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NMMA has been supporting sailing for a long time using the powerboat manufacturers money to help sailing. They find many of the manufacturers in sailing won't support an industry campaign and they don't get it how a national campaign can help them. Comparing the numbers of power to sail, power is the 900lb gorilla. I would hope NMMA keeps trying to help sailing and its manufacturers out.

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Thanks.  Jon Santarelli was one of ours.  One of the Area 3 good guys. We sailed may miles together and drank many different types of alcoholic drinks together.  We did Macs on Goblin together an

I do love it and the factors you lay out have very little to do with my love it. - Low turn out. : whether there are 8 boats in my class to race against or 16, we are still racing just as hard.

Allan Teske crossed the bar on April 30th. Others are more familiar with his accomplishments than myself, so feel free to add anything I missed Over 50 Chicago Macs Master Mariner

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You guys are barking up the wrong tree. As someone pointed out earlier the yacht clubs have little interest in helping anything except their members. Many of the older boat owners (many dying off now) came up in sailing on the cheap and with little help from the traditional yacht clubs. Many came from little money and once they had a little bought a cheap sailboat to have fun and maybe try out the racing scene. Some of these people became hooked on racing and kept doing it. You know who these people were, they sailed boats like Nightmare, Pied Piper, Thirsty Tiger and others. Now many of them are dead or retired.

 

Unfortunately there is not much of a pipeline of younger people moving in the same direction. Park District sailing programs where some of the interest must begin are an afterthought. Where are the young people who don't have parents into sailing going to learn? Community sailing programs seem to be dying or on life support. We need to work to revive these programs to bring in people from outside the sailing community who will develop an interest and continue sailing as they get older. I know this is a long term solution but we need to start implementing it soon otherwise we will have no one to race against in the future.

 

Very good point.

 

Almost all intro to sailing programs do not have a "next step." Think of the adult sailing schools, charter, time-shares, etc. They try to keep the sailors to themselves for their own revenue stream. Many want to move on, don't know where to go, and give up. It would be great to have evenings with these people to explain to them the steps to boat ownership, how to join a yacht club, how to try racing, what is involved in an around the world sail, or whatever avenue their ultimate idea of sailing is.

 

In other regions of the country there are commercial associations, we don't have one in this region to bring the commercial interests together to develop synergies. Wisconsin has one that covers the whole State. Michigan has one that covers the whole State. Then there is the 900 pound gorilla, the National Marine Manufacturers Association HQ'd right here in Chicago which most don't even know their name.

Good luck in getting some of these commercial interests to align. They all seem to be in a churn and burn mode- to the chagrin of the sport. In CA- we have a few in the Bay Area and they (charter/frac operators ) have all but killed any growth pipeline. They operate like an amway salesperson or MLM group trying to get you in to pad their profit margin with no real connection to the sport.

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Good points Glenn. The NMMA has pretty much washed its hands of sailing and the sailboat industry.

Unfortunately, the trade association for the sailboat industry, Sail America, is in disarray. They no

longer have an "Association Manager", and the Board President, Scot West of Ronstan, was named

head of Ronstan International, and is spending a lot of his time in Australia. They will be holding

their Sailing Industry Conference in Milwaukee, May 31st to June 2. You might want to see if you

can get some of your ideas on the agenda. If past experience is any indication, the conference

has had good attendance from industry folks. They might be willing to listen. Also, the Milwaukee

experiment-the Milwaukee Bay Alternative Sailing Series- seemed successful and has now

changed its name to Saturday Afternoon Sailing Series (SASS). A final wrap up meeting was

held Oct. 26 with lots of feed back to help improve next year's program.

Don't you guys have a local guy on the SailAmerica board? http://www.sailamerica.com/about/board-of-directors/

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Good points Glenn. The NMMA has pretty much washed its hands of sailing and the sailboat industry.

Unfortunately, the trade association for the sailboat industry, Sail America, is in disarray. They no

longer have an "Association Manager", and the Board President, Scot West of Ronstan, was named

head of Ronstan International, and is spending a lot of his time in Australia. They will be holding

their Sailing Industry Conference in Milwaukee, May 31st to June 2. You might want to see if you

can get some of your ideas on the agenda. If past experience is any indication, the conference

has had good attendance from industry folks. They might be willing to listen. Also, the Milwaukee

experiment-the Milwaukee Bay Alternative Sailing Series- seemed successful and has now

changed its name to Saturday Afternoon Sailing Series (SASS). A final wrap up meeting was

held Oct. 26 with lots of feed back to help improve next year's program.

Don't you guys have a local guy on the SailAmerica board? http://www.sailamerica.com/about/board-of-directors/

 

 

 

Yes. Lou Sandoval is from Chicago.

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www.chicagosailracing.org

 

They have a nice website. Great start!

Great website - and they say they will use yacht scoring, huge improvement IMO.

 

You'd think there would be some sort of "get involved" link or some other way to offer support?

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www.chicagosailracing.org

 

They have a nice website. Great start!

Great website - and they say they will use yacht scoring, huge improvement IMO.

 

You'd think there would be some sort of "get involved" link or some other way to offer support?

 

It's early days.... I'm sure (hope) in time there will be a way to get involved, and online posting of the by-laws, race schedule, links to registration/results (YS), and a boat/crew finder board.

 

I also assume this (CASRA) is the mechanism by which the Grand Prix/Gran Touring delineation, scheduling, and management gets accomplished. I think the two-tier idea has merit and should be pursued, as a way to get the 4kSBs and 6kSBs out of their slips/moorings on a Saturday. The one thing I differ in is requiring YC membership after 1 year. I would do away with that, because I think that could be counterproductive. Many of the folk with the 4kSBs may not really want to be bothered - they will see it as a low value/high cost proposition (they'd already be YC members if they thought that it provided them something they wanted (dining, cruising fleet activities, socialization, etc.). All racers shod be allowed to participate in post-race festivities at the sponsoring club without YC membership or reciprocity, to maintain the social interaction. For some 4kSB owners full-on YC membership may be intimidating or too "blue-blazer"-ish...even affordable and casual CCYC may not be a good for for a south- or southwest-suburban owner who can't get there often enough to make use of the facility (esp if their boat is in Monro, 31st, or DuSable). Maybe offer/require membership on CASRA for a nominal fee (40 bucks a year)... this provides for membership revenue and also a sense of belonging, without the trappings of a full on YC. (I suppose membership in a "paper club" like SAYC would suffice to met the original requirement, but would not provide the modest revenue stream for CASRA that might help w/race management or participation efforts.)

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www.chicagosailracing.org

 

They have a nice website. Great start!

Great website - and they say they will use yacht scoring, huge improvement IMO.

 

You'd think there would be some sort of "get involved" link or some other way to offer support?

 

It's early days.... I'm sure (hope) in time there will be a way to get involved, and online posting of the by-laws, race schedule, links to registration/results (YS), and a boat/crew finder board.

 

I also assume this (CASRA) is the mechanism by which the Grand Prix/Gran Touring delineation, scheduling, and management gets accomplished. I think the two-tier idea has merit and should be pursued, as a way to get the 4kSBs and 6kSBs out of their slips/moorings on a Saturday. The one thing I differ in is requiring YC membership after 1 year. I would do away with that, because I think that could be counterproductive. Many of the folk with the 4kSBs may not really want to be bothered - they will see it as a low value/high cost proposition (they'd already be YC members if they thought that it provided them something they wanted (dining, cruising fleet activities, socialization, etc.). All racers shod be allowed to participate in post-race festivities at the sponsoring club without YC membership or reciprocity, to maintain the social interaction. For some 4kSB owners full-on YC membership may be intimidating or too "blue-blazer"-ish...even affordable and casual CCYC may not be a good for for a south- or southwest-suburban owner who can't get there often enough to make use of the facility (esp if their boat is in Monro, 31st, or DuSable). Maybe offer/require membership on CASRA for a nominal fee (40 bucks a year)... this provides for membership revenue and also a sense of belonging, without the trappings of a full on YC. (I suppose membership in a "paper club" like SAYC would suffice to met the original requirement, but would not provide the modest revenue stream for CASRA that might help w/race management or participation efforts.)

 

You have heard of MORF, right?

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www.chicagosailracing.org

 

They have a nice website. Great start!

Great website - and they say they will use yacht scoring, huge improvement IMO.

 

You'd think there would be some sort of "get involved" link or some other way to offer support?

 

Just called some sailpals back in the windy city- they will be having townhall meetings. sounds like a great effort, well thought out.

 

Midpack- AIII is dead. The brainstrust at LMSRF killed it. Probably long overdue. My recollection is old on this (circa 2001) but LMSRF, LMPHRF and A3 were part of the bureaucracy problem that led (in part) to some of the decline in chicago sailing. Too complicated. Being fair- LMSRF's youth grant program is useful- so hopefully they can focus on that. Their whole grandprix bahoooey is so out of touch with where the sport is today.

 

when you think about it- A3 ran nothing, they didn't even schedule things correctly as the real organizers of the races are the clubs that formed Casra. The gunpowder behind this casra group is strong- the bigger organizing clubs with the largest interests in making sure Sailing lives in chi-town. over and out.

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Will MORF be involved with CASRA?

 

As far as I know, only the "brick and mortar" clubs have been invited to the CASRA table so far. MORF will surely host the MORF Open, as they always have. MORF will likely schedule that so it doesn't confict with an event that a CASRA club is hosting.

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Will MORF be involved with CASRA?

As far as I know, only the "brick and mortar" clubs have been invited to the CASRA table so far. MORF will surely host the MORF Open, as they always have. MORF will likely schedule that so it doesn't confict with an event that a CASRA club is hosting.

 

On any given weekend in the summer there is some MORF bullshit that conflicts with what the other clubs are doing, what makes you think that they will do differently now that all of the clubs have gotten together and excluded them?

 

Frankly, I could give half a shit about any of the MORF stuff, but when everybody talks about getting the idle 4ksbs out racing on the weekends, what do you guys think the currently racing 4ksbs are doing on weekends?

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Will MORF be involved with CASRA?

As far as I know, only the "brick and mortar" clubs have been invited to the CASRA table so far. MORF will surely host the MORF Open, as they always have. MORF will likely schedule that so it doesn't confict with an event that a CASRA club is hosting.

 

On any given weekend in the summer there is some MORF bullshit that conflicts with what the other clubs are doing, what makes you think that they will do differently now that all of the clubs have gotten together and excluded them?

 

Frankly, I could give half a shit about any of the MORF stuff, but when everybody talks about getting the idle 4ksbs out racing on the weekends, what do you guys think the currently racing 4ksbs are doing on weekends?

 

Is morf still the cheapskate fleet like it always was? It seems that with the decline in numbers- they may be down to very few boats? Are most morf members still columbia members? I seem to remember a few (whisper, sorcerer ) that were. Then again, I'm going back to 2001 in the wayback machine.

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Will MORF be involved with CASRA?

As far as I know, only the "brick and mortar" clubs have been invited to the CASRA table so far. MORF will surely host the MORF Open, as they always have. MORF will likely schedule that so it doesn't confict with an event that a CASRA club is hosting.

 

On any given weekend in the summer there is some MORF bullshit that conflicts with what the other clubs are doing, what makes you think that they will do differently now that all of the clubs have gotten together and excluded them?

 

Frankly, I could give half a shit about any of the MORF stuff, but when everybody talks about getting the idle 4ksbs out racing on the weekends, what do you guys think the currently racing 4ksbs are doing on weekends?

 

 

I don't want to sound like the spokesman for MORF, because I'm not. I've simply raced with that group for quite a long time.

 

For as long as I can remember, MORF has been doing their own thing. They have hosted an Area III event called the MORF Open at the end of the season. Anybody wanting to sail PHRF can race. It has in the past been scheduled with the Area III steering committee (rip), when none of the other LMSRF A3 clubs have a race planned. The end of September is still a great time for racing here.

 

The only other club that's consistently running PHRF buoy racing on weekends seems to be Corinthian YC. They're doing a great job! LMSRF A3 clubs have been running LD races with decent PHRF participation. So what are the 4ksbs doing on weekends? Some of them have come to race MORF... even a few 5ksbs.

 

As to being the cheapskate club... I'd rather say value club. It costs $190 for a full season of more than 30 race days. $75 for the first season That's less than $7/race... less than a sixer of decent beer. There are some advantages of not having a building to maintain. Morfers come from Burnham, Jackson, Columbia, and many that don't belong to any yacht club at all.

 

The number of active boats in MORF hasn't changed much over the last 9 years. That's rather remarkable given that (according to one source), sailboat racing has seen a 40% decline.

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You have heard of MORF, right?

 

 

 

Indeed I have. I was a member back in the late 80's when I owned my J-27. Being a poor lad at the time, I used it mostly as a "paper club" to allow entry in A3 races, and did not actually do any MORF races.

 

I don't know if this is still the case (CG, fill us in), but MORF used to have a lower limit on ratings. So someone with a 36+ foot reasonably nimble cruiser/racer could not actually participate in MORF events (e.g., Bene 36.7, J-105, Bene 42.7). A3 was the only option. If that is still the case, then you can see how there needs to be an outlet for the 6kSB (think of cruiser/racers 36', 40', etc.) to learn to race in a less stressful environment.

 

Anyhow, as CG has pointed out, MORF did not organize any A3 races except for the end-of-season MORF Open. So they do not fit into the "mold" of the other traditional A3 clubs that all used to sponsor numerous day races. As a result, it may make sense that they are not (initially?) part of CASRA.

 

As for as potential confllcts between the MORF schedule and the Gran Touring schedule - given that MORF's schedule is reasonably consistent year to year, it it quite likely that CASRA GT events can be scheduled so as not to conflict with the MORF races that potential GT boats might want to attend. MORF does also have some series events (Lady Skipper, Performance, Competition) that are, I think, more serious, and so potential GT fleet entrants may shy away from them, and could use an alternative (CASRA) event.

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CASRA and the new LMSRF Area 3 Racing Growth Committee (RGC) are separate efforts. The RGC outlined step by step what will be done to grow racing, using proven tested model used in Area 2 and Area 5. The RGC also has moved to YachtScoring for its race management needs. MORF is not included in CASRA. The Gran Prix and Grand Touring fleets are the RGC plan.

 

The step by step process to grow racing has not been identified by CASRA.

 

At the end of the season after new to racing is hooked, they will have to join a yacht club. Again, sales and marketing are used, a slip sheet will be created listing the clubs, their fees, and their amenities. Yacht clubs are the backbone of sailboat racing, it is their investment in race committee boats, marks, and most importantly the people to organize it and run the races. The idea that wind is free and sailboat racing should be free too, just doesn't work out on paper.

 

One brick and mortar club in Chicago is $300 initiation, $650 annual dues.

Another brick and mortar club in Chicago is $400 initiation, $560 annual dues.

MORF is a yacht club (there are 1,800 yacht clubs in the U.S. 1/2 own land and buildings, the other 1/2 are "paper clubs"). They meet, they run their own "club races" and host an open regatta annually - the MORF Open. First year members are $75, thereafter $190.

 

The slip sheets will also explain what amenities come along with the price, and obviously there are differences from one to the next which warrants the prices.

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"CASRA and the new LMSRF Area 3 Racing Growth Committee (RGC) are separate efforts" <<<<<<<<<<<------------------------ THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS. THIS IS THE ISSUE!!!

 

Too many divorcees, retirees with free time creating clubs and organizations that split fleets.

 

Let's pick ONE and go race........... CASRA clearly wins: great website, Town Hall scheduled for skippers and crew at Columbia YC on Dec 10.

 

All other groups please stand down and get out of the way. Just show up on the race course and stop trying to making your "mark" on Chicago sailing by creating "alternate events".

 

Just because you didn't make the cut for the CASRA board, doesn't mean it helps the great good to create an alternative and steel a couple buddies away to show up on your start line.

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"CASRA and the new LMSRF Area 3 Racing Growth Committee (RGC) are separate efforts" <<<<<<<<<<<------------------------ THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS. THIS IS THE ISSUE!!!

 

Too many divorcees, retirees with free time creating clubs and organizations that split fleets.

 

Let's pick ONE and go race........... CASRA clearly wins: great website, Town Hall scheduled for skippers and crew at Columbia YC on Dec 10.

 

All other groups please stand down and get out of the way. Just show up on the race course and stop trying to making your "mark" on Chicago sailing by creating "alternate events".

 

Just because you didn't make the cut for the CASRA board, doesn't mean it helps the great good to create an alternative and steel a couple buddies away to show up on your start line.

+1

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CASRA and the new LMSRF Area 3 Racing Growth Committee (RGC) are separate efforts. The RGC outlined step by step what will be done to grow racing, using proven tested model used in Area 2 and Area 5. The RGC also has moved to YachtScoring for its race management needs. MORF is not included in CASRA. The Gran Prix and Grand Touring fleets are the RGC plan.

 

The step by step process to grow racing has not been identified by CASRA.

 

At the end of the season after new to racing is hooked, they will have to join a yacht club. Again, sales and marketing are used, a slip sheet will be created listing the clubs, their fees, and their amenities. Yacht clubs are the backbone of sailboat racing, it is their investment in race committee boats, marks, and most importantly the people to organize it and run the races. The idea that wind is free and sailboat racing should be free too, just doesn't work out on paper.

 

One brick and mortar club in Chicago is $300 initiation, $650 annual dues.

Another brick and mortar club in Chicago is $400 initiation, $560 annual dues.

MORF is a yacht club (there are 1,800 yacht clubs in the U.S. 1/2 own land and buildings, the other 1/2 are "paper clubs"). They meet, they run their own "club races" and host an open regatta annually - the MORF Open. First year members are $75, thereafter $190.

 

The slip sheets will also explain what amenities come along with the price, and obviously there are differences from one to the next which warrants the prices.

CASRA is

  • Chicago Yacht Club
  • Columbia Yacht Club
  • Jackson Park Yacht Club
  • Chicago Corinthian Yacht Club
  • Burnham Park Yacht Club

and presumably they won't be part of Area III anymore, or at least their races won't appear on any Area III schedule ?

 

Which leaves Area III with?

  • Anchorage Yacht Club
  • Belmont Yacht Club
  • Harbor Country Yacht Club
  • Illinois Valley Yacht and Canoe Club
  • Island Bay Yacht Club
  • Lake Bluff Yacht Club
  • Michigan City Yacht Club
  • Midwest Open Racing Fleet
  • New Buffalo Yacht Club
  • North Shore Yacht Club
  • North Point Sail Racing Association
  • St. Joseph River Yacht Club
  • Waukegan Yacht Club

It's a new era for Chicago sail racing to put it mildly (and diplomatically)?

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

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You have heard of MORF, right?

 

 

 

I don't know if this is still the case (CG, fill us in), but MORF used to have a lower limit on ratings. So someone with a 36+ foot reasonably nimble cruiser/racer could not actually participate in MORF events (e.g., Bene 36.7, J-105, Bene 42.7). A3 was the only option. If that is still the case, then you can see how there needs to be an outlet for the 6kSB (think of cruiser/racers 36', 40', etc.) to learn to race in a less stressful environment.

 

 

I didn't remember the J/27... what a nice boat!

 

Yes, MORF has a lower limit on ratings, but it's rather fungible these days. It's been going lower over time as most racing boats keep getting faster and faster. I think the fastest active boat rates around 60 something.

 

btw, in case you didn't know, your old Red Sh**t skipper is no longer with us.

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

I disagree. Many, even on this very thread, have cited smaller fleets on race day as a reason to not show up. If the fleet is being split, that is bad racing which makes people not want to show up. The thrill of big fleets is a big draw. Apparently our psyche is so fragile that we need to think we are doing something cool, not just enjoy it for its own sake. But that's fine - we can eliminate that variable/argument easily.

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

+1

 

 

 

Don't you have a ride for the DAGO Hot Rumz you should be on

 

92 was the temp for the 1st of 3 races

 

:):):):)B)

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

I disagree. Many, even on this very thread, have cited smaller fleets on race day as a reason to not show up. If the fleet is being split, that is bad racing which makes people not want to show up. The thrill of big fleets is a big draw. Apparently our psyche is so fragile that we need to think we are doing something cool, not just enjoy it for its own sake. But that's fine - we can eliminate that variable/argument easily.

 

 

But the split off of the 5 clubs to form CASRA will have no effect on this - of the remaining clubs in the list (Anchorage... Waukegan), only 3 clubs actually have boats that participated in Chicago racing - MCYC, St. Joe, and Waukegan. And then only for P-P or Regattas (Colors, NOOD, Verve). Their exclusion will have no impact upon schedule or participation.

 

More troubling to me is the fact that there are two entities, CASRA and now RGC, that are going to try and "fix" things? I admit to being confused in thinking that CASRA had come up with the Gran Prix/Gran Touring experiments - that's the impression I got from reading Deidre Martin's (rather rambling poorly organized) letter. But now it sounds like CASRA is "just" A3 Steering Committee Mk2, with similar goals/agenda, but (mostly) new players. And the RGC is a separate group whose main purpose is to establish and manage this GP/GT option. I don't see why they should be separate entities - why cant the RGC be a sub-committee or adjunct of CASRA? That would make sense to me. As for CASRA itself - OK, I can see people wanting to "re-create" the A3 SC, but since CASRA will be part of LMSRF anyway, I'm not sure what is really changing other than the names/faces. Maybe A3SC had to die and be replaced by CASRA in order to get new faces involved, if there was too much intransigence in the existing A3SC - don't know. If that were the case I can see having to create a new organization. But I still don't understand why RGC and CASRA are not part of the same entity.

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You have heard of MORF, right?

 

 

 

I don't know if this is still the case (CG, fill us in), but MORF used to have a lower limit on ratings. So someone with a 36+ foot reasonably nimble cruiser/racer could not actually participate in MORF events (e.g., Bene 36.7, J-105, Bene 42.7). A3 was the only option. If that is still the case, then you can see how there needs to be an outlet for the 6kSB (think of cruiser/racers 36', 40', etc.) to learn to race in a less stressful environment.

 

 

I didn't remember the J/27... what a nice boat!

 

It was a great little boat. Didn't sail it enough to make it worthwhile keeping - still was doing the full A3 (and then some) schedule at the time on QW, Sold it after 2 seasons (spent half of the second one on the hard too...). Often wish I still had it!

 

Yes, MORF has a lower limit on ratings, but it's rather fungible these days. It's been going lower over time as most racing boats keep getting faster and faster. I think the fastest active boat rates around 60 something.

 

btw, in case you didn't know, your old Red Sh**t skipper is no longer with us.

 

Yeah I heard some time ago. Normy was an interesting smart guy, but got burned out of the IOR scene after not too long (as many owners did back in the 80's). He gave a number us a great opportunity to play on some fun boats.

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

I disagree. Many, even on this very thread, have cited smaller fleets on race day as a reason to not show up. If the fleet is being split, that is bad racing which makes people not want to show up. The thrill of big fleets is a big draw. Apparently our psyche is so fragile that we need to think we are doing something cool, not just enjoy it for its own sake. But that's fine - we can eliminate that variable/argument easily.

 

 

But the split off of the 5 clubs to form CASRA will have no effect on this - of the remaining clubs in the list (Anchorage... Waukegan), only 3 clubs actually have boats that participated in Chicago racing - MCYC, St. Joe, and Waukegan. And then only for P-P or Regattas (Colors, NOOD, Verve). Their exclusion will have no impact upon schedule or participation.

 

More troubling to me is the fact that there are two entities, CASRA and now RGC, that are going to try and "fix" things? I admit to being confused in thinking that CASRA had come up with the Gran Prix/Gran Touring experiments - that's the impression I got from reading Deidre Martin's (rather rambling poorly organized) letter. But now it sounds like CASRA is "just" A3 Steering Committee Mk2, with similar goals/agenda, but (mostly) new players. And the RGC is a separate group whose main purpose is to establish and manage this GP/GT option. I don't see why they should be separate entities - why cant the RGC be a sub-committee or adjunct of CASRA? That would make sense to me. As for CASRA itself - OK, I can see people wanting to "re-create" the A3 SC, but since CASRA will be part of LMSRF anyway, I'm not sure what is really changing other than the names/faces. Maybe A3SC had to die and be replaced by CASRA in order to get new faces involved, if there was too much intransigence in the existing A3SC - don't know. If that were the case I can see having to create a new organization. But I still don't understand why RGC and CASRA are not part of the same entity.

 

 

CASRA is only interested in what the 5 clubs can do and don't prefer to have any outside influence. LMSRF RGC is open to all, we gladly will have CASRA clubs participate now, or at a later date. For the time being, RGC will address the clubs outside of CASRA and their needs to grow their events.

 

There will be meetings between CASRA and RGC to find what synergies exist, these are being worked on now.

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.

Robin

I disagree. Many, even on this very thread, have cited smaller fleets on race day as a reason to not show up. If the fleet is being split, that is bad racing which makes people not want to show up. The thrill of big fleets is a big draw. Apparently our psyche is so fragile that we need to think we are doing something cool, not just enjoy it for its own sake. But that's fine - we can eliminate that variable/argument easily.

 

Like so many things on the internet just because it is said does not make it so. Look at the history and the actual facts. The fleet (MORF is special case with which I will have something to say minute) has been absolutely scheduled with absolutely no conflicts between the clubs major races until very recently when CYC took it on itself to expand its "one design" and club racing out of Belmont to include boats that have in the past been racing in what has come to be called Area III. Lets get some facts out there. When I started racing in Chicago in 1974-75 the local race dates were coordinated among JPYC, BPYC, CYC, ColYC and CCYC through a committee of the Chicago Yachting Association and the ultimate sailing "authority" for Lake Michigan, at that time was LMYA (Lake Michigan Yachting Association). In 1980 LMSRF was formed in rebellion by sailboat racers against the rule of LMYA (I was at the organizational meeting and signed up but was not an insider that took place at CYC's Belmont station) for the explicit purpose of focusing on SAILBOAT RACING on Lake Michigan. One of the decisions made later was the regional structure of LMSRF. Area III then created its own subcommittee with respect to a number of items--one of which was the coordination of race dates and starting areas for all of the YCs of AREA III. The membership of that Committee included all of the Chicago Area Clubs. So, and here is my point, there never has been (at least since 1975) any conflicting race dates among the clubs until the last two years. I previously gave a brief experience in a 4KSB and the fun it was. Let me take the other end of the fleet. In 1986 through, I think 1991, I owned and raced, in partnership with another, a Peterson 43, named Toscana. In various years we raced it in IOR, MHS and PHRF. I have a picture in my home of Toscana the 43 leading IOR Section 1 (we were only physically in the lead because Pied Piper the 70 was not out and we were getting crushed on handicap as Carrera to whom we gave a ton of time was only two lengths behind). The year was 1987, the race was the "8 Mile Bouy Race" and in the picture you can see, Toscana, 3 NM 41s, 2 additional Pet 43s, 2 NM 45s, 2 C&C 43s and two boats I can no longer identify. A 12 boat section 1. That was participation.

 

I do not have the answer, yet, but it is not that there is a lack of coordination. The fact that no one has races on the Verve Cup weekend does not get a single "NEW" boat out or a single new crew.

 

MORF has always been a bit different and it is both a feeder organization and a self sustaining organization. I was a member of MORF when my boat really fit in its sweet spot and when I was still learning to race. Much of its schedule does conflict with other Area III events but frankly does not draw from Area III participation largely because AREA III has made itself unfriendly to MORF Boats. One race in Area III costs one third of what an entire season costs in MORF, MORF starts more inshore (shorter trip) races usually one race per day (more social and club time) smaller boats (smaller crews, more family) etc. However, even MORF has not been able to grow.

 

robin

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Glenn the synergies are clear. Boats on the line. You won't win a tug of war against CASRA considering who it consists of (5 major area clubs with 90% of the race boats in the Chicago area). Work with them, don't create an alternative schedule. Egos and blazers should be left at the door of that meeting. This isn't about who's org is cooler, its about not making me pick which race course I want to sail in on a Saturday morning. One race circle per day please. Less is more.

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CASRA is only interested in what the 5 clubs can do and don't prefer to have any outside influence. LMSRF RGC is open to all, we gladly will have CASRA clubs participate now, or at a later date. For the time being, RGC will address the clubs outside of CASRA and their needs to grow their events.

 

There will be meetings between CASRA and RGC to find what synergies exist, these are being worked on now.

 

 

Glenn, I think it would be helpful if both groups (CASRA and RGC) could publish "Mission Statements" and what we call A2R2 documents - "Authority/Accountability/Roles/Responsibilities" if not now, at least soon whey then are defined, so we have a clearer picture who is doing what. My take on it now is :

 

CASRA - coordinates race schedules/events between the 5 clubs and provides central administration (regis/scoring) of same (not much doff from A3SC and the insufferable "sailyachtracing" web site)

RGC - comes up with ideas to build participation (GP/GT split, maybe proposes different kinds of races, "Golf" handicaps(?),etc.)

 

So far so good... but how do proposals/ideas from the RGC make it into the schedules that CASRA coordinates? Presumably RGC has no "leverage" with CASRA...

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Glenn the synergies are clear. Boats on the line. You won't win a tug of war against CASRA considering who it consists of (5 major area clubs with 90% of the race boats in the Chicago area). Work with them, don't create an alternative schedule. Egos and blazers should be left at the door of that meeting. This isn't about who's org is cooler, its about not making me pick which race course I want to sail in on a Saturday morning. One race circle per day please. Less is more.

Does this help?

post-301-0-07077700-1478906592_thumb.jpg

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I am glad the 5 YC's are finally sitting down and talking about the schedule and working together. I have been hearing from higher ups in more than one club that there was motivation to get cooperation on a higher level and knowing a few people who are behind it I believe they have good intentions and the ability to follow through. Maybe a reboot was just what the Doctor ordered to get things rolling.

 

There is a Town Hall on 12/10 at COLYC, I plan on being there, hope to see all you keyboard CEO's as well!

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Glenn the synergies are clear. Boats on the line. You won't win a tug of war against CASRA considering who it consists of (5 major area clubs with 90% of the race boats in the Chicago area). Work with them, don't create an alternative schedule. Egos and blazers should be left at the door of that meeting. This isn't about who's org is cooler, its about not making me pick which race course I want to sail in on a Saturday morning. One race circle per day please. Less is more.

Does this help?

 

 

Does this mean that RYF is dead?

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"CASRA and the new LMSRF Area 3 Racing Growth Committee (RGC) are separate efforts" <<<<<<<<<<<------------------------ THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS. THIS IS THE ISSUE!!!

 

Too many divorcees, retirees with free time creating clubs and organizations that split fleets.

 

Let's pick ONE and go race........... CASRA clearly wins: great website, Town Hall scheduled for skippers and crew at Columbia YC on Dec 10.

 

All other groups please stand down and get out of the way. Just show up on the race course and stop trying to making your "mark" on Chicago sailing by creating "alternate events".

 

Just because you didn't make the cut for the CASRA board, doesn't mean it helps the great good to create an alternative and steel a couple buddies away to show up on your start line.

 

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You have heard of MORF, right?

I don't know if this is still the case (CG, fill us in), but MORF used to have a lower limit on ratings. So someone with a 36+ foot reasonably nimble cruiser/racer could not actually participate in MORF events (e.g., Bene 36.7, J-105, Bene 42.7). A3 was the only option. If that is still the case, then you can see how there needs to be an outlet for the 6kSB (think of cruiser/racers 36', 40', etc.) to learn to race in a less stressful environment.

I didn't remember the J/27... what a nice boat!

 

It was a great little boat. Didn't sail it enough to make it worthwhile keeping - still was doing the full A3 (and then some) schedule at the time on QW, Sold it after 2 seasons (spent half of the second one on the hard too...). Often wish I still had it!

 

Yes, MORF has a lower limit on ratings, but it's rather fungible these days. It's been going lower over time as most racing boats keep getting faster and faster. I think the fastest active boat rates around 60 something.

 

btw, in case you didn't know, your old Red Sh**t skipper is no longer with us.

 

Yeah I heard some time ago. Normy was an interesting smart guy, but got burned out of the IOR scene after not too long (as many owners did back in the 80's). He gave a number us a great opportunity to play on some fun boats.

If this is true, then they too have been pulling from the fleet. Any sub fleet that divides sailing in an area is helping kill attendance by running competing events ( i.e. Port of prhf, Morf open etc) on top of other events. With overall participation numbers down the sailing community should be sticking together not splitting. This hasn't happened with LMSRF (sorry Mr Mcarthy) or with a3 to the best of my recollection. The one thing a3 was tasked to do- administer a schedule for all of sailing, they've failed to do. I hear meetings are highly tribal, torrently long and full of animosity (by some). The end result- dysfunction and a crappy program for scheduling (the don site) and registering= frustration and low turnout. Maybe LMSRF should focus on grants to help youth sailing as they do that very well and leave it to the clubs to do their thing via casra?

 

Some of the people involved in this new casra have experience putting on events that draw boats (consistently). Examples: Red flannel, colors, three crib, Mack race, nood, verve.

I was back in chi a couple of years ago for the three crib and couldn't believe the number of new sailors (bimininis and smiles) on the course. Why? Because they took risk and tried something different. The coordinators - skyway and karma yachts were both good guys that had their fingers on the pulse of the sailing community. They marketed the poop out of that event , but most importantly it represented a diffrperent product. Our sailing is pretty fragmented in the Bay Area, mostly due to the size of the geography- but majorly because of the groups (some who are hucksters) that have split it up. It has taken leadership like with the running of three bridge fiasco that has offered a new kickstart. Learn from that and don't be afraid of something different. Nuff said.

 

Peace .

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The "schedule" is not the problem and has not been since the "clubs" have coordinated the "schedule" as far back as the Chicago Yachting Association (CYA) days. It is participation. No amount of "scheduling" will get a single NEW boat or crew out to the race course.Robin

I disagree. Many, even on this very thread, have cited smaller fleets on race day as a reason to not show up. If the fleet is being split, that is bad racing which makes people not want to show up. The thrill of big fleets is a big draw. Apparently our psyche is so fragile that we need to think we are doing something cool, not just enjoy it for its own sake. But that's fine - we can eliminate that variable/argument easily.
Like so many things on the internet just because it is said does not make it so. Look at the history and the actual facts. The fleet (MORF is special case with which I will have something to say minute) has been absolutely scheduled with absolutely no conflicts between the clubs major races until very recently when CYC took it on itself to expand its "one design" and club racing out of Belmont to include boats that have in the past been racing in what has come to be called Area III. Lets get some facts out there. When I started racing in Chicago in 1974-75 the local race dates were coordinated among JPYC, BPYC, CYC, ColYC and CCYC through a committee of the Chicago Yachting Association and the ultimate sailing "authority" for Lake Michigan, at that time was LMYA (Lake Michigan Yachting Association). In 1980 LMSRF was formed in rebellion by sailboat racers against the rule of LMYA (I was at the organizational meeting and signed up but was not an insider that took place at CYC's Belmont station) for the explicit purpose of focusing on SAILBOAT RACING on Lake Michigan. One of the decisions made later was the regional structure of LMSRF. Area III then created its own subcommittee with respect to a number of items--one of which was the coordination of race dates and starting areas for all of the YCs of AREA III. The membership of that Committee included all of the Chicago Area Clubs. So, and here is my point, there never has been (at least since 1975) any conflicting race dates among the clubs until the last two years. I previously gave a brief experience in a 4KSB and the fun it was. Let me take the other end of the fleet. In 1986 through, I think 1991, I owned and raced, in partnership with another, a Peterson 43, named Toscana. In various years we raced it in IOR, MHS and PHRF. I have a picture in my home of Toscana the 43 leading IOR Section 1 (we were only physically in the lead because Pied Piper the 70 was not out and we were getting crushed on handicap as Carrera to whom we gave a ton of time was only two lengths behind). The year was 1987, the race was the "8 Mile Bouy Race" and in the picture you can see, Toscana, 3 NM 41s, 2 additional Pet 43s, 2 NM 45s, 2 C&C 43s and two boats I can no longer identify. A 12 boat section 1. That was participation.I do not have the answer, yet, but it is not that there is a lack of coordination. The fact that no one has races on the Verve Cup weekend does not get a single "NEW" boat out or a single new crew.MORF has always been a bit different and it is both a feeder organization and a self sustaining organization. I was a member of MORF when my boat really fit in its sweet spot and when I was still learning to race. Much of its schedule does conflict with other Area III events but frankly does not draw from Area III participation largely because AREA III has made itself unfriendly to MORF Boats. One race in Area III costs one third of what an entire season costs in MORF, MORF starts more inshore (shorter trip) races usually one race per day (more social and club time) smaller boats (smaller crews, more family) etc. However, even MORF has not been able to grow.robin
Thanks for sharing. This is one of the problems we see in the bay, passionate sailors that speak up and two sentences into the conversation they go with "back when I was sailing scows" or "back when I started sailing in 197--". That's part of the problem.

 

Sailing is dramatically different today than 197--- , American way of life is dramatically different today. The least of which is two income households, less time and less resources. The sport has failed to adapt quick enough and is starting to go the way of golf. As this week has shown us ( sorry to go there) sometimes you have to go in a different direction to have a shot at different results. It's just like sailing a beat and following the fleet and taking 5th or taking a flyer to the windward mark , catching a fresh shift and rounding in 1st or 2nd. (Sorry for the soggy analogy).

 

I do like the 8 mile buoy idea. Maybe casra can do that?

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12345.... hit the nail on the head there with booth at St Fests. There is a lot of opportunity to tap into a young crowd with disposable income.

 

Who has been to the Pink Pony party at Belmont in recent years? It's def a more diverse scene rather than Mount Gay hat wearing crowd. Guess what? It's also more fun and not 95% sausage fest. Whatever the secret sauce / getting the word out activity is going on there should be duplicated. I heard it had something to do with the powerboat scene at the Boat Show but not certain...

As I understand it, the uptick in fun at the Pink Pony party coincides with the CYC Associates Committee taking it over.

 

This might have been answered, as I didn't keep reading all the way through the thread, but when the Associates Committee took over the Pink Pony party at CYC we opened it up and invited members of other city clubs outside of yacht clubs (because they all should know about it) that we have relationships with, think Union League and I think the Chicago Athletic Club. Both those clubs have a great associate level membership base, that is certainly interested in sailing. At CYC we do a couple different events with them including a Club Crawl and a Women's networking event.

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Typically how many races are PHRF vs ORR in Chicago now-a-days?

Someone correct me, but aren't ALL Chicago Yacht Club run races ONLY scored in ORR? (Handicap racing)

 

There is a PHRF section in the NOOD... I believe Sailing World requires that? Dunno about the Verve LD race?

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Typically how many races are PHRF vs ORR in Chicago now-a-days?

Someone correct me, but aren't ALL Chicago Yacht Club run races ONLY scored in ORR? (Handicap racing)

 

 

Verve was all ORR, but NOOD and Sheldon Clark had PHRF sections.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just noticed the CARSA town hall is 10am-12pm on Saturday the 10th...

Has it always been a morning event? For some reason I had it as a Saturday evening thing.

CASRA just formed, so this is their first "event." This town hall is to "share results of their survey and, seek input for the 2017 racing season" from "all sailors & racers." This probably isn't a regular meeting.

 

Not sure who you might be thinking about with Sat evening meetings.

 

 

The newest innovation to grow sail yacht racing in Chicago, the Chicago Area Sail Yacht Racing Association (CASRA), invites all sailors & racers to a town hall meeting, on December 10, 2016 at Columbia Yacht Club.

CASRA seeks your input, as a boat owner and/or crew, on ways to grow and improve racing on the greater Chicago area waterfront. All fleets are welcomed. We plan to share results of our survey and, most importantly, seek your input for the 2017 racing season.

 

Please come on down to Columbia Yacht Club and join the discussion. We want your input. This is about your 2017 racing season.

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Just noticed the CARSA town hall is 10am-12pm on Saturday the 10th...

Has it always been a morning event? For some reason I had it as a Saturday evening thing.

CASRA just formed, this is their first "event," actually a town hall to "seek input for the 2017 racing season." Though there will undoubtedly be CASRA leadership meetings, this town hall is a general meeting reaching out to "all sailors & racers."

 

Not sure who you might be thinking about with Sat evening meetings.

 

 

The newest innovation to grow sail yacht racing in Chicago, the Chicago Area Sail Yacht Racing Association (CASRA), invites all sailors & racers to a town hall meeting, on December 10, 2016 at Columbia Yacht Club.

CASRA seeks your input, as a boat owner and/or crew, on ways to grow and improve racing on the greater Chicago area waterfront. All fleets are welcomed. We plan to share results of our survey and, most importantly, seek your input for the 2017 racing season.

 

Please come on down to Columbia Yacht Club and join the discussion. We want your input. This is about your 2017 racing season.

 

 

I think the evening confusion was reasonable:

 

Sailors drink.

Drinking is done in the evening.

Sailors drink when in a meeting (explains a lot of A3!)

Sailor's meetings take place in the evening.

 

QED.

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Yeah, I also sort of assumed it would be an evening thing. Not sure you are going to get that great of a turnout if people have to drag their asses out of bed and down to COLYC on a cold Saturday morning.

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Just noticed the CARSA town hall is 10am-12pm on Saturday the 10th...

Has it always been a morning event? For some reason I had it as a Saturday evening thing.

CASRA just formed, this is their first "event," actually a town hall to "seek input for the 2017 racing season." Though there will undoubtedly be CASRA leadership meetings, this town hall is a general meeting reaching out to "all sailors & racers."

 

Not sure who you might be thinking about with Sat evening meetings.

 

 

The newest innovation to grow sail yacht racing in Chicago, the Chicago Area Sail Yacht Racing Association (CASRA), invites all sailors & racers to a town hall meeting, on December 10, 2016 at Columbia Yacht Club.

CASRA seeks your input, as a boat owner and/or crew, on ways to grow and improve racing on the greater Chicago area waterfront. All fleets are welcomed. We plan to share results of our survey and, most importantly, seek your input for the 2017 racing season.

 

Please come on down to Columbia Yacht Club and join the discussion. We want your input. This is about your 2017 racing season.

 

 

I think the evening confusion was reasonable:

 

Sailors drink.

Drinking is done in the evening.

Sailors drink when in a meeting (explains a lot of A3!)

Sailor's meetings take place in the evening.

 

QED.

 

 

You can't "Drink All Day Long," if you don't start first thing in the morning.

 

Beer, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

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  • 2 weeks later...

With this dire prediction for snow this weekend, maybe I'm a dreamer, probably more of a cheap ass, but was thinking what is the smallest/cheapest boat you'd do a race to Mackinac? I know there is a minimum LOA, and this is a several day exercise, but not all boats are created equal for living with 5 of your closest friends for the time. Old IOR half tonner, something a little newer/faster/bigger?

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With this dire prediction for snow this weekend, maybe I'm a dreamer, probably more of a cheap ass, but was thinking what is the smallest/cheapest boat you'd do a race to Mackinac? I know there is a minimum LOA, and this is a several day exercise, but not all boats are created equal for living with 5 of your closest friends for the time. Old IOR half tonner, something a little newer/faster/bigger?

Just look at the recent years highest sections (9 or 10) scratch sheets, that would give you a good idea. For example...

post-301-0-90772800-1481371439_thumb.png

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I went to the CASRA meeting yesterday. Solid turnout of about 40 people in attendance, a mix of owners and crew. I'd say the crowd was skewed towards OD sailors at around 60/40 margin. The meeting was ran by Mike Hettel who is the CASRA commodore with help from CYC Commodore Greg Miarecki. All of the CASRA clubs had their representative in attendance. We went through the survey results of which there were 170 or so. Some highlights from the survey included a dislike of the current A3 site (shocker) and a preference on the non OD side towards distance racing. Other findings included requests for a better balance schedule with the course and distance races more equally spread through the calendar.

We had some Q and A, with a few people voicing their concerns over the lack of a voice for the OD fleets and MORF, Michigan City, and St Joe, etc. On the board. Rick Strilky did his best old man yells at clouds impression. Overall most comments were a mix of people worried about having a proper voice. RYF's were brought up and Greg stated they will continue to be run. The suggestion is the OD fleets create an internal schedule for what they plan to do to keep from splitting the fleet.

The draft race schedule was presented. Highlights include some slight movement of racing and scrapping of the Mayor Daley for lack of attendance. We were short on printed copies so I didn't grab one to take home but I am sure someone else grabbed a copy. There will be a new race week created verve offshore week with junior racing and a super Beercan bookended by the Verve and a new Columbia Cup regatta. There are 3 casual races added to the schedule for new racers to help bring them up to speed. Details were still being hashed out for the events so mostly TBD.

Comments afterwards from my quick poll of the group ranged from those wondering why the race schedule is a bit more sparse (feels like the course races are a bit lower), to one sailor who is running his own races to those who were cautiously optimistic.

My overall view is this is a step in the right direction. No you cannot make every sailor happy all the time but they are taking a closer look at what sailors want and what needs to be done to foster growth. The survey and townhall sound like they will be yearly occurrences as an avenue to voice suggestions and concerns. This is going to be a work in progress. People don't like change so it will take some getting used to.

My biggest takeaway and hopefully the part we all grasp is we finally have an organization that is listening. They have an open email ([email protected]) for comment. Please send your suggestions and we will see as a group how CASRA responds and make the judgement based in the races this summer.

Andy Camarda
Q sails Chicago

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I was there too. Probably around 100 - 120 in attendance. Guessing 80% owner / 20% crew based on the faces in the crowd.

Overall my impression was that it was a good meeting and the right direction. It was great to see all of the Commodores there and

talking with once voice.

 

There was some dissention and show boating from both sides of the argument but ultimately I think CASRA is trying to do the right thing and maximize turn out.

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

 

Robin, my understanding from what Glen posted earlier was that CASRA was not really focusing on the growth aspect - that was to be the role of this RGC of LMSRF (I was initially confused and thought they were the same entity). The RGC is the one that came up with the Grand Prix/Gran Touring idea. I asked earlier about what the mission statements were for the two organizations, how they would interact, etc but no answer so far (in fairness, it's probably not that well understood yet/still evolving).

 

What I think the roles are, very simply put :

 

CASRA - provide the existing racers with a better product (scheduling/registration/event type/scoring/consolidate resources)

RGC - get more of the non-racers out racing

 

 

Also, as an old-fart-in-training, agree that it's not a bad thing to wish we had the level of participation we did in the 70's/80's/90's - but I think we can all agree we need a new methodology for getting there.

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

 

Robin, my understanding from what Glen posted earlier was that CASRA was not really focusing on the growth aspect - that was to be the role of this RGC of LMSRF (I was initially confused and thought they were the same entity). The RGC is the one that came up with the Grand Prix/Gran Touring idea. I asked earlier about what the mission statements were for the two organizations, how they would interact, etc but no answer so far (in fairness, it's probably not that well understood yet/still evolving).

 

What I think the roles are, very simply put :

 

CASRA - provide the existing racers with a better product (scheduling/registration/event type/scoring/consolidate resources)

RGC - get more of the non-racers out racing

 

 

Also, as an old-fart-in-training, agree that it's not a bad thing to wish we had the level of participation we did in the 70's/80's/90's - but I think we can all agree we need a new methodology for getting there.

 

LMSRF RGC and CASRA had one short meeting. As CASRA is a concept under development, they couldn't offer much what they were doing, or what their plans were. We heard Saturday that they were only sharing a part of what is under consideration in the town hall meeting. Surveying the existing customers to learn what they want and satisfying those cravings is a great start.

 

LMSRF RGC is helping those clubs who wish to participate in RGC bring all of those non-raced boats out of the harbors Robin mentioned and get them to taste racing. CASRA doesn't appear to have interest in the BOTY, and other such things, and RGC will fill in those pieces.

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

 

 

Robin, I agree that the emphasis needs to be put on getting people who don't race to start showing up. Talking to existing racers is preaching to the choir and will do little to encourage attendance. I have seen that many people are intimidated by racers and feel that they are not good enough sailors to try racing. On the other hand, many cruisers are much more capable than some racers. We need to bridge the gap in some way to get these people to start showing up.

 

One problem that might address this is the sailing schools. I know that on the coasts, schools like J-World actively promote racing. It seems that that is not done as much around here. Partnership with some of the learn to sail programs would be very helpful in promoting the competitive side of the sport.

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

We all want participation levels from the 80's and 90's. 40+ T10's on a start line was the norm for NA's and NOOD's when I was a teenager. We would be crazy to not want that. What I am tired of is this idea that we keep trying what worked back then and we will have the numbers again. The boats gave changed, the economics have changed, and the demographics have changed. We have tried to send old tactics since the bottom fell out in the 00's and they haven't worked. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Let's try something new and hope it works we can only go up from here.

 

Growing sailing is the responsibility of all sailors. I plan to volunteer in any way I can to get the intro to racing crowd on the water. I hoped every one else plans to put their support behind the growth initiatives instead of hoping sailors will magically create themselves. I have seen a number of promising trends among gen xers and millenials that we can grow on, but it ain't going to fix itself.

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LMSRF RGC and CASRA had one short meeting. As CASRA is a concept under development, they couldn't offer much what they were doing, or what their plans were. We heard Saturday that they were only sharing a part of what is under consideration in the town hall meeting. Surveying the existing customers to learn what they want and satisfying those cravings is a great start.

 

 

LMSRF RGC is helping those clubs who wish to participate in RGC bring all of those non-raced boats out of the harbors Robin mentioned and get them to taste racing. CASRA doesn't appear to have interest in the BOTY, and other such things, and RGC will fill in those pieces.

 

It seems to me that LMSRF - RGC is just a way to keep LMSRF in the mix in Chicago, I wonder if it would have even been created if CASRA wasn't a thing. It looks to me that RGC was just a reaction to CASRA and not a initiative that would have come anyway. RGC is too little, too late from LMSRF. Since I'm are on the too little too late thought, why is it that only Area III LMSRF members have to pay dues for LMSRF? Is that fair? Or were we just the biggest pool of members and they were looking for a payday. Except for BOTY prizes, what will LMSRF provide to Chicago racers going forward? We won't need to be a member of LMSRF to race the entire CASRA schedule and we saw at the townhall meeting, not many racers are concerned with the BOTY awards. If CASRA will standardize the NOR/SIs, do the schedule and organize a website for entry/scoring, this is now the death knell for LMSRF in the Chicagoland area.

 

CASRA has been meeting for more than a year, they most certainly have plans for what they are doing, maybe they just didn't want to share them with a committee that has only been up and running for 2 months, that most of feel will be less useful than the last LMSRF Area III committee was.

 

I'll say it again, chicago BOAT OWNERS NO LONGER NEED TO PAY AREA III DUES.

 

GOOD BYE LMSRF, HELLO CASRA.

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I am not an apologist for LMSRF although I have been a member since its first organizational meeting at the Belmont station of CYC. However, there are a lot of things both administrative and substance that CASRA is not going to do that some organization needs to do. I am going to list a few off the top of my head but I am certain the list is much longer: Hear appeals from protest committees; Provide scholarships; organize ladder events for qualifying to race in other national events, select area K representatives to various US Sailing Committees; select area K representatives to sail in national events, there are a lot more. Does LMSRF have to do these things---No, but by definition CASRA as an association of five Chicago area YCs cannot do them.

Robin

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I am not an apologist for LMSRF although I have been a member since its first organizational meeting at the Belmont station of CYC. However, there are a lot of things both administrative and substance that CASRA is not going to do that some organization needs to do. I am going to list a few off the top of my head but I am certain the list is much longer: Hear appeals from protest committees; Provide scholarships; organize ladder events for qualifying to race in other national events, select area K representatives to various US Sailing Committees; select area K representatives to sail in national events, there are a lot more. Does LMSRF have to do these things---No, but by definition CASRA as an association of five Chicago area YCs cannot do them.

Robin

 

As far as I can tell, what CASRA and RGC are trying to replace is the Area III steering committee of LMSRF, not the entire entity. I presume LMSRF will continue to have the appeals committee for all of Lake Michigan, provide scholarships and grants, organize youth events. I believe it's LMSRF that holds a qualifier for Richardson's Cup. How Area K reps are selected for US sailing events or committees, I haven't a clue. Area K is quite a bit larger than Lake Michigan.

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I am not an apologist for LMSRF although I have been a member since its first organizational meeting at the Belmont station of CYC. However, there are a lot of things both administrative and substance that CASRA is not going to do that some organization needs to do. I am going to list a few off the top of my head but I am certain the list is much longer: Hear appeals from protest committees; Provide scholarships; organize ladder events for qualifying to race in other national events, select area K representatives to various US Sailing Committees; select area K representatives to sail in national events, there are a lot more. Does LMSRF have to do these things---No, but by definition CASRA as an association of five Chicago area YCs cannot do them.

Robin

 

As far as I can tell, what CASRA and RGC are trying to replace is the Area III steering committee of LMSRF, not the entire entity. I presume LMSRF will continue to have the appeals committee for all of Lake Michigan, provide scholarships and grants, organize youth events. I believe it's LMSRF that holds a qualifier for Richardson's Cup. How Area K reps are selected for US sailing events or committees, I haven't a clue. Area K is quite a bit larger than Lake Michigan.

 

ChiGuy is correct.

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I was there too. Probably around 100 - 120 in attendance. Guessing 80% owner / 20% crew based on the faces in the crowd.

Overall my impression was that it was a good meeting and the right direction. It was great to see all of the Commodores there and

talking with once voice.

 

There was some dissention and show boating from both sides of the argument but ultimately I think CASRA is trying to do the right thing and maximize turn out.

Good feedback. You're making me miss my old haunt- Chicago, except when I saw the weather report!!! :blink:

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I too was there and I have a slightly different take even though I believe the reporting above is a reasonable representation of the events. If CASRA is primarily intended to improve attendance at races and to grow the sport they are not focused on making that happen. The survey, while helpful, was taken of people like me, dedicated racing sailors. What we need is to understand why it is that the owners of the hundred of sailboats in Chicago that do not race and never have raced, do not try our sport. We have all kinds of opinion based ideas: cant get crew, too expensive, too complicated, do not know the rules, my boat is not equipped, my boat is not fast enough, racers make me unwelcome etc. We have not real data and without real data you cannot attack the problem. If CASRA is really going to succeed it needs to devote itself to developing that data and then assisting in creating a program that will break down those barriers.

 

By the way as a member of the "old guys" club I resent the concept that wishing that we had the competition that we once did translates into not changing for the future. Clearly there is something wrong with what we are doing today but the answer is not organizing around yacht clubs or even around current racers but rather in our target market which is owners of sailboats that do not race.

 

My .02

Robin

Do you own a boat ? Didn't you sell yours? It seems like every comment you make is about the way it 'used to be'. With all respect, things have changed- alot.