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So far up to 10kt of wind. Boats pretty even in this conditions (Saphire a bit higher upwind, SSC a bit faster downwind) but hard to say since the level of the crew varies wildly. I will be there from friday to monday so hope to see you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A link recounting the SSC v Saphire sail on Lake Garda. Interesting reading. It's in Italian, so if you're not fluent opening up in Chrome might be a good idea.

 

http://amiciexplorer20.blogspot.it/2013/04/saphire-27-vs-seascape-27.html

 

Upwind 5° less than the Saphire? Is that really so?

 

Than have fun with a windward start in a great, mixed field.

Will feel like many 5.5 in leeward ;)

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Cant be, or bad sailor on board...

 

yea.... inhaulers not used? too much twist on the fathead? But I assumed that a seascape rep was on board.

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Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

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Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

According to Andraz, who I talked to @ lake Garda last week, the adjustable inhaulers were making things too complicated even for experienced sailors (to many degrees of freedom, I guess) for efficient trim. In order to keep it simple, they decided on one optimal fixed setting for the inhaulers. There still are the adjustable jib lead rings behind the more forward inhaulers, which allow for excellent trim of the jib. I sailed the SSC 27 in different wind conditions last week and on a first glance didn't miss the adjustable inhaulers at all.

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Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

According to Andraz, who I talked to @ lake Garda last week, the adjustable inhaulers were making things too complicated even for experienced sailors (to many degrees of freedom, I guess) for efficient trim. In order to keep it simple, they decided on one optimal fixed setting for the inhaulers. There still are the adjustable jib lead rings behind the more forward inhaulers, which allow for excellent trim of the jib. I sailed the SSC 27 in different wind conditions last week and on a first glance didn't miss the adjustable inhaulers at all.

 

Philen,

 

We are just gazing at our navels here and wondering about the '5 degrees off' comment from the review. You commented that the the boat seems fine. Do you have an opinion on the point the blogger made vis a vis the Saphire going upwind?

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OK, seeing that the Garda trials attract quite some interest here, I'll give you my five cents worth. I sailed the Saphire on sunday April 28th in the morning in about 8 to 11 kts of wind and later that afternoon the SSC 27 together with Andraz in a dying breeze of 6 to 1 kts. Andraz was kind enough to leave the SSC 27 in Malcesine for the following week (thanks Andraz!!!). So apart from doing a Seascape 18 training course at Stickl Sport camp I got the privilege to sail the SSC 27 three more times during last week in wind ranging from 4-5 kts up to about 15 kts. I'll just try to write down my thoughts and experiences and hopefully address some of the questions above.

Mind you, I will hopefully get SSC 27 hull # 10 in a couple of months, so I'm not entirely unbiased....

 

Saphire: Contrary to what you would think at first glance from the website, this is a boat made for up and down racing (predominantly in light winds) on the central European lakes. She also is supposed to be a family cruiser and easy to slip. She sails very agile, heels quickly and has a fair amount of windward helm, therefore needs a hand on the tiller at all times (making singlehanded sailing without autopilot difficult). She points well upwind (when I sailed her the wind was shifty so I can't give you absolute angles). Somewhere above 13 kts of true wind heeling and tiller pressure are so high, that I would reef the mainsail. At steep heeling angles I found it difficult to find a comfortable position at the helm (footrest too close). The cockpit does not offer too much space, and I personally had a hard time changing sides in tacks because of the proximity of the tiller and the main sheet block. Even in light winds I cant't see her being sailed in a relaxed manner, which goes against the "family day sailer" characteristics. Hull shape, waterline and keel configuration emphasize here ability to point high.

 

As for the 5° against the SSC: The two boats were sailed against each other one on one during the previous week, but not in a standardized way (e.g. no changing of positions windward, leeward) and with differently skilled crews. In 1 Bft the Saphire was apparently able to point about 2 to 3° higher making better VMG than the SSC, in 3 Bft that was not necessarily so (according to Andraz). Downwind the SSC seems to have the advantage (hull shape!). This is not my own experience, but what I gathered from talking to Andraz, Michael Tobler ("father" of the Saphire) and the people from Stickl. Some of the journalists who sailed the boats obviously had only little experience with these types of boats and racing, so their assessments may have to be taken with a grain of salt. Probably, the reports coming from Yacht (German) and Voiles (French) magazines will be the most reliable in this regard. We'll see...

 

So, to the Seascape: I admit, after stepping off the Saphire on Sunday I was briefly insecure, about my choice of the SSC, since I will be sailing mostly in light winds on lake Zurich. After last weeks outings on the boat I am completely at peace with my choice, though.

Sunday's sail with Andraz: as I said, in dying winds. So we just talked a lot about the boat, unrolled the code 0 (which Andraz hates and which will not be part of the OD sails, but I think will be a nice addition to the wardrobe on light wind lakes) and cruised around a little. What struck me most was how well balanced the boat is on the tiller. you can let go of it on any course (this was also true later in stronger winds). This is due to the double rudder, but still there is enough pressure to "feel" the boat. Compared to the Saphire this was so much more easy and pleasant. The SSC also sails more upright up to about 8 kts true. The second big plus IMHO is the space you have in the cockpit and the possiblity to always find a comfortable position no matter how much heeling there was. This actually makes the SSC more suitable for leisurely daysailing with the family than the Saphire.

During the week we went out a few more times (apart from me, that was Tim, a sailing instructor from Stickl with some Mini 650 experience, who had never sailed the SSC before, and members of my family). First, in 2 to 5 kts of light but fairly steady northwind. Using the code 0 we went at 45° AWA (90 to 95° TWA) and often easily at 4 kts boat speed (I don't recall the tacking angle and speeds when using the jib, but the Code 0 would be my choice in these conditions). Some other time in gusty and shifty 14 to 16 kts of wind. Upwind 7,5 to 7,8 kts, tacking angle about 80° but hard to tell. The boat would heel until the lee rail (?) was in the water but would be amazingly stable with only little, easily controllable weather helm. Downwind under the large genny: boat speeds of 12 kts again and again (could have been more with people who know the boat better than we did) an very easily recovered from round ups (due to steering mistakes). Slightly over powered as we were in these conditions the SSS was always very well controllable and felt extremely safe. In these conditions upwind performance could have been improved by putting in the 1st reef in the mainsail and be optimizing jib trim (we were just getting to know the boat). The boat was equipped with very nicely cut membrane sails by one sails, which reacted very well to any adjustments of the trim lines. So figuring out optimal settings for different conditions will be a nice but time consuming chore.

All in all an extremely joyful experience.

 

So back to the comparison: The Saphire will probably outperform the SSC one on one in light winds of 1 to 2 Bft upwind, perhaps also downwind (due to less wetted area). Around 3 Bft they are probably on par upwind. Downwind and at higher wind speeds I think the SSC will keep the upper hand (just a hunch, though). The SSC IMHO is the more versatile platform, especially if you also consider coastal racing and cruising. She's just a joy to sail!

 

Hope this didn't bore the f#Ç“ out of you guys...sorry :blink:

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Not at all. Thank you for taking the time to share your impressions. What did you think of the fit & finish of the two ? How about the interiors & Auxilliary power solutions ?

both boats are well finished. hulls are vacuum infusion, therfore light. fittings are high quality: Andersen, Spinlock and Ronstan on the SSC, and I think Lewmar, Spinlock and Harken on the Saphire (not 100% sure though). Inside the finish is a little less refined, just topcoat. I didn't see any major imperfections. However, the SSC was a pre production boat (first hull after the protoptype), about the saphire I don't know. The Saphire's interior comes along as straight out of the IKEA catalog with some colorful add ons (sink, stove etc), looks very pleasant. The upholstery in the saphire is a cool self drying material.

The SSC has a less flashy but very functional interior (all in all much more space inside, than the Saphire). According to Andraz very much effort went into finding good solutions for the inerior (that's wher Gigodesign came in). The removable bag system works very well and will add some color. The backrests look uncomfortable but are excellent. Cool LED lighting. I dind't spend too much time inside, though, last week, I was busy sailing in the cockpit ... :D

Power: The SSC had a Tohatsu 6 hp engine, which worked well and made the boat go about 4.5 kts in cruising mode, full throttle I think around 6.8 kts in flat water, but very loud then. The pivot thingy takes getting used to, but once you get the jist of it works very well. There are some minor issues of chafing of the motor's tiller on the rim of the cutout in the cockpit floor. If you will be motoring in larger waves the Tohatsu 9.8 hp is probably a better choice. It will still work fine within the shaft below the cockpit floor and has a remote cable throttle, an alternator and an elektro-starter.

The Saphire has a very similar, slightly more easy and comfortable to use pivot system in a shaft below the cockpit. However, this works best with torqueedo elektro motors. I think only a 2 to 3 hp outboard would fit there. If you want a stronger 4 stroke motor it will have to go on the stern. The torqueedos are cool and almost silent, buit there is the issue of price, range and charging. The larger torqueedo runs on a large LiPo battery below the companionway, which can only be charged via a land line. This solution is very expensive (around 8000.- CHF) and a no-go if you're on a buoy. The smaller torqueedo has removable batterypacks to be charged at home, but of course a smaller range. I'd be afraid, that exactly when you need it most you'd be out of juice...

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  • 4 weeks later...

Have an update here regarding motors:

 

there is an other solution fro the SSC 27, which is a Saildrive 330 (by HL Schiffstechnik Kressbronn, Lake Constance, Germnany). It is based on a 4 Stroke Parson 15 hp engine modified to fit on a saildrive gearbox of a Yamaha Volvo Penta MB2/50S. It is very compact an relatively light. It fits in to the shaft below the cockpit. Weight is 55 kg (compared to 42 kg of the Tohatsu 9,8 hp, so about 130%). Plus you have the drag of the saildrive and a two blade folding prop. Advantages are of course no fiddling with the pivot mechanism of the outboard, easy starting, 10 Amp alternator, no flap in the hull bottom and therfore a completely dry boat, and more than enough h-power.

 

EDIT added link http://www.hl-schiffstechnik.de/69.html

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here are a few popular sportboats in Europe for comparison (smaller GPH sails faster, higher gets time bonus)

 

Blu 26 626.7

mOcean 24 628.8

Esse 750 630.2

Saphire 27 630.3

J 70 668.9

Platu 25 671.3

Ufo 22 676.0

Surprise 694.7

Dolphin 81 618.5

Esse 850 606.7

Longtze 604.7

Joker 601.8

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Where does that fit in against the Melges, Esse, any Beneteau 36.7, J 109 or 105 etc?

 

The 367 rates a GPH of 618.

 

But it will normally sail to that, or close. It's why the Farr-Firsts are so popular. The SSC27 will be a wizard when its blowing, but will get crushed when its light. Such is the life of handicapped sportboats. Does not mean that I do not want one, however!

 

BTW a Pogo 12.50 rates a GPH of 560. Same rules apply.

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for those interested in the handicap of the SSC 27. I've seen the ORC Club certificate for one of the first hulls

GPH is 619.1

 

The GPH is only good for a direction.

 

For better comparisons you have to know the wind conditions of the preferred arear and the preferred races. (Up and down or long distance)

Then you compare the Triple Number for the predominant conditions.

 

For example, on Lake Constance I would compare with "weak" and "medium"

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for those interested in the handicap of the SSC 27. I've seen the ORC Club certificate for one of the first hulls

GPH is 619.1

 

The GPH is only good for a direction.

 

For better comparisons you have to know the wind conditions of the preferred arear and the preferred races. (Up and down or long distance)

Then you compare the Triple Number for the predominant conditions.

 

For example, on Lake Constance I would compare with "weak" and "medium"

Sure, GPH just gives you a rough idea about performance. Wind conditions and the actually sailed courses may shift the advantage between boats sailing in ORC Club.

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Plus, as in any race under a handicap rule, it depends on how well your actual handicap matches your actual performance that day for the given conditions, and if there is mismatch whether it is to your advantage or disadvantage. The true comparison is on the water not by the numbers!

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For all it's worth. Here are the triple numbers for the SSC 27:

 

Offshore, coastal/long distance: low 0.9728; medium 1.2183; high 1.3744

 

Inshore leeward/windward: low 0.7523; medium 0.9852; high 1.1205

 

So how does that compare to the Esse 850, Saphire 27, Dolphin 81 etc.?

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For anybody interested in comparing ORC certificates of different boats:

on http://www.orc.org

you can register and then search for any ORC certificate issued since 2012. then you can have them email you anything you found for free. If you are willing to shell out 90 Euros you can buy enough credits to have them send you a "speed guide" for the desired boat (containing mainly the polars in pdf and Excel format). I thought that's pretty cool.

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The test comparison between the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27 is published in the current issue (13, 2013 of Yacht.de) of on page 68. Below is a Google translation of the summary posted on their web page. Could someone with access to the full article post a pdf version or a brief summary?

-----------------------

One is from Switzerland and is conceptually somewhere between sports and boat sailers. The other comes from Slovenia and represents a racer with a strong focus on longer strokes on the open sea. Despite basically very different orientations, the Sapphires are 27 and 27, however, the Seascape so similar that they are often mentioned in the same breath as direct competitors.

The YACHT has therefore brought together the two young guns on Lake Garda for an exclusive comparison test. In different conditions, the rivals show strengths and weaknesses in all areas. The conclusion from the test: there is not a clear winner, but a lot of pleasant surprises, such as new and fresh ideas can be implemented particularly adept.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Guys, following debate about handicaps keep in mind that they marginally work in ww/lw courses where you get equal percentage of upwind and downwind conditions and correction for wind conditions. For any navigational race it is utterly stupid to compare boats on handicap from the day that planning boats came into the game. Speed difference between slowest angle (upwind) and fastest (broad reaching) is around 1:2 or even 1:3 while at normal displacement boats it only gets to about 1:1.5. So using a single number off course makes no sense.

Watski Twostar was best proof of that. Luckly we had both upwind and downwind part (not the case with some of the earlier races in the season that guys from NOR3 SeaYou did). On the first one we finished 38 (35 on handicap) which was surprisingly good considering the strong upwind conditions. But off course with rating equal to Elan37 judging your performance on the official results is stupid. As is stupid judging them on the second leg results that we won on handicap and 4th on the water only 25min behind the R/P 57 custom racer.

So working hard on one-design since our fight with SeaYou crew was surely a highlight of the race. They beat us for 4min upwind and we were stuck together on the downwind as well. With number 6 going out next week and new production line now in place next season will be fun.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

If it weighed anywhere close to 2.3 tonnes it would not be a sportboat - it is about half of that

Andraz, does your 27 have central lifting points and will it weigh under 2.3 tonnes? I have some UK requirements and these criteria are the cut-off for my dry package agreement.

 

Thanks

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Send me a PM with mail and I can send you details. Numbers for 27 are:

 

 

LOA: 799mm

LWL: 795mm

Beam: 254mm

Draft: 195mm/95cm Hydraulic operated

isplacement: 1250kg

Ballast: 600kg (430kg in the led bulb)

Main sail: 28m2 /3 reefs

Jib: 21m2

Staysail: 14m2

Masthed gennaker: 80m2

ngine:

Outboard 4‐10HP, outboard electric like Torqueedo or built in Saildrive 330

CE category B6/C8

Nautical designer: Samuel Manuard

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ngine:

Outboard 4‐10HP, outboard electric like Torqueedo or built in Saildrive 330

Andraz,

 

The 330 is a very nice option; very light with great range. Is this new for the boat? Where is the fuel tank located?

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Same place as normally - just completely fixed this time. We got a lot of requests so we are putting the first one to SUI9 and then on some German boats. Apart of some extra drag due to propeller and sail drive and off course price it is a good option that has half the weight of diesel engines.

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  • 2 months later...

Three Seascape 27's just finished no. 1,3,4 in their class in the Viska regatta. On the 2nd leg the best Seascape came in 12th overall in a field of 146 boats. Head over to the facebook page for more information (https://www.facebook.com/thinkseascape). The regatta site also has lots of nice pictures

 

Ps: For those awaiting the north American arrival - it's sooner than you think.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Seascape 27 for longer cruises/races, will that work? Seascape 27 is CE category B, meaning that it should be able to handle beaufort 8 and significant wave height of 4 meters, but how does that translate to offshore capabilities? Crossing the Atlantic is of course out of the question, but it is a good idea to sail 200 nm offshore with a cat B boat like Seascape 27, such as from the Norwegian west coast across the North Sea to Shetland? It will of course be uncomfortable sailing that distance in such a small boat, but will it be safe (assuming that the hundred year storm doesn't strike)?

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It's the singer, not the song.

 

More folks have made passages on 'unsuitable' craft than you could hope to name, just a couple years back a pair of guys sailed from Europe to the Carib on a J/80 - which certainly wasn't INTENDED for that sort of trip. While comfort, safety, volume for stores, tankage, machinery and many other factors can be objectively considered for suitability in an offshore context, what it boils down to is the fact that NOTHING is really "big enough" for a doomsday scenario - so at some point you have to just take it one wave at a time.

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Seascape 27 for longer cruises/races, will that work? Seascape 27 is CE category B, meaning that it should be able to handle beaufort 8 and significant wave height of 4 meters, but how does that translate to offshore capabilities? Crossing the Atlantic is of course out of the question, but it is a good idea to sail 200 nm offshore with a cat B boat like Seascape 27, such as from the Norwegian west coast across the North Sea to Shetland? It will of course be uncomfortable sailing that distance in such a small boat, but will it be safe (assuming that the hundred year storm doesn't strike)?

 

2 SSC27's successfully competed in the 2013 Watski Twostar race this summer. Contact Fjordsail (Norwegian dealer) for more info.

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Seascape 27 for longer cruises/races, will that work? Seascape 27 is CE category B, meaning that it should be able to handle beaufort 8 and significant wave height of 4 meters, but how does that translate to offshore capabilities? Crossing the Atlantic is of course out of the question, but it is a good idea to sail 200 nm offshore with a cat B boat like Seascape 27, such as from the Norwegian west coast across the North Sea to Shetland? It will of course be uncomfortable sailing that distance in such a small boat, but will it be safe (assuming that the hundred year storm doesn't strike)?

 

2 SSC27's successfully competed in the 2013 Watski Twostar race this summer. Contact Fjordsail (Norwegian dealer) for more info.

Do they have a website?

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Watski Twostar is a tough race no doubt, but hardly comparable to sailing 100-200 miles offshore. Reason why I am asking is because I am looking for a sailboat with offshore capabilities, which is good for shorthanded sailing (e.g. Sun Fast 3200) and ideally a little bigger than 27 foot. However, the trailability and much easier boathandling is in so much favor for the Seascape that it's hard to disregard. But question remains, is is safe/appropriate for occasional longer offshore trips (100-200 nm) with the Seascape?

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So far we are really happy with the seaworthiness of 27 and have no doubts she can handle the conditions promises in the certificate. For instance on short offshore race in Adriatic (although with the SE wind directions waves had almost unlimited fetch) going to an island in the middle of Adriatic (100M all together) we were one of the rare boats not to reef in 60 boat fleet limited to 9.4m in length (we had special invitation of the organiser to join with 4 SSC27). Wind was up to 25kt.

 

That said Sunfast even though slower (we finished 15th, 16th… very well sailed SF3200 finished 31st - they are National ORC champions) is much more comfortable so depends on your intended use.

 

Keep in mind that 27 is rethinked Mini transat that and has most of the safety features of the later. I did over 20000 offshore miles on the Mini so for me safety of the 27 is not questionable.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Seascape 27 for longer cruises/races, will that work? Seascape 27 is CE category B, meaning that it should be able to handle beaufort 8 and significant wave height of 4 meters, but how does that translate to offshore capabilities? Crossing the Atlantic is of course out of the question, but it is a good idea to sail 200 nm offshore with a cat B boat like Seascape 27, such as from the Norwegian west coast across the North Sea to Shetland? It will of course be uncomfortable sailing that distance in such a small boat, but will it be safe (assuming that the hundred year storm doesn't strike)?

.

we'll i think you have to pick you route and the weather

 

look at that shit that kept the mini transat fleet in port for a week odd

 

Norway to the Shetlands ? lol sounds like a 'viking'' discovery route, so open boats have done it,

carry a few buckets or a norse helmet might work well as you can grab it 'by the horns'

 

aside from them Uffa Fox did the britain to scandinavian transit quite a few times in 22 or 30 sq mtr boats with F all freeboard (less volume than a SSC27) and they'd spear through waves, don't be fooled by the appearance though these boats were exceptionally light relative to designs from their era

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  • 2 weeks later...

What is the lower limit for SMS rating? Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

CAN17 is doing Key west and Miami boatshow and staying in Florida in between.

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What is the lower limit for SMS rating? Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

CAN17 is doing Key west and Miami boatshow and staying in Florida in between.

Sb3 is about the bottom limit, with a j70 needing a waiver as it is too slow. Will the seascape beat these two easily enough?

Our cat 2 races require an inboard. Permanently installed outboard would be my preference too.

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SMS in itself has no lower limit, it is a formula

 

the AUS Sportsboat Assoc does however, at about the speed of a Laser SB20

 

you should be above that

but it's a matter whether the ASBA consider you a TY cruiser/racer, or you fly Symms, which are other areas where some designs may be ineligable

 

the j fucking 70 should measure in a little mainsail roach and come UP TO the Lower Limit, whether the actual SA or cloth is there or not

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just like I said

ASBA don't do SMS, they are a user of it the same as Hong Kong & Turkey

SMS is run by a company www.raceyachts.org & prior to that Yachting Victoria

 

I can also tell you that the l650 is a sportsboat with a lid, but still considered a sportsboat just like an E780 or Stealthy (lids)

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s: For those awaiting the north American arrival - it's sooner than you think.

 

What's the schedule for USA19? How long is it going to be in Florida, and where can we see it?

USA 18 will be in New Orleans at the end of January if anyone wants to go for a sail. We will do some traveling later in 2014. CAN 17 will be in Florida for a few weeks starting with KWRW.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

 

s: For those awaiting the north American arrival - it's sooner than you think.

 

What's the schedule for USA19? How long is it going to be in Florida, and where can we see it?

USA 18 will be in New Orleans at the end of January if anyone wants to go for a sail. We will do some traveling later in 2014. CAN 17 will be in Florida for a few weeks starting with KWRW.

Thinking seriously about SC27. Did you purchase the trailer? If so, was it a hassle to register? How about sails?

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s: For those awaiting the north American arrival - it's sooner than you think.

 

What's the schedule for USA19? How long is it going to be in Florida, and where can we see it?

USA 18 will be in New Orleans at the end of January if anyone wants to go for a sail. We will do some traveling later in 2014. CAN 17 will be in Florida for a few weeks starting with KWRW.

Thinking seriously about SC27. Did you purchase the trailer? If so, was it a hassle to register? How about sails?

 

Sent you a pm. Regarding sails you can order factory sails or use local suppliers. The first 2 boats are using North Sail and Vermont Sailing Partners respectively. Trailer registration can be an issue, but we have worked out a good process with the factory that we are confident will be hassle free.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.
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Who should we contact if we want to see/sail the Seascape 27 in Key West?

Boat arrives Miami fri 17th and we expect to be in Key West from the 20th (but it depends a bit on customs processing) to 31st of Jan at the Galleon Marina. You can pm me or contact the factory for co-ordinates.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.

 

The Columbia solution seems to me to be too much of a compromise. I would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip). The SSC27 will perform adequately with a 6hp Tohatsu and for more extreme weather and high speed the 8 or 9.8hp version. For short duration/good weather conditions I suspect the Torqeedo 1003 would do and future developments (more power and range) would make that a very interesting option.

 

The saildrive is basically a 4cyl outboard converted to a saildrive configuration so you are paying for the cost of the outboard plus the saildrive conversion. Very nicely done, but a bit expensive. Very nice option if you need the convenience and don't mind the extra cost. Otherwise go for the Tohatsu options or perhaps the Torqeedo.

 

We will soon be testing the 8hp Tohatsu which is a bit cheaper than the 9.8 (same engine except fuel system) and expect it to perform very well.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.

 

The Columbia solution seems to me to be too much of a compromise. I would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip). The SSC27 will perform adequately with a 6hp Tohatsu and for more extreme weather and high speed the 8 or 9.8hp version. For short duration/good weather conditions I suspect the Torqeedo 1003 would do and future developments (more power and range) would make that a very interesting option.

 

The saildrive is basically a 4cyl outboard converted to a saildrive configuration so you are paying for the cost of the outboard plus the saildrive conversion. Very nicely done, but a bit expensive. Very nice option if you need the convenience and don't mind the extra cost. Otherwise go for the Tohatsu options or perhaps the Torqeedo.

 

We will soon be testing the 8hp Tohatsu which is a bit cheaper than the 9.8 (same engine except fuel system) and expect it to perform very well.

 

Correction - the saildrive is 4 stroke, 2 cyl.

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On a small to regular lake that might be the ideal solution, on the sea I wouldn't really count on it unless the weather is 100% safe. I was last year with my U20 in the mediterranean sea with a 1003. In rough sea that engine is not usable. And the U20 is only half the weight of the SSC27.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.

 

The Columbia solution seems to me to be too much of a compromise.

I would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip).

 

The SSC27 will perform adequately with a 6hp Tohatsu and for more extreme weather and high speed the 8 or 9.8hp version. For short duration/good weather conditions I suspect the Torqeedo 1003 would do and future developments (more power and range) would make that a very interesting option.

 

The saildrive is basically a 4cyl outboard converted to a saildrive configuration so you are paying for the cost of the outboard plus the saildrive conversion. Very nicely done, but a bit expensive. Very nice option if you need the convenience and don't mind the extra cost. Otherwise go for the Tohatsu options or perhaps the Torqeedo.

 

We will soon be testing the 8hp Tohatsu which is a bit cheaper than the 9.8 (same engine except fuel system) and expect it to perform very well.

 

Since this type of boat drive has been around for almost a century, please elaborate in detail exactly what it is that you find objectionable to its performance.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.

 

The Columbia solution seems to me to be too much of a compromise.

I would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip).

 

The SSC27 will perform adequately with a 6hp Tohatsu and for more extreme weather and high speed the 8 or 9.8hp version. For short duration/good weather conditions I suspect the Torqeedo 1003 would do and future developments (more power and range) would make that a very interesting option.

 

The saildrive is basically a 4cyl outboard converted to a saildrive configuration so you are paying for the cost of the outboard plus the saildrive conversion. Very nicely done, but a bit expensive. Very nice option if you need the convenience and don't mind the extra cost. Otherwise go for the Tohatsu options or perhaps the Torqeedo.

 

We will soon be testing the 8hp Tohatsu which is a bit cheaper than the 9.8 (same engine except fuel system) and expect it to perform very well.

 

Since this type of boat drive has been around for almost a century, please elaborate in detail exactly what it is that you find objectionable to its performance.

 

Not intending to flame, but based on the short video clip you can see that the propeller is shielded by the largish flat plate in front which would probably reduce the forward thrust potential significantly compared to a streamlined strut like you normally see. in the aviation world it is well known that pusher prop installations often don't perform as well as their tractor brothers and are much harder to design well. I'm sure it works well on the Columbia, but that the thrust delivered is less than it would be for a more streamlined configuration. I think it is still an interesting concept.

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On a small to regular lake that might be the ideal solution, on the sea I wouldn't really count on it unless the weather is 100% safe. I was last year with my U20 in the mediterranean sea with a 1003. In rough sea that engine is not usable. And the U20 is only half the weight of the SSC27.

 

The engine location on the SSC27 is in a tunnel vs transom mounted on the U20 and J70. This should make it more forgiving in rougher weather. For a nice review of the capabilities of the T1003 see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4NU7tCMln0. The folks at Torqeedo thought that it would perform similarly on the SSC27 with a 6hp outboard, but take longer to get up to speed. For endurance, acceleration and top speed plus rough weather capability you probably would want something more capable. For these reasons I elected to go with the 8hp Tohatsu where I expect a top speed of around 7kts and ample rough weather capability.

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Saildrive is already installed in two boats - both older owners. Otherwise 9.8hp with push pull cables is in my opinion better solution.

 

If a

(like in Columbia 32) was offered as an option, I would buy one.

 

The Columbia solution seems to me to be too much of a compromise.

I would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip).

 

The SSC27 will perform adequately with a 6hp Tohatsu and for more extreme weather and high speed the 8 or 9.8hp version. For short duration/good weather conditions I suspect the Torqeedo 1003 would do and future developments (more power and range) would make that a very interesting option.

 

The saildrive is basically a 4cyl outboard converted to a saildrive configuration so you are paying for the cost of the outboard plus the saildrive conversion. Very nicely done, but a bit expensive. Very nice option if you need the convenience and don't mind the extra cost. Otherwise go for the Tohatsu options or perhaps the Torqeedo.

 

We will soon be testing the 8hp Tohatsu which is a bit cheaper than the 9.8 (same engine except fuel system) and expect it to perform very well.

 

Since this type of boat drive has been around for almost a century, please elaborate in detail exactly what it is that you find objectionable to its performance.

 

Not intending to flame, but based on the short video clip you can see that the propeller is shielded by the largish flat plate in front which would probably reduce the forward thrust potential significantly compared to a streamlined strut like you normally see. in the aviation world it is well known that pusher prop installations often don't perform as well as their tractor brothers and are much harder to design well. I'm sure it works well on the Columbia, but that the thrust delivered is less than it would be for a more streamlined configuration. I think it is still an interesting concept.

 

Every drive system is a compromise, as you will discover with the one that you chose.

 

Having extensive experience with both outboard in a well and with sail drive systems, I would prefer the convenience of a diesel engine powering a 3 blade maxi prop while motoring and the huge advantage of zero propellor and appendage drag while sailing. The ability to charge batteries while racing with a strong diesel powering the biggest possible alternator to recharge batteries is also invaluable for distance races.

 

Disappearing propeller may not be a solution that everyone would chose, but I would like to have that option especially since it could possibly sell at least one additional boat.

 

Regarding the concept of disappearing propellor, or DIPPY for short, you stated that "(you) would question its performance in bad weather (based on the video clip)".

 

Not to belabor the point, but I do not understand how the boat performance would be effected more adversely in bad weather with a DIPPY than with an outboard in a well or a sail drive.

 

Please explain.

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The only difference (I know of) between a prop under the hull vs stern mounted is that a prop that is allowed to come out of water in rough weather looses effectiveness. This is more likely on a stern mounted unit.

 

You are correct in stating that every one of these solutions are compromises. A well designed retractable unit such as the Columbia could perform well if designed to minimize negative installation effects due to upstream blockages and shaft inclination (prop thrust not aligned with forward motion of the boat). Regarding other engine options - remember that the SSC derives it's amazing performance in part due to low weight (about 2400 lb plus crew) and drag. According to the factory it achieves over 7 KTS on 9.8 SHP which is above hull speed. The Tohatsu in this case weighs 81.5 lb dry and cost around $2000-3000 depending on options. The sail drive with the same power is much more expensive. The J88 which is a much larger and heavier boat uses a 14 hp Yanmar diesel (their smallest model) weighing 227lb plus shaft, installation and prop. If a generator is necessary there is an optional 6A alternator kit for the Tohatsu which adds little weight. You can also equip it with remote start and throttle which makes for a very convenient installation (just tilt and start).

 

Do you really need an alternator? An SSC27 was used in several short handed races in Europe (SeaYou) last summer. These races were up to 190nm and they ran on battery banks only with some use of the autopilot. A second battery would probably provide you all the electricity you need.

 

For those wanting the convenience of a permanent engine installation for an SSC27 I think that today the sail drive option is the best alternative if you can live with the extra cost and weight.