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Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation


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Just like last June, he is denying that they told him they were walking guns to criminal cartels. If it happens again, it doesn't make it new. I can't see that he is hiding anything, so I don't see why you ask what he is hiding. Denying you were told things that were later covered up seems plausible to me. It would seem implausible without the coverup, so maybe you don't see one in this scandal. Do you?

 

Why doesn't that apply for Holder? Or Obama? Or Hillary?

 

In Holder's case, it seems to me that if an FBI informant is using government cash to fund straw purchasers who the ATF is letting walk guns to cartels, someone in charge of both organizations should be coordinating that kind of thing. He is in charge, so was not doing his job or is lying. My guess is lying, based on the fact that it was his department I see doing a coverup here. You did not answer my question. Do you see a coverup?

 

I think he knew about the operation, and would not have allowed it to proceed without checking with his boss and, given the foreign policy implications, the Secretary of State. Obama and Hillary would have been informed before thousands of guns were let go into criminal hands in Mexico. That's just my guess. I don't buy the idea that American foreign policy with Mexico was being conceived and then implemented out in Phoenix without some calls back to DC. I don't buy the idea that ATF agents "threw away the rule book" as Agent Canino testified without any authorization from on high. Bureaucrats like political cover if they are going to toss out the sacred rule book.

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It's Judge Jackson or Judge Berman Jackson. It isn't Judge Berman unless you're watching reality court TV at the laundromat. Actually, I did mean only those documents. Again, the Kenyan’s EP was

Maybe he'll be nicer now that his period is over.

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under

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Just like last June, he is denying that they told him they were walking guns to criminal cartels. If it happens again, it doesn't make it new. I can't see that he is hiding anything, so I don't see why you ask what he is hiding. Denying you were told things that were later covered up seems plausible to me. It would seem implausible without the coverup, so maybe you don't see one in this scandal. Do you?

 

Why doesn't that apply for Holder? Or Obama? Or Hillary?

 

In Holder's case, it seems to me that if an FBI informant is using government cash to fund straw purchasers who the ATF is letting walk guns to cartels, someone in charge of both organizations should be coordinating that kind of thing. He is in charge, so was not doing his job or is lying. My guess is lying, based on the fact that it was his department I see doing a coverup here. You did not answer my question. Do you see a coverup?

 

I think he knew about the operation, and would not have allowed it to proceed without checking with his boss and, given the foreign policy implications, the Secretary of State. Obama and Hillary would have been informed before thousands of guns were let go into criminal hands in Mexico. That's just my guess. I don't buy the idea that American foreign policy with Mexico was being conceived and then implemented out in Phoenix without some calls back to DC. I don't buy the idea that ATF agents "threw away the rule book" as Agent Canino testified without any authorization from on high. Bureaucrats like political cover if they are going to toss out the sacred rule book.

 

There looks to be to have been a bit of an effort to cover it up early on. Very understandable for two reasons, one, it was a sting, and two, there are FBI informants embedded in the cartels. If you manage to get people to trust you with their lives and the lives of their families, then you are responsible, at pain of ones career at the least, for keeping it quiet, and the smallest carelessness can be fatal. The extensive reactions are consistent with SOP in handling HUMINT assets.

 

The hearings convinced me it was cooked up at the local level, all three in the first hearing believed it to be, and that idiot Newell being proud of it kinda sealed the deal. I don't think detailed field op reports get much past the department heads, unless they are asked for. The idea of the Attorney General of the US doing detailed vetting of every op in all the LE branches under him is just plain silly. There are 1000,s at any given time.

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The hearings convinced me it was cooked up at the local level, all three in the first hearing believed it to be, and that idiot Newell being proud of it kinda sealed the deal. I don't think detailed field op reports get much past the department heads, unless they are asked for. The idea of the Attorney General of the US doing detailed vetting of every op in all the LE branches under him is just plain silly. There are 1000,s at any given time.

While the idea may have originated with Newell and the gang, who seem to have had the same stupid idea before, that does not mean they could or did authorize and approve it without clearance from above.

 

I agree that the AG can not and does not vet every operation, I just think that sensitive ones receive that attention. This one would qualify because it steps outside ATF rules about not walking guns, but more because it was an operation involving a foreign country, and that country was not informed. That's a huge step for a local to take without clearance from Washington, and I think it is silly to believe it could happen. Not as silly as believing that the hearings were conjured up by the NRA to intimidate the ATF and increase gun dealer sales, so not the silliest notion you have posted in this thread, but darn silly all the same.

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...how far up the chain of command should approval originate?

 

Top of the ATF. The head honcho. The big cheese. And he had damn well get Justice to sign off on it before he does it too.

 

Cooked up at the local level, perhaps, but authorized by who at Justice, and whose department is that again?

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You still think Mexico has a legitimate beef about being left out of the loop?

 

I don't think there should have been any "loop" at all here. The whole gunwalking operation was a bad idea.

 

As far as legitimate operations, I agree with the IG and the Obama administration that better coordination with Mexican authorities and showing respect for them by communicating with them is a good policy.

 

If covert operations that circumvent that policy are needed, those are matters of international relations that should be approved at the highest levels. If I were President, I would not want some loose cannon out there pissing off other countries. That is why I find it hard to believe that Obama and/or Holder did not know about the gunwalking. Who else thinks they have the authority to screw with another country and violate our policies?

 

If the answer to my question above is really "some locals" and not the top levels of our government, we're in trouble. Fortunately, I still think that is a silly answer, so we're in a different kind of trouble.

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Seem to have struck a nerve...

 

Don't worry. Issa will find the Holy Grail one of these days, but this appears to be a simple case of somebody putting a carrot nose on somebody else and hollering "Witch!". Remember, your favorite color dress is "blue".

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How did Agent Hope McAllister know when the straw buyers would be coming, how much money they would bring, and what their shopping list would include?

 

Possibly through coordination with the FBI informant who was the actual buyer?

 

Who might coordinate the activities of the various agencies under Eric Holder?

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The hearings convinced me it was cooked up at the local level, all three in the first hearing believed it to be, and that idiot Newell being proud of it kinda sealed the deal. I don't think detailed field op reports get much past the department heads, unless they are asked for.

 

or

 

 

Top of the ATF. The head honcho. The big cheese. And he had damn well get Justice to sign off on it before he does it too.

 

Which is it? Did locals authorize this, or the head of the ATF with approval from his bosses at Justice?

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Holder to testilie to Congress on December 8th

 

CBS News has learned Attorney General Eric Holder has agreed to appear before the House Judiciary Committee regarding "Fast and Furious." The hearing will take place Dec. 8th.

 

Judiciary Committee member and head of the House Oversight Committee Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) had requested that Holder appear, in part to dig deeper into when-he-knew-what about ATF's so-called "gunwalking" operation Fast and Furious.

 

In May, Holder testified that he only first heard about Fast and Furious a few weeks before. However, as CBS News reported, documents and memos indicate he had been sent multiple briefings mentioning Fast and Furious in 2010.

 

Holder later explained in a letter to Congress that he didn't read those memos, and that in any event, nobody at the Justice Department who knew of Fast and Furious was aware of the specific "gunwalking" tactics used.

 

 

Rep. Cummings wants Melson to appear as well, and his attorney says he is willing.

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The hearings convinced me it was cooked up at the local level, all three in the first hearing believed it to be, and that idiot Newell being proud of it kinda sealed the deal. I don't think detailed field op reports get much past the department heads, unless they are asked for.

 

or

 

 

Top of the ATF. The head honcho. The big cheese. And he had damn well get Justice to sign off on it before he does it too.

 

Which is it? Did locals authorize this, or the head of the ATF with approval from his bosses at Justice?

 

Not mutually exclusive. You parsed a comment out of its context. Again.

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The hearings convinced me it was cooked up at the local level, all three in the first hearing believed it to be, and that idiot Newell being proud of it kinda sealed the deal. I don't think detailed field op reports get much past the department heads, unless they are asked for.

 

or

 

Top of the ATF. The head honcho. The big cheese. And he had damn well get Justice to sign off on it before he does it too.

 

Which is it? Did locals authorize this, or the head of the ATF with approval from his bosses at Justice?

 

Not mutually exclusive. You parsed a comment out of its context. Again.

 

Which one is out of context? Put it back in the proper context, then. I thought both comments were related to this scandal, having come from the discussion about it.

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Lanny Breuer regrets not telling Holder about gunwalking

 

I hope he likes his new scapegoat outfit.

 

Back in July, he was still being protected...

 

In other testimony, former ATF Attache to Mexico Darren Gil repeated information he gave in an exclusive CBS News interview several months ago. He told investigators that the Justice Department's Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, Lanny Breuer, was well aware of Fast and Furious, and referred to the case supportively when visiting Mexico.

 

ATF gunwalking: Who knew, and how high up?

 

The Justice Department neither confirmed nor denied what Breuer may have known, but when contacted yesterday afternoon, a spokesman called the allegation an "old charge." The spokesman added that wiretaps approved by the Justice Department are "narrow assessments" generally approved by Assistant Attorneys General, but "not Lanny."

 

 

So the idea that he knew about the gunwalking was "old news" back then, but no one said it was old, inaccurate news, did they?

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Senator Feinstein chimes in on Fast and Furious

 

“My concern, Mr. Chairman, is there’s been a lot said about Fast and Furious, and perhaps mistakes were made, but I think this hunt for blame doesn’t really speak about the problem,” Feinstein said during the Tuesday hearing. “And the problem is, anybody can walk in and buy anything, .50-caliber weapons, sniper weapons, buy them in large amounts, and send them down to Mexico. So, the question really becomes, what do we do about this?”

 

In a stunning display of awareness, she thinks it possible that mistakes might have been made here. Hey, at least she thinks it is possible, not impossible, so I guess that's good, considering the source.

 

She is also apparently unaware of many of our firearms laws, since "anybody" can't buy guns and no one can buy a gun for anyone but himself, much less send them to Mexico. At least, they can't if they are not working with the ATF to do so. Uh, if the ATF made a mistake, which is possible. :rolleyes:

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Clinton remembers learning about gunwalking from the press

 

Appearing before the House Foreign Affairs committee, Clinton was questioned by Rep. Connie Mack (R-Fla.) about the State Department’s involvement in the controversial Fast and Furious operation that has triggered hearings on Capitol Hill.

 

Mack asked Clinton if State had issued “the Justice Department a license or a written waiver in order to allow for the transfer of thousands of weapons across the U.S.-Mexico border?”

 

The secretary testified that State had “no record of any request for coordination. We have no record of any kind of notice or heads up.”

 

“My recollection is that I heard about it from the press,” Clinton added.

 

Claiming that it was the first time she had been asked that question, Clinton said that she had seen “no evidence” that such a waiver was granted and promised to investigate the matter further.

 

 

So nobody checks with the State Department, Department of Justice, or President before allowing thousands of guns to go to Mexican cartels. That's just the kind of thing that local officials routinely do in a big government like ours, and is easily overlooked. If someone does happen to notice it, it's completely unremarkable and no action is taken.

 

Really? This is the official line. Our government is that stupid, and has no ability to communicate and coordinate at all, apparently. If I thought it were true, I would want to dismantle the whole thing, not just parts of it. :P

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Clinton remembers learning about gunwalking from the press

 

Appearing before the House Foreign Affairs committee, Clinton was questioned by Rep. Connie Mack (R-Fla.) about the State Department’s involvement in the controversial Fast and Furious operation that has triggered hearings on Capitol Hill.

 

Mack asked Clinton if State had issued “the Justice Department a license or a written waiver in order to allow for the transfer of thousands of weapons across the U.S.-Mexico border?”

 

The secretary testified that State had “no record of any request for coordination. We have no record of any kind of notice or heads up.”

 

“My recollection is that I heard about it from the press,” Clinton added.

 

Claiming that it was the first time she had been asked that question, Clinton said that she had seen “no evidence” that such a waiver was granted and promised to investigate the matter further.

 

 

So nobody checks with the State Department, Department of Justice, or President before allowing thousands of guns to go to Mexican cartels. That's just the kind of thing that local officials routinely do in a big government like ours, and is easily overlooked. If someone does happen to notice it, it's completely unremarkable and no action is taken.

 

Really? This is the official line. Our government is that stupid, and has no ability to communicate and coordinate at all, apparently. If I thought it were true, I would want to dismantle the whole thing, not just parts of it. :P

 

This Appeal to Incredulity is well done, but Iran-Contra can be cited as a previous occurrence.

 

One of the problems with railing about "Big Government" is that you have to acknowledge the truism that the bigger the butt, the bigger the chance happenings on the right cheek go unknown on the left.

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A most particularly outrageous conclusion post-9/11. We are so far into the realm of the rediculous that absurdity rules. Feinstein is trying to bring the focus back on gun control - raison d'etre for F&F.

Ahhh, so we will control US guns by sending them to Mexico????

 

How many guns were used on 9/11? If it was a lot, maybe that's a good reason to associate it with gun control.

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Not my point. 9/11 highlighted that the compartmentalization of information within stovepiped intel organizations contributed to our inability to detect and prevent the attack. The past 10 years has been all about sharing information. Consequently, the claim that no one at State or Justice knew that this was happening is completely implausible given the changes that were implemented.

 

When a case is being made for greater gun control by the Administration AND they make factually misleading public statements about the percentage of US guns found in Mexico to bolster their case, while simultaneously permitting thousands of guns to walk across the border, you have to admit it's eerily consistent behavior. Even if you can make a compelling case that the primary focus wasn't on gun control, which I don't think anyone can, you can be sure it certainly was a part of the consideration; that the only real downside of losing track of the guns would help make the case for more gun control.

 

What I find disturbing is that there are those here that appear to support this activity even if the worst of the allegations asserted about this operation were proven true.

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Not my point. 9/11 highlighted that the compartmentalization of information within stovepiped intel organizations contributed to our inability to detect and prevent the attack. The past 10 years has been all about sharing information. Consequently, the claim that no one at State or Justice knew that this was happening is completely implausible given the changes that were implemented.

 

When a case is being made for greater gun control by the Administration AND they make factually misleading public statements about the percentage of US guns found in Mexico to bolster their case, while simultaneously permitting thousands of guns to walk across the border, you have to admit it's eerily consistent behavior. Even if you can make a compelling case that the primary focus wasn't on gun control, which I don't think anyone can, you can be sure it certainly was a part of the consideration; that the only real downside of losing track of the guns would help make the case for more gun control.

 

What I find disturbing is that there are those here that appear to support this activity even if the worst of the allegations asserted about this operation were proven true.

 

Actually Wayne LaPierre is making the case that since this administration is NOT seeking more gun control, it proves how devious those Democrats are about taking are guns.

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Chief lawyer for Grassley on the Judiciary Committee says:

 

Just the Facts on Fast and Furious

 

The facts are so clear that there isn't much the Department and its defenders can say, other than to lash out and blame the messengers. The fact is that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) encouraged gun dealers to sell assault rifles to known straw purchasers illegally buying on behalf of others.

The fact is that the Justice Department oversaw the operation as ATF literally watched bad guys collect hundreds of guns—week after week—for nearly a year.

 

 

Despite the straw buyers' clear intent to transfer the weapons to criminals and cartels south of the border, the fact is that no one was arrested. Not until two of the guns showed up at the scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's murder did the government finally act on what it knew. Those are the facts.

 

...

 

Documents recently released by the Department show that Mr. Holder's deputy took detailed notes on an extensive briefing about Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. He also received briefing papers in the immediate aftermath of Agent Terry's murder.

It's clear that senior officials directly below the Attorney General received detailed information in connection with their responsibilities to oversee the case. In light of this evidence, it's perfectly reasonable to ask for clarification about exactly who knew what and when.



 

 

It's not that they didn't know, it's that no one seems to have figured out this was a bad idea until the death of Brian Terry.

 

More about Brian Terry and the circumstances of his death.

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Slow Learners?

 

Gunwalking refers to a controversial investigative tactic allowing guns to be sold to suspected traffickers to see where they'd end up, and try to take down a "big fish" in a drug cartel. As CBS News reported last March, Wide Receiver let hundreds of weapons "walk" in 2006 and 2007, prior to inception of the larger Fast and Furious operation in 2009 and 2010.

 

The 2006 memo citing "moral objections" from ATF's legal counsel is among more than 600 pages of subpoenaed documents turned over this week to Congressional investigators. The memo asks then-U.S. Attorney Paul Charlton to weigh in on the gunwalking proposal. Charlton told CBS News he has no memory of the memo but "I don't believe I would have or ever did approve letting guns walk." He says his Assistant U.S. Attorney on the case at the time recently assured him the memo was disapproved.

 

"It's almost an I.Q. test," Charlton told CBS News, meaning nobody would approve the "preposterous" idea as outlined in the memo. But he notes, "Somebody did it (gunwalking) anyway, in disregard of what was disallowed, and repeated it again in Fast and Furious."

 

Phoenix ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell oversaw both gunwalking operations. Newell was named to head the Phoenix office in June 2006. One month later came the memo seeking approval for the gunwalking. At a January press conference, Newell was asked if guns were allowed to walk in Fast and Furious, and he replied "hell, no." That answer was soon revealed as false, and Newell was transferred to ATF headquarters.

 

I swear I did not edit that text in any way, and the last sentence really does end with "ATF headquarters" and not "federal prison."

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Representative Joe Walsh: Did the Democrats Plan to Use Fast & Furious to Impose New Gun Laws?

Senator Dianne Feinstein: Obviously Fast & Furious Proves We Need To Impose New Gun Laws

The US Government forced gun dealers, against their will, to sell guns to criminals, who then used them to kill 200 people.

 

Obviously, then, we need new gun laws, rather than, say, a new US Government. http://www.ace.mu.nu/

 

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Sen. John Cornyn: “Have you apologized to the family of Brian Terry?”

 

Attorney General Eric Holder: “I have not apologized to them, but I certainly regret what happened.”

 

Cornyn: “Have you even talked to them?”

 

Holder: “I have not.”

 

Cornyn: “Would you like to apologize today for this program that went so wrong that took the life of a United States law enforcement agent?”

 

Holder: “I certainly regret what happened to Agent Brian Terry. I can only imagine the pain that his family has had to deal with, in particular his mother. I am a father of three children myself. We are not programmed to bury our kids. It pains me whenever there is a death of a law enforcement official, especially under the circumstances that this occurred. It is not fair, however, to assume that the mistakes that happened in Fast & Furious directly led to the death of Agent Terry. Again my feelings of sympathy and regret go out to the Terry family and I hope that the steps that we have put in place, the measures that I have called for will prevent other federal agents, local, state agents from being the subject of this kind of violence as well as civilians, both in the United States and in Mexico.

 

Keep reading…

 

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Representative Joe Walsh: Did the Democrats Plan to Use Fast & Furious to Impose New Gun Laws?

Senator Dianne Feinstein: Obviously Fast & Furious Proves We Need To Impose New Gun Laws

The US Government forced gun dealers, against their will, to sell guns to criminals, who then used them to kill 200 people.

 

Obviously, then, we need new gun laws, rather than, say, a new US Government. http://www.ace.mu.nu/

 

 

Slow Learners?

 

Gunwalking refers to a controversial investigative tactic allowing guns to be sold to suspected traffickers to see where they'd end up, and try to take down a "big fish" in a drug cartel. As CBS News reported last March, Wide Receiver let hundreds of weapons "walk" in 2006 and 2007, prior to inception of the larger Fast and Furious operation in 2009 and 2010.

 

The 2006 memo citing "moral objections" from ATF's legal counsel is among more than 600 pages of subpoenaed documents turned over this week to Congressional investigators. The memo asks then-U.S. Attorney Paul Charlton to weigh in on the gunwalking proposal. Charlton told CBS News he has no memory of the memo but "I don't believe I would have or ever did approve letting guns walk." He says his Assistant U.S. Attorney on the case at the time recently assured him the memo was disapproved.

 

"It's almost an I.Q. test," Charlton told CBS News, meaning nobody would approve the "preposterous" idea as outlined in the memo. But he notes, "Somebody did it (gunwalking) anyway, in disregard of what was disallowed, and repeated it again in Fast and Furious."

 

Phoenix ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell oversaw both gunwalking operations. Newell was named to head the Phoenix office in June 2006. One month later came the memo seeking approval for the gunwalking. At a January press conference, Newell was asked if guns were allowed to walk in Fast and Furious, and he replied "hell, no." That answer was soon revealed as false, and Newell was transferred to ATF headquarters.

 

I swear I did not edit that text in any way, and the last sentence really does end with "ATF headquarters" and not "federal prison."

 

The Bush administration initiated a plot to impose new gun laws?

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The Bush administration initiated a plot to impose new gun laws?

 

Yes, we know that the TPM Muckraker spin is that Bush did the same thing as Obama. Not really the same, but there are similarities and differences. How it ended up, from upthread:

 

The following day, ATF Acting Director for Field Operation William Hoover was demanding information on the strategy.

 

“Have we discussed the strategy with the U.S. Attorney’s Office re letting the guns walk? Do we have this approval in writing? Have we discussed and thought thru the consequences of same?” Hoover wrote to Newell and Carroll. “Are we tracking south of the border? Same re U.S. Attorney’s Office. Did we find out why they missed the hand-off of the vehicle? What are the expected outcomes?

 

“I do not want any firearms to go south until further notice,” Hoover wrote on Oct 5. “I expect a full briefing paper on my desk Tuesday morning from SAC Newell with every question answered.”

 

After a couple hundred guns were lost, that program was shut down. The Inspector General report linked near the beginning of this thread did not exactly hail the program as a huge success. Despite these failures, the same basic model was tried again, only without the element of tracking devices on the guns and aircraft overhead, under the Obama administration.

 

This time, thousands of guns walked instead of hundreds, and the reactions from leadership seem a bit different to me too. Instead of "shut it down and explain yourselves" we have seen that the program dragged on for months after agents began complaining about the stupidity/futility of it all.

 

I said slow learners in my post above, but really things got worse, not better, so I guess it would be more accurate to say non-learners, given the highlighted differences.

 

One thing is for sure, as long as Newell continues to get promoted every time something like this happens, it will continue to happen. As long as whistleblowers like Vince Cefalu are mistreated, people will be reluctant to come forward.

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Former Arizona U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, who resigned in August, admitted late Tuesday that he leaked a document aimed at smearing Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent John Dodson, an Operation Fast and Furious whistle-blower.

 

“Dennis regrets his role in disclosing the memo but he’s a stand-up guy and is willing to take responsibility for what he did,” Chuck Rosenberg, Burke’s lawyer, said according to NPR.

 

 

Uh huh. Stand up guy. Just like Holder. Stand up guy.

 

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Holder admits earlier perjury before Congress

 

His new testimony amounts to an admission that he misled Congress during that May 3 hearing. House oversight committee chairman Rep. Darrell Issa and Rep. Jason Chaffetz both asked him during that hearing when he had first learned of “Fast and Furious,” and he answered the same way twice.

 

“I did say a ‘few weeks,’” Holder clarified Tuesday, responding to questions from Vermont Democratic Sen. Patrick Leahy, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee. “I probably could’ve said ‘a couple of months.’ I didn’t think the term I said, ‘few weeks,’ was inaccurate based on what happened.”

 

Holder also admitted to Leahy that Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley handed him letters in person in late January, months before Holder previously claimed he knew of the controversial initiative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The BATFE is a division of the Department of Justice.

 

“I got from Sen. Grassley, what indicate [sic], a couple letters from him at the end of January, I believe it was January the 31st,” Holder testified. “These letters talked about a connection between an operation and the death of Agent Terry. It did not mention Fast and Furious, it just referenced Operation Gunrunner. I asked my staff to look into this and during the month of February, I became aware of Fast and Furious from press reports and others that I received from Sen. Grassley.”

 

 

February is more than a few weeks from May.

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Dennis Burke admits leaking memo used to smear whistleblower Dodson

 

When Burke resigned in August, Holder commended his service to the DOJ and didn’t mention that his resignation had anything do with Operation Fast and Furious. In a glowing statement commending Burke as he resigned, Holder said he “has demonstrated an unwavering commitment to the Department of Justice and the U.S. Attorney’s office, first as a line prosecutor over a decade ago and more recently as United States Attorney.”

 

During Tuesday’s Senate hearing, though, when pressed on what he has done to hold his officials accountable for Fast and Furious, Holder said Burke’s resignation was in response to Operation Fast and Furious.

 

 

"Lateral" promotions (Newell) and glowing recommendations from the Attorney General upon resignation (Burke) are not exactly what I have in mind when I think of holding someone responsible for this debacle. If a bunch of gun dealers got together and orchestrated thousands of sales like these, they would be in jail. Why are government officials immune to that consequence?

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Are you denying that he testified before Congress in May that he learned of this a few weeks before, denying Grassley's letter of January 31st exists and should have merited action on Holder's part, denying that many media sources, notably CBS News and Political Anarchy (hey, ask Clean) reported on this scandal before Holder said he learned of it?

 

I want to know which part to prove without reference to crackpots, but I have to know how deep your denial runs. Do you buy Mark's theory that this whole investigation is just an NRA smear job trying to increase dealer sales?

 

Holder denied the existence of the Grassley letter? Really? Can you show us where he did that?

 

Or are you going to resort to the "obvious caricature" defense again?

 

Good grief. Trouble with compound sentences again? Let me break it down for you again.

 

Are you denying that he testified before Congress in May that he learned of this a few weeks before?

 

Are you denying Grassley's letter of January 31st exists and should have merited action on Holder's part?

 

Are you denying that many media sources, notably CBS News and Political Anarchy (hey, ask Clean) reported on this scandal before Holder said he learned of it?

 

I don't have any trouble at all. Saying that Holder is "denying Grassley's letter of January 31st exists" is bullshit. Holder isn't denying that a letter that wasn't even addressed to him doesn't exist.

 

If Grassley wanted Holder to take some "action," then why didn't he address the letter to Holder? Do you think that the Attorney General personally reads every piece of correspondence that arrives at his office? What do you think an assistant does with a letter that isn't even addressed to him? Have you ever worked in a big organization? How do you think a "CC" is used?

 

...

 

Hand delivering Holder's copy should have gotten his attention. I think the AG should read anything hand-delivered by a Senator. I think an assistant informs his boss of any alarming content in a letter or memo, but then, I think letting thousands of guns walk is alarming, so wtf do I know? I have worked in a big organization. Cc might not get the attention that hand delivering a copy in person would presumably get.

 

Sorry for the late answers to all your questions. It took a while for the relevant truth to emerge.

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I wish we knew what Grassley said to Holder back in January when he handed him the letters about this program. You don't just hand over letters in person without a word being spoken.

 

It might be interesting, but really would not change anything. After receiving information on this program in person from a Senator in January, Holder should have at least found time to learn the name "Fast and Furious" before hearing it in the media in April, even if he learned nothing else about the program.

 

Lying or incompetent remain the only choices I can think of to describe Eric Holder. I'm still going with lying.

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Back to boring but relevant pictures. The various clue bats that hit Eric Holder, to no apparent effect:

 

Cornyntimeline.jpg

 

Grassley is complaining about the DOJ's failure to produce witnesses.

 

The ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee says the Justice Department has refused to make available 11 of 12 department witnesses called by the panel for transcribed interviews in the ongoing investigation of the botched Fast and Furious weapons operation.

 

Sen. Chuck Grassley said that despite the department’s promises of good faith cooperation in the probe, only one witness has been provided so far - former U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke in Arizona, who resigned in August after taking responsibility for his mistakes during testimony about Fast and Furious before a House committee.

 

“The department has refused to schedule interviews with any of the other 11 witnesses. That’s not the good-faith cooperation I was promised, and it is unacceptable,” said Mr. Grassley, Iowa Republican. “If this controversy has taught us anything, it is that you have to talk directly to the people who know the facts.

 

“If Congress had relied on the department’s official talking points, we still wouldn’t know the truth today,” he said Thursday during the committee’s executive business meeting.

 

...

 

Mr. Grassley said it also appears from those documents that Mr. Breuer’s deputy, Jason Weinstein, knew about ATF gun-walking in both operations.

 

“Anyone who knew about gun-walking in any case also knew that the department’s initial letter to me was false,” he said. “The attorney general said the letter was based on the best information available at the time. But senior officials at headquarters, like Breuer and Weinstein, knew better.”

 

Mr. Grassley said Mr. Weinstein briefed committee staff on Feb. 10 but failed to disclose what he knew about ATF walking guns.

 

The Justice Department did not respond to an email requesting comment.

 

Mr. Issa this week also asked Ronald Weich, assistant attorney general for legislative affairs, to explain who prepared or helped prepare a Feb. 4 letter he sent to Mr. Grassley denying that guns had been walked into Mexico as part of Fast and Furious.

 

He said the congressional investigation of the operation has shown that the statement was untrue, and that senior Justice Department officials knew at the time Mr. Weich made the denial that it was untrue.

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I_still_ want to hear a bit more re State Dept's knowledge of this. Why is there no mention of State? Hilly was in the know in '09 supposedly, why is she being protected?

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Stonewallers to be covered with egg, Grassley says

 

“I tell all these people that stonewall on giving us information, the longer you stonewall, the more egg you’re going to have on your face when the facts come out,” Grassley said. “[The DOJ] should have told us back on Feb. 4 what they knew about -- but no, in fact, a lie can go on for nine months and more egg on their face.”

 

Grassley was referring to a letter he received in February from Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich, Holder’s deputy, assuring the committee that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms “makes every effort” to stop illegal weapons from getting into Mexico from the United States.

 

At another judiciary committee hearing back on Nov. 1, Grassley questioned Lanny Breuer, head of DOJ’s criminal division about the letter, and told Holder about that exchange on Tuesday.

 

“Last week, the head of the Criminal Division, Lanny Breuer, said that he deeply regrets his failure to tell you earlier about gun walking and Operation Wide Receiver, but what about his failure to tell Congress and correct false statements in the department's letter to me on February 4th?” Grassley asked. “Is that acceptable to you, that he did not tell us about those false statements in the letter of February 4th?”

 

Holder responded that some of the information in Weich’s letter was “inaccurate” and that it could have been “better crafted.”

 

“The letter could have been better crafted,” Holder said. “We were relying in the crafting of that letter -- people were relying on information provided to them by people who were, we thought, in the best position to know what was accurate.”

 

By February 4th, whistleblowers were already talking to Senate staffers (and experiencing retaliation for same.) It was already obvious to almost everyone that the ATF had not been "making every effort" to stop guns from flowing to Mexico. Even the Washington Post was aware of the allegations by then.

 

They could have picked up the paper and read this:

 

Whistleblowers who have contacted a U.S. senator allege that federal agents allowed guns, including the AK-47s, to be sold to suspected straw buyers who transported the weapons throughout the region and into Mexico.

 

Law enforcement investigators have not concluded whether either of the guns was used to kill Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, said a law enforcement source who requested anonymity because the case is ongoing.

 

Terry, 40, was killed in a gun battle Dec. 14 along the border southwest of Tucson. He was part of an elite Border Patrol team that had been patrolling a canyon frequented by bandits who ambush and rob illegal immigrants. Four men were arrested, but no one has been charged in the killing. A fifth man eluded police.

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The AK-47s have become part of a multi-agency federal investigation code-named Fast and Furious, part of a southwest border crackdown on firearms known as Project Gunrunner. The agent's death led one member of Congress to criticize Project Gunrunner and has also roiled officials at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who are fighting to save funding for the program.

 

Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), a member of the Judiciary Committee, wrote to ATF Acting Director Kenneth Melson on Friday that he had "serious concerns that the ATF may have become careless, if not negligent, in implementing the Gunrunner strategy."

 

If you read something like that in the Washington Post, the thing to do before sending a letter denying that guns were walked would seem to be to interview every agent involved in the case. They are the ones in the best position to know what was accurate. Anyone bright enough to get through law school should be able to figure that one out. They did not, meaning they are incompetent, or they are lying.

 

I agree with the family of Brian Terry that they are lying.

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The Department of Transparency is hard at work, I see.

 

The case against the alleged killers of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry has disappeared from federal court records, apparently sealed by a federal judge.

 

In May, federal prosecutors won an indictment against Manuel Osorio-Arellanes and others, and they announced it with a press release. Only Osorio-Arellanes’ name was visible in the indictment, but there were blacked-out words where other defendants’ names go.

 

Osorio-Arellanes was charged with second-degree murder and was not considered the likely shooter. He had been wounded during the gunfight that left Terry dead.

 

But in the ensuing months, the case disappeared from court records.

 

Why? Nobody is saying.

 

Asked about the case, Debra Hartman, spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney’s Office in San Diego, which is prosecuting the case, said via email: “Yes, our office is handling the case and can’t comment further.”

 

 

Secret defendants at first, then the whole case was moved from Phoenix to San Diego when having Phoenix investigate itself became untenable. Now San Diego has to pursue the case in secret? Why?

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Why? The why should be obvious. We made secret agreements with drug cartels and have undercover operatives in place; not to mention the massive ass-covering operation to isolate those that will ultimately take the blame. The light of day on the details will end some lives; it's terrific leverage to protect the guilty.

 

I recall McNamara's famous words "We have access to information that you don't have" as his basis for what he ultimately admitted were wrong decisions in Vietnam.

 

They must be laughing their asses off in Mexico as they play this administration for the fools they are.

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The trial in question is about the murder of Agent Terry. I don't see how a lot of the Fast and Furious stuff is relevant to that trial. The source of the gun(s) that were the actual murder weapons may be relevant, but that does not mean delving so far into the details as to expose the FBI informant who was supposedly the cartel buyer.

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Good point, but I'm assuming that as the intended victims of the take-the-blame game negotiate for their stay-out-of-jail-free cards, the Gov't doesn't want their plans unraveling by inadvertent leaks of sensitive testimony.

 

I'm also guessing there's more here than meets the eye. Possibly regarding the route the weapons took (tracking technology?), maybe the identity of those that were carrying them, etc? Nothing we're going to learn about from the NYT that's for sure!

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I doubt it had anything to do with tracking technology, since tracking the guns did not seem to be a goal of the operation.

 

Meanwhile, the chorus of "I never read that one" continues...

 

McCain repeatedly asked Ohlson about the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and why Ohlson didn't push for answers about what happened.

 

"When a border patrol agent is murdered, you don't say, 'Hey, what's the story here; how did this happen?'"

 

Ohlson said he was briefed on Terry's death but didn't link it to Operation Fast and Furious because he had no knowledge of the gun-walking program at that time.

 

However, Ohlson acknowledged both in his written response and in his testimony before the committee that he had received briefing memos that referenced Fast and Furious.

 

"I have been informed that routine courtesy copies of weekly reports were forwarded to me that referred to the operation by name. ... I did not review them," Ohlson wrote.

 

On Thursday, McCain asked Ohlson about a specific memo that he received discussing the Operation: "So, you get a memo and it says it's part of Operation Fast and Furious and you don't say, 'Hey, what's Operation Fast and Furious?'"

 

"I did not read that report," Ohlson responded.

 

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Gun Control Is Not the Answer to Mexico's Violent Crime Problem

 

"Instead of reducing violence, Mexico's 'war on drugs' has resulted in a dramatic increase in killings, torture, and other appalling abuses by security forces, which only make the climate of lawlessness and fear worse in many parts of the country, said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director for the organization.

 

Like other panelists at the conference in Los Angeles, Quintana took pains to make clear that Mexico's tragedy was tied to the US and the way we deal with the drugs we love to hate (or hate to love). "This is a bi-national war," he said. "America sends the guns and money, and Mexico gets the deaths."

 

Prohibition is a godsend to the cartels, said El Paso city councilwoman Byrd, who explained how a pound of marijuana sells for $25 in Mexico's pot-growing areas but $525 in Chicago. "Legalizing marijuana is the best way to take it to the cartels," she said.

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NRA Provides Details on Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation

The Obama Regime deliberately allowed American guns to be smuggled into Mexico, knowing that they would be used to create mayhem when they inevitably bounced back across the deliberately under-defended border. The purpose: to undermine our constitutional right to bear arms by using American-bought guns in Mexican hands as a propaganda cudgel. Border Agent Brian Terry, while providing free police services to illegal aliens, was killed by one of these weapons when he was sent up against heavily armed Mexican bandits with a beanbag gun. Details from Wayne LaPierre of the NRA:

http://www.glennbeck...-news-on-radio/

 

Wayne explained, "What's going on is NRA called for full‑scale congressional investigations into this program that our government, the Obama administration was running called Fast and Furious."

 

"Apparently what was going on and this is all based on what agents, law enforcement agents, are coming forward under the Whistleblower Act and saying is that we all heard Hillary Clinton and Eric Holder and the administration saying 90% of the guns the cartels are getting are coming from the United States."

 

"Blaming the Second Amendment, lock, stock and barrel for the guns of the Mexican gun cartels."

 

"Problem was they could only prove a trickle. What it looks like, apparently, is someone in this administration, in our federal government, set out to turn that trickle into a river of guns flowing from the United States into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels over the border into their hands."

 

"It's called Fast and Furious. They did it over the objections of their field agents who said if we send guns over the border into the hands of these evil people, the Mexican drug cartels, we'll see these guns again. These people will cause harm with these guns."

 

"They wept ahead and did it. They, in effect, set up a dealership. They set up an illegal pipe line and they pumped thousands and thousands according to the agents' words, guns, from the United States over the border into the hands of the Mexican drug cartel."

 

"We're arming the military to help stop them, or are you saying there's actually an illegal gun smuggling ring that was set up by the United States government to push to actually put them in the hands of the bad guys?" Glenn asked.

 

 

so Wheres the KKK when you Really need them.....

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Fast and Furious 'scandal' is a Republican red herring: What we really need are tougher gun laws

 

Eric Holder is being blamed for a program that is not his creation

 

BY Carolyn Maloney

 

Republicans are roasting AG Eric Holder over an ATF program that precedes him by several years.

 

Operation Fast and Furious, the attempt to stop gun trafficking into Mexico gone horribly wrong, is now providing political fodder for a Washington game of “gotcha” that underscores everything wrong with our political system.

 

In Fast and Furious, federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents allowed guns illegally purchased at American gun shops by Mexican gun-runners to be taken back to Mexico, with the hope that the low-level buyers would lead ATF agents to trafficking kingpins.

 

But this initiative, which was identical to one launched under the Bush administration, spiraled out of control, with ATF agents losing track of the guns as soon as they crossed the border. Two of the weapons were later recovered at the scene of the December 2010 murder of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.

 

(Identical except for the differences. ATF agents lost track of the guns when they were ordered to do things like follow straw buyers who had just handed them off and leave safe houses.)

 

Yes, this operation was ill-conceived. Americans who are outraged at Terry’s death rightly want to know whether it has been scrapped and whether Attorney General Eric Holder, who oversees ATF, is aggressively investigating Fast and Furious. I can report that the answer to both of those questions is a resounding yes.

 

(Aggressive is a subjective term, but he seems to have learned many pertinent facts more slowly than we did in this thread. I'd call that not aggressive enough, or something...)

 

But for Republican congressional leaders, one botched operation is not enough to serve their political goals. They need a scandal — and are desperate to create one.

 

(Agents said that their supervisors were jubilant when F&F guns showed up at Mexican crime scenes, since it meant the strategy was working.)

 

In testimony in May before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, on which I sit, Holder said he learned about Operation Fast and Furious several weeks earlier. He had ordered the Justice Department’s inspector general to investigate it and made clear that the tactics used in the program would not be tolerated. But in subsequent weeks, Republicans produced documents sent to the AG’s office the prior year containing references to the operation. So a “scandal” was born.

 

(And, we recently learned, Senator Grassley hand-delivered letters containing the allegations he was investigating months earlier. The nature of the allegations being made by the agents, especially in light of Agent Terry's death, should have sparked some curiousity. Unless he already knew.)

 

As with all Washington scandals, one must look behind the allegations. Holder explained that some of the weekly reports reviewed by his staff did occasionally mention Fast and Furious, though none of the documents (which he provided to the committee) gave any indication of controversial tactics — or that these had gone wrong. Multiple officials from Justice and ATF testified they didn’t know about illegal guns flowing to Mexico, either.

 

(And many of the ones believed to have pertinent information are not being made available to the committee.)

 

Of course, Republicans quickly alleged that there had been a coverup. The head of the National Rifle Association called it “the biggest coverup since Watergate,” while a Republican congressman said that top Justice officials were “accessories to murder.”

 

But this is pure politics. After all, House Republicans have yet to haul before Congress former AG Alberto Gonzales, even though the controversial tactics used in Fast and Furious began under his watch. According to recent media reports, another Bush-era AG, Michael Mukasey, received a detailed Fast and Furious briefing in 2007. But only Holder took decisive action in response to these dangerous tactics.

 

(Fast and Furious began in 2009. Project Gunrunner began in 2006. Mukasey could not have been briefed on a program that was two years in the future, but probably was on Wide Receiver, a program that was identical except for the differences, as noted above.)

 

This political sideshow is obscuring a vital issue: the ongoing violence in Mexico, which has claimed the lives of at least 35,000 people since 2006 and is fueled, in large part, by illegal weapons smuggled in from the U.S. According to Mexican President Felipe Calderon, Mexico has seized approximately 100,000 guns in the last four years; 84% of them originated in America.

 

(Or 90%, or 70%, or whatever number we're using today. :rolleyes:)

 

“Straw purchases,” in which low-level operatives buy guns on behalf of others (the practice targeted in Fast and Furious), are one of the primary methods traffickers use to obtain weapons, often 10 or 20 at a time. These purchases are made possible by lax gun laws in the U.S. — laws supported by most of my Republican colleagues.

 

(The practice was not "targeted" in F&F, it was encouraged. The gun dealers were reluctant to make the obviously illegal sales, but were told to go ahead by ATF.)

 

This is an actual scandal. Yet at a hearing this spring, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) tried to prevent me from asking an ATF agent whether current criminal penalties are so weak that federal prosecutors are discouraged from pursuing cases involving straw purchasers. I asked the question; the agent agreed that our weak gun laws are, in fact, helping funnel weapons into Mexico.

 

(An illegal firearm purchase can bring a felony conviction sentence of ten years in jail and a fine of up to $250,000.)

 

My GOP colleagues have done little to help law enforcement counter this vast criminal enterprise. A bill I introduced this summer to prohibit firearms trafficking and increase penalties for straw purchasers currently has zero Republican co-sponsors.

 

(Firearms trafficking is already illegal and the penalty for straw buying is already pretty severe.)

 

In a June 3 video released by Al Qaeda, a spokesman urges would-be jihadists to obtain guns in the U.S., saying: “This is a golden opportunity. America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms.” Given the ongoing violence on our border and the glaring loopholes in our gun trafficking laws, it’s time for Congress to drop its witch hunts and get serious. We cannot continue allowing weapons to end up in the wrong hands.

 

Maloney, a Democratic congresswoman, represents parts of Manhattan and Queens.

 

 

Drop the witch hunt?

 

I guess that means she is satisfied that those responsible for allowing weapons to end up in the wrong hands in Fast and Furious have been held accountable, or will be by Eric Holder's aggressive investigation. By my count, one lawyer (Burke) has resigned, and one whistleblower (Cefalu) has been placed on leave. No one got ten years in the clink or a quarter million dollar fine.

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A more thorough reply to Rep. Maloney's many lies

 

No detail is too small for her to get wrong, apparently.

 

Maloney also states that when Holder testified in May before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform "on which I sit" (as if she were there), he made that now infamous claim that he had only heard about Fast and Furious a few weeks before. There's a factual problem here. Holder didn't testify before that committee. He testified before the House Judiciary Committee, and Maloney doesn't sit on that one. This column was reminded about that by a sharp-eyed Congressional aide who is a regular reader.

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Wow. Just Wow.

 

"Remember a couple of weeks ago when it was reported that the indictment against one of Terry's alleged killers had been sealed?

 

Is this leaked information the reason it's being covered up?

 

Five illegal immigrants armed with at least two AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifles were hunting for U.S. Border Patrol agents near a desert watering hole known as Mesquite Seep just north of the Arizona-Mexico border when a firefight erupted and one U.S. agent was killed, records show.

The original article doesn't say why they were "hunting" Border Patrol agents, but the area where Terry was murdered is a drug-smuggling corridor, so it might have been a case of turf-protection.

 

And they were armed with AK-47s, courtesy of the US Government. "

 

http://www.ace.mu.nu/and

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/22/armed-illegals-stalked-border-patrol/

 

 

 

 

 

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True, MikeG. But it is still against our laws to sell to known felons and allow those illegally purchased weapons to be smuggled across the border into Mexico. TheMexican government would probably like a say inwhat comes into their country - you know, at least tell me that you'll still respect me in themorning, etc etc etc.

 

The suspicion that this was done or approved by highly placed officials of the present administration to ensure crimes and chaos attributable to American-sourced weapons as a means of ginning up support for a push against the Second Amaendment is _very_troubling

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I can appreciate that if it's against our laws, then it shouldn't be done.

Isn't it somewhat similar to an agent selling or buying drugs from somebody, with the hopes that it will lead to the bigger fish?

Don't we do that all the time? I'm also assuming that we do it across the border as well, though I might be mistaken. I kind of assumed we deal with cartels in an undercover fashion, infiltrating them in order to get to their command structure to break them from the top down.

Seems like a nasty business, but if it's a derivative of what's already being done with different objects, then while we can look at the techniques and criticize them in their execution, we can't be surprised that it's happening at all.

If it's being done to sway public opinion regarding guns/assault-rifles/etc, then it's a cheap shot, so to speak.

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Isn't it somewhat similar to an agent selling or buying drugs from somebody, with the hopes that it will lead to the bigger fish?

Don't we do that all the time?

 

That's not what ATF Agent Canino said...

 

Excerpt from the latest committee report:

 

As more information came to light, however, Gil and Canino concluded that hundreds and

hundreds of guns had been walked. These guns ended up in at crime scenes in Mexico, about

which Gil and Canino received extensive briefings. Gil and Canino became incensed when they

finally began to learn about the full scope of Operation Fast and Furious and the investigative

techniques involved:

 

Q. When you first got the impression that this was part of a strategy to

let guns walk into Mexico, what was your reaction to that strategy?

 

A. I wasn't convinced that this happened until this past April after all

the allegations were made, and I talked to different people. I was

beyond shocked. Embarrassed. I was angry. I'm still angry.

Because this is not what we do.

 

* * *

 

That is, I mean, this is the perfect storm of idiocy. That is the

only way I could put it. This is, I mean, this is inconceivable to

me. This is group think gone awry. You know what General

George Patton says, if we are all thinking alike, then nobody is

thinking. Right? Nobody was thinking here. How could anybody

think, hey, let's follow, I mean there is a guy in this case that

bought over 600 guns. At what point do you think you might want

to pull him aside and say, hey, come here for a second.137

 

When Canino himself uncovered hard evidence that ATF had allowed the guns to disappear from

their surveillance he understood the whistleblower allegations were true:

 

Q. Okay, and take us through what happened in April.

 

A. I was here on a visit to headquarters.

 

Q. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters?

 

A. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters, and I was, I was

looking at a, the management log on this case. And the first two

pages, if I'm not mistaken, there are entries there that

chronicle us walking away on three separate occasions from

stash houses.

 

Q. And did that sound to you incredible?

 

A. I stopped reading.

 

Q. So you only got through two pages of this management log?

 

A. Yeah.

 

Q. And then you couldn't read it any longer?

 

A. Didn't want to.

 

Q. Because you were so upset?

 

A. Yes.

 

Q. And you were upset because walking away from three stash houses

struck you as so outrageous?

 

A. Walking away from one, walking away from one gun when you

know that that gun is going to be used in a crime when you, I

mean, there is no, there was no gray area here guys. There was

no gray area here. We knew that these guys were trafficking

guns into Mexico. There is no gray area. They weren't

trafficking, [the] guys weren't going out and buying two Larson 22

pistols. These guys were buying 7.62, 223's, .50 caliber rifles,

okay, there was no mistake about this. This is no gray area.

 

Is walking away from stash houses tracking guns, or were the agents who were ordered to walk away from those houses being ordered not to track the guns any more, wabbit? OK, so I have a cricket addiction. ;)

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More on the now-sealed murder case against Manuel Osorio-Arellanes in the death of Brian Terry

 

The comments from the guy from the Border Patrol agents' union were interesting. I wonder who is lying about the beanbag rounds?

 

Five illegal immigrants armed with at least two AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifles were hunting for U.S. Border Patrol agents near a desert watering hole known as Mesquite Seep just north of the Arizona-Mexico border when a firefight erupted and one U.S. agent was killed, records show.

 

A now-sealed federal grand jury indictment in the death of Border Patrol agent Brian A. Terry says the Mexican nationals were "patrolling" the rugged desert area of Peck Canyon at about 11:15 p.m. on Dec. 14 with the intent to "intentionally and forcibly assault" Border Patrol agents.

 

At least two of the Mexicans carried their assault rifles "at the ready position," one of several details about the attack showing that Mexican smugglers are becoming more aggressive on the U.S. side of the border.

 

According to the indictment, the Mexicans were "patrolling the area in single-file formation" a dozen miles northwest of the border town of Nogales and — in the darkness of the Arizona night — opened fire on four Border Patrol agents after the agents identified themselves in Spanish as police officers.

 

Two AK-47 assault rifles found at the scene came from the failed Fast and Furious operation.

 

Using thermal binoculars, one of the agents determined that at least two of the Mexicans were carrying rifles, but according to an affidavit in the case by FBI agent Scott Hunter, when the Mexicans did not drop their weapons as ordered, two agents used their shotguns to fire "less than lethal" beanbags at them.

 

At least one of the Mexicans opened fire and, according to the affidavit, Terry, a 40-year-old former U.S. Marine, was shot in the back. A Border Patrol shooting-incident report said that Terry called out, "I'm hit," and then fell to the ground, a bullet having pierced his aorta. "I can't feel my legs," Terry told one of the agents who cradled him. "I think I'm paralyzed."

 

Bleeding profusely, he died at the scene.

 

After the initial shots, two agents returned fire, hitting Manuel Osorio-Arellanes, 33, in the abdomen and leg. The others fled. The FBI affidavit said Osorio-Arellanes admitted during an interview that all five of the Mexicans were armed.

 

Peck Canyon is a notorious drug-smuggling corridor.

 

Osorio-Arellanes initially was charged with illegal entry, but that case was dismissed when the indictment was handed up. It named Osorio-Arellanes on a charge of second-degree murder, but did not identify him as the likely shooter, saying only that Osorio-Arellanes and others whose names were blacked out "did unlawfully kill with malice aforethought United States Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry while Agent Terry was engaged in ... his official duties."

 

The indictment also noted that Osorio-Arellanes had been convicted in Phoenix in 2006 of felony aggravated assault, had been detained twice in 2010 as an illegal immigrant, and had been returned to Mexico repeatedly.

 

Bill Brooks, U.S. Customs and Border Protection's acting southwest border field branch chief, referred inquiries to the FBI, which is conducting the investigation. The FBI declined to comment.

 

The case against Osorio-Arellanes and others involved in the shooting has since been sealed, meaning that neither the public nor the media has access to any evidence, filings, rulings or arguments.

 

The U.S. attorney's office in San Diego, which is prosecuting the case, would confirm only that it was sealed. Also sealed was the judge's reason for sealing the case.

 

The indictment lists the names of other suspects in the shooting, but they are redacted.

 

In the Terry killing, two Romanian-built AK-47 assault rifles found at the scene were identified as having been purchased in a Glendale, Ariz., gun shop as part of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' (ATF) failed Fast and Furious investigation.

 

A number of rank-and-file Border Patrol agents have questioned why the case has not gone to trial, nearly a year after Terry's killing. Several also have concerns about the lack of transparency in the investigation, compounded now by the fact that the court case has been sealed.

 

Shawn P. Moran, vice president of the National Border Patrol Council, which represents all 17,000 nonsupervisory agents, said it is rare for illegal immigrants or drug smugglers to engage agents in the desert, saying they usually "drop their loads and take off south."

 

"The Brian Terry murder was a real wake-up call," Mr. Moran said. "It emphasizes the failed state of security on the U.S. border, which poses more of a threat to us than either Iraq or Afghanistan. We have terrorism going on right on the other side of the fence, and we're arming the drug cartels.

 

"My biggest fear is that someday a cartel member is going to go berserk, stick a rifle through the fence and kill as many Border Patrol agents as he can," he said.

 

Mr. Moran said he understood the "rationale of working things up the food chain," as suggested in the Fast and Furious probe, but had no idea how ATF planned to arrest cartel members who ultimately purchased the weapons since the agency lacks jurisdiction south of the border and never advised Mexican authorities about the operation.

 

"It was a ridiculous idea from the beginning, and it baffles us on how it was ever approved," he said.

 

Mr. Moran also challenged the use of less-than-lethal beanbags in the shooting incident, saying field agents have been "strong-armed" by the agency's leadership to use nonlethal weapons. He said they were not appropriate for the incident in which Terry was killed.

 

"That was no place for beanbag rounds," he said, noting that the encounter was at least 12 miles inside the U.S. and was carried out by armed men looking specifically to target Border Patrol agents.

 

CBP has said Terry and the agents with him carried fully loaded sidearms, along with two additional magazines, and were not under orders to use nonlethal ammunition first.

 

Mr. Moran, himself a veteran Border Patrol agent, said he also was "surprised" that the suspected Mexican gunmen were carrying their weapons at the ready position, meaning that the butts of the weapons were placed firmly in the pocket of the shoulder with the barrels pointed down at a 45-degree angle. He said this probably meant they had some level of military training.

 

More than 250 incursions by Mexican military personnel into the United States have been documented over the past several years.

 

The Border Patrol has warned agents in Arizona that many of the intruders were "trained to escape, evade and counter-ambush" if detected. The agency cautioned agents to keep "a low profile," to use "cover and concealment" in approaching the Mexican units, to employ "shadows and camouflage" to conceal themselves and to "stay as quiet as possible."

 

Several of the incursions occurred in the same area where Terry was killed, including a 2005 incident in which two agents were shot and wounded by assailants dressed in black commando-type clothing in what law-enforcement authorities said was a planned ambush. More than 50 rounds were fired at the agents after they spotted the suspected gunmen.

 

Many of the Mexican drug cartels use former Mexican soldiers, police and federal agents to protect drug loads headed into the U.S. Many cartel leaders also have targeted U.S. Border Patrol agents and state and local police, sometimes offering bounties of up to $50,000.

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U.S. Seals Court Records Of Border Patrol's Murder

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/nov/u-s-seals-court-records-border-patrol-s-murder

The Obama Administration has abruptly sealed court records containing alarming details of how Mexican drug smugglers murdered a U.S. Border patrol agent with a gun connected to a failed federal experiment that allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico.

This means information will now be kept from the public as well as the media. Could this be a cover-up on the part of the "most transparent" administration in history? After all, the rifle used to kill the federal agent (Brian Terry) last December in Arizona's Peck Canyon was part of the now infamous Operation Fast and Furious. Conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the disastrous scheme allowed guns to be smuggled into Mexico so they could eventually be traced to drug cartels.

 

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interesting development:

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Justice Department on Friday provided Congress with documents detailing how department officials gave inaccurate information to a U.S. senator in the controversy surrounding Operation Fast and Furious, the flawed law enforcement initiative aimed at dismantling major arms trafficking networks on the Southwest border.

http://news.yahoo.com/justice-dept-details-got-statements-wrong-215322145.html

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interesting development:

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Justice Department on Friday provided Congress with documents detailing how department officials gave inaccurate information to a U.S. senator in the controversy surrounding Operation Fast and Furious, the flawed law enforcement initiative aimed at dismantling major arms trafficking networks on the Southwest border.

http://news.yahoo.co...-215322145.html

 

Wow, some actual information leaked out! How did that happen? ;)

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I could pick some nits in it, but this is a pretty good summary of the gunwalking scandal so far.

Great synopis, thanks.

 

I have conflicting emotions about the deeper issues surrounding this though, especially as an avid gun owner and fan of "assault rifles". I hate the idea of placing limits on purchases - but 1 buyer bought 720 assault rifles??? Really, is there no balance to be found here? The trick is where draw the line so that you hamper criminal access without unduly impeding legitimate citizen rights.

 

And I really don't have a problem with really strong penalties for straw purchasers. If the penalties are too light to provide deterrence - then beef those up.

 

 

Several individuals bought hundreds of guns, but that was only possible because the nervous gun dealers were assured that the government was watching them and that it was OK. All that would have been necessary to impede criminal access without hampering citizens' rights would be for the government to obey the law, but that is seen as an unbalanced view. :rolleyes:

 

The actual penalties for straw buying are quite harsh, but virtually no one really receives them. That's because straw buyers are like street level drug dealers, but with no criminal record. They're small fry, easily replaced, hard to convict, possibly sympathetic to jurors, and generally putting one in prison for ten years (if it ever happened) would do little to stop his employer.

 

OK, so mandatory minimums to force him to turn in his employer. A bigger stick. The problem here is, remember who his employer is? A guy who WILL kill him. Who has the bigger stick again?

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Where are they now?

 

Here's what has happened to the managers of the operation:

 

-- Acting ATF Chief Ken Melson, who oversaw the operation, is now an adviser in the Office of Legal Affairs. He remains in ATF's Washington, D.C., headquarters.

 

-- Acting Deputy Director Billy Hoover, who knew his agency was walking guns and demanded an "exit strategy" just five months into the program, is now the special agent in charge of the D.C. office. He, too, did not have to relocate.

 

-- Deputy Director for Field Operations William McMahon received detailed briefings about the illegal operation and later admitted he shares "responsibility for mistakes that were made.” Yet, he also stays in D.C., ironically as the No. 2 man at the ATF's Office of Internal Affairs.

 

-- Special Agent in Charge of Phoenix Bill Newell, the man most responsible for directly overseeing Fast and Furious, was promoted to the Office of Management in Washington.

 

-- Phoenix Deputy Chief George Gillette was also promoted to Washington as ATF's liaison to the U.S. Marshal's Service.

 

-- Group Supervisor David Voth managed Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis and repeatedly stopped field agents from interdicting weapons headed to the border, according to congressional testimony. ATF boosted Voth to chief of the ATF Tobacco Division, where he now supervises more employees in Washington than he ever did in Phoenix.

 

An ATF spokesman in Washington says the key players did not receive promotions, but transfers.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

So what happened to Dodson and the other whistleblowers?

 

"The only people who have been damaged from Fast and Furious, short of the obvious victims, are the people who tried to tell truth and blew the whistle," Dobyns said.

 

Dodson was told he was toxic and could no longer work in Phoenix. With sole custody of two teenagers and under water on his house mortgage, Dodson found himself with no place to be and nowhere to go.

 

A supervisor suggested he'd be treated fairly at an office in South Carolina. Wanting to keep his job, protect his pension and pay the mortgage, Dodson had no other choice. He and his family now live in a small apartment, facing financial troubles, still labeled persona non grata by the very agency he carries a badge for, and regularly assaulted by leaks from "ATF sources at headquarters."

 

Dodson has tried to remain out of the public eye, has not filed suit and says only that he wishes to return to his work as an ATF agent.

 

As for the others:

 

-- Agent Larry Alt took a transfer to Florida and has unresolved retaliation claims against the ATF.

 

-- Agent Pete Forcelli was demoted to a desk job. Forcelli is a respected investigator, with years as a detective with the New York City Police Department. He has requested an internal investigation to address the retaliation against him.

 

-- Agent James Casa also took a transfer to Florida.

 

-- Agent Carlos Canino, once the deputy attache in Mexico City, was moved to Tucson.

 

-- Agent Jose Wall, formerly assigned to Tijuana, was moved to Phoenix.

 

-- Agent Darren Gil, formerly the attache to Mexico, retired.

 

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If you look back at some of the links in this thread, they talk about the interactions between ATF and DOJ officials and gun store owners. The owners were very nervous about making obviously illegal straw sales, and the government officials assured them that everything was under control and they should proceed with the sales. One agent, Hope McCallister, appeared to know when the straw buyers would be coming, how much money they would have, and what they would want. She may have been talking to the FBI to learn that info.

 

In any case, the straw sales were obviously illegal for a number of reasons:

 

1. They were made by people who seemed very unlikely to have the money for such guns.

 

2. They were paid for in cash.

 

3. While it is legal to own multiple copies of the same make/model of gun, having hundreds strains credibility. It's a bit like having an 18 wheeler load of marijuana for personal use. After you have your first few dozen identical AK variants, most people will slack off or maybe buy something else. ;)

 

Straw buying is a crime of intent, and intent is difficult to prove. That's why they are hard to convict. But these "customers" practically had big, neon signs saying STRAW BUYER in huge letters blinking on their heads. That makes the sales illegal. The dealers knew that, so they were nervous.

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Issa has taken an interest in the NY Times report that the DEA is laundering money for Mexican cartels.

 

 

Oversight Committee Release

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. – House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., today announced an investigation into the Drug Enforcement Agency's alleged laundering of millions of dollars in Mexican drug cartel money. The New York Times reported that the DEA employed similar tactics with money laundering as were seen in ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, where guns were allowed into the hands of low level straw purchasers in hopes that they would lead to drug kingpins.

 

In today's letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, Chairman Issa states "The existence of such a program again calls your leadership into question. The managerial structure you have implemented lacks appropriate operational safeguards to prevent the implementation of such dangerous schemes. The consequences have been disastrous."

 

This news comes as Attorney General Holder is scheduled to appear before the House Judiciary Committee this Thursday to testify on Operation Fast and Furious.

 

Read the letter to Attorney General Holder here.

 

 

I said in the other thread that this one is not Obama's fault, and by extension, not Holder's either. We're continuing Nixon's policy here, and virtually every politician has supported it.

 

Life as a Mexican drug kingpin must be interesting. Get up in the morning, make sure the DEA guy who launders your money has wired it into your account. Arrange with the FBI guy who buys your guns to get some more, which the ATF ensures will be sold to the straw buyers.

 

9781878346650.jpg

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Issa has taken an interest in the NY Times report that the DEA is laundering money for Mexican cartels.

 

 

Oversight Committee Release

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. – House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., today announced an investigation into the Drug Enforcement Agency's alleged laundering of millions of dollars in Mexican drug cartel money. The New York Times reported that the DEA employed similar tactics with money laundering as were seen in ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, where guns were allowed into the hands of low level straw purchasers in hopes that they would lead to drug kingpins.

 

In today's letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, Chairman Issa states "The existence of such a program again calls your leadership into question. The managerial structure you have implemented lacks appropriate operational safeguards to prevent the implementation of such dangerous schemes. The consequences have been disastrous."

 

This news comes as Attorney General Holder is scheduled to appear before the House Judiciary Committee this Thursday to testify on Operation Fast and Furious.

 

Read the letter to Attorney General Holder here.

 

 

I said in the other thread that this one is not Obama's fault, and by extension, not Holder's either. We're continuing Nixon's policy here, and virtually every politician has supported it.

 

Life as a Mexican drug kingpin must be interesting. Get up in the morning, make sure the DEA guy who launders your money has wired it into your account. Arrange with the FBI guy who buys your guns to get some more, which the ATF ensures will be sold to the straw buyers.

 

9781878346650.jpg

 

The MSM was all over this last night.

 

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/06/video-sheriff-babeau-money-laundering-works/

 

It's worse than Fast and Furious.

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ATF Emails: Hey, Let's Use These Long-Gun Sales We've Demanded Gun Shop Owners Sell To Cartels To Justify Cracking Down on Long-Gun Sales

 

—Ace

"Smoking guns?"

 

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

 

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

 

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

 

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ATF Emails: Hey, Let's Use These Long-Gun Sales We've Demanded Gun Shop Owners Sell To Cartels To Justify Cracking Down on Long-Gun Sales

 

—Ace

"Smoking guns?"

 

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

 

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

 

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

 

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

 

 

 

 

Addendum: CBS seems to be confirming the worst here that, as suspected, the ATF was using Fast and Furious to make the case for more gun control. No small deal.

 

 

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NGS, you posted that email last July.

 

 

The MSM was all over this last night.

 

http://ac360.blogs.c...undering-works/

 

It's worse than Fast and Furious.

 

I started a thread about it and nobody came. ;)

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Meanwhile, back to current news on gunwalking...

 

Grassley calls for Breuer to go

 

The Justice Department denied in a letter to me on Feb. 4, 2011, that ATF had ever walked guns. Mr. Breuer had been consulted in the drafting of that erroneous letter,” Mr. Grassley said. “On May 2, 2011, rather than acknowledging the increasingly obvious facts and apologizing for its February letter, the Justice Department reiterated its denial....

 

But Mr. Grassley said that while the Justice Department publicly denied to Congress that ATF would ever walk guns, Mr. Breuer knew otherwise and said nothing. He said Mr. Breuer knew the same ATF field division was responsible for walking guns in 2006 as part of Wide Receiver....

 

“But what about bringing it to the attention of Congress? He didn’t even step forward to express his regret until emails that detailed his knowledge were about to be produced under congressional subpoena,” Mr. Grassley said. “It is astounding that it took the public controversy over Fast and Furious to help the chief of the Criminal Division realize that walking guns is unacceptable.”

 

Mr. Grassley said Mr. Breuer had nine months after the Feb. 4 letter to correct the record and 18 months after learning of gunwalking in Wide Receiver to put a stop to it, but he failed to do so.

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NGS, you posted that email last July.

 

 

The MSM was all over this last night.

 

http://ac360.blogs.c...undering-works/

 

It's worse than Fast and Furious.

 

I started a thread about it and nobody came. ;)

 

This was a dry fuck. Right off the bat, there's Anderson Cooper trotting out a DEA agent and a Arizona-Tea-Party-I'm-Running-For-Office-Sheriff talking about how this program is nothing like Fast and Furious, and is a heck of a great thing to do to boot. As a means to get Obama impeached, it's not even on the same playing field with F & F.

 

Much, much worse.

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Holder and other democrats using the occasion to argue for more gun control, specifically over long guns.

 

I thought the idea that this program was going to be used to call for more gun control was just a conspiracy theory! :lol:

 

Meanwhile, CBS News reports on where the cartels really get their American made guns, and it's not from gun dealers. They go to the Mexican military to get them, and the Mexican military goes directly to our manufacturers, not through retailers.

 

US Manufacturer Gun Sales Arming Mexican Cartels

 

Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.

 

And it did approve 2,476 guns to be sold to Mexico in 2006. In 2009, that number was up nearly 10 times, to 18,709. The State Department has since stopped disclosing numbers of guns it approves, and wouldn't give CBS News figures for 2010 or 2011.

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26 percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Mexico is now one of the world's largest purchasers of U.S. guns through direct commercial sales, beating out countries like Iraq.

 

 

In yesterday's hearings, Issa found it suspicious that no one ever emailed Eric Holder anything about Fast and Furious. I do too.

 

This exchange between Holder and Sensenbrenner would have been funny if it were Saturday Night Live instead of CSPAN.

 

 

Holder: Nobody in the Justice Department has lied.

 

Sensenbrenner: Why was the letter withdrawn?

 

Holder: The letter was withdrawn because it had information in there that was...ah...inaccurate.

 

(This is regarding the letter of February 4th in which the DOJ denied that the ATF would ever walk guns. That letter took 3 days to draft, prompting one complaint from a staffer that it was harder to get done than the Magna Carta. Apparently, no one thought to question the agents actually making the allegations that the letter was refuting during those three days. At that time, only Republican gun nuts being controlled by the NRA were listening to those agents. ;))

 

CNN still has no idea what the whole scandal is about

 

Operation Fast and Furious, which started in 2009, allowed illegally purchased firearms to be taken from gun stores in Arizona across the Mexican border to drug cartels. The intent of the operation was to monitor the flow of weapons to their ultimate destination. However, hundreds of weapons were lost or unaccounted for, and a storm of outrage erupted when two of the missing weapons were found at a site where Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in December 2010.

 

 

There is no evidence of that intent, and plenty of evidence that was never the intent. If that had been the intent, someone in Mexico would have been told that the guns were coming and the agents would have been ordered to stay with the guns, not the straw buyers, during surveillance.

 

The guns were not "lost" and they all remained unaccounted for until they turned up at a crime scene, at which point ATF supervisors were "jubilant" that their plan was "working."

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Holder and other democrats using the occasion to argue for more gun control, specifically over long guns.

 

I thought the idea that this program was going to be used to call for more gun control was just a conspiracy theory! :lol:

 

Meanwhile, CBS News reports on where the cartels really get their American made guns, and it's not from gun dealers. They go to the Mexican military to get them, and the Mexican military goes directly to our manufacturers, not through retailers.

 

US Manufacturer Gun Sales Arming Mexican Cartels

 

Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.

 

And it did approve 2,476 guns to be sold to Mexico in 2006. In 2009, that number was up nearly 10 times, to 18,709. The State Department has since stopped disclosing numbers of guns it approves, and wouldn't give CBS News figures for 2010 or 2011.

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26 percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Mexico is now one of the world's largest purchasers of U.S. guns through direct commercial sales, beating out countries like Iraq.

 

 

In yesterday's hearings, Issa found it suspicious that no one ever emailed Eric Holder anything about Fast and Furious. I do too.

 

This exchange between Holder and Sensenbrenner would have been funny if it were Saturday Night Live instead of CSPAN.

 

 

Holder: Nobody in the Justice Department has lied.

 

Sensenbrenner: Why was the letter withdrawn?

 

Holder: The letter was withdrawn because it had information in there that was...ah...inaccurate.

 

(This is regarding the letter of February 4th in which the DOJ denied that the ATF would ever walk guns. That letter took 3 days to draft, prompting one complaint from a staffer that it was harder to get done than the Magna Carta. Apparently, no one thought to question the agents actually making the allegations that the letter was refuting during those three days. At that time, only Republican gun nuts being controlled by the NRA were listening to those agents. ;))

 

CNN still has no idea what the whole scandal is about

 

Operation Fast and Furious, which started in 2009, allowed illegally purchased firearms to be taken from gun stores in Arizona across the Mexican border to drug cartels. The intent of the operation was to monitor the flow of weapons to their ultimate destination. However, hundreds of weapons were lost or unaccounted for, and a storm of outrage erupted when two of the missing weapons were found at a site where Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in December 2010.

 

 

There is no evidence of that intent, and plenty of evidence that was never the intent. If that had been the intent, someone in Mexico would have been told that the guns were coming and the agents would have been ordered to stay with the guns, not the straw buyers, during surveillance.

 

The guns were not "lost" and they all remained unaccounted for until they turned up at a crime scene, at which point ATF supervisors were "jubilant" that their plan was "working."

 

The Mexican government is as crooked as a dogs hind leg. There is nothing shocking about not telling them about it.

 

The funny part of the hearing yesterday was Issa dragging out a whole chorus of people with boxes and signs for his 5 minutes. Wouldn't let Holder say 5 words without interrupting him, and then saying Holder was "filibustering" Issa's time.

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Holder and other democrats using the occasion to argue for more gun control, specifically over long guns.

 

I thought the idea that this program was going to be used to call for more gun control was just a conspiracy theory! :lol:

 

Meanwhile, CBS News reports on where the cartels really get their American made guns, and it's not from gun dealers. They go to the Mexican military to get them, and the Mexican military goes directly to our manufacturers, not through retailers.

 

US Manufacturer Gun Sales Arming Mexican Cartels

 

Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.

 

And it did approve 2,476 guns to be sold to Mexico in 2006. In 2009, that number was up nearly 10 times, to 18,709. The State Department has since stopped disclosing numbers of guns it approves, and wouldn't give CBS News figures for 2010 or 2011.

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26 percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Mexico is now one of the world's largest purchasers of U.S. guns through direct commercial sales, beating out countries like Iraq.

 

 

In yesterday's hearings, Issa found it suspicious that no one ever emailed Eric Holder anything about Fast and Furious. I do too.

 

This exchange between Holder and Sensenbrenner would have been funny if it were Saturday Night Live instead of CSPAN.

 

 

Holder: Nobody in the Justice Department has lied.

 

Sensenbrenner: Why was the letter withdrawn?

 

Holder: The letter was withdrawn because it had information in there that was...ah...inaccurate.

 

(This is regarding the letter of February 4th in which the DOJ denied that the ATF would ever walk guns. That letter took 3 days to draft, prompting one complaint from a staffer that it was harder to get done than the Magna Carta. Apparently, no one thought to question the agents actually making the allegations that the letter was refuting during those three days. At that time, only Republican gun nuts being controlled by the NRA were listening to those agents. ;))

 

CNN still has no idea what the whole scandal is about

 

Operation Fast and Furious, which started in 2009, allowed illegally purchased firearms to be taken from gun stores in Arizona across the Mexican border to drug cartels. The intent of the operation was to monitor the flow of weapons to their ultimate destination. However, hundreds of weapons were lost or unaccounted for, and a storm of outrage erupted when two of the missing weapons were found at a site where Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in December 2010.

 

 

There is no evidence of that intent, and plenty of evidence that was never the intent. If that had been the intent, someone in Mexico would have been told that the guns were coming and the agents would have been ordered to stay with the guns, not the straw buyers, during surveillance.

 

The guns were not "lost" and they all remained unaccounted for until they turned up at a crime scene, at which point ATF supervisors were "jubilant" that their plan was "working."

That youtube clip is a classic. No need to go back to Nixon to remind Holder the consequences of lying to congress, how about Scotter Libby the "Gee it depends on your state of mind" when you submit "inaccuracies to the Feds" didn't work for him

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