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Geez, I go sailing in the Bay to Bay for a few days and more expectations are placed on my centre hull aerobatics, hull weight....

 

The weekend for me was a great way to focus on what is important in these boats. 20 nominated with most being Farrier or copies with the same folding system and similar comforts allowing us to spend a few great nights on our boats racing and cruising while having a laugh at the expense and trouble that other crews had to go to with support crews on houseboats, launches, and tents on the beach secured against dingoes lol.

 

But just referring to a few comments here, I can put my hand up and say that for crew delight and photo boats I have popped the centre hull on my F-24, F-27, and a standard Sprint we raced a fair bit as well. Given the right conditions you can build up speed, steer in sine waves, and hold them up there as the sensible guys go past a little more level. Fun, yes! Safe, no. Fast, no. I always found the best judge of how hard to push for speed was the water level on the leeward float and on the 24 and Sprint that was up splashing on the beams , definitely not for the faint-hearted. The 24 antics were helped by a big GM mainsail that had a 2 metre head batten. These boats felt at their fastest IMO in flat water when you could hear that lovely planing slap under the main hull where a metre or two of bilge was being pushed up still by fast moving water. Above that and the rudder and daggerboard lost effectiveness although the dagger rudder I made for the F-27 added a turbo to the whole game.

 

Peter

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F-22 near the finish, 2019 Doublehanded Farallones race   IMG_5460_DxO 

You do mean Corsair, correct? They own the market much more so than Farrier Marine does and they actually build and deliver boats as the Lighthouse pointed out.

I’ve seen that on the start line!!!!!!!!

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Yeah nice poser shot, but that same boat hit 21.2 knots for the new record as the renamed Hot Option, and it was down flat and fast with smoke coming off the bows. I certainly wouldn't use that shot in any advertising trying to encourage 2up husband and wife teams to go sailing on a tri.

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Found some illustrative pix, this was fastpost-10329-0-10899500-1399253030_thumb.jpg

This was posing for the camera and slowpost-10329-0-80502300-1399253060_thumb.jpg

This was a way to hide from the camera. 66 sq m on an F24, and no idea who was below us. Just silly. post-10329-0-17663100-1399255270_thumb.jpg

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But just referring to a few comments here, I can put my hand up and say that for crew delight and photo boats I have popped the centre hull on my F-24, F-27, and a standard Sprint we raced a fair bit as well.

Well done managing that on a sprint. I have never been able to come near, pushed the lee float a long way under and gone very slow trying. Much faster to depower and keep the woefully inadequate (volume wise) float above the surface. However with appropriate volume floats . . . . . . . . . . .

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Geez, I go sailing in the Bay to Bay for a few days and more expectations are placed on my centre hull aerobatics, hull weight....

 

The weekend for me was a great way to focus on what is important in these boats. 20 nominated with most being Farrier or copies with the same folding system and similar comforts allowing us to spend a few great nights on our boats racing and cruising while having a laugh at the expense and trouble that other crews had to go to with support crews on houseboats, launches, and tents on the beach secured against dingoes lol.

 

But just referring to a few comments here, I can put my hand up and say that for crew delight and photo boats I have popped the centre hull on my F-24, F-27, and a standard Sprint we raced a fair bit as well. Given the right conditions you can build up speed, steer in sine waves, and hold them up there as the sensible guys go past a little more level. Fun, yes! Safe, no. Fast, no. I always found the best judge of how hard to push for speed was the water level on the leeward float and on the 24 and Sprint that was up splashing on the beams , definitely not for the faint-hearted. The 24 antics were helped by a big GM mainsail that had a 2 metre head batten. These boats felt at their fastest IMO in flat water when you could hear that lovely planing slap under the main hull where a metre or two of bilge was being pushed up still by fast moving water. Above that and the rudder and daggerboard lost effectiveness although the dagger rudder I made for the F-27 added a turbo to the whole game.

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter

 

You remind me of a friend years ago who tried to convince everyone he knew to drive a VW, they're just so good I can't understand why everyone doesn't drive one.... anyway, there are alternatives to camping on your boat. When Mad Max arrived at the finish line of this years Bay to Bay race, the first order of business was to set the crab pots then get into a hot shower and relax. Friends came over to visit and we had a very pleasant time waiting for the other boats to finish. We had a great weekend, it was very enjoyable for all the family members that came along to support their partners and we plan to do exactly the same thing next year and along the way, really enjoy some fast sailing as per the attached race results.

 

regards

 

Tony Considine

Provisional-Times.pdf

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Hi Tony,

 

Welcome back to the F-22 site! You should start one of your own?

You and the Mad Max team are at the top of the list for a test sail next week when my new boat arrives.

 

I emailed personal congratulations to you and George and Ben at 1.14 pm yesterday because it was a superb effort by the boys, fantastic for all of us that a multihull breaks the course record. My comments to the other VW owners (a very successful car in every way and a silly metaphor to choose) were reflecting many of our conversations that we were proud to be going so fast in our comfortable boats on such a great weekend. The Dash 750 Hot Option was one of the smallest boats in the race, slept 3 comfortably, but still hit a PB of 21.2 knots which you must agree is serious bang for your buck.

 

If I am therefore a VW dealer, I am really looking forward to these next years, because all of the millions who loved the Beetle and the Kombi have been enjoying crewing on my Tiguan and Touareg and are lining up to go sailing on the next generation of the most successful vehicle in the world.

 

My final comment is that even the Ostac Tramp owner finishing much later in the race drove off from the Urangan car park shaking his head as he observed the race record breakers still trying to get the elegant carbon meccano set into towing mode. Looked a bit like a Jaguar X-type, fast but...

Are they home yet?

 

Hope I get invited out to the mother ship next year.

 

 

Peter

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Geez, I go sailing in the Bay to Bay for a few days and more expectations are placed on my centre hull aerobatics, hull weight....

 

The weekend for me was a great way to focus on what is important in these boats. 20 nominated with most being Farrier or copies with the same folding system and similar comforts allowing us to spend a few great nights on our boats racing and cruising while having a laugh at the expense and trouble that other crews had to go to with support crews on houseboats, launches, and tents on the beach secured against dingoes lol.

 

But just referring to a few comments here, I can put my hand up and say that for crew delight and photo boats I have popped the centre hull on my F-24, F-27, and a standard Sprint we raced a fair bit as well. Given the right conditions you can build up speed, steer in sine waves, and hold them up there as the sensible guys go past a little more level. Fun, yes! Safe, no. Fast, no. I always found the best judge of how hard to push for speed was the water level on the leeward float and on the 24 and Sprint that was up splashing on the beams , definitely not for the faint-hearted. The 24 antics were helped by a big GM mainsail that had a 2 metre head batten. These boats felt at their fastest IMO in flat water when you could hear that lovely planing slap under the main hull where a metre or two of bilge was being pushed up still by fast moving water. Above that and the rudder and daggerboard lost effectiveness although the dagger rudder I made for the F-27 added a turbo to the whole game.

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter

 

You remind me of a friend years ago who tried to convince everyone he knew to drive a VW, they're just so good I can't understand why everyone doesn't drive one.... anyway, there are alternatives to camping on your boat. When Mad Max arrived at the finish line of this years Bay to Bay race, the first order of business was to set the crab pots then get into a hot shower and relax. Friends came over to visit and we had a very pleasant time waiting for the other boats to finish. We had a great weekend, it was very enjoyable for all the family members that came along to support their partners and we plan to do exactly the same thing next year and along the way, really enjoy some fast sailing as per the attached race results.

 

regards

 

Tony Considine

This whole thread is a bit of a shill Tony. That is its purpose and its working well.

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Yeah nice poser shot, but that same boat hit 21.2 knots for the new record as the renamed Hot Option, and it was down flat and fast with smoke coming off the bows. I certainly wouldn't use that shot in any advertising trying to encourage 2up husband and wife teams to go sailing on a tri.

You do know that is a Husband and Wife sailing that one? Excellent sailors the pair of them, particularly Linda.

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But just referring to a few comments here, I can put my hand up and say that for crew delight and photo boats I have popped the centre hull on my F-24, F-27, and a standard Sprint we raced a fair bit as well.

Well done managing that on a sprint. I have never been able to come near, pushed the lee float a long way under and gone very slow trying. Much faster to depower and keep the woefully inadequate (volume wise) float above the surface. However with appropriate volume floats . . . . . . . . . . .

Not too big a problem flying the center hull on an F-27 as per:

 

post-18231-0-50215200-1399380070_thumb.jpg

 

and this is on a boat with relatively small floats, being a 1984 design. The prototype had originally been fitted with curved living foils, which meant floats did not have to be big. However, once it was decided to not use the foils (too expensive) the production version was fitted with bigger floats, but not much space had been left for them, so not as big as on later designs.

 

Now this 'flying the hull' aspect could be improved by increasing overall beam and using even bigger floats, but more beam means higher stresses, which requires stronger beams, or more weight/expense along with more windage from the longer beams, so windward and light air performance would drop off. Thus all round performance starts to suffer, while cost and weight goes up. The longer beams will also extend up higher, which means more windage and higher fuel consumption on the trailer. Or one could lower the floats, to reduce excessive height, but this would mean boat cannot be launched folded and becomes very hard to trailer.

 

Bigger floats are more feasible, as used on later designs, but too big means less room inside, and the boat is not as good for cruising. Most do not need the sort of performance that comes from extreme beam and minimal accommodation, and for any production boat it is all about having the 'balance' right, to where the boat is commercially viable.

 

Boat as pictured will be starting to slow down, and speed would be improved by sailing a little flatter, with main hull just above the water, or just skimming along the top. Rudder control when as high as shown can always be an issue with a single rudder, but if boat is well balanced with a near neutral helm, then it will continue to track straight for the brief periods main hull is well out of the water. However, few will ever sail as hard as this, and in reality it is very difficult to fly the F-27 center hull with it's relatively small rig, and it is not an intended feature. Thus rudder control is not an issue for 90% of owners who do not want to sail like this.

 

Note also the roller reefed mainsail in the above photo, neat, an excellent shape, very easy and quick to do, and with no lazy jacks flapping around in the breeze.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Yeah nice poser shot, but that same boat hit 21.2 knots for the new record as the renamed Hot Option, and it was down flat and fast with smoke coming off the bows. I certainly wouldn't use that shot in any advertising trying to encourage 2up husband and wife teams to go sailing on a tri.

You do know that is a Husband and Wife sailing that one? Excellent sailors the pair of them, particularly Linda.

All too well, David, Linda and Daughter beat us easily in the last Manly nationals.

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Not too big a problem flying the center hull on an F-27 as per:

 

attachicon.gifF-27Flyingmainhull.jpg

 

Great Photo! Illustrates exactly my point. Starting to slow down? with that lee float fully submerged it started to slow down long ago. It would be much faster with the float deck and crossbeams above the water. but imagine if it had appropriate volume floats, how much faster would it be with no other changes, same rig, same weight.

 

 

and this is on a boat with relatively small floats, being a 1984 design. The prototype had originally been fitted with curved living foils, which meant floats did not have to be big. However, once it was decided to not use the foils (too expensive) the production version was fitted with bigger floats, but not much space had been left for them, so not as big as on later designs.

 

Now this 'flying the hull' aspect could be improved by increasing overall beam and using even bigger floats, but more beam means higher stresses, which requires stronger beams, or more weight/expense along with more windage from the longer beams, so windward and light air performance would drop off. Thus all round performance starts to suffer, while cost and weight goes up. The longer beams will also extend up higher, which means more windage and higher fuel consumption on the trailer. Or one could lower the floats, to reduce excessive height, but this would mean boat cannot be launched folded and becomes very hard to trailer.

 

Increasing overall beam? Now there's a straw man for you.

Trend is to less overall beam. Seacart 30 is only 20' wide. Bigger floats and reduced beam are what enhances effective centre hull flying.

The appropriate volume floats on the production F-22 with it's appropriate overall beam and light weight will mean that when raced enthusiastically it will spend most of its time with the centre hull just clear of the water.

Now lets see what Peter Hackett gets up to. I don't think he will be deliberately slowing the boat down while racing.

 

Bigger floats are more feasible, as used on later designs, but too big means less room inside, and the boat is not as good for cruising. Most do not need the sort of performance that comes from extreme beam and minimal accommodation, and for any production boat it is all about having the 'balance' right, to where the boat is commercially viable.

 

Boat as pictured will be starting to slow down, and speed would be improved by sailing a little flatter, with main hull just above the water, or just skimming along the top. Rudder control when as high as shown can always be an issue with a single rudder, but if boat is well balanced with a near neutral helm, then it will continue to track straight for the brief periods main hull is well out of the water. However, few will ever sail as hard as this, and in reality it is very difficult to fly the F-27 center hull with it's relatively small rig, and it is not an intended feature. Thus rudder control is not an issue for 90% of owners who do not want to sail like this.

 

I think you have probably got the floats 'just right' on the production F-22, just from looking at the photo's. Just enough volume to effectively fly the centre hull without compromising main hull interior space or trailability.

 

Note also the roller reefed mainsail in the above photo, neat, an excellent shape, very easy and quick to do, and with no lazy jacks flapping around in the breeze.

 

Should be even better with the new boomless setup, I assume you roll up around the bottom batten.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

 

Of course they work - you make sure of that by proving it yourself rather than relying on others to do your R&D.

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Hi Peter

 

You remind me of a friend years ago who tried to convince everyone he knew to drive a VW, they're just so good I can't understand why everyone doesn't drive one.... anyway, there are alternatives to camping on your boat. When Mad Max arrived at the finish line of this years Bay to Bay race, the first order of business was to set the crab pots then get into a hot shower and relax. Friends came over to visit and we had a very pleasant time waiting for the other boats to finish. We had a great weekend, it was very enjoyable for all the family members that came along to support their partners and we plan to do exactly the same thing next year and along the way, really enjoy some fast sailing as per the attached race results.

 

regards

 

Tony Considine

Thanks Tony for the results and congrat's again on Mad Max's performance. Well done. We can camp on our catamarans if we want to, or we can opt for more comfort. VW's are great but they are not for everyone. Ian Farrier has upgraded to a Porsche. Meanwhile we are racing Lotus's? and we put up with the compromises that that brings. I have a sprint which is easily trailable. I also have a demountable cat and accept that it is not as easily trailable. I am happy to put up with the extra work to trail the cat for the sheer joy of sailing it. Others may get similar joy from racing their VW or Porsche. I like the idea of a hot shower and meal that someone else has cooked at the end of a race, though I did always enjoy 'living aboard' XL2.

 

I am expecting great things from Ian's new Porsche.

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Hi Peter

 

You remind me of a friend years ago who tried to convince everyone he knew to drive a VW, they're just so good I can't understand why everyone doesn't drive one.... anyway, there are alternatives to camping on your boat. When Mad Max arrived at the finish line of this years Bay to Bay race, the first order of business was to set the crab pots then get into a hot shower and relax. Friends came over to visit and we had a very pleasant time waiting for the other boats to finish. We had a great weekend, it was very enjoyable for all the family members that came along to support their partners and we plan to do exactly the same thing next year and along the way, really enjoy some fast sailing as per the attached race results.

 

regards

 

Tony Considine

Thanks Tony for the results and congrat's again on Mad Max's performance. Well done. We can camp on our catamarans if we want to, or we can opt for more comfort. VW's are great but they are not for everyone. Ian Farrier has upgraded to a Porsche. Meanwhile we are racing Lotus's? and we put up with the compromises that that brings. I have a sprint which is easily trailable. I also have a demountable cat and accept that it is not as easily trailable. I am happy to put up with the extra work to trail the cat for the sheer joy of sailing it. Others may get similar joy from racing their VW or Porsche. I like the idea of a hot shower and meal that someone else has cooked at the end of a race, though I did always enjoy 'living aboard' XL2.

 

I am expecting great things from Ian's new Porsche.

Not a Porsche - more like a BMW - has room and comfort inside with 5 seats, plus can sometimes be as fast as a Porsche :-)

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

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Not sure about these analogies to German cars - I have an old Audi which is comfortable, powerful and fun to drive but it guzzles the fuel, bits are starting to fall off and I would have to get second mortgage to take it anywhere near a mechanic. Does that mean it's like sailing in a Maritimo?

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Good multihulls are like pumpkin and leek soup, plenty of body and good for old fellas like me, but monohulls are like minestrone, they go all over the place and only make you hungry for something else.

 

Sorry eric, being a landlubber for too long is not good for me.

 

Peter ;)

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Not a Porsche - more like a BMW - has room and comfort inside with 5 seats, plus can sometimes be as fast as a Porsche :-)

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work...

At least an 'M' type BMW. Comfortable family car but devastating when raced. And Porsche do have balance problems with all that weight in one end. BMW has close to 50/50 weight dist'.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just a quick summary of the weekend assemble and launch fun.

 

A great bunch of mates helped me extract a beautiful and matched set of boat-bits from the container at Allyacht Spars on Friday night. The job was not easy due to fading light, showers, and our inability to use the factory trailer due to some permit issues and an axle still stuck in Sydney. The best minds and bodies in Brisbane helped assemble the boat onto a modified F24 trailer by about 7.30 pm and the boat made it over to my home later that night. Saturday was a bit easier in daylight with many rigging and net jobs needed before we had our first sail today. And that was wonderful.

 

My daughter joined me for a sail across the bay with only working sails on board and the intention to stretch the new shrouds in carefully. Near Otter Rock a fresh squall did just that and more, so we dropped the jib to settle the rig and see how she would sail bare-headed. The balance was quite surprising, and when the wind dropped we sailed quite high with main pulled in firm and there was no risk of going in irons. Upwind and close reaching the typical F22 feel of plan-built boats was apparent, pointing very high when needed, and footing off with a burst of speed for a bit of fun. The ride was dry and the comfort level was high. The boomless rig is certainly different to get used to, and will require more fine-tuning and time on the water, but the open feeling in the cockpit as a result of that and other evolutions in this boat makes it all a worthwhile exercise. The furling mainsail went up pretty well with some adjustment of the prefeeder needed there, and dropping the main in the creek was just a breeze with the sail wound firmly around the thick bottom batten first time around.

 

Now the fun begins as we prepare for some serious cruising interspersed with the QCYC winter series in a couple of weeks. A big fleet of multihulls is again promised for this year’s event.

 

Peterpost-10329-0-47328000-1400410179_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-38034900-1400410194_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-31193700-1400410209_thumb.jpeg

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Peter,

 

Congrats on the boat.

 

What is the tiller arrangement? If under the traveler, the sweep seems to be constrained by the cockpit seat which suggests a really wide turning circle or am I missing something? Wider sweep and quicker turning if its higher and behind the traveler but then the extension to drive from the float has to be tacked behind the mainsheet (like a beach cat), right? Am I seeing it correctly? Which is it if so?

 

After you race it a bit report back on how you like or dislike the boomless main. Very curious.

 

Wess

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After you race it a bit report back on how you like or dislike the boomless main. Very curious.

 

F-25C Boomless main in action......

 

 

When set up properly, it works amazingly well!!! The only downside is when dropping the sail at the end of the day, which I believe Ian has resolved on the production F-22.

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH

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I have to admit the whole tiller , sheeting, boom thingy is very different but starting with the positives, everybody climbing on the boat unfolded made comment that the big flat surfaces were awesome like sitting on an aircraft carrier top deck (relatively speaking!).

 

The tiller was fine with turning arc sailing although I only had a short extension tied on for the day. For motoring the intention is you can remove with pushpin if needed the alloy tiller and steer with the short white glass stump. I didn,t need to, enjoying the luxury of no rudder blade when launching and steering with the very conveniently located outboard tiller. I had been missing that with my F27.

 

To be resolved now is angles of cleats at bottom of mainsheet, might even experiment with off the "boomthing" sheeting like skiffs.

Mainsail tack and cunningham with the cranking mechanism works reasonably well but is a work in progress with some combination of loops, shackles, smoke and mirrors ready for the next trials.

 

The black stripe is to do with the way the clever mouldings have been joined in this boat. Some have suggested we put some blue superyacht foot lighting down there.....

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Nice video. On my Kendrick Tri, similar to a C31, I had tiller extensions each side, the Lazy one hung on a shockcord line off a stay, made tacking easier in that I didn't have to move the extension with me from side to side. Not sure if that is feasible on your particular boat

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You are right there, twins are the way to go if you are the skipper definitely. Caused some grief on the 27 for crew who always get in the way! Hoping the shockcord line works to the backstay adjusters on this boat. I do still have nightmares about the time with a masthead kite up, the leeward kitesheet did an automatic clove hitch around the leeward teller extension as I was trying to gybe away from a starboard tack bigger boat....

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You are right there, twins are the way to go if you are the skipper definitely. Caused some grief on the 27 for crew who always get in the way! Hoping the shockcord line works to the backstay adjusters on this boat. I do still have nightmares about the time with a masthead kite up, the leeward kitesheet did an automatic clove hitch around the leeward teller extension as I was trying to gybe away from a starboard tack bigger boat....

I see you get your lines from the same supplier as me, the special ones that are able to tie knots in themselves whilst sitting there doing nothing. Not suggesting that it (two extensions) works absolutely all the time, but overall I found it a great help. You might also consider whether an oversize tube holder on the beam might work, just before I sold Kite (the Kendrick) I was experimenting with that and I think it would have worked well and avoided the self tying sheet issue. But, each boat will have to have its own thought process.

 

Congratulations on the new boat. Looks great, and I am sure it will perform great as well, look forward to seeing you sail past me on the bay.

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Peter,

 

Congrats on the boat.

 

What is the tiller arrangement? If under the traveler, the sweep seems to be constrained by the cockpit seat which suggests a really wide turning circle or am I missing something? Wider sweep and quicker turning if its higher and behind the traveler but then the extension to drive from the float has to be tacked behind the mainsheet (like a beach cat), right? Am I seeing it correctly? Which is it if so?

 

After you race it a bit report back on how you like or dislike the boomless main. Very curious.

 

Wess

 

Wess, the tiller throw is constrained by the cockpit seat. The rudder angle is still probably good enough to spin the boat during starts etc. I'm dealing with a similar issue on my F-25C where I have a similar setup am may be more constrained than the F-22 setup. Most transom rudders on F-25C use push rod linkages to allow a full range of steering but mine does not. I have just taken delivery of a F-22R rudder and cassette and was working on fit up issues yesterday. I would prefer to keep the feel of the tiller on the rudder instead of linkages.

post-29691-0-89742100-1400508173_thumb.jpg

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Peter,

 

Congrats on the boat.

 

What is the tiller arrangement? If under the traveler, the sweep seems to be constrained by the cockpit seat which suggests a really wide turning circle or am I missing something? Wider sweep and quicker turning if its higher and behind the traveler but then the extension to drive from the float has to be tacked behind the mainsheet (like a beach cat), right? Am I seeing it correctly? Which is it if so?

 

After you race it a bit report back on how you like or dislike the boomless main. Very curious.

 

 

 

 

Wess

Wess, the tiller throw is constrained by the cockpit seat. The rudder angle is still probably good enough to spin the boat during starts etc. I'm dealing with a similar issue on my F-25C where I have a similar setup am may be more constrained than the F-22 setup. Most transom rudders on F-25C use push rod linkages to allow a full range of steering but mine does not. I have just taken delivery of a F-22R rudder and cassette and was working on fit up issues yesterday. I would prefer to keep the feel of the tiller on the rudder instead of linkages.

Hi Guys

When I moved the rudder aft on my F9AR Redshift, I switched to the linkage system and sailed it like that for years. Loved it. Absolutely no loss of feel. The linkage system allows for the adjustment of throw by changing the lengths of the levers . I did that by drilling multiple holes in the levers and playing with it. I have just bought Glynn Thomas's F85SR and the first mod will be to install the linkage system. It's a pain in the ass the way it is now with the direct tiller so far aft. Tiller forward,weight forward.

Wayne

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Wayne,

 

This may be a topic for another thread, but where to you get the bits to build your linkage system?

 

Eric

Eric

I make all my own bits. Off the shelf raw materials. You can PM me if you like.

Wayne

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Peter,

 

Congrats on the boat.

 

What is the tiller arrangement? If under the traveler, the sweep seems to be constrained by the cockpit seat which suggests a really wide turning circle or am I missing something? Wider sweep and quicker turning if its higher and behind the traveler but then the extension to drive from the float has to be tacked behind the mainsheet (like a beach cat), right? Am I seeing it correctly? Which is it if so?

 

Wess

 

Tiller angle is all a matter of balance - one can have more tiller angle by having cockpit seats further apart, but then you cannot reach other side with feet to brace yourself when needed. An underslung rudder as on the original F-25C will have more tiller sweep, but they had other problems so proved to be a mistake, and I eventually went back to transom mounted rudders. These were much further back, with fewer problems, but with less sweep. The underslung rudder max. sweep was 40° the transom hung only around 16°, which is borderline. So hence remote steering became an option for both F-25C and F-82 with transom rudders:

 

post-18231-0-25395400-1400528079_thumb.jpg

A rudder remote system as on Randy Smyth's F-25C

 

However, I did not want such a complication on the F-22, and the standard boomless main tiller has a sweep of 25° which is more than enough for most purposes. Tacks on a dime and any more sweep will just slow the boat down. If more angle is needed for close quarter maneuvering such as near the ramp, then just pull out the tiller stub, and you will have 45°. However we have not found this necessary at all, and our ramp area is one of the worst I have used.

 

post-18231-0-15625400-1400528946_thumb.jpg

F-22 Rudder at full lock - any more when sailing will just slow the boat.

But if more is needed when motoring then just unplug alloy tiller stub, and you will have 45°

However, probably easier in his case to turn the motor, which is even more effective

 

The F-22 boomed main traveler is further forward and this will limit tiller sweep to 19° which is still probably enough for most. However, we may look at a remote tiller option for boomed mains in the future.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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The second F-22 has already beaten our max speed, doing 17.2 knots across the bay tonight as a stage 2 kit, not bad considering this one has a boom!

 

post-10329-0-05833700-1400668097_thumb.jpg

 

 

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For those asking for more pix, a raw vid of today with Screacher trial in 6 knots of SE early in the day. We were doing 8 plus knots on an old handheld GPS and as always the battery went flat as the wind came in.

 

Many bits still to be rigged correctly, but OMG.

 

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For those asking for more pix, a raw vid of today with Screacher trial in 6 knots of SE early in the day. We were doing 8 plus knots on an old handheld GPS and as always the battery went flat as the wind came in.

 

Many bits still to be rigged correctly, but OMG.

 

 

Looks great Peter. Love the way that lee float sits on top of the water, would love to know the weight.

Love the way the whisker stays seem to just disappear into the float bows.

Boomless looks great. Suggest anyone really wanting a boom should order boomless and just add a boom. No need to change anything.

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Thanks Paul, the weight is all academic because you know as much as I do there is a lot of stuff to be racing ready, and then some comfort as this is a cruiser as well. But at the dock and sailing, both ends of all hulls are out of the water, Should get her measured like this and LOA would be 6 metres LOL.

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Thanks Paul, the weight is all academic because you know as much as I do there is a lot of stuff to be racing ready, and then some comfort as this is a cruiser as well. But at the dock and sailing, both ends of all hulls are out of the water, Should get her measured like this and LOA would be 6 metres LOL.

 

You mean length water line (LWL) ? The length overall is still... 23 feet or like 7m... LOA

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Go with the twin tillers Pete. Much faster tacking and gybing when there is a bit on. My boat is fitted out to use either and the single one has been used once and now languishes in the corner of the shed. Just need to get the shockcord the right length by trial and error. They seem to sit nicely about 300 forward of the kite block. Hope to see you for the last couple of winter series races. In Zurich right now.

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Thanks Paul, the weight is all academic because you know as much as I do there is a lot of stuff to be racing ready, and then some comfort as this is a cruiser as well. But at the dock and sailing, both ends of all hulls are out of the water, Should get her measured like this and LOA would be 6 metres LOL.

Of course academic but very interesting all the same.

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Go with the twin tillers Pete. Much faster tacking and gybing when there is a bit on. My boat is fitted out to use either and the single one has been used once and now languishes in the corner of the shed. Just need to get the shockcord the right length by trial and error. They seem to sit nicely about 300 forward of the kite block. Hope to see you for the last couple of winter series races. In Zurich right now.

Personal preference. Mine came with twin tiller extensions. I sailed it that way for a while and hated it so I took one off. 4 years later I am very happy with the single.

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Go with the twin tillers Pete. Much faster tacking and gybing when there is a bit on. My boat is fitted out to use either and the single one has been used once and now languishes in the corner of the shed. Just need to get the shockcord the right length by trial and error. They seem to sit nicely about 300 forward of the kite block. Hope to see you for the last couple of winter series races. In Zurich right now.

Personal preference. Mine came with twin tiller extensions. I sailed it that way for a while and hated it so I took one off. 4 years later I am very happy with the single.
Of course. I just find it eliminates one step in the tacking and gybing process when there is a bit on or in close quarters with other boats and the skipper needs their head out of the boat.
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Tell me when you get too much of boat #1, here are a few of today's light wind sail. Getting all the bugs sorted, got the first kite up in readiness for tomorrow's first heat of our winter series, might leave the fenders out on the start line. I will be taking it very carefully.

We also had a great family sail last week down to St Helena Island gliding under screacher and for lunch discovered another jewel of this design, shown in first pic. We anchored in the lee of the island and lazily left the mainsail up. She wandered a bit so I fired the mainsheet snapshackle and the boomless flag just sat in the middle of the boat for an hour. Very convenient.

You may call me a cruel parent, but for today's desired photos, I sailed into Bramble Bay and pushed my daughter off on a SUP with a camera. She was doing pretty well till a big mackerel did some aerial work near her.

Yes, the tack of the jib is too high in these shots, and the mainsail battens have been tensioned again since then. They set really well.

The only negative I have so far is that I have been ripped off buying floats that never seem to be in the water, even when there is crew on board.

post-10329-0-08637700-1401532384_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-94047300-1401532401_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-76430400-1401532412_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-81833400-1401532432_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-59686400-1401532447_thumb.jpg

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In the first picture, can you tell me how tall are the ladies and is the plastic seat in the back of the boat attached to something? Can we get a couple more pictures of how the seat is mounted if it is or how it is attached.

 

Thanks

Bill

F22 #226

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Ladies are 165 cm, seat is a favourite extra of mine from tne F27. It is a plastic bucket seat used for ally dinghies, screwed into a sheet of plywood with a carpet base. We found the big flat surfaces worked really well with it and I intend making another until I fit the carbon tube seat back Ian is designing. The fugliness of the seat is additional motivation for him.

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Ladies are 165 cm, seat is a favourite extra of mine from tne F27. It is a plastic bucket seat used for ally dinghies, screwed into a sheet of plywood with a carpet base. We found the big flat surfaces worked really well with it and I intend making another until I fit the carbon tube seat back Ian is designing. The fugliness of the seat is additional motivation for him.

No need to mess with all that fancy stuff Pete. You know you want green plastic garden chairs. You've seen them used on other more sophisticated design boats.

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Motor is an 8 yamaha and is a great cruising motor, also great to get into the swell we have at cabbage tree creek sometimes. I am over 5 hp filling removers, plus the weight at the back is not an issue in such a boat so light.

 

And a pretty name sticker is on the way.

 

First race today is no real indication yet, but in 3 knots we did a good port tack start and a couple of screacher legs under the brilliant 30 sq.m. screacher to finish 20 minutes ahead over the line ahead of Boss Racing, Frequent Flyer, Turning Point, and Hasta La Vista. Only pic is from a tinny mobile, shows how soft it was.

Next race in 2 weeks.post-10329-0-80368000-1401614280_thumb.jpg

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Ladies are 165 cm, seat is a favourite extra of mine from tne F27. It is a plastic bucket seat used for ally dinghies, screwed into a sheet of plywood with a carpet base. We found the big flat surfaces worked really well with it and I intend making another until I fit the carbon tube seat back Ian is designing. The fugliness of the seat is additional motivation for him.

That is Great! I am sure Ian hates that on his new sleek looking boat. Its like putting bull horns on the hood of a new cadillac.

Bill

F22 #226

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First race today is no real indication yet, but in 3 knots we did a good port tack start and a couple of screacher legs under the brilliant 30 sq.m. screacher to finish 20 minutes ahead over the line ahead of Boss Racing, Frequent Flyer, Turning Point, and Hasta La Vista. Only pic is from a tinny mobile, shows how soft it was.

Next race in 2 weeks.attachicon.gifwint 1.jpg

 

Congratulations Peter on an excellent first race ever for the Production F-22, and photo below of Peter at finish line shows how far ahead his F-22R was:

 

post-18231-0-90973800-1401670596_thumb.jpg

 

One can just see the next boats in the distance. However, light winds can be a lottery, plus the F-22 is only a small roomy cruiser, and never designed to be a line honors machine, so, while a win is nice first time up, the F-22 is really more a middle of the pack boat. Or maybe we can soon say the F-22R at least belongs in the top half of the pack.

 

Just so long as we can keep Peter off the bow pole…….

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

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Looks like a very neat package. What is the production rate now? How soon will the factory be at full production?

I think the production rate "now" is a boat every 3-4 months? Ian will have a better answer. My answer is just a guess from the info that I have.

 

Bill

F22 #226

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Tell me when you get too much of boat #1, here are a few of today's light wind sail. Getting all the bugs sorted, got the first kite up in readiness for tomorrow's first heat of our winter series, might leave the fenders out on the start line. I will be taking it very carefully.

We also had a great family sail last week down to St Helena Island gliding under screacher and for lunch discovered another jewel of this design, shown in first pic. We anchored in the lee of the island and lazily left the mainsail up. She wandered a bit so I fired the mainsheet snapshackle and the boomless flag just sat in the middle of the boat for an hour. Very convenient.

You may call me a cruel parent, but for today's desired photos, I sailed into Bramble Bay and pushed my daughter off on a SUP with a camera. She was doing pretty well till a big mackerel did some aerial work near her.

Yes, the tack of the jib is too high in these shots, and the mainsail battens have been tensioned again since then. They set really well.

The only negative I have so far is that I have been ripped off buying floats that never seem to be in the water, even when there is crew on board.

attachicon.gifDSCF3526.jpgattachicon.gifP1010470.jpgattachicon.gifP1010475.jpgattachicon.gifP1010474.jpgattachicon.gifP1010494.jpg

Peter. We will never get too much of boat#1.

Back in the early 80's we had SeaWind 24 fleets in Sydney Harbour and Botany Bay. We used to get together for the "Seawind 24 States" at Easter. Between races we would anchor or run up on the beach and unless it was blowing 55 knots none of us used to lower the main as the boltrope was such a PITA. Just disconnect the boom (S hook or snapshackle) and release the cunningham, didn't even need to lock the rotation.

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There goes your handicap . . .

I very much doubt that Peter would be concerned with PHS handicap. Actually a really bad PHS is the sign of a really good sailor.

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First race today is no real indication yet, but in 3 knots we did a good port tack start and a couple of screacher legs under the brilliant 30 sq.m. screacher to finish 20 minutes ahead over the line ahead of Boss Racing, Frequent Flyer, Turning Point, and Hasta La Vista. Only pic is from a tinny mobile, shows how soft it was.

Next race in 2 weeks.attachicon.gifwint 1.jpg

 

Congratulations Peter on an excellent first race ever for the Production F-22, and photo below of Peter at finish line shows how far ahead his F-22R was:

 

attachicon.gifFinishWS.jpg

 

One can just see the next boats in the distance. However, light winds can be a lottery, plus the F-22 is only a small roomy cruiser, and never designed to be a line honors machine, so, while a win is nice first time up, the F-22 is really more a middle of the pack boat. Or maybe we can soon say the F-22R at least belongs in the top half of the pack.

 

Just so long as we can keep Peter off the bow pole…….

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work

Yes Congratulations Peter, and Ian!

Pity Midnight Rain was not there to give a proper comparison. I would expect you to beat the cats in those conditions though not by that much and Hasta la Vista should be much closer. I don't buy the lottery argument.

Plan built F-22's are already well and truly front half of the pack, nipping at the heels of (Australian) Div1 (front 10% of the pack). This production boat will be doing more than that. I'm predicting Peter will have a very lonely race if he is in Div 2 or close exciting racing with the bottom end of Div 1.

Despite your intentions Ian, you have designed and built a 'weapon'.

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Thanks Nuddy, things are going well, but plenty of work to do yet.

Midnight Rain was there sailing 2up, we were 3up, and Bill got a great shift into the first mark and went around ahead of all of us. He tried to run the big kite shy and it was a handbrake while we unrolled the nice big sail out the front. When he got a little flat kite up he came good but the screacher was the sail for the day. He will beat us on other days, and I hope he does it occasionally...

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Thanks Nuddy, things are going well, but plenty of work to do yet.

Midnight Rain was there sailing 2up, we were 3up, and Bill got a great shift into the first mark and went around ahead of all of us. He tried to run the big kite shy and it was a handbrake while we unrolled the nice big sail out the front. When he got a little flat kite up he came good but the screacher was the sail for the day. He will beat us on other days, and I hope he does it occasionally...

Where did Midnight Rain finish over the line? How far behind you?

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Plan built F-22's are already well and truly front half of the pack, nipping at the heels of (Australian) Div1 (front 10% of the pack). This production boat will be doing more than that. I'm predicting Peter will have a very lonely race if he is in Div 2 or close exciting racing with the bottom end of Div 1.

What is changed to make the production boats faster than the plan built in an apples to apples comparison (ie same cabin configuration, no extra add ons on the plan built, foam core for both, boomless main, carbon options in the same places for both, etc etc)? IIRC there was some note in the plans about gelcoat being slightly more heavy than paint and fairing with the expectation that that could give the plan built a slight weight advantage if the forms were set up fair enough though it seems like that can't be too big a difference either way.

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Rain was 22 minutes back, but that was a freakish race, won't happen again like that.

As for differences between plan and production durundal, all those variables you mentioned are correct, as well as how much junk is on each boat that day. Rain was built beautifully by Julian Griffiths, could have flopped the moulds off her. These will be good comparison boats if we point them in the same direction. Rain weight is 820 kg in race trim and I am sure we were tens of kilos lighter. They had 2 bodies we had three. Upwind they felt pretty similar speed in the limited time on that leg. There is a slight volume tweak for the moulded boat which I can not quantify, I am just the smiling crash test dummy.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Plan built F-22's are already well and truly front half of the pack, nipping at the heels of (Australian) Div1 (front 10% of the pack). This production boat will be doing more than that. I'm predicting Peter will have a very lonely race if he is in Div 2 or close exciting racing with the bottom end of Div 1.

What is changed to make the production boats faster than the plan built in an apples to apples comparison (ie same cabin configuration, no extra add ons on the plan built, foam core for both, boomless main, carbon options in the same places for both, etc etc)? IIRC there was some note in the plans about gelcoat being slightly more heavy than paint and fairing with the expectation that that could give the plan built a slight weight advantage if the forms were set up fair enough though it seems like that can't be too big a difference either way.

It will be interesting to see the OMR weight of Peter's boat. I doubt anyone could do a better job plan building than Julian so Midnight Rain will be a valid comparison. Given Ian's attention to detail I would expect the female moulded version to be considerably lighter. Then there is the considerable refinement Ian has made to the design as he has developed the production version. Then there is the floats - even with just a casual glance it is obvious that they are very different and in a bit of breeze I expect the production F-22 to be considerably quicker than the very best of the plan built boats. How long is it now since Ian drew the plans for the F-22?

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Peter,

 

Are you planning to have a 'viewing' day at Airlie Race Week? I for one am keen to have a close inspection, and Im sure many others if they know about it?
congrats mate- she looks great!

Cheers,

Craig Verrall

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What do you think Fuller. I reckon if you'd kept Bare Essentials main hull in the water you could have won in Lincoln. Throw away the foils as well - too much drag.

Yep they're right, foils are a waste of time, as I stated before. The boat is definitely faster and better balanced when the main hull is in the water.

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Peter,

 

Are you planning to have a 'viewing' day at Airlie Race Week? I for one am keen to have a close inspection, and Im sure many others if they know about it?

congrats mate- she looks great!

Cheers,

Craig Verrall

Not sure on the northern trips yet Craig, with Airlie Hammo and Magnetic all running multi events this year, all would send me broke. I will ask the other owners soon what they are intending so we can get a good critical mass. Geelong Nationals is looking good though.

Peter

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It was a real hoot, 10- 20 SW blustery, cool, flat water for most and a great show for the fleet which yesterday also included Renaissance and Spook to give the monohulls something to yearn for. Even though the usual series has a lot of windward leewards we pleaded successfully for a bigger course with some reaching for the big boats and ended up with nice close reaches from Fisheries to Otter Rock and a nearly starboard tack only return leg. We used the screacher and were hanging on to the tails (as long as we could) of Boss and Frequent Flyer, then a few new rig stretching events got us furling up the big sail often but still enjoying the ride. I think Turning Point had newer synthetics and the canting rig the wrong way got them off the course of the first race for a refit, but they came back second race in fine form. Results are at http://www.qcyc.com.au/go/ws/About/2014Results.aspx with no OMR yet but a PCF scoresheet which does not mean much.

 

I had my usual racing crew members on for the first time and they were loving the open and easy cockpit, easy string pulling straight off the close at hand mast, fairly dry sailing, and the speed apparent already. From my end of the boat I was stoked that there was never a hint of cavitation even though the centre hull was generating a lot of lift from a small surface in contact with the water. The windward legs (aided by flattish water) were sensational with the floats feeling like they would never go under, a bit like the F-27. The rotating wing provided awesome balance a bit like the feel of the F-24 and Sprints, but in my biased seat, it seemed considerably faster. If I had to define the difference it would be that the sweet spot was easier to find and very easy to maintain. I was surprised that the boat would pinch with windward telltales stalled and still travelling fast, probably a function of the lift from the newer daggerboard profile. We fairly easily nailed a competitive C-36 in our club upwind, a surprise for all of us, and on one leg the F-82R did the same to us.

 

Too busy for pix sorry.

 

Peter

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Somebody took this when it was all a bit frantic, will buy them a rum if I can find which boat.

Frequent Flyer had sailed past to windward (we asked them nicely to stay upright) with screacher up and flapping. We had just done a furl and drop when it was apparent the rig was stretching a bit much under load, but you can see there was a bit of steam being generated even with two sails.

Good times!

post-10329-0-95565300-1402956946_thumb.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

An update was overdue and many good events and one not so good event to report today.

We have been doing plenty of sailing with friends and family, all impressed with the open cockpit and roomy insides. I made a very average furling jib which works great for cruising while the good race jib stays inside the bag. The light weight of the boat is always apparent with acceleration in any winds as you harden sheets. Unsure of top speeds yet but that will come.

post-10329-0-70477100-1404082340_thumb.jpg (apologies to 80's A-cup sail designers for my copy of a kevlar tapedrive)

 

Internal fitout has been fun with the removable seats able to be attached to ATL featherlight seat backs outside the boat after some carefull measurements. The seats are now glued in and there is enough room behind them for crew bags of the medium Burke size plus all the usual stuff we carry. I sewed and fitted net bags under the seats as well for easy and dry access to lifejackets. That area could be built in if necessary.

post-10329-0-16456400-1404082142_thumb.jpgpost-10329-0-09479100-1404082152_thumb.jpg

 

A big westerly yesterday has ended things for a while with the boat name ominously resonating as the mast came down in 3 pieces. We had 25 plus knots so went for a double reef on the way to the line and then put the jib up just before crossing. The reefing gear worked fine. Jib was flapping a bit with the usual twisted sheets as we hardened the halyard, then as it was sheeted on the day went bad with a bang. Nobody hurt was important, and only one spreader hole in the main is good also.

 

Lots of photos are being examined at the factory today to look for the usual suspects in the equation. The reality is that this was a light mast and Ian had always said it could possibly fail, we were all just hoping it would take a while longer. I am glad all the subsequent masts are built with much more carbon in them.

 

Anyone need a bad crew for a few weeks?

post-10329-0-74266600-1404082175_thumb.jpg

 

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Ouch - one of the bad days, but not unexpected, as the first mast was built very lightly to see if we could break it, and the answer is now yes. Being a test mast it was not originally supposed to leave NZ, but being short of masts it went with #1 boat to get an F-22 sailing in Australia quicker, which it did. However, you were supposed to look after it Peter, as we were hoping not to send the replacement until next year - I hope you were wearing the crash test dummy helmets that were advised! Now all we have to figure out is how to get the replacement across the Tasman quickly.

 

Note that all subsequent production masts have been stronger as a matter of course, and the cause of this failure is being investigated. I also broke the first mast on a Trailertri 680 many years ago, in one of its first races, it also being lighter than it should have been. However, I have always preferred a light mast on a trailerable, as one has to lift them around, and unless one pushes the envelope in such things one never finds out what the lower limit is, or where any weak area may be. The #1 F-27 had a very light slender mast also, even a tapered masthead, but while it seemed to stand up fine for me, I was not game to put it on the production version, as it was bendy and took some looking after.

 

In this F-22 case, initial thoughts are that spreader rake needed to be less on such a light mast, as it was noticeably a little tender fore and aft, even though a wing mast. The second mast was noticeably much stronger and diamonds could be tensioned significantly higher. New spreaders were in the pipeline for #1, but just not enough time. We may build a similarly light mast for our next factory boat, but with less spreader rake, as otherwise that initial mast was standing up okay, and the lightness is certainly nice to have.

 

Fortunately, there was also a good day last week, with an F-32SRC doing very well in the JPMorgan Asset Management 'Round the Island' Race in the UK, as did an F-32RX and F-27s.

 

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News4/F-32SRinRoundIsland.html

 

Win some, lose some.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work...

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