Bill Garden Passes

[Donn 0]

I received a call today saying that Bill Garden has passed away. He was in his early nineties and had been frail for the last few months, but had returned to his sweet little island "Toads Landing" near Sidney. His last day consisted of a walk around the island, after which he laid down for his final rest. Most fitting for a man of his stature.

 

His contribution to yacht design spans decades and his life was full and rich. I had the honor of visiting him several times in the last few years and he was still drawing designs with a sharp pencil - without the aid of glasses. The detail on the half models he was building was phenomenal - his workshop a living museum.

 

I'll share some pictures when I dig them out of the archives.

 

Sail on, Bill. Sail on.

[paps49 371]

Sad news but what a wonderful long life. Fair winds Bill.

[cap10ed 0]

The great ones are picking up anchor and sailing over the sunset. Great character. I wrote him a letter years ago about an older design of his and he counseled me out of it based on cost,complexity and the fact there was a shit load of faster boats already built and looking for an owner. He saved me years of work but I still loved that old design. He is probably hooking up with Phil Bolger at Fiddlers Green for a pint.

[Boatworks 8]

Sail on Bill...

[sailak 29]

I never knew much about the man himself, although his work has seen me through thousands of miles in safety and in comfort. It sounds like he was able to go in comfort after living a long and full life, if only all of us may have such luck! May he rest in peace.

[Poco A Poco 0]

One of the Gods of sailboat design...

[Jose Carumba 3]

A wonderfully eclectic designer with an inimitable style. So sad to see him go. We'll drink a round to you Bill._______________/)___

[paps49 371]

Put a little Bill in your Spike, or is that some Spike in your Bill. Im sure they will figure it out with a pencil. Just like the constipated accountant.

[kimbottles 719]

We have lost one of the Greats of Yacht Design.

 

When I was visiting Bob day before yesterday he showed me a loose leaf tablet of Garden designs that Bill had given him years ago. Clearly it was something Bob treasured. So we were discussing Bill and thinking kind thoughts about him and his work just a few days ago.

 

Many years ago I wrote to Mr. Garden about Oceanus (my favorite of his sail designs) and he was kind enough to respond with a long hand written letter about her. I still have that letter.

 

Oceanus was one of the vessels on my mind when I went to Bob for the Sliver design.

 

Fair Winds Mr. Garden.

 

Kim

[Bob Perry 913]

I met Bill when I was 15.

I crewed for him when he raced OCEANUS.

I visted his office many times.

I think he had the very best eye in the business.

This is indeed sad news.

[Dan33 4]

If anyone has a photo of Oceanus would they please post it...she must be special.

[kimbottles 719]

If anyone has a photo of Oceanus would they please post it...she must be special.

 

Best I could do scanning from one of his books with my home scanner. She was a wonderfully complex double ender with a stern like you have never seen before. I once sat on the dock for about an hour just staring at her stern. It is a shame she was broken up a while back. Wish someone had at least saved her stern.

Oceanus.pdf

[kimbottles 719]

If anyone has a photo of Oceanus would they please post it...she must be special.

 

Here you can kind of see her stern configuration. But you really had to see her in person to truely appreciate her shape. Pity the poor guy who had to plank that stern.

Oceanus2.pdf

[viktor 19]

Very sad to hear of Mr. Gardens passing. Fair Winds.

Also sorry to hear of the fate of Oceanus. Last I saw her she was on the hard in Anacortes.I was always hoping someone come along and fix her up. Would you happen to know when, where and why she was broken up?

[kimbottles 719]

Very sad to hear of Mr. Gardens passing. Fair Winds.

Also sorry to hear of the fate of Oceanus. Last I saw her she was on the hard in Anacortes.I was always hoping someone come along and fix her up. Would you happen to know when, where and why she was broken up?

 

I heard that Oceanus was broken up by the yard after her owner abandoned her. Don't know how accurate that is....

 

Here is another presumed Garden double ender in sad shape (Tatoosh maybe?). I came across her in Bothell and took these with my cell phone. Never did find out anything about her, house was foreclosed and fenced off.

[Donn 0]

I received a letter a couple of years ago from Bill and revised drawings of the 1953 Oceanus. I had visited the old boat in Anacortes and am attaching a photo. We were discussing the purchase of Oceanus but the obstinate owner said he would put the chain saw to her instead, which he did. But I have the updated drawings.

 

Bill was not only a great designer, but a wordsmith as well. The following is a quote regarding Oceanus from his hand written letter:

 

"Oceanus was one that I'm sorry you missed, an all time great boat that I should have brought with us when we moved back up here - but always a great reminder of the good years that we had her. In a fresh breeze she was a real galloper. Sailing her from port side forward in the cockpit, chocked off on the lee coaming, elbow fitting into the angle of the coaming / deckhouse, port side eye squinting up the spray-damp deck to the lee shroud telltale & away she goes - or went, whatever."

 

The letter goes on to describe the revisions to Oceanus for modern day construction. A boat I would love to build. Don't know if any of you have seen it, but I'll see if I can get a copy made or scanned and post it.

 

In the meantime, here's a picture of Oceanus on the hard in Anacortes.

[Donn 0]

While visiting with Bill I snapped a photo of a picture he had hanging in his drawing room. It's obviously several generations old, but it shows the lovely backside of Oceanus, back in the day.

[Donn 0]

Sorry about all the individual posts but I'm struggling with uploading multiple photos.

 

This is a picture of Bill at 90 yrs. old with a just-finished half model for a client.

 

Bill was an artist.

[Donn 0]

More Oceanus pics.

 

and when Bill wrote: "fitting into the angle of the coaming / deckhouse" in the aforementioned letter, I believe this is where he was referring to.

[Donn 0]

More from Bill's letter regarding the revised Oceanus - and the poignant ending I neglected to quote earlier:

 

"Anyway, the revision ended up with an aft cabin added, otherwise about the original layout forward but with a head aft in the saloon. A Crown in the original, but a diesel in the revision, plus a 110 gen set under the cockpit for today's elec' needs. Rig about the same. Hull with spring to the sheer and the ends pulled out 4' for deck room aft & a longer bow. C.B. moved aft with a fuller run & some flare worked in forward. I'll have her built & ready to go when we all meet at St. Peter's dock yard, then off on effortless voyaging...."

[Soñadora 8]

wow Maldon. Thanks so much for sharing.

 

I have both of Bill's design books. What a career. I consider him the conduit between 'old school' (Stevens, Herreschoff) and 'modern' (Perry, Tanton, Paine). His hand drawn perspectives are amazing.

 

He was a prolific designer, designing everything from Barqs to Bayliner Buccaneer.

 

Bob mentions Oceanus in his book. It's an 'interesting' point of view.

 

Vaya con Dios, Bill

[Donn 0]

Bill's 2008 revised Oceanus drawings.

[Tanton Y_M 182]

A long life designing boats!

What can be better.

Never to have to retire.

Living forever by his creations.

I always wanted to be Bill Garden.

[Mooneshine 0]

I've had Mooneshine for the last 7 years, every time I leave the boat I have to look back and give her a kiss. He drew some amazingly beautiful boats.

[Mooneshine 0]

 

ass.bmp

[Dan33 4]

I'm new to Mr.Garden...but it doesn't take long to see the genius.

[Jose Carumba 3]

A wonderful memory from my childhood was going on a short sea trial aboard Nereus, a square rigged motorsailer Garden designed and the family yard built. I think it is in his first book. Some years later my dad took me to Shilshole marina to see Oceanus which was for sale and which he was considering buying. He never did. Oh well.

[paps49 371]

I've had Mooneshine for the last 7 years, every time I leave the boat I have to look back and give her a kiss. He drew some amazingly beautiful boats.

 

She's a beauty all right. Is she custom or production?

[Donn 0]

I created a couple of photo albums of Bill and Toad's Landing, but not sure how to link them to this post.

 

You can find them in the Gallery section under Bill Garden and Bill Garden 2.

[Ishmael 6,837]

In eight years of cruising our C&C29, the only spot we ever touched bottom was right in front of Toad's Landing, on a little pinnacle that hardly shows on the charts, gliding upwind against the current.

 

Was hellish loud, for the negligible impact.

[paps49 371]

I created a couple of photo albums of Bill and Toad's Landing, but not sure how to link them to this post.

 

You can find them in the Gallery section under Bill Garden and Bill Garden 2.

 

Great shots, here's a link. Gallery Who knew there was such a thing?

[kimbottles 719]

I'm new to Mr.Garden...but it doesn't take long to see the genius.

 

 

Several people came up to me yesterday at the boat shop dedication and asked if the Sliver design was a modern Oceanus, one actually said: "I wondered how long it would be until someone built the modern Oceanus."

 

Well, Oceanus was in my mind (along with a number of other vessels) when I engaged Bob to design the modern Puget Sound daysailor, but other than size and the pointy stern I think the Sliver design is Pure Perry.

 

(However anything Bill Garden designed is a joy to see, so I don't mind the comparison at all. Especially now that Oceanus is no more.)

[Amoretto 0]

Step dad spent 25-30 or so years building a Sea Bird yawl in plywood that was Bills Design in Rudder before that rag went BK or closed. IIRC it was a 75 year anniversary take on the original, but for more modern design application and building ability. Not sure how many plans were sold or built. Currently sitting at a dock on lk washington.

 

Marty

[islandplanet 2]

I've had Mooneshine for the last 7 years, every time I leave the boat I have to look back and give her a kiss. He drew some amazingly beautiful boats.

 

Mooneshine,

You have a pretty boat. That's a great picture overall.

[kimbottles 719]

Step dad spent 25-30 or so years building a Sea Bird yawl in plywood that was Bills Design in Rudder before that rag went BK or closed. IIRC it was a 75 year anniversary take on the original, but for more modern design application and building ability. Not sure how many plans were sold or built. Currently sitting at a dock on lk washington.

 

Marty

 

Someone should throw a Garden gathering this summer to honor his designs and body of work. I for one would love to attend a gathering of Garden vessels. He sure put a lot of character into his designs!

[Bob Perry 913]

Back when I was a kid, probably 16, I was scrubbing down OCEANUS one day and I found the "hidden" extra set of keys to the boat.

This was back in the day when we thought the Russians were going to drop a big bomb on us.

If that happened, my plan was to steal OCEANUS and sail north.

Kids!

[Donn 0]

When I was a lad, about 12 - 13, we lived about 5 houses from Bill in N. Seattle. His house was set back, privately from the street. I was nuts about boats and Bill was a god-like icon. So many times I walked by his house wanting to go knock on his door, but alas.... I didn't meet him until much later, and when I told him that story, he chided me, of course. I often wonder how my life would have changed. I might have met Bob Perry!

[blackjenner 11]

Back when I was a kid, probably 16, I was scrubbing down OCEANUS one day and I found the "hidden" extra set of keys to the boat.

This was back in the day when we thought the Russians were going to drop a big bomb on us.

If that happened, my plan was to steal OCEANUS and sail north.

Kids!

 

Huh. North.

 

Not south and west?

 

 

 

 

 

[Soñadora 8]

When I was a lad, about 12 - 13, we lived about 5 houses from Bill in N. Seattle. His house was set back, privately from the street. I was nuts about boats and Bill was a god-like icon. So many times I walked by his house wanting to go knock on his door, but alas.... I didn't meet him until much later, and when I told him that story, he chided me, of course. I often wonder how my life would have changed. I might have met Bob Perry!

 

what do you mean 'might'? You did! Look right above your post. There he is!

 

And Bob, I was wondering the same thing. North. huh.

 

Did I mention that we spent the weekend outside watching a soccer tournament? Temp: 33. Wind chill: blue balls (I don't mean soccer balls). And throw some stinging, icy rain/sleet/snow into it.

 

I've had fucking enough of "North".

[Jose Carumba 3]

Back when I was a kid, probably 16, I was scrubbing down OCEANUS one day and I found the "hidden" extra set of keys to the boat.

This was back in the day when we thought the Russians were going to drop a big bomb on us.

If that happened, my plan was to steal OCEANUS and sail north.

Kids!

 

Huh. North.

 

Not south and west?

 

Uhm, south and west would put him on Bainbridge Island, or Blake Isalnd, or......Bremerton.

 

[belandm 0]

North would be through the Inside Passage to Alaska - and if there would have been anywhere nearby free of large amounts of nuclear weapons and fallout, that would have been it.

 

However, given the number of military targets in the area, it's kinda doubtful any such planning would have been useful.

[Ishmael 6,837]

North would be through the Inside Passage to Alaska - and if there would have been anywhere nearby free of large amounts of nuclear weapons and fallout, that would have been it.

 

However, given the number of military targets in the area, it's kinda doubtful any such planning would have been useful.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0rG2ME4sAc

[SemiSalt 231]

Curiously, I can't find any independent confirmation of his death on the internet. The only obituary that I can find is based on the notice here. (I know, I was link.) Nothing on Wikipedia, for example, though the page for him there is surprisingly sparse. Google doesn't find any newspaper reports.

[Nessun Dorma 0]

Yeah I was noticing that too. I thought Bob Perry said he got a call from someone about it but I think I was mistaken, all the info may have come from here.

 

Odd that there is nothing out there.

 

Curiously, I can't find any independent confirmation of his death on the internet. The only obituary that I can find is based on the notice here. (I know, I was link.) Nothing on Wikipedia, for example, though the page for him there is surprisingly sparse. Google doesn't find any newspaper reports.

[Soñadora 8]

Maldon, how did you hear about this?

 

In any case, here's some cool pics

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Perry 913]

Those pics of Bill make me sad.

[Donn 0]

As per my notification of Bill's death, I got the call from one of, if not his closest male friend. The call was quite detailed in that he'd been in the hospital with what he thought was a heart attack. Turns out it was broken ribs. As you can tell from the pics, Bill was small in physical stature, but very active physically. Anyway, they let him go back to the island. Not sure how many days passed before his death, but I have no reason to doubt the report.

 

I agree with you who've been searching for an obit or death announcement. I've been doing the same and must admit I thought one would show up by now. Who is in charge, in terms of family, I'm not sure, but that might be the hold-up. Hope I didn't breech family privacy, but I wasn't told it was some hush, hush thing.

 

Again, I have no doubt in the validity of the report, but I'm just as curious as you guys.

[Soñadora 8]

Bob

 

I'm sorry they make you sad.

 

Bill was 7 years shy of 100. Look at the life in his eyes in that last pic. Check out the half model in that vise. It looks fresh. He lives on forever. His heart and soul is spread all over this world. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to make that claim. I'm pretty sure I won't have a Toad's Landing to see me off peacefully into the afterlife.

 

Consider one thing Bill didn't have that you do have : community. My understanding from reading Bill's books is that he liked his seclusion. Nothing wrong with that. But it could mean that when you have joy, there's no one to share it with. Likewise when there is grief, there's no one to share it with.

 

When you grieve, Bob, we grieve with you. Likewise, we have all shared in the joys of your accomplishments.

 

 

 

Maldon, thanks for sharing.

[thirdworld 0]

I sadly learned of his passing while searching for drawings of my boat. Came across an article at www.intheboatshed.net. That got me searching to no avail for an official obituary. Fairwinds and following seas to nearly a centuries worth of maritime design and knowledge. And many thanks for designing a safe and sexy boat for me and my family.

[Donn 0]

Thanks, thirdworld, for the link.

[paps49 371]

Maldon, how did you hear about this?

 

In any case, here's some cool pics

 

 

 

 

 

 

He really was quite a rake in his earlier days wasn't he. And to the end the spark was still in the eyes. Reminds me of Errol Flynn in a way, except Bill got to ride the train to the last stop.

 

The marine version of Frank Lloyd Wright, a master of his craft to the end no matter how many upstarts wished his demise, professionally.

[SemiSalt 231]

Step dad spent 25-30 or so years building a Sea Bird yawl in plywood that was Bills Design in Rudder before that rag went BK or closed. IIRC it was a 75 year anniversary take on the original, but for more modern design application and building ability. Not sure how many plans were sold or built. Currently sitting at a dock on lk washington.

 

Marty

 

I think you must mean the SeaBird II design in Small Boat Journal. In small cruisers like that, Garden squeezed in as much capability as anyone. I thought it was pretty neat myself. I'm sure you are right that not many plans were sold. I've never seen a completed boat. I did see a picture of what looked like the same hull, but the rig and interior were different. Somewhere I read a letter from a guy who talked to Garden about the design and reported that his advice was "build a Thunderbird instead."

[Amoretto 0]

Semi salt,

 

Thank you for info, I was thinking it was Rudder that the design was in. I know the plans are around, sister and I have been trying to remember/figure out the specs since the launching a couple of year back. i would probably agree with Bill, would have better to build a T-Bird! I have this group of moving pics when the it was moved from the house, to a local marina and put on a trailer he bought to store it etc at times. I have some, not very good pics of it sailing and launching day.

https://picasaweb.google.com/jjanwalter/SeabirdII02#slideshow/5113479143618832626

 

 

Found this slide show from the launch day

http://img188.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php

[hobot 2,275]

Thanks, thirdworld, for the link.

 

Yes Thirdworld, thanks.

 

 

 

what is it with pipes and Yacht Designers?

[Bob Perry 913]

I am grateful that we have these pics of Bill near the end. It's tough to see him looking frail and fragile though. But hell, he was 92.

 

My lasting image of him is from 1963, a very skinny, kind of shortish guy with hawklike features and a funny spring in his step. He was the picture of the "old salt". He built a box so he could stand on it and see over the top of OCEANUS's house when he was at the wheel.He wore apres ski boots on board and got mad at me one day when I showed up in my prized, brand new canvas Sperry Topsiders. "Those will bring rocks onto the boat!" I was so proud of my first pair of sailing shoes. When Bill talked to you it was almost like we worked at making everything he said sound profound and in fact, most of the time it was. There was no idle chatter with Bill. I worshipped the guy. I tried to hide it the best I could.

[Nessun Dorma 0]

No need to hide it now Bob.

 

Not that you are. At least not very well.

 

Its good to have heroes, even in our 50s and 60s. It makes us young and provides a sense of what we aspire to be. In your case, you became Bill Garden for a whole generation of sailors, me included.

 

.

I am grateful that we have these pics of Bill near the end. It's tough to see him looking frail and fragile though. But hell, he was 92.

 

My lasting image of him is from 1963, a very skinny, kind of shortish guy with hawklike features and a funny spring in his step. He was the picture of the "old salt". He built a box so he could stand on it and see over the top of OCEANUS's house when he was at the wheel.He wore apres ski boots on board and got mad at me one day when I showed up in my prized, brand new canvas Sperry Topsiders. "Those will bring rocks onto the boat!" I was so proud of my first pair of sailing shoes. When Bill talked to you it was almost like we worked at making everything he said sound profound and in fact, most of the time it was. There was no idle chatter with Bill. I worshipped the guy. I tried to hide it the best I could.

[kimbottles 719]

Thanks, thirdworld, for the link.

 

Yes Thirdworld, thanks.

 

 

 

what is it with pipes and Yacht Designers?

 

LFH smoked a pipe, maybe he started a trend?

[Bob Perry 913]

Yacht designers live in a tough world. A pipe gives us comfort.

[kimbottles 719]

Semi salt,

 

Thank you for info, I was thinking it was Rudder that the design was in. I know the plans are around, sister and I have been trying to remember/figure out the specs since the launching a couple of year back. i would probably agree with Bill, would have better to build a T-Bird! I have this group of moving pics when the it was moved from the house, to a local marina and put on a trailer he bought to store it etc at times. I have some, not very good pics of it sailing and launching day.

https://picasaweb.go...479143618832626

 

 

Found this slide show from the launch day

http://img188.images...show/player.php

 

The original Seabird Yawl was first published in Rudder magazine in the very early 1900's. It was a creation of Thomas Day and C.G. Mowers (Day was either the publisher or editor of Rudder, I forget which.) I learned to sail on a Seabird Yawl when I was about 8.

Here is an article for you who might be curious about the design: http://www.sonic.net...bird/index.html

Cheers

[SemiSalt 231]

I have some, not very good pics of it sailing and launching day.

https://picasaweb.google.com/jjanwalter/SeabirdII02#slideshow/5113479143618832626

Found this slide show from the launch day http://img188.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php

 

Thanks. It looks like your father did a nice building job. Garden noted in the write-up that the boat would sail better with a deeper keel. It looks even shoaler in the pics than on the plan. The plans consisted of three sheets, and I think they are all reproduced in one of Garden's books.

 

I think I'm catching on that all the sketches of wiry little guys on Garden plans are self-portraits.

 

Here is a picture of a more sophisticated design about the same size, the Capt. Blackburn cutter.

 

[blackjenner 11]

Yacht designers live in a tough world. A pipe gives us comfort.

 

I used to smoke a pipe quite a bit. I haven't in a while. I may take it back up now that I'm on board.

[Bob Perry 913]

Semi:

I don't think so. Bill had several little cartoon guys and for sure at least one of them was him. But he also had a "carrot nose" guy too and Bill certainly did not have carrot nose. But, I could be wrong. I suspect we'll never know now. I used practice drawing those guys and over time I came up with one that is my own self portrait but I never had the nerve to put one on my drawings. I wanted to but that was Bill's thing.

 

I never saw Bill smoke a pipe.

 

I think my favorite Bill cartoon guy was the one he drew fast asleep on a bunk on an inboard profile of his little cat schooner JUNE BUG. The guy is wearing a watch cap and has cradled in his arms a bottle with XXX on the label.

 

I have kept a tube next to me for years. It contains a drawing done on a scrap of vellum about 16" by 30". It's a 32' gaff cutter in the plank on edge style. I saw the drawing in a magazine and I called Bill and said, "I want that drawing." He said, "Fine, I'll send you a print." I said, "No, I don't want a print I want your original drawing." There was a brief moment of silence and then Bill said, "Do you want me to color it?" I said, "Do what you want just send me the drawing. Please."

 

I got the drawing, colored. I have kept it near me ever since. It came in a tube addresssed to Bob Perry N.A.. What an honor that was.

 

Saturday morning with ND, Hung and Steve Rander from Schooner Creek in my office we got the news. Steve knew Bill and he immediately teared up. We stood there kind of dumb struck and then I pulled out the tube and we all admired the amazing drawing.

[thirdworld 0]

Semi salt,

 

Thank you for info, I was thinking it was Rudder that the design was in. I know the plans are around, sister and I have been trying to remember/figure out the specs since the launching a couple of year back. i would probably agree with Bill, would have better to build a T-Bird! I have this group of moving pics when the it was moved from the house, to a local marina and put on a trailer he bought to store it etc at times. I have some, not very good pics of it sailing and launching day.

https://picasaweb.go...479143618832626

 

 

Found this slide show from the launch day

http://img188.images...show/player.php

 

The original Seabird Yawl was first published in Rudder magazine in the very early 1900's. It was a creation of Thomas Day and C.G. Mowers (Day was either the publisher or editor of Rudder, I forget which.) I learned to sail on a Seabird Yawl when I was about 8.

Here is an article for you who might be curious about the design: http://www.sonic.net...bird/index.html

Cheers

 

Right you are Kimb. The Seabird Yawl was a Charles Mower design, commissioned by Thomas Day. The smallest boat to cross the Atlantic in its day, or so I've been told. I currently own one that was homebuilt in Alaska in 1932. A wonderful sailing boat. If anyone could improve it, it would be Mr. Garden.

[Nessun Dorma 0]

Hearing of Garden's death was said for all of us. I know it hit Bob harder than most.

 

Yet there was a magical moment for me later that day, when I was able leisurely to thumb through two long out of print dog-eared portfolio collections of Bill Garden designs while drinking scotch and listing to Bob and Hung play blues guitar and sing late into the night.

 

I took a short video on my phone of them playing and singing earlier in the day, but I am saving that for blackmail purposes at a later date.

I got the drawing, colored. I have kept it near me ever since. It came in a tube addresssed to Bob Perry N.A.. What an honor that was.

 

Saturday morning with ND, Hung and Steve Rander from Schooner Creek in my office we got the news. Steve knew Bill and he immediately teared up. We stood there kind of dumb struck and then I pulled out the tube and we all admired the amazing drawing.

[Bob Perry 913]

ND:

So what you are saying is I can forget about AMERICAN IDOL.

[Nessun Dorma 0]

I will reserve jusdgement until I see you play more sober.

 

ND:

So what you are saying is I can forget about AMERICAN IDOL.

[Donn 0]

Semi:

I don't think so. Bill had several little cartoon guys and for sure at least one of them was him. But he also had a "carrot nose" guy too and Bill certainly did not have carrot nose. But, I could be wrong. I suspect we'll never know now. I used practice drawing those guys and over time I came up with one that is my own self portrait but I never had the nerve to put one on my drawings. I wanted to but that was Bill's thing.

 

I never saw Bill smoke a pipe.

 

I think my favorite Bill cartoon guy was the one he drew fast asleep on a bunk on an inboard profile of his little cat schooner JUNE BUG. The guy is wearing a watch cap and has cradled in his arms a bottle with XXX on the label.

 

I have kept a tube next to me for years. It contains a drawing done on a scrap of vellum about 16" by 30". It's a 32' gaff cutter in the plank on edge style. I saw the drawing in a magazine and I called Bill and said, "I want that drawing." He said, "Fine, I'll send you a print." I said, "No, I don't want a print I want your original drawing." There was a brief moment of silence and then Bill said, "Do you want me to color it?" I said, "Do what you want just send me the drawing. Please."

 

I got the drawing, colored. I have kept it near me ever since. It came in a tube addresssed to Bob Perry N.A.. What an honor that was.

 

Saturday morning with ND, Hung and Steve Rander from Schooner Creek in my office we got the news. Steve knew Bill and he immediately teared up. We stood there kind of dumb struck and then I pulled out the tube and we all admired the amazing drawing.

 

Bob: The Oceanus Revision drawing I received is also colored: a blue boot top at the fore and aft ends and buff cabin top. The pics I posted of drawings don't expand very well, but if you look closely you might see the coloration and you can also see the helmsman Bill drew. Since it was his final cruising boat, I'm going to imagine that it's Bill at the wheel.

 

I still marvel at how he always nailed the proportions of his characters just right. A lovely touch.

[Bob Perry 913]

ND:

There's the rub. If I am sober I sure as hell won't be singing.

[belandm 0]

Bob, you're too sensible for that nonsense. Sing! Human voices aren't made for mere conversation. Anybody who tells you you can't sing, tell 'em to fuck right off with a quickness. Goes double for anyone who's so utterly soulless as to be a judge of other people's singing ability on TV.

[Bob Perry 913]

Matt:

I've played for far too long not to have noticed that there is no musical quality to my voice. I'm comfortable with that. But every once and a while I let it rip and nobody complains but me.

[SemiSalt 231]

Amoretto, you were right, and I was wrong. It was Rudder that commissioned the SeaBird II design. The three sheets are reproduced (at small scale) in Yacht Designs, International Marine Publishing, 1977.

 

[Amoretto 0]

Salt,

 

I was pretty sure it was a Rudder 75th anniversary version using modern materials of the original. I've been trying to figure out some of the info over the last few month thru searches etc, and have not been able to find anything. Not even at the place that has his drawings. Then again, most are labeled unknown or some such BS.

 

That plan is the one I am remembering seeing the last time I saw them, back in the early 80s before moving out of the house. Is there a page that lists demensions, ballast etc?

 

Marty

[SemiSalt 231]

The ballast casting is shown at the bottom of the lines plan. I note it says "iron pattern", so perhaps the finished size (when the iron has cooled) is a bit smaller. At any rate, it's drawn upside down from the way it goes on the boat. Garden designed for the builder, not for wall paper.

 

[tad 3]

That got me searching to no avail for an official obituary.

 

No memorial service and no obituary printed as per Bill's wishes.....

There will be a brief notice in the next issue of WoodenBoat and that's it....

 

Bill was adamant that the boats (his work) stand on their own merits, (most pretty dam good, some great, a few not so great), he wanted no idolization or adulation at all.....

[Donn 0]

Thanks, Tad.

 

Farewell, Bill.

[kimbottles 719]

That got me searching to no avail for an official obituary.

 

 

No memorial service and no obituary printed as per Bill's wishes.....

There will be a brief notice in the next issue of WoodenBoat and that's it....

 

Bill was adamant that the boats (his work) stand on their own merits, (most pretty dam good, some great, a few not so great), he wanted no idolization or adulation at all.....

 

 

He need not worry, his work will live on for a long time!

Bob Perry considers Bill Garden the father of the character boat.

It would be very hard to argue against that notion.

[SteveInSeattle 0]

Indeed are you serious? The moron cut up Oceanus, the single greatest design ever built? Are there any more details what led to this disaster?

 

When I moved home to Seattle in 1997 (Bainbridge), I looked for her for years. I asked just about everyone I could find, including scores of Garden boat owners, and never got so much as a single lead. I spoke to Mr. Garden back in 84 by phone (he was an old friend of my grandfathers) to get his advice on how to pursue my career as a Naval Architect/Mechanical Engineer. He had great advice for me for which I'll always be grateful, and I let him know when we spoke that my study of Mist, Toadstool, and above all, Oceanus, were the inspiration that turned me on to Naval Architecture: He commented that indeed Oceanus was amazing.

 

 

I received a letter a couple of years ago from Bill and revised drawings of the 1953 Oceanus. I had visited the old boat in Anacortes and am attaching a photo. We were discussing the purchase of Oceanus but the obstinate owner said he would put the chain saw to her instead, which he did. But I have the updated drawings.

 

Bill was not only a great designer, but a wordsmith as well. The following is a quote regarding Oceanus from his hand written letter:

 

"Oceanus was one that I'm sorry you missed, an all time great boat that I should have brought with us when we moved back up here - but always a great reminder of the good years that we had her. In a fresh breeze she was a real galloper. Sailing her from port side forward in the cockpit, chocked off on the lee coaming, elbow fitting into the angle of the coaming / deckhouse, port side eye squinting up the spray-damp deck to the lee shroud telltale & away she goes - or went, whatever."

 

The letter goes on to describe the revisions to Oceanus for modern day construction. A boat I would love to build. Don't know if any of you have seen it, but I'll see if I can get a copy made or scanned and post it.

 

In the meantime, here's a picture of Oceanus on the hard in Anacortes.

[kimbottles 719]

Indeed are you serious? The moron cut up Oceanus, the single greatest design ever built? Are there any more details what led to this disaster?

 

When I moved home to Seattle in 1997 (Bainbridge), I looked for her for years. I asked just about everyone I could find, including scores of Garden boat owners, and never got so much as a single lead. I spoke to Mr. Garden back in 84 by phone (he was an old friend of my grandfathers) to get his advice on how to pursue my career as a Naval Architect/Mechanical Engineer. He had great advice for me for which I'll always be grateful, and I let him know when we spoke that my study of Mist, Toadstool, and above all, Oceanus, were the inspiration that turned me on to Naval Architecture: He commented that indeed Oceanus was amazing.

 

 

 

We should get together sometime. I also live on Bainbridge and love Garden designs.......especially Oceanus.........

[fishingbobber 1]

November 04, 1957 Sports Illustrated

A Boat For A Bride

The most talked-about design off Bill Garden's drawing board is the unorthodox 'Oceanus,' built to lure his new wife to sea. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1132928/2/index.htm

[tad 3]

Bob Perry considers Bill Garden the father of the character boat.

It would be very hard to argue against that notion.

 

The origins of any idea are always hard to pin down. Certainly Mr. Garden's character ketch and schooner designs popularized the concept, and perhaps more than any other designer....But learning about those who influenced his work is also interesting. Murry Peterson published the drawings for his "Coaster" schooner in Yachting magazine in the early 1930's. She was a miniature yachting version of the big old commercial coasting schooners, and the design included clipper bow with trailboards and monkey rail with turned posts around the aft deck. In the late 1930's Hugh Angelman designed and built the first Seawitch in California, again with clipper bow and aft monkey rail. For sure Garden was aware of these boats when he went at it after the war...how much influence they had we don't know.....

 

Similar with the heavy diesel cruisers....Monk and Hansen had been doing them for a while in Seattle, De Fever was doing them in Southern California, Garden took the concept and added his own commercial boat experience to create something unique, some would say better than the forerunners.....But without the forerunners would the final product have happened at all?

[Bob Perry 913]

Tad:

I think history likes to draw lines. "This started here. Let's give it a label." It's a neat and tidy way to arrange things. But I agree with you, seldom accurate. I once asked Bill who influenced him and he reeled off a long list of old designers including Bill Atkin, H.C. Hansen and Murray Peterson. Don't really remember any more names.

 

I see Bill's unique contribution as taking what I would call traditional designs then exagerating them to almost cartoonish proportions. "Yolu want a clipper bow? I'll give you a clipper bow." That's where I think the "character" boat came from. I think the old Mayflower ketches would fall into the same category. They just didn't have Bill's flair.

 

Maybe it's like music. What would Mozart have done without Haydn? What would Beethoven have done without Mozart or Bach? What would the Beattles have done without Buddy Holly? The lines are easy to establish years after the fact but blurred in the dynamic reality of the moment.

 

I'm not a fan of everything Bill drew. But I can't think of a single Garden design that didn't immediately catch my attention power or sail.

[Fiasco 1 2]

Truly sad we often cut thru the two islands past his home on the way to Swiftsure and other races always loved the mural on his boat house / shed. Sail on..

[tad 3]

Bob,

 

Well as you know the real magic is in creating a "character" design that is just short of cartoonish, it's so easy to drop over that edge. Garden was a master at skirting the edge but never going over. I think Ben Seaborn was a big influence on some Garden designs in the late 50's and early 60's. Somewhere I have a drawing I'll post if I find it.

 

Here are my recent thoughts on William Garden's influence on me and the yacht design world in general.......Garden

 

And another piece on design ideas and how they influence others......Design Ideas

[miloman 0]

Bob,

 

Well as you know the real magic is in creating a "character" design that is just short of cartoonish, it's so easy to drop over that edge. Garden was a master at skirting the edge but never going over. I think Ben Seaborn was a big influence on some Garden designs in the late 50's and early 60's. Somewhere I have a drawing I'll post if I find it.

 

Here are my recent thoughts on William Garden's influence on me and the yacht design world in general.......Garden

 

And another piece on design ideas and how they influence others......Design Ideas

 

"publish or perish" is a great quote. So many designers are best remembered for their writing. Billy Atkin, Weston Farmer, L. Francis Herreshoff... all are well remembered, partially because they were great writers as well as great designers.

 

"what would Bill Garden do?"

[Bob Perry 913]

Tad:

I think for the fun of it I'll disagreee with you. We can have a better exchange that way.

I don't know anything about the Garden/Seaborn relationship. I have asked from time to time but I never got a clear answer as to how they intereacted. I have come to the conclusion that they didn't.

Have you ever spoken to Ed Monk Jr. about Bill? That's an interesting chat.

 

Seaborn had it figured out well before most designers in the US. He was the first, as far as I know, to use regular wing geometry drafting techniques, i.e. chord breakdown into percentages, to draw keels and rudders ( see SEA FEVER's drawings.

I always thought Ben must have a had a Boeing engineer connection and in fact I know that one of the partners for SEA FEVER was a Boeing engineer.

 

Bill never figured it out until much later. Look at where he put the rudder on OCEANUS and ZIA. And look at the rudder shapes. Not exactly leading edge. Even the boats that Bill did that were suppoosed to be CCA boats, like the Gulf 40, were pretty bad boats and never competitive even in the homogenous Seattle racing fleet of the early '60's. Bill even did a boat with reverse sheer. But it was narrow and weirdly shaped and never a contender. I know just how fast OCEANUS was. I raced on it many times when I was in high school. OCEANUS was as fast as an 8 meter. We regularily raced against one in Seattle.

 

Bill would have produced some better sailing boats if he had paid more attention to what Ben was doing. Bill was Bill and nobody had or has Bill's eye for proportions and aesthetics. But Ben was also special and what he did that was "weird" those many years ago is accepted by everyone today. Ben was doing fin keels and spade rudders when S&S was still doing "full keel" designs.

 

I have probably broken some unpsoken rule here by even being a bit critical of Bill's work but I'm a fan and I love his designs warts and all and there were quite a few warts in terms of perfrmance.

[Bob Perry 913]

Tad:

I read your piece on Garden and "I'm not sure I agree with your police work there Lou."

 

Hardin's Sea Wolf, according to Bill, had nothing to do with him. He told me he thought it was drawn by Hardin's son. I look at the boat and I see nothing "Garden" about it.

I could be wrong but I don't think so. Show me Garden one drawing that looks like the SEA WOLF. Bill had Walloon built in Taiwan, a 37' ketch. I often wondered if the origins of the Hardibn boat were not in a stretched and bastardized version of Walloon. But I would never believe Bill drew the Hardin 41 without a drawing.

 

Bill had some words of wisdom for me too. "Yacht designers are like violin players. All supply and no demand." I think his advice for me as I grew older became more and more negative. One afternoon I had tea with him when my band was up playing in Victoria. He spent pretty much the entire time telling me about the lawsuits he had been involved in. That's cheery.

[kdh 75]

While I was driving through Stafford, CT yesterday from the 173rd Four Town Fair I saw a tattoo joint and thought, "how can a place like that survive, people eat a lot of hamburgers in their lives but even the most enthusiastic don't get many tattoos." Mrs. K pointed out that the Stafford Speedway was nearby. Unusual for her to draw an association like that, she hates prejudice--and she pointed out it's not a correlation. Sorry, we met getting PhDs in statistics.

 

Anyway, there aren't many boat designers left for what demand is left. Bob is a good one.

 

They had prize vegetables at the fair and oxen pulls and all sorts of stuff from 173 years ago.

[Bob Perry 913]

KDH:

I guess that might be a compliment.

I need it right now.

I am cooking a new recipe my wife picked out and it's not making a lot of sense.

Thanks.

[tad 3]

Tad:

I think for the fun of it I'll disagreee with you. We can have a better exchange that way.

 

Nice...thanks......

 

Have you ever spoken to Ed Monk Jr. about Bill? That's an interesting chat.

 

No, we've never met. Let me guess....my Dad did all this work and started BG off and Garden stole it all....or some such? Bill was human, just like the rest of us....and I guess this has always been a cutthroat business.

 

I don't know anything about the Garden/Seaborn relationship. I have asked from time to time but I never got a clear answer as to how they intereacted. I have come to the conclusion that they didn't.

 

Seaborn had it figured out well before most designers in the US. He was the first, as far as I know, to use regular wing geometry drafting techniques, i.e. chord breakdown into percentages, to draw keels and rudders ( see SEA FEVER's drawings.

I always thought Ben must have a had a Boeing engineer connection and in fact I know that one of the partners for SEA FEVER was a Boeing engineer.

 

Bill never figured it out until much later. Look at where he put the rudder on OCEANUS and ZIA. And look at the rudder shapes. Not exactly leading edge. Even the boats that Bill did that were suppoosed to be CCA boats, like the Gulf 40, were pretty bad boats and never competitive even in the homogenous Seattle racing fleet of the early '60's. Bill even did a boat with reverse sheer. But it was narrow and weirdly shaped and never a contender. I know just how fast OCEANUS was. I raced on it many times when I was in high school. OCEANUS was as fast as an 8 meter. We regularily raced against one in Seattle.

 

The reverse sheer boat is the drawing I'm thinking of....it looks exactly like Seaborn would have drawn (in profile), but it has a Rawson 30 flared bow! Weird....But the reverse sheer, big house windows, short keel with almost vertical leading edge and attached rudder.....In saying there was cross influence I was thinking of the flush decks, high-freeboard, and big windows....But I don't know who was influencing who....Monk was doing big windows as well, though not in sailing boats that I recall.

 

Bill would have produced some better sailing boats if he had paid more attention to what Ben was doing. Bill was Bill and nobody had or has Bill's eye for proportions and aesthetics. But Ben was also special and what he did that was "weird" those many years ago is accepted by everyone today. Ben was doing fin keels and spade rudders when S&S was still doing "full keel" designs.

 

I have probably broken some unpsoken rule here by even being a bit critical of Bill's work but I'm a fan and I love his designs warts and all and there were quite a few warts in terms of perfrmance.

 

Well if designer's don't criticize each others work, who will? I was told (long ago) that S&S were still not using "proper" NACA foil sections for keels and rudders in the late 70's......

 

Here's a warty Garden design for you.....I don't admire the rig or the appendages, or the arrangement or the house....But the style is rather breathtaking....Bob Harris called Bill "The West Coast L. Francis"....yes lots of individual problems (like the mizzen sheet into the dinghy) but overall she's fairly stunning....

 

[tad 3]

Tad:

I read your piece on Garden and "I'm not sure I agree with your police work there Lou."

 

Hardin's Sea Wolf, according to Bill, had nothing to do with him. He told me he thought it was drawn by Hardin's son. I look at the boat and I see nothing "Garden" about it.

I could be wrong but I don't think so. Show me Garden one drawing that looks like the SEA WOLF. Bill had Walloon built in Taiwan, a 37' ketch. I often wondered if the origins of the Hardibn boat were not in a stretched and bastardized version of Walloon. But I would never believe Bill drew the Hardin 41 without a drawing.

 

You may be correct but let me explain my thinking......I have a set of Hardin drawings here for the Sea Spirit (a smaller version of the Sea Witch) designed (and published) by Angleman and Davies. The Hardin drawings are copies with embellishments of the original Angleman drawings. They do not mention the designers names. Now we have several drawings of the Sea Wolf, here's the sail plan....

 

 

This drawing includes many Garden design elements yet is also obviously not a Garden drawing. Note the rig and it's proportions....pure Garden, the positions of the masts, the odd poked up bowsprit, even the areas and centers on the sails are typical Garden (depending on the draftsman). But the forward toilet is obviously outside the boat...hack job....the sail details and dimensions are Garden style, even the main halyard tail.....

 

Now look at this drawing from 3 years earlier.....The wooden version....look at the forefoot...pure Garden shape and arrangement of timbers, mast steps, ballast, etc....the same arrangement as Walloon or Foam or Porpoise.....Perhaps a clever copy of some Garden design?

 

 

Now look at Foam.....

 

 

 

 

Bill had some words of wisdom for me too. "Yacht designers are like violin players. All supply and no demand." I think his advice for me as I grew older became more and more negative. One afternoon I had tea with him when my band was up playing in Victoria. He spent pretty much the entire time telling me about the lawsuits he had been involved in. That's cheery.

 

Someday you and I should have tea and I'll tell you my lawsuit stories.....

[tad 3]

This is a letter from Latitude 38.....

 

The guy claims the Sea Wolf is a modded Mariner 40 (William Garden design) and that Bill knew this.....

 

HISTORY 101 OF TAIWANESE IMPORTS

 

My letter is in answer to the October issue inquiry by Frank Holland about the history of the Formosa 51 and similar designs. Some of your answer wasn't quite accurate. Since I was involved with imported yachts from the early '60s, I can tell you how it all started.

 

My family and I were living on our old gaff yawl after returning from a trip to the South Pacific in 1963. I'd just had back surgery and was looking for a job that didn't require too much physical labor. When I was accepted as a salesman for a brokerage at Mystic Cove Marina in Marina del Rey, a whole new field opened up for me.

 

While working at the office one day, a new 30-ft ketch with loads of nice-looking woodwork arrived at our dock. The owners said that the builder, American Bill Hardin, who had good contacts in the Far East, could have any boat a person wanted built and at reasonable cost. Soooo, I made a deal with the owners. If they let me show the boat for one weekend a month, I'd pay their slip fees for the whole month.

 

The only problem with this arrangement was that they'd get up early on the appointed weekend and leave their boat - bunks unmade, galley full of dirty dishes, and the boat needing a good scrub down. So I had to do all that stuff to make the boat showable.

 

Nonetheless, the result of all this was the 31-ft Angelman ketch Sea Spirit. The broker I worked for had to order three boats to get an exclusive for his area, and he did. The boats were built in Yokohama, Japan. They were well built and just about trouble-free for the four to five years we handled them. In my estimation, they were better boats than the various American-made sailboat lines we later handled.

 

Later, Bill Hardin came up with a new design he wanted to build for us, a 40-ft ketch he called the Sea Wolf. The boat was basically a Bill Garden-designed Mariner 40 - only with more beam, a drop down overhead above the salon, and a few other changes. The broker I worked for sent me up to Washington to meet with Bill Garden, as he wanted to make sure the designer didn't feel there was a conflict with using what looked a lot like his basic hull design. Garden laughed at the idea of there being a conflict. He not only said there wasn't a problem, but that his Mariner 40 design really did need some extra beam.

 

The broker I worked for ordered three Sea Wolfs, which were built of wood. All three promptly sold.

It was about that time I told Hardin that I thought a small, aft-cabin boat would sell well. So he built us two 37-ft triple-laminated, fiberglass-covered aft-cabin sloops. I thought they were great, as they sailed well, had a great aft cabin with a double bed and head/shower, and a roomy salon. They didn't sell as well as they sailed, however, so we didn't order any more.

 

About this time, Mr. Harris, one of our Sea Wolf owners, came to see me. We'd done a lot of customizing on his boat and he loved it, but he still wanted something different. But he didn't know what. He asked what I thought would be good. I told him a salon on deck with an aft cabin. He liked the idea.

 

A little later I had to fly to Seattle to get a Sea Spirit off a ship for a customer, who happened to be the Second Mate on a Texaco tanker - as well as an ASA marine surveyor. He went over the Sea Spirit with a fine-tooth comb. Satisfied, he completed the purchase.

 

While in Seattle, I visited Bill Garden again, and explained about my ideas for a new boat for Mr. Harris. He didn't have anything like it, but said I could look through the drawers of all his designs. While doing this, I ran across a plan I'd never seen before. It looked like a Mariner 45 - not a 40. Garden said that several of them had been built by private builders. "I don't know what I did," Garden said, "but the owners say they are fast."

 

I asked if I could take a top and side plan, and he agreed. I am not an architect, but had taken a lot of drafting classes in high school. So I traced the hull lines - only I made her 48 feet long. I also added a nice, small aft cabin, salon on deck, and kept the Sea Wolf-type lower salon and forward stateroom. When I showed my revised drawings to Mr. Harris, he loved it. "How much?" is all he wanted to know.

 

I sent my crude drawings to Bill Hardin in Yokohama with a request for a price. When I got a tentative price, Mr. Harris agreed to it as long as we took his current boat in trade. Wow, I couldn't believe it! Neither could Hardin, who flew to Seattle to visit with Bill Garden to see what changes should be made in addition to the ones I made. Hardin told me that Garden added two feet to the length and 200 sq. ft. of sail area. This became the first Garden 50/51 - which was later copied in many different ways.

 

About this time, the broker and I came to a parting of the ways. It took me awhile to square away several sales, but I was paid all the money I was owed. I really enjoyed those years that I was involved with the Japanese-built boats. Ironically, I never saw the boat I helped design, as my wife and I took off to Europe where we purchased an old Hilyard 40 cutter with an aft cabin, and continued our cruising ways. However, Frank Kasala sent me photos that he said were of the laminated mold for the Garden 50, Formosa, et al. He ultimately fiberglassed it, finished her off, and sailed her around the Orient. He said she sailed well.

 

Years later, from '76-'77, I became involved with the Taiwanese fiberglass versions of this design. I found them to be very crude and in no way comparable to the Japanese versions.

 

In any event, I'm quite sure that Mr. Holland's Formosa 51 is a take-off of the boat I helped design. If he wants more info on her, he should have her surveyed by a marine surveyor who is familiar with Oriental imports. He should pay particular attention to the stainless steel tanks and rigging.

 

P.S. We also had some 33-ft trawlers built in Taiwan to compete with the Grand Banks 32s. Ours were admittedly more crude. Two of them were loaded onto a ship that then ran into a typhoon. Many of the waves broke over the deck of the ship, smashed the windows of the trawlers, and filled them with water. However, since there were no cracks in the hulls, we took it to mean the boats were basically strong and well built.

 

Bill Taylor

Brookings, Oregon

 

Bill - Thanks for the great historical information. And thanks for the copy of the full-page ad for the Sea Wolf - the text of which we're going to share with our readers:

 

"The Sea Wolf is made of wood. After trying boats of other materials, seasoned boatmen are returning to wood. Nothing yet has matched genuine wood for economy, for seaworthiness and for appeal. A boat hull, punished by constant 'working', must be able to flex millions of times without weakening. The only material that has proven itself capable of limitless bending without fatiguing, cracking or breaking is wood. (And when repairs are needed, they're cheaper and easier in wood.) Wood means greater comfort, too. It keeps out the summer heat and the winter cold; it provides a smoother ride. Wood is for you who enjoy the subtle signs of quality - well-joined cabinetwork, door and drawers that are smooth-fitting and snug, a quiet 'sound', the clean lines of planking, the honest look of a craft made not by machines but by men working with their hands. Wood is a beautiful material, a dependable material, a seagoing material. The Sea Wolf is wood."

[Bob Perry 913]

Tad:

Nice police work.

Very interesting and a story I had not heard before. Can't say I buy all of it though. Parts just don't jibe with what Bill told me.

Have you ever seen a Garden drawing of the Mariner 40? Bill was far from shy about publishing his designs.

I have never seen one.

 

Next time you are on your way to Seattle give me a ring. I'm not far out of the way.

 

Love that big yawl.

[tad 3]

Bob,

 

The Mariner story seems to be another wandering trail of derivatives.....

 

In the story above Bill Taylor has Garden acknowledging the Mariner 40 as his design. But in the existing Mariner ads and sales brochures they only acknowledge the Garden 35 (Mariner 35) as his design....All other designs are by Clair Oberly, owner of the company.....Who ever heard of a builder altering a designers work and claiming it was something else so no royalty for you? Even in the Mariner literature on the Garden 35, the drawings are generic and clearly not those done by Garden, and the design is clearly a close relative of Foam. Anyway in the drawings I've seen all the later Mariners could be scaled versions of the Garden 35, especially the 40.....See the ads below. To muddy things further the Mariner history seems to indicate 2 different 40's built at different times.......

 

One could perhaps clear up some of this by visiting the BG archives at Mystic....or not, Bill has mentioned that many early drawings were "scuttled" to make space in the office......

 

These are from Sea Magazine 1965

 

 

[Bob Perry 913]

Tad:

"A wondering trail of derivatives" I like that.

 

I just can't see any "Bill" in those Mariner projects and if there is any Herreshoff in that 30 unless it is a stretched 28.

One thing I do know is that I'm positive no royalties were paid with the exception of the S&S boat. That boat actually looks like an S&S boat.

 

I don't think there was much concern about intellectual property rights in Taiwan in 1965. The Americans who set up shop there and worked with the early Taiwan builders were a slimy lot at best.

[SemiSalt 231]

From Tad's essay:

 

In an age (40 years ago) when designers such as Phil Rhodes and Olin Stephens wore a clean white shirt and tie every day without fail, Bill Garden was casual and approachable in paint spattered overalls.

 

Easy to imagine when talking of a 30' ketch. Not so easy to imagine looking at the drawings of a 110' motor yacht.

[Jose Carumba 3]

Bob and Tad, it's great to hear your perspectives on Garden and Seaborn. One is not normally privy to these types of discussions. It's a privilege.

[Tanton Y_M 182]

Bill had some words of wisdom for me too. "Yacht designers are like violin players. All supply and no demand." I think his advice for me as I grew older became more and more negative. One afternoon I had tea with him when my band was up playing in Victoria. He spent pretty much the entire time telling me about the lawsuits he had been involved in. That's cheery.

Wisdom and lawsuits.

When I went on my own after leaving Carter Offshore. I paid a visit to Olin Stephens in N-Y. After all he was one of my sponsors, and got for me a Green card inside of 3 months. After a few words about wishing me good luck; the subject turned immediatly on a lawsuit he had been involved with. This was about a centerbord pin failure during a Bermuda Race. That is when I realized Olin tried to provoke fear.

[Kevin MaKenzie 0]

I agree, this thread like many others ( on this forum) is wonder full. In the future when the books written by the men who shaped their present but now our past are read, threads like this will be great annotate-able resources. This reading is priceless because principles are speaking to events and happenings of which only they have meaningful knowledge. Some how these threads must be saved for the future, no offense to the elders! What's was that John Denver sang, every ones sitting around the campfire...... It's a very nice place to be.

[Thorvald 0]

Being a Garden boat owner and fan I think I'll jump in here.I think you're right on there Bob. Even though my 36' Garden yawl is considered by most previous owners and myself to be a pretty good sailer, there are a few things that were never really right ever since she was first built in '49. I remember one of your posts where you mentioned that Bill himself asked you if you'd ever seen a boat with lee helm. Well funny he should say it because mine does have a weird lee helm under certain combinations of sail. Mainly I just have learned to avoid those combinations. Most of the time I have a proper small weather helm. It may be typical of the old CCA style boats that the shrouds were bolted to the wooden frames but that gives you about 18 or so degrees in this case from the forestay and as a result I really couldn't point anywhere near as close as I should have been able to. Finally after a little analysis of the mast per Skene's I figured out that the spreaders were about 3-4 feet higher than they should have been so by increasing the size of my lowers and cutting the spreaders off about 9 inches I was able to point about 5 degrees higher which got me into the barely acceptable range. Still with the working jib which isn't limited by the shrouds I can point quite a bit higher yet. Funny that a boat can go for 50 years or so and through many owners and still has such obvious deficiencies. I'm determined to correct most if not all of these as the old tub is in my barn now undergoing some major structural work. She does have some some real strengths and when the wind is up over twenty I've been able to outpoint and flat outsail boats that owed me considerable time PHRFwise. I've got a dirt cheap 30' plastic boat now, that I sail based on a Peterson half pounder that will outsail my old yawl under most conditions and has about a foot and a half more beam and alot more usable space inside which makes me wonder what the hell I'm doing sometimes rebuilding the old girl, but the row away factor is not even close. So my plan is to bring the shrouds in to about 12-13 degrees and with the aluminum mast that I was given by a good friend she may get a real boost in performance. Maybe my rating won't even change. Still the Peterson sails so well and was so cheap. Makes me wonder if I'm nuts.

Tad:

I think for the fun of it I'll disagreee with you. We can have a better exchange that way.

I don't know anything about the Garden/Seaborn relationship. I have asked from time to time but I never got a clear answer as to how they intereacted. I have come to the conclusion that they didn't.

Have you ever spoken to Ed Monk Jr. about Bill? That's an interesting chat.

 

Seaborn had it figured out well before most designers in the US. He was the first, as far as I know, to use regular wing geometry drafting techniques, i.e. chord breakdown into percentages, to draw keels and rudders ( see SEA FEVER's drawings.

I always thought Ben must have a had a Boeing engineer connection and in fact I know that one of the partners for SEA FEVER was a Boeing engineer.

 

Bill never figured it out until much later. Look at where he put the rudder on OCEANUS and ZIA. And look at the rudder shapes. Not exactly leading edge. Even the boats that Bill did that were suppoosed to be CCA boats, like the Gulf 40, were pretty bad boats and never competitive even in the homogenous Seattle racing fleet of the early '60's. Bill even did a boat with reverse sheer. But it was narrow and weirdly shaped and never a contender. I know just how fast OCEANUS was. I raced on it many times when I was in high school. OCEANUS was as fast as an 8 meter. We regularily raced against one in Seattle.

 

Bill would have produced some better sailing boats if he had paid more attention to what Ben was doing. Bill was Bill and nobody had or has Bill's eye for proportions and aesthetics. But Ben was also special and what he did that was "weird" those many years ago is accepted by everyone today. Ben was doing fin keels and spade rudders when S&S was still doing "full keel" designs.

 

I have probably broken some unpsoken rule here by even being a bit critical of Bill's work but I'm a fan and I love his designs warts and all and there were quite a few warts in terms of perfrmance.

[Bob Perry 913]

Thorvald:

I'm not sure you need to bring the shouds in that far.

For a modern design with a fin keel you would want your shrouds on the 12 degree line or close to it. But your old girl has a full keel do doubt and will never be close winded. While you may gain the ability to jam the boat higher on the wind I would guess that your VMG's will decrease. You might be better off sailing with an AWA of 36 degrees and enjoying the boat speed. But 18 degrees is a bit much UNLESS you can sheet inside the cap shrouds like we do on a Valiant 40.

 

I'd really like to see a pic of your boat.