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Outbound 46


ronbo

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I saw a new, beautifully designed Outbound 46 on the hard and noticed the prop shaft was angled to the port several degrees. The owner complains of the boat pulling to the left under power. I heard of this being a characteristic since hull #1 was built 10 years ago. Also, the prop shaft is angled down sharply (maybe 40 degrees) as it exits the hull.

It doesn't appear to be an overly efficient power setup.

 

Was this dictated by interior design constraints?

 

Ronbo

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Ronbo:

Angling the shaft off to one side is an old trick and in some boats it's done so the shaft can be pulled without removing the rudder or so the shaft will clear the skeg.

40 degrees down sounds a bit odd. Some gearboxes have a 7 degree down angle but it's best to keep most engines as flat as possible and certainly not angled past 12 degrees. Engine specs usually give a max down angle for the specific engine. Having no down angle is one advantage of a saildrive. Fitting the engine into the boat while not compromising the layout is always a challenge.

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Thanks Bob, I forgot the trick of offset to drop the rudder.

If the owner isn't overreacting (remember it's a new boat) with "pulls hard to the left" wouldn't this setup be terribly inefficient to long term motoring?

 

Could a trim tab help or would this be opening a new can of worms?

 

If I can be allowed to blow a little smoke, I heard you had a hand in the Outbound's deck redesign. Beautiful, not a bad line anywhere.

 

Ronbo

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Ronbo:

Not good for the boat to pull to the left. Having the shaft angled to port can't help. Think of an outboard motor.

A trim tab could work but it would add drag when you are sailing and probably make the rudder feel a bit weird. Lots of worms I think.

 

Thanks for the kind words on the new deck. It was a challenge. I didn't want to go down as the guy who mucked up the Outbound.

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I saw a new, beautifully designed Outbound 46 on the hard and noticed the prop shaft was angled to the port several degrees. The owner complains of the boat pulling to the left under power. I heard of this being a characteristic since hull #1 was built 10 years ago. Also, the prop shaft is angled down sharply (maybe 40 degrees) as it exits the hull.

 

hmmm . . . I just delivered an outbound 46 to the Caribbean. It motored quite well. We did some maneuvering around tight docks both in Norfolk and in Virgin Gorda and I did not notice any unusual left pull. The helm was centered when going forward, and there was the normal and expected amount of prop walk when starting to reverse.

 

I just looked at the boat drawings and it looks to me like the shaft angle is about 11 degrees, not 40!

 

post-8534-071082700 1321641320_thumb.jpg

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I really likes the Outbound 46.

 

+1

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but for some reason, the Outbound line really has a 'Modern Perry' look to it. Whatever that might be, i'm not sure. Maybe the port treatment. Transome rake. not sure. Anyone else see that?

 

Very handsome boats.

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Not only handsome, but alot of bang for the buck. Excellent tankage and a long list of standard equipment. I love the liferaft stowage box under the helm seat. Perfect place for it. I believe a double headsail rig is also standard.

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Last fall 2010, I had a chance to crew aboard an Outbound 44 from Newport to St. Maarten. We logged 1600 miles and made destination in 9 days non-stop.. Very nice boat and she sails like a dream. Fast and comfortable. I especially like her clean decks, line layout, and secure, seagoing galley.Here's a shot of us running in the trades: Passage to the Caribbean

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Estar,

 

I looked at the Outbound again. You're right, it's not 40 degrees but It doesn't look like 12 either. In fact, the rudder is a different profile from the drawing.

I'll send a picture when I figure out how.

 

The shaft isn't angled to port but offset to port by about 3", which, as BP said, is sometimes used to enable pulling a shaft without dropping the rudder.

 

The owner installed a Gori folding prop which may, or may not, be a factor.

 

Ronbo

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I can take no credit for this design. My changes to the deck are not reflected in that drawing. When I proposed the deck changes for the raised salon version I tried to do what Carl would have done.

It's a great looking boat. Carl was a very good designer.

 

As for the shaft angle, I'd buy 11 degrees. That is not unusual. My feeling is that if people like Evans have operated the boat without any steering iisues then it has to be something specific to this particular boat.

When someone calls me and says "my Dog Barf 35 has terrible weather helm." I usually tell them that this is the firstb time I have heard this complaint and considering that there are v200 Dog Barf 35's out there I find it odd that after all this time you are having this problem." Then I try, in my typical gentle and diplomatic style, to tell them that it must be the way they are sailing the boat. After one such call I asked the owner, "Have you tried adjusting the traveler?" He said, "Yes, I have it as far to weather as possible." So, it's often not the boat's fault.

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in my typical gentle and diplomatic style, . . .

 

 

Bob, I can just imagine that . . . probably very similar to my own very gentle and diplomatic style . . . do you typically start with a chainsaw or just go straight to nuclear weapons :)

 

Below is (I believe) the new Perry deck (and looks like a hard dodger).

 

post-8534-052738100 1321660307_thumb.jpg

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Evans:

I have yet to find a diplomatic way to tell and owner he can't sail for shit.

I could tell you some stories.

 

One owner passed the word that he wanted to punch me in the nose for the way his boat rolled downwind.

So I went down to his boat. "I hear you want to pounch me in the nose." He started backpeddling so fast I'm surprised he didn't give himself whiplash.

I asked him how he set his sails for DDW. He explained how he poled his yankee out on the same side as the mainsail and set the staysail to weather.

I explained using my most rational and calm manner that he had the two big sails on the same side of the boat "So what do you expect. You idiot."

 

Want more?

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Evans:

I have yet to find a diplomatic way to tell and owner he can't sail for shit.

. . .

 

 

A few years ago I was (very casually) talking with Mr Irens about designing a tri. I ask about passage speed. He said "this will be able to do 400 mile days even if you don't know what you are doing on a multihull . . .and Evans it sounds like you don't ".

 

I actually tremendously appreciated that honesty. Much more useful that the typical fawning over a potential client. It did however make me re-evaluate the project.

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I have yet to find a diplomatic way to tell and owner he can't sail for shit.

I could tell you some stories.

 

 

Many years ago I worked in a (very good) bicycle shop while I was going to school. Behind the counter near the register hung a beautiful BROOKS saddle - a handmade work of art for the serious rider, weighing just a few ounces and requiring a backside well-conditioned to a seat about the size of a beer bottle.

 

Kinda flabby customer is in picking up his very-average bike and sees the saddle, "How much is that ? "

 

"Eighty bucks - it's the most expensive saddle in the store and weighs less than a pencil."

 

"What the heck difference would THAT make ?"

 

(owner of the store is listening and steps up)

 

" For you, none whatsoever. " - completely deadpan, no explanation offered.

 

- I nearly choked keeping from laughing.

 

 

btw, I've always liked the Outbounds ( you know why - Go Carl !) and we have some club members that just began an extended cruise on thiers last year - a very nice boat indeed. I like the new house too - good work, Bob.

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http://by171w.bay171...ht=160&size=Att

 

 

 

Photo (maybe too small) of Outbound 46 showing rudder and shaft in question.

 

1. Find photo

2. Right-click mouse on photo and scroll down.

3. Left-click "copy image location"

4. Hit "Reply" button back here

5. Click on the little square thing that looks like a tiny TV

6. When it brings up the little dialogue box, right-click mouse and hit "Paste"

7. Have another drink.

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Your going to have to give us your Hotmail username and password for that link to be any good to us.

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Ronbo,

 

I was just copied on an e-mail from Phil Lambert (who builds the Outbounds). He saw this thread (i think Bob pointed him at it).

 

He said a couple things:

 

1. As we all figured, the shaft is slightly offset to ease shaft removal without having to drop the rudder.

 

2. This particular Outbound does have a non-standard rudder

 

3. He thinks the Gori is stuck in "Overdrive, and thinks/hopes that is the source of the pulling to port. Apparently he is all set to check it out in the spring.

Estar,

 

I looked at the Outbound again. You're right, it's not 40 degrees but It doesn't look like 12 either. In fact, the rudder is a different profile from the drawing.

I'll send a picture when I figure out how.

 

The shaft isn't angled to port but offset to port by about 3", which, as BP said, is sometimes used to enable pulling a shaft without dropping the rudder.

 

The owner installed a Gori folding prop which may, or may not, be a factor.

 

Ronbo

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[hijack]

When I was a kid a friend of my dad's built a 32ft yacht. He was a high school science teacher, the story follows:

 

Mmm , I'm tall, Lets add a little freboard, Plans called for cut, sawn and glued (actually, I'm not sure of this detail) Mmm, doesn't seem that strong, let's laminate the frames up. After building the hull with twice the stringers the plan called for he decided that the frames looked to far apart - easy fix, let's build more laminated frames in between the existing ones. Time to build the deck and coach roof, No sawn frames here either, laminated deck beams that curved up from the side deck to the coach roof and back down to the other side, Everything was built for its strength. The Keels (bilge keeler) were made from steel and had external flanges so the keel bolts would be spaced further apart being naturally stronger, the chain plates were bolted to the hull as the plans said but he built steel plates the bridged the loads to the frames, just to be sure.

 

You get the picture.

 

When it came time to drill a big hole in the backbone to install the prop-shaft I just don't think he could do it so he of-set the shaft, But he thought about the prop rotation and as a result the boat tracked almost perfectly straight while steaming!

 

When it came time to paint the anitfoul before launching he decided to make it a little higher to allow for the extra weight he might have added during construction, turned out the boat floated almost exactly on the original waterline.

 

[/hijack]

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Gori's have overdrive? Cool! How do I get mine to do that?

 

(the stops may be buggered)

 

BV

Instead of engaging forward from coasting with the prop feathered, you shift to forward while the prop is engaged in reverse, preventing the prop from "moving through" from reverse pitch to feathered to forward pitch. You go forward with the reverse pitch which is steeper.

 

Lesson: make sure you engage forward from the prop being feathered, not immediately from reverse, or the pitch will be steeper than designed. Unless you want that.

 

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Bob,

 

If all those so called "idiots" spent all their time perfecting their sailing technique, and not out working their asses off to make enough money to buy your designs, you would have been out of work a long long time ago. Be thankful for all the idiots. You mostly have designed cruising boats, not grand prix racing boats, so what do you expect from your main clientele? You don't seem to be immune to sticking your foot in your mouth, and saying stupid shit, so take it easy on others who do the same.

 

 

 

Evans:

I have yet to find a diplomatic way to tell and owner he can't sail for shit.

I could tell you some stories.

 

One owner passed the word that he wanted to punch me in the nose for the way his boat rolled downwind.

So I went down to his boat. "I hear you want to pounch me in the nose." He started backpeddling so fast I'm surprised he didn't give himself whiplash.

I asked him how he set his sails for DDW. He explained how he poled his yankee out on the same side as the mainsail and set the staysail to weather.

I explained using my most rational and calm manner that he had the two big sails on the same side of the boat "So what do you expect. You idiot."

 

Want more?

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I really likes the Outbound 46.

 

+1

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but for some reason, the Outbound line really has a 'Modern Perry' look to it. Whatever that might be, i'm not sure. Maybe the port treatment. Transome rake. not sure. Anyone else see that?

 

Very handsome boats.

 

 

ok...that looked stupid. I was thinking 'Passport' yachts. I know. No comparison.

 

post-4721-048165900 1321806233_thumb.jpg

 

and Wayne...don't be a tool

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Posted · Hidden by Dan33, November 20, 2011 - No reason given
Hidden by Dan33, November 20, 2011 - No reason given

Where did this guy come from??

 

Hopefully the same road that brought him here...will take him out of here.

 

(jerk)

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Bob,

 

...not grand prix racing boats, so what do you expect from your main clientele?

 

 

Good point because nobody who owned a Grand Prix boat ever thought throwing money at it would make it faster.

 

Now bugger off asshat.

post-25646-065486000 1321810025_thumb.jpg

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Maybe you guys don't like the way Wayne said it, I didn't think it was all that offensive for Sailing Anarchy, after all, but he has a pretty valid point about us customers & The Pros.

 

I'm under no illusion that I sail as well as someone who sails for a living. Nick and Shawn at the Hinckley dock in Southwest Harbor dock more boats singlehanded in a week than I probably have in my life. Evans has had more seawater through his boots than I'll see in my life.

 

I'm lucky as hell that I spent a lot of time on boats as a kid, but the middle years of my life were spent in the mountains and building a business. I'm guessing that if most of the people here tried to go rock climbing with me, you'd look like idiots. I'd still make sure you didn't die and that you had a great time and went home wanting more. If I didn't like your knots, I'd tie you in myself rather than berate you. Teaching requires patience.

 

The point is, no one is more aware of my shortcomings than me, there is no need to rub my nose in it. You can teach me without throwing in a gratuitous insult. If you do, don't be surprised if I choose to spend my money elsewhere.

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Gori's have overdrive? Cool! How do I get mine to do that?

 

(the stops may be buggered)

 

BV

Instead of engaging forward from coasting with the prop feathered, you shift to forward while the prop is engaged in reverse, preventing the prop from "moving through" from reverse pitch to feathered to forward pitch. You go forward with the reverse pitch which is steeper.

 

Lesson: make sure you engage forward from the prop being feathered, not immediately from reverse, or the pitch will be steeper than designed. Unless you want that.

 

kdh,

 

OK, I get it, interesting. What do you do if you're sitting still or drifting so that there's no water flow to get to the "feathered" mode?? When we're out racing I get the boat going 3 or 4 knots and shift into reverse for 10 seconds or so, then neutral so that the blades will feather. That's a procedure that I realize I picked up when I had a Luke feathering prop and may not make sense for the Gori. I get my hat and go get a manual on my prop.

 

BV

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kdh:

I did not know that. I'm an idiot.

 

Now what do I do when I back out of my tight slip, throw it into neutral then hit forward with a good punch? I'm pretty certain the prop does not have time to feather in that manouver.

Maybe my older Gori does not have that issue.

 

Loser:

Years ago I boght some books by Gaston Rebuffat and I thought I'd try rock climbing. My rule to that point was when it took two hands to hang on I turned back. I was so inept ands scared at one point my friend, my "guide" had to climb back under me and physically move my feet to the next toe hold. He didn't have to tell me I was an idiot. I felt it all over.

 

I don't even know what "gratuitous insults" are. It's pretty hard to live around sailboats and not feel like an idiot a few times. I had better confine my "idiot" stories to my own exploits. I don't want to hurt any feelings.

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kdh:

I did not know that. I'm an idiot.

 

 

Bob, I believe only the Gori 3 blade has the 'overdrive'. I am guessing you have the more common 2 blade?

 

Maybe you guys don't like the way Wayne said it, I didn't think it was all that offensive for Sailing Anarchy.

 

I agree, but it somehow just came out wrong. I don't mind being told I am an idiot by someone the likes of Perry or Irens. They usually mean well and I can always learn to be slightly less idiotic from them.

 

I'm under no illusion that I sail as well as someone who sails for a living. Nick and Shawn at the Hinckley dock in Southwest Harbor dock more boats singlehanded in a week than I probably have in my life. Evans has had more seawater through his boots than I'll see in my life.

 

Sometime when I got over 40, I realized I knew almost nothing about anything, including sailing. Just by coincidence, the owner of the Outbound I was just on asked me where I thought I stood on a 1-10 scale of sailing/offshore competence and I said (With complete honesty) a 3. When we completed our first circumnavigation I thought I was hot shit, but after sailing more and in tougher latitudes and meeting the 'real' pros I have discovered how little I know. I am guessing that development from over confident with 'unknow unkowns' to somewhat more humble with many 'known unknowns' (thanks rummy!) is pretty common.

 

It would have been fun to climb with you when I was younger. I tried it and liked it when I was young, completely self-taught from books, but was never very good.

 

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CL,

I like to think that I'm the first to know when I'm being an idiot, but I'm sure that's not always the case. I've always wanted to try rock climbing. I think it would be fun for you and I and Bob to go together sometime. About Nick and Shawn at the Hinckley dock, I remember when my boat was brand new and I had to dock for the first time after watching those guys. Very clearly, I was an idiot.

 

BV and Bob,

The Gori is still mysterious to me. Maybe I'm an idiot. When I kill the engine and am coasting forward I put the transmission in reverse and I hear a clunk that I've learned to associate with the prop being feathered. I always listen for it sounding different than usual, but it never has. I can't tell when the prop is in overdrive. I think if you put the throttle at maximum and you can't hit maximum rpms that is the best way to know. Bob, it seems like your backing out of the slip followed immediately by forward would be the way to get overdrive. But that would be only for as long as it takes to kill the diesel and go sailing.

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kdh:

So, do you have the three blade Gori?

I do.

 

I have a 3=blade as well. Documentation on the "overdrive" feature is here: Gori-Web-Site

 

The web site is rather disappointing in failing to let me know a lot of the "how to" stuff, like how to go into "overdrive" etc... as well as how get out of it. Bob, it seems that one puts the prop in forward, having been in reverse, and then once you get going a little you put it into neutral, then when you put it into forward again it will be out of overdrive.

 

I found

that is far better than anything on the Gori site, and having watched it a couple of times I realize that I probably have been powering around in the Overdrive position with the prop most of the time.

 

BV

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I found

that is far better than anything on the Gori site, and having watched it a couple of times I realize that I probably have been powering around in the Overdrive position with the prop most of the time.

 

BV

 

Great video!

 

Bob Pistay has been telling me I should go with the Gori three blade for the Sliver Project.

Now I understand why.

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Bob,

 

If all those so called "idiots" spent all their time perfecting their sailing technique, and not out working their asses off to make enough money to buy your designs, you would have been out of work a long long time ago. Be thankful for all the idiots. You mostly have designed cruising boats, not grand prix racing boats, so what do you expect from your main clientele? You don't seem to be immune to sticking your foot in your mouth, and saying stupid shit, so take it easy on others who do the same.

 

 

 

Evans:

I have yet to find a diplomatic way to tell and owner he can't sail for shit.

I could tell you some stories.

 

One owner passed the word that he wanted to punch me in the nose for the way his boat rolled downwind.

So I went down to his boat. "I hear you want to pounch me in the nose." He started backpeddling so fast I'm surprised he didn't give himself whiplash.

I asked him how he set his sails for DDW. He explained how he poled his yankee out on the same side as the mainsail and set the staysail to weather.

I explained using my most rational and calm manner that he had the two big sails on the same side of the boat "So what do you expect. You idiot."

 

Want more?

 

Um, yah, thanks for ruining it Wayne.......

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Bob Pistay has been telling me I should go with the Gori three blade for the Sliver Project.

Now I understand why.

 

Kiwi...the Gori is beautiful, the KIWI works better and is a fraction of the price.

 

The biggest problem with the KIWI is the price. It is so much less that people think they are buying a sub standard product. They are NOT!!

 

Yes the GORI is pretty, but I doubt the fish care.

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once you get going a little you put it into neutral, then when you put it into forward again it will be out of overdrive.

BV, That's the way I've always understood it. Will have to watch the video.

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Bob Pistay has been telling me I should go with the Gori three blade for the Sliver Project.

Now I understand why.

 

Kiwi...the Gori is beautiful, the KIWI works better and is a fraction of the price.

 

The biggest problem with the KIWI is the price. It is so much less that people think they are buying a sub standard product. They are NOT!!

 

Yes the GORI is pretty, but I doubt the fish care.

 

OK, I will check it out.

 

I am not an expert in anything so happy to get good advice here for the project.

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Kim

 

Call John at KIWI...he is an amazing source of information & a nice guy. I wouldn't trade our prop for 3 Gori's and $1000\ (and I like the Gori)

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Kim

 

Call John at KIWI...he is an amazing source of information & a nice guy. I wouldn't trade our prop for 3 Gori's and $1000\ (and I like the Gori)

 

these numbers?

 

Our phone numbers:

 

+1 (310)651-5566 - Fax

+1 (310)591-8010 - Local and international

+1 (877)KIWI USA - Toll Free (USA and Canada)

 

 

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Kim

 

Call John at KIWI...he is an amazing source of information & a nice guy. I wouldn't trade our prop for 3 Gori's and $1000\ (and I like the Gori)

 

Gate, I haven't ever seen a KIWI, but I got the Gori hanging on the end of my prop shaft so.... I guess I'll just keep it. Beau

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All,

 

Today, after getting all my ToDo List done, I cast off the lines and headed out to play with the Gori prop; and to do a little sailing. Two things became obvious immediately. First, that there are two quite definite "modes" and the results are distinctive. Second, it's obvious which one you're in.

 

After backing out of the slip and then popping the engine into forward while still moving astern, I was clearly in Overdrive Mode. The engine would not spin up to high RPM and there was a fair amount of cavitation noises coming from the prop. Once the boat was moving forward at about 2 knots I shifted to neutral, waited for about 5 seconds and then returned to forward. The difference was substantial. The engine spun up to higher revs easily and didn't make the cavitation noises; it also didn't labor as hard.

 

To insure I could repeat all this I got going about 5 knots, shifted into reverse, revved the motor up for about 2 seconds, and then rather quickly shifted into forward. The engine labored harder again and I could hear cavitation. These are the sounds that the prop only makes when near max power in "normal" mode.

 

To answer my own question about how long it takes (and how much forward movement is required) to feather the prop I coasted for various times and various speeds. It seems that at about 2 knots of forward speed the prop feathers in about 2 seconds. It also doesn't seem to be necessary to put it into reverse to get it to feather. At speeds below 2 knots going into the feathered position was rather random. I was judging it being "feathered" by whether or not it made a clunk as I put it into forward, the sound of the blades hitting their stops. At speeds above 2 knots the prop always feathered, which is nice to know. However, when going in reverse it doesn't ever seem to feather while the boat is moving backwards.

 

I did a couple of "speed" runs and in the Overdrive mode my little 18hp engine is clearly over propped. The engine gave all the signs of too much prop. With it in "normal" forward mode it behaved just as expected. Also, in Overdrive at the max RPM I could reach there was more vibration by quite a bit than in "normal" mode.

 

After all this, I put the sails up, put S'agapo on a reach and set about reading a good book. After a couple of hours I gybed around and sailed home again. Otto Von Razmerene did a fine job of steering and I got a lot of reading done. It was a lovely winter light wind day on the California coast.

 

Beau

 

6380307091_5c1834d475_b.jpg

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Thanks for relaying your experiences, Beau. I'm now pretty sure I've never been in overdrive mode, certainly not intentionally. My prop obviously feathers when I kill the engine and put the transmission lever in reverse to stop the shaft from spinning. I go stern-to into my slip, which makes getting out an all-forward affair.

 

Seems like a positive spin has been put an idiosyncrasy. Can you imagine ever using it in overdrive?

 

 

GORI902P.jpg

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Thanks for relaying your experiences, Beau. I'm now pretty sure I've never been in overdrive mode, certainly not intentionally. My prop obviously feathers when I kill the engine and put the transmission lever in reverse to stop the shaft from spinning. I go stern-to into my slip, which makes getting out an all-forward affair.

 

Seems like a positive spin has been put an idiosyncrasy. Can you imagine ever using it in overdrive?

 

 

GORI902P.jpg

 

 

Prop selection is a compromise usually biased to a worst case of getting full power into the water at slow speed (motoring into wind and sea). "Overdrive" increases pitch that can provide more thrust at higher boat speeds such as motoring in calm conditions or motorsailing. In essence, a simple way to get the advantages of a constant speed or self pitching (Autoprop) propellor. A friend with a Gori liked it for motoring down the intercoastal.

 

But you are probably right. I suspect not changing pitch when shifting into forward while backing down is an idiocyncrasy spun as an advantage rather than a design requirement.

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Thanks for relaying your experiences, Beau. I'm now pretty sure I've never been in overdrive mode, certainly not intentionally. My prop obviously feathers when I kill the engine and put the transmission lever in reverse to stop the shaft from spinning. I go stern-to into my slip, which makes getting out an all-forward affair.

 

Seems like a positive spin has been put an idiosyncrasy. Can you imagine ever using it in overdrive?

 

 

GORI902P.jpg

 

kdh,

 

I can easily imagine using this for motor sailing. There are a LOT of trips between Santa Cruz and San Francisco when there are only marginal sailing conditions early in the day due to light wind. In those cases, I'm sure I'll use it to get power to the water without the revs. It probably means the difference between motoring at 4.5 knots, sailing at 2.0 knots, or motor sailing at 6.5 knots.

 

This is in part because I don't really have a cruising boat. Who in their right mind would have an 18 HP main engine in a cruising boat?? But, I plan to do a lot of longer passages in which I'm trying to get to the other end rather quickly. For that having the engine able to continue to apply power to the water without the high revs is a great idea.

 

As to whether the Gori guys are simply re-documenting an idiosyncrasy as a feature, I've no idea how it came about. I know I have certainly "discovered" feature of things I've built that have been useful, and this is useful. So, regardless of the "source" of the discovery I'm glad I have it.

 

BV

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