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Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation


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It's Judge Jackson or Judge Berman Jackson. It isn't Judge Berman unless you're watching reality court TV at the laundromat. Actually, I did mean only those documents. Again, the Kenyan’s EP was

Maybe he'll be nicer now that his period is over.

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under

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This is amazing.

 

Law Enforcement Sources: Gun Used in Paris Terrorist Attacks Came from Phoenix / Fast and Furious

Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/06/30/law-enforcement-sources-gun-used-in-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-from-phoenix/?platform=hootsuite?utm_source=glennbeck&utm_medium=contentcopy_link

 

"One of the guns used in the November 13, 2015 Paris terrorist attacks came from Phoeniz, Arizona where the Obama administration allowed criminals to buy thousands of weapons illegally in a deadly and futile 'gun-walking' operation known as 'Fast and Furious,'" Judicial Watch reported. The investigative follow-up of the Paris weapon involved tracking a paper trail using a 4473 form, which documents a gun's ownership by history using serial numbers.

 

As Judicial Watch explained, the "Fast and Furious" scandal followed an ill-conceived attempt by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) to catch Mexican drug lords by selling them illegal guns. But the ATF lost track of the guns, and the weapons ended up being used in numerous attacks, resulting in the deaths of Americans, and -- according to Judicial Watch -- Frenchmen.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/06/30/was-a-weapon-used-in-the-paris-terror-attack-linked-to-a-fast-and-furious-gun-dealer/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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I see the the "lost track of the guns" myth was repeated enough times to become fact, even in the right wing noise machine.

 

There was never a plan for ATF to track them, so losing track of them happened as soon as they left the store or shortly afterward. Because that was the plan. The idea was to see where they turned up at Mexican crime scenes. It's an idea so insanely stupid that it has caused many to wonder if there was not some other idea.

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This is amazing.

 

Law Enforcement Sources: Gun Used in Paris Terrorist Attacks Came from Phoenix / Fast and Furious

Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/06/30/law-enforcement-sources-gun-used-in-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-from-phoenix/?platform=hootsuite?utm_source=glennbeck&utm_medium=contentcopy_link

 

"One of the guns used in the November 13, 2015 Paris terrorist attacks came from Phoeniz, Arizona where the Obama administration allowed criminals to buy thousands of weapons illegally in a deadly and futile 'gun-walking' operation known as 'Fast and Furious,'" Judicial Watch reported. The investigative follow-up of the Paris weapon involved tracking a paper trail using a 4473 form, which documents a gun's ownership by history using serial numbers.

 

As Judicial Watch explained, the "Fast and Furious" scandal followed an ill-conceived attempt by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) to catch Mexican drug lords by selling them illegal guns. But the ATF lost track of the guns, and the weapons ended up being used in numerous attacks, resulting in the deaths of Americans, and -- according to Judicial Watch -- Frenchmen.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/06/30/was-a-weapon-used-in-the-paris-terror-attack-linked-to-a-fast-and-furious-gun-dealer/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

That's un-fucking-believable! It's a small world.

 

Still, it pales in comparison to all the weapons they ran through Benghazi... :ph34r:

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Don't be silly. It's totally believable with this administration.

 

Yeah, you'd think there'd be laws preventing this sort of criminality by these thugs.

 

Whoever in the ATF leaked it to Judicial Watch will likely commit self murder. Access to that kind of incriminating evidence has to be tightly controlled.

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Sarah Brady must have tipped him off.

 

It's a plot, I tell ya.

The Washington Post has invented a whole new anti-gun scare term around this guy:

 

(cue scary music)

 

The TERROR Gap!

 

In addition to further perpetuating the gun show loophole myth and the false notion that there is such a thing as a "private dealer" at a gun show, they took the opportunity in that article to point out that people on the secret "watch list" who cannot fly still have constitutional rights, among them second amendment rights! The horror! The government putting a person on a secret list should easily be reason enough to start violating constitutional rights! We just need a term to scare the people!

 

The TERROR Gap! PANIC!!!

 

Wow. Exactly 5 years ago today I was arguing against Democrats who were advocating using a secret list with no due process to deny protected rights.

 

And they're still doing it, now joined by The Donald.

 

 

You have no plan to present us, Tom. You are just defending gun mayhem in the USA, for the Koch Bros.

Of course, it isn't going very well. The upper and lower courts are ruling against you.

 

Five years of gun chaos is a long time. You need to shift gears someday, to look less foolish.

You want to whinge away, indefinitely, about F&F, while our culture is moving forward towards better gun safety.

You are being left in the dust, clutching an IG report which reflects the lousy interstate gun regulation you support.

 

 

Alan Gura et al, recent Court failures

Peruta vs San Diego re: need for CCP

Jackson vs SF re: mandatory safe storage indoors

Heller III vs DC re: registration of handguns and AW's upheld, to include mandatory fingerprinting of permit holders

CT and NY restrictions of AW's and LCM's upheld

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I see the the "lost track of the guns" myth was repeated enough times to become fact, even in the right wing noise machine.

 

There was never a plan for ATF to track them, so losing track of them happened as soon as they left the store or shortly afterward. Because that was the plan. The idea was to see where they turned up at Mexican crime scenes. It's an idea so insanely stupid that it has caused many to wonder if there was not some other idea.

 

 

The only guns worth tracking are those that might be used by law-abiding American citizens to defend themselves from terrorists, criminals, Jocals and liberals -- but I repeat myself.

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I see the the "lost track of the guns" myth was repeated enough times to become fact, even in the right wing noise machine.

 

There was never a plan for ATF to track them, so losing track of them happened as soon as they left the store or shortly afterward. Because that was the plan. The idea was to see where they turned up at Mexican crime scenes. It's an idea so insanely stupid that it has caused many to wonder if there was not some other idea.

 

I'm not convinced quite enough time has passed for those lies to have become truth yet. We will know when Darrel Issa's final report on this is delivered. A Deliverance, and hopefully when Americans wake up and smell the banjos.

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Mr. Issa's self-righteousness has a checkered foundation. His rise to success with Viper alarm systems includes a suspicious arson fire, after foreclosing on a friend after one missed payment.

 

From Wiki:

(...) One of those clients, car alarm manufacturer Steal Stopper, would become the path to Issa's fortune. It was struggling badly, and he took control of it by foreclosing a $60,000 loan he had made to it when its founder, Joey Adkins, missed a payment.[13]

Issa soon turned Steal Stopper around, to the point that it was supplying Ford with thousands of car alarms and negotiating a similar deal with Toyota. But early in the morning of September 7, 1982, the offices and factory of Quantum and Steal Stopper in the Cleveland suburb of Maple Heights caught fire. The fire took three hours to put out. The buildings and almost all the inventory within were destroyed. An investigation of the cause of the fire noted "suspicious burn patterns" with fires starting in two places aided by an accelerant such as gasoline.[13]

Adkins said Issa appeared to prepare for a fire by increasing the fire insurance policy by 462% three weeks previously, and by removing computer equipment holding accounting and customer information. St. Paul Insurance, suspicious of arson and insurance fraud, initially paid only $25,000, according to Issa.[13][21]

(...) In 2001 Issa voted for the authorization of the PATRIOT Act and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.[43]

(...) Issa has said he supports efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. He voted against a cap and trade bill designed to cut them.[47] Issa believes that "the science community does not agree to the extent of the problem or the critical threshold of when this problem is truly catastrophic."[48]

(...) Issa supported the use of military force in Iraq (2002)[72] and Afghanistan.

(...) Issa came to national prominence in 2003 when he contributed over $1.6 million to help fund a signature-gathering drive for the petition to recall California Governor Gray Davis. At the time he made the contribution, it was widely believed that Issa intended to place himself on the ballot to replace Davis.

(...) However, following the entrance of fellow RepublicanArnold Schwarzenegger into the race, two days before the filing deadline, Issa announced that he would not run.[96]

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  • 1 month later...

How to close the scary Terror Gap?

 

Put the ATF on a secret list for secret reasons and don't let them anywhere near gun transactions

 

Back on the first page of this thread, we were speculating about where and when the guns walked by ATF might end up. Never imagined one answer would be in the hands of terrorists in Paris.

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Bad messenger? Should be easy to debunk.

 

Maybe The Hill would be better?

 

It was crazy to register those guns in the first place. Gun running rule number one: Absolutely no traceability or accountability. Deny. Deny. Deny...

 

Better yet, supply them with Russian or Chinese-made weapons. :ph34r:

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

 

Three more weapons from Fast and Furious have turned up at crime scenes in Mexico, CBS News has learned, as the toll from the controversial federal operation grows.

 

According to Justice Department tracing documents obtained by CBS News, all three guns are WASR-10 762-caliber Romanian rifles. Two were purchased by Fast and Furious suspect Uriel Patino in May and July of 2010. Sean Steward, who was convicted on gun charges in July 2012, purchased a third. The rifles were traced yesterday to the Lone Wolf gun shop in Glendale, Ariz.

 

During Fast and Furious and similar operations, federal agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) encouraged the Lone Wolf and other gun stores to sell massive amounts of weapons to questionable purchasers who allegedly trafficked them Mexican drug cartels.

 

Patino is said to have purchased 700 guns while under ATF's watch. Ever since, a steady stream of the guns have been recovered at crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S. But the Justice Department has refused repeated requests from Congress and CBS News to provide a full accounting. An estimated 1,400 guns are still on the street or unaccounted for.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57598487/more-fast-and-furious-guns-surface-at-crimes-in-mexico/

Jack,

 

The Fast n Furious thread is over here. That other one is about a more recent fuckup in Milwaukee.

 

 

It seems that the thread Jack posted in has disappeared so I guess this one is now about Milwaukee and related fuckups.

 

 

The inspector general's office also found a number of issues with storefront stings in the other cities.

 

Pensacola agents didn't place a team outside the store to help with potential emergencies and had no plans for dealing with people who couldn't legally possess guns but who left the store armed. The store also was burglarized once; the report said agents didn't install an alarm.

 

In St. Louis, agents set up their storefront 600 feet from a Boys and Girls Club. Most of the agents involved weren't aware of the club and a tactical advisor said it's never a good idea to run operations around children.

 

Boston agents ran their store out of a van that moved around, leading the lead agent to remark that the chance of randomly encountering someone on the street who wants to sell a gun was virtually nonexistent.

 

The report found that the storefront sting operations' problems were caused primarily by poor management and insufficient training and guidance for field

 

agents. A lax culture that failed to emphasize managing risks also played a role.

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  • 2 months later...

Should the USG be held responsible for supplying weapons that are used to kill innocent men, women, and children if it's a gun grabbing "democrat" administration? :ph34r:

 

Should but won't.

 

The perpetrators of this reckless operation were allowed to resign or were transferred. The Inspector General wrote a report about how unbelievably stupid the whole thing was.

 

Now, the investigation is called just another witch hunt, as if nothing wrong happened at all.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Army recruiter admits funneling guns to drug cartel

 

The plea agreement said that, between April 6, 2015, and Aug. 27, 2015, Prezas used co-defendants Thomas John Zamudio, Ricardo Esparza Salazar and Christopher Brown — servicemen he met in the military — to buy at least 42 guns for him.

 

In all the transactions, Prezas supplied Zamudio, Salazar and Brown with the money to purchase the firearms and paid them a cut for their efforts, making the trio “straw buyers,” the Prezas plea deal said. The three have pleaded guilty to making false statements on federal firearms forms and await sentencing.

 

Prezas’ lawyer, George Dombart, said his client is a decorated veteran who supports the right to bear arms but misunderstood regulations over the sales of guns.

 

“Sometimes, the line gets blurred on public versus private sales,” Dombart said. “Once he became aware that his conduct was illegal, he accepted responsibility.”

...

 

Prezas faces up to 10 years in prison on the lying charges, and up to 20 years in prison on the attempted exportation count. Sentencing is set for March 23 before U.S. District Judge Orlando Garcia. Prezas’ co-defendants, who are no longer in the military, each face up to 10 years in prison.

 

 

The law and the language on 4473's couldn't be more clear. The lawyer is pretty clever to dream up "public" sales but the idea that these guys thought that arranging straw purchases for Mexican cartels was legal is absurd.

 

The agents in Fast and Furious claimed that they couldn't enforce the law. Yet somehow, these straw buyers are facing ten years.

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Army recruiter admits funneling guns to drug cartel

 

The plea agreement said that, between April 6, 2015, and Aug. 27, 2015, Prezas used co-defendants Thomas John Zamudio, Ricardo Esparza Salazar and Christopher Brown — servicemen he met in the military — to buy at least 42 guns for him.

 

In all the transactions, Prezas supplied Zamudio, Salazar and Brown with the money to purchase the firearms and paid them a cut for their efforts, making the trio “straw buyers,” the Prezas plea deal said. The three have pleaded guilty to making false statements on federal firearms forms and await sentencing.

 

Prezas’ lawyer, George Dombart, said his client is a decorated veteran who supports the right to bear arms but misunderstood regulations over the sales of guns.

 

“Sometimes, the line gets blurred on public versus private sales,” Dombart said. “Once he became aware that his conduct was illegal, he accepted responsibility.”

...

 

Prezas faces up to 10 years in prison on the lying charges, and up to 20 years in prison on the attempted exportation count. Sentencing is set for March 23 before U.S. District Judge Orlando Garcia. Prezas’ co-defendants, who are no longer in the military, each face up to 10 years in prison.

 

 

The law and the language on 4473's couldn't be more clear. The lawyer is pretty clever to dream up "public" sales but the idea that these guys thought that arranging straw purchases for Mexican cartels was legal is absurd.

 

The agents in Fast and Furious claimed that they couldn't enforce the law. Yet somehow, these straw buyers are facing ten years.

 

Hi to Despicable Tom, and a hearty welcome to his daily ration of fake news, gun mayhem, trailer trash values, and swamp gas.

 

No doubt the ATF didn't know what was going on down there. But you do.

This case shows that gun trafficking laws work, eh? More cherry picking. Our gun trafficking laws have been gutted.

This gambit is similar to your claim that the CDC's outline of needed research is proof positive that the CDC is entirely unshackled WRT gun research. It's shameful, really.

 

Why can't you just support your policies with honest statements? Because they don't hold up under scrutiny.

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The blogger who did what "real" journalists would not and broke this story has died.

 

RIP Mike Vanderboegh

 

The fucking Sipsey Street Irregulars? The conspiracy whack jobs?

You have been following their lead?

 

I followed Tim's link. (What a dumbass to go public with this!)

Incredibly, the Fast and Furious uproar is libertarian-based.

YCMTSU.

 

MICHAEL BRIAN VANDERBOEGH

Mike Vanderboegh was a longtime leader and propagandist in the antigovernment “Patriot” movement specializing in fiery rhetoric urging violent “self-defense” against a tyrannical, Constitution-flouting U.S. government determined to impose the Communist principles of gun control and universal health care.

From <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/michael-brian-vanderboegh-0>

 

He began as a communist, trained to lie for his cause.

 

Vanderboegh.

However, the first thing you're taught when you get to be a killer tomato (red thru and thru) is that it is OK to lie to anybody about anything if it advances the party's goals. So given that, lying to liars was even expected, in a way.

 

Fare thee well, Mr. Vanderboegh.

Let's consider his last words to the public:

 

Vanderboegh's Guidance to Tom Ray et al:

For many years I have introduced myself as a Christian libertarian who believed in God, free men, free markets, the rule of law under the Founders' Republic, and that the Constitution extended to everyone regardless of race, creed, color or religion.

As I take my leave from this existence, I must admit that the Constitution, as the Founders crafted it, is now or soon will be dead – killed by corruption and collectivism and mostly by our own sloth and moral cowardice in opposing its enemies.

Yet if the Constitution is dead as an organizing and unifying force in this nation, the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights can never die as long as there remain free men and women who believe in the Founders' vision. This is the essence of the Three Percent, that no matter how small our numbers are – if we remain armed and determined – we may yet preserve the flickering flame of liberty.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Uh oh. Turf war.

 

On Thursday, the two ATF officials failed to appear before the committee looking into the assault on the agents. ATF Acting-Director Thomas Brandon, an Obama Administration holdover appointed in 2015, claims he did not order the two ATF officials to skip the hearing Fox News reported. However, he said he agreed with their decision to bypass the Oversight Committee’s hearing.

 

The failure of the two ATF officials to voluntarily appear before Congress sparked the issuance of a subpoena and sharp rebukes from both sides of the aisle.

 

“That puts us in a kind of awkward position. We got the boss, ‘OK guys, you don’t have to show up.’ And that sends a hell of a message. That’s a problem,” Elijah Cummings (D-MD), the ranking Democrat on the committee, said.

 

 

Irritating Mr. Cummings is not a great idea.

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  • 2 months later...

Part III of the Congressional Oversight Committees' report has been released.

Fast And Furious: Obstruction of Congress by the Department of Justice

It's a few hundred pages and I have not yet read it.

On 6/20/2011 at 3:35 PM, Mark K said:

Obama will get to get to pick all the replacements at the ATF. Looks to me that he be able to demand the resignations of several people in the Phoenix US Attorney's office as well, based on what was said about them in the hearing.

 

I think he should invite agents Dobson and Focelli over for a beer soon. They earned it. They have proven their courage and the only safe place for them in the Agency now is in management, and they know who the smart prosecutors are in the region and can advise on who to pick for the Phoenix DOJ office.

It didn't quite go that way. Dodson spoke to Congress yesterday. Whistleblowers are punished, not invited over for a beer.
 

Quote

 

...

One of those silenced ATF agents, John Dodson, testified Wednesday that he remains “in a state of purgatory” since objecting to Fast and Furious and has been the subject of reprisals and ridicule at the agency.

“That decision, the single act of standing up and saying, ‘What we are doing is wrong’… instantly took my standing from being that of an agent of the government – to an enemy of the state,” Dodson said. “ATF and DOJ officials implemented an all-out campaign to silence and discredit me… Suffice to say, the last six to seven years at ATF have not been the best for me or my career.”

 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...
On 6/28/2012 at 5:36 PM, Uncooperative Tom said:

Well, Holder is officially in contempt of Congress.

On 11/2/2017 at 5:03 PM, Bus Driver said:

The Attorney General of the United States perjured himself.  And, there will be those who don't care.  Let that marinate.

Over 5 years isn't long enough to sit in the sauce?

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  • 1 month later...

A straw buying case that started two years before this thread was started is finally coming to a conclusion.

There's no particular connection to Obama or the Project Gunrunner programs at ATF in this case. Just putting it in this thread because it involves straw buying and guns bound for Mexico. And the crimes started in 2009, same year Obama was inaugurated, so is probably all his fault.

Sorry for the particularly gun-nutty source. Here's a more mainstream one if you want it, but it really has far less info about the case.

My opinion of the case is that this guy was completely out of control.

 
Quote
...

It appears that Busby was selling firearms parts at gun shows when he was approached and asked to act as a straw purchaser for Jose Maria Deleon. Deleon, it appears, had contacts with clients in Mexico. Deleon was said to have contacted Busby and arranged for Busby to purchase a receiver for him.

Then Deleon arranged for Busby to assemble receivers into functional firearms. If that is what happened, assembly is not the same as manufacture. But Busby also violated currency reporting law by purchasing dozens of postal money orders.  The action in the case happened from 2009 to 2012.

...

Busby had been warned. In July of 2011, acting on a tip form Fort Worth Police Officers, Federal agents had searched Busby's home and inventoried all his firearms. Busby signed a letter telling him to cease and desist in engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license.

From justice.gov, March 16, 2017:

During a search of Busby’s residence in July 2011, federal agents cataloged all the firearms and ammunition at the residence. That same day, Busby signed a letter putting him on notice that he was to cease and desist in engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license and advising him that several of the firearms he had sold had been recovered during criminal activities. In spite of the notification, one of the firearms cataloged that day at Busby’s residence was later found in Mexico by authorities.

 

He got six and a half years. I guess no one told the court about the gun show loophole.

If they knew he was in the business of selling guns back in July of 2011, they would also have known of the more easily proven conspiracy and financial crimes for which he was ultimately convicted. He got a letter?

(rant trigger warning)

JBSF, what should we do with the laws on the books?

 

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  • 3 months later...
12 hours ago, Ishmael said:
13 hours ago, Dog said:

"DOJ inspector General Michael Horowitz has released a scathing report detailing multiple lies, the majority under oath, told by former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe before he was fired". 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/04/13/breaking-inspector-general-report-torches-andrew-mccane-n2470734

Very non-partisan source.

Townhall may not be, but IG Horowitz seems credible to lots of people, me included. That's why the idea in the McCabe thread that he/his office have been corrupted is rather shocking to me. If true, we won't have a government much longer. But I seriously doubt it's true.

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On 6/8/2017 at 7:00 AM, jocal505 said:

John Dodson, Obama's Mex.PNG

You can believe The Trace if you want. I'll continue to believe the Inspector General on that subject.

Unless it's proven that he's a political hack who is trying to get McCabe. But that seems as unlikely as The Trace telling the truth about Dodson.

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

You can believe The Trace if you want. I'll continue to believe the Inspector General on that subject.

Unless it's proven that he's a political hack who is trying to get McCabe. But that seems as unlikely as The Trace telling the truth about Dodson.

The article quoted in the poster was from Forbes, and it presented a disturbing angle. Hmmm, Fast and Furious was fallout from a sustained Libertarian assault, started by Libertarian wackos, the Sipsey St. Irregulars, and handed off to others for a conservative republican witch hunt on proper gun management.

You are cherry picking one detail, digging out a report showing a backdrop: the kneecapped ATF. A mature observer recognizes here the broader, complicated, dangerous matter of unfettered geopolitical arms distribution. F&F was manipulated to make a bad gun problem worse.

Tuk Tuk Joe participates a few posts upthread. But Darrell Issa has since disintegrated, personally, since the days of Tuk Tuk Joe. Many things have changed: that was then. IMO, the Fast and Furious matter would play out differently in today's atmosphere.

The misguided witch hunt after Fast and Furious is gaining some historical perspective, naturally, IMO.

 

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40 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Just a wild guess: you haven't read the IG's report, have you?

No one who had would be talking about proper gun management.

Your politicized report fits into a broader picture, with no saints on either side. 

BOTTOM LINE: We find that guns from the USA are out of control in Central America, contributing to Mexican gun mayhem. If kneecapping the ATF is part of the solution, Unca Tom, I'd be surprised.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Just a wild guess: you haven't read the IG's report, have you?

 

Well, I had saved it, probably from you. I found my own notes and highlights all over it.

In short, your scahting report happens in a setting of repeated abuses of our interstate trafficking statutes. The handcuffed LE efforts within "Fast and Furious" reeked of frustrated officers, trying to make a difference.  The smothered DA fell into inaction, finding their limits going against weakened  corroded, and gutted interstate  trafficking laws.

FAST AND FURIOUS: IMO, your elk won a round, and gained a speech on a flimsy cardboard soapbox too, but didn't accomplish much by merely stonewalling the problem in the American SW with this affair.

I used to live in Albq.

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16 hours ago, jocal505 said:
18 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Just a wild guess: you haven't read the IG's report, have you?

 

Well, I had saved it, probably from you. I found my own notes and highlights all over it.

Oh. I thought just not reading was the problem. The problem of comprehension is more basic and probably can't be fixed.

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26 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Oh. I thought just not reading was the problem. The problem of comprehension is more basic and probably can't be fixed.

I even re-read the thing, Unca Tom. The report touches on a lot of ancillary behavior, caused by gutted gun laws. The report does not help the problem of straw buyers supplying guns to Mexican cartels, which is the underlying problem. The report is ripe to be used for cherry picking, your specialty. 

Have you decided if Issa is your friend, or not? He did no favors to New Mexico.

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  • 4 months later...
5 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Isn't Tom going to trot out ATF Gunwalking one mo time? You know, that thing that got started in W's ATF but then got blamed on the Kenyan. Good times.


I wasn't planning on it but it might be a good idea. There seem to be gaps in your knowledge. For example, started and then shut down as a stupid idea under W, restarted when someone decided it wasn't so stupid under Obama, then revealed to be indefensibly stupid by the Inspector General's report.

 

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Ah, quite righteous today, eh? Let's see if Unca Tom supports and quotes the Special Prosecutor's report on the  NRA. ;).

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  • 3 months later...
On 1/27/2015 at 5:50 AM, dogballs Tom said:
On 11/29/2014 at 7:56 PM, Tom Ray said:

 

  On 1/22/2014 at 6:44 AM, Tom Ray said:

 

  On 8/23/2012 at 5:37 AM, Tom Ray said:

Accountability Means Sweetheart Deals for stonewallers, for whistleblowers... not so much.

 

  Quote

A letter sent today from Sen. Chuck Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa to B. Todd Jones, Acting Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, asked how “a top ATF official involved in Operation Fast and Furious…can remain on paid leave while simultaneously drawing an additional six figure salary from a major financial services company,” a House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform release announced.

...

“Under any reading of the relevant personnel regulations, it appears that ATF management was under no obligation to approve this sort of arrangement. Given McMahon’s outsized role in the Fast and Furious scandal, the decision to approve an extended annual leave arrangement in order to attain pension eligibility and facilitate full-time, outside employment while still collecting a full-time salary at ATF raises a host of questions about both the propriety of the arrangement and the judgment of ATF management.

“ATF has essentially facilitated McMahon’s early retirement and ability to double dip for nearly half a year by receiving two full-time paychecks—one from the taxpayer and one from the private sector,” the letter maintained. “Moreover, ATF did not wait for the Office of Inspector General to complete its report on Fast and Furious before approving the arrangement.

“This is in sharp contrast to the posture the agency has taken with whistleblowers like Special Agent John Dodson, who is told he must wait until the Inspector General’s report is complete before the agency will even consider his simple request for a statement retracting the false statements made about him by agency leadership,” the letter pointed out.

McMahon's second job? Working for JP Morgan.

Man, that set off a rant!

 

“J.P.Morgan has ATF's credit card account,” one source contacting this correspondent volunteered. “No big surprise that McMahon landed in a cushy job there.

...

“Wait a minute,” whistle-blowing agent and author of “No Angel, My Harrowing Undercover Journey to the Inner Circle of the Hells Angels” Jay Dobyns wrote to ATF and Department of Justice lawyers and managers in an email this morning, referencing the McMahon report. “ATF and DOJ are suing me for over a half million dollars for an alleged violation of ATF’s media policy and alleged violations of my outside employment agreement while at the same time sanctioning McMahon to work full time outside of ATF?

“The charges against me a fabricated, embellished are nothing more than a retaliatory prosecution, and McMahon gets greased?” Dobyns continued.

 

Maybe Dobyns is a bit less pissed now...

 

ATF Now Promoting Book It Tried To Kill

 

 

WTF is happening in the Dobyns case? Judge voids his own order and brings down the Cone of Silence.

 

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/politics/2014/11/25/atf-agent-lawsuit-judge-voids-own-judgment/70127148/

 

Judge in Dobyns case: ATF Committed Fraud On The Court

Coming up on four years since that ruling, which was appealed, of course.

Justice Delayed, Justice Denied
 

Quote

 

...

Today, his lengthy legal battle against the agency he once served may finally come to an end.

Dobyns will appear in U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington D.C. His attorney will make the argument, with evidence and an Inspector General report, that corrupt ATF bureaucrats ignored threats and then attempted to falsely convict him with arson.

...

"I filed a lawsuit in the United States Court of Claims. Pre-trial, I was proposed a sizeable settlement, an amount that far exceeded what I ultimately won in court. I refused it. The government executives and lawyers who offered it did so not to let me walk away, but rather so they could issue a hush money payoff that would ensure their dirty deeds would go unexposed and hidden," Dobyns said about the case. "After a five-year litigation and trial, Judge Francis Allegra concluded that the government abandoned, betrayed and retaliated against me in the face of known, credible and verified murder contracts from a variety of international crime syndicates and their associates."

"The DOJ immediately appealed my winning verdict. Their threat to extend the fight and out-resource me wasn’t a bluff," Dobyns continued. "Even if you win against DOJ, you don’t really win.  At best you survive, or surrender. One of the most humiliating events of my life is the official title of my lawsuit: Dobyns v. U.S.A. I never have been, nor ever will be against the U.S.A. I spent my entire adult life, spilled my own blood, gallons of it, fighting for her."

Dobyns continues that fight today.

 

I celebrate Uncooperative people who won't just do the sensible thing, take the settlement, and walk away.

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1 hour ago, dogballs Tom said:

Coming up on four years since that ruling, which was appealed, of course.

Justice Delayed, Justice Denied
 

I celebrate Uncooperative people who won't just do the sensible thing, take the settlement, and walk away.

Yes. And you celebrate any guy with an illegal battle gun. Carry on, with some balls. Such thinking is putting Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi in jail.

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2 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

Sexist. I celebrate women like my wife and her battle gun too.

If her thinking and research is rotten, like yours, she can be a jailbird too, in some parallel facility.

Will she go big with race-baiting when behind bars?

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  • 1 month later...
5 hours ago, Olsonist said:

The United States has very loose tool control. In fact, there was this program that got started in the W administration which let tool owners in the US send their tools into Mexico. This was actually a bad thing but Republicans only started complaining about it when the Kenyan got elected.

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under the W administration and revived under Obama because the tolerance for such stupidity in the name of gun control was suddenly increased when he took office.

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On 12/6/2018 at 4:54 AM, jocal505 said:

If her thinking and research is rotten, like yours, she can be a jailbird too, in some parallel facility.

Will she go big with race-baiting when behind bars?

That would be "separate but equal".

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5 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Dogballs, so this gunwalking which you now admit started under W, did W or Tony G know about it?

I "now admit" something I've been talking about since 2011.

When you start a question with another lie about me, I'm more inclined to prove you lying again than to answer.

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16 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

I "now admit" something I've been talking about since 2011.

 When you start a question with another lie about me, I'm more inclined to prove you lying again than to answer.

That post does not link to you admitting the program starting under W. Is there actually evidence somewhere you "admitted" that or were you hoping everyone was so tired of your bullshit they weren't going to check?

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44 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

People who have time to read things like the relevant Inspector General's report instead of just spewing insults and talking points know that the reality is that the stupid program was shut down under the W administration and revived under Obama because the tolerance for such stupidity in the name of gun control was suddenly increased when he took office.

I thought we were talking about tool control.  Why do you make every thread you post in about dogballs?

SAD!

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On 6/25/2011 at 11:14 AM, dogballs Tom said:

Operation Gunwalker and the Gungrabbing Senators contains a link to a report issued this month by Senators Feinstein, Schumer and Whitehouse. Here is what they have learned so far about this little ATF operation:

 

Quote
Project Gunrunner is an ATF-led initiative in cooperation with federal,

state and local law enforcement agencies and the Mexican government

intended to “stem firearms trafficking to Mexico by organized criminal

groups.”

 

Since it began in 2006, Project Gunrunner has had notable success.

I seem to have "admitted" that the very successful Project Gunrunner was in operation in 2006. And naturally, DiFi and Schumer were big fans.

Who was President in 2006 again?

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4 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

I thought we were talking about tool control.  Why do you make every thread you post in about dogballs?

SAD!

You're lost again. The latest post about banning scary guns that shoot the censored ammo is over here.

As always, there are lots of threads in which I'm not talking about the TeamD campaign to ban our squirrel shooters, but as always, those won't interest you.

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1 hour ago, dogballs Tom said:

I seem to have "admitted" that the very successful Project Gunrunner was in operation in 2006. And naturally, DiFi and Schumer were big fans.

 Who was President in 2006 again?

That was not the post you linked to. The whole discussion thing works better when the links you give are related to the claims you're making.  

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On 11/1/2012 at 8:18 AM, dogballs Tom said:

The Executive Summary of that Oversight Committee report seems accurate to me:

 

Quote
Consistent with a desire for a new emphasis on prosecuting gun trafficking cases, at around the same time, Lanny Breuer, Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, assigned a prosecutor to a dormant firearms trafficking case out of the ATF Phoenix Field Division known as Operation Wide Receiver. Under prior Department leadership, Wide Receiver was not prosecuted, in part due to the reckless tactics used in the investigation. Both Breuer’s resurrection of the prosecution and the Department’s new strategy, however, provided the imprimatur for the Phoenix Field Division to create Operation Fast and Furious.

Lanny Breuer revived a program that had been abandoned by prior leadership because it was reckless.

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12 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

I "now admit" something I've been talking about since 2011.

When you start a question with another lie about me, I'm more inclined to prove you lying again than to answer.

That's nice but did W or Tony G know about this program that got started under W in 2006? Did either of them cancel it?

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8 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Did you also miss that the gun walking started in the Bush Administration? You're welcome.


No, I talked about how it was started, stopped because it was stupid, restarted because grabbers took power and don't mind stupid, and eventually resulted in an Inspector General's report on DOJ misconduct that you won't discuss.

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Did you see that part in the IG report about Mukesey not knowing about Wide Receiver? It was almost as if the Tucson and Phoenix ATF offices were rogue. Of course the National Russian Association prevented any ATF Director from getting confirmed from 2004 to 2011 and that might of had something to do with it.

So let's just say that the Non Gun Grabbing got started by the Non Gun Grabbers who didn't know about it.

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3 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

So let's just say that the Not Gun Grabbing got started by the Non Gun Grabbers.

I'd go along with that. One reason I didn't vote for W was that he said he'd sign one of those stupid scary weapons bans that are only supported by TeamD these days.

Back then, banning our scary guns was a Duopoly project and I was well aware of it and voted accordingly. Not sure why this is important today? Or relevant to prosecutorial misconduct in the Bundy case? Just a distraction?

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  • 3 weeks later...
19 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
19 hours ago, hermetic said:

how many people have actually gone to jail for lying to congress?

No idea. I’ve never heard of anyone being stupid enough to try to get away with it, until this crew came along.


It's brand fucking new and Eric Holder wasn't held in contempt of Congress in a bipartisan vote over his lying to them.

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  • 2 months later...

Were those redacted pages from W's administration? You know, the administration that started the gunwalking. I ask because Tom and his superfriends don't seem so interested in that phase of the investigation. Someone needs to ask because ...

image.png.170d3a1320c5ac924f1ebad8a12da3d8.png

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18 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Were those redacted pages from W's administration? You know, the administration that started the gunwalking. I ask because Tom and his superfriends don't seem so interested in that phase of the investigation. Someone needs to ask because ...

image.png.170d3a1320c5ac924f1ebad8a12da3d8.png

A lie is out there, but people who have read this thread know that W's administration shut down Project Gunrunner because it was reckless and stupid.

The Obama restarted it, possibly also because it was reckless and stupid.

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18 hours ago, Olsonist said:
On 4/23/2019 at 4:56 AM, Importunate Tom said:

Seems a bit closer to the President than the AG's wife, who some say is covered by Executive Privilege.


Well, they did say it, right up until an Obama appointee told them no.

So they subpoenaed the wife and the mother of the black AG of the black guy who succeeded the white guy (and stupidly restarted the gunwalking program) whose AG started the whole gunwalking thing (and stopped it once someone realized how stupid it was.) Now did they subpoena the wife and the mother of the AG who started the whole gunwalking thing?

No, possibly because that administration halted the stupid program.

The coverup that generated the subpoena  was necessary because restarting it was so stupid as to be inexplicable.

There was no coverup under the administration that simply realized they were being stupid and stopped.

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9 hours ago, badlatitude said:
9 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

The executive behavior in response to congressional requests that they don't like isn't any different now than it was when Obama and Holder didn't want to answer questions about fast and furious.   As you said - it'll go to the courts, and that's when your comments and questions will matter.  Now?  It's just another instance of you prematurely making a lot of noise about not a helluva lot. 

The fact is you have no more idea of what will happen than anyone else. All I did was say that Congress has the power to arrest and imprison. Obama and Holder sought remedy with the courts and the judge agreed that the contempt citation was out of line.


How did I miss that?

Which judge, in what case, and when?

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Wow. I knew she was good because she called out Obama's bullshit executive privilege claim, as noted above.

But denying a motion for contempt of court isn't agreeing "that the contempt citation was out of line" because contempt of court and contempt of Congress are different things. She would have no occasion to comment on the contempt citation by Congress.

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4 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

Wow. I knew she was good because she called out Obama's bullshit executive privilege claim, as noted above.

But denying a motion for contempt of court isn't agreeing "that the contempt citation was out of line" because contempt of court and contempt of Congress are different things. She would have no occasion to comment on the contempt citation by Congress.

I'm not so sure about that, the courts are a separate branch that has oversight as well.

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7 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

More lies from the faithless, lying Reich . .  (I-Tom)  

NRA Provides Details on Obama's Mexican Gunrunning OperationThe Obama Regime deliberately allowed American guns to be smuggled into Mexico, knowing that they would be used to create mayhem when they inevitably bounced back across the deliberately under-defended border. The purpose: to undermine our constitutional right to bear arms by using American-bought guns in Mexican hands as a propaganda cudgel. 

Looks like you have learned to copy and paste and are working on finding the appropriate thread, still a ways off from citing a source.

Still, at least one sorta useful skill to add to your inane name calling.

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2 hours ago, Importunate Tom said:

Still, at least one sorta useful skill to add to your inane name calling.

Sure beats being a lying POS  

Point being: fast & furious was a complete Reichista hissy-fit nothing burger . .

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20 hours ago, Olsonist said:
20 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

So - the Obama administration's "compliance" with Issa's investigation proceeded much like this administration's "compliance", with the same claims of privilege, and the same outrage about the lack of willing compliance.   So - so far, there's really no difference in how each administration behaved.  Seems to me that the precedent has been established that the courts will have to decide in each case whether oversight = the ability to say "Bend Over and cough".  

Did you read the documents in question?


I did, and share the Inspector General's conclusions that restarting and expanding the program was reckless and that the administration attempted to conceal pertinent facts about the recklessness.

 

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4 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:


I did, and share the Inspector General's conclusions that restarting and expanding the program was reckless and that the administration attempted to conceal pertinent facts about the recklessness.

 

So will actually give a shit about the current issues we face with the current POTUS in 8 years?  Is that how long it takes for you to give a damn? 

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35 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

I did, and share the Inspector General's conclusions that restarting and expanding the program was reckless and that the administration attempted to conceal pertinent facts about the recklessness.

Awesome, Tom has read the documents and then he immediately veers onto a conclusion about something else. Can you summarize these documents? Did they establish whether Holder, Obama or Reverend Wright knew about this program the W + Tony G started?

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Well, of course the real issue is that folks like Tom and the NRA have turned the US 

into a gigantic arms bazaar for the Mexican drug gangs. 

The blood of tens of thousands is on their hands.   

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2 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Awesome, Tom has read the documents and then he immediately veers onto a conclusion about something else. Can you summarize these documents? Did they establish whether Holder, Obama or Reverend Wright knew about this program the W + Tony G started?

The motion to not comply with the subpoena was denied because the DOJ had already released most of what had been subpoenaed.  So - after the courts ruled against the administration, the administration complied with the subpoena.  Much like I suspect will happen in the current situation. 

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Again, I’m interested in the content of the documents so as to judge the character of the request.

I don't think I understand what you're after - not being intentionally obtuse, I thought you were asking about the ruling on Executive Privilege and how it related to the subpoena? 

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The Kenyan’s EP was been overruled and the subpoena was granted. So we can also judge the both Kenyan’s exercise of EP and the relevance of the subpoena by looking at the documents.

Y’all opened this door by comparing the Kenyan’s exercise of EP with that of Shitstain’s. In the case we know the documents. In the second we have a redacted version of Mueller’s report and we’d like to question Mueller. So I think we can judge the similarity here on the content rather than the exercise.

Did Issa (who is now unemployed) find anything germane in the Kenyan’s documents?

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14 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Again, I’m interested in the content of the documents so as to judge the character of the request.

No you're not, or you would have answered your questions to me above by reading the responses already posted.

 

3 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Awesome, Tom has read the documents and then he immediately veers onto a conclusion about something else. Can you summarize these documents? Did they establish whether Holder, Obama or Reverend Wright knew about this program the W + Tony G started?

Not true, yes, and yes.

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2 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Cite please.

Start here.

After a while you'll get to the time when the IG's report came out. Most posts after that are mine because your elk didn't want to talk about it.

Maybe tomorrow morning I'll bump a bunch of them for you to ignore once again.

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

The Kenyan’s EP was been overruled and the subpoena was granted. So we can also judge the both Kenyan’s exercise of EP and the relevance of the subpoena by looking at the documents.

You opened this door by comparing the Kenyan’s exercise of EP with that of Shitstain’s. In the case we know the documents. In the second we have a redacted version of Mueller’s report and we’d like to question Mueller. So I think we can judge the similarity here on the content rather than the exercise.

Did Issa (who is now unemployed) find anything germane in the Kenyan’s documents?

IIRC - Issa DID find pertinent content in the requested documents.  I still don't understand what point you're trying to make w/r/t judging this administration's claim of EP. Are you saying that because Issa did find something, that the judicial review of this admin's EP claims should be decided by making them comply w/the subpoena and then deciding based upon a review of the redacted content whether this admin's claim of EP is valid?    

 

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33 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

Start here.

After a while you'll get to the time when the IG's report came out. Most posts after that are mine because your elk didn't want to talk about it.

Maybe tomorrow morning I'll bump a bunch of them for you to ignore once again.

Thank you for your fool’s errand. Now do you have a cite? Remember, you’ve read the documents. This should be easy.

You can even ring up Issa (who’s unemployed) for a lifeline.

(They’re playing fucking Queen at the sushi bar. Fuck if they get a tip.)

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On 10/5/2011 at 8:39 AM, Importunate Tom said:

Holder received frequent memos on gunwalking, but none contained details, or at least not details that he understood. Or something.

 

Quote
WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

 

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

 

Yet internal Justice Department documents show that at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious.

 

Read the new documents

 

Read the July 5, 2010 memo

 

Read the "It's a tricky case" email

 

Read the memo to AG Holder from Asst. AG Lanny A. Breuer

 

The documents came from the head of the National Drug Intelligence Center and Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer.

 

In Fast and Furious, ATF agents allegedly allowed thousands of weapons to cross the border and fall into the hands of Mexi