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Eight years ago today we lost Spike Perry. The SLIVER project was started just about that time. The project was then dedicated to the memory of Spike. The Spike Burgee will fly on FRANC

I think Legs has it right. I check SA and CA everyday. If I think I have something to add to the discussion I'll post it. With over 6,600 fan club members on Facebook now that keeps me prett

Took FRANKIE over to Shilshole today and turned her over to Green Card for some love and attention. I towed my Hadlock 23 Skiff behind so I had a way to get back home. It was strange watchin

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

i hope that the newly-powered winches got some use this year, despite the pandemic.

Nope, I have been completely isolated and consumed with Cancer treatments this year and only visit FRANCIS on her mooring every week or so to run the engine and her diesel furnace.

I am now finally finished with Chemo and Radiation and starting Hormone Therapy.

I will need to regain my energy and leave some of the side effects behind before I can take FRANCIS out single handed. Given my situation I can not have crew aboard during these times.

Hopefully I will get her out in the next couple months. I really miss sailing.

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10 minutes ago, Anomaly2 said:

Ouch! Kick a guy while he's down...

I didn’t realize you were going public Covie.

Glad you are recovering, life would be so boring without you.

Wish we were located closer so we could take FRANCIS out for a sail together.

Maybe next summer??

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28 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

Maybe next summer??

We can only hope Toasty

Wait a sec, I'm going to edit this to add something:

Fuck— the guy whose skin is falling off, has a scar that would frighten a hardened criminal, and has consumed copious amounts of “therapeutic” poisons for months says “at least it’s not Covid” and I’m supposed to stay silent? Or just step in front of a speeding bus... "At least it’s not Covid"— I’m going to remember this! (if I live)

Edited by Anomaly2
getting even
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2 hours ago, Anomaly2 said:

We can only hope Toasty

Wait a sec, I'm going to edit this to add something:

Fuck— the guy whose skin is falling off, has a scar that would frighten a hardened criminal, and has consumed copious amounts of “therapeutic” poisons for months says “at least it’s not Covid” and I’m supposed to stay silent? Or just step in front of a speeding bus... "At least it’s not Covid"— I’m going to remember this! (if I live)

Don’t panic anyone, Anomaly2 and I are just roasting each other as we often do in our private communications. In reality we are pals, brought together by Cruising Anarchy. (At least I think we are pals....)

However SWMBO was quick to take his side as he is correct about the insane treatments (and side effects) I have been experiencing these last ten months or so. I was diagnosed in late January and just finished the radiation in late Nov.

But I will say, I kind of like my scar. Bob Perry and I have decided to call it the Stigmata of Robert the Bruś (an English Sword Slash left over from the 1314 Battle of Bannockburn.)

(Isolation gives a guy way too much idle time to dream shit up. At least that’s what our son Derek thinks.)

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1 hour ago, kimbottles said:

Don’t panic anyone, Anomaly2 and I are just roasting each other as we often do in our private communications. In reality we are pals, brought together by Cruising Anarchy. (At least I think we are pals....)

However SWMBO was quick to take his side as he is correct about the insane treatments (and side effects) I have been experiencing these last ten months or so. I was diagnosed in late January and just finished the radiation in late Nov.

But I will say, I kind of like my scar. Bob Perry and I have decided to call it the Stigmata of Robert the Bruś (an English Sword Slash left over from the 1314 Battle of Bannockburn.)

(Isolation gives a guy way too much idle time to dream shit up. At least that’s what our son Derek thinks.)

You know the rules, Kim. Pics or it didn't happen. ;)

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I think we just all trying to make sure, in those quiet times when we're talking to the big guy upstairs, that we are putting in the right words and thoughts for you...and for all the other folks here on SA for whom such words might help in some small way...

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13 minutes ago, Crash said:

I think we just all trying to make sure, in those quiet times when we're talking to the big guy upstairs, that we are putting in the right words and thoughts for you...and for all the other folks here on SA for whom such words might help in some small way...

Thank you, I appreciate that kind gesture.

Hopefully I will be able to post a picture of FRANKIE sailing sometime in early 2021.

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1 hour ago, kimbottles said:

You really want to pollute the SLIVER/FRANKIE thread with gruesome pictures of my surgery/chemo/radiation side effects?

Just giving you a bit of a hard time, Kim.

I lost two good friends to cancer last week and I'm very pleased to hear that you're on the mend. Stay safe, get through your treatment, get that vaccine, and I hope we can rendezvous this summer.

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1 minute ago, IStream said:

Just giving you a bit of a hard time, Kim.

I lost two good friends to cancer last week and I'm very pleased to hear that you're on the mend. Stay safe, get through your treatment, get that vaccine, and I hope we can rendezvous this summer.

I would very much like to have you back in Blakely Harbor in 2021. (I might even show you the pictures privately.)

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I don't need to see the pictures but I will definitely look forward to seeing you in Blakely Harbor. I can't speak for the teens, but I will probably still be able to talk my little one into coming. She's not *quite* gone over to the dark side of teendom yet...

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  • 1 month later...

Took FRANKIE over to Shilshole today and turned her over to Green Card for some love and attention.

I towed my Hadlock 23 Skiff behind so I had a way to get back home.

It was strange watching no wake off of FRANKIE and plenty of wake off the skiff.

2009ACE7-A9E7-470E-8285-2D880DC67EC4.jpeg

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1 hour ago, kimbottles said:

It was strange watching no wake off of FRANKIE and plenty of wake off the skiff.

Nothing moves in the water like a slippery, skinny sailboat, except a fish.

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2 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Thank you for asking, but the road back appears to be quite long. 

Hang in there, Kim. You've got lots of people pulling for you and a lot of locals like me who are happy to help with anything you need.

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20 minutes ago, IStream said:

Hang in there, Kim. You've got lots of people pulling for you and a lot of locals like me who are happy to help with anything you need.

Thanks Streamer, I appreciate your comments and look forward to seeing you again in 2021.

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5 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Took FRANKIE over to Shilshole today and turned her over to Green Card for some love and attention.

I towed my Hadlock 23 Skiff behind so I had a way to get back home.

It was strange watching no wake off of FRANKIE and plenty of wake off the skiff.

2009ACE7-A9E7-470E-8285-2D880DC67EC4.jpeg

You'll be happy to know along with getting tied up before you got home, there was time for the guys at the Locks to all come out and say, "that's what a boat is supposed to look like."

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2 minutes ago, Green Card said:

You'll be happy to know along with getting tied up before you got home, there was time for the guys at the Locks to all come out and say, "that's what a boat is supposed to look like."

She is easy on the eyes in my view.

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12 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Thank you for asking, but the road back appears to be quite long. 

I won't pretend to speak for others, but there is a huge worldwide community that wishes only the best for you.  You have brought so much to us, I think all of us would do anything for you.  I hope that thought helps you along the road, even a little bit.  

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2 hours ago, Bugsy said:

I won't pretend to speak for others, but there is a huge worldwide community that wishes only the best for you.  You have brought so much to us, I think all of us would do anything for you.  I hope that thought helps you along the road, even a little bit.  

Thank you, I appreciate the support. The long term looks OK, I expect to recover to sailing later this year. The cancer appears to be under control, the side effects should subside over time.

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14 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

Even Bob and I get confused sometimes. Not a surprise as FRANKIE’s stern was inspired by Laurie Davidson’s Black Magic’s bow......

1240647716_FrankiebowtrimmedX2.png.925770c2ece5cc88f1eff948ccc0d146.pngActually, from your photo above, I can see the bow-ness of the stern better than ever

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7 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

The stern sure works well, even when we start hitting mid double digit speed she doesn’t squat and the wake is very minimal. 

That's part of the genius of the design.  It looks a lot like a bow, but it works very well as a stern

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Actually, from your photo above, I can see the bow-ness of the stern better than ever

So you're saying it's basically a proa in disguise... or is it a gyrocopter? I'm confused...

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5 minutes ago, Airwick said:

So you're saying it's basically a proa in disguise... or is it a gyrocopter? I'm confused...

There's a thought: has anyone ever made a monohull proa?  Symmetrical main hull like a proa, with a shunting rig, but a ballast keel instead of an outrigger.

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13 minutes ago, Airwick said:

 

So you're saying it's basically a proa in disguise... or is it a gyrocopter? I'm confused...

Yeah, she confuses me too, but I love her.

(I am just glad Bob lets me take care of her for him.)

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

There's a thought: has anyone ever made a monohull proa?  Symmetrical main hull like a proa, with a shunting rig, but a ballast keel instead of an outrigger.

FRANKIE is not symmetrical, her stern is fuller than her bow. You can kind of see the slight difference in these two pictures. (Hint, the skiff is facing the same way that FRANKIE is facing.)

Wouldn’t your idea make it hard for mast placement? And which way would you fair the keel per NACA sections?

9E17EB3D-6646-40E7-98B3-071B08B37A5E.jpeg

9ECB1355-13F7-41DE-B73E-E8E23C36E821.jpeg

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7 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

There's a thought: has anyone ever made a monohull proa?  Symmetrical main hull like a proa, with a shunting rig, but a ballast keel instead of an outrigger.

A danish (I think) guy build models like that.

I find it quite intriguing in theory.

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4 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

FRANKIE is not symmetrical, her stern is fuller than her bow. You can kind of see the slight difference in these two pictures. (Hint, the skiff is facing the same way that FRANKIE is facing.)

Wouldn’t your idea make it hard for mast placement? And which way would you fair the keel per NACA sections?

Yes, I know that part of the genius of Frankie is that she looks much more symmetrical than she is ... so she avoids all the pitfalls of genuine symmetry.

I hadn't thought through the notion of what a monoproa would look like.  It was just an off-the-cuff idea.  I can't see any reason to do it, but wondered if anyone had tried it.

I guess that the mast arrangement could be like Jzerro: central, with a headsail at each end, with only the bow sail in use.  Keel would be more problematic.

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2 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Yes, I know that part of the genius of Frankie is that she looks much more symmetrical than she is ... so she avoids all the pitfalls of genuine symmetry.

I hadn't thought through the notion of what a monoproa would look like.  It was just an off-the-cuff idea.  I can't see any reason to do it, but wondered if anyone had tried it.

I guess that the mast arrangement could be like Jzerro: central, with a headsail at each end, with only the bow sail in use.  Keel would be more problematic.

Paging Russell Brown, if anyone could figure it out he could.

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6 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I can't see any reason to do it, but wondered if anyone had tried it. 

In theory it could combine a decent amount of form stability (from a wide leeward side) with a high l/b (while heeled) and self righting. Pays the price of shunting, but that's still a nice combination to have.

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Two comments...

When she's out of the water you can tell front from back by looking at the keel, only a fool would have the bulb lead the fin and Kim isn't a fool.  And secondly, she is symmetrical where it counts, no offset companionway...  :lol:

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16 minutes ago, sculpin said:

When she's out of the water you can tell front from back by looking at the keel, only a fool would have the bulb lead the fin and Kim isn't a fool.

Sadly, a high proportion of new designs do have the bulb leading the fin.  (OK, the torpedo keel trails the fin too, but there is stuff ahead of the fin).  Seems daft to me, but it does mean that a back-to-front keel isn't as wacky as it should be.

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3 hours ago, mathystuff said:

In theory it could combine a decent amount of form stability (from a wide leeward side) with a high l/b (while heeled) and self righting. Pays the price of shunting, but that's still a nice combination to have. 

And by leeward I mean windward.

/facepalm

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

There's a thought: has anyone ever made a monohull proa?  Symmetrical main hull like a proa, with a shunting rig, but a ballast keel instead of an outrigger.

Weatherwax.jpg.97be7c9e2bd08092e4b0d8e7e5875321.jpg

Weatherwax may never sail againMay 10, 2009
https://www.pressrepublican.com/news/local_news/weatherwax-may-never-sail-again/article_c7af6e88-d4f9-5e97-8490-250fb11fadb0.html

Sail_Ferry_sailing.jpg.f80ae29fc86fdb1bf295c4e027072b17.jpg

Sail_Ferry_historic.jpg.94afca33c8880bb19aef45beebfc926b.jpg

Lake Placid/Essex County (New York) Visitor's Bureau - Crown Point, New York
50' Sail Ferry Weatherwax

http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/ferry.html

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16 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Sadly, a high proportion of new designs do have the bulb leading the fin.  (OK, the torpedo keel trails the fin too, but there is stuff ahead of the fin).  Seems daft to me, but it does mean that a back-to-front keel isn't as wacky as it should be.

If downwind stability matters to you, getting the fin as aft as possible makes sense and the bulb has to stay where it is unless you don't mind a fatter ass relative to the bow but .... then you want lot of volume forward to avoid digging in the bow... and it is back to "there is no perfect boat, just good and bad compromises!"

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21 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Thanks for those links, @ProaSailorWeatherwax is a fascinating boat, and it makes a lot of sense to have her shunt instead of tack.

First time I see this also...

One has to admire the no non sense approach to design they had, in a way these are ancestors of ro-ro ferries with a bow door and a stern door except that they had to deal with the added complexity that normal sailing boats don't like going backward so they made it a shunting sailing boat...

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

If downwind stability matters to you, getting the fin as aft as possible makes sense and the bulb has to stay where it is unless you don't mind a fatter ass relative to the bow but .... then you want lot of volume forward to avoid digging in the bow... and it is back to "there is no perfect boat, just good and bad compromises!"

This is why movable appendages are good.  On a Boréal, the downwind config is lift the centreboard and lower the aft board.   Then the CLR is way aft, and she tracks perfectly.

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5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I don’t blame him for avoiding this dump. He doesn’t need the negativity that a few trolls heap on him when he shares anything he’s working on for clients. Top quality man!

Bob is a great guy, and I learnt a lot from his many generously helpful answers to questions I asked of him ...  as well, of course, as his many generous replies to others.

But in the last few years, something changed for Bob in how he approached SA.  He seemed to be pricklier, getting hurt when someone said "not my sort of boat", and seemed to almost seek out people who annoyed him rather than ignoring them or avoiding them.  He got very heavy in the discussion of the Morgans Cloud "Adventure 40" project, and let Brent Swain goad him into a fury.

However, we still have the amazing phenomenon that for over a decade, one of the great yacht designers shared a lot of his time, thoughts, and works-in-progress with this raucous, uncontrolled group of randoms.  That produced some amazing boats, and gave us insight into the development of several others.  I think we should be very grateful for that while it lasted, and not expect it to continue forever

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I think Legs has it right.

I check SA and CA everyday. If I think I have something to add to the discussion I'll post it.

With over 6,600 fan club members on Facebook now that keeps me pretty busy in terms of playing on the internet. It has proven very productive. I have also been doing some virtual lectures to various clubs including the NYYC. That has been fun.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/20/2021 at 11:58 PM, Bob Perry said:

I think Legs has it right.

I check SA and CA everyday. If I think I have something to add to the discussion I'll post it.

With over 6,600 fan club members on Facebook now that keeps me pretty busy in terms of playing on the internet. It has proven very productive. I have also been doing some virtual lectures to various clubs including the NYYC. That has been fun.

Do you need another care package of vegimite yet? I know the last one I left on my last visit isn't near 13 year vintage yet, but you might be out.

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  • 8 months later...
On 1/24/2016 at 8:28 AM, Mr. Ed said:

 

Wow! What do you call that mizzen-staysail-without-a-mizzen? Was she built?

On this 70' boat, the owner constrained the draft to less than 7', hence a longish keel was a possibility (a centerboard or wings could have provided better [at the least] upwind performance.)  A wing with long chord and little span has a center of effort well forward of that of a high aspect ratio wing.  The (heavy) keel cannot simply be moved aft to get the CE back to a usual position, so the CE of the rig with such a keel will be more forward than usual.  To not just the classic eye, this makes for quite an empty space behind the mast.

Nature refusing to move the CE back on the long shallow keel, what could be done to balance the look?

The pilot house, though low, does help to balance the look, but the owner still noted a visual imbalance.  Someone dropped in a Dodge Charger-like cigarette boat wing (yikes) which carries the radar and several antennae.  Still.  The mule helps to visually balance the boat, and provides a relatively low CE sail useful as a steadying sail motoring or no, possibly in lying to, in heavy air paired with a single foresail, off the wind in a broad range of windspeeds, and in light air with lots of sail area.

A magical sail apparently.  And attracting the curious eye.

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6 hours ago, pschwenn said:

On this 70' boat, the owner constrained the draft to less than 7', hence a longish keel was a possibility (a centerboard or wings could have provided better [at the least] upwind performance.)  A wing with long chord and little span has a center of effort well forward of that of a high aspect ratio wing.  The (heavy) keel cannot simply be moved aft to get the CE back to a usual position, so the CE of the rig with such a keel will be more forward than usual.  To not just the classic eye, this makes for quite an empty space behind the mast.

Nature refusing to move the CE back on the long shallow keel, what could be done to balance the look?

The pilot house, though low, does help to balance the look, but the owner still noted a visual imbalance.  Someone dropped in a Dodge Charger-like cigarette boat wing (yikes) which carries the radar and several antennae.  Still.  The mule helps to visually balance the boat, and provides a relatively low CE sail useful as a steadying sail motoring or no, possibly in lying to, in heavy air paired with a single foresail, off the wind in a broad range of windspeeds, and in light air with lots of sail area.

A magical sail apparently.  And attracting the curious eye.

Linguistics?

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The connections are obscure but possibly real.

Language is based on innate human facilities (as song is for birds) whose nature is possibly not reducible to existing physics (as gravity, some phase changes, ... may not be). 

Same with aesthetics, invention and problem solving; all part of boat design and engineering.  So for example, the visual imbalance of the 70 footer's rig may be built in to us, a near innate aesthetic.  I don't refer to adherents of rigid expressible doctrines of what things must look like.

The human approach to resolving design and manipulation conflicts, a foundation of boat design, engineering and construction, may also be an innate (even limiting) human skill.  And the endless creation of novel (e.g. sailboats) devices and configurations another.

Also shared (for me): a scepticism about substituting computing for any of these skills, useful as they may be in some aspects.  E.g. a failure to learn to draw by hand has turned many current industrial designs into soulless copies of each other. 

_________________________________________________________________

Now you know what will out if I'm asked about the connection between evolution and boat design (hint: it has to do with the fallacy of progression to perfection.)

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54 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

Summat like the Golden Ratio, and its real-world manifestation as Fibonacci numbers. Whether our longing for these is endogenous or entrained, we like shit that looks like trees, seashells, human faces, sunflowers.

https://www.mathnasium.com/examples-of-the-golden-ratio-in-nature

 

Jeez, I have to get new glasses. I read that as "human feces". That's too close to real shit.

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16 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Jeez, I have to get new glasses. I read that as "human feces". That's too close to real shit.

There's likely deep patterns in poop, for them as looks. Each turd is 0.618 the size of the preceeding.

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Advocate:

I'm doing fine with my stash of Vegemite. Thanks for asking.

Busy trying to teach my fan club members, some of them anyway, that frac rigs on cruising boats won't kill you. It's a nice break from trying to teach them that spade rudders won't kill you.

vegemite.jpg

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4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Advocate:

I'm doing fine with my stash of Vegemite. Thanks for asking.

Busy trying to teach my fan club members, some of them anyway, that frac rigs on cruising boats won't kill you. It's a nice break from trying to teach them that spade rudders won't kill you.

vegemite.jpg

We are in Southern Queensland preparing to sail to Hobart …

Went for a shakedown sail yesterday, everything worked apart from the main autopilot.

Hopefully thats fixed now. Weather up here is rubbish atm, La Nina giving us hot sticky stormy weather, waiting for northerlies.

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6 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

We are in Southern Queensland preparing to sail to Hobart …

Went for a shakedown sail yesterday, everything worked apart from the main autopilot.

Hopefully thats fixed now. Weather up here is rubbish atm, La Nina giving us hot sticky stormy weather, waiting for northerlies.

Olaf failed to mention he is sailing the Bob Perry Designed Valiant 40 s/n 100 (first one ever built.)

In other words, his boat launched Bob Perry’s career as a yacht designer.

Pretty important boat!

Also means it is HIS BOAT that is in the Cruising Sailboat Hall of Fame.

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Doesn't look that famous at the moment Kim but that will change when she gets home.

She lived up to her lucky boat reputation again last night, we returned to the fix our autopilot and a massive unpredicted tropical storm came through in the night.

We would have been at sea or at anchor if we had pushed on ..

So waiting for the next window and keen to get out of here.

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Busy trying to teach my fan club members, some of them anyway, that frac rigs on cruising boats won't kill you. It's a nice break from trying to teach them that spade rudders won't kill you.

Glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read this.

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10 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Advocate:

I'm doing fine with my stash of Vegemite. Thanks for asking.

Busy trying to teach my fan club members, some of them anyway, that frac rigs on cruising boats won't kill you. It's a nice break from trying to teach them that spade rudders won't kill you.

vegemite.jpg

we are such risk takers, sailors...spade rudder, frac rigs, offset companion ways always pushing the limits, putting our lives on yhe line.  Heroic really.

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On 12/4/2021 at 8:06 AM, Bob Perry said:

Advocate:

I'm doing fine with my stash of Vegemite. Thanks for asking.

Busy trying to teach my fan club members, some of them anyway, that frac rigs on cruising boats won't kill you. It's a nice break from trying to teach them that spade rudders won't kill you.

Does that mean you no longer need to teach them that fin keels won't kill you?  Thank you for your service Sir!  :) 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/24/2016 at 3:55 PM, olaf hart said:

Yes, what are the mast struts for?

 

On 1/24/2016 at 11:53 AM, Tanton Y_M said:

Mr. Ed.

Yes, 68' Born of Water 1992. Aluminum.

The name of the sail? A mule.

post-32003-0-25552000-1453654348_thumb.jpg

post-32003-0-59544900-1453654382_thumb.jpg

I wonder too.  Maybe guessing would lead to an answer.

They are more than puzzling, seeming to obstruct passage along the deck.  Maybe they are removeable, or only seem in these photos to block, or have been added with respect to an even greater problem - the built DSPL or RM may have been so much over, that rig calculations prior to construction and fitting out had to be re-done with existing mast and standing rigging.  Maybe something was noticed underway.  Or gennaker pole forces needed opposing.

Perhaps over-speculating:  Buckling isn't intuitive or even always predictable with any means.   Demolitions seem to go wrong quite often.  When we watch most boats underway, their motion in a variety of seas seems quite natural, and exceptions may be startling.  But when you watch a structure buckle, the details routinely seem surprising.   An optimizing rig structural analysis calculation can produce quite unequal inter-spreader lengths that "look" wrong.  Perhaps an eye was drawn to what looked like too long a segment below the first spreader.

 

regards,

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