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B.Chance Jr design boats


chorus1

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Just to start this topic, the first one ton from Chance before resolute salmon i mean Chance 37 fiber glass boat from Wauquiez in France .

One of the first one produced was in Belgium admirals cup as "Scarlett O'hara", half hull below :)

post-50842-099623400 1306030348_thumb.jpg

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where is Britt these days? Still in business? He had some pretty interesting boats as well as some big failures-people love to tell that old story about Mariner, but there were some pretty interesting and successful designs as well-ayone got any photos or good info or are we going to have to hear everyone's version of Turner's "geez Britt, even a turd is tapered"...?

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Didn't he also design a one tonner "Offshore One/34"?, which was built in Finland in the late 70s.early 80s? I have a brochure somewhere which I now have to search for.

5*

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What made mariner so bad?

 

Boating folk, more often than not,believe that beauty equals speed.

The reality however is that a 60foot classic Fyfe design with long overhangs

is limited to a shorter real waterline length than the modern squared off ends

that ensure that a minimum of 59ft11&19/20ths of boat are being used.

 

Mariner was a victim of the 12 metre Rule as seen by early computers hooked up to tank testing equipment. The result was to soak off displacement in underwater areas that "tested" as non hurtfull. The sparkling numbers from the crunchers gave a superior feeling that a breakthrough had been built, yet in the real world, as she went through the water... the drag induced swirling of fluid friction, slowed the beast faster than a IMF Director can run away from any wrongdoings by their bankers selling ponzi schemes.

 

Britt also claimed that the smaller towing models used at that time did not project up to full scale as accuratedly as the larger models they used later on S&S 87.

 

What about Equation? That seemed like a pretty fast and interesing boat, tall mizzen mast with folding spreaders, daggerboard.

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Mariner was a victim of the 12 metre Rule as seen by early computers hooked up to tank testing equipment.

 

 

Sounds like you know the story.

Do tell us what kind of computer Britt was using in 1973/74.

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What about Equation? That seemed like a pretty fast and interesing boat, tall mizzen mast with folding spreaders, daggerboard.

 

It seemed to me that Chance went down the road of minimum wetted surface all the way to the cul de sac at the end. His non-AC boats all had very rounded sections, and he used very high aspect ratio foils whenever he could. There's an Allied 30-30 around here that's very competitive in our usual <10 breezes. It has a "golf tee" rudder like they've discussed in the Dick Carter thread.

 

He also designed a couple very nice rowing boats. I think he had an office in Essex, CT and rowed to work on the Connecticut River sometimes.

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What made mariner so bad?

 

Short answer- big underwater transom

 

Dragging flat surfaces perpendicular to flow is rarely fast.... although if the flow had seperated cleanly, it might have worked like the "hula bubble" that NZ tried on the IACC boats. There were a lot of comments at the time that if Mariner could have gotten up to 20 knots, it would have worked great.

 

I give Chance a real salute for trying something new & different. At one level, it was like gambling with other peoples money; but OTOH they already knew how impossible it would be to beat S&S at the game with a more conventional design.

 

FB- Dou

 

{edit for typos}

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What made mariner so bad?

 

Short answer- big underwater transom

 

Dragging flat surfaces perpendicular to flow is rarely fast.... although if the flow had seperated cleanly, it might have worked like the "hula bubble" that NZ tried on the IACC boats. There were a lot of comments at the time that if Mariner could have gotten up to 20 knots, it would have worked great.

 

I give Chance a real salute for trying something new & different. At one level, it was like gambling with other peoples money; but OTOH they already knew how impossible it would be to beat S&S at the game with a more conventional design.

 

FB- Dou

 

{edit for typos}

 

Seems like at one time heard the idea was like steps on the unlimited hydroplanes that used to race, such as the Miss Budweiser, etc. back in the day.

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I always liked Chance's design because he obviously was not copying anyone. We had a very fast Chance 52'er in Seattle owned by bruce Hedrick, WARRIOR. WARRIOR was dominant for several years.

Bill Buchan raced a very pretty Chance 3/4 tonner for a few years with great success.

When I was a young man I always thought if I could chose a designer to work for it would be Britton Chance.

 

I think the main idea behind MARINER's fanny was an effort to increase the prismatic coefficient. The 12 meter rule made it hard to push volume into the ends in any "normal" fashion while encouraging a high volume midsection to avoid the skin girth/chain girth penalty. But I am far from an expert in this rule. Of course you can't tell the MARINER story without mentioning the famous Ted Turner quote whe he realized that MARINER was of the pace. Ted is reported to have said "Even a turd is pointed at both ends." I'm not sure if it's true but it's kind of funny I can can imagine Ted saying it.

 

I for one would love to see this thread develope like the Carter thread. Britt did some very interesting and effective boats. I'd like to know where he is now. What an amazing interview that could be.

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"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

 

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

 

Also failing memory, there was an observed drag reduction in tank tests at higher speeds where wave making drag predominates. Tank tests do not scale directly though because the fluid (water) is the same full scale and model size, so Reynolds numbers and Froude numbers cannot scale at the same time. Wave making drag can be predicted ok (Froude), but eddy making and frictional drag (Reynolds) does not scale so well from tank tests. So the results from Mariner tanks tests were mis-interpreted. Mariner probably would have been fast if conditions were such that it was going 12 knots or better all the time, which would have been rare, especially in Newport.

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I always liked Chance's design because he obviously was not copying anyone.

 

 

We had a very fast Chance 52'er in Seattle owned by bruce Hedrick, WARRIOR. WARRIOR was dominant for several years.

Bill Buchan raced a very pretty Chance 3/4 tonner for a few years with great success.

When I was a young man I always thought if I could chose a designer to work for it would be Britton Chance.

 

I think the main idea behind MARINER's fanny was an effort to increase the prismatic coefficient. The 12 meter rule made it hard to push volume into the ends in any "normal" fashion while encouraging a high volume midsection to avoid the skin girth/chain girth penalty. But I am far from an expert in this rule. Of course you can't tell the MARINER story without mentioning the famous Ted Turner quote whe he realized that MARINER was of the pace. Ted is reported to have said "Even a turd is pointed at both ends." I'm not sure if it's true but it's kind of funny I can can imagine Ted saying it.

 

I for one would love to see this thread develope like the Carter thread. Britt did some very interesting and effective boats. I'd like to know where he is now. What an amazing interview that could be.

I am with you Bob. I wa introduced to Brit with the 5.5 meters class in the 60's. No flower child, he had the sexiest designs of them all. He had boats with a chine above the waterline to maximize, minimize beam for the Rule. With swept back keel to the extreme. But what I am most appreciative is that Chance was one of my three Yacht Designers sponsors to be able to come to America with a green card. I will never forget.

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"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

 

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

 

Also failing memory, there was an observed drag reduction in tank tests at higher speeds where wave making drag predominates. Tank tests do not scale directly though because the fluid (water) is the same full scale and model size, so Reynolds numbers and Froude numbers cannot scale at the same time. Wave making drag can be predicted ok (Froude), but eddy making and frictional drag (Reynolds) does not scale so well from tank tests. So the results from Mariner tanks tests were mis-interpreted. Mariner probably would have been fast if conditions were such that it was going 12 knots or better all the time, which would have been rare, especially in Newport.

A 12 pounder going 12 knots? more like never!!!!

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Seems like at one time heard the idea was like steps on the unlimited hydroplanes that used to race, such as the Miss Budweiser, etc. back in the day.

Completely different theories drive those designs. Planing versus displacement.

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A 12 pounder going 12 knots? more like never!!!!

 

Anything can go fast - you just have to drop it from a great enough height.

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"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

 

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

 

Also failing memory, there was an observed drag reduction in tank tests at higher speeds where wave making drag predominates. Tank tests do not scale directly though because the fluid (water) is the same full scale and model size, so Reynolds numbers and Froude numbers cannot scale at the same time. Wave making drag can be predicted ok (Froude), but eddy making and frictional drag (Reynolds) does not scale so well from tank tests. So the results from Mariner tanks tests were mis-interpreted. Mariner probably would have been fast if conditions were such that it was going 12 knots or better all the time, which would have been rare, especially in Newport.

A 12 pounder going 12 knots? more like never!!!!

 

Took a Brit Chance 12 mtr around the top of Oz, going across the gulf of Carpenteria we were sitting on 10's hitting 13's under jib only in 25-30 knots. Boat handled it very nicely, didn't need any more sail,we were only 2 handed.

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"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

 

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

 

 

That was the polite version! ' even a turd's pointed at both ends ' was the verbatim from Terrible Ted!

 

 

Resolute Salmon - that was up in the Elephant yard on the Hamble before the OTC, and walking around it with David Thomas he remarked that if that things wins the OTC I'll eat my pipe!

 

Did a mixture of some really great boats but pushed the envelope a bit too far on others:))

 

Remember Perseverance - ketch with the mizzen perched way way back - come fresh out of the blocks and won the Channel race by a country mile, but after that one ( ideal, light reaching ) race never did a thing and was full on woofer.

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To comment B.Chance designs would you agree that he is one of very few IOR architects at that time to stay with narrow or pinched design ?

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wonder what ever happened to Equation?

There were some other boats-late IOR I guess with daggerboards, I seem to remember one 50 something footer in a Ft. Lauderdale-KW race in late 80's maybe early 90's that capsized on the way down?

There was also the infamous 40' IMS boat in the early 90's...but some of those big, very cutting edge IOR boats were cool-it would be fun to get some firsthand info on some of those innovative designs-bad and good

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There was also the infamous 40' IMS boat in the early 90's...

 

 

 

We raced against it and I seem to remember it being called Skoal - went through several refits and stints under shrink wrap.

 

 

that's the one - it was not ah, a "success"

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I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading in a mag as a teen that the boat had a bone in its tail instead of its teeth. Apparently there was quite a bit of turbulence spitting out the back.

 

I have a randon book on the mariner campaign that shows lots of photos of the strange 2 tiered wake that she put off. I think it was called 'The Grand Gesture", just a few months after it was built it was majorly refitted. If I remember correctly they make chance sound a little aloof and pompous.

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I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading in a mag as a teen that the boat had a bone in its tail instead of its teeth. Apparently there was quite a bit of turbulence spitting out the back.

 

I have a randon book on the mariner campaign that shows lots of photos of the strange 2 tiered wake that she put off. I think it was called 'The Grand Gesture", just a few months after it was built it was majorly refitted. If I remember correctly they make chance sound a little aloof and pompous.

 

If I remember correctly they cut off the entire stern and replaced it but could never make the boat right.

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"Would love to run across some photos of "eclipse", Chance 33' one-off that pretty much owned the SoCal 3/4-ton fleet back in the day... "

 

Don't think this is your boat but I crewed for several years on a Britt Chance 32-33 footer in San Diego called Hat Trick. The skipper was a very well known local competitor in the 70s and 80s named Rob Batcher and he used to tell hilarious stories about the boat and it's prior owner up in Newport Beach, Dick Deaver. Anyway, the boat was a real SoCal IOR killer because, as someone noted, Chance favored skinny hulls and deep keels and Hat Trick ( or Rat F--k, depending upon your perspective) would go DDW very well in light air and slop and just roll over much higher rated boats (I think Hat Trick rated just over 28 ft). Since Deaver had the North Sails loft in Newport for several years, there was an amazing sail inventory and Rob just had to figure what to bring and what to leave on the dock. No way in hell were you going to carry them all in that skinny hull.

 

Rob was a hell of a skipper but he was never going to be one of those "cost is no object to winning" guys and he would find ways to recycle and recut those sails and just kept winning no matter how much the competition spent. For a while he had a partner in the boat who had limited sailing experience but was willing to help pay the bills and one day they hit something hard cutting a little too close to Zuniga Jetty. Rob turned to his partner, who was probably already a little uptight, and reportedly said "John, go below and see if your half of the boat is sinking." I think they later found a big chunk of lead and fiberglass torn out of the keel.

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Anyone know what happened to the Admirals Cupper "Bay Bea"? Centreboarder IIRC.

 

Think Resolute Salmonn is on the Med domewhere these days.

 

Anyone know what happened to the Admirals Cupper "Bay Bea"? Centreboarder IIRC.

 

Think Resolute Salmonn is on the Med domewhere these days.

 

Anyone know what happened to the Admirals Cupper "Bay Bea"? Centreboarder IIRC.

 

Think Resolute Salmonn is on the Med domewhere these days.

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Some "souvenirs" about Chance 37.

 

I used to sail on her and then against her in the last 60's with my swan 37.

Chance was very fast from 15 knds wind, mainly beam wind and down wind, with a long waterline for a 37 feets and a large sailing surface.

Was difficult to get a good upwind sailng cause of the keel junction. (In heavy winds you can have had 80° angle between hull and keel : ! instead of 90°, although any chance 37 left their keel as far as i knew)

On the first hulls there was any reinforcement and Wauquiez then added a lattice fiber glass under the floor from behind the mast to the engine.

Chance 37 was the first to keep its full spinnaker with winds up to 30 knds in the solent (Belgium admirals cup team, sailed by André Nélis who worked at this time for Gaastra sailmaker if i remember well), she was like a locomotive moved by rabies, no way to get more speed !

Great design, original, one of the first flat underneath hull, very moderate width (30 cm less width as my S&S). At least one of the first deep and narrow helm vey usefull to keep the boat in line during strong downwinds stampede !

This design was very cute at that time.

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Swing Keel Ketch Chance 44 Jemel

"You get the crew she will do 33 Knots down wind surfing " and rolling till she takes her mast out.{ At least TWICE!)

 

post-27376-098645400 1306195391_thumb.jpg

 

Dreyfus and Seemann

built their first boat themselves. In

JEMEL, a Brit Chance designed 44-foot ketch

with a swing keel, they took on quite a

challenging project. Figure 1 shows the

complexity of this boat's deck layout.

 

I did the SORC in '74 on JEMEL a Chance 44 Ketch. With center steering, swing keel that could be brought into a trunk in side the cabin. The trunk had a adjustable slot sealing flaps. The mizzen mast had retractable spreaders to improve the sheeting on the stay sails. The Mizzen mast had no for-stay. There was a Aluminum tube straight forward off the Mizzen mast top to the main mast back-stay to replace the mizzen for stay. We took her mast out in a dark night broach , "NO WINGED JIBS_ CHUTES ONLY" watch in the Windward Passage off Cuba In the First Biannual Nassau to Kingston, Jamaica Yacht Race that year.

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I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading in a mag as a teen that the boat had a bone in its tail instead of its teeth. Apparently there was quite a bit of turbulence spitting out the back.

 

I have a randon book on the mariner campaign that shows lots of photos of the strange 2 tiered wake that she put off. I think it was called 'The Grand Gesture", just a few months after it was built it was majorly refitted. If I remember correctly they make chance sound a little aloof and pompous.

 

If I remember correctly they cut off the entire stern and replaced it but could never make the boat right.

 

Before the first trials were over BC was working on a new tail-end. Went into the shed and came-out with a more conventional bustle, but a narrow skeg-rudder arangement.

 

Didn't help much.

 

edit: According Conner, and there is a shot of BC with a legal pad in one of my vids, he would have a list of items where TT & DC were hacking it up, not sailing the boat right. That is supposedly what prompted TT to finally make the 'turd' statement after one of BC's discourses. At one point in the vid racing 'Courageous', who is going higher and faster, TT asks DC what the polar plot is. DC says they are going faster than what the plot says but they're still getting hammered by 'Courageous'.

 

Problem too was that 'Valiant' (no rocket herself) had been modified to the same stern configuration, so they had no idea how fast or slow they were until they raced either 'Courageous' or 'Intrepid'. (which had all her BC mods from 1970 removed by Driscol)

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Many years ago, probably mid '70's I was writing an article for SAIL, as I recall. I was doing comparison charts of D/L's and SA/D's. I wanted a wide range of boats so I picked a couple of Chance designs because I knew they would be at the end of each range. But I could not find the numbers I needed so I picked up the phone and called BC. I explained what I was doing and asked him if he could provide the numbers. He said and allow me to paraphrase, "No I won't. I can't possibly see how this could benefit me." I thought "How weird" and let it go.

 

I called my editor at SAIL, I think it was good old Marty Luray and told him what had happened. He said, "I can't believe you even called him!"

 

BC was a shy man and after the beating he took over MARINER I think he became more shy. I never knew him well enough to further comment on his personality. But I was a fan of his work.

 

I hope he is well and enjoying life.

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Boat Name: Frenzy

Sail: USA 107

Year Built: 1977

Designer: Britton Chance Jr.

 

Rodger does pretty well with his 6m.

6meterPtTownsend0811-1207013.jpg

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I crewed on a Chance 30-30 in the late 70's. It was a good boat and very competitive. It did need a blooper to avoid the rolling crazies going downwind in a breeze but so did most boats of the time. Went upwind well and tracked like a freight-train

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"Would love to run across some photos of "eclipse", Chance 33' one-off that pretty much owned the SoCal 3/4-ton fleet back in the day... "

 

Don't think this is your boat but I crewed for several years on a Britt Chance 32-33 footer in San Diego called Hat Trick. The skipper was a very well known local competitor in the 70s and 80s named Rob Batcher and he used to tell hilarious stories about the boat and it's prior owner up in Newport Beach, Dick Deaver. Anyway, the boat was a real SoCal IOR killer because, as someone noted, Chance favored skinny hulls and deep keels and Hat Trick ( or Rat F--k, depending upon your perspective) would go DDW very well in light air and slop and just roll over much higher rated boats (I think Hat Trick rated just over 28 ft). Since Deaver had the North Sails loft in Newport for several years, there was an amazing sail inventory and Rob just had to figure what to bring and what to leave on the dock. No way in hell were you going to carry them all in that skinny hull.

 

Rob was a hell of a skipper but he was never going to be one of those "cost is no object to winning" guys and he would find ways to recycle and recut those sails and just kept winning no matter how much the competition spent. For a while he had a partner in the boat who had limited sailing experience but was willing to help pay the bills and one day they hit something hard cutting a little too close to Zuniga Jetty. Rob turned to his partner, who was probably already a little uptight, and reportedly said "John, go below and see if your half of the boat is sinking." I think they later found a big chunk of lead and fiberglass torn out of the keel.

 

 

Different boat-Hat Trick was a production boat-very skinny. There were a few others around the same time-maybe a white one and a grey one? Cat's Pajamas or something like that?

 

Eclipse was a different boat-sweet bright finished transom and very fast

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I did the 74 or 75 SORC on a larger version of Jamel. She was a 54' called Beau Geste. The mizzen mast canted to windward and she had a hydralic lifting board. As I recall she had 2 companionways, one forward and one aft. The original main was cut a little long on the leach and when sheeted in to windward you would hit your head on the boom coming out of the forward hatch. When this was brought to Brits attention, he told us we didn't know how to hoist or trim the main. We had SOME fun with that for a couple of days. Brit and Buddy Fredricks sailing together was INTERESTING>

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Yeah I have a foggy memory of seeing a photo of Bay Bea going upwind in the AC and the pattern on the transom was very like that - I was 16 at the time and boat-obsessed. Plus, looking at the flush deck layout I think it's very likely this is a mid size race boat of that era. I believe Resolute Salmon is well looked after in the Med someplace, so it's not her. Bay Bea was top scoring boat in the AC that year, and was a centreboarder. All I remember.

 

Deserves saving...any VA based Anarchists can check it out?

 

Linky

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Yeah I have a foggy memory of seeing a photo of Bay Bea going upwind in the AC and the pattern on the transom was very like that - I was 16 at the time and boat-obsessed. Plus, looking at the flush deck layout I think it's very likely this is a mid size race boat of that era. I believe Resolute Salmon is well looked after in the Med someplace, so it's not her. Bay Bea was top scoring boat in the AC that year, and was a centreboarder. All I remember.

 

Deserves saving...any VA based Anarchists can check it out?

 

Linky

 

Definitely not Salmon, she had a coach-roof and no winch pedestal.

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The '77 BAY BEA was a 46 footer, cold moulded by PJ, with a daggerboard and deck stepped mast. Her stern certainly looked similar to the cited photo.

 

 

In the spring of '77, after a lack lustre SORC with teething problems, BAY BEA was selected over HIGH ROLER, skippered by DC, for the third slot on the US Admiral's Cup Team. Deaver was brought aboard to skipper BAY BEA in the '77 AC.

 

In the '77 AC, BAY BEA continued with inconsistent performances. IMP was highpoint US team boat, SCARAMOUCHE was second, and BAY BEA third. I believe a permanent fixed keel was added after BAY BEA's return to the US. A short career. That's probably her in the photo.

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Brit Chance was a home run hitter. While everyone remembers his major strikeout, he was really the genius/mad scientist yacht designer of the era.

 

Warrior was a truly remarkable design. Seeing it in the yard before it was raced inSo Cal, you could tell that it was something very special. But it seemed to suffer from misguidedmissile syndrome in its first season or so, and don’t recall it living up toits potential.

 

Resolute Salmon was an innovative design, but it was hardlynarrow. The hull form and deck layout moreresembled a J35, only with a dagger board (with just enough lead to keep theboard from floating) a high aspect ratio rudder, internal ballast and a 50 HPdiesel engine (also for internal ballast). It was very fast up wind in light or heavy air and incredibly out ofcontrol downwind in anything over 20 knots. The first races of the 1976 One Ton Worlds were windward/leeward, sailedin a mistral, with 35 knots at the weather mark and 5 knots at the leeward mark. Resolute Salmon was in the top 5 of the over 50boat fleet at the weather mark, at the middle of the fleet half way down therun (after many round ups, round downs, or ?, because you never knew where itwas going) and in the top five again at the weather mark. Had the regatta been sailed in 12-15 knots andthe French shared certain need to know RDF frequency information, ResoluteSalmon could have won the regatta with ease. As it was, it came down to the last race and a close finish withAmerica Jane III, with Resolute Salmon winning the regatta by a narrow margin.

 

Hat Trick was a narrow cutter. It was very fast in light air and did alrightup wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 18 knots. Hat Trick won a light air WhitneySanta Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk onthe way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race in big seas ,which still gives the original owner nightmares.

 

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Good to see a 24 year old wood boat still looking good,perhaps even better. The topsides are nolonger battleship grey (thankfully) and the rudder looks different (as inbetter, less high aspect ratio). Theday before the Worlds, welds on the original rudder tube broke seven miles to weatherof the Old Harbor and the boat was sailed back to the entrance.

 

 

 

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Brit Chance was a home run hitter. While everyone remembers his major strikeout, he was really the genius/mad scientist yacht designer of the era.

 

Warrior was a truly remarkable design. Seeing it in the yard before it was raced inSo Cal, you could tell that it was something very special. But it seemed to suffer from misguidedmissile syndrome in its first season or so, and don’t recall it living up toits potential.

 

Resolute Salmon was an innovative design, but it was hardlynarrow. The hull form and deck layout moreresembled a J35, only with a dagger board (with just enough lead to keep theboard from floating) a high aspect ratio rudder, internal ballast and a 50 HPdiesel engine (also for internal ballast). It was very fast up wind in light or heavy air and incredibly out ofcontrol downwind in anything over 20 knots. The first races of the 1976 One Ton Worlds were windward/leeward, sailedin a mistral, with 35 knots at the weather mark and 5 knots at the leeward mark. Resolute Salmon was in the top 5 of the over 50boat fleet at the weather mark, at the middle of the fleet half way down therun (after many round ups, round downs, or ?, because you never knew where itwas going) and in the top five again at the weather mark. Had the regatta been sailed in 12-15 knots andthe French shared certain need to know RDF frequency information, ResoluteSalmon could have won the regatta with ease. As it was, it came down to the last race and a close finish withAmerica Jane III, with Resolute Salmon winning the regatta by a narrow margin.

 

Hat Trick was a narrow cutter. It was very fast in light air and did alrightup wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 18 knots. Hat Trick won a light air WhitneySanta Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk onthe way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race in big seas ,which still gives the original owner nightmares.

 

 

Hi Timmy,

 

Here are some shots of a Chance centreboarder which quite pushed the boundaries and about which you might have few stories to tell !

 

 

PS: that boom does not look so low that one can't see the fleet under it ;)

(posted by one of those nasty and mercyless froggies)

post-6361-052634900 1306939264_thumb.jpg

post-6361-022091900 1306939291_thumb.jpg

post-6361-038847000 1306939429_thumb.jpg

post-6361-024610100 1306939468_thumb.jpg

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Timmy:

WARRIOR came to Seattle and was sailed by Bruce Hedrick and was unbeatable for quite a while. It had some structural issues like how to keep that highly swept keel on an I recall something about fasteners dissintegrating. Bt it certainly was fast when it lived here.

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Found an old Bay Bea photo, but in addition to being mathematicallychallenged (34 years is correct, but don’t feel that old) can’t seem to add animage as described in “Help”. In anyevent, seem to recall that the photo was taken at Admirals Cup the day Deaverwon his weight in champagne.

 

Don’t recall the year (but reasonably certain it was not 1977)but seem to recall that Bay Bea did poorly at the SORC (at least the yearDeaver was skipper) because the primary wench backed off suddenly going toweather in a chop holding the heavy #1 at its upper range. Deaver was leaning out checking the trim andthe double wench handle spun, fracturing his jaw and nearly killing him. He was air lifted off and the boat droppedout, which ended its SORC.

 

Recall that particular North Star, but don’t remember muchabout it. Were the photos taken in theSolent?

 

Is Warrior still around? Was the owner the same fellow who had Salty Tiger?

 

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Found an old Bay Bea photo, but in addition to being mathematicallychallenged (34 years is correct, but don’t feel that old) can’t seem to add animage as described in “Help”. In anyevent, seem to recall that the photo was taken at Admirals Cup the day Deaverwon his weight in champagne.

 

Don’t recall the year (but reasonably certain it was not 1977)but seem to recall that Bay Bea did poorly at the SORC (at least the yearDeaver was skipper) because the primary wench backed off suddenly going toweather in a chop holding the heavy #1 at its upper range. Deaver was leaning out checking the trim andthe double wench handle spun, fracturing his jaw and nearly killing him. He was air lifted off and the boat droppedout, which ended its SORC.

 

Recall that particular North Star, but don’t remember muchabout it. Were the photos taken in theSolent?[/size]

 

Is Warrior still around? Was the owner the same fellow who had Salty Tiger?

 

 

Northstar Pics 1&2 were in La Rochelle at the 3/4 ton , 3&4 at Kiel Week.

 

Thought I remembered you were on board with Eckart at La Rochelle.

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For a time in the early 70's, WARRIOR had "electronic" telltales on the jib luff. A green light would glow near the helm when trimmed correctly. A red light would flash when the jib luffed or stalled.

 

So in the Bermuda Race WARRIOR loses her mast in a Gulf Stream squall. The mast head sinks into the azure water. The owner, small of stature, is at the wheel and in a state of shock. The boat is wallowing DITW. In a gruff shout he commands "Get out of my way, I can't see the wind instruments..."

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Found an old Bay Bea photo, but in addition to being mathematicallychallenged (34 years is correct, but don't feel that old) can't seem to add animage as described in "Help". In anyevent, seem to recall that the photo was taken at Admirals Cup the day Deaverwon his weight in champagne.

 

Don't recall the year (but reasonably certain it was not 1977)but seem to recall that Bay Bea did poorly at the SORC (at least the yearDeaver was skipper) because the primary wench backed off suddenly going toweather in a chop holding the heavy #1 at its upper range. Deaver was leaning out checking the trim andthe double wench handle spun, fracturing his jaw and nearly killing him. He was air lifted off and the boat droppedout, which ended its SORC.

 

Recall that particular North Star, but don't remember muchabout it. Were the photos taken in theSolent?[/size]

 

Is Warrior still around? Was the owner the same fellow who had Salty Tiger?

 

 

Northstar Pics 1&2 were in La Rochelle at the 3/4 ton , 3&4 at Kiel Week.

 

Thought I remembered you were on board with Eckart at La Rochelle.

 

 

While I have met Eckart a few times (great guy) I have not had the pleasure of sailing with him.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

From a boatbuilder's perspective, Chance boats were challenging (expensive). The specified materials, the methods, the structural design, and the details where often atypical and hard to execute well. Whereas Peterson boats of the day had very simple structural engineering (yet held together) and were easy to build. Chance boats were at the other end of the spectrum with a very questionable benefit.

 

BayBea.jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...

Here is a (bad) photo of Bay Bea :)

 

 

The '77 BAY BEA was a 46 footer, cold moulded by PJ, with a daggerboard and deck stepped mast. Her stern certainly looked similar to the cited photo.

 

 

In the spring of '77, after a lack lustre SORC with teething problems, BAY BEA was selected over HIGH ROLER, skippered by DC, for the third slot on the US Admiral's Cup Team. Deaver was brought aboard to skipper BAY BEA in the '77 AC.

 

In the '77 AC, BAY BEA continued with inconsistent performances. IMP was highpoint US team boat, SCARAMOUCHE was second, and BAY BEA third. I believe a permanent fixed keel was added after BAY BEA's return to the US. A short career. That's probably her in the photo.

post-50842-096374500 1310060983_thumb.jpg

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In his autobiography, Olin Stephens differentiated between intuitive designers (like himself) and engineering designers (like pretty much all of the current names). It's really the story of progress in the profession. I've never been quite sure where Chance fell on the curve. He certainly did his best to use any engineering/scientific/experimental information and technique that came his way, and he was on several high-budget America's Cup design teams. I always has the impression that his boats were different because he followed the numbers/tank tests, etc further from the established norms than most designers were willing to do. However, the numbers let him down from time to time because the science was not fully developed.

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Brit Chance was a home run hitter. While everyone remembers his major strikeout, he was really the genius/mad scientist yacht designer of the era.

 

Warrior was a truly remarkable design. Seeing it in the yard before it was raced inSo Cal, you could tell that it was something very special. But it seemed to suffer from misguidedmissile syndrome in its first season or so, and don't recall it living up toits potential.

 

Resolute Salmon was an innovative design, but it was hardlynarrow. The hull form and deck layout moreresembled a J35, only with a dagger board (with just enough lead to keep theboard from floating) a high aspect ratio rudder, internal ballast and a 50 HPdiesel engine (also for internal ballast). It was very fast up wind in light or heavy air and incredibly out ofcontrol downwind in anything over 20 knots. The first races of the 1976 One Ton Worlds were windward/leeward, sailedin a mistral, with 35 knots at the weather mark and 5 knots at the leeward mark. Resolute Salmon was in the top 5 of the over 50boat fleet at the weather mark, at the middle of the fleet half way down therun (after many round ups, round downs, or ?, because you never knew where itwas going) and in the top five again at the weather mark. Had the regatta been sailed in 12-15 knots andthe French shared certain need to know RDF frequency information, ResoluteSalmon could have won the regatta with ease. As it was, it came down to the last race and a close finish withAmerica Jane III, with Resolute Salmon winning the regatta by a narrow margin.

 

Hat Trick was a narrow cutter. It was very fast in light air and did alrightup wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 18 knots. Hat Trick won a light air WhitneySanta Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk onthe way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race in big seas ,which still gives the original owner nightmares.

 

 

I will always remember Resolute Salmon coming into a downwind finish at either a Swiftsure or some such (atrophied memory cells) in Victoria. Bill Buchan at the helm. Incredible sailing against other boats, but you could see that it was only consumate skill keeping the boat upright. Resolute finished first. A great cheer. Concentration lost. Big time wipeout. This moment always defined Brit Chance boats for me.l

 

 

 

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The '77 BAY BEA was a 46 footer, cold moulded by PJ, with a daggerboard and deck stepped mast. Her stern certainly looked similar to the cited photo.

 

 

In the spring of '77, after a lack lustre SORC with teething problems, BAY BEA was selected over HIGH ROLER, skippered by DC, for the third slot on the US Admiral's Cup Team. Deaver was brought aboard to skipper BAY BEA in the '77 AC.

 

In the '77 AC, BAY BEA continued with inconsistent performances. IMP was highpoint US team boat, SCARAMOUCHE was second, and BAY BEA third. I believe a permanent fixed keel was added after BAY BEA's return to the US. A short career. That's probably her in the photo.

 

I don't believe a fixed keel was ever added.

A few years back, my wife & I had a cruising stopover in Urbanna Va, and spent some time poking around a boatyard. We spotted a boat that must have been BAY BEA. I am always interested in shallow-draft boats so I took a bunch of photos. The daggerboard was out of the trunk & laying beside her. Showing some wear, and the inlaid sunburst on the transom was looking kinda sad but she looked to be in sailing trim otherwise.

 

FB- Doug

 

FB- Doug

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Timmy:

WARRIOR came to Seattle and was sailed by Bruce Hedrick and was unbeatable for quite a while. It had some structural issues like how to keep that highly swept keel on an I recall something about fasteners dissintegrating. Bt it certainly was fast when it lived here.

 

I have no idea where Warrior is these days, but it can't be in great condition, unless someone fell in love and totally rebuilt it. I recall at the end of a Transpac Warrior finished with so much warp in her deck from too much time on starboard jibe that about an inch gap had opened up at the top of the bulkhead on the starboard side of the little doghouse. The deck, according to the crew, would visibly warp when a puff hit on a power reach.

 

Also interesting to note that Warrior at 50' would probably rate just a bit faster than a 1D-35 in PHRF these days.

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I once raced on a Chance designed boat called Stinger in Milwaukee. It was an Aluminum PJ built centerboarder. It was a double spreader rig, and the lower spreaders were shorter than the higher ones. I think it was a 3/4 tonner. the memories are a little hazy as I was 10 at the time!

 

Interesting boat.

 

Anyone got any pics?

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Timmy:

WARRIOR came to Seattle and was sailed by Bruce Hedrick and was unbeatable for quite a while. It had some structural issues like how to keep that highly swept keel on an I recall something about fasteners dissintegrating. Bt it certainly was fast when it lived here.

 

I have no idea where Warrior is these days, but it can't be in great condition, unless someone fell in love and totally rebuilt it. I recall at the end of a Transpac Warrior finished with so much warp in her deck from too much time on starboard jibe that about an inch gap had opened up at the top of the bulkhead on the starboard side of the little doghouse. The deck, according to the crew, would visibly warp when a puff hit on a power reach.

 

Also interesting to note that Warrior at 50' would probably rate just a bit faster than a 1D-35 in PHRF these days.

 

The last thing I heard about Warrior was that she had a small fire onboard while hauled out many (many many) years ago. Not sure if she was ever repaired, but the boat never showed up on the race course again.

 

 

JM

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Timmy:

WARRIOR came to Seattle and was sailed by Bruce Hedrick and was unbeatable for quite a while. It had some structural issues like how to keep that highly swept keel on an I recall something about fasteners dissintegrating. Bt it certainly was fast when it lived here.

 

I have no idea where Warrior is these days, but it can't be in great condition, unless someone fell in love and totally rebuilt it. I recall at the end of a Transpac Warrior finished with so much warp in her deck from too much time on starboard jibe that about an inch gap had opened up at the top of the bulkhead on the starboard side of the little doghouse. The deck, according to the crew, would visibly warp when a puff hit on a power reach.

 

Also interesting to note that Warrior at 50' would probably rate just a bit faster than a 1D-35 in PHRF these days.

 

The last thing I heard about Warrior was that she had a small fire onboard while hauled out many (many many) years ago. Not sure if she was ever repaired, but the boat never showed up on the race course again.

 

 

JM

I actually remember her showing up for at least one race after the fire, but she looked very rough then. Don't know where she went afterward or what happened to her.

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May be she was a prototype of the "Chance32" which got this new rig with low spreaders shorter than higher..

Attached photos

 

 

 

 

I once raced on a Chance designed boat called Stinger in Milwaukee. It was an Aluminum PJ built centerboarder. It was a double spreader rig, and the lower spreaders were shorter than the higher ones. I think it was a 3/4 tonner. the memories are a little hazy as I was 10 at the time!

 

Interesting boat.

 

Anyone got any pics?

post-50842-068839600 1310138230_thumb.jpg

post-50842-066325400 1310138241_thumb.jpg

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Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

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  • 1 year later...

 

Swing Keel Ketch Chance 44 Jemel

"You get the crew she will do 33 Knots down wind surfing " and rolling till she takes her mast out.{ At least TWICE!)

 

attachicon.gifjemel.JPG

 

Dreyfus and Seemann

built their first boat themselves. In

JEMEL, a Brit Chance designed 44-foot ketch

with a swing keel, they took on quite a

challenging project. Figure 1 shows the

complexity of this boat's deck layout.

 

I did the SORC in '74 on JEMEL a Chance 44 Ketch. With center steering, swing keel that could be brought into a trunk in side the cabin. The trunk had a adjustable slot sealing flaps. The mizzen mast had retractable spreaders to improve the sheeting on the stay sails. The Mizzen mast had no for-stay. There was a Aluminum tube straight forward off the Mizzen mast top to the main mast back-stay to replace the mizzen for stay. We took her mast out in a dark night broach , "NO WINGED JIBS_ CHUTES ONLY" watch in the Windward Passage off Cuba In the First Biannual Nassau to Kingston, Jamaica Yacht Race that year.

Jemel was a high tech, rod rigging , kevlar sails rocket ship. In the sea bright cup ,off New Jersey coast , we were dismasted running downwind at over twenty knots with five sails aloft. We broached after navigator headed directly downwind, It was incredible , going 180 degrees broaches at that speed , The spinnaker pole pressure, from pole dragging into twenty knot water while broaching to port , pushed the mast in causing failure of structure. Rod rigging never failed , Mast broke in three places,came down , and we were cutting sails and rigging off. Nobody hurt. The next design change ,was to remove the mizzen mast , which caused the rating to increase it's handicap. Fun and nuts

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I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading in a mag as a teen that the boat had a bone in its tail instead of its teeth. Apparently there was quite a bit of turbulence spitting out the back.

I have a randon book on the mariner campaign that shows lots of photos of the strange 2 tiered wake that she put off. I think it was called 'The Grand Gesture", just a few months after it was built it was majorly refitted. If I remember correctly they make chance sound a little aloof and pompous.

Post some pics of that wake- I imagine it is unique looking! Serge

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  • 2 months later...

Just ordered book on ebay mentioned here, A Grand Gesture. Obviously not a lot of demand given its $3.50 sale price. It will cost me more to ship it here, but I am a Mariner fan, so gotta have it. Will post wake pics once I receive....

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Found an old Bay Bea photo, but in addition to being mathematicallychallenged (34 years is correct, but dont feel that old) cant seem to add animage as described in Help. In anyevent, seem to recall that the photo was taken at Admirals Cup the day Deaverwon his weight in champagne.

 

Dont recall the year (but reasonably certain it was not 1977)but seem to recall that Bay Bea did poorly at the SORC (at least the yearDeaver was skipper) because the primary wench backed off suddenly going toweather in a chop holding the heavy #1 at its upper range. Deaver was leaning out checking the trim andthe double wench handle spun, fracturing his jaw and nearly killing him. He was air lifted off and the boat droppedout, which ended its SORC.

 

Recall that particular North Star, but dont remember muchabout it. Were the photos taken in theSolent?

 

Is Warrior still around? Was the owner the same fellow who had Salty Tiger?

 

Warrior in Brisbane in Oz.

Arrived about 2 years ago.

Was cruising and skipper passed away and girl friend has it now I believe.

Just been repainted and re rigged.

The lady lives aboard

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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1915&dat=19810706&id=iBMiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2HUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3901,2114784

 

Story about one of Chance's boats, Satan's Mercy. Was an awesome looking 58 foot cold molded ULDB. Dagger board with bulb and hydraulic lift, boat only displaced 19,000 lbs and had an 18" draft with the foils up. Unofrtunately the rig came down in the gulfstream and punched a hole in the boat near the waterline and she was lost. All crew were rescued

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  • 1 month later...

Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

This is Equation. Designed by Britton for Jack Potter and built by Derecktor in Memareneck NY. It had a dagger-board-shaped keel that lifted hydraulically like a centerboard. The mizzen cocked and leeward spreader articulated for upwind work. I don't think that did much good, but look out when you cracked sheets: a rocket ship.

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Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

This is Equation. Designed by Britton for Jack Potter and built by Derecktor in Memareneck NY. It had a dagger-board-shaped keel that lifted hydraulically like a centerboard. The mizzen cocked and leeward spreader articulated for upwind work. I don't think that did much good, but look out when you cracked sheets: a rocket ship.

do tell us more about the mizzen, it looks wicked fast in this photo

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Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

This is Equation. Designed by Britton for Jack Potter and built by Derecktor in Memareneck NY. It had a dagger-board-shaped keel that lifted hydraulically like a centerboard. The mizzen cocked and leeward spreader articulated for upwind work. I don't think that did much good, but look out when you cracked sheets: a rocket ship.

do tell us more about the mizzen, it looks wicked fast in this photo

 

Faster than the rest of the boat...... :D

 

Alden, Equation is 18' longer than Warrior and has 3 cockpits, the helm is in the middle cockpit, forward of the bubble house. And Equations mythical mizzen sprouted right out of the center of that bubble house.......

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Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

This is Equation. Designed by Britton for Jack Potter and built by Derecktor in Memareneck NY. It had a dagger-board-shaped keel that lifted hydraulically like a centerboard. The mizzen cocked and leeward spreader articulated for upwind work. I don't think that did much good, but look out when you cracked sheets: a rocket ship.

do tell us more about the mizzen, it looks wicked fast in this photo

 

 

That is NOT Equation

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If Equation was painted red, I might have run across it about 15 years ago in Florida.

There was a guy who wanted "an unusual", large sailboat sort of on the cheap. I did

a search and found a Chance 60 footer, red, the wheel was way forward. I only

remember 2 cockpits and no bubble house. It had a mizzen. I remember it being

in pretty good shape, with a very traditional interior, which seemed strange given

the odd deck layout.

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Here's Al Cassel's Warrior, at the start of Transpac 73, which she won Class A in 11-22-15-40 (elapsed) and finished 9th overall...she rated 47.94 IOR

 

Warriorcover.jpg

This is Equation. Designed by Britton for Jack Potter and built by Derecktor in Memareneck NY. It had a dagger-board-shaped keel that lifted hydraulically like a centerboard. The mizzen cocked and leeward spreader articulated for upwind work. I don't think that did much good, but look out when you cracked sheets: a rocket ship.

do tell us more about the mizzen, it looks wicked fast in this photo

 

That is NOT Equation

 

But isn't that Lighting off Warrior's stern.

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where is Britt these days? Still in business? He had some pretty interesting boats as well as some big failures-people love to tell that old story about Mariner, but there were some pretty interesting and successful designs as well-ayone got any photos or good info or are we going to have to hear everyone's version of Turner's "geez Britt, even a turd is tapered"...?

unfortunately like many of the great yacht designers he has joined the others in it big sailboat in the sky. Going far to young. He was 70 and passed from a complication from a stroke.
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The alterations to Intrepid were drastic and involved a rebuilding in San Diego. The most significant changes where in the keel and rudder areas to minimize wetted surface. She won the 1971 America's Cup, but not in my views from modification to the shape. Since then, she has been restored to her original configuration. I touch on my Blog about my relation to Brit.

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Just ordered book on ebay mentioned here, A Grand Gesture. Obviously not a lot of demand given its $3.50 sale price. It will cost me more to ship it here, but I am a Mariner fan, so gotta have it. Will post wake pics once I receive....

I have a copy; when it was new from the book store. I think I've got it in my library, dust jacket and all!

 

Yup, there was no love lost between Turner and Chance; not just the turd quote. There's picture in the book of one of those internal light portable stands/signs saying: "All we are saying is give Britt a chance" from the song "give peace a chance". Pretty funny at the time - hell, it's funny now.

 

Bob might remember one of Bill Buchan's "Sachem" was a 34' Chance design. A cenerboarder or daggerboarder too. Pretty fast back in the day.

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Just ordered book on ebay mentioned here, A Grand Gesture. Obviously not a lot of demand given its $3.50 sale price. It will cost me more to ship it here, but I am a Mariner fan, so gotta have it. Will post wake pics once I receive....

I have a copy; when it was new from the book store. I think I've got it in my library, dust jacket and all!

 

Yup, there was no love lost between Turner and Chance; not just the turd quote. There's picture in the book of one of those internal light portable stands/signs saying: "All we are saying is give Britt a chance" from the song "give peace a chance". Pretty funny at the time - hell, it's funny now.

 

Bob might remember one of Bill Buchan's "Sachem" was a 34' Chance design. A cenerboarder or daggerboarder too. Pretty fast back in the day.

 

I had a copy of the book as well until someone "borrowed" it. Exellent read. Not technical, more about the personalities involved in the Mariner syndicate and the author had some very interesting conversations with Ted Turner and sharing some bud with some hippies in a camper van who were in Newport for the America's Cup among other stories.

 

I'll have to get another copy. It's been over 20 years since I had the book and the old brain doesn't function like it did, but I seem to recall the only time Vaughn mentions "even a turd is tapered" is in relation to watching the crew wetsanding the hull one afternoon and one of the crew (Legare Van Ness or some name like that) stands back to observe his work and then utters the line. I know Turner said it, but I got the impression it was one of the crew that first uttered it.

 

Sachem was fast. Weren't they second to Pendragon at the '78 3/4 Ton Worlds?

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Of course I remember SACHEM. It was a pretty conventional looking boat for a Chance design but it was fast and good looking. Of course it didn't hurt to have Bill Buxchan sailing it.

I wonder where SACHEM is now?

Dunno Bob. And yes, it was conventional looking but I think it had that type of foil. I think IOR then all but banned their use; or the rating hit the roof. Bill can sail a shoe box really and win. Didn't hurt that a toe headed 15 year old with him by the name of McKee too. We chuckled about that at the last Straits race when I was 19 or 20.

 

As 12 Meter pointed out Sachem was 2nd OA against Pendragon but not by much. Half a point only.Those were the days a world's took 10 days and a lot of racing. I think that was the start of the Pendragon legacy. Pretty radical in the day compared to the normal Mull's, G&S's etc that were prevalent at the time. North and Davidson were both on the boat.

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So I have to tell a pretty funny Mariner story. No Britt involved, but funny none the less.



I'm not sure if Mariner was built at Derecktor's in Mamaroneck or not but a Friday afternoon in the spring of 1974 it was sitting in the water there, I think just launched, no mast, just the hull. A friend of mine was doing the Block Island Race that weekend and Derecktor's was popping a bunch of pretty large boats in the water to do the race. The crane (that huge thing that overpowered the local skyline) was picking up boats and then dropping them in as easy as you can imagine. The one issue was that a huge steel fishing boat (which I assume Derecktor had built) was on the dock where the boats were going in, the crane just picked them up and hoisted them over the fishing trawler, dropping them on the other side. In this set up, the crane operator couldn't actually see the hook