Seascape 27

[Qingdaosog 35]

5 hours ago, mikkom said:

Don't know how much there is first hand experience with 27SE or new 27. And I can't either claim experience with these two models, but I do own 18.

So, claiming these boats don't go well upwind is maybe slight misconception. They actually do go quite well for their length and point really well. Challenge is that in order to get full potential out one needs to unlearn ways of sailing more traditional boats. For example mainsail trim and also jib trim.

As said, I can only speak from my experience with 18 and I am still learning to sail to my local rating (northern Europe). But I do think it can compete with that rating with more traditional really well sailed boats. Surprisingly I think in low range/drifters I might actually be closest to being competitive.

Kristian naturally is much better placed to comment about performance to various ratings.

And finally those windier downwinds really are so much fun that, I really don't care too much about placements

Hi Mikkom.

Any insights on mainsail and jib trim would be greatly appreciated.! (and anyone else who would like to jump in...)

 

[mikkom 12]

Hi,

Like indicated, I am not any expert and have been just reading how similar type boats/sailplanes are trimmed from various sources. And then done some testing on water.

Twist is important and you really need to get speed first and then pointing. I have found that one really shouldn't close leech on main or jib. Both should have twist in all conditions as per my experience and have telltales streaming all the time at top part of sail. I find that jib sheet is never fully sheeted in (block to block).

And waves naturally make it a bit more challenging and even more important to have twist and playing sheets actively.

And leeway should be avoided (many point high, but have also large leeway). This becomes even more pronounced boat is heeling too much (again better have sheet a bit loose). Could excessive heel and leeway have been problem with 24 @JL92S ?

[JL92S 426]

45 minutes ago, mikkom said:

Hi,

Like indicated, I am not any expert and have been just reading how similar type boats/sailplanes are trimmed from various sources. And then done some testing on water.

Twist is important and you really need to get speed first and then pointing. I have found that one really shouldn't close leech on main or jib. Both should have twist in all conditions as per my experience and have telltales streaming all the time at top part of sail. I find that jib sheet is never fully sheeted in (block to block).

And waves naturally make it a bit more challenging and even more important to have twist and playing sheets actively.

And leeway should be avoided (many point high, but have also large leeway). This becomes even more pronounced boat is heeling too much (again better have sheet a bit loose). Could excessive heel and leeway have been problem with 24 @JL92S ?

I wouldn’t say it heeled much at all and in the river was maybe 8-10kts of wind. I was sort of going from other boats I’ve sailed up the same river, mainly J70s and J80s, both heavier boats. It feel like the S24 gives away some upwind performance to a J70 but made up for it reaching and downwind and the fact it has a useable interior. Very pricey though, I’m not sure what a 27 comes out at either. I remember reading on the 24 thread something about foils being fitted to a seascape, the conclusion was the 24 didn’t have the internal structure to support it but the 27 did, now there lies an interesting subject! 

[Qingdaosog 35]

So my First 27 with aluminium rig and diesel has finally arrived. First impressions are good. i think it looks better in the flesh than in pictures. To me the new coachroof windows are a definite improvement to the style on the First 27SE (Original Seasccape 27). and the interior is very light.  But I don't like what appear to be lower lifelines than on the First 27 SE. That seems illogical for a boat that is being promoted for its safety.

Unfortunately now we have a delay as the commissioning team have been unable to step the mast. It seems the shrouds are not correct. If so I suppose we will have to wait for new ones from Europe.  Why is buying a new sailboat  often a much less satisfying experience than  is romanticised by the industry?

[apophenia 263]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:43 PM, Qingdaosog said:

So my First 27 with aluminium rig and diesel has finally arrived. First impressions are good. i think it looks better in the flesh than in pictures. To me the new coachroof windows are a definite improvement to the style on the First 27SE (Original Seasccape 27). and the interior is very light.  But I don't like what appear to be lower lifelines than on the First 27 SE. That seems illogical for a boat that is being promoted for its safety.

Unfortunately now we have a delay as the commissioning team have been unable to step the mast. It seems the shrouds are not correct. If so I suppose we will have to wait for new ones from Europe.  Why is buying a new sailboat  often a much less satisfying experience than  is romanticised by the industry?

Are the padded locker seats bolted in place or otherwise removable on the First 27?

 

[Qingdaosog 35]

You mean the internal lockers under the seats or the cockpit locker/seats? Both are an integral part of the structure. Neither can be removed 

[apophenia 263]

15 minutes ago, Qingdaosog said:

You mean the internal lockers under the seats or the cockpit locker/seats? Both are an integral part of the structure. Neither can be removed 

The cockpit locker/seats (circled in red). It’s probably good they are glassed in, but it would be nice if you could bolt them onto the SE when in cruise mode.

Either way, both boats seem like a lot of fun.

[Qingdaosog 35]

Hope to finally get mine in the water this week before the May holiday here. Fingers crossed....

[apophenia 263]

Looks like Beneteau is building a configuration tool. If you set the language to "English - EN" in the upper right corner, you can build First SEs and outboard motorboats. If you pick "English (America) - US" then you only get the motorboats. But if you start with English - EN and after selecting the First 27SE you select English (America) - US, you get the US options and prices.

• UK First 27 SE Configurator
• US First 27 SE Configurator

The main difference is that the UK config lets you pick the Performance Configuration ("Ideal for Regattas") for €96,738 (Just under USD120k). I selected everything and came out a bit higher on the US side, but it's possible that things like transportation bags and covers aren't included in the Performance Config, or a la carte selection is just more expensive.

[Qingdaosog 35]

On 4/24/2021 at 11:52 AM, Qingdaosog said:

Hope to finally get mine in the water this week before the May holiday here. Fingers crossed....

Well here we are a month later and still not commissioned. Lots of issues. Seems the boatyard rushed this one out. Always a problem being one of the first but this has been a bit ridiculous.  In no particular order here are the issues up to now. .At least the rig is up now. 

Rig wouldn't fit. (Shrouds measured  wrongly )  Forward and reverse  control coupled wrong way round. Fuel system connected incorrectly  Copious  leaking of propshaft seal. Forgot to fit the zincs..  Toilet broken. Fresh water system not functioning correctly. Waste pipe kinked and had to replaced. Unable to calibrate precision compass probably as its been attached to the aft of the diesel engine bulkhead. .  Saloon Table would not fit. . No specific  details on rigging tensions apart from V1. Seninel alarm will not find the network. Probably because its been placed under a wiring loom 

I am still convinced this is going to be a great boat but what a textbook  example of self destruction by Seascape/ Beneteau.  ..  Can we blame Covid?  Maybe... It certainly hasn't helped.  I hope they can redeem themselves soon. . This was supposed to be a luxury leisure item,

not a source of great stress. 

[Qingdaosog 35]

Just now, Qingdaosog said:

Well here we are a month later and still not commissioned. Lots of issues. Seems the boatyard rushed this one out. Always a problem being one of the first but this has been a bit ridiculous.  In no particular order here are the issues up to now. .At least the rig is up now. 

Rig wouldn't fit. (Shrouds measured  wrongly )  Forward and reverse  control coupled wrong way round. Fuel system connected incorrectly  Copious  leaking of propshaft seal. Forgot to fit the zincs..  Toilet broken. Fresh water system not functioning correctly. Waste pipe kinked and had to replaced. Unable to calibrate precision compass probably as its been attached to the aft of the diesel engine bulkhead. .  Saloon Table would not fit. . No specific  details on rigging tensions apart from V1. Seninel alarm will not find the network. Probably because its been placed under a wiring loom 

I am still convinced this is going to be a great boat but what a textbook  example of self destruction by Seascape/ Beneteau.  ..  Can we blame Covid?  Maybe... It certainly hasn't helped.  I hope they can redeem themselves soon. . This was supposed to be a luxury leisure item,

not a source of great stress. 

I would love to hear of anyone's  experiences on receiving the new First 27. Have I just been unlucky . Any insights to solving the issues?

[Upp3 253]

3 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

I would love to hear of anyone's  experiences on receiving the new First 27. Have I just been unlucky . Any insights to solving the issues?

No frills sailing did a post about just that few weeks back: http://no-frills-sailing.com/launching-seascape-27-beneteau-first-27-se/

[JL92S 426]

Very strange to hear about your case, I used to work for the UK Beneteau agent and a couple of years ago we had an 18 and 24 in stock. The 24 arrived in near perfect condition with everything functioning well and on sea trial the boat was a dream (made me yearn to own one) which is why it surprises me about your 27 although my experience was a pre covid one. I know the supply chains have been messed up a lot recently so I’d hope they haven’t used faulty items to complete a boat. I hope it all sorts itself out

[jacksf 2]

I'm wondering if anyone can share experiences with the First 27 (non SE, though I suspect it is similar) in winds like the San Francisco Bay area?  I'm curious about the need to reef, amount of heel, and how wet it gets. 

I'm wondering if the boat is tame enough for my wife to enjoy and host 2 people (4 total on the boat) for daysailing. 

Thank you for any input! 

[jcf1093 0]

I can't comment exactly on sailing in SF winds but I did recently get a used 27 SE. I haven't sailed on it since I got it shipped to me as the mast was damaged in shipping and, although Seascape told me the new one would be ready in a week on 24 of April, they progressively changed their estimate where now they say I won't have the mast until the fall. Very strange for them to go from 7 days to completion to 6 months but I guess the boat will be dry until then. 

I did get to test sail the boat for a few days before purchase. Upwind the boat certainly heels but sits nicely on the hard chine. Feels very stable and is easily sailed with two people. Mine does not have a roller furling jib but even with the hank on jib it was easy. Downwind, equally stable. Planes with the large spinnaker in 12kts of wind without much heel. With 4 people sailing the boat is relatively trivial. As for reefing, the main can use the first reef around 15kts and second reef closer to 20kts. In heavy wind I've got a furling staysail that makes staying in the cockpit easy. In heavy wind with waves, the cockpit can get wet and the open transom is a nice reminder that it's designed for that kind of weather, but in tamer winds you'll stay dry. 

 

 

[Qingdaosog 35]

6 hours ago, jcf1093 said:

I can't comment exactly on sailing in SF winds but I did recently get a used 27 SE. I haven't sailed on it since I got it shipped to me as the mast was damaged in shipping and, although Seascape told me the new one would be ready in a week on 24 of April, they progressively changed their estimate where now they say I won't have the mast until the fall. Very strange for them to go from 7 days to completion to 6 months but I guess the boat will be dry until then. 

I did get to test sail the boat for a few days before purchase. Upwind the boat certainly heels but sits nicely on the hard chine. Feels very stable and is easily sailed with two people. Mine does not have a roller furling jib but even with the hank on jib it was easy. Downwind, equally stable. Planes with the large spinnaker in 12kts of wind without much heel. With 4 people sailing the boat is relatively trivial. As for reefing, the main can use the first reef around 15kts and second reef closer to 20kts. In heavy wind I've got a furling staysail that makes staying in the cockpit easy. In heavy wind with waves, the cockpit can get wet and the open transom is a nice reminder that it's designed for that kind of weather, but in tamer winds you'll stay dry. 

 

 

Sorry to hear your adventures have been delayed. Must have been major mast damage... I continue to have multiple build issues with my new First 27  that are not yet solved, so sailing has been limited but first impressions are very good. Its stability seems to be excellent. We were caught in un-forecast 22 knots of wind last week lacking the equipment to  reef yet but she coped well. Last Sunday we tried out the code 0 for the first time. Very impressed indeed.

 

[Hitchhiker 1,154]

59 minutes ago, Qingdaosog said:

Sorry to hear your adventures have been delayed. Must have been major mast damage... I continue to have multiple build issues with my new First 27  that are not yet solved, so sailing has been limited but first impressions are very good. Its stability seems to be excellent. We were caught in un-forecast 22 knots of wind last week lacking the equipment to  reef yet but she coped well. Last Sunday we tried out the code 0 for the first time. Very impressed indeed.

 

Seascape 27 is very high on the list of shorthanded machines for me. So have been following this thread.  There is one in my area that may come up for sale soon. Have to do a test sail.

All that said, I am very interested in your interest in Rugby Cricket Football.  Is that a full contact sport that involves hitting with bats, kicking and full contact tackling?  If so, I am in.  

[Qingdaosog 35]

6 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Seascape 27 is very high on the list of shorthanded machines for me. So have been following this thread.  There is one in my area that may come up for sale soon. Have to do a test sail.

All that said, I am very interested in your interest in Rugby Cricket Football.  Is that a full contact sport that involves hitting with bats, kicking and full contact tackling?  If so, I am in.  

Good point. Punctuation and grammar were never my strong point.. Come to think of it not sure I have any strong points... That's why I succeed working in China. I can blame any of my cock-ups on miscommunication not incompetence.

Anyway, seriously if you can find a well sorted Seascape 27 I think you will find it a great boat for shorthanded sailing. It's unfortunate that it seems that mine was built late on Friday afternoon when everyone was in a rush to get home.

[jerseyguy 1,712]

6 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

Good point. Punctuation and grammar were never my strong point.. Come to think of it not sure I have any strong points... That's why I succeed working in China. I can blame any of my cock-ups on miscommunication not incompetence.

Anyway, seriously if you can find a well sorted Seascape 27 I think you will find it a great boat for shorthanded sailing. It's unfortunate that it seems that mine was built late on Friday afternoon when everyone was in a rush to get home.

And finished on a Monday when everyone was hung over from the weekend 

[jcf1093 0]

14 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

Sorry to hear your adventures have been delayed. Must have been major mast damage... I continue to have multiple build issues with my new First 27  that are not yet solved, so sailing has been limited but first impressions are very good. Its stability seems to be excellent. We were caught in un-forecast 22 knots of wind last week lacking the equipment to  reef yet but she coped well. Last Sunday we tried out the code 0 for the first time. Very impressed indeed.

 

Sorry to hear about your build issues as well. I guess that's the risk also of getting an early hull number of a new boat. The mast was seemingly crushed by the yard that prepared the shipment. The only thing that is really disappointing is seascape went from telling me the mast would be ready about 7 days after it was paid for in April to telling me it won't be done for 4 more months. I can only imagine they were either lying or allocated my mast to another boat. Crazy stuff. 

All that aside the build quality of the hull itself and the sailing experience are second to none in the class I think. They just need to figure out their customer service. 

[PurpleOnion 300]

On 6/16/2021 at 1:05 PM, jcf1093 said:

Sorry to hear about your build issues as well. I guess that's the risk also of getting an early hull number of a new boat. The mast was seemingly crushed by the yard that prepared the shipment. The only thing that is really disappointing is seascape went from telling me the mast would be ready about 7 days after it was paid for in April to telling me it won't be done for 4 more months. I can only imagine they were either lying or allocated my mast to another boat. Crazy stuff. 

All that aside the build quality of the hull itself and the sailing experience are second to none in the class I think. They just need to figure out their customer service. 

Dealing with construction and IT, I've seen a lot of odd delays over the last year.  They've gotten worse and more weird over the last few months. Supply chains were not ready for the widespread disruption.  That said, I'll offer the sage advice of an anonymous source: when you think conspiracy, believe incompetence.

[JohnMB 560]

1 hour ago, PurpleOnion said:

  That said, I'll offer the sage advice of an anonymous source: when you think conspiracy, believe incompetence.

Hanlon's Razor

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

[CovBoy 18]

Qingdaosog,

I bought one of the early First 20, via a UK broker, to be shipped out to Korea. I assumed a 20th anniversary edition of the 21 would be fairly well sorted out but the new mainsail fooled the factory. 
I signed a three sail contract which was reneged on. White sails only. 
Forestay was too short, backing plates at shroud base were missing, outboard bracket installed too high.
Nothing catastrophic of course but awkward in a country with almost no recreational boating support infrastructure and me being a dumb foreigner.
And the 20 is a very simple boat.

oh, and apologies to all. I left the house without titties today.

 

CB

[Qingdaosog 35]

Sad to say no sailing this July. My First 27 back on the hard while Beneteau try to work out how to stop the propshaft leaking water. So far it has taken them two months to work this out . I wouldn't have thought it was rocket science...

[Hitchhiker 1,154]

1 hour ago, Qingdaosog said:

Sad to say no sailing this July. My First 27 back on the hard while Beneteau try to work out how to stop the propshaft leaking water. So far it has taken them two months to work this out . I wouldn't have thought it was rocket science...

Interesting, I expected a saildrive.  Is the engine located right behind the companionway steps?

[Qingdaosog 35]

Yes the engine is fitted behind the steps.The steps hinge upwards for access. And two side panels can be unscrewed as well to access the back of the Yanmar 1GM10

[Qingdaosog 35]

It's a very tidy setup actually. Pity about the water leak...  

[Hitchhiker 1,154]

21 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

Yes the engine is fitted behind the steps.The steps hinge upwards for access. And two side panels can be unscrewed as well to access the back of the Yanmar 1GM10

Interesting.  I repowered my Laser 28 with that engine and a saildrive about ten years ago.  Was pretty much the last year it was available in the US. Loved that thumper. 

[Qingdaosog 35]

I think I am one of the very few First 27s with a 1 GM10.Seems they have moved already to the 15 hp 2 cylinder Yanmar 

[Jackdaw 126]

On 7/11/2021 at 1:03 AM, Hitchhiker said:

Interesting, I expected a saildrive. 

It is just me seeing it this way, but do saildrive motors seem to sit higher than shaft driven? Might be a clearance issue.

 

[svein99 9]

On 7/11/2021 at 12:43 AM, Qingdaosog said:

Sad to say no sailing this July. My First 27 back on the hard while Beneteau try to work out how to stop the propshaft leaking water. So far it has taken them two months to work this out . I wouldn't have thought it was rocket science...

I agree - propshaft sealing is not new. You should have a stuffing box to allow shaft rotation without a water leak. There are many types to choose from - perhaps you only need to lubricate it if you have the rubber seal type?

[J11J 0]

Following your odyssey closely, Qingdaosog and feeling your frustration...

In other news, it seems Beneteau is offering the SE rig in the standard F27 hull. Almost seems too good, albeit expensive. Not sure what that means for standard sails, main sheet set up, sprit etc. Thoughts on this set up?

[apophenia 263]

I hope they don't kill off the swing keel.

[Qingdaosog 35]

5 hours ago, J11J said:

Following your odyssey closely, Qingdaosog and feeling your frustration...

In other news, it seems Beneteau is offering the SE rig in the standard F27 hull. Almost seems too good, albeit expensive. Not sure what that means for standard sails, main sheet set up, sprit etc. Thoughts on this set up?

The First 27 seems to be aimed at the middle of the market. Sailors that had limited skills wanting something stable that could still cope with spinnakers etc. That's me. Not sure that a carbon rig can be justified though of course nice to have.  On the other hand if the  sailor forgets to tighten the backstay when he sets the spinnaker he might wish he had a carbon rig.

We havent had a chance to sail mine much yet and with no cunningham yet or the complete reefing equipment we haven't explored.all her capabilities  But both the code.0 and the spinnaker have been user friendly in lightish winds so far. We also got caught in an unexpected  22 to 24 knot blow and considering that we couldnt reef she coped very well. But I was glad I had a backstay.. 

I do like carbon (which I had on my last boat) but I think.the aluminium rig on this boat is enough   And will maybe have greater longevity?

[Qingdaosog 35]

7 hours ago, apophenia said:

I hope they don't kill off the swing keel.

I don’t see why they would. Seascape put a lot of work into that. But you still need a crane so it's not as handy as at first  thought.  Personally for my needs I was happy  to move away from a swing keel with this boat. It opens up the saloon significantly and more weight at the bottom of the keel (maybe) improving stability.  I dont like the T shape bulb though. There are a lot of crab pots etc here... .

[J11J 0]

The real appeal of the carbon rig is the extra horsepower. The SE rig has almost 25% more sail area. The standard F27 is already heavier and Ill be sailing in a light air venue. It's a major expense though, especially for someone who doesn't plan to aggressively campaign the boat. In addition, I'm sure there's going to be additional growing pains, beyond what F27 owners are experiencing with delivery of these early production line boats. Tough call...

[Qingdaosog 35]

4 hours ago, J11J said:

The real appeal of the carbon rig is the extra horsepower. The SE rig has almost 25% more sail area. The standard F27 is already heavier and Ill be sailing in a light air venue. It's a major expense though, especially for someone who doesn't plan to aggressively campaign the boat. In addition, I'm sure there's going to be additional growing pains, beyond what F27 owners are experiencing with delivery of these early production line boats. Tough call...

Once the wind picks up above  12 knots there may not be much need for the extra horsepower. Below that the First 27  is very easy to manage the spinnaker and code 0.

I have no doubt that the SE with the carbon rig will be faster. But knots per dollar maybe not so much. Its going to be interesting to see the real world experience head to head. 

 

[J11J 0]

4 minutes ago, Qingdaosog said:

Once the wind picks up above  12 knots there may not be much need for the extra horsepower. Below that the First 27  is very easy to manage the spinnaker and code 0.

I have no doubt that the SE with the carbon rig will be faster. But knots per dollar maybe not so much. Its going to be interesting to see the real world experience head to head. 

 

Stop being so reasonable... I'm looking for enablers!

[Qingdaosog 35]

19 minutes ago, J11J said:

Stop being so reasonable... I'm looking for enablers!

Oh.. OK. Maybe the carbon rig will increase speed upwind to Warp speed and it will be a challenge keeping the hull planing out of the water...

[Parma 432]

Where was the boat built?

[Qingdaosog 35]

It was delivered from the Seascape facility in Slovenia.