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Reeeel Poor Sportsmanship


AJ Oliver

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

(The information below was sent to PHRF - Lake Erie on Sept. 6th, 2011. It has been

edited for clarity. I take full responsibility for its factual accuracy. Before posting it on

SA, I ran it by the forum editors. AJ Oliver, Sandusky, Ohio)

 

To - Mr. Douglas Howe, Chairman and Chris Merkle, Vice Chairman

PHRF - Lake Erie

 

From - Arnold J Oliver, #445 (Class Struggle), Sandusky Sailing Club

 

Dear Mr.'s Howe & Merkle -

 

Since PHRF-LE officials ". . represent the racing community as a whole" (from your

web site) it seems reasonable that they observe basic standards of sailing sportsmanship.

Two PHRF-LE officials, Bill Kellner (Area Handicapper)& Judy Kellner (PHRF-LE

Secretary), do not.

 

After losing a protest at the Sandusky Sailing Club's Hog Wild Regatta on August

27th (at about 4:45 PM), Mr. Kellner lost his composure, to put it mildly. In front of at

least five witnesses, he cursed, grabbed and pushed the sailor to whom he had lost the

protest (me, as it happens). Further, Mr. Kellner threatened to ram (what to him was)

the offending boat (my S2 7.9 "Class Struggle"). Judy Kellner chimed in with shouts of

"Liar!", and "Asshole!"

 

It is worth noting that Mr. Kellner chose to engage in this behavior in front of my

crew, 17 year old David Z. (very new to racing), and his Mom, Sally, who had never raced

before.

 

In my 25 years at the Sandusky Sailing Club, I have seen some pretty upset people

after a race, but I have NEVER before witnessed physical grabbing & pushing in anger by

anyone. Nor have I ever before heard open threats. These actions are beyond the pale,

and in clear violation of US Sailing Rule 69.

 

The threat to ram is especially troubling. It is clearly an attempt by Mr. Kellner

to intimidate competitors on the race course by putting the safety of crews and boats in

jeopardy.

 

PHRF-LE members have a right to expect a modicum of decent behavior from the

organization's officials. Right now, they are not getting it.

 

I did make an effort to resolve this quietly, giving Mr. Kellner & Judy over a week

to apologize privately. They have declined to do so. (Nor have they disputed the

accuracy of what I have written here.)

 

Behavior such as Mr. Kellner's threatens the integrity of our sport, and it should

not be tolerated.

 

I feel strongly enough about this issue to post it on Sailing Anarchy, as well as

other sailing forums.

 

Sincerely, Arnold J Oliver

Sandusky Sailing Club

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Without commenting on the incident itself, is PHRF-LE really where this should be directed?. It would seem to me that the race organizing authority (Sandusky Sailing Club) and it's protest committee would be the one that you should send this to for review and possible action.

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Mr. Oliver,

 

Care to share a little background on the original incident/protest that led to this apparently ill conceived reaction so that we might have a little context in which to form opinions?

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WoW....pretty scary behavior from a PHRF Handicapper. Was there copious amounts of Alcohol involved?? Sounds like someone is a sore sport!! What is it you are looking for?? Discredit their name (check...got that). Kicked off the PHRF Board (check....sent to their Chairman, should get that pretty easy). You mention Rule 69....do you want them banned from sailing in your Local events??

 

I doubt you'll get the public apology your looking for!!

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Someone has to say it.......

 

OK I'll say it

 

Race in the America's Cup so you wont have any bickering :lol:

 

MANY TIMES it's just the most Pushy who wind-up in the positions atop organizations

 

NOT the best for the position - just whoever made the Biggest Fuss to get there

 

file a rule 69 on their holier than youz ARSE and let em stew in their own process

 

then post what happens here :)

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Not a fan of airing dirty laundry like this, you should file a 69 if you feel it is appropriate.

 

His behaviour was poor, I agree, but your smear campaign without following the procedures afforded to you via governing bodies is kinda lame. (but it seems to fall within the parameters of acceptable practice on SA) If that fails then bring it here if it is a legit beef.

 

As others have asked What was the original protest? I'll add - Did you indeed lie? Are you a jerk that should learn the rules?

 

I have witnessed a few protests where the best liar has won. Just saying :ph34r:

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If there were many witnesses the proper recourse is to file a rule 69 protest. I believe it could be filed by any of the witnesses to the behaviour.

[Pedant hat]Actually, you can't file a rule 69 protest. Boats can only protest other boats, (or request redress). A boat can't protest a person. A person can file a report alleging gross misconduct from a competitor, but it's not a protest (so protest requirement of timings, flags etc don't apply). The protest committee can then decide whether to call a hearing [/Ph]

 

60.1 A boat may

a ) protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 unless she was involved in or saw the incident; or

b ) request redress.

69.1 Action by a Protest Committee

(a) When a protest committee, from its own observation or a report received from any source, believes that a competitor may have committed a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship,

or may have brought the sport into disrepute, it may call a hearing.....

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Dear Barleymalt & Others -

 

I'm also pursuing this with the Sailing Club, and will go beyond that if necessary.

 

But I thought I'd post it here too. It concerns all of us. Why not air it out?

 

Dirty laundry? Yep, lets hang it out there for all to see.

 

Protest situation - I was on port approaching the windward mark, and tried to tack on Mr. Kellenr's lee bow as his boat approached on starboard. Not certain, but pretty sure we were outside the 3 boat length circle. Mr. Kellner thought I tacked too close, forcing him to head up to avoid a collision. The Protest Committee ruled in my favor. And two of three boats that witnessed the incident also supported my version of events - that I gave Mr. Kellner's boat (Hey Jude) sufficient room, so that by the time he had to head up (if he did) we had already completed our tack. Not too exciting really, but like a lot of rules situations there were some judgement calls involved.

 

In 25 years of racing, I've never protested anyone; and this is the first time anyone has protested me. If I believe that I have fouled someone, I do the turns; and if I'm fouled badly, I ask other boats to do the turns. I don't push the rules. Don't have to - got an S2 7.9 !! (Ha ha - just kidding)

 

I think the idea is that, when you lose a protest, you just accept the result even if you don't agree with it.

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Not a fan of airing dirty laundry like this, you should file a 69 if you feel it is appropriate.

 

His behaviour was poor, I agree, but your smear campaign without following the procedures afforded to you via governing bodies is kinda lame. (but it seems to fall within the parameters of acceptable practice on SA) If that fails then bring it here if it is a legit beef.

 

As others have asked What was the original protest? I'll add - Did you indeed lie? Are you a jerk that should learn the rules?

 

I have witnessed a few protests where the best liar has won. Just saying :ph34r:

 

+1

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Whatever you do from this point forward, I would advise that you do not call this dude a grifter. Everything else is in play.

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wtf is it with newbies joining for the express purpose of sliming a vendor or some other sailor. If the guy is as unhinged as you are portraying, you may have just invited him to take a swing at you next time. if not, then you are the poor sport here.

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If there were many witnesses the proper recourse is to file a rule 69 protest. I believe it could be filed by any of the witnesses to the behaviour.

why just not file assault and battery?

This.

 

Slap this belligerent asshole with criminal charges.

 

There is no excuse for that sort of behavior.

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wtf is it with newbies joining for the express purpose of sliming a vendor or some other sailor. If the guy is as unhinged as you are portraying, you may have just invited him to take a swing at you next time. if not, then you are the poor sport here.

 

Did North ever come out with their own line of Snuggies?......

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If he apologizes and gives you a big old bear hug will that make you feel better? Will the feel of his whiskers against yours ease your pain and suffering?

 

The guy is clearly out of line to behave like this, and probably a little unstable, but I'm not sure that warrants a public bashing. Best thing to do is provide the necessary details and witnesses to the relevant organizing committees and US Sailing, and stay clear of him on the race course.

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Yawn...how come no one has asked why you didn't beat his ass down in the parking lot when he laid his hands on you. Alternatively you could have called the cops. Then got a restraining order requiring him to stay 100 yards away from you at all times -- he did threaten to ram you after all -- that would permanently fuck up his starts.

 

In any event, I'm guessing that something you did annoyed him.

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But I thought I'd post it here too. It concerns all of us. Why not air it out?

 

Dirty laundry? Yep, lets hang it out there for all to see.

 

 

I believe it only involves you and the alleged offending party, how does it affect me or the sailing community at large? Keep in in the Sandusky sailing community until you get the fella pitched for his behaviour.

 

Did you slow the situation down and talk to the guy after? Was there a major event in his life that had him on edge?

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If he apologizes and gives you a big old bear hug will that make you feel better? Will the feel of his whiskers against yours ease your pain and suffering?

 

The guy is clearly out of line to behave like this, and probably a little unstable, but I'm not sure that warrants a public bashing. Best thing to do is provide the necessary details and witnesses to the relevant organizing committees and US Sailing, and stay clear of him on the race course.

 

Translation: affirm his actions, encouraging a repeat tantrum at the next opportunity.

 

Do I have that right?

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Best thing to do is [...] stay clear of him on the race course.

 

Oh to hell with that! That is exactly the response that bully-boy wants.

 

Be polite and friendly in every encounter, but on the race course tack on his wind, lee bow, shut him out at the committee boat, etc. every opportunity, without fail.

 

(I see Figment and I are on the same page here.)

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AJ Oliver, quit posting in large bold-face font.

It makes you look like a drama queen.

 

Everyone here can read the normal posting font just fine.

 

 

Except Woody.........

 

hay I can read just fine

 

sphellin and gramore is another thing B)

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wtf is it with newbies joining for the express purpose of sliming a vendor or some other sailor. If the guy is as unhinged as you are portraying, you may have just invited him to take a swing at you next time. if not, then you are the poor sport here.

 

Did North ever come out with their own line of Snuggies?......

 

Not sure, but if someone starts complaining about the cut of them it will be one thread that could do without the pics.

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If he apologizes and gives you a big old bear hug will that make you feel better? Will the feel of his whiskers against yours ease your pain and suffering?

 

The guy is clearly out of line to behave like this, and probably a little unstable, but I'm not sure that warrants a public bashing. Best thing to do is provide the necessary details and witnesses to the relevant organizing committees and US Sailing, and stay clear of him on the race course.

 

Translation: affirm his actions, encouraging a repeat tantrum at the next opportunity.

 

Do I have that right?

 

Not even close, by no means am I implying he should run away in fear. My feeling is you want to keep clear of wild card hacks. No reason to let some douche mess up your race just because he went off his meds. I'm not sure how that affirms his actions or would provoke future tantrums, but it will certainly help your standings.

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But I thought I'd post it here too. It concerns all of us. Why not air it out?

 

Dirty laundry? Yep, lets hang it out there for all to see.

 

 

I believe it only involves you and the alleged offending party, how does it affect me or the sailing community at large? Keep in in the Sandusky sailing community until you get the fella pitched for his behaviour.

 

Did you slow the situation down and talk to the guy after? Was there a major event in his life that had him on edge?

 

I believe you are not the SA forum police.

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OK, folks . . a few more points.

 

To me, if you are going to beat up on someone or some company (figuratively speaking, of course), you should put your name on the post and be prepared to defend what you write. That's what I did. A lot of the anonymous bashing that goes on at SA does not impress me much. Mr. Kellner has every right to respond.

 

SSC is a great organization that I love with a passion - as do hundreds of others. This issue has nothing to do with SSC.

 

I was advised not to press charges, though I suppose I still could. Hoped to resolve it quietly, but that did not work out.

 

Do any of you have experience with Rule 69 enforcement? Like what?

 

 

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Best thing to do is [...] stay clear of him on the race course.

 

Oh to hell with that! That is exactly the response that bully-boy wants.

 

Be polite and friendly in every encounter, but on the race course tack on his wind, lee bow, shut him out at the committee boat, etc. every opportunity, without fail.

 

(I see Figment and I are on the same page here.)

 

 

+1

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Do any of you have experience with Rule 69 enforcement? Like what?

 

 

I have. Nothing to write home about..

 

Be calm and write a report to your National Authority (US Sail). They will take care of the rest. Please pay attention to 'or other person involved' in rule below - that covers race officials as well.

 

Good luck!

 

 

RRS 69.2 Action by a National Authority or Initial Action by the ISAF

 

(a) When a national authority or the ISAF receives a report alleging a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or a report alleging conduct that has brought the sport into disrepute, or a report required by rule 69.1© or 69.1(e), it may conduct an investigation and, when appropriate, shall conduct a hearing. It may then take any disciplinary action within its jurisdiction it considers appropriate against the competitor or boat, or other person involved, including suspending eligibility, permanently or for a specified period of time, to compete in any event held within its

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Do any of you have experience with Rule 69 enforcement? Like what?

 

 

I have. Nothing to write home about..

 

Be calm and write a report to your National Authority (US Sail). They will take care of the rest. Please pay attention to 'or other person involved' in rule below - that covers race officials as well.

 

Good luck!

 

 

RRS 69.2 Action by a National Authority or Initial Action by the ISAF

 

(a) When a national authority or the ISAF receives a report alleging a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or a report alleging conduct that has brought the sport into disrepute, or a report required by rule 69.1© or 69.1(e), it may conduct an investigation and, when appropriate, shall conduct a hearing. It may then take any disciplinary action within its jurisdiction it considers appropriate against the competitor or boat, or other person involved, including suspending eligibility, permanently or for a specified period of time, to compete in any event held within its

 

I suspect that "or other person involved" could even mean the person making the report too if ultimately it was determined that the facts reported were not the real facts. Not saying that's what is happening here as I have no knowledge of the alleged incident. I have however known Mr. Kellner casually for a number of years and am surprised to hear that he would react in such a manner. Anything's possible but I find the alleged situation surprising.

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

(The information below was sent to PHRF - Lake Erie on Sept. 6th, 2011. It has been

edited for clarity. I take full responsibility for its factual accuracy. Before posting it on

SA, I ran it by the forum editors. AJ Oliver, Sandusky, Ohio)

 

To - Mr. Douglas Howe, Chairman and Chris Merkle, Vice Chairman

PHRF - Lake Erie

 

From - Arnold J Oliver, #445 (Class Struggle), Sandusky Sailing Club

 

Dear Mr.'s Howe & Merkle -

 

Since PHRF-LE officials ". . represent the racing community as a whole" (from your

web site) it seems reasonable that they observe basic standards of sailing sportsmanship.

Two PHRF-LE officials, Bill Kellner (Area Handicapper)& Judy Kellner (PHRF-LE

Secretary), do not.

 

After losing a protest at the Sandusky Sailing Club's Hog Wild Regatta on August

27th (at about 4:45 PM), Mr. Kellner lost his composure, to put it mildly. In front of at

least five witnesses, he cursed, grabbed and pushed the sailor to whom he had lost the

protest (me, as it happens). Further, Mr. Kellner threatened to ram (what to him was)

the offending boat (my S2 7.9 "Class Struggle"). Judy Kellner chimed in with shouts of

"Liar!", and "Asshole!"

 

It is worth noting that Mr. Kellner chose to engage in this behavior in front of my

crew, 17 year old David Z. (very new to racing), and his Mom, Sally, who had never raced

before.

 

In my 25 years at the Sandusky Sailing Club, I have seen some pretty upset people

after a race, but I have NEVER before witnessed physical grabbing & pushing in anger by

anyone. Nor have I ever before heard open threats. These actions are beyond the pale,

and in clear violation of US Sailing Rule 69.

 

The threat to ram is especially troubling. It is clearly an attempt by Mr. Kellner

to intimidate competitors on the race course by putting the safety of crews and boats in

jeopardy.

 

PHRF-LE members have a right to expect a modicum of decent behavior from the

organization's officials. Right now, they are not getting it.

 

I did make an effort to resolve this quietly, giving Mr. Kellner & Judy over a week

to apologize privately. They have declined to do so. (Nor have they disputed the

accuracy of what I have written here.)

 

Behavior such as Mr. Kellner's threatens the integrity of our sport, and it should

not be tolerated.

 

I feel strongly enough about this issue to post it on Sailing Anarchy, as well as

other sailing forums.

 

Sincerely, Arnold J Oliver

Sandusky Sailing Club

 

it wouldn't have happened if you'd raced under IRC

;)

BTW, agree wth the lot above who said why bring it here.....

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

(The information below was sent to PHRF - Lake Erie on Sept. 6th, 2011. It has been

edited for clarity. I take full responsibility for its factual accuracy. Before posting it on

SA, I ran it by the forum editors. AJ Oliver, Sandusky, Ohio)

 

To - Mr. Douglas Howe, Chairman and Chris Merkle, Vice Chairman

PHRF - Lake Erie

 

From - Arnold J Oliver, #445 (Class Struggle), Sandusky Sailing Club

 

Dear Mr.'s Howe & Merkle -

 

Since PHRF-LE officials ". . represent the racing community as a whole" (from your

web site) it seems reasonable that they observe basic standards of sailing sportsmanship.

Two PHRF-LE officials, Bill Kellner (Area Handicapper)& Judy Kellner (PHRF-LE

Secretary), do not.

 

After losing a protest at the Sandusky Sailing Club's Hog Wild Regatta on August

27th (at about 4:45 PM), Mr. Kellner lost his composure, to put it mildly. In front of at

least five witnesses, he cursed, grabbed and pushed the sailor to whom he had lost the

protest (me, as it happens). Further, Mr. Kellner threatened to ram (what to him was)

the offending boat (my S2 7.9 "Class Struggle"). Judy Kellner chimed in with shouts of

"Liar!", and "Asshole!"

 

It is worth noting that Mr. Kellner chose to engage in this behavior in front of my

crew, 17 year old David Z. (very new to racing), and his Mom, Sally, who had never raced

before.

 

In my 25 years at the Sandusky Sailing Club, I have seen some pretty upset people

after a race, but I have NEVER before witnessed physical grabbing & pushing in anger by

anyone. Nor have I ever before heard open threats. These actions are beyond the pale,

and in clear violation of US Sailing Rule 69.

 

The threat to ram is especially troubling. It is clearly an attempt by Mr. Kellner

to intimidate competitors on the race course by putting the safety of crews and boats in

jeopardy.

 

PHRF-LE members have a right to expect a modicum of decent behavior from the

organization's officials. Right now, they are not getting it.

 

I did make an effort to resolve this quietly, giving Mr. Kellner & Judy over a week

to apologize privately. They have declined to do so. (Nor have they disputed the

accuracy of what I have written here.)

 

Behavior such as Mr. Kellner's threatens the integrity of our sport, and it should

not be tolerated.

 

I feel strongly enough about this issue to post it on Sailing Anarchy, as well as

other sailing forums.

 

Sincerely, Arnold J Oliver

Sandusky Sailing Club

 

 

This is exactly what happens when certain individuals who do not know how to act properly are given too much power. What a shame.

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If there were many witnesses the proper recourse is to file a rule 69 protest. I believe it could be filed by any of the witnesses to the behaviour.

An individual can NOT file a S69 protest.

That can only be done by a protest committee.

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The proper thing to do is to file a report under Rule 69.1 with the SSA protest committee. The report should be as comprehensive as possible, and should describe the language and conduct that you believe constitutes a gross breach of the rules or good sportsmanship, and the age and identity of all under-age persons who were offended by the conduct in issue. The report should also include the names of any witnesses to the offensive conduct. (Rule 69.2 does not apply, it refers to reports from protest committees that a competitor broke rule 69.1.)

 

Because the protest involved an incident between boats during a race, I believe that the offender's capacity as a PHRF official is irrelevant to the issues. You might also want to look at Rule 3, which provides that competitors will abide by and accept the rules, which it sounds like the offender was not willing to do.

 

It is NOT proper to pursue matters of this kind in a public forum such as Sailing Anarchy. Not only is this an inappropriate way to pursue the matter, it suggests that you would prefer to complain in public, rather than pursue the matter in a appropriate forum, and it could lead to a lawsuit against you for defamation or libel. If you want to find out more, go to the SA thread regarding the editor's dispute with ##########.

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I sat on a protest recently where an on water incident lead to the offending yacht abusing the other crew in a totally offensive manner.

The full incident and language was noted on the protest form.

The offending yacht was reasonable enough to send an apology to the club and other skipper prior to the hearing.

We proceeded with the hearing and found the offending yacht had breached the RRS’s and awarded them a DSQ.

The matter of the language was referred to the Chairman of the Protest Committee.

With due consideration of the apology, the Chair sent a formal warning to the skipper advising this was his final warning in relation to this type of behavior.

It was deemed that a S69 hearing was not appropriate on this occasion.

Do not take S69 hearings lightly. The process following a guilty verdict and a penalty being applied is set out in the RRS.

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I sat on a protest recently where an on water incident lead to the offending yacht abusing the other crew in a totally offensive manner.

The full incident and language was noted on the protest form.

The offending yacht was reasonable enough to send an apology to the club and other skipper prior to the hearing.

We proceeded with the hearing and found the offending yacht had breached the RRS’s and awarded them a DSQ.

The matter of the language was referred to the Chairman of the Protest Committee.

With due consideration of the apology, the Chair sent a formal warning to the skipper advising this was his final warning in relation to this type of behavior.

It was deemed that a S69 hearing was not appropriate on this occasion.

Do not take S69 hearings lightly. The process following a guilty verdict and a penalty being applied is set out in the RRS.

Very sensible application of the Rule.

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

 

 

Last time such a thing happened to me was nearly 30 years ago. It had nothing to do with sailing.

 

I asked the guy to either take a swing or shut his fucking mouth and stared at him until he walked away..

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

However, you must understand, I have always been somewhat of an un controlled asshole hothead and you can bet your ass my Mother would have been totally and rightfully pissed about that reaction of mine.

I am much older now and today would probably only use verbal indecency to respond.

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

But the question here is about your bullshit weenie squirm job to use a protest room to avoid playing the game of sailing properly.

 

Why the fuck did you fail to drop out??

 

You cut in front and thought maybe possibly you may have completed your tack outside the three boat length circle.

 

 

The starboard boat thought you were too damn close and rather than find out for certain complete with a visit to a repair shop, turned to avoid.

 

Then some other fuckwits who weren't even holding the helm on the starboard boat when you stuffed your toy in its path decided the skipper of the starboard boat wasn't playing recklessly enough for their satisfaction.

 

And you wonder why the guy was pissed and decided to tell you and anyone within earshot about it??

 

 

Sailboat racing, especially the local pickle dish chase in which you were engaging, is a game among players of various skills and competitive enthusiasm.

 

When you approach another boat you MUST understand the person at the helm may or may net be very good at boat handling. You may not tack closer in front of that sailor than that sailor's comfort zone will tolerate.

 

If you tack too closely for that other sailor you have options:

 

1. Do turns and apologize.. Something you allege you sometimes do.

 

2. Decide to get witnesses and a jury to officially tell the folks on the other boat, "You incompetent fuckers do not play this game agressively enough>"

 

One of those choices is sportsmanlike. The other chioce is what assholes do to their soon to be former playmates.

 

You chose to make an ass of the other sailors. You chose to get an official ruling in print that those other guys were just wrong about feeling a need to turn.

 

you hummiliated them.

 

Why the fuck do you think it is alright not to be a friend and fellow sportsman?

 

Why did you act in a manner that may cause your fleet to lose a team of sailors??

 

Why the fuck did you take your attempt to humiliate this guy from the water, to the room, and now to the fucking internet?

 

Are you always an asshole like this or just since you failed to do your turns at that mark and realized your precious fifth place Late summer series PHRF \D Minus class pickle dish might go to somebody else??

 

You had to do some heartfelt consideration when the other boat flew a flag.

 

 

Pickle dish?

 

...friend?

 

..pickle dish?

 

...playmate?

 

...pickle dish?

 

...be a sport?

 

Yeah , you got the pickle dish.

 

Way to go!!!

 

Put it on display to show off to your friends look at while you sit alone at home by yourself.

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We proceeded with the hearing and found the offending yacht had breached the RRS's and awarded them a DSQ.

Before commenting any further, what was the exact wording of the PT decision to award DSQ to offending boat? Based on what Rule?

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

 

 

Last time such a thing happened to me was nearly 30 years ago. It had nothing to do with sailing.

 

I asked the guy to either take a swing or shut his fucking mouth and stared at him until he walked away..

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

However, you must understand, I have always been somewhat of an un controlled asshole hothead and you can bet your ass my Mother would have been totally and rightfully pissed about that reaction of mine.

I am much older now and today would probably only use verbal indecency to respond.

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

But the question here is about your bullshit weenie squirm job to use a protest room to avoid playing the game of sailing properly.

 

Why the fuck did you fail to drop out??

 

You cut in front and thought maybe possibly you may have completed your tack outside the three boat length circle.

 

 

The starboard boat thought you were too damn close and rather than find out for certain complete with a visit to a repair shop, turned to avoid.

 

Then some other fuckwits who weren't even holding the helm on the starboard boat when you stuffed your toy in its path decided the skipper of the starboard boat wasn't playing recklessly enough for their satisfaction.

 

And you wonder why the guy was pissed and decided to tell you and anyone within earshot about it??

 

 

Sailboat racing, especially the local pickle dish chase in which you were engaging, is a game among players of various skills and competitive enthusiasm.

 

When you approach another boat you MUST understand the person at the helm may or may net be very good at boat handling. You may not tack closer in front of that sailor than that sailor's comfort zone will tolerate.

 

If you tack too closely for that other sailor you have options:

 

1. Do turns and apologize.. Something you allege you sometimes do.

 

2. Decide to get witnesses and a jury to officially tell the folks on the other boat, "You incompetent fuckers do not play this game agressively enough>"

 

One of those choices is sportsmanlike. The other chioce is what assholes do to their soon to be former playmates.

 

You chose to make an ass of the other sailors. You chose to get an official ruling in print that those other guys were just wrong about feeling a need to turn.

 

you hummiliated them.

 

Why the fuck do you think it is alright not to be a friend and fellow sportsman?

 

Why did you act in a manner that may cause your fleet to lose a team of sailors??

 

Why the fuck did you take your attempt to humiliate this guy from the water, to the room, and now to the fucking internet?

 

Are you always an asshole like this or just since you failed to do your turns at that mark and realized your precious fifth place Late summer series PHRF \D Minus class pickle dish might go to somebody else??

 

You had to do some heartfelt consideration when the other boat flew a flag.

 

 

Pickle dish?

 

...friend?

 

..pickle dish?

 

...playmate?

 

...pickle dish?

 

...be a sport?

 

Yeah , you got the pickle dish.

 

Way to go!!!

 

Put it on display to show off to your friends look at while you sit alone at home by yourself.

 

+1 Awesome rant!

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Fred, I think this is a breakthrough moment for you!

 

This is the best rant I have seen in a long, long time.

 

Dare I say it? It rivals LR.

 

Perhaps it lacks some of the poetic flow of Lesbian Robot, but damn, content wise it is SUPERB!

 

Front page material (if it won't generate a lawsuit, of course)

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Does behavior such as this occur in your sailing area? If so, how do you handle it?

 

 

 

Last time such a thing happened to me was nearly 30 years ago. It had nothing to do with sailing.

 

I asked the guy to either take a swing or shut his fucking mouth and stared at him until he walked away..

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

However, you must understand, I have always been somewhat of an un controlled asshole hothead and you can bet your ass my Mother would have been totally and rightfully pissed about that reaction of mine.

I am much older now and today would probably only use verbal indecency to respond.

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

But the question here is about your bullshit weenie squirm job to use a protest room to avoid playing the game of sailing properly.

 

Why the fuck did you fail to drop out??

 

You cut in front and thought maybe possibly you may have completed your tack outside the three boat length circle.

 

 

The starboard boat thought you were too damn close and rather than find out for certain complete with a visit to a repair shop, turned to avoid.

 

Then some other fuckwits who weren't even holding the helm on the starboard boat when you stuffed your toy in its path decided the skipper of the starboard boat wasn't playing recklessly enough for their satisfaction.

 

And you wonder why the guy was pissed and decided to tell you and anyone within earshot about it??

 

 

Sailboat racing, especially the local pickle dish chase in which you were engaging, is a game among players of various skills and competitive enthusiasm.

 

When you approach another boat you MUST understand the person at the helm may or may net be very good at boat handling. You may not tack closer in front of that sailor than that sailor's comfort zone will tolerate.

 

If you tack too closely for that other sailor you have options:

 

1. Do turns and apologize.. Something you allege you sometimes do.

 

2. Decide to get witnesses and a jury to officially tell the folks on the other boat, "You incompetent fuckers do not play this game agressively enough>"

 

One of those choices is sportsmanlike. The other chioce is what assholes do to their soon to be former playmates.

 

You chose to make an ass of the other sailors. You chose to get an official ruling in print that those other guys were just wrong about feeling a need to turn.

 

you hummiliated them.

 

Why the fuck do you think it is alright not to be a friend and fellow sportsman?

 

Why did you act in a manner that may cause your fleet to lose a team of sailors??

 

Why the fuck did you take your attempt to humiliate this guy from the water, to the room, and now to the fucking internet?

 

Are you always an asshole like this or just since you failed to do your turns at that mark and realized your precious fifth place Late summer series PHRF \D Minus class pickle dish might go to somebody else??

 

You had to do some heartfelt consideration when the other boat flew a flag.

 

 

Pickle dish?

 

...friend?

 

..pickle dish?

 

...playmate?

 

...pickle dish?

 

...be a sport?

 

Yeah , you got the pickle dish.

 

Way to go!!!

 

Put it on display to show off to your friends look at while you sit alone at home by yourself.

 

+1

 

That was AWESOME

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Protest situation - I was on port approaching the windward mark, and tried to tack on Mr. Kellenr's lee bow as his boat approached on starboard. Not certain, but pretty sure we were outside the 3 boat length circle. Mr. Kellner thought I tacked too close, forcing him to head up to avoid a collision. The Protest Committee ruled in my favor. And two of three boats that witnessed the incident also supported my version of events - that I gave Mr. Kellner's boat (Hey Jude) sufficient room, so that by the time he had to head up (if he did) we had already completed our tack. Not too exciting really, but like a lot of rules situations there were some judgement calls involved.

 

Gouv may have summed up very well the alternative perspective of how to view the original event.

 

Even your own reporting of the incident leads room for interpretation/question. First, you weren't certain as to your position with respect to the mark. Second, only two of three witnesses supported your version of the encounter. None of that is surprising as we don't race with tape measures or with omniscient eyesight on incidents. Everything is seen from one's own perspective and that perspective is naturally colored by what one hopes they are doing correctly. As the port boat the onus was on you to get it correct when the boats met. Even though the protest committee ruled in your favor, there appears to have been some question in your mind as to who may have been right and who may have been wrong. So it was a questionable situation concerning rights in the first place and (contrary to the way you indicate you have played the game for 25 years) you pushed the envelope. Obviously everyone involved didn't see it the same way you did and according to you Mr. Kellner significantly over reacted. That may be true. But this is how you have chosen to attempt to pursue the issue? Something just doesn't smell like Febreeze here. Could there have been some long standing grudge regarding a three second rating change somewhere in your past or some such other equally outrageously grievous situation that hardened your heart? I know that in his role as a PHRF handicapper (and head of LE-PHRF) that he has had to make decisions that have caused people to consider themselves put upon unfairly. That's one of the hazards that comes with the role of serving your fellow sailboat racing constituents. Mr. Kellner served that role for many years and undoubtedly hasn't received the appropriate thanks for the correct decisions that were made over that time. Whatever the ultimate resolution of this issue, be it a Rule 69 decision or whatever, I hope that real justice is served and not the resolution of a grudge.

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The vast majority of these types of situations (which are actually quite rare) do end up in a RRS69 hearing. No doubt about it AJ Oliver has his position which he stated publicly. No one knows what the other guys position is. It is rare that the two sides ever agree, which means the other guys story will be different.

 

But lets say there is enough evidence that something happened. Commonly what the judges do is simply give a "stern warning" to the aggressor and let them know that this is just a sailboat race, no different than playing a game of tiddlywinks or cards. You win some, you lose some. Laugh it off each time and enjoy the ride.

 

Commonly the judges will share this with one another, so that a second act of aggression is one that will get a much larger penalty.

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Last week it was the J35 NA sail measurement fiasco in North Cape.

 

Now drama in Sandusky.

 

This infection is moving up the Lake Erie coast. Hope sailing season ends before it reaches

this end of the lake.

 

and Gouv should take mr. cleans' place, no question!

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My intent in posting about this sordid mess is to call Mr. Kellner out in public, while taking full responsibility for what I write, so that he does not do it again. (I did give him every opportunity to resolve the issue quietly.) Perhaps if we all call out examples of poor sportsmanship, it will diminish. That is the idea here.

 

To repeat - that was the first time I have ever been protested. I did not take anyone into the room - Mr. Kellner did. During the protest I did not testify to anything that I was not sure about. In the room, I said I THOUGHT I gave room. I did not express absolute certainty because that would not have been the truth.

 

Are you folks really able to be dead certain as to whether or not you tack too close? Come on, you're turning the boat, watching the mark, looking behind you, watching the sails fill, and encouraging the crew all at the same time. I'm pretty sure I tacked both below and in front of Mr. Kellner's boat - but am I TOTALLY certain? Nope, and neither can you be in such situations. (First thing I do in those situations is ask my crew what they saw - I tend to believe them. Do I automatically believe the skipper of the other boat? No.)

 

Interestingly, every one of the five boats that witnessed the event saw things differently. PC people tell me that is pretty common.

 

Mr. Kellner was fine until AFTER he lost the protest - then he freaked out (after promising in the hearing room to accept whatever decision was made). To me, and I hope to you, Mr. Kellner's threat to ram our boat is not acceptable.

 

I hope that Mr. Kellner responds. He has every right to do so.

 

"Gouvernail", why don't you Man (or Woman) Up, and sign your name when you bash someone? It's easy to spout off when you cannot be held acountable for what you write. I'll be happy to give you a polite response after you crawl out from under the rock of anonymity.

 

 

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My intent in posting about this sordid mess is to call Mr. Kellner out in public, while taking full responsibility for what I write, so that he does not do it again. (I did give him every opportunity to resolve the issue quietly.) Perhaps if we all call out examples of poor sportsmanship, it will diminish. That is the idea here.

 

To repeat - that was the first time I have ever been protested. I did not take anyone into the room - Mr. Kellner did. During the protest I did not testify to anything that I was not sure about. In the room, I said I THOUGHT I gave room. I did not express absolute certainty because that would not have been the truth.

 

Are you folks really able to be dead certain as to whether or not you tack too close? Come on, you're turning the boat, watching the mark, looking behind you, watching the sails fill, and encouraging the crew all at the same time. I'm pretty sure I tacked both below and in front of Mr. Kellner's boat - but am I TOTALLY certain? Nope, and neither can you be in such situations. (First thing I do in those situations is ask my crew what they saw - I tend to believe them. Do I automatically believe the skipper of the other boat? No.)

 

Interestingly, every one of the five boats that witnessed the event saw things differently. PC people tell me that is pretty common.

 

Mr. Kellner was fine until AFTER he lost the protest - then he freaked out (after promising in the hearing room to accept whatever decision was made). To me, and I hope to you, Mr. Kellner's threat to ram our boat is not acceptable.

 

I hope that Mr. Kellner responds. He has every right to do so.

 

"Gouvernail", why don't you Man (or Woman) Up, and sign your name when you bash someone? It's easy to spout off when you cannot be held acountable for what you write. I'll be happy to give you a polite response after you crawl out from under the rock of anonymity.

 

 

 

If I am not sure if I had adequate room, and the other skipper tells me I fouled him, I do my turns. Good luck with calling out Gouv, you ought to do some research before you start calling people out. I don't get the sense this is going to work out for you the way you thought it would.

 

Edited to add: Would still be nice to hear from the other 5 witnesses not related to you who witnessed the alleged outburst.

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What, am I the only one that thought Fred's rant was an epoxy fueled bunch of cock and bull?

 

Nope, you're not alone

 

BV

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AJ you are loosing the battle of public opinion here.

 

A little SA Primer here for you buddy, If you are going to post on SA I suggest you put on your flame retardant suit, man up and take the lumps/advice that has been handed out to you. Kind of like the alleged aggressor's agreement to abide by the Committee's ruling, once you post it you have to accept what comes out.

 

You are starting to get "pushy" yourself... Ooo maybe this is why he allegedly pushed you?

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My intent in posting about this sordid mess is to call Mr. Kellner out in public...

<snip>

 

Mr. Oliver,

 

Public forums, like SA, are not the right place to discuss such matters.

 

Procedures how to deal with this kind of incidents are set in the Racing Rules of Sailing!

 

Please, see PART 1 - FUNDAMENTAL RULES, ->3. ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES.

 

You already had my advice - write report to your National Authority and be done with it.

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"Gouvernail", why don't you Man (or Woman) Up, and sign your name when you bash someone? It's easy to spout off when you cannot be held acountable for what you write. I'll be happy to give you a polite response after you crawl out from under the rock of anonymity.

 

Everyone here knows exactly who the Fred is and is anything but anonymous. But I'll let him give you the honer.

 

You really failed to understand anything he had to say!! :(

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"Gouvernail", why don't you Man (or Woman) Up, and sign your name when you bash someone? It's easy to spout off when you cannot be held acountable for what you write. I'll be happy to give you a polite response after you crawl out from under the rock of anonymity.

 

Everyone here knows exactly who the Fred is and is anything but anonymous. But I'll let him give you the honer.

 

You really failed to understand anything he had to say!! :(

 

He's like Stevie Wonder, looking at wallpaper samples.....

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wow...so much potential here...and what a f-ing let down...

 

 

dude, get over it...the guy was pissed off he lost......did he punch out your wife or kid? if not, just move on and be happy you got away with the win...i'm sure he's already proven to the world many times over that he is a hothead....

 

in case you haven't heard, the world isn't perfect...

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I have to say I am happy I don't race against some of you guys. Whatever happened on the course & subsequently in the protest room is NO justification for violence or threats of violence & threats to ram another boat.

 

I have been in the situation where I lost a protest thru opposition lying in the room. You just HAVE to walk away.

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I have to say I am happy I don't race against some of you guys. Whatever happened on the course & subsequently in the protest room is NO justification for violence or threats of violence & threats to ram another boat.

 

I have been in the situation where I lost a protest thru opposition lying in the room. You just HAVE to walk away.

 

So far we only have one side of the story. On top of that, I question the motives of someone who posts on other boards and then comes over here looking for revenge on someone for not saying sorry. That is why I would like to hear from the other people who witnessed the alleged violence.

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And sometimes you just have to take things at face value.

 

I find nothing outrageous or unbelievable in what Arnold has said. I don't have an issue with him posting it either, too often these things get swept under the mat, and this forum has helped a huge number of people resolve issues.

 

And then there was the Andrews 70 :lol:

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I question the motives of someone who posts on other boards and then comes over here looking for revenge on someone for not saying sorry.

 

Other boards??? Is there more to this story that you (or the OP) would like to share?

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I'd start fuckin with the dude in every race, tack em, luff em, fart upwind of em. Then after races, say, "Nice job bro!" act like he's yo homey, buy him a foty, hit on his ol lady.

This pretty much sounds like the right way to go.

 

And remember, holding grudges is a chump's choice. Holding a grudge is like taking poison then waiting for the other guy to die.

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I question the motives of someone who posts on other boards and then comes over here looking for revenge on someone for not saying sorry.

 

Other boards??? Is there more to this story that you (or the OP) would like to share?

 

No, nothing that interesting. Just googled his boat name to see if there were results posted for the race or series in question and noticed that he seems to have accounts on a few other sailing message boards, but chose to create a new account here to post the allegations. I was not there and don't know anything more than what is in this thread about the event. The way he described it may be the way things actually went down, although I suspect that if that was the case he would have had enough people supporting him that he would not feel the need to come onto a message board, which he had been avoiding up until now, looking for people to tell him he is right. Of course that could be cleared up quickly if the 5 witnesses that were not his family would come forward and tell their version of what happened.

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I'd start fuckin with the dude in every race, tack em, luff em, fart upwind of em. Then after races, say, "Nice job bro!" act like he's yo homey, buy him a foty, hit on his ol lady.

 

KB

 

Crump..... tell your brother John he left his auto login on and quit talking shit!! :P

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If you had left with the situation outside the room you could have walked away feeling aggrieved but at least righteous and the "bigger man". Stirring shit on here may have the effect of dragging yourself down to his level. If you were prepared to do that you could done so much quicker by by laying him down in the car park ( parking lot ).

 

That said..... From his perspective, If you were the starboard boat ( making an assumption of sym boats and windward mark ) unless you had to make a huge course change, you're probably in a position to pull off a better hoist, most of the time you have a decent chance to roll the offending boat either before or just after the rounding, not much point in getting upset if your about to blow right by.

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We proceeded with the hearing and found the offending yacht had breached the RRS's and awarded them a DSQ.

Before commenting any further, what was the exact wording of the PT decision to award DSQ to offending boat? Based on what Rule?

The protest was about a mark rounding incident while A was taking a one turn penality for touching the mark.

 

Conclusion

While A was taking a penalty, A failed to keep clear of B, which boat was not taking a penalty, thereby breaching RRS 21.2.

 

The language was treated as a seperate matter. As noted in my post.

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wow...so much potential here...and what a f-ing let down...

 

 

 

No kidding....big let down.

 

I do find it amusing that when the OP uses <gasp> real world names and actual locations, not ambiguous nonsense, that people jump ugly and tell him that SA is no place for it. Classic...

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I was not there and don't know anything more than what is in this thread about the event. The way he described it may be the way things actually went down, although I suspect that if that was the case he would have had enough people supporting him that he would not feel the need to come onto a message board, which he had been avoiding up until now, looking for people to tell him he is right. Of course that could be cleared up quickly if the 5 witnesses that were not his family would come forward and tell their version of what happened.

 

I wasn't there either and so don't know anything more than what I have either read here or have heard (and in both of those situations the "facts" are undoubtedly colored by the perspective of the observer) but in speaking to one person who did happen to be present it sounds like events were not exactly as presented by the original poster. However whether any of the observers of these matters choose to publicly come forward is up to them.

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