Jump to content

Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation


Recommended Posts

The invocation of 'executive privilege' in this matter is extraordinary. It brings the wtihholding of evidence by Holder's DoJ right up there with investigations into Watergate, Lewinsky, Rove, and other unsavory and generally illegal actions of high goverment officials.

 

I like this statement, a lot, as I believe the investigative needs of the legislative are more important than the secrecy needs of the executive.

 

Justice Anthony Kennedy noted "Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953)."Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive’s Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive’s claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible.

You need to chide the author of that for lumping Rove into the mix. He did nothing wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 2.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It's Judge Jackson or Judge Berman Jackson. It isn't Judge Berman unless you're watching reality court TV at the laundromat. Actually, I did mean only those documents. Again, the Kenyan’s EP was

Maybe he'll be nicer now that his period is over.

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under

Posted Images

 

While I can personally point to nothing concrete, and have no cites, I can easily imagine that this activity may be related to other ongoing operations. If disclosing the requested information would impede those other operations, I would support the currently unpopular decision to invoke executive privilege. I'm not saying that this is what's going on here - but, it is plausible.

 

As I've said earlier - even though we have an "open society" - there is knowledge that carries with it a great deal of responsibility, and unless one is able to accept both, they shouldn't have access to either.

 

 

I can't see any operation related to F&F that should still be ongoing. If there is discussion in the 'privileged' documents of agents by name, as one examplre, the name could be redacted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberals in general are not up to speed on F&F as the do not watch Fox new. Fox mews has been covering F&F since the death of the border agent. The rest of the media have been ignoring Fast and Furious.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Criminal vagueness.

 

The trouble is that you've got Darrell Issa (!) running a Whitewater style investigation about a program which got started in 2006 by the Bush Administration. And now you'll end up with a party line vote of contempt.

 

Knock yourself out.

 

The program under investigation is Fast and Furious, an Obama-era part of Project Gunrunner. A major complaint of the minority on the committee is that it has NOT focused on Operation Wide Receiver, a Bush-era part of Project Gunrunner.

 

The current focus of the investigation is on the coverup phase, when the DOJ was lying to Congress and saying the ATF did not walk guns. There is no precedent for this coverup from the previous administration.

 

Facts have a conservative bias. ;)

Yes, the current focus of the Republican investigation is of the current Democratic Administration.

 

Coverup? Was Wide Receiver even disclosed to Congress? Mukasey claims he didn't know so how would Congress have known?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bush program was much different. Guns were sold and followed so they could catch the intended user and the Mexican government was informed. The Obama program let the guns walk and made no attempt to follow. Worse yet the Mexican government was not informed. This is why there were whistleblowers. Again, the got some catching up to do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the current focus of the Republican investigation is of the current Democratic Administration.

 

Coverup? Was Wide Receiver even disclosed to Congress? Mukasey claims he didn't know so how would Congress have known?

 

Go back to October of 2011 and start learning the answers.

 

More gunwalking, this time Operation Wide Receiver, which is being put forth as a previous example of the gunwalking tactic.

 

Similar, but different...

 

 

Some firearms in Wide Receive were equipped with RFID tracking devices. In Wide Receiver, it seems the illegal purchasers seemed more than slightly knowledgeable of the way the ATF and how to take their aerial and electronic tracking procedures down.

 

Knowing the time aloft numbers for virtually all planes used in government surveillance, the buyers had a simple method of getting their purchases across the border undetected. They simply drove four-hour loops around the area.

 

As surveillance planes were forced to return to base for re-fueling, the smugglers simply turned and sprinted their cargo across the border.

 

The RFID tags also turned out to be problematic.

 

Rather than making large enough holes for the tags to be laid out inside weapons, agents force-fit them into the rifles.

 

That cramming caused the antennae to be folded, reducing the effective range of the tags. And an already short battery life (36-48 hours maximum) meant that should purchasers allow the firearms to sit, the tracking devices eliminated themselves.

 

This sounds like something out of "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" but it's not.

 

Hmm... That didn't work too well and those tracking devices are pretty worthless, so the obvious thing to do is try the program again, but without the tracking component. :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites

ABC reports on gunwalking during the Bush administration:

 

The documents show that the special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix office, William Newell, was involved in a 2007 incident that resulted in guns slipping into Mexico and, later, part of Fast and Furious. Newell was the special agent in charge of the Phoenix office until earlier this year.

 

The incident arose on Sept. 27, 2007, when ATF agents were conducting surveillance on subjects under investigation for gun trafficking and they hoped to work with the Mexican government to interdict them. The emails' existence was first reported by The Associated Press Friday night.

 

Confusion over the incident came to the attention of ATF headquarters from Carson Carroll, who was then the deputy assistant director for the Office of Field Operations.

 

"ATF agents observed this vehicle [carrying guns] commit to the border and reach the Mexican side until it could no longer be seen," Carroll wrote in a Sept. 28, 2007 email. "We, the ATF … did not get a response from the Mexican side until 20 minutes later, who then informed us that they did not see the vehicle cross. For the first time we are working hand in hand with the GOM [Government of Mexico] and providing them with what they want and this is what we get!"

 

The following day, ATF Acting Director for Field Operation William Hoover was demanding information on the strategy.

 

"Have we discussed the strategy with the U.S. Attorney's Office re letting the guns walk? Do we have this approval in writing? Have we discussed and thought thru the consequences of same?" Hoover wrote to Newell and Carroll. "Are we tracking south of the border? Same re U.S. Attorney's Office. Did we find out why they missed the hand-off of the vehicle? What are the expected outcomes?

 

"I do not want any firearms to go south until further notice," Hoover wrote on Oct 5. "I expect a full briefing paper on my desk Tuesday morning from SAC Newell with every question answered."

 

On Oct. 6, 2007, Newell wrote in an email, "I'm so frustrated with this whole mess I'm shutting the case down and any further attempts to do something similar. We're done trying to pursue new and innovative initiatives – it's not worth the hassle."

 

Newell testified earlier this year about his role in Fast and Furious and acknowledged mistakes.

 

 

OK, then. Newell got so frustrated with the innovation of gunwalking back in 2007 that he quit doing it. Naturally, anyone who does something that stupid gets promoted, so he decided to go back to gunwalking a couple of years later. Now he has acknowledged mistakes. The thing to do is promote him again and then act surprised when the same thing happens again.

 

Newell still works for the government...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this on the Daily Kos, I look forward to your comments Tom:

 

 

The Merida Initiative is the, and was the, basis for the 2008 HR-6028 Bill which specifically funded "Project Gunrunner." Darrell Issa pretends he has never heard of Project Gunrunner, yet in 2008 he specifically voted to fund Project Gunrunner.

 

Apparently, there is more than just a huge connection between Merida Initiative and Project Gunrunner whereby Project Gunrunner funding, per HR-6028, is directly enveloped into the Merida Initiative.

 

In October 2007, President Bush and President announced the Mérida Initiative, is a Billions of dollar aid package to support Mexico's President Calderón's war on drugs by, among other things, sending military grade weapons and helicopters to Mexico. Project Gunrunner was Legislated into the Merida Initiative through HR-6028 in 2008. After ample Congressional debate on conditionality and appropriations, the US Congress approved the initiative in HR-6028 without any strings attached.

 

IMPORTANT FACTS:

 

1) Rep. Darrell Issa voted
specifically to Fund:
"Project Gunrunner"
in June 2008. 2) In January 2008: ATF went to Congress and asked Congress to Fund
Project Gunrunner
for 3 years.

 

3) In 2008, HR-6028 combined
"Project Gunrunner"
with the
"Merida Initiative"
also known as the
"Merida Program."

 

4) The
of the Bill HR-6028 is:

Assistance for Mexico and Central America for Anti-Drug Programs (Merida Program)

 

5) A SubSection of the Bill HR-6028 is Titled:
PROJECT GUNRUNNER INITIATIVE

 

6) Among other things, Project Gunrunner is directly funded through Merida Initiative

 

7) In 2007 the Congress held hearings on Merida Initiative

 

8) Merida Initiative is complicated because it is an initiative that crosses through: Homeland Security, Secretary of State, ATF, FBI & DoJ.

 

Merida is kind of like an octopus as Merida has many tentacles that go through many different areas of US security departments. The notion that Darrell Issa had never heard of Project Gunrunner is bullsh!t since Issa voted "yes" to specifically fund Project Gunrunner in 2008.

 

 

 

 

The 2007 Merida Initiative, along with Project Gunrunner, signed into law by President Bush in June 2008, not only allowed guns to walk into Mexico but also provided for America to send all kinds of military grade weapons, helicopters & training to and for Mexico.

 

 

JANUARY 2008:

ATF ASKS CONGRESS TO FUND PROJECT GUNRUNNER FOR 3 YEARS

 

On January 16, 2008, William Hoover at the ATF briefed the House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Relations and stated Project Gunrunner a.k.a. "Merida initiative" was to be funded between 2008-2010

 

 

ATF Expands Efforts to Combat Illegal Flow of Firearms Into Mexico The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives(ATF) plans to add additional staff members, including 35 special agents and 15 industry operations investigators, to the southwest border and deploy
eTrace technology
in nine U.S. consulates in Mexico
in an effort to stem the illegal flow of firearms to Mexico
as part of
Project Gunrunner
ATF Acting Director Michael J. Sullivan and Director ArthurDoty of the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) today announced.

 

ATF is also part of the Administration's recently announced
"Merida initiative."
This initiative is a comprehensive U.S. strategy to address drug smuggling, firearms trafficking, and increasing violence in Mexico and Central America.

 

To address the overwhelming increase of violence and firearms trafficking along the Southwest border
ATF has initiated "Project Gunrunner"
, a comprehensive strategy that incorporates ATF's expertise and resources to attack the problem both domestically and internationally.

 

I would like to conclude by again stating that
ATF has developed and is actively implementing our "Project Gunrunner" initiative which is modeled upon our border successes over the years,
and that is designed to actively disrupt, deter and dismantle the criminal enterprises and infrastructures seeking to ensure a continued and viable supply of U.S. sourced firearms for criminal purposes to Mexico, but which
is also designed to address and eliminate the actual sources of the firearms and ammunition
that have become so readily available for criminal purposes in both Mexico and in the U.S.

 

~Assistant ATF Director William Hoover to Congress in January 2008

 

DECEMBER 2007:

CONGRESSIONAL ACTIONS ON MERIDA INITIATIVE & PROJECT GUNRUNNER

In December 2007, Congress held meetings meetings to debate and discuss funding for the Merida Initiative:

The legislative process to pass the authorization of the Merida Initiative began after President Bush submitted his supplemental request of $45.9 billion to the U.S. Congress on October 22, 2007. ~Sen Dick Lugar; December 21, 2007

 

HR-6028 Bill Language JUNE 2008:

On June 10 2008, Rep. Darrell Issa Voted "YES" to Fund Project Gunrunner via HR 6028.

 

2008: HR 6028

Assistance for Mexico and Central America for AntiDrug Programs (Merida Program)

Bill Passed - House (311 - 106) Yea

Title 1: SEC. 101. FINDINGS

Congress finds the following:

(9) On October 22,
2007
, the United States and Mexico issued a joint statement announcing the
Merida Initiative,
a program to fight illicit narcotics trafficking and criminal organizations throughout the Western Hemisphere.
SEC. 402
.
REDUCTION OF SOUTHBOUND FLOW OF ILLEGAL WEAPONS
.

a) Sense of Congress- It is the sense of Congress that--

(5) On January 16, 2008, ATF announced that it will add 25 special agents and 15 inspectors to their
Project Gunrunner
along the Southwest Border. And, the ATF Budget request for fiscal year 2009 includes funding for another 12 inspectors;

 

PROJECT GUNRUNNER INITIATIVE
.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—The Attorney General shall dedicate and expand the resources provided for the
Project Gunrunner initiative
(hereafter in this subsection referred to as the
''initiative''
) of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to identify, investigate, and prosecute individuals involved in the trafficking of firearms across the United States-Mexico border.

 

(2) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.—

To carry out this subsection, there are authorized to be appropriated to the Attorney General $9,500,000 for each of the
fiscal years 2008 through 2010
.

 

Notice in HR 6028 "Project Gunrunner" is dubbed "initiative" and then the Bill discusses "Mérida Initiative." The Mérida Initiative and Project Gunrunner were President George Bush's brainchildren that Congress: debated, passed and was signed into law

... and yet Darrell Issa pretends he never heard a thing about Project Gunrunner. LACK OF OVERSIGHT ON MERIDA

One of the biggest problems with Meridia Initiative is that Congress passed it without mandating oversight on the progress of Merida. In June 2009, Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick wrote HR 3239 which would have mandated Homeland Security provide Congress with updates and progress of Merida --

 

 

HR 3239: Mandated Homeland Security report to Congress regarding the Merida Initiative's effects on: (1) border security; (2) border violence; (3) the illicit flow of arms, bulk cash, human trafficking and smuggling, and illegal narcotics across the U.S.-Mexico border; and (4) cooperation between DHS officials and agencies and their foreign counterparts participating in the Merida Initiative.
Defines "Merida Initiative" as the program announced by the United States and Mexico on October 22, 2007, to fight illicit narcotics trafficking and criminal organizations throughout the Western Hemisphere.

JUNE 2011:

In June 2011, Rep. Darrell Issa got pissed off when the Washington Post printed a story that Darrell Issa had been briefed on Project Gunrunner in 2010 and his staffer, Frederick Hill told the Daily Caller.

Hill said there was a briefing that Issa attended back in April 2010 on a similar subject.

"There were questions at the time about the number of U.S. weapons that were ending up at Mexican crime scenes," he said. "Basically, [it was about] the efforts of the ATF to stop cartels from doing this."

Did
gun walking
or Operation Fast and Furious come up at that briefing at all? Hill says "they certainly did not."

But wait Fred Hill! Your boss, Darrell Issa, Voted to FUND "Project Gunrunner" in 2008 -- where was his concern then? Was Darrell Issa in a coma in December 2007 when Congress was debating Merida?

 

Was Darrell Issa in a coma in January 2008 when ATF met with Congress to ask for funding specifically for Project Gunrunner?

 

Did Darrell Issa fail to read the Bill he signed that specifically talked about funding Project Gunrunner?

 

2006:

In 2006 the DEA and ATF had already launched similar 'projects' in their effort to reduce organized crime domestically and in foreign countries:

 

(2005) Foreign-deployed Advisory and Support Team (
FAST
), Electronic Trace Submission System, and

 

Operation BlackJack

 

Notice the term FAST was first used as an acronym in reducing gun smuggling and drug smuggling in 2005. The DEA first piloted FAST in Afghanistan and Iraq and then the AFT picked up FAST to use in the Southwest border and in Mexico. RECENT FRIGHTWING UPROAR OVER 2nd AMENDMENT:

In December 2007, the Mexican Armed Forced addressed the Second Amendment issue to Congress. The Secretaria de la Defense Nacional, Mexican Armed Forces official told Congress:

 

``the [Mexican] military does not want to be involved in law enforcement any more than it has to, but it has no choice, regular police cannot compete with Ak-47s and grenade launchers.
We understand your Second Amendment,
but along the border states thousands of gun shows occur a year, and little is done to make sure that those guns stay in the U.S.''

Yesterday, Rush Limpballs said:

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment.

I guess old Limpballs thinks President Bush was in on the plot to get rid of the 2nd Amendment with his Operation Wide Receiver & other Gunrunner operations that went down under the Bush Administration. I guess Darrell Issa is also part of the plot to get rid of the 2nd Amendment as Darrell Issa vote yes to specifically fund the Project Gunrunner operations (plural) in 2008.

 

My questions: Why hasn't anyone in the media connected Project Gunrunner to Darrell Issa's yes vote to fund Project Gunrunner and why hasn't anyone in the media connected Project Gunrunner to Merida Initiative?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your facts straight. Project gunrunner is not Fast and Furious. Any attempt to link the two is a diversion by the administration.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your facts straight. Project gunrunner is not Fast and Furious. Any attempt to link the two is a diversion by the administration.

 

Since Issa appears to have no evidence of anything illegal I'd say your point is moot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your facts straight. Project gunrunner is not Fast and Furious. Any attempt to link the two is a diversion by the administration.

 

Since Issa appears to have no evidence of anything illegal I'd say your point is moot.

Hard to have evidence when the DOJ and now the White house is refusing to turn over the documents. I guess if agent Terry was a black teenager the left might care about finding out what happened.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It turns out that Project Gunrunner started not 2006 but in 2005 in Laredo.

It's not going to work - The effort to link Gunrunner and the Fuck up that is Fast and Furious is really getting pathetic - Even Holder has retracted the tie ins in his early attempt to say "Bush did it TOOOOOO!!!!"

Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your facts straight. Project gunrunner is not Fast and Furious. Any attempt to link the two is a diversion by the administration.

 

Since Issa appears to have no evidence of anything illegal I'd say your point is moot.

Hard to have evidence when the DOJ and now the White house is refusing to turn over the documents. I guess if agent Terry was a black teenager the left might care about finding out what happened.

 

The documents are confidential and would reveal on going operations. If you haven't found evidence in all the months and thousands of pages of investigation I assert the Chairman is merely grabbing at straws.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberals in general are not up to speed on F&F as the do not watch Fox new. Fox mews has been covering F&F since the death of the border agent. The rest of the media have been ignoring Fast and Furious.

 

Rachel Maddow agrees with you on that. Really!

 

http://crooksandliar...cks-fast-furiou

 

I was surprised that she dug up a snippet of Issa saying this (at 11:10)

 

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment

 

That sums up what drives this lunacy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bush program was much different. Guns were sold and followed so they could catch the intended user and the Mexican government was informed. The Obama program let the guns walk and made no attempt to follow. Worse yet the Mexican government was not informed. This is why there were whistleblowers. Again, the got some catching up to do.

 

Although the Mexicans were informed, guns got away in that one too. Might have something to do with why they kept it secret from them when the did F&F. Can't be sure about that though.

 

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-guns-that-got-away-11172011.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberals in general are not up to speed on F&F as the do not watch Fox new. Fox mews has been covering F&F since the death of the border agent. The rest of the media have been ignoring Fast and Furious.

 

Rachel Maddow agrees with you on that. Really!

 

http://crooksandliar...cks-fast-furiou

 

I was surprised that she dug up a snippet of Issa saying this (at 11:10)

 

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment

 

That sums up what drives this lunacy.

 

 

I don't think that just because Issa and Grassly say that stuff on Fox means they actually believe it themselves. Some of the other committee members maybe, but not them. I think they would have gone after the head of the BATF if they did, and not so carefully ignored previous efforts like it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberals in general are not up to speed on F&F as the do not watch Fox new. Fox mews has been covering F&F since the death of the border agent. The rest of the media have been ignoring Fast and Furious.

 

Rachel Maddow agrees with you on that. Really!

 

http://crooksandliar...cks-fast-furiou

 

I was surprised that she dug up a snippet of Issa saying this (at 11:10)

 

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment

 

That sums up what drives this lunacy.

 

 

I don't think that just because Issa and Grassly say that stuff on Fox means they actually believe it themselves. Some of the other committee members maybe, but not them. I think they would have gone after the head of the BATF if they did, and not so carefully ignored previous efforts like it.

 

Then what is the point of delivering that message on Fox?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Then what is the point of delivering that message on Fox?

So REAL Americans could hear about it?? Sarcasm off

 

Get your facts straight. Project gunrunner is not Fast and Furious. Any attempt to link the two is a diversion by the administration.

 

Since Issa appears to have no evidence of anything illegal I'd say your point is moot.

Hard to have evidence when the DOJ and now the White house is refusing to turn over the documents. I guess if agent Terry was a black teenager the left might care about finding out what happened.

 

The documents are confidential and would reveal on going operations. If you haven't found evidence in all the months and thousands of pages of investigation I assert the Chairman is merely grabbing at straws.

I hope to hell there are no ongoing operations - Holder claimed to have shut them all down.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this on the Daily Kos, I look forward to your comments Tom:

 

 

The Merida Initiative is the, and was the, basis for the 2008 HR-6028 Bill which specifically funded "Project Gunrunner." Darrell Issa pretends he has never heard of Project Gunrunner, yet in 2008 he specifically voted to fund Project Gunrunner.

 

Uh huh. And Eric Holder knew all about it in 2009 when he bragged about stimulus funds being used to fund Project Gunrunner.

 

But Big Government found a 2009 speech by Holder on the Department of Justice's own website that proves the attorney general was well aware of Operation Gunrunner back in 2009:

 

The problem with Holder’s feigned ignorance is that he gave a speech in Cuernavaca, Mexico, on April 2, 2009, in which he boasted about Operation 'Gunrunner” and told Mexican authorities of everything he was doing to insure its success.

 

When questioned by the media, Holder also denied knowing anything about Gunrunner:

 

"Holder's office at first vehemently denied ATF has ever knowingly allowed weapons to get into the hands of suspected gunrunners for Mexico's drug cartels," CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson reported.

 

But at the arms trafficking conference in Cuernavaca, Holder not only acknowledged the program, he bragged that he was in the process of expanding it:

 

"Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion. DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail."

 

 

This message may take a few repetitions to sink it: it's not going to be about the operations now. It's going to be about the coverup, specifically the false letter to Congress that the DOJ had to withdraw.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Rachel Maddow agrees with you on that. Really!

 

http://crooksandliar...cks-fast-furiou

 

I was surprised that she dug up a snippet of Issa saying this (at 11:10)

 

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment

 

That sums up what drives this lunacy.

 

The fact that Fast and Furious resulted in calls for more gun controls is not lunacy, but a simple fact. Whether it was intended can be doubted, though no one has offered a sane intent that involves walking thousands of guns and then being "jubilant" when they show up at Mexican crime scenes because that shows the "plan" is "working."

 

Just in case you doubt the calls for gun control happened, here's an example from back then...

 

 

Cutting off the flow of arms to the Cartels could get pretty gol-derned draconian for a spell. The NRA has to be on board for that to happen. Only they can give Blue Dogs and rational Republicans the political cover they would need on this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A little over a year ago...

 

Wow, the NRA has managed to get 31 House Democrats involved in their little false flag operation!

 

Friday, June 03, 2011 Today, 31 U.S. House members -- all Democrats -- wrote to President Barack Obama, urging him to end Administration stonewalling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' "Project Gunrunner," and the "Fast and Furious" program under which border state dealers were encouraged to sell thousands of guns to suspicious buyers.

 

In the letter, spearheaded by Rep. Jason Altmire, D-Pa., the lawmakers called the investigative tactics "extremely troubling" and found the Justice Department's failure to provide information to congressional investigators "equally troubling." Saying that Americans deserve "prompt and complete answers," the letter concluded with a call for the administration to help "get to the bottom of this serious allegation of federal law enforcement misconduct."

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rachel Maddow agrees with you on that. Really!

 

http://crooksandliar...cks-fast-furiou

 

I was surprised that she dug up a snippet of Issa saying this (at 11:10)

 

You know the purpose of Fast and Furious, one of the purposes was, to get those guns across the border in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, have crimes committed, and then say we gotta do something about the Second Amendment

 

That sums up what drives this lunacy.

 

The fact that Fast and Furious resulted in calls for more gun controls is not lunacy, but a simple fact. Whether it was intended can be doubted, though no one has offered a sane intent that involves walking thousands of guns and then being "jubilant" when they show up at Mexican crime scenes because that shows the "plan" is "working."

 

Just in case you doubt the calls for gun control happened, here's an example from back then...

 

Cutting off the flow of arms to the Cartels could get pretty gol-derned draconian for a spell. The NRA has to be on board for that to happen. Only they can give Blue Dogs and rational Republicans the political cover they would need on this.

 

The very thought that Obama and his cohorts would allow thousands upon thousands of guns into Mexico so that they could be used against fellow Americans and then use the rampant backlash to marshal intrusions into limiting the 2nd Amendment is too wackadoodle to consider. Do sparkly things distract you guys?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Classic overload the system. If you want to limit something, create a problem then come in with the solution to solve the problem. No one said these guys were stupid. Had we not had a couple whistle blowers it may have worked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The very thought that Obama and his cohorts would allow thousands upon thousands of guns into Mexico so that they could be used against fellow Americans and then use the rampant backlash to marshal intrusions into limiting the 2nd Amendment is too wackadoodle to consider. Do sparkly things distract you guys?

I hope that's not what the plan was but I'll be damned if I can come up with something more plausable. What explanation is there for allowing thousands of guns to cross into Mexico with no intention of tracking them. What explanation for the obstruction of the investigation extending now all the way to the president?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Linking the narratives a bit, Me Too and Rachel are quite right about the only media that have followed this worth beans is Fox and the others like them. If it hadn't been for Tom posting their stuff here, that report would likely have been the first time I heard of "Sippsy Street Irregulars". They truly know a lot more about all this than Anderson Cooper, or anybody like him.

 

Can it live in the spotlight of the regular MSM? I suspect that is a factor too. Hence the idea that Holder is in "bring it on" mode.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The very thought that Obama and his cohorts would allow thousands upon thousands of guns into Mexico so that they could be used against fellow Americans and then use the rampant backlash to marshal intrusions into limiting the 2nd Amendment is too wackadoodle to consider. Do sparkly things distract you guys?

I hope that's not what the plan was but I'll be damned if I can come up with something more plausable. What explanation is there for allowing thousands of guns to cross into Mexico with no intention of tracking them. What explanation for the obstruction of the investigation extending now all the way to the president?

 

Stupidity sounds just about right, but I have doubts that this is somehow engineered, especially with the months of paperwork and investigation. If by this point you don't have something, I believe you won't later either.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The very thought that Obama and his cohorts would allow thousands upon thousands of guns into Mexico so that they could be used against fellow Americans and then use the rampant backlash to marshal intrusions into limiting the 2nd Amendment is too wackadoodle to consider. Do sparkly things distract you guys?

I hope that's not what the plan was but I'll be damned if I can come up with something more plausable. What explanation is there for allowing thousands of guns to cross into Mexico with no intention of tracking them. What explanation for the obstruction of the investigation extending now all the way to the president?

 

Stupidity sounds just about right, but I have doubts that this is somehow engineered, especially with the months of paperwork and investigation. If by this point you don't have something, I believe you won't later either.

Stupidity… Holder risks being found in contempt and Obama invokes executive privilege to conceal stupidity by some lower level bureaucrat… You think?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The very thought that Obama and his cohorts would allow thousands upon thousands of guns into Mexico so that they could be used against fellow Americans and then use the rampant backlash to marshal intrusions into limiting the 2nd Amendment is too wackadoodle to consider. Do sparkly things distract you guys?

I hope that's not what the plan was but I'll be damned if I can come up with something more plausable. What explanation is there for allowing thousands of guns to cross into Mexico with no intention of tracking them. What explanation for the obstruction of the investigation extending now all the way to the president?

 

Stupidity sounds just about right, but I have doubts that this is somehow engineered, especially with the months of paperwork and investigation. If by this point you don't have something, I believe you won't later either.

 

Stupidity might have explained the program, but the denials to Congress extending for months beyond when they were plausible to anyone outside the Washington Post staff? Not buying it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They may have been able to get away with claiming exec privilege six months ago bit after all this time stalling and revising testimony its not going to fly. The story has wings now. Just like the attained dress, the story just became more interesting. Newspapers are selling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yawn.

Really? A US Border Patrol Officer was killed by a weapon traced to this stuff, and that is your response? I don't feel like I need to be a Kool Aid drinking crackpot who sees an effort to nix the Second Amendment any time a democRAT farts to want to know about the program involved in this man's death.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They may have been able to get away with claiming exec privilege six months ago bit after all this time stalling and revising testimony its not going to fly. The story has wings now. Just like the attained dress, the story just became more interesting. Newspapers are selling.

 

When this report came out it should have ended the investigation. That it didn't, speaks volumes:

 

Reporting from Washington — The claim by senior ATF officials that none of the weapons lost in the botched Fast and Furious sting operation were used in the shooting of a Border Patrol agent is not supported by FBI ballistics tests, according to a copy of the FBI report on the shooting. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/27/nation/la-na-fast-furious-fbi-20110727

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

They may have been able to get away with claiming exec privilege six months ago bit after all this time stalling and revising testimony its not going to fly. The story has wings now. Just like the attained dress, the story just became more interesting. Newspapers are selling.

 

When this report came out it should have ended the investigation. That it didn't, speaks volumes:

 

Reporting from Washington — The claim by senior ATF officials that none of the weapons lost in the botched Fast and Furious sting operation were used in the shooting of a Border Patrol agent is not supported by FBI ballistics tests, according to a copy of the FBI report on the shooting. http://articles.lati...us-fbi-20110727

 

 

The findings were indeterminate, but by that time it did not matter. The presence of Fast and Furious weapons at the scene of Agent Terry's murder is what prompted whistleblowers, who had been trying to go through normal channels, to go to Senator Grassley and the only media outlet who would listen: Sipsey Street Irregulars.

 

Once it was known that the ATF was walking guns, there was going to be an investigation, whether one of them actually was used to kill Terry or was merely at the scene of his murder. The investigation is about the gunwalking and the subsequent coverup, not that one murder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When this report came out it should have ended the investigation. That it didn't, speaks volumes:

 

Reporting from Washington — The claim by senior ATF officials that none of the weapons lost in the botched Fast and Furious sting operation were used in the shooting of a Border Patrol agent is not supported by FBI ballistics tests, according to a copy of the FBI report on the shooting. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/27/nation/la-na-fast-furious-fbi-20110727

 

Really...So we should just forget the fact that thousands of guns are allowed to cross an international border without any effort to track them and without the knowledge of the other country, that hundreds of people have been killed with the guns, that we still don’t know who authorized it, that the AG lied to congress about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They may have been able to get away with claiming exec privilege six months ago bit after all this time stalling and revising testimony its not going to fly. The story has wings now. Just like the attained dress, the story just became more interesting. Newspapers are selling.

 

When this report came out it should have ended the investigation. That it didn't, speaks volumes:

 

Reporting from Washington — The claim by senior ATF officials that none of the weapons lost in the botched Fast and Furious sting operation were used in the shooting of a Border Patrol agent is not supported by FBI ballistics tests, according to a copy of the FBI report on the shooting. http://articles.lati...us-fbi-20110727

 

 

The findings were indeterminate, but by that time it did not matter. The presence of Fast and Furious weapons at the scene of Agent Terry's murder is what prompted whistleblowers, who had been trying to go through normal channels, to go to Senator Grassley and the only media outlet who would listen: Sipsey Street Irregulars.

 

Once it was known that the ATF was walking guns, there was going to be an investigation, whether one of them actually was used to kill Terry or was merely at the scene of his murder. The investigation is about the gunwalking and the subsequent coverup, not that one murder.

 

Funny, because what I read everywhere else is that Terry's murder is the one reason to proceed with the investigation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And by the way, I got tired of calling out this particular bit of bullshit quite a while back, but it's still bullshit:

 

The goal of the Fast and Furious operation, run by the Phoenix office of the ATF, was to allow straw purchasers to illegally buy weapons in the U.S. so agents could learn the traffickers' routes into Mexico. The agents were then supposed to intervene before the guns were sold to drug cartels. But agents lost track of roughly 1,700 weapons, and hundreds soon began showing up at homicide scenes in Mexico.

 

What had the agents upset, and the reason they finally blew the whistle, was that they were ordered to follow the straw purchasers, not the guns, and to discontinue surveillance of a "safe" house where guns were taken by a straw buyer, among other things. They WANTED to intervene and grab the guns, but were ordered not to do so. The testimony is (far upthread) in this thread. I may go dig it up. Agents Dodson and Canino testified to the things I mentioned. Other agents said similar things.

 

They also testified that their superiors were happy when these weapons showed up at Mexican crime scenes. This is not easily explained. Covering it up is even harder to explain.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yawn.

Really? A US Border Patrol Officer was killed by a weapon traced to this stuff, and that is your response? I don't feel like I need to be a Kool Aid drinking crackpot who sees an effort to nix the Second Amendment any time a democRAT farts to want to know about the program involved in this man's death.

First if you are interested in the death of a Border Patrol Agent you might spend some time reading about others who have died serving:

 

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_security/border_patrol/border_patrol_officer_memorial/chron_listing_agents/

 

This was a dangerous program which was started in the Bush program: sell assault guns that would flow across the border into Mexico and track them. Eventually there would be blowback and there was.

 

If I'm bored by the political theater the Right Wing is making of this unfortunate but predictable death, it is only because of the I'm enured to their callous methods.

 

Are you at all outraged at the cynical misuse of this man's death?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Funny, because what I read everywhere else is that Terry's murder is the one reason to proceed with the investigation.

 

It's the one reason it started. It's one reason to proceed. Others include: gunwalking is wrong, the people who did it are still in our government, and the people who lied to Congress about it are as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a dangerous program which was started in the Bush program: sell assault guns that would flow across the border into Mexico and track them.

 

That was the idea in Wide Reciever, but a critical difference in Fast and Furious was that the agents were ordered not to track the guns or intervene, as mentioned. I guess I will have to go dig up that testimony again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agent Canino's take on gunwalking

 

Excerpt from the latest committee report:

 

As more information came to light, however, Gil and Canino concluded that hundreds and

hundreds of guns had been walked. These guns ended up in at crime scenes in Mexico, about

which Gil and Canino received extensive briefings. Gil and Canino became incensed when they

finally began to learn about the full scope of Operation Fast and Furious and the investigative

techniques involved:

 

Q. When you first got the impression that this was part of a strategy to

let guns walk into Mexico, what was your reaction to that strategy?

 

A. I wasn't convinced that this happened until this past April after all

the allegations were made, and I talked to different people. I was

beyond shocked. Embarrassed. I was angry. I'm still angry.

Because this is not what we do.

 

* * *

 

That is, I mean, this is the perfect storm of idiocy. That is the

only way I could put it. This is, I mean, this is inconceivable to

me. This is group think gone awry. You know what General

George Patton says, if we are all thinking alike, then nobody is

thinking. Right? Nobody was thinking here. How could anybody

think, hey, let's follow, I mean there is a guy in this case that

bought over 600 guns. At what point do you think you might want

to pull him aside and say, hey, come here for a second.137

 

When Canino himself uncovered hard evidence that ATF had allowed the guns to disappear from

their surveillance he understood the whistleblower allegations were true:

 

Q. Okay, and take us through what happened in April.

 

A. I was here on a visit to headquarters.

 

Q. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters?

 

A. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters, and I was, I was

looking at a, the management log on this case. And the first two

pages, if I'm not mistaken, there are entries there that

chronicle us walking away on three separate occasions from

stash houses.

 

Q. And did that sound to you incredible?

 

A. I stopped reading.

 

Q. So you only got through two pages of this management log?

 

A. Yeah.

 

Q. And then you couldn't read it any longer?

 

A. Didn't want to.

 

Q. Because you were so upset?

 

A. Yes.

 

Q. And you were upset because walking away from three stash houses

struck you as so outrageous?

 

A. Walking away from one, walking away from one gun when you

know that that gun is going to be used in a crime when you, I

mean, there is no, there was no gray area here guys. There was

no gray area here. We knew that these guys were trafficking

guns into Mexico. There is no gray area. They weren't

trafficking, [the] guys weren't going out and buying two Larson 22

pistols. These guys were buying 7.62, 223's, .50 caliber rifles,

okay, there was no mistake about this. This is no gray area.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

 

 

 

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny, because what I read everywhere else is that Terry's murder is the one reason to proceed with the investigation.

 

It's the one reason it started. It's one reason to proceed. Others include: gunwalking is wrong, the people who did it are still in our government, and the people who lied to Congress about it are as well.

 

Mexico was awash in guns before this fiasco even started, their murder rate would make Rio de Janeiro look like Antarctica. Further, if this investigation was remotely interested in the truth it would have had the Arizona head of the ATF before the committee along with Edward Mukasey. That they didn't is not lost on a lot of people.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailyb...nside-joke.html

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

...

 

 

 

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

 

I know of no one who has been dismissed, one who resigned, and the ones who have been reassigned show a distinct pattern: whistleblowers were not treated as well as gunwalkers. Am I going to have to dig up that info too? This thread has gotten really long!

 

The idea that those responsible have been punished is just as ludicrous coming from this reporter as it was from Rep. Fattah.

 

I still fail to see how what happened is part of any sane plan at all, let alone why anyone would cover it up for a year and a half.

 

Edit to add: The IG is inspecting their bosses, which is why Congress wants to oversee the situation. I can't blame them based on the stonewalling so far.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

Whose drones were they using then?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's worth remembering at this point that the Washington Post did not admit the ATF walked guns until July 2011, much later than any other media source of which I am aware. The DOJ just barely beat them to the punch, IIRC retracting their denial letter in June.

 

Huge news! The Washington Post has finally printed what the government did, or at least part of it, so readers of that publication will not be utterly ignorant of what happened any longer.

 

Fast and Furious allowed the suspected illegal purchase of hundreds of semiautomatic firearms in Arizona gun shops so ATF agents could watch where the guns ended up, with the hope of bringing down a Mexican cartel.

 

The bolded part is the first appearance of that fact in the Post. About friggin' time. I think this leaves only our friend wabbit in the "won't admit it in public" club. ;)

 

The bad news is the part in red, which is misleading at best, and notably incomplete. It is misleading because the word "watch" implies they were keeping an eye on the guns, something they were ordered not to do. "Learn" would have been a more accurate term, since they allowed the straw sales and just waited to find the guns at crime scenes. It is notably incomplete because it does not mention how happy supervisors were, nor how chagrined agents were, when that outcome (goal?) was achieved.

 

The order not to track the guns, coupled with the giddiness at finding them at crime scenes, are the two things that are giving rise to conspiracy theories about padding statistics for more gun control. The complete failure to address those two issues in the mainstream media, and the complete absence of a plausible explanation, are not helping that situation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of them really believe it, that Obama is trying to take their guns by giving them to Mexicans. Then, IMO, there are others who are convinced there just has to be a blue dress in there somewhere, and are hitching a ride on the crazy train.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the problem is that gun nutz are the only ones who have come up with a reason for gunwalking that in any way fits the facts. That does not mean the reason is correct or is the only reason, just the only one that has been offered that fits the facts so far.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of them really believe it, that Obama is trying to take their guns by giving them to Mexicans. Then, IMO, there are others who are convinced there just has to be a blue dress in there somewhere, and are hitching a ride on the crazy train.

Guns are allowed to walk across an international border with no intention of tracking them.

After 18 months of investigation the AG still does not know who in his own organization authorized the operation. It’s not credible, if he did not already know he could find out in 5 minutes.

The AG of the United States perjures himself before congress denying he knew of the program earlier than he in fact did. (What must Roger Clemons and Scooter Libby be thinking?)

And now when congress attempts to discover what’s behind all the perjury and stonewalling the president steps into the mess and attempts to shut down the inquiry with a claim of executive privilege.

 

Now I think the gun nutz explanation is a bit out there but the only other explanation offered so far is that it was all simply a case of “stupidity” which is itself an example of stupidity. Something is obviously being concealed, if you have a plausible explanation let’s hear it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Things Gun Nutz Find Strange...

 

I'll try to take it from the top and give a short version of things that cause gun nutz to jump to unfortunate conclusions because they lack a plausible explanation.

 

Before and after the gunwalking scandal was revealed, there were a string of claims from the usual suspects that 90% of guns used in Mexican crimes came from the US. In fact, that number applies to guns the Mexicans suspected were from the US and sent to us for identification. They were confirmed right 90% of the time. This statistic by itself tells us nothing about the percentage of guns used in Mexican crimes, which includes guns from non-US sources, yet it was repeated far and wide.

 

The statistic is misleading not just because it was used out of context, but also because it identifies ALL US guns, not just those from the retail market.

 

"I received additional documentation from an ATF database of firearms, and learned that the actual percentage of firearms found in Mexico and traced back to U.S. based federal firearms licensees in 2009 and 2010 was only 24 percent. It turns out the discrepancy lies in the fact that most of the firearms found in Mexico may actually have been sold between governments in direct military to military transactions or were exported directly from manufacturers approved by our government. In either case, U.S. gun dealers are the last people who should be blamed."

 

24% came from the retail market, the other 76% from military and direct commercial sales. To sailing gun nutz, this looks a lot like someone who has water coming in the companionway and a few giant fucking holes in the bottom of the boat, and his first priority is to close the retail companionway, ignoring military, direct commercial, and foreign sales holes.

 

Then came the death of Agent Terry and the whistleblowers came forward, raising the question:

 

Why Didn't the Justice Department talk to the ATF Whistleblowers? It's a good question. They had every opportunity and did not respond well.

 

Meanwhile, back in Congress, there was a failed attempt (supported by the administration) to pass a multiple sales reporting act. The administration responded by implementing the rules by executive order. They really want that companionway shut, at least a little bit. Why?

 

The initial minority committee report on gunwalking (search this thread for "whitewash") mentioned only "troubling allegations" or some other vague term, then went on a long diatribe about how we need more gun control, never mentioning what those allegations actually were, nor why they were troubling. Why?

 

Toward the end of January of last year, Senator Grassley personally handed Eric Holder letters containing questions about the allegations of whistleblowers. On February 4th, Lanny Breuer's team responded with the famously false denial that the ATF had walked guns. This is the same Lanny Breuer who was briefed in detail in 2010. His team had access to the truth and managed to avoid it. Why?

 

The DOJ stuck by that false denial for months, long after it was completely implausible, before withdrawing the letter. Why?

 

Eric Holder claimed he only heard about Fast and Furious "a few weeks" earlier in the press during Congressional testimony in April of 2011. Or maybe it was May, I don't recall. A Senator hands the AG a letter involving troubling allegations about a death of one of his agents and he begins learning what was going on months later in the press? Why?

 

And then there's this:

 

Seen this internal ATF memo yet?

 

Screenshot2011-07-13at114656AM.png

 

 

Operation Fast and Furious: Designed to Promote Gun Control "Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for a rulelike the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

http://townhall.com/...ote_gun_control

 

Yes, yes, I know. Nanny posted it and townhall published it, but try very hard to focus on what it actually is, not where it came from. It's an email in which one government official is asking another to help use data generated by Fast and Furious to help promote that 90% myth I discussed above.

 

Give me a sane and reasonable explanation for all of these things and I promise to take it back to the gun nut faithful and spread it. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Testimony of Agent Casa from a little over a year ago:

 

“Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Cummings. Good morning honorable members of Congress. My name is Olindo James Casa, and I’m a senior special agent with the Bureau of ATF.

 

“I’ve been employed with ATF since March of 1993 as both an inspector and, later, as a special agent. I’m currently assigned to the Phoenix field division, Phoenix Group 7, and also of Strike Force Group. I’ve been assigned to that group since December 2009 to the present.

 

“As a special agent with the ATF, I’ve been a case agent, I’ve been a cold-case agent, and I’ve participated in many firearms trafficking investigations, both domestic and international in scope. Needless to say, I feel I have extensive experience in regards to firearms trafficking investigations. My work has resulted in the successful prosecution of many individuals who have violated the law.

 

“After reporting to Phoenix Group 7 office in December 2009, I was briefed by group members on the investigation “Fast and Furious.” Shortly after, I became aware of what I believed to be unusual and questionable investigative techniques. For instance, I became aware of certain straw purchasers were purchasing numerous firearms from firearm dealers. What I found concerning and alarming was – more times than not – no law enforcement activity was planned to stop these suspected straw purchasers from purchasing firearms. The only law enforcement activity that was occasionally taken was to conduct a surveillance of the transaction and then nothing more.

 

 

“As the investigation progressed over the next couple of months, additional suspected straw purchasers were identified – again with no obvious attempts to interdict the weapons or interview the suspects. Around the same time, Phoenix Group 7′s office was said to receive numerous firearm traces, detailing firearms recoveries in the country of Mexico. Many of those traces disclose aforementioned straw purchasers responsible for purchasing those recovered firearms.

 

“At this time, several special agents in the group, including myself, became increasingly concerned and alarmed at Case Agent Hope McAllister and Group Supervisor Dave Voth’s refusal to stop or address the suspected straw purchasers from purchasing additional firearms.

 

“Special Agent John Dodson and I continually raised our concerns directly with the case agent, Cold Case Agent Tonya English, and Group Supervisor Voth, to no avail.

 

“In response to our increasingly voiced concerns, the group supervisor issued the infamous “schism” email to the group. In essence, the email was a direct threat to the agents who were not in agreement on how Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, or how Group Supervisor Voth managed the investigation. Based on my 18 years of experience with the ATF, I did not think the email was an empty threat. I took it very seriously.

 

“It’s been common practice for ATF supervisors to retaliate against employees who do not blindly tow the company line. Sometime in March 2010, at the direction of Group Supervisor Voth, the Case Agent McAllister, daily surveillance of straw purchasers started to be conducted by members of Group 7 as well as ATF special agents from other offices who were detailed to assist with the Operation Fast and Furious.

 

“ATF Field Agent Lawrence Alt reported to the Phoenix 7 group office around this period of time and, like Special Dodson and I, became alarmed of the direction of the investigation and spoke out against the practices that were being utilized.

 

“My role during these daily surveillances was that of shift supervisor. As a shift supervisor, my responsibility was to oversee field agents at the direction of Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, and/or Group Supervisor Dave Voth.

 

“In general, my fears were realized while on these aforementioned surveillances. On numerous cases, the surveillance team followed straw purchasers to Phoenix area firearms dealers and would observe these straw purchasers buy and depart with numerous firearms in hand. Those firearms included but not limited to AK-47s variant rifles, .50 caliber rifles, 5.7 millimeter FM pistols – all of which are devastating weapons.

 

“On many of those occasions the surveillance team would follow the straw purchasers either to residences, a public location, or until the surveillance team was spotted by straw purchasers but the end result was always the same: the surveillance was terminated by the case agent, cold case agent, or supervisor without interdicting or seizing the firearms.

 

“On several occasions, I personally requested to interdict or seize the firearm in such a manner that would only further their investigation, but I was always told to stand down and not to seize the firearms. I made these requests over the air and have many law enforcement witnesses that can verify my assertions.

 

“Reflecting back to that period of time during the investigation, I thought the poor decisions made were due to incompetency or lack of experience, which would have make the situation better. Unfortunately, in light of recent documents released briefing paper dated January 8, 2010, it appears the investigation was conducted in a recklessly planned manner with a specific strategy in mind. Per the briefing paper, the strategy was to allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate in illegal traffic of firearms to Mexican trafficking organizations.

 

“Special Agent Dodson, Special Agent Alt, and I – at times on a daily basis – have warned the Case Agent, the Cold Case Agent, the Group Supervisor of the reckless course they were taking in regards to the investigation. We sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions but were repeatedly ignored. In fact, on at least a couple of occasions, I witnessed Special Agent Dodson asked as both Special Agent McAllister and Group Supervisor Voth if they were prepared to attend the funeral of a slain agent or officer after he or she was killed with one of those straw purchase firearms. Neither one answered or even seemed concerned by the question posed to them.

 

“To close, I’d like to extend my heartfelt condolences to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s family. I’m truly sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace.”

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Things Gun Nutz Find Strange...

 

I'll try to take it from the top and give a short version of things that cause gun nutz to jump to unfortunate conclusions because they lack a plausible explanation.

 

Before and after the gunwalking scandal was revealed, there were a string of claims from the usual suspects that 90% of guns used in Mexican crimes came from the US. In fact, that number applies to guns the Mexicans suspected were from the US and sent to us for identification. They were confirmed right 90% of the time. This statistic by itself tells us nothing about the percentage of guns used in Mexican crimes, which includes guns from non-US sources, yet it was repeated far and wide.

 

The statistic is misleading not just because it was used out of context, but also because it identifies ALL US guns, not just those from the retail market.

 

"I received additional documentation from an ATF database of firearms, and learned that the actual percentage of firearms found in Mexico and traced back to U.S. based federal firearms licensees in 2009 and 2010 was only 24 percent. It turns out the discrepancy lies in the fact that most of the firearms found in Mexico may actually have been sold between governments in direct military to military transactions or were exported directly from manufacturers approved by our government. In either case, U.S. gun dealers are the last people who should be blamed."

 

24% came from the retail market, the other 76% from military and direct commercial sales. To sailing gun nutz, this looks a lot like someone who has water coming in the companionway and a few giant fucking holes in the bottom of the boat, and his first priority is to close the retail companionway, ignoring military, direct commercial, and foreign sales holes.

 

Then came the death of Agent Terry and the whistleblowers came forward, raising the question:

 

Why Didn't the Justice Department talk to the ATF Whistleblowers? It's a good question. They had every opportunity and did not respond well.

 

Meanwhile, back in Congress, there was a failed attempt (supported by the administration) to pass a multiple sales reporting act. The administration responded by implementing the rules by executive order. They really want that companionway shut, at least a little bit. Why?

 

The initial minority committee report on gunwalking (search this thread for "whitewash") mentioned only "troubling allegations" or some other vague term, then went on a long diatribe about how we need more gun control, never mentioning what those allegations actually were, nor why they were troubling. Why?

 

Toward the end of January of last year, Senator Grassley personally handed Eric Holder letters containing questions about the allegations of whistleblowers. On February 4th, Lanny Breuer's team responded with the famously false denial that the ATF had walked guns. This is the same Lanny Breuer who was briefed in detail in 2010. His team had access to the truth and managed to avoid it. Why?

 

The DOJ stuck by that false denial for months, long after it was completely implausible, before withdrawing the letter. Why?

 

Eric Holder claimed he only heard about Fast and Furious "a few weeks" earlier in the press during Congressional testimony in April of 2011. Or maybe it was May, I don't recall. A Senator hands the AG a letter involving troubling allegations about a death of one of his agents and he begins learning what was going on months later in the press? Why?

 

And then there's this:

 

Seen this internal ATF memo yet?

 

Screenshot2011-07-13at114656AM.png

 

 

Operation Fast and Furious: Designed to Promote Gun Control "Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for a rulelike the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

http://townhall.com/...ote_gun_control

 

Yes, yes, I know. Nanny posted it and townhall published it, but try very hard to focus on what it actually is, not where it came from. It's an email in which one government official is asking another to help use data generated by Fast and Furious to help promote that 90% myth I discussed above.

 

Give me a sane and reasonable explanation for all of these things and I promise to take it back to the gun nut faithful and spread it. ;)

Now that's what I call a vast left-wing conspiracy! :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Testimony of Agent Casa from a little over a year ago:

 

"Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Cummings. Good morning honorable members of Congress. My name is Olindo James Casa, and I'm a senior special agent with the Bureau of ATF.

 

"I've been employed with ATF since March of 1993 as both an inspector and, later, as a special agent. I'm currently assigned to the Phoenix field division, Phoenix Group 7, and also of Strike Force Group. I've been assigned to that group since December 2009 to the present.

 

"As a special agent with the ATF, I've been a case agent, I've been a cold-case agent, and I've participated in many firearms trafficking investigations, both domestic and international in scope. Needless to say, I feel I have extensive experience in regards to firearms trafficking investigations. My work has resulted in the successful prosecution of many individuals who have violated the law.

 

"After reporting to Phoenix Group 7 office in December 2009, I was briefed by group members on the investigation "Fast and Furious." Shortly after, I became aware of what I believed to be unusual and questionable investigative techniques. For instance, I became aware of certain straw purchasers were purchasing numerous firearms from firearm dealers. What I found concerning and alarming was – more times than not – no law enforcement activity was planned to stop these suspected straw purchasers from purchasing firearms. The only law enforcement activity that was occasionally taken was to conduct a surveillance of the transaction and then nothing more.

 

 

"As the investigation progressed over the next couple of months, additional suspected straw purchasers were identified – again with no obvious attempts to interdict the weapons or interview the suspects. Around the same time, Phoenix Group 7′s office was said to receive numerous firearm traces, detailing firearms recoveries in the country of Mexico. Many of those traces disclose aforementioned straw purchasers responsible for purchasing those recovered firearms.

 

"At this time, several special agents in the group, including myself, became increasingly concerned and alarmed at Case Agent Hope McAllister and Group Supervisor Dave Voth's refusal to stop or address the suspected straw purchasers from purchasing additional firearms.

 

"Special Agent John Dodson and I continually raised our concerns directly with the case agent, Cold Case Agent Tonya English, and Group Supervisor Voth, to no avail.

 

"In response to our increasingly voiced concerns, the group supervisor issued the infamous "schism" email to the group. In essence, the email was a direct threat to the agents who were not in agreement on how Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, or how Group Supervisor Voth managed the investigation. Based on my 18 years of experience with the ATF, I did not think the email was an empty threat. I took it very seriously.

 

"It's been common practice for ATF supervisors to retaliate against employees who do not blindly tow the company line. Sometime in March 2010, at the direction of Group Supervisor Voth, the Case Agent McAllister, daily surveillance of straw purchasers started to be conducted by members of Group 7 as well as ATF special agents from other offices who were detailed to assist with the Operation Fast and Furious.

 

"ATF Field Agent Lawrence Alt reported to the Phoenix 7 group office around this period of time and, like Special Dodson and I, became alarmed of the direction of the investigation and spoke out against the practices that were being utilized.

 

"My role during these daily surveillances was that of shift supervisor. As a shift supervisor, my responsibility was to oversee field agents at the direction of Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, and/or Group Supervisor Dave Voth.

 

"In general, my fears were realized while on these aforementioned surveillances. On numerous cases, the surveillance team followed straw purchasers to Phoenix area firearms dealers and would observe these straw purchasers buy and depart with numerous firearms in hand. Those firearms included but not limited to AK-47s variant rifles, .50 caliber rifles, 5.7 millimeter FM pistols – all of which are devastating weapons.

 

"On many of those occasions the surveillance team would follow the straw purchasers either to residences, a public location, or until the surveillance team was spotted by straw purchasers but the end result was always the same: the surveillance was terminated by the case agent, cold case agent, or supervisor without interdicting or seizing the firearms.

 

"On several occasions, I personally requested to interdict or seize the firearm in such a manner that would only further their investigation, but I was always told to stand down and not to seize the firearms. I made these requests over the air and have many law enforcement witnesses that can verify my assertions.

 

"Reflecting back to that period of time during the investigation, I thought the poor decisions made were due to incompetency or lack of experience, which would have make the situation better. Unfortunately, in light of recent documents released briefing paper dated January 8, 2010, it appears the investigation was conducted in a recklessly planned manner with a specific strategy in mind. Per the briefing paper, the strategy was to allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate in illegal traffic of firearms to Mexican trafficking organizations.

 

"Special Agent Dodson, Special Agent Alt, and I – at times on a daily basis – have warned the Case Agent, the Cold Case Agent, the Group Supervisor of the reckless course they were taking in regards to the investigation. We sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions but were repeatedly ignored. In fact, on at least a couple of occasions, I witnessed Special Agent Dodson asked as both Special Agent McAllister and Group Supervisor Voth if they were prepared to attend the funeral of a slain agent or officer after he or she was killed with one of those straw purchase firearms. Neither one answered or even seemed concerned by the question posed to them.

 

"To close, I'd like to extend my heartfelt condolences to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's family. I'm truly sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace."

 

 

From the testimony of Agents Dodson, Casa, and Canino, it looks like the problem with this botched operation is that the agents lost track of the guns, doesn't it? <_<

 

Will anyone who is not a gun nut ever call that endlessly repeated propaganda line the bullshit it so obviously is? I have heard that some call out the BS from both sides...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of them really believe it, that Obama is trying to take their guns by giving them to Mexicans. Then, IMO, there are others who are convinced there just has to be a blue dress in there somewhere, and are hitching a ride on the crazy train.

Guns are allowed to walk across an international border with no intention of tracking them.

After 18 months of investigation the AG still does not know who in his own organization authorized the operation. It’s not credible, if he did not already know he could find out in 5 minutes.

The AG of the United States perjures himself before congress denying he knew of the program earlier than he in fact did. (What must Roger Clemons and Scooter Libby be thinking?)

And now when congress attempts to discover what’s behind all the perjury and stonewalling the president steps into the mess and attempts to shut down the inquiry with a claim of executive privilege.

 

Now I think the gun nutz explanation is a bit out there but the only other explanation offered so far is that it was all simply a case of “stupidity” which is itself an example of stupidity. Something is obviously being concealed, if you have a plausible explanation let’s hear it.

 

 

If there was NO intention of tracking them, how did they link the weapons found at the Terry crime scene to F&F?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Frum puts it quite succinctly.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/fast-and-furious-inside-joke.html

 

Karen Hughes tells the following story in her memoirs:

 

She had left the White House and was recuperating with a beachside vacation. She looked up from the sand and saw a small plane crossing the sky, dragging a big advertising banner behind it. It said, "Come back, Jill. I am miserable without you. Love, Jack." She thought: Bad message Jack—too much about you, not enough about her.

 

I think of this passage as Republicans prepare for a constitutional show-down over the Fast & Furious fiasco.

 

Yes, the operation was a terrible and embarrassing failure that led to the violent deaths of one American and hundreds of Mexicans. Yes, there should be accountability—and indeed there is an Inspector-General's investigation underway, and relevant officials have been dismissed or reassigned.

 

What's driving the intensity in this story, though, is an unspoken theory among some conservatives that the true purpose of Fast & Furious was not a (tragically misconceived) plan to end gun violence in Mexico but a (secret and sinister) plan to tamper with gun rights in the United States.

 

Here's an explicit statement of the conservatives' theory by one of the case's most passionate observers, Bob Owens, writing at PJMedia.com:

 

We know for a fact that Operation Fast and Furious was designed by the Obama administration to put American weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels to kill Mexican citizens, and that the guns recovered in those deaths would be used to call for more gun control.

 

Hundreds died in a plot that appears to have been designed to impose gun control. It’s past time for the appointment of an independent prosecutor, and to press for criminal charges against those responsible for the carnage that has resulted from the deadliest scandal in U.S. government history.

 

(It's worth remembering at this point that PJMedia.com was the site that launched the false story that the Environmental Protection Agency was using military drones to spy on farmers.)

 

This theory is self-inflated and unsupported, but it's widely believed. Probably nothing to be done about that. The question for Republicans is: do they really want to take this wild-eyed conspiracy to the country as a national voting issue in 2012? We're not talking to the country. We're talking-to ourselves—or rather, to a fringe constituency within ourselves.

There is no question the program was incredibly ill-conceived.

So it's a get-out-the-vote-drive for reliable voters? Another way of saying "have you gone berserk, can't you see that man is a ni?" That explains why it didn't ramp up until now.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of them really believe it, that Obama is trying to take their guns by giving them to Mexicans. Then, IMO, there are others who are convinced there just has to be a blue dress in there somewhere, and are hitching a ride on the crazy train.

Guns are allowed to walk across an international border with no intention of tracking them.

After 18 months of investigation the AG still does not know who in his own organization authorized the operation. It’s not credible, if he did not already know he could find out in 5 minutes.

The AG of the United States perjures himself before congress denying he knew of the program earlier than he in fact did. (What must Roger Clemons and Scooter Libby be thinking?)

And now when congress attempts to discover what’s behind all the perjury and stonewalling the president steps into the mess and attempts to shut down the inquiry with a claim of executive privilege.

 

Now I think the gun nutz explanation is a bit out there but the only other explanation offered so far is that it was all simply a case of “stupidity” which is itself an example of stupidity. Something is obviously being concealed, if you have a plausible explanation let’s hear it.

 

 

If there was NO intention of tracking them, how did they link the weapons found at the Terry crime scene to F&F?

Oh please…The guns in that case were not tracked, they were recovered at the scene of the crime.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh please…The guns in that case were not tracked, they were recovered at the scene of the crime.

 

Yeah, because given the chance to track and to give law enforcement one of the most formidable weapons in their arsenal is not on the NRA's or Republican agenda.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh please…The guns in that case were not tracked, they were recovered at the scene of the crime.

 

Yeah, because given the chance to track and to give law enforcement one of the most formidable weapons in their arsenal is not on the NRA's or Republican agenda.

Ummmm, unfortunately, the guns were tracked under the republicans but, Fast and Furious was a whole new initiative that kinda left that part out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh please…The guns in that case were not tracked, they were recovered at the scene of the crime.

 

Yeah, because given the chance to track and to give law enforcement one of the most formidable weapons in their arsenal is not on the NRA's or Republican agenda.

Ummmm, unfortunately, the guns were tracked under the republicans but, Fast and Furious was a whole new initiative that kinda left that part out.

 

Actually, I was referring to the proposed process wherein micro stamped guns would make it easier for law enforcement to discover who commit crimes that is currently being rigorously opposed by the NRA and their lobby. The deceitful allegation that the F&F guns were not tracked while stymieing processes that would improve tracking should not be lost on people forming opinions about this episode.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh please…The guns in that case were not tracked, they were recovered at the scene of the crime.

 

Yeah, because given the chance to track and to give law enforcement one of the most formidable weapons in their arsenal is not on the NRA's or Republican agenda.

Ummmm, unfortunately, the guns were tracked under the republicans but, Fast and Furious was a whole new initiative that kinda left that part out.

 

Actually, I was referring to the proposed process wherein micro stamped guns would make it easier for law enforcement to discover who commit crimes that is currently being rigorously opposed by the NRA and their lobby. The deceitful allegation that the F&F guns were not tracked while stymieing processes that would improve tracking should not be lost on people forming opinions about this episode.

There is a difference between marking the guns you want to track under controlled (bwahahahaha) conditions and marking every gun for identification.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The deceitful allegation that the F&F guns were not tracked

 

They were not. This is what they did instead:

 

 

Agent Dodson's take:

 

dodsontestimony.gif

 

Testimony of Agent Casa from a little over a year ago:

 

"Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Cummings. Good morning honorable members of Congress. My name is Olindo James Casa, and I'm a senior special agent with the Bureau of ATF.

 

"I've been employed with ATF since March of 1993 as both an inspector and, later, as a special agent. I'm currently assigned to the Phoenix field division, Phoenix Group 7, and also of Strike Force Group. I've been assigned to that group since December 2009 to the present.

 

"As a special agent with the ATF, I've been a case agent, I've been a cold-case agent, and I've participated in many firearms trafficking investigations, both domestic and international in scope. Needless to say, I feel I have extensive experience in regards to firearms trafficking investigations. My work has resulted in the successful prosecution of many individuals who have violated the law.

 

"After reporting to Phoenix Group 7 office in December 2009, I was briefed by group members on the investigation "Fast and Furious." Shortly after, I became aware of what I believed to be unusual and questionable investigative techniques. For instance, I became aware of certain straw purchasers were purchasing numerous firearms from firearm dealers. What I found concerning and alarming was – more times than not – no law enforcement activity was planned to stop these suspected straw purchasers from purchasing firearms. The only law enforcement activity that was occasionally taken was to conduct a surveillance of the transaction and then nothing more.

 

 

"As the investigation progressed over the next couple of months, additional suspected straw purchasers were identified – again with no obvious attempts to interdict the weapons or interview the suspects. Around the same time, Phoenix Group 7′s office was said to receive numerous firearm traces, detailing firearms recoveries in the country of Mexico. Many of those traces disclose aforementioned straw purchasers responsible for purchasing those recovered firearms.

 

"At this time, several special agents in the group, including myself, became increasingly concerned and alarmed at Case Agent Hope McAllister and Group Supervisor Dave Voth's refusal to stop or address the suspected straw purchasers from purchasing additional firearms.

 

"Special Agent John Dodson and I continually raised our concerns directly with the case agent, Cold Case Agent Tonya English, and Group Supervisor Voth, to no avail.

 

"In response to our increasingly voiced concerns, the group supervisor issued the infamous "schism" email to the group. In essence, the email was a direct threat to the agents who were not in agreement on how Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, or how Group Supervisor Voth managed the investigation. Based on my 18 years of experience with the ATF, I did not think the email was an empty threat. I took it very seriously.

 

"It's been common practice for ATF supervisors to retaliate against employees who do not blindly tow the company line. Sometime in March 2010, at the direction of Group Supervisor Voth, the Case Agent McAllister, daily surveillance of straw purchasers started to be conducted by members of Group 7 as well as ATF special agents from other offices who were detailed to assist with the Operation Fast and Furious.

 

"ATF Field Agent Lawrence Alt reported to the Phoenix 7 group office around this period of time and, like Special Dodson and I, became alarmed of the direction of the investigation and spoke out against the practices that were being utilized.

 

"My role during these daily surveillances was that of shift supervisor. As a shift supervisor, my responsibility was to oversee field agents at the direction of Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, and/or Group Supervisor Dave Voth.

 

"In general, my fears were realized while on these aforementioned surveillances. On numerous cases, the surveillance team followed straw purchasers to Phoenix area firearms dealers and would observe these straw purchasers buy and depart with numerous firearms in hand. Those firearms included but not limited to AK-47s variant rifles, .50 caliber rifles, 5.7 millimeter FM pistols – all of which are devastating weapons.

 

"On many of those occasions the surveillance team would follow the straw purchasers either to residences, a public location, or until the surveillance team was spotted by straw purchasers but the end result was always the same: the surveillance was terminated by the case agent, cold case agent, or supervisor without interdicting or seizing the firearms.

 

"On several occasions, I personally requested to interdict or seize the firearm in such a manner that would only further their investigation, but I was always told to stand down and not to seize the firearms. I made these requests over the air and have many law enforcement witnesses that can verify my assertions.

 

"Reflecting back to that period of time during the investigation, I thought the poor decisions made were due to incompetency or lack of experience, which would have make the situation better. Unfortunately, in light of recent documents released briefing paper dated January 8, 2010, it appears the investigation was conducted in a recklessly planned manner with a specific strategy in mind. Per the briefing paper, the strategy was to allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate in illegal traffic of firearms to Mexican trafficking organizations.

 

"Special Agent Dodson, Special Agent Alt, and I – at times on a daily basis – have warned the Case Agent, the Cold Case Agent, the Group Supervisor of the reckless course they were taking in regards to the investigation. We sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions but were repeatedly ignored. In fact, on at least a couple of occasions, I witnessed Special Agent Dodson asked as both Special Agent McAllister and Group Supervisor Voth if they were prepared to attend the funeral of a slain agent or officer after he or she was killed with one of those straw purchase firearms. Neither one answered or even seemed concerned by the question posed to them.

 

"To close, I'd like to extend my heartfelt condolences to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's family. I'm truly sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace."

 

 

Agent Canino's take on gunwalking

 

Excerpt from the latest committee report:

 

As more information came to light, however, Gil and Canino concluded that hundreds and

hundreds of guns had been walked. These guns ended up in at crime scenes in Mexico, about

which Gil and Canino received extensive briefings. Gil and Canino became incensed when they

finally began to learn about the full scope of Operation Fast and Furious and the investigative

techniques involved:

 

Q. When you first got the impression that this was part of a strategy to

let guns walk into Mexico, what was your reaction to that strategy?

 

A. I wasn't convinced that this happened until this past April after all

the allegations were made, and I talked to different people. I was

beyond shocked. Embarrassed. I was angry. I'm still angry.

Because this is not what we do.

 

* * *

 

That is, I mean, this is the perfect storm of idiocy. That is the

only way I could put it. This is, I mean, this is inconceivable to

me. This is group think gone awry. You know what General

George Patton says, if we are all thinking alike, then nobody is

thinking. Right? Nobody was thinking here. How could anybody

think, hey, let's follow, I mean there is a guy in this case that

bought over 600 guns. At what point do you think you might want

to pull him aside and say, hey, come here for a second.137

 

When Canino himself uncovered hard evidence that ATF had allowed the guns to disappear from

their surveillance he understood the whistleblower allegations were true:

 

Q. Okay, and take us through what happened in April.

 

A. I was here on a visit to headquarters.

 

Q. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters?

 

A. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters, and I was, I was

looking at a, the management log on this case. And the first two

pages, if I'm not mistaken, there are entries there that

chronicle us walking away on three separate occasions from

stash houses.

 

Q. And did that sound to you incredible?

 

A. I stopped reading.

 

Q. So you only got through two pages of this management log?

 

A. Yeah.

 

Q. And then you couldn't read it any longer?

 

A. Didn't want to.

 

Q. Because you were so upset?

 

A. Yes.

 

Q. And you were upset because walking away from three stash houses

struck you as so outrageous?

 

A. Walking away from one, walking away from one gun when you

know that that gun is going to be used in a crime when you, I

mean, there is no, there was no gray area here guys. There was

no gray area here. We knew that these guys were trafficking

guns into Mexico. There is no gray area. They weren't

trafficking, [the] guys weren't going out and buying two Larson 22

pistols. These guys were buying 7.62, 223's, .50 caliber rifles,

okay, there was no mistake about this. This is no gray area.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The deceitful allegation that the F&F guns were not tracked

 

They were not. This is what they did instead:

 

 

Agent Dodson's take:

 

dodsontestimony.gif

 

Testimony of Agent Casa from a little over a year ago:

 

"Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Cummings. Good morning honorable members of Congress. My name is Olindo James Casa, and I'm a senior special agent with the Bureau of ATF.

 

"I've been employed with ATF since March of 1993 as both an inspector and, later, as a special agent. I'm currently assigned to the Phoenix field division, Phoenix Group 7, and also of Strike Force Group. I've been assigned to that group since December 2009 to the present.

 

"As a special agent with the ATF, I've been a case agent, I've been a cold-case agent, and I've participated in many firearms trafficking investigations, both domestic and international in scope. Needless to say, I feel I have extensive experience in regards to firearms trafficking investigations. My work has resulted in the successful prosecution of many individuals who have violated the law.

 

"After reporting to Phoenix Group 7 office in December 2009, I was briefed by group members on the investigation "Fast and Furious." Shortly after, I became aware of what I believed to be unusual and questionable investigative techniques. For instance, I became aware of certain straw purchasers were purchasing numerous firearms from firearm dealers. What I found concerning and alarming was – more times than not – no law enforcement activity was planned to stop these suspected straw purchasers from purchasing firearms. The only law enforcement activity that was occasionally taken was to conduct a surveillance of the transaction and then nothing more.

 

 

"As the investigation progressed over the next couple of months, additional suspected straw purchasers were identified – again with no obvious attempts to interdict the weapons or interview the suspects. Around the same time, Phoenix Group 7′s office was said to receive numerous firearm traces, detailing firearms recoveries in the country of Mexico. Many of those traces disclose aforementioned straw purchasers responsible for purchasing those recovered firearms.

 

"At this time, several special agents in the group, including myself, became increasingly concerned and alarmed at Case Agent Hope McAllister and Group Supervisor Dave Voth's refusal to stop or address the suspected straw purchasers from purchasing additional firearms.

 

"Special Agent John Dodson and I continually raised our concerns directly with the case agent, Cold Case Agent Tonya English, and Group Supervisor Voth, to no avail.

 

"In response to our increasingly voiced concerns, the group supervisor issued the infamous "schism" email to the group. In essence, the email was a direct threat to the agents who were not in agreement on how Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, or how Group Supervisor Voth managed the investigation. Based on my 18 years of experience with the ATF, I did not think the email was an empty threat. I took it very seriously.

 

"It's been common practice for ATF supervisors to retaliate against employees who do not blindly tow the company line. Sometime in March 2010, at the direction of Group Supervisor Voth, the Case Agent McAllister, daily surveillance of straw purchasers started to be conducted by members of Group 7 as well as ATF special agents from other offices who were detailed to assist with the Operation Fast and Furious.

 

"ATF Field Agent Lawrence Alt reported to the Phoenix 7 group office around this period of time and, like Special Dodson and I, became alarmed of the direction of the investigation and spoke out against the practices that were being utilized.

 

"My role during these daily surveillances was that of shift supervisor. As a shift supervisor, my responsibility was to oversee field agents at the direction of Case Agent McAllister, Cold Case Agent English, and/or Group Supervisor Dave Voth.

 

"In general, my fears were realized while on these aforementioned surveillances. On numerous cases, the surveillance team followed straw purchasers to Phoenix area firearms dealers and would observe these straw purchasers buy and depart with numerous firearms in hand. Those firearms included but not limited to AK-47s variant rifles, .50 caliber rifles, 5.7 millimeter FM pistols – all of which are devastating weapons.

 

"On many of those occasions the surveillance team would follow the straw purchasers either to residences, a public location, or until the surveillance team was spotted by straw purchasers but the end result was always the same: the surveillance was terminated by the case agent, cold case agent, or supervisor without interdicting or seizing the firearms.

 

"On several occasions, I personally requested to interdict or seize the firearm in such a manner that would only further their investigation, but I was always told to stand down and not to seize the firearms. I made these requests over the air and have many law enforcement witnesses that can verify my assertions.

 

"Reflecting back to that period of time during the investigation, I thought the poor decisions made were due to incompetency or lack of experience, which would have make the situation better. Unfortunately, in light of recent documents released briefing paper dated January 8, 2010, it appears the investigation was conducted in a recklessly planned manner with a specific strategy in mind. Per the briefing paper, the strategy was to allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate in illegal traffic of firearms to Mexican trafficking organizations.

 

"Special Agent Dodson, Special Agent Alt, and I – at times on a daily basis – have warned the Case Agent, the Cold Case Agent, the Group Supervisor of the reckless course they were taking in regards to the investigation. We sternly warned them of the consequences of their actions but were repeatedly ignored. In fact, on at least a couple of occasions, I witnessed Special Agent Dodson asked as both Special Agent McAllister and Group Supervisor Voth if they were prepared to attend the funeral of a slain agent or officer after he or she was killed with one of those straw purchase firearms. Neither one answered or even seemed concerned by the question posed to them.

 

"To close, I'd like to extend my heartfelt condolences to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's family. I'm truly sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace."

 

 

Agent Canino's take on gunwalking

 

Excerpt from the latest committee report:

 

As more information came to light, however, Gil and Canino concluded that hundreds and

hundreds of guns had been walked. These guns ended up in at crime scenes in Mexico, about

which Gil and Canino received extensive briefings. Gil and Canino became incensed when they

finally began to learn about the full scope of Operation Fast and Furious and the investigative

techniques involved:

 

Q. When you first got the impression that this was part of a strategy to

let guns walk into Mexico, what was your reaction to that strategy?

 

A. I wasn't convinced that this happened until this past April after all

the allegations were made, and I talked to different people. I was

beyond shocked. Embarrassed. I was angry. I'm still angry.

Because this is not what we do.

 

* * *

 

That is, I mean, this is the perfect storm of idiocy. That is the

only way I could put it. This is, I mean, this is inconceivable to

me. This is group think gone awry. You know what General

George Patton says, if we are all thinking alike, then nobody is

thinking. Right? Nobody was thinking here. How could anybody

think, hey, let's follow, I mean there is a guy in this case that

bought over 600 guns. At what point do you think you might want

to pull him aside and say, hey, come here for a second.137

 

When Canino himself uncovered hard evidence that ATF had allowed the guns to disappear from

their surveillance he understood the whistleblower allegations were true:

 

Q. Okay, and take us through what happened in April.

 

A. I was here on a visit to headquarters.

 

Q. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters?

 

A. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms headquarters, and I was, I was

looking at a, the management log on this case. And the first two

pages, if I'm not mistaken, there are entries there that

chronicle us walking away on three separate occasions from

stash houses.

 

Q. And did that sound to you incredible?

 

A. I stopped reading.

 

Q. So you only got through two pages of this management log?

 

A. Yeah.

 

Q. And then you couldn't read it any longer?

 

A. Didn't want to.

 

Q. Because you were so upset?

 

A. Yes.

 

Q. And you were upset because walking away from three stash houses

struck you as so outrageous?

 

A. Walking away from one, walking away from one gun when you

know that that gun is going to be used in a crime when you, I

mean, there is no, there was no gray area here guys. There was

no gray area here. We knew that these guys were trafficking

guns into Mexico. There is no gray area. They weren't

trafficking, [the] guys weren't going out and buying two Larson 22

pistols. These guys were buying 7.62, 223's, .50 caliber rifles,

okay, there was no mistake about this. This is no gray area.

 

 

Again, making an issue of tracking guns on the one hand, while making major efforts on the other to make sure that tracking does not happen illustrates the politics.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I took your distraction over to an NRA actions thread where it belonged, BL, and will talk about your distraction over there if you wish.

 

Over here, the allegation that guns were not tracked in Fast and Furious is more than an allegation. It's a fact, which is why my assertion came with proof from official transcripts while your false assertion had none.

 

Facts show their conservative bias often in this one. :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

I took your distraction over to an NRA actions thread where it belonged, BL, and will talk about your distraction over there if you wish.

 

Over here, the allegation that guns were not tracked in Fast and Furious is more than an allegation. It's a fact, which is why my assertion came with proof from official transcripts while your false assertion had none.

 

Facts show their conservative bias often in this one. :P

 

Sorry Tom, the NRA and its various sycophants cannot talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue. Either Agent Terry and his death is important or the mutual interests of law enforcement are. The rest of us remember Issa proclaiming he wanted hearings 7 days a week for 40 weeks and can deduce what this is all about.

Link to post
Share on other sites