never heard a word after that. Nary a peep.

 

Hansen Sails will make one of these beauties if you like. Contact: http://www.hansensails.com/

post-27689-023421200 1302101003_thumb.jpg

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Why not fast forward to the future with this sail?

 

Design by Bill Hansen of Hansen Sails.

Concept by yours truly, project started 1991. Sail (prototype #5) in photo taken 2006.

Sailor: Andre Denaise

 

We contacted the Laser class. It requested a proposal. We sent a proposal and never heard a word after that. Nary a peep.

 

Hansen Sails will make one of these beauties if you like. Contact: http://www.hansensails.com/

 

Can you get these new Hansen Sails made with wrinkles?

 

It just doesn't seem right, yet almost makes the Laser appealing ... Someone better slap me! :huh:

Viel Spass,

 

Fish

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Why not fast forward to the future with this sail?

 

Design by Bill Hansen of Hansen Sails.

Concept by yours truly, project started 1991. Sail (prototype #5) in photo taken 2006.

Sailor: Andre Denaise

 

We contacted the Laser class. It requested a proposal. We sent a proposal and never heard a word after that. Nary a peep.

 

Hansen Sails will make one of these beauties if you like. Contact: http://www.hansensails.com/

 

If I put that on my Laser, it would just rip out the mast hole again :lol:.

 

Does look nice though.

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Common misconception - you can only rip out the mast hole according to your weight and ability to hike out. The sail is lower drag and de-powers easily so mast hole rip outs have not been a significant Turbo-related problem. Other holes may actually tighten a bit though... ;-)

 

If I put that on my Laser, it would just rip out the mast hole again :lol:.

Does look nice though.

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If the principles of "The Shock Doctrine", as written by Naomi Klein (I suspect she is small as far as Naomi's go), are used in perhaps a fundamental change to the class can be made.

 

Simply put:

 

1) wait for the class to get into disarray, luckily this is happening at the moment with the voting

 

2) make substantial changes that you normally could not achieve, as people are focusing too much on the disarray

 

3) voila. Lasers with modern sails that last a long time, almost make the boat look sexy ("you can't polish a turd, however you can roll it in sequins and sparkles"), and increase the speed of the boats just a fraction.

 

In fact this might be the only case where The Shock Doctrine has been used for good and not evil. B)

 

Happy sailing,

 

Fish

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Why not fast forward to the future with this sail?

 

Design by Bill Hansen of Hansen Sails.

Concept by yours truly, project started 1991. Sail (prototype #5) in photo taken 2006.

Sailor: Andre Denaise

 

We contacted the Laser class. It requested a proposal. We sent a proposal and never heard a word after that. Nary a peep.

 

Hansen Sails will make one of these beauties if you like. Contact: http://www.hansensails.com/

 

If I put that on my Laser, it would just rip out the mast hole again :lol:.

 

Does look nice though.

 

 

 

Point to note. The sail in the photo the post above was "camber induced". In windsurfing parlance this means it has plastic gizmos on the front end of the battens that when pressed against the mast, imparting shape into the sail creating what might be termed an "aero-elastic membrane". These gizmos are features on race sails for windsurfers and also on Moths. Camber Inducers in this case increase foil stability resulting in much easier handling when over-powered. This stability is really quite remarkable! You can hike fully extended when passing through the backwind of a 50 footer and not capsize to windward! When the foil doesn't collapse, laminar flow is maintained and more easily re-established. Unfortunately this foil stability comes at a cost of sensitivity and performance in 0-6 knot winds. In 0-6 the wind doesn't want to attach to deeply curved foil, making soft sails superior.

 

To remedy this absence of light wind sensitivity, Bill Hansen and I decided that the next prototype would not feature the camber inducers, rather merely have full-length battens. This increased the sail's light wind sensitivity with a small reduction of draft stability and L/D when over-powered. Another benefit of no camber inducers is the sail is so much easier to rig! Bill Hansen has some of these models available for shipping at this time. I gave the wrong website before. The right website is http://www.hansenaerosports.com

 

The photo is of the later camber inducer-less model.

 

We aren't trying to mess up a one design class. With several thousand active class members and over 200,000 boats, there are at least 190,000 or so Laser owners out there who do not race and who might want to go a little faster with a cool looking sail. This sail is for them, not the die-hard one design racers!

 

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You can't design a faster sail though, once you start changing a one design class they die, fact.

 

What facts do you have to back that claim up? Because there's plenty of dead SMOD classes in england who didn't have the balls to change. I haven't heard of any 49er sailors leaving the class because of the sail change but I'll admit that I don't know very many 49er sailors.

 

i know one or two teams that left the class when the new rigs came out after the last olympics.

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Ortega:

Sorry about the website problems.

Email to info@hansensails.com to order one. We have several in stock.

Here is a pic of the tight-sleeved model.

 

Measurements are:

Luff = 515.8cm = 16'11"

Foot = 274.0cm = 9'0"

Head = 108.6 cm = 3'6.75"

Area = 11.16sqm = 120sqft

 

Fits standard rigging components with no mods but the new class-legal vang and downhaul are recommended.

 

I want one now, plz advise website that works, have been keen on hansen for a while now,thx!!

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Ortega:

Sorry about the website problems.

Email to info@hansensails.com to order one. We have several in stock.

Here is a pic of the tight-sleeved model.

 

Measurements are:

Luff = 515.8cm = 16'11"

Foot = 274.0cm = 9'0"

Head = 108.6 cm = 3'6.75"

Area = 11.16sqm = 120sqft

 

Fits standard rigging components with no mods but the new class-legal vang and downhaul are recommended.

 

I want one now, plz advise website that works, have been keen on hansen for a while now,thx!!

 

How much is this?

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There has been talk about it from several areas including yours. Mostly by heavier, more 'mature' guys who want to have some fun racing each other. The Laser 'authorities' frown on it even though it might actually create more interest in their boats.

 

120 sq ft sail? I'm interested now........

 

Think a side fleet of these would catch on in the US?

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No idea.

But, my personal experience dealing with ratings officials on squarehead sails retro-fitted to existing boats indicates they won't be too friendly. This is slowly changing as it is becoming more mainstream and less of a disruptive technology...

 

Any idea what the Portsmouth rating would be with one of them? Love to race a friendly with it!

 

Guess who won this race?

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Here are a few pics of a very big, athletic guy in 20-25+ on SF Bay. The boat and rig survived but do not expect any warranty claims since using this sail has been deemed 'illegal.' He had a lot of fun except for the spray in his face...

 

Think the current two piece aluminum rig could handle this larger set up with a Finn size guy (like me) hiking hard in 20+?

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I think this is a great idea for bigger guys like myself who don't want a Finn but would love a one man boat. Any ideas on what this potential new class could be called? I vote Laser SS :lol: .

 

There has got to be more people interested than just me........

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It would be nice to see some pics of the rig being used by a decent Laser sailor , and to get some feedback from someone with a decent ranking. All the above pics are of some social sailors, none of them are loading the rig anywhere near the loads a pro sailor would.

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It would be nice to see some pics of the rig being used by a decent Laser sailor , and to get some feedback from someone with a decent ranking. All the above pics are of some social sailors, none of them are loading the rig anywhere near the loads a pro sailor would.

 

 

 

 

I'm not convinced either, It's larger then the Finn main and has a square top. The Finns carbon masts are a bit more sophisticated then the Laser's aluminium poles. It may depower well, but there's no way a Laser sailor could hike hard enough. The Rooster8.1 is for over 90kilos. But on the other hand, looks super cool, and must be thrilling for bigger dudes / in lighter winds.

 

 

 

 

edit: Oh, and it's cheap! Aside from the delivery it's cheaper then the standard sail from the local retailer.

 

 

 

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I'd like to see how the rig handles with a pro sailing as well. It is exciting to see (at least for me, being a Finn sized guy). Honestly, if this catches on I am gonna buy in. I spent years racing Lasers, and bummed when I become to big to be competitive. This way I could get back into the boat with a sail that would reflect guys my size. Lasers are affordable and fun....I'd be stoked!

 

But I would like to see more testing and feedback. I'd be afraid of going through top sections like toilet paper. It also seems that Laser Performance is raising their noses on this and pushing it aside. Thats a shame, because it could bring in more interest (and business) in the Laser. Its not like the sailors interested in this set up would be taking away from the normal one design racing of the original Laser. We could just set up our own class and do our own thing, not taking away from the regular Laser guys. I still think this has potential and I wish it would get more support.

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I think the sailmakers will cause the change..

they will run out of people that know how to make a sail as bad as a std laser one.

 

Although the current sailmakers probably love the standard sails as their margins must be massive.

Quite simply the class is NOT looking after their member's pockets. So exactly who is on the take with all of this is another important question! :-S

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Major Tom, Barney, other doubters et al:

Our Laser Turbo sail was introduced several years ago after a substantial development period and a number of protos and 'tweaks.'A search of this site will show more info. The pics I recently posted were taken at the StFYC in San Francisco during the extremely windy Laser Slalom Event 3 years ago. A number of top StFYC sailors used it there. Tracy Usher, well-known Laser Master competitor was using it in the race pics. The sail was Demo-ed at the Laser Master Nationals in Cascade Locks under the auspices of West Coast Saling and tested by a number of sailors at that event. It was also tested by sailors at the Willamette Sailing Club in Portland, OR during their weekly Laser races which attract a large fleet. We think the sail has had plenty of top-level sailors of all weights and in all conditions test it. I would not call them pros or 'social' sailors in fear of insulting them. Not one tester had anything but rip-roaring fun with it. There is no question the aluminum irrigation pipe rig of a Laser is deficient. The std sail bends plenty of them. We offered to help the Class develop a contemporary carbon fiber mast to go along with the sail. In the end, we think the sail stands on it's own feet either way. If you want more testing, they are available for sale and we encourage customer reports. The price is reasonable considering the top quality Dimension Polyant laminates and carbon composite battens. Compare it to the Rooster 8.1 (which requires a bigger rig.) If you want more development, that is an R&D project that needs funding. We've already done much of that and we're ready to do more when someone (like the class association) steps up. Until then, it is what it is, a quick, economical and contemporary way to turn those old Lasers languishing in backyards into a fun sailboat. Instead of waiting for it to catch on, you can easily join the future now...

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Barney:

Here is a pic of Turbo prototype being tested on San Francisco Bay. As a result of this test, we changed the luff curve to add shape and eliminate the overbend wrinkle that can be see in the lower part of the sail. The Turbo sailor weighs about 190-200 pounds plus wetsuit, etc. Wind is 20-25. Both sails are sheeted the same. Notice the AOA, draft and twist profiles of the Turbo rig. Heeling moment is a complex combination of factors beyond the simple outline of a sail.

 

The Turbo sail was designed to 'light the boat up' in moderate to light winds where it suffers in the hands of heavier sailors. But, that does not mean it is deficient or untested in high winds. The standard controls of outhaul, downhaul, vang and sheet make the squarehead Turbo easily as versatile (actually more) than a dacron triangle with the draft moving back to the leech under load.

 

What would you say the minimum weight is to keep the boat flat in 20 knots upwind? Few years back I've read a study stating that the optimal Finn sailor is 103 kilos.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Barney:

Here is a pic of Turbo prototype being tested on San Francisco Bay. As a result of this test, we changed the luff curve to add shape and eliminate the overbend wrinkle that can be see in the lower part of the sail. The Turbo sailor weighs about 190-200 pounds plus wetsuit, etc. Wind is 20-25. Both sails are sheeted the same. Notice the AOA, draft and twist profiles of the Turbo rig. Heeling moment is a complex combination of factors beyond the simple outline of a sail.

 

The Turbo sail was designed to 'light the boat up' in moderate to light winds where it suffers in the hands of heavier sailors. But, that does not mean it is deficient or untested in high winds. The standard controls of outhaul, downhaul, vang and sheet make the squarehead Turbo easily as versatile (actually more) than a dacron triangle with the draft moving back to the leech under load.

 

What would you say the minimum weight is to keep the boat flat in 20 knots upwind? Few years back I've read a study stating that the optimal Finn sailor is 103 kilos.

 

......as much as this sail looks wonderful,,I cannot think that it's a very effective design to use with the standard spars.It's one thing to test in high winds with today's typical laser sailor,,but once the heavyweights take up the thrill of this new sail,,,I cannot think the spars will be up to grunt on this!!

....case in point,,,recently in mexico,,a blustery ~40-45knot day,,,bodyweight 205lbs,,,standard sail----result??....one broken bottomsection(old and asking for it),,,and one severely bent forwards/sideways in a particularly gnarly puff......as much as the situation was extreme,with a larger sail,,this type of damage would occur at lighter windspeeds,once heavier sailors are involved,no??

.......I'll be an early order once there's a nice 2 peice carbon mast to go with the sail!

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Couch:

IMHO, your measure of 'effective design' is pretty extreme. We designed, built, tested and 'tweaked' a modern sail to fit a widely distributed existing boat and make it more interesting and fun for the large portion of the normal-use envelope, i.e. average-to-heavier sailors in light-to-moderate winds. You've proven the std rig and sail will self-destruct in 45knots with a 205# sailor. How is building a custom mast to self-destruct less, a measure of sail design effectiveness? Our goal was accomplished and our users are quite happy. Building hi-tech, custom parts so a Laser could be transformed into a 45knot Open Class record-beater simply was not part of our mission.

 

In engineering, a properly-designed construct will destroy itself completely at the limit with all parts failing at once. My view of the Laser is that it fits this criteria. If we build a stronger mast, then the mast step, then the tiller and rudder, then the centerboard, then the hull, then the hiking straps, cleats and blocks will pull out. We fix all that and for sure the Turbo sail will be very effective in 40-45. But, it already is in 10-20 where most Lasers get sailed...

Cheers!

- Bill Hansen

 

 

 

......as much as this sail looks wonderful,,I cannot think that it's a very effective design to use with the standard spars.It's one thing to test in high winds with today's typical laser sailor,,but once the heavyweights take up the thrill of this new sail,,,I cannot think the spars will be up to grunt on this!!

....case in point,,,recently in mexico,,a blustery ~40-45knot day,,,bodyweight 205lbs,,,standard sail----result??....one broken bottomsection(old and asking for it),,,and one severely bent forwards/sideways in a particularly gnarly puff......as much as the situation was extreme,with a larger sail,,this type of damage would occur at lighter windspeeds,once heavier sailors are involved,no??

.......I'll be an early order once there's a nice 2 peice carbon mast to go with the sail!

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I understand the point couch was making, Bill. This sail is going to be awesome for bigger guys like me, but I would also be worried about the top section in 25 kts of breeze. 45 kts, I would think the regular Laser would self destruct, not just your rig. It does look like this rig was tested in some higher winds judging by the pics, and I honestly don't see that much more bend in the rig when it was next to a regular full rig, so perhaps the current rig is more than capable.

 

Seen anymore interest peak up lately?

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JK:

A fully-battened squarehead distributes the loads on the mast differently than a tight-leeched triangle. It is fairly easy to let the head twist off and drive from the lower sections keeping the draft forward and maintaining balance. Clearly on a broad, over-powered reach the bigger sail will load up the rig more. That said, we have not seen any mast failures exclusively attributable to the Turbo vs regular sail. There are not a lot of heavyweights using Turbos regularly in 25knots so the possibility of future problems certainly exists but we have done considerable testing in that regard with good results. Had we seen consistent and numerous mast failures in our testing, we would clearly have reduced the sail's area and power to eliminate them. I keep responding to these questions because there seems to be a notion the sail is an ill-conceived and untested recent development. That notion is simply untrue.

 

Interest has been inconsistently steady for the last few years. When the topic show up here, we do get some inquiries...

 

 

I understand the point couch was making, Bill. This sail is going to be awesome for bigger guys like me, but I would also be worried about the top section in 25 kts of breeze. 45 kts, I would think the regular Laser would self destruct, not just your rig. It does look like this rig was tested in some higher winds judging by the pics, and I honestly don't see that much more bend in the rig when it was next to a regular full rig, so perhaps the current rig is more than capable.

 

Seen anymore interest peak up lately?

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.......... If we build a stronger mast, then the mast step, then the tiller and rudder, then the centerboard, then the hull, then the hiking straps, cleats and blocks will pull out.

 

......err,,howdya know what the boat looked like?? :blink:

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....case in point,,,recently in mexico,,a blustery ~40-45knot day,,,bodyweight 205lbs,,,standard sail

 

Sorry dude, I call BS on this one. Like even the Olympians head for cover in mid-thirties.

Where's that rudder guy who is the designated anarchal expert? How much wind before a Laser cannot stay upright even with flogging sail?

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I gotta call bullshit on the 40-45knts...46-51 miles per hours no farking way.

...whatever....I was at a kiteboard place on baja,,more than a few windgauges and witnesses

....so what wind do you -think- it takes to blow-out 2 bottom-sections???.

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....case in point,,,recently in mexico,,a blustery ~40-45knot day,,,bodyweight 205lbs,,,standard sail

 

Sorry dude, I call BS on this one. Like even the Olympians head for cover in mid-thirties.

Where's that rudder guy who is the designated anarchal expert? How much wind before a Laser cannot stay upright even with flogging sail?

..years back,in my prime,spent the winter training in Falmouth,England after the worlds there.There's a coast guard station right where I was sailing-fairly regularly clocked mid-40's.In those winds,you start to make little headway upwind,makes strong wind racing seem like kid-stuff,,and quite frustrating when a raceday's cancelled for too much wind.

....a key 'adjustment' to the gear is to add a ~14'' sleeve to the topsection ;)

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Does this sail have to be approved by Laser Performance before it will get a rating of any kind to be used in mixed racing? Has anyone heard anything from the ILCA (Laser Class Association) as to whether or not they are thinking of accepting this sail design for another class of Lasers?

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Here's some heavy air laser sailing ...

 

 

and MY fav ...

 

 

just leave the sail alone and enjoy learning how to handle the boat the way it was designed. That is the art of the laser and for that matter any one design.

 

just a note.

 

I don't disapprove of the fake sails out there ... just don't change the cut.

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I grew up handling the boat the way it was designed for many many years. I think this new sail design is great for us grown ups who are too big to be competitive in the regular OD. Like I said before, it wouldn't be taking away from the current OD racing, it would just be another option for us bigger dudes who would love to get back to racing Lasers, especially with a bigger sail.

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