Jump to content

Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation


Recommended Posts

Guest One of Five

We're just not smart enough to understand this. It is a lot like when Nancy Pelosi explained to us that we'd need to pass ACA to be able to see what is in it. On the bright side, we no longer need to worry about backing up our email, Fort Meade does that for us.

 

Xactly, if you need a backup, take comfort that the NSA has it for you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 2.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It's Judge Jackson or Judge Berman Jackson. It isn't Judge Berman unless you're watching reality court TV at the laundromat. Actually, I did mean only those documents. Again, the Kenyan’s EP was

Maybe he'll be nicer now that his period is over.

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under

Posted Images

So I still don't get why the Obama administration supplied weapons to the Mexican Drug Cartel that he's trying to ban here in the US.

 

sorry mate but that's classified..... :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites

All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks..But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the moldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To them, the Black AG is that wall, shoved near. Sometimes they think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks them; he heaps them; They see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what they hate; and be the Black AG agent, or be the Black AG principal, they will wreak that hate upon him.

 

 

Mark, the 1950s ended a long time ago, and I wasn't even born then. You seem to see racism in every issue, but I can find posts back up this thread where even you said this investigation was unbelievably flawed. It was, and people should be held accountable. No one has been. The only person in the White House known to have communicated with Newell about the operation should be interviewed by the IG and Congress.

 

Now come back and make another post indicating those must be racially motivated thoughts. Or, if your deck has non-race cards, play one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks..But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the moldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To them, the Black AG is that wall, shoved near. Sometimes they think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks them; he heaps them; They see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what they hate; and be the Black AG agent, or be the Black AG principal, they will wreak that hate upon him.

 

 

Mark, the 1950s ended a long time ago, and I wasn't even born then. You seem to see racism in every issue, but I can find posts back up this thread where even you said this investigation was unbelievably flawed. It was, and people should be held accountable. No one has been. The only person in the White House known to have communicated with Newell about the operation should be interviewed by the IG and Congress.

 

Now come back and make another post indicating those must be racially motivated thoughts. Or, if your deck has non-race cards, play one.

 

Ahab didn't hate the whale for being white. It's a story of obsession.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to think that my problem is "the Black AG" but really my problem is what the government did and the fact no one has been able to investigate the story completely and no one has been held accountable. It's not about a person or a race, it's about competent and responsible government.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest One of Five

Mark, the 1950s ended a long time ago, and I wasn't even born then. You seem to see racism in every issue, but I can find posts back up this thread where even you said this investigation was unbelievably flawed. It was, and people should be held accountable. No one has been. The only person in the White House known to have communicated with Newell about the operation should be interviewed by the IG and Congress.

 

Now come back and make another post indicating those must be racially motivated thoughts. Or, if your deck has non-race cards, play one.

 

That's really fucked up. Someone invested in racism like that never gets cured.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Methinks you only care about Operation Fast and Furious. Why is that?

 

I'd bet you still will not talk about what the Inspector General had to say about stuff related to Fast and Furious that went on in 2011 and 2012, but I already did that and won.

 

 

When Holder says he didn't know about this dumb idea from the Phoenix office, I take his word for it.

 

As per Issa, I thought Issa was a bomb thrower before this and since he's been involved I haven't taken it seriously.

We agree on the first part, as I noted above, but that's 2010 stuff and earlier.

 

As fer Issa, he is not the only one to take this seriously. I take it you also dismiss the Inspector General's office as bomb throwers, or do you have some comment on their work?

Hey Olsonist, I'll bet you twenty bucks you won't go to the gunwalking thread and give me your opinions on 2011-2012 administration actions. :P

I did ask over in the betting thread for reactions to both 2011 (look to what Holder did in May, among other things) and 2012 (retaliation against whistleblowers) administration actions. A reaction to administration activity in 2010 plus a partisan bomb toss toward Issa do not qualify. Should I PM you my address, or can you just find it yourself online?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. He should have mentioned Operations Wide Receiver I and II. Issa doesn't seem to care much about Wide Receiver either. Why is that?

 

There is plenty to talk about in those operations. As I have mentioned repeatedly, it's almost miraculous that partisans like yourself can see the connection between Wide Receiver but White House staffers could not make that same connection.

 

I don't believe they failed to see the connection you see so easily. Do you believe it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Three more weapons from Fast and Furious have turned up at crime scenes in Mexico, CBS News has learned, as the toll from the controversial federal operation grows.

 

According to Justice Department tracing documents obtained by CBS News, all three guns are WASR-10 762-caliber Romanian rifles. Two were purchased by Fast and Furious suspect Uriel Patino in May and July of 2010. Sean Steward, who was convicted on gun charges in July 2012, purchased a third. The rifles were traced yesterday to the Lone Wolf gun shop in Glendale, Ariz.

 

During Fast and Furious and similar operations, federal agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) encouraged the Lone Wolf and other gun stores to sell massive amounts of weapons to questionable purchasers who allegedly trafficked them Mexican drug cartels.

 

Patino is said to have purchased 700 guns while under ATF's watch. Ever since, a steady stream of the guns have been recovered at crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S. But the Justice Department has refused repeated requests from Congress and CBS News to provide a full accounting. An estimated 1,400 guns are still on the street or unaccounted for.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57598487/more-fast-and-furious-guns-surface-at-crimes-in-mexico/

Jack,

 

The Fast n Furious thread is over here. That other one is about a more recent fuckup in Milwaukee.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's what the guy who sold 450 weapons in Operation Wide Receiver thought about the operation and about Gunwalker Bill Newell.

 

 

“All I can tell you is what the first prosecutor on OWR told me,” he answered. “A couple years after the case ended we met a gun show. He and his son purchased rifles from me and I handed him a business card.”

 

“When I mentioned Wide Receiver he knew who I was immediately and we talked over an hour,” Detty recalled. “‘I can't believe those f-ing ATF guys had you selling guns from your house-you're lucky to be alive,’ the prosecutor said. When I asked why OWR was never prosecuted he told me, ‘ATF lied to me about the Mexican's cooperation. I don't mean the field agents you worked with, I mean at a higher level. Once I found out that the case was based on a lie I declined it. Why would I go into court with a case where I have to sacrifice my personal integrity and credibility because ATF lied.’"

 

“I've been saying it to anyone who will listen,” Detty added, “Bill Newell [Phoenix Special Agent in Charge] was politically motivated. He saw himself running ATF one day and thought that he'd score points by bringing big headlines and obtaining increased funding for his agency. Despite the poor results of OWR no one at DOJ stopped him or even admonished him. Why wouldn't he do it again on a grander level when he had Dennis Burke (one of the authors of the original 'assault weapons' ban and aide to Janet Napolitano when she was governor of Arizona) as his US Attorney? There is only one conclusion that could be made and that is American guns showing up at crime scenes in Mexico and in Mexican hands here in the U.S. would be the ammunition they needed to push for more gun control.”

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, I thought this was 'Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation'. Now it's the child of some jackwagon with too much ambition? Wow, never saw that coming. </sarc>

 

Jason Weinstein was unable to make the connection that Olsonist, you, and others have made so easily between Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious. Or he was lying. Which do you think it is?

 

Here's a remedial course in the facts, since you probably have not read this thread, let alone the Inspector General's report on this operation.

 

The Washington Post said:

Weinstein, along with a handful of other Justice Department lawyers, agreed to help prepare a response. Trading drafts and editing suggestions by e-mail, Weinstein and others at Justice relied on information they gathered from at least nine officials from ATF and the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona. All insisted that guns had not “walked.”

 

“ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico,” the department replied in February 2011.

 

The information turned out to be wrong.

 

...

 

In his formal response to Horowitz, Bromwich wrote that Weinstein was being held to an “impossible standard.” He said Weinstein could not possibly have connected the dots between the two cases because he was repeatedly assured by the people closest to the Fast and Furious investigation, including ATF’s McMahon, that no guns had “walked.”

To do so, Bromwich wrote, would have required an “ability to divine that McMahon was unintentionally conveying inaccurate information about Fast and Furious.”

None of the three deputies who signed off on Fast and Furious wiretap applications saw anything that raised concerns. And the specific numbers of guns mentioned did not necessarily indicate gun-walking, Weinstein told the IG.

 

“No one could read those summaries and know that they let guns go,” Weinstein said.

 

In helping draft what turned out to be an inaccurate response to Congress, Weinstein said he had no reason to doubt the people telling him that guns had not walked.

 

He said the earlier investigation, Wide Receiver, did not cross his mind.

One of the smartest lawyers in America could not make the connection that just about every anti-gun propagandist has made: that Project Gunrunner's Wide Receiver (run by Newell) might just have some connection to Project Gunrunner's Fast and Furious (run by Newell). Not credible.

 

The Inspector General had this to say about Weinstein:

We determined that several lawyers in the Department’s Criminal Division had some knowledge about Operation Fast and Furious during 2010. The most senior of these lawyers, DAAG Weinstein, obtained information about the case during that time period but did not recognize any of the “red flags” which indicated that “gun walking” might have been occurring. We found that given his level of knowledge about the investigation and his familiarity with the “gun walking” tactics employed by ATF in Operation Wide Receiver, Weinstein was the most senior person in the Department in 2010 who was in a position to identify the similarity between the inappropriate tactics used in Operations Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious.

 

 

 

 

We also found that Assistant Attorney General Breuer, who learned in April 2010 about the “gun walking” tactics used in Operation Wide Receiver, did not learn about Operation Fast and Furious and the allegations about the use of improper investigative tactics in that investigation until after Sen. Grassley’s January 27 letter. His lack of knowledge about Operation Fast and Furious in 2010 was primarily due, we found, to Weinstein’s failure to inform him about the case.

 

...

 

 

 

 

We were troubled given the context of the meeting that neither Weinstein nor Trusty asked more questions about Operation Fast and Furious to ensure that their understanding was correct that the case did not involve tactics like those used in Operation Wide Receiver, and that they did not convey in forceful terms the Criminal Division’s view that such tactics were unacceptable and would not be condoned. As we discuss below, we were particularly concerned with Weinstein’s failure to probe the matter given his position and responsibilities as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General and the fact that this meeting was the result of concerns that he had raised about Operation Wide Receiver.

 

...

 

 

 

 

We further found that, given DAAG Weinstein’s heightened awareness of the “gun-walking” issues in Operation Wide Receiver and his knowledge of Operation Fast and Furious, his review of the first OEO cover memorandum that he received should have caused him to read the affidavit and ask questions about the operational details of Operation Fast and Furious. We found that, in this respect, Weinstein was in a unique position among the Criminal Division reviewers of the wiretap applications in Operation Fast and Furious.

 

...

 

 

 

 

We believe that the information contained in these OEO memoranda was similar to that which caused Weinstein to question whether agents in Operation Wide Receiver had allowed guns to “walk.” ...

 

 

 

 

Weinstein already knew when he received the memoranda that Operation Fast and Furious targeted “a gun-trafficking ring responsible for sending well over 1,000 guns across the SWB [southwest Border] into Mexico.” Even given his practice of rarely reading wiretap affidavits, under these circumstances we believe Weinstein should have learned enough from the OEO memoranda to both cause him to read the affidavit and to ask ATF or U.S. Attorney’s Office personnel further questions about the investigation to ensure that ATF was not again conducting an investigation that failed to interdict weapons that agents had observed being bought by known straw purchasers.

 

Weinstein told us that his experience with Operation Wide Receiver did not cause him to look beyond the OEO cover memorandum in authorizing the May 21 Operation Fast and Furious wiretap application because he believed that the tactics employed in Operation Wide Receiver were an “extreme aberration” that occurred under the prior administration and he could not imagine that they would be repeated. He also stated that he understood from McMahon’s description of Operation Fast and Furious that McMahon was under the impression that agents were aggressively seizing guns. In addition, Weinstein told us that the information in the May 21 OEO cover memorandum provided evidence to him of what he was looking for – probable cause that the phone in question had been used for criminal purposes. He also stated that the memorandum’s silence on the efforts to interdict was not unusual because such memoranda are not written to provide all the facts about the investigation.

 

We did not find this explanation persuasive. In short, given Weinstein’s awareness of the gun-walking issue, his knowledge about Operation Fast and Furious, and his experience with law enforcement issues arising from the flow of guns to violent Mexican cartels, the information in the OEO cover memorandum should have been a “red flag” to him to examine Operation Fast and Furious more closely.

Obviously, the OIG agrees with me that he could have and should have seen the similarities between the two Project Gunrunner programs run by Newell.

 

I'm only about halfway through the OIG references to Weinstein's involvement, but that's enough for today. More later...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Ran across some vintage irony in another thread that really belongs in this one:

 

 

Did you hear Obama use "groupthink" yesterday!!

Obama:

“One of the dangers in a White House, based on my reading of history, is that you get wrapped up in groupthink, and everybody agrees with everything, and there's no discussion and there are not dissenting views,” Obama said, voicing a frequent criticism by some senior Bush-administration alumni.
“So I'm going to be welcoming a vigorous debate inside the White House. But I understand, I will be setting policy as president. I will be responsible for the vision that this team carries out, and I expect them to implement that vision, once decisions are made. So as Harry Truman said, the buck will stop with me."

 

Except he says he didn't set the policy, was not responsible for the vision, and the Fast and Furious buck seems to have stopped with a couple of guys who were allowed to resign with no further questions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Judge Denies DOJ Motion for Dismissal of Fast and Furious Coverup Lawsuit


The lawsuit was filed shortly after Attorney General Eric Holder was held in contempt of Congress for failing to turn over requested Fast and Furious documents to Congress and after President Obama asserted executive privilege over documents despite denying any involvement in the operation.

 

"This ruling is a repudiation of the Obama Justice Department and Congressional Democrats who argued the courts should have no role in the dispute over President Obama's improper assertion of executive privilege to protect an attempted Justice Department cover-up of Operation Fast and Furious,” Chairman of the House Oversight Committee Darrell Issa said in a statement. “I remain confident in the merits of the House's decision to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt; this ruling is an important step toward the transparency and accountability the Obama Administration has refused to provide."

 

Senator Chuck Grassley, who has been investigating Operation Fast and Furious since early 2011, also released a statement.

 

“This is an important step toward ensuring that Congress’ constitutional responsibility to provide oversight of the executive branch is vindicated. The President’s sweeping assertion of executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents is completely contrary to the transparent government that he promised and beyond any valid claim of privilege under the law," Grassley said. "The documents subpoenaed by the House of Representatives are essential to gaining a full understanding of the gunwalking program that led to the tragic death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent and the efforts to keep the truth about it from Congress and the American people. Given that its refusal to comply with the subpoena is unlikely to survive legal scrutiny, I fully expect the Obama administration to continue to put up procedural roadblocks to resolving this dispute. However, I look forward to the court finally deciding the case on the merits.”

 

At this point, there has not been a ruling from Jackson about whether Obama's executive privilege will stand. A ruling on whether executive privilege applies to the Fast and Furious documents in question is expected within the next two weeks.

 

 

Another article on the same subject


The decision from Jackson, an Obama appointee, largely tracked with a ruling U.S. District Court Judge John Bates — a President George W. Bush appointee — rendered in 2008 in a similar fight over records pertaining to Bush’s dismissal of a batch of U.S. attorneys in 2006.

 

In the face of largely identical arguments from the Justice Department, Bates concluded he had authority to resolve a disagreement between the House Judiciary Committee and the Bush White House. The Bush administration appealed, but no decision was ever issued by the appeals court because the dispute was settled after Bush left office in 2009.

 

Jackson called the Justice Department’s arguments in the current case “flawed and selective.” And she said the parade of horrible outcomes executive branch lawyers predicted during the Bush-era fight — involving frequent recourse to the courts by Congress — simply hasn’t materialized.

 

“One cannot help but observe that in the five years that have elapsed since [bates’s] decision, the dire consequences prophesied by the Department have not come to pass,” the judge wrote.

 

I'm pretty sure I like this judge. She seems to think that principles that applied to Bush apply equally to Obama.

Link to post
Share on other sites

ATF tries to block Fast and Furious whistle-blower from publishing book

 

Greg Serres, an ATF ethics official, told Dodson that any of his supervisors at any level could disapprove outside employment "for any reason."


Serres letter said: "This would have a negative impact on morale in the Phoenix Field Division and would have a detremental effect [sic] on our relationships with DEA and FBI."


The national office of the American Civil Liberties Association is representing Dodson as he fights the decision. ACLU attorney Lee Rowland says the agency's restriction is overly broad.


Rather than provide a specific objection which would allow for a line-by-line redaction, ATF used a policy that "grants supervisors the discretion to censor critical speech simply because it annoys or embarrasses the ATF," Rowland wrote in a letter delivered Monday.

 

Censorship is bad, sometimes. Thanks, Obama.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Continuing with the theme that whistleblowers will be punished while stonewallers will be rewarded, one of the guys who should have stopped Fast and Furious is now Special Agent In Charge in Boston.

 

And a bit more on the same theme:

 

No outside work for whistleblowers, stonewallers can take outside work and not bother with their ATF jobs any more, even though still getting paid.


The argument made for the denial was that the publication of Dodson's book would have a negative impact on morale. In addition, ATF hasn't investigated whether Dodson will be compensated for the book.

 

"ATF has never even asked me if I'm getting paid for the book," Dodson said to Townhall.

 

Yesterday Chairman of the House Oversight Committee Darrell Issa and Ranking Member of the Senate Judiciary Committee sent a letter to ATF Director B. Todd Jones pointing out the approval of an outside employment request from former Deputy Assistant Director of Field Operations and Fast and Furious Supervisor Bill McMahon, who worked a six-figure security job at J.P. Morgan while on taxpayer funded administrative leave.

 

"McMahon was among the leadership officials at ATF which the Inspector General faulted for his management of Operation Fast and Furious. Yet, when he submitted a request in the summer of 2012 to begin an outside security job at J.P. Morgan, ATF leadership quickly approved it. Once ATF Granted McMahon's approval, he moved his job in the Philippines and never again showed up for work at ATF. During this time period, he remained on ATF's payroll for several more months, effectively collecting a substantial six-figure salary from both the taxpayers and J.P. Morgan simultaneously," Issa and Grassley said in the letter. "Because we strongly support the efforts of whistleblowers to expose waste, fraud, mismanagement, and abuse within the federal government, we find it disconcerting that ATF denied Special Agent Dodson's request merely because the content of his book might be uncomfortable and embarrassing to some within your organization...In short, there appears to be no basis for denying Special Agent Dodson's request under the OGE regulation. The sole motivation appears to be that certain officials still believe that information about Operation Fast and Furious is embarrassing to ATF."

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like the ACLU got the administration censors to back off.

 

Dodson will be allowed to publish his book, but not profit from it

 

Dodson's supervisors in the ATF's Phoenix office earlier rejected his request to seek a publisher for his book in part because they said it would have "a negative impact on morale," and "a detremental effect (sic) on (ATF) relationships" with other agencies, the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration.

 

In an October 8 interview with Chris Cuomo, host of CNN's "New Day," Dodson rejected the claims about morale or about the ATF's relationship with other agencies. "I think what happened, what we were doing, what the agency was doing, the Phoenix field division, the operation itself, I think that is what is harmful for morale," Dodson said. "I think that is what is a detriment -- to not only our relationship with other federal agencies, but our relationship with the American people and their trust in us."

 

He's right. That's why he must be censored and punished whenever possible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Another brilliant Phoenix ATF operation involved a guy who was apparently re-manufacturing grenades for the Mexican cartels. Interestingly, Agent Canino, quoted above, warned these guys not to walk grenades. They did it anyway.

 

 

The plan to allow Kingery to traffic grenade parts into a foreign country and track him to his factory drew strong internal objections.

 

"That's not possible," wrote a lead ATF official in Mexico. "We are forbidden from doing that type of activity. If ICE is telling you they can do that, they are full of [expletive]..."

 

ATF officials in Mexico worried that once Kingery and the grenades crossed the border, they would disappear. And that's exactly what happened.

...

 

One of Kingery's grenades turned up.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

The Terry family's lawsuit was dismissed.

 

A wrongful death lawsuit brought by the family of slain Border Patrol agent Brian Terry has been dismissed by a federal judge on the grounds that a court settlement would interfere with the powers of the U.S. government, which has a compensation scheme of its own.

...

Last year Terry's parents, Kent and Josephine Terry, filed a $25 million wrongful-death claim against prosecutors and ATF agents alleging they acted in violation of their own policies and that so-called "Fast and Furious" operation negligently allowed the weapons to be bought by violent criminals.

In a written ruling released on Friday, District Judge David G. Campbell found that federal law and prior U.S. Supreme Court rulings barred such damages because the U.S. Congress has passed laws providing compensation - including death benefits - for survivors of federal officers killed in the line of duty.

...

An attorney representing Terry's family said they planned to appeal the ruling.

Robert Heyer, Brian Terry's cousin and the chairman of the foundation set up in the fallen agent's name, said the family was disappointed by the ruling.

"We're reading over his order and it appears that he has ruled strictly on a technicality. He has not considered the basis of the claim that said that ATF and the U.S. Attorney's office had created a danger in their pursuit of this gun trafficking operation," Heyer told Reuters by telephone.

"This has never been about a financial amount, this is about gaining justice and holding those individuals accountable for their actions," he added.

...

 

Congressional Republicans slammed the government for the program, and called on Attorney General Eric Holder to resign. The program also strained ties between the Mexican and U.S. governments.

 

The Inspector General also slammed the government for the program, and the votes finding Holder in civil and criminal contempt of Congress included Democrats, but for some reason the Chicago Tribune didn't notice those facts or didn't find them significant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The legal battle over Obama's claim of Executive Privilege in Fast and Furious looks like it will go on for months or possibly years.

 

Judge Denies Holder's Appeal

 

A federal judge has refused Attorney General Eric Holder's request that he be allowed to proceed now with an appeal in a case where the House of Representatives is seeking to enforce subpoenas for documents related to the controversial Operation Fast and Furious gun investigation.

...

Jackson's latest ruling means it is likely the Justice Department will have to produce a detailed log of what was withheld from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and why. Rounds of protracted litigation over the legitimacy of the withholdings seem all but certain, unless the sides come to an agreement which has heretofore eluded them.

...

Jackson noted that while she was turning down Holder's request for an immediate appeal, she has yet to rule on whether any documents have been improperly withheld from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee under a claim of executive privilege from President Barack Obama. If she makes such a finding, an appeal would be open at the conclusion of the case.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Ho hum.

 

Another Fast and Furious gun at a crime scene, and The Hill continues to mischaracterize the operation.

 

 

The now-defunct Fast and Furious program began in 2009 and was run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Agents allowed low-level weapons purchasers to cross the Mexican border in an attempt to expose trafficking routes used by Mexican cartels. But the agency ultimately lost track of some weapons

 

Uh, no, for the umpteenth time, they did not "ultimately lose track" of "some" weapons. Losing track of the weapons was the operational plan. That's what happens when you allow a straw purchase and watch the buyer leave.

 

What else happens is, you encourage gun dealers to commit crimes, then charge them with those crimes and make up new crimes they did not even commit.

 

Richard A. Serrano of the LA Times reported,

“But his lawyers won him a new sentencing hearing after discrepancies arose because some of the weapons were
mislabeled as machine guns
. Federal prosecutor Steven R. Spitzer acknowledged the discrepancy, but urged U.S. District Judge Robert C. Brack to keep Garland in prison because he had been “conspiring” with the smugglers in Columbus. Instead, the judge released him.” [emphasis added]

The question begs to be asked. How is it possible that Garland’s legal weapons were “mislabeled as machine guns”? And how is it remotely possible that this “discrepancy” never was revealed during Garland’s trial?

 

 

Calling semi-automatic guns "machine guns" is a common ploy used by gun controllers when trying to mislead the public, but it is surprising that this deception made it all the way through a court trial. I guess it shows the penetrating power of propaganda.

 

At least the system finally worked for this guy and he was released.

 

Now, if only the perpetrators of Fast and Furious were punished, along with those who lied to Congress about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

More on the Ian Garland case:


Ian Garland, former owner of the now defunct Chaparral Guns store, initially was sentenced to 60 months in prison, mainly because the weapons attributed to him in the smuggling case were characterized as "machine guns," when they were not automatic weapons, according to court documents.

 

A U.S. district magistrate in New Mexico agreed in October that the wrong sentencing guidelines were applied to Garland, and recommended that he be given a new sentencing hearing.

 

Court records show that Garland had the new sentencing hearing on Dec. 13, and was sentenced to 37 months for each of the seven counts of which he was convicted, with the sentences to run concurrently. This is to be followed by three years of supervised release.

 

Garland was arrested in March 2011 after he and 10 others were indicted by a federal grand jury. He was denied release on bond, and had been confined since his arrest. The other defendants included the mayor, police chief and a trustee of Columbus.

 

He was sentenced on May 24, 2012, to 60 months in prison followed by three years of supervised release, according to court records.

Court documents indicate that the error in sentencing guidelines could affect other defendants who were similarly charged and convicted.

 

...

 

Garland contends that the government should never have prosecuted him for facilitating the straw purchases of numerous weapons because he did nothing wrong.

 

"I've sold guns to people who are in law enforcement, and in the case of the Columbus, New Mexico, group, I sold guns to officials like the mayor and police chief, who were legally able to make such purchases," Garland said. "They kept making purchases, and when I asked why they wanted them, they said that they were also buying guns for their families to protect themselves against the drug cartel."

 

Garland said he filled out the correct paperwork required for firearms purchases, including the background checks, and submitted forms that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives required.

 

"If anything, during an audit of my records, the ATF told me I was over-documenting my transactions," Garland said. "I told them everything that was going on, and they (ATF) told me to keep on selling (the firearms)."

 

Garland may have a hard time proving his meticulous record-keeping, because the government seized all the records for his gun store, and has sealed other documents related to the gun-smuggling cases.

 

..."All this happened because of the government's stupid 'Fast and Furious' operation," Garland said. "I was scapegoated. I was used. The government was going to look bad if everyone could see that I was allowed to continue selling weapons to the people of Columbus. I did not know that these people planned to sell or give the weapons to the Mexican cartels, but the government did, and the government never told me so..."

 

Others were similarly charged and convicted?

 

I can not believe that the government simply made a mistake and thought they were dealing with machine guns when in fact they were not. Machine guns are treated very differently under the law. In several different cases, they claimed to be dealing with machine guns when they were not, resulting in much stiffer sentences for the defendants. Once might be a mistake. Several times can not be. The perpetrator of this false imprisonment should be identified and imprisoned. We should probably even claim at sentencing that he did something far worse than he actually did. Maybe some undeserved years in prison would help him figure out that lying in order to lock people up is wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The US Govt and the Sinaloa Cartel

 

"The DEA agents met with members of the cartel in Mexico to obtain information about their rivals and simultaneously built a network of informants who sign drug cooperation agreements, subject to results, to enable them to obtain future benefits, including cancellation of charges in the U.S.," reports El Universal, which also interviewed more than one hundred active and retired police officers as well as prisoners and experts.

 

Zambada-Niebla's lawyer claimed to the court that in the late 1990s, Castro struck a deal with U.S. agents in which Sinaloa would provide information about rival drug trafficking organizations while the U.S. would dismiss its case against the Sinaloa lawyer and refrain from interfering with Sinaloa drug trafficking activities or actively prosecuting Sinaloa leadership.

 

"The agents stated that this arrangement had been approved by high-ranking officials and federal prosecutors," Zambada-Niebla lawyer wrote.

 

After being extradited to Chicago in February 2010, Zambada-Niebla argued that he was also "immune from arrest or prosecution" because he actively provided information to U.S. federal agents.

 

Zambada-Niebla also alleged that Operation Fast and Furious was part of an agreement to finance and arm the cartel in exchange for information used to take down its rivals. (If true, that re-raises the issue regarding what Attorney General Eric Holder knew about the gun-running arrangements.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Issa's only job is to try to turn everything into a 'gate, but so far all he has come up with are 'ghazi's.

 

The difference is 'gate's are real scandals and 'gahzi's are the ones that have been proved not to be scandals in his committee hearings, but he goes right on pretending that didn't happen anyway.

 

 

 

This post is just way funnier in this thread, where all the evidence of bad management and lying that the Inspector General noted are posted for all to see.

 

Yeah, I know, just like Chris Christie, he was unaware anything was wrong and his administration taking most of a year to come clean with the American people on the fact that the ATF walked guns was just because they were confused.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Issa's only job is to try to turn everything into a 'gate, but so far all he has come up with are 'ghazi's.

 

The difference is 'gate's are real scandals and 'gahzi's are the ones that have been proved not to be scandals in his committee hearings, but he goes right on pretending that didn't happen anyway.

 

 

 

This post is just way funnier in this thread, where all the evidence of bad management and lying that the Inspector General noted are posted for all to see.

 

Yeah, I know, just like Chris Christie, he was unaware anything was wrong and his administration taking most of a year to come clean with the American people on the fact that the ATF walked guns was just because they were confused.

 

Yeah dumbass Mark’s funnier then a barrel of monkeys… :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like the ACLU got the administration censors to back off.

 

Dodson will be allowed to publish his book, but not profit from it

 

Dodson's supervisors in the ATF's Phoenix office earlier rejected his request to seek a publisher for his book in part because they said it would have "a negative impact on morale," and "a detremental effect (sic) on (ATF) relationships" with other agencies, the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration.

 

In an October 8 interview with Chris Cuomo, host of CNN's "New Day," Dodson rejected the claims about morale or about the ATF's relationship with other agencies. "I think what happened, what we were doing, what the agency was doing, the Phoenix field division, the operation itself, I think that is what is harmful for morale," Dodson said. "I think that is what is a detriment -- to not only our relationship with other federal agencies, but our relationship with the American people and their trust in us."

 

He's right. That's why he must be censored and punished whenever possible.

 

I forgot about the underwear gnomes. But, the F35 proves you don't need a phase 2.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Accountability Means Sweetheart Deals for stonewallers, for whistleblowers... not so much.

 

A letter sent today from Sen. Chuck Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa to B. Todd Jones, Acting Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, asked how “a top ATF official involved in Operation Fast and Furious…can remain on paid leave while simultaneously drawing an additional six figure salary from a major financial services company,” a House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform release announced.

 

...

 

“Under any reading of the relevant personnel regulations, it appears that ATF management was under no obligation to approve this sort of arrangement. Given McMahon’s outsized role in the Fast and Furious scandal, the decision to approve an extended annual leave arrangement in order to attain pension eligibility and facilitate full-time, outside employment while still collecting a full-time salary at ATF raises a host of questions about both the propriety of the arrangement and the judgment of ATF management.

 

“ATF has essentially facilitated McMahon’s early retirement and ability to double dip for nearly half a year by receiving two full-time paychecks—one from the taxpayer and one from the private sector,” the letter maintained. “Moreover, ATF did not wait for the Office of Inspector General to complete its report on Fast and Furious before approving the arrangement.

 

“This is in sharp contrast to the posture the agency has taken with whistleblowers like Special Agent John Dodson, who is told he must wait until the Inspector General’s report is complete before the agency will even consider his simple request for a statement retracting the false statements made about him by agency leadership,” the letter pointed out.

McMahon's second job? Working for JP Morgan.

 

Man, that set off a rant!

 

>

“J.P.Morgan has ATF's credit card account,” one source contacting this correspondent volunteered. “No big surprise that McMahon landed in a cushy job there.

 

...

 

“Wait a minute,” whistle-blowing agent and author of “No Angel, My Harrowing Undercover Journey to the Inner Circle of the Hells Angels” Jay Dobyns wrote to ATF and Department of Justice lawyers and managers in an email this morning, referencing the McMahon report. “ATF and DOJ are suing me for over a half million dollars for an alleged violation of ATF’s media policy and alleged violations of my outside employment agreement while at the same time sanctioning McMahon to work full time outside of ATF?

“The charges against me a fabricated, embellished are nothing more than a retaliatory prosecution, and McMahon gets greased?” Dobyns continued.

 

 

Maybe Dobyns is a bit less pissed now...

 

ATF Now Promoting Book It Tried To Kill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Mexican citizens are tired of Mexican gun control and the fact that only the government and gangsters have guns. Regrettably, it has gone on long enough that all they have are shitty old bolt action rifles and shotguns, but those can at least be some help when combined with determination.

 

 

The Mexican government realized they were fighting the wrong people

 

 

In a sudden turnaround this week, the Mexican government will provide vigilante groups fighting a drug cartel in western Mexico a path to become recognized, moving away from earlier calls for the groups to disarm.

 

The state of Michoacan, long a flashpoint in Mexico's drug war, has of late been the scene of fighting between a cartel calling itself the Knights Templar and so-called "auto-defense" groups that have armed themselves and patrolled the streets.

The vigilante groups grew from complaints that the government was not doing enough to protect citizens from the drug cartel. The government acted this month, sending federal forces to the region and ordering the vigilante groups to lay down their weapons.

But Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto appears to have abandoned that call, and instead announced a plan wherein the vigilante forces -- if they meet certain criteria -- can become part of a government-sanctioned Rural Defense Corps.

 

This sort of deserves a hat tip, but really, a group of people decide that the government can't/won't protect them from the cartel violence so they'll protect themselves and the official response was to take their rusty rifles away to try to stop them?

 

Odd that the government would do exactly what the cartels want and disarm their enemies. Almost like the cartels owned the government... I'm glad to see at least some sign that is not the case, but disarming citizens who were not hurting anyone was stupid and all they've really done is to stop doing something stupid. Not quite hat tip worthy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This article about the sentencing hearing for Manuel Osorio-Arellanes almost described Fast and Furious correctly

 

They came a lot closer than the SPL (Standard Party Line) description of "a sting in which agents lost track of guns."

 

Terry's stepmother, Carolyn Terry, said Osorio-Arellanes' upcoming sentencing won't give the family any closure. "We don't know what happened to him out there that night," she said, noting her family and their attorney are still looking for answers.

Federal authorities who conducted "Fast and Furious" have faced tough criticism for allowing suspected straw gun buyers for a smuggling ring to walk away from gun shops in Arizona with weapons, rather than arrest them and seize the guns.

 

That's almost true, but for most of the duration of the operation those people were known, not suspected, straw buyers. Also, the dealers and the ATF knew they were straw buyers and ATF encouraged dealers to break the law by making those sales anyway, so they were not just allowing the criminals to proceed with their crimes but also making criminals out of gun dealers who were reluctant to break the law.

 

As for the Terry family, I'd say they have their answer: Obama will not give up his (dubious) claim of Executive Privilege over the information about this operation that Congress has been seeking, so it will continue to wind through the courts. All of which is that foot-dragger Issa's fault, of course, so the Terry family should blame him for the administration's stonewalling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Darn noisy family members of slain agents!

 

Brian Terry's Brother Writes To Eric Holder

 

In his letter, Mr. Terry wrote, Breitbart.com reported: “Mr. Holder, I am going to get right to the point of this letter. I am not pleased with your behavior as America’s Attorney General. Simply denying that you had no knowledge about Operation Fast and Furious is troubling in itself, but for you to not comply with Congress is even more troubling. It is shocking to know that the Attorney General of the United States had no knowledge or was not made aware of Fast and Furious until after the death of my brother, Brian Terry.”

He then asked why Mr. Holder has not held anyone in his department, or in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, accountable for his brother’s 2010 murder.

“For you, Mr. Holder, to be so ill served by your own advisers on your watch is unbelievable,” he wrote, Breitbart reported. “If that is the case, then you would think there would be accountability to your so called advisers who did not inform you. Where is the accountability Mr. Holder?”

 

I have the same question, particularly in regard to Jason Weinstein, who just could not grasp the connection between Project Gunrunner's Operation Wide Receiver, in which Bill Newell and company walked guns, and Project Gunrunner's Operation Fast and Furious, in which Bill Newell and company walked guns.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

ATF Meets Congress' Deadline For Release of Fast and Furious Materials

 

"Released" in their usual form, that is...

 

issa-redactedw.jpg


Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) Director Todd Jones today met a 5 p.m. deadline to provide Congress with some information related to disciplinary action, or lack thereof, against key players involved in ATF’s Fast and Furious gunwalking case.

 

That’s according to an official with the House Oversight Committee who says committee members haven't yet thoroughly reviewed the materials but that they are often “highly redacted.”

 

Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) set the deadline in a letter to Jones last week asking why several ATF employees blamed by the Inspector General for mismanagement or misconduct 19 months ago still work for ATF and apparently haven’t been disciplined, or if they have, why the information hasn’t been made public. The employees are: ATF Fast and Furious case agent Hope MacAllister, former ATF Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations William McMahon, and ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell.

 

The interminable wait for accountability continues...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The above article also references Dennis Burke's reprimand for his illegal attempt to smear Agent Dodson.

 

Another one who was allowed to resign instead of facing any accountability for his actions. Here's the official copy:

 

http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0328-burke.pdf#page=4&zoom=auto,0,176

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is pretty astonishing.

 

AZ Newspaper Says Burke Should Have Been Commended, Not Reprimanded

 

They think he was a "whistleblower" who "cleared the air" when he illegally leaked incomplete and misleading information in an attempt to defame the real whistleblowers and derail the investigation. He was actually a stonewalling scum, same as when he lied to the Terry family about Brian's murder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, the honesty factor of Burke lying to Brian Terry's family is roughly on par with the honesty factor of the title of this thread.

 

Your whole crusade on Fast and Furious has never smelled right to me, primarily because the right hand can't hamstring the BATFE and federal prosecutors, while the left hand demands effective results. But I've never bothered to dig into the details.

 

It didn't take much digging for the smell of your "Fast and Furious" obsession to putrify. It took a cup of coffee, not a pot of coffee, Tom.

 

Fortune MagAZINE'S F&F review, June, 2012

Fortune Magazine looked at this for six months. This posting is a review of their work. My comments or transitions are in italics.

I encourage all to read the article--here it is:

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/>

 

...The public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies.

 

Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case.

 

Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.

 

Voth arrived in Phoenix in December 2009 only to discover that his group had not been funded. The group had little equipment and no long guns, electronic devices, or binoculars, forcing Voth to scrounge for supplies.

 

Voth's group effectively divided into two clashing factions: the Sunshine Bears and the Renegades.

 

Lying on the forms (the handwritten, not-to-be-computerized 4473's) is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.)

 

"[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."

...Agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

 

Agents could not seize guns or arrest suspects after being directed not to do so by a prosecutor. (Agents can be sued if they seize a weapon against prosecutors' advice. In this case, the agents had a particularly strong obligation to follow the prosecutors' direction given that Fast and Furious had received a special designation under the Justice Department's Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. That designation meant more resources for the case, but it also provided that prosecutors take the lead role.)

 

 

The hamstrung wiretap phase, Jan. 5, 2010:

"Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators."

 

Ten days after the meeting with Hurley (the Assistant U.S. Attorney who proposed a wiretap), a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene.

 

 

 

 

Voth: "There's what you think. There's what you know. There's what you can prove. And the first two don't count."

 

Group VII's wiretap application languished with prosecutors in Arizona and Washington, D.C.

 

William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"

 

(Former Phoenis ATF supervison Forticelli) believed Arizona federal prosecutors made up excuses to decline cases. "Despite the existence [of] probable cause in many cases," he testified, "there were no indictments, no prosecutions, and criminals were allowed to walk free."

 

The ATF began presenting big cases to the state AG instead. AZ State AGGoddard:

"They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."

 

For prosecutors, straw-purchasing cases were hard to prove and unrewarding to prosecute, with minimal penalties attached…. But because the straw purchasers, by definition, have no criminal record and there is no firearms-trafficking statute that would allow prosecutors to charge them with conspiracy as a group, the penalties remain low.

 

After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. . In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself…

 

Agent In Charge Voth would refer to this case later, in a response to Texas authorities who were finding F&F guns:

"We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car…any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?

 

When the actual time came for the surveilance for the wiretap, here's Tom's heroic whistleblower:

Dodson didn't want to work weekends.

 

"[T]here may be a schism developing amongst the group. This is the time we all need to pull together not drift apart. We are all entitled to our respective (albeit different) opinions however we all need to get along and realize we have a mission to accomplish. I am thrilled and proud that our Group is the first ATF Southwest Border Group in the country to be going up on [a] wire…I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors or other adolescent behavior…I don't know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don't think this is fun you're in the wrong line of work—period! This is the pinnacle of domestic U.S. law-enforcement techniques. After this the tool box is empty."

 

... there is no documentary evidence that agents Dodson, Casa, or Alt complained to their supervisors about the alleged gun walking, had confrontations about it, or were retaliated against because of their complaints, as they all later claimed.

 

Outside his supervisor's (Voth's) view, it turns out that "whistleblower" Dodson was something of a gunwalking cowboy:

Dodson then proceeded to walk guns intentionally, with Casa and Alt's help. On April 13, 2010, one month after Voth wrote his schism e-mail, Dodson opened a case into a suspected gun trafficker named Isaiah Fernandez. He had gotten Casa to approve the case when Voth was on leave. Dodson had directed a cooperating straw purchaser to give three guns to Fernandez and had taped their conversations without a prosecutor's approval...Voth first learned these details a month into the case. He demanded that Dodson meet with him and get approval from prosecutors to tape conversations.

 

 

Dodson wrote that he succeeded in posing undercover as a straw purchaser... The prosecutor (Hurley) had told Dodson that an assistant U.S. Attorney "won't be able to approve of letting firearms 'walk' in furtherance of your investigation without first briefing the U.S. Attorney and Criminal Chief."

 

Note: at this point, Tom's "whistleblower" is leading the charge of F&F: his ATF supervisor is outside the loop, and Burke's office's prosecutor is opposing Dodson's actions.

It was the first time Voth learned that Dodson intended to walk guns. Voth says he refused to approve the plan and instead consulted his supervisor, who asked for a proposal from Dodson in writing.

 

On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez… Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, "if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it"—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns.

 

Note: Grassley's first example of gunwalking was Dodson's Fernandez involvement, not behavior of U.S. Attorney Burke.

(Grassley's Mar. 2011) reports were not from Fast and Furious. They came entirely from Dodson's Fernandez case.

 

The F&F evidence was complete towards the end of July, 2010.

The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts.

 

Note: Straw purchaser Avila's name was subsequently removed from the indictments due to lack of evidence!

 

On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

 

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned.

 

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act.

 

But CBS didn't quote the portions of Voth's e-mail that described how the group was divided by "petty arguing" and "adolescent behavior." Instead, CBS claimed the schism had been caused by opposition to gun walking (such alleged opposition is not discussed anywhere in the e-mail, which is below). CBS asserted that Dodson and others had protested the tactic "over and over," and then quoted portions of Voth's e-mail in a way that left the impression that gun walking was endorsed at headquarters. CBS contacted the ATF (but not Voth directly).

 

The Witch Hunters: are these your "sources", Tom?

Little more than a week after Terry's murder, a small item about the possible connection between his death and the Fast and Furious case appeared on a website, CleanUpATF.org. The site was the work of a disgruntled ATF agent-turned-whistleblower, Vince Cefalu, who is suing the bureau for alleged mistreatment in an unrelated case. His website has served as a clearinghouse for grievances and a magnet for other ATF whistleblowers.

 

...It had also attracted gun-rights activists loosely organized around a blog called the Sipsey Street Irregulars, run by a former militia member, Mike Vanderboegh, who has advocated armed insurrection against the U.S. government. It was an incendiary combination: the disgruntled ATF agents wanted to punish and reform the bureau; the gun-rights activists wanted to disable it. After the item about Terry appeared, the bloggers funneled the allegations through a "desert telegraph" of sorts to Republican lawmakers, who began asking questions.

 

 

Tom, it seems that at least some of your outrage should be directed at the FBI. Go for it.

Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau.

 

Issa has alleged on Fox News that Fast and Furious is part of a liberal conspiracy to restrict gun rights: "Very clearly, [the ATF] made a crisis and they are using this crisis to somehow take away or limit people's Second Amendment rights." (Issa has a personal history on this issue: In 1972, at age 19, he was arrested for having a concealed, loaded .25-caliber automatic in his car; he ultimately pleaded guilty to possession of an unregistered gun.)

 

Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%.

 

 

I repeat: Tom, the honesty factor of Burke lying to Brian Terry's family is roughly on par with the honesty factor of the title of this thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jocal, really, read the Inspector General's report and/or this thread before posting again. You look ridiculous reposting that long-debunked article, but I won't pull your pants down just yet.

 

I'll just point out that Burke was a stonewaller who knew he was lying to the Terry family, according to the Terry family...

 

“In March 2011, then U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke traveled to Michigan and updated us on the progress of Brian’s murder investigation. Much to our confusion, Mr. Burke provided my family with inaccurate information about Brian’s shooting. On March 10, 2011 my mother Josephine Terry, Sister Michelle Balogh and Brother Kent Terry and I sat with Mr. Burke at my mother’s home in Flat Rock, Michigan. When we asked where the assault weapons came from and how they were put into the hands of Mexican Cartels. Mr. Burke replied to us that the weapons found at my brother’s murder scene were sold out of a Texas shop, not an Arizona shop.”

 

Burke had already emailed his staff about the true origin of the guns when he lied to the Terry family. He knew. Congress and the Terry's and the rest of us found out later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

The Fast and Furious Red Herring

 

In June 2011, Rep. Darrell Issa’s initial report was published detailing the facts about the operation. Two months later, in August 2011, a Washington Times report based on insider information, revealed the primary motive of the gunrunning was to covertly arm a favored drug cartel not by the ATF, but by the CIA. And in January of this year, American Thinker ran an article documenting a decade-long DEA deal with the drug cartels citing reports going back to the beginning of 2012. It seems Issa’s report generated some interesting responses from other three-letter agencies pretty quickly and consistently for several years. And make no mistake, anytime the CIA leaks to the media about a supposed covert mission, it sends a strong signal to the beltway elite. In this case, “back off.”

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Judge signals Obama's Executive Privilege Claim May Fail


Berman harshly criticized both sides, saying, “Reading the briefs were somewhat distressing.” But the Obama-appointed judge was especially critical of the U.S. House for its filings, saying the “[Government Oversight] Committee’s briefs are exactly what I was assured they would not be.” According to her, they were “accusatory” and “seemed more directed at the press than to me.”

 

Breitbart News has previously explained the different forms of executive privilege relevant to this lawsuit. Moving on the arguments over those forms, she indicated she will rule against the House’s argument that executive privilege does not apply at all to these documents.

 

But she also signaled she will rule against DOJ’s argument that Holder can withhold everything after Feb. 4, 2011. “Is there any case anywhere that talks about that?” she asked. DOJ admitted there was none, and that they were asking the court to recognize a new constitutional protection for the executive branch that the federal courts had never before upheld.

 

As Berman saw it, Holder admitted he misinformed Congress. The House wants to know why. She balked at DOJ’s argument that Holder can withhold everything explaining how that came to be.

 

Jackson said she is likely to issue an opinion holding that there is a form of executive privilege relevant here that covers “intra-branch deliberations” and that it has “some constitutional underpinnings,” but it is much weaker than it would be if Obama were personally involved. She also signaled that under the ruling she would devise, DOJ would have to persuade her on each document as to why she should allow Holder to withhold it from Congress.

 

She suggested that under Supreme Court and federal appellate precedent, she would likely only allow documents to be withheld if they were both (1) leading up to an executive decision and (2) contained the deliberations back-and-forth about what the administration should do in carrying out its duties.

 

A ruling is expected in the next few months.

 

 

A brand new type of Executive Privilege, never before claimed nor recognized by any court.

 

No wonder it looked dubious from the moment it happened.

 

Of course, none of that matters now. The wheels of justice grind on and the EP claim will fail, but the public narrative is already written: witch hunt, nothing to see here, Issa is a partisan, therefore the administration can not have done anything wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Suspect in Terry Murder Extradited


The shooting of a federal agent along the U.S.-Mexico border, where immigrants, drugs and guns are a constant concern, would have been notorious in its own right. But the case eventually cast a spotlight on Fast and Furious, the program that was supposed to track and eventually stop illegal guns from being funneled into Mexico.

 

More than just embarrassment was at stake. Terry's killing unraveled the Justice Department-sanctioned gun-tracking operation and triggered one of the biggest political controversies of President Obama's first term.

 

The scandal drove out the head of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and left Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. in contempt of Congress for refusing to turn over records. It became a GOP buzzword, as potent in some circles as "Benghazi" is now.

 

As noted many times in this thread, there was no plan to "track" the guns. That was the reason for the controversy, and the reason the Inspector General called the plan reckless and irresponsible.

 

To be fair, they did later note:

 

Two guns found at the scene were eventually traced to a member of a gun-smuggling ring that was being monitored in the Fast and Furious investigation. U.S. authorities have been criticized for allowing informants to walk away from Phoenix-area gun shops with weapons rather than immediately arresting them.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

 

Was it simply a resource thing? Were Departments just too stretched for manpower to keep up 24/7 surveillence? If that is true, its simply unconscianable to just walk away and shrug your shoulders and hope for the best. Seriously, WTF???

"Oops, we ran out of manpower" works once as an excuse. Maybe a few times. Over and over for months on end? At some point it stops seeming like a mistake.

 

Speaking of things that make you go WTF??

 

The Justice Dept finally confirmed what was reported on the first page of this thread: Brian Terry's specially trained assault team that was sent in after violent people who rob drug and human smugglers was armed with... bean bag rounds.

 

In other news, a Border Patrol agent apparently fired a live, normal round at someone who was throwing rocks at him.

 

Don't throw rocks at BP agents

 

And it's probably a good idea to steer clear of any areas where rock throwing has occurred.

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Was it simply a resource thing? Were Departments just too stretched for manpower to keep up 24/7 surveillence? If that is true, its simply unconscianable to just walk away and shrug your shoulders and hope for the best. Seriously, WTF???

"Oops, we ran out of manpower" works once as an excuse. Maybe a few times. Over and over for months on end? At some point it stops seeming like a mistake.

 

Speaking of things that make you go WTF??

 

The Justice Dept finally confirmed what was reported on the first page of this thread: Brian Terry's specially trained assault team that was sent in after violent people who rob drug and human smugglers was armed with... bean bag rounds.

 

In other news, a Border Patrol agent apparently fired a live, normal round at someone who was throwing rocks at him.

 

Don't throw rocks at BP agents

 

And it's probably a good idea to steer clear of any areas where rock throwing has occurred.

 

 

 

 

Ouch. Good thing the dead boy was only a beaner...

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

The fight over Obama's dubious claims of Executive Privilege continues


A federal judge has ordered the Justice Department to provide Congress with a list of documents that are at the center of a long-running battle over a failed law enforcement program called Operation Fast and Furious.

 

In a court proceeding Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson set an Oct. 1 deadline for producing the list to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

 

A list of documents?

 

The article continues the false narrative of what happened in Fast and Furious:


The House panel says the Justice Department documents might explain why the department took nearly a year to admit that federal agents had engaged in a controversial law enforcement tactic known as gun-walking.

 

The Justice Department has long prohibited the risky practice. But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives used it with disastrous results in a federal law enforcement probe in Arizona, Operation Fast and Furious.

 

In the operation, federal agents permitted illicitly purchased weapons to be transported unimpeded in an effort to track them to high-level arms traffickers.

 

Federal agents lost control of some 2,000 weapons and many of them wound up at crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S. Two of the guns were found at the scene of the December 2010 slaying of border agent Brian Terry near the Arizona border city of Nogales.

 

"Long prohibited" means prohibited since gun nutz discovered the tactic was being used and exposed it. At the time it was prohibited, way back in the beginning of this thread, the Justice Department was still falsely denying that they used the tactic. It was just being prohibited to be extra safe. :rolleyes:

 

"Unimpeded" means "untracked," so it's not surprising that the effort was an abject failure at achieving its stated goals.

 

Federal agents lost control of some 2,000 guns. Out of some 2,000 guns involved. The rest were recovered at murder scenes. Those were the brilliant successes, if anyone is wondering. Right up until the one at Agent Terry's murder scene.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest One of Five

The fight over Obama's dubious claims of Executive Privilege continues

 

 

A federal judge has ordered the Justice Department to provide Congress with a list of documents that are at the center of a long-running battle over a failed law enforcement program called Operation Fast and Furious.

 

In a court proceeding Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson set an Oct. 1 deadline for producing the list to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

 

A list of documents?

 

The article continues the false narrative of what happened in Fast and Furious:

 

 

>

The House panel says the Justice Department documents might explain why the department took nearly a year to admit that federal agents had engaged in a controversial law enforcement tactic known as gun-walking.

 

The Justice Department has long prohibited the risky practice. But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives used it with disastrous results in a federal law enforcement probe in Arizona, Operation Fast and Furious.

 

In the operation, federal agents permitted illicitly purchased weapons to be transported unimpeded in an effort to track them to high-level arms traffickers.

 

Federal agents lost control of some 2,000 weapons and many of them wound up at crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S. Two of the guns were found at the scene of the December 2010 slaying of border agent Brian Terry near the Arizona border city of Nogales.

 

"Long prohibited" means prohibited since gun nutz discovered the tactic was being used and exposed it. At the time it was prohibited, way back in the beginning of this thread, the Justice Department was still falsely denying that they used the tactic. It was just being prohibited to be extra safe. :rolleyes:

 

"Unimpeded" means "untracked," so it's not surprising that the effort was an abject failure at achieving its stated goals.

 

Federal agents lost control of some 2,000 guns. Out of some 2,000 guns involved. The rest were recovered at murder scenes. Those were the brilliant successes, if anyone is wondering. Right up until the one at Agent Terry's murder scene.

 

Dayyyyum -- he's in a tough spot - Time for Solly's Moving Pitchers du Jour!

 

http://youtu.be/9Dg6DpEAscU

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

The Bush administration successfully ran out the clock in its dispute with Congressional overseers. Looks like we may see the same result again.

 

Holder Presses Delay on Fast and Furious Documents

 

Jackson has previously denied DOJ permission to file an immediate appeal, although lawyers for Holder indicated in the new filing (posted here) that they may do so anyway. Any appeal is likely to take months and perhaps more than a year to resolve. If that process does not begin until Jackson rules definitively on the the executive privilege claim President Barack Obama has made for many of the documents, the timeline for the case being resolved could begin to approach the end of the Obama administration.

...

The documents in dispute relate to the Justice Department's response to congressional and media inquiries about Fast and Furious, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation that appears to have resulted in as many as 2,000 weapons reaching Mexican narcotraffickers through a tactic known as gunwalking. Holder has denounced and banned the practice, which he said he and other senior department officials did not know about.

 

DOJ has turned over thousands of pages relating to the operation and the initial department response to the controversy but has withheld internal records about its response after February 2011, when it sent lawmakers a letter that insisted department personnel never knowingly engaged in gunwalking.

 

In the legal fight with the House committee, which is headed by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the Justice Department has maintained that "the entirety of its work file" related to the congressional inquiries into Fast and Furious is immune from court-ordered disclosure to the committee. Jackson has rejected that stance and asked Holder to identify which documents are predecisional and deliberative in nature.

 

The committee's litigation is now in a horse race (albeit a very slow one) with another lawsuit filed by the conservative group Judicial Watch, seeking the same information under the Freedom of Information Act. Some of the Justice Department's positions in the case involving the House panel seem to suggest it should received less information than a FOIA requester like Judicial Watch. Typically, congressional committees get more information than is available under FOIA.

 

Odd that they don't mention the fact that Obama's IG found that several senior officials did know about the gunwalking, nor the fact that the false denial letter was ultimately withdrawn months later. Oh well, bias of omission affects us all.

 

Setting the precedent that outside rabble rousers like Klayman can get more information through FOIA than Congressional overseers have the power to get seems ill-advised to me. I approve of oversight by outside rabble rousers and by Congress, but if one or the other is to have more access to information about how our government reaches decisions, I'd say it should be Congress.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of form 4473, a new one just went into effect a couple of days ago. It now not only asks your race, which was always an appropriate thing to ask gun buyers, but also asks whether or not you are Hispanic/Latino.

 

I'm not really sure why I should have to state my race when buying a firearm, let alone my ethnic/cultural heritage. But lying about it is a federal crime punishable by up to a quarter million dollar fine and ten years in prison, so they really, really want to know whether I'm Hispanic or not. :rolleyes:

 

 

Update on the upated 4473 forms.

 

...The amendment is causing a headache for gun retailers, as each box needs to be checked off or else it’s an ATF violation — severe enough for the government to shut a business down. Many times people skip over the Hispanic/Latino box and only check their race, or vice versa — both of which are federal errors that can be held against the dealer.

 

Requiring the race and ethnic information of gun buyers is not required by federal law and provides little law enforcement value, legal experts say. And gun industry officials worry about how the information is being used and whether it constitutes an unnecessary intrusion on privacy.

 

“This issue concerns me deeply because, first, it’s offensive, and, secondly, there’s no need for it,” said Evan Nappen, a private practice firearms lawyer in New Jersey. “If there’s no need for an amendment, then there’s usually a political reason for the change. What this indicates is it was done for political reasons, not law enforcement reasons.”

 

ATF said the change came about because it needed to update its forms to comply with an Office of Management and Budget (OMB) reporting standard put into effect during the Clinton administration. The ATF declined to comment on why race and ethnicity information are needed in the first place or what they are used for. On its prior 4473 forms, the bureau had been collecting race data.

 

OMB’s race and ethnicity standards require agencies to ask both race and ethnicity in a specific manner (as done on [Form 4473]), and agencies may not ask for one without asking for the other,” wrote Elizabeth Gosselin, a spokeswoman for the ATF, in an emailed response to The Washington Times. She did not say why the agency suddenly made the change in response to a rule that was more than a decade old.

 

For ATF to ask for a purchaser’s race and ethnicity is not specifically authorized under federal statute, and since a government-issued photo ID — like a driver’s license — and a background check are already required by law to purchase a gun, the ethnicity/race boxes aren’t there for identification reasons, Mr. Nappen said.

 

“There is nothing [in ATF or OMB’s website links addressing the change in policy] that supports the requirement that ATF collect race-based information. The OMB guidance merely describes what categories of race should look like if information is collected,” Laura Murphy, the American Civil Liberties Union director for legislative affairs in Washington, said in an emailed statement.

 

In addition, Mrs. Murphy notes, the OMB guidance was supposed to be implemented by 2003; there’s no information given why ATF decided to make this change almost a decade later, she said.

 

“If there is a civil rights enforcement reason for the ATF to collect this data, I have not heard that explanation from ATF or any other federal agency,” said Mrs. Murphy.

 

Both the NAACP and the National Council of La Raza — the nation’s largest national Hispanic civil rights group — declined comment...

So if they're going to ask about race, they also have to ask about HIspanic/Latino heritage, whatever that is. I still wonder why the government needs to know the race of gun buyers.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The military equipment has been distributed to thousands of police forces and only a tiny minority have abused them.

 

Some folks just don't believe in the 2nd Amendment, and would use the actions of a few bad apples to have Big Government strip ALL of our well regulated militias of the right to keep and bear arms.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest One of Five

The military equipment has been distributed to thousands of police forces and only a tiny minority have abused them.

 

Some folks just don't believe in the 2nd Amendment, and would use the actions of a few bad apples to have Big Government strip ALL of our well regulated militias of the right to keep and bear arms.

 

Just how IS your research going on frangible ammunition?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Judge Denies DOJ Request for Delay in Fast and Furious Lawsuit


The list, better known as a Vaughn index, was requested through a June 2012 FOIA filing by government watchdog Judicial Watch. When DOJ didn't respond to the FOIA request in the time required by law, Judicial Watch sued in September 2012, seeking all documents DOJ and the White House are withholding from Congress under executive privilege claims. President Obama made the assertion on June 20, 2012 just moments before Attorney General Eric Holder was held in contempt. In July 2014, after two years of battling for information, Judge Bates ordered the Department of Justice to release the Vaughn Index by October 1. DOJ responded by asking for a month long delay in releasing the list with a deadline of November 3, just one day before the 2014-midterm elections. That request has been denied. A short delay was granted and DOJ must produce the Vaughn index by October 22.

 

"The government’s arguments for even more time are unconvincing," Bates said in his ruling. "eventy-five days—plus another twenty-one, based in part on Judiciary Watch’s consent—is enough time for the government to prepare the index that this Court has ordered, given that this matter has been pending for over two years. The Court will therefore extend the Department’s Vaughn index submission deadline to October 22, 2014—and no further."

 

"The government argues that it must devote significant numbers of attorneys to this matter if it hopes to comply with the current Vaughn index deadline ... But the Department has known about its Vaughn index obligations since July 18, 2014 ... At best, it means the Department has been slow to react to this Court’s previous Order. At worst, it means the Department has ignored that Order until now," he added.

 

...

 

Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said in a statement in reaction to the ruling. “This is a battle that put Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, saw Nixonian assertions of executive privilege by Barack Obama, and a hapless Congress in the face of all this lawlessness. This latest court ruling shows again that Judicial Watch’s independent investigations and lawsuits are more effective than Congress and the rest of media.

 

Have to say Fitton is right about that.

 

Brian Terry's sister says the timing of Eric Holder's resignation is related to this court order.


In a separate statement put out on behalf of the Brian Terry Foundation, family spokesman Ralph Terry says Holder's resignation is welcomed.

 

"Despite Holder’s aggressive pursuit of the Mexican nationals directly involved in Brian’s murder, the Attorney General has repeatedly failed to accept responsibility for the ill-fated gun trafficking investigation and has most regrettably failed to hold those DOJ and ATF officials responsible for the many mistakes made in the operation. Despite repeated pleas by Brian Terry’s family, Holder has chosen to not discipline those individuals found at fault by DOJ’s own Inspector General. Despite the clear and present danger that exists even today to law enforcement and the general public on both sides of the border, Holder has repeatedly refused to hold government officials accountable for the deadly mistakes made in Operation Fast and Furious. Immediately after Brian Terry’s murder, Holder’s Justice Department inexplicably denied that ATF had ever “walked” guns despite the obvious testimony of ATF whistleblowers that were part of the operation," Terry said. "Holder’s resignation is welcomed by the Terry Family and should have occurred immediately after Brian Terry’s death and the revelation that the men that killed Brian were carrying weapons supplied to them by ATF."

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest One of Five

Judge Denies DOJ Request for Delay in Fast and Furious Lawsuit

 

 

The list, better known as a Vaughn index, was requested through a June 2012 FOIA filing by government watchdog Judicial Watch. When DOJ didn't respond to the FOIA request in the time required by law, Judicial Watch sued in September 2012, seeking all documents DOJ and the White House are withholding from Congress under executive privilege claims. President Obama made the assertion on June 20, 2012 just moments before Attorney General Eric Holder was held in contempt. In July 2014, after two years of battling for information, Judge Bates ordered the Department of Justice to release the Vaughn Index by October 1. DOJ responded by asking for a month long delay in releasing the list with a deadline of November 3, just one day before the 2014-midterm elections. That request has been denied. A short delay was granted and DOJ must produce the Vaughn index by October 22.

 

"The government’s arguments for even more time are unconvincing," Bates said in his ruling. "eventy-five days—plus another twenty-one, based in part on Judiciary Watch’s consent—is enough time for the government to prepare the index that this Court has ordered, given that this matter has been pending for over two years. The Court will therefore extend the Department’s Vaughn index submission deadline to October 22, 2014—and no further."

 

"The government argues that it must devote significant numbers of attorneys to this matter if it hopes to comply with the current Vaughn index deadline ... But the Department has known about its Vaughn index obligations since July 18, 2014 ... At best, it means the Department has been slow to react to this Court’s previous Order. At worst, it means the Department has ignored that Order until now," he added.

 

...

 

Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said in a statement in reaction to the ruling. “This is a battle that put Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, saw Nixonian assertions of executive privilege by Barack Obama, and a hapless Congress in the face of all this lawlessness. This latest court ruling shows again that Judicial Watch’s independent investigations and lawsuits are more effective than Congress and the rest of media.

 

Have to say Fitton is right about that.

 

Brian Terry's sister says the timing of Eric Holder's resignation is related to this court order.

 

 

>

In a separate statement put out on behalf of the Brian Terry Foundation, family spokesman Ralph Terry says Holder's resignation is welcomed.

 

"Despite Holder’s aggressive pursuit of the Mexican nationals directly involved in Brian’s murder, the Attorney General has repeatedly failed to accept responsibility for the ill-fated gun trafficking investigation and has most regrettably failed to hold those DOJ and ATF officials responsible for the many mistakes made in the operation. Despite repeated pleas by Brian Terry’s family, Holder has chosen to not discipline those individuals found at fault by DOJ’s own Inspector General. Despite the clear and present danger that exists even today to law enforcement and the general public on both sides of the border, Holder has repeatedly refused to hold government officials accountable for the deadly mistakes made in Operation Fast and Furious. Immediately after Brian Terry’s murder, Holder’s Justice Department inexplicably denied that ATF had ever “walked” guns despite the obvious testimony of ATF whistleblowers that were part of the operation," Terry said. "Holder’s resignation is welcomed by the Terry Family and should have occurred immediately after Brian Terry’s death and the revelation that the men that killed Brian were carrying weapons supplied to them by ATF."

 

 

That was my thought as well. I don't think he has the same level of immunity now. This will be interesting.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoopee!

 

 

As for the new ATF Director, I'm glad we won't have to listen to whining about the agency only having an acting director any more, but have little hope for change. For those who have not been watching...

 

Todd Jones is not a big fan of whistleblowers, doesn't mind sweetheart deals for stonewallers, and figures that after the major fuckups in Phoenix, they could use some of the kind of leadership shown in Operation Fearless, the Milwaukee debacle.

 


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agent Terry's mother: "... the men that killed Brian were carrying weapons supplied to them by ATF."

 

This statement is not even factual. The guns were legally (but suspiciously) purchased on MLK weekend; no ATF agents were present. The dealer's note about these guns got to the ATF on a Tuesday morning. My understanding is that no ATF Agent saw that gun go out the door. Barak Obama didn't send that AW out the door either.

 

An ill-thought, gun-trafficker-friendly combination of laws and policies, implemented by agents of the gun lobby, drove this situation.

 

Tom, I think your Brian Terry witch hunt lacks an ethical foundation, because fair is fair. If you want to support the DOJ with workable international arms laws and penalties, then you have a right to high expectations of DOJ performance. But if you have fought against suitable, effective federal arms policies, resulting in certain decisions and inactions on the part of AZ federal prosecutors, I feel your outrage against Holder and Co. is misplaced. I feel strongly that your elk have contributed to F&F.

 

(If you have a coherent road map of how to stop gun trafficking across the Mexican border, please type it here.

If you have a link to the Fortune article being debunked, linky please.)

 

JohnDodson_zpsded8f203.png

 

 

 

Here is an example of your bile jacking up the gun mess, Tom. This doesn't show a balanced outlook, or a positive framework for the future of guns in the USA either, IMO.

Tom Ray, on 19 Nov 2013 - 04:57, I'm glad we won't have to listen to whining about the agency (BATFE) only having an acting director any more.

 

Several ATF directors were badgered, a few were hounded out of office, the temporary directors lacked charter, and the Director's replacement was blocked indefinitely by the gun lobby, remember?

The ATF has met sustained, open challenges from the NRA, for decades.

 

BTW, where is your outrage with the FBI, if the ATF was chasing FBI "confidential" informant straw men?

 

If you gave a shit about the actual gun problem, you would have been pulling for effective leadership of this key agency.

You would be full of positive, appropriate libertarian ideas to help the ATF help minimize and manage the gun problem.

Instead, you marginalize that agency, while going after a DOJ whose gun-management tools have been hobbled by the gun lobby.

 

You collectively create a big gun trafficking problem, then complain about the effects of that problem, and the tactics used to prosecute that problem. I'm not impressed.

 

Nation-building this is not. Neither is it superior patriotism.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You think Fast and Furious was run by "the gun lobby" huh?

 

I don't know where to start in overcoming that level of ignorance. Even Mark K gave up on the idea that this was some sort of NRA false flag operation long ago.

 

Read the thread and the IG report then tell me what the evidence is that any of this mess was "implemented by agents of the gun lobby."

 

The evidence that it was implemented by Dennis Burke, driving force behind the Mean Looking Weapons Ban, has already been posted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest One of Five

 

Agent Terry's mother: "... the men that killed Brian were carrying weapons supplied to them by ATF."

 

This statement is not even factual. The guns were legally (but suspiciously) purchased on MLK weekend; no ATF agents were present. The dealer's note about these guns got to the ATF on a Tuesday morning. My understanding is that no ATF Agent saw that gun go out the door. Barak Obama didn't send that AW out the door either.

 

An ill-thought, gun-trafficker-friendly combination of laws and policies, implemented by agents of the gun lobby, drove this situation.

 

Tom, I think your Brian Terry witch hunt lacks an ethical foundation, because fair is fair. If you want to support the DOJ with workable international arms laws and penalties, then you have a right to high expectations of DOJ performance. But if you have fought against suitable, effective federal arms policies, resulting in certain decisions and inactions on the part of AZ federal prosecutors, I feel your outrage against Holder and Co. is misplaced. I feel strongly that your elk have contributed to F&F.

 

(If you have a coherent road map of how to stop gun trafficking across the Mexican border, please type it here.

If you have a link to the Fortune article being debunked, linky please.)

 

JohnDodson_zpsded8f203.png

 

 

 

Here is an example of your bile jacking up the gun mess, Tom. This doesn't show a balanced outlook, or a positive framework for the future of guns in the USA either, IMO.

>Tom Ray, on 19 Nov 2013 - 04:57, I'm glad we won't have to listen to whining about the agency (BATFE) only having an acting director any more.

 

Several ATF directors were badgered, a few were hounded out of office, the temporary directors lacked charter, and the Director's replacement was blocked indefinitely by the gun lobby, remember?

The ATF has met sustained, open challenges from the NRA, for decades.

 

BTW, where is your outrage with the FBI, if the ATF was chasing FBI "confidential" informant straw men?

 

If you gave a shit about the actual gun problem, you would have been pulling for effective leadership of this key agency.

You would be full of positive, appropriate libertarian ideas to help the ATF help minimize and manage the gun problem.

Instead, you marginalize that agency, while going after a DOJ whose gun-management tools have been hobbled by the gun lobby.

 

You collectively create a big gun trafficking problem, then complain about the effects of that problem, and the tactics used to prosecute that problem. I'm not impressed.

 

Nation-building this is not. Neither is it superior patriotism.

 

 

Wow --- you really DO have a lot of time on your hands.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoopee!

 

 

As for the new ATF Director, I'm glad we won't have to listen to whining about the agency only having an acting director any more, but have little hope for change. For those who have not been watching...

 

Todd Jones is not a big fan of whistleblowers, doesn't mind sweetheart deals for stonewallers, and figures that after the major fuckups in Phoenix, they could use some of the kind of leadership shown in Operation Fearless, the Milwaukee debacle.

 

 

 

 

You don't think the incompetence of the forensics guy they had standing in as a temp head of the BATF was a factor??

 

Wow.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Whoopee!

 

 

As for the new ATF Director, I'm glad we won't have to listen to whining about the agency only having an acting director any more, but have little hope for change. For those who have not been watching...

 

Todd Jones is not a big fan of whistleblowers, doesn't mind sweetheart deals for stonewallers, and figures that after the major fuckups in Phoenix, they could use some of the kind of leadership shown in Operation Fearless, the Milwaukee debacle.

 

You don't think the incompetence of the forensics guy they had standing in as a temp head of the BATF was a factor??

 

Wow.

 

Did I say that, or anything like it? No.

 

I do believe that green-lighting the Project Gunrunner prosecutions that had been abandoned by the "previous regime" in the White House gave Newell and his fellow gunwalkers the idea that prosecutors suddenly liked their stupid idea again. And by "prosecutors" I mostly mean Dennis Burke and his staff. That was what the IG said happened.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That article begins:

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

The Inspector General's report concludes:

In both investigations, it was not until conducting post-arrest interviews of key subjects that agents learned how the firearms were getting out of Phoenix in Operation Fast and Furious and out of Tucson in Operation Wide Receiver.

 

The risk to public safety was immediately evident in both investigations. Almost from the outset of each case, ATF agents learned that the purchases were financed by violent Mexican drug trafficking organizations and that the firearms were destined for Mexico.

The rest of it is not any more accurate. It seems the author relied almost exclusively on Voth, Newell, and McAllister as sources. To find references to those three in the IG report, just search the document for the word "unpersuasive" and you should find plenty. I sure did.

 

 

 

 

The topics to cover will be pretty close to this:

 

 

GUNS IN THE USA; Big-picture Questions for Tom ray:[/size]

 

 

19.What is your latest insight or information about Fast and Furious? What is your position on the culpability of the guns Dodson walked? Do you agree with the Fortune article that he was the primary gunwalker?[/size]

 

 

 

All my latest thought on this issue can be found in this thread. The quote box above will take you back to the era you are asking about.

 

I agreed with the IG that Dodson was trying to show his superiors how stupid they were being when they (very stupidly) approved his (obviously stupid) request. He ultimately could not get them to see the error of their ways in this manner and had to blow the whistle in public to get the gunwalking stopped.

 

The Fortune article, by the way, begins by saying the ATF never intentionally walked guns. Even the DOJ backed off that lie after a while, but not before it earned Eric Holder a contempt vote. Why are you still repeating it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lawyers for Congress ask Judge Jackson to fine and/or imprison Eric Holder

 

Members of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson to fine Mr. Holder if he doesn’t comply with her own order issued back in August — the one where she said he couldn’t claim executive privilege to keep private certain documents related to the federal gun-running program, “Operation Fast and Furious,” Politico reported.

 

I still like Judge Jackson. She seems to believe that "The President wasn't involved and we're claiming Executive Privilege" was nonsense when the Bush administration tried it and thinks the same thing about the Obama administration.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Too bad it took so long, but ATF settled the suit by whistleblower Vince Cefalu and expunged his record of the retaliatory negative info.

 

He got $85k, legal fees, and his retirement.

 

The government got the message across: whistleblowers will be punished and will face a long and expensive fight to make things right. They also face character assassination, as in the post above by Jocal calling Dodson (of all people) the most notorious gunwalker.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Another Fast and Furious gun turned up. Somehow the DOJ overlooked their obligation to notify Congress.

 

Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley and Chairman of the House Oversight Committee Darrell Issa sent a letter to Assistant Attorney General James Cole late Thursday afternoon demanding more information about why DOJ failed to inform Congress of the connection between the AK-47 used in the assault and Fast and Furious as their investigation of the lethal program continues.

"Once again, we have learned of another crime gun connected to Fast and Furious. The Department did not provide any notice to the Congress or the public about this gun," the letter states. "Documents obtained by Judicial Watch under Arizona’s public records law show that law enforcement officials recovered a Fast and Furious gun last summer in connection with a shooting that left two individuals wounded."

"Based on the serial number [1977DX1654] from the police report obtained by Judicial Watch and documents obtained during our Fast and Furious investigation, we can confirm that the assault rifle recovered in the vehicle on July 30, 2013, was purchased by Sean Christopher Stewart. Stewart pled guilty to firearms trafficking charges resulting from his involvement with Operation Fast and Furious. Stewart purchased this particular firearm on December 8, 2009, one of 40 that he purchased that day while under ATF surveillance,” the letter continues. "According to the Phoenix Police Department report, ATF traced the firearm on July 31, 2013, the day after Phoenix police officers recovered it. Yet, over a full year has passed, and the Department has failed to notify the Committees."

The letter also details that during his time as a gun trafficker for Mexican cartels, Stewart was able to purchase over $176,000 worth of weapons, which included 260 Ak-47s, 20 9mm pistols and a .50 caliber rifle. Stewart is serving nine years in prison after being sentenced in November 2012 on a number of federal charges.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom - so why the heck hasnt anyone been convicted of a crime regarding 'fast and furious'. I cant wrap my head around that. Why havent they went after the guys at the bottom and worked their way up the food chain on this thing? That whole 'operation' is a big deal in my book.

Link to post
Share on other sites

From the post above:

 

Stewart is serving nine years in prison after being sentenced in November 2012 on a number of federal charges.

 

He was one of the straw purchasers the ATF was watching. And watching. And watching some more.

 

When Brian Terry was killed, there was suddenly enough evidence to do something more than watch and a bunch of those guys wound up in the clink, Stewart among them.

 

Much of the IG report is redacted, but from what I can gather, working their way up the food chain would have quickly bagged an FBI informant in Mexico. So they didn't.

 

But the case is about more than the straw buyers and who they were supplying. As usual, it's about the coverup that happened long after the operation was shut down. That's what the Executive Privilege claim currently in court is about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom - so why the heck hasnt anyone been convicted of a crime regarding 'fast and furious'. I cant wrap my head around that. Why havent they went after the guys at the bottom and worked their way up the food chain on this thing? That whole 'operation' is a big deal in my book.

Let's ask a slightly different question. How come nobody from DOJ/ATF has been convicted of a crime regarding this initiative? Especially the post bungle cover up?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's partially because it's in the dark and murky world of international espionage. Most of the "cover up" is plausibly due to the existence of a mole being run by another agency (DEA) within a cartel and the need to keep any and all specifics about that mole and the information that can be attributed to him or her out of the hands of known leakers like Darrel Issa and his merry band. Also partially because the people who did it were aping programs that have gone on before and got approval from their chain of command. While screwing with the whistle blowers is bad, it's not something that usually results in criminal prosecution, more typically the screwer is dismissed and the screwee has hit the lottery. Effectively retirement with full pay and benes, if they want it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's partially because it's in the dark and murky world of international espionage. Most of the "cover up" is plausibly due to the existence of a mole being run by another agency (DEA) within a cartel and the need to keep any and all specifics about that mole and the information that can be attributed to him or her out of the hands of known leakers like Darrel Issa and his merry band. Also partially because the people who did it were aping programs that have gone on before and got approval from their chain of command. While screwing with the whistle blowers is bad, it's not something that usually results in criminal prosecution, more typically the screwer is dismissed and the screwee has hit the lottery. Effectively retirement with full pay and benes, if they want it.

Which prior programs are you talking about?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver were both parts of that program.

 

I thought you said other programs?

 

In any case, WR was stopped for good reasons by the previous regime before being restarted for no apparent good reason by the current regime.

 

Restarting it gave the Project Gunrunner bunch the idea that gun walking would be OK again, so they started again and FnF was born.

Link to post
Share on other sites