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Orma 60s


JL92S

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With so many built, where are they now?

I know about the Artemis test mule, ex BP4 and whatever vodaphone was also groupama 2 was for sale but haven't heard anything recently. Didn't one break in half as well?

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There are still quite a few around in various places for example the ORMA 60 Sopra is available for charter. I think Foncia is still hanging in the shed at the Submarine base in Lorient. There are quite a few boats scattered around. The ORMA 60 Brossard broke in half and its remains are still visible on Google Earth in Oman. And the former Sodebo ORMA was used as a parts bin for the new Prince de Bretagne Maxi donating its beams, rig and foils to the otherwise new boat. If you search on ORMA in Yachtworld you will see quite a few boats are still around and up for sale. A performance bargain if you can handle the high cost of ownership.

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The full history of the ORMA boats is excellently tracked on this website: http://www.histoired...MA/Sommaire.htm

(some pages in English, but better if you read French or use google translate)

 

Their list covers all 60-footers, some were predecessors to the ORMA class, so not technically ORMAs.

 

To summarize:

- 5 have been lengthened/shortened to new class size

- 16 are still sailing at 60ft size (9 private owners, 6 charter, 1 racing)

- 4 are stocked ashore (mostly for sale)

- 10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea

- 4 are fate unclear

 

Here's a detailed status based on that site (and what I know):

 

(1) Lengthened/shortened to new class size

*Lengthened:

- Prince de Bretagne II (ex-Sodebo, VPLP 2002): lengthened to 80ft in 2012, still racing

- Gitana XI (ex-Belgacom, VPLP 2001): lengthened to 77ft in 2009, still racing

- Tritium (ex-Bonduelle, VPLP 1999): purchased by John Sangmeister in 2012 after being lengthened to 72ft by Artemis for AC wing testing

 

*Shortened:

- Laiterie de Saint-Malo (ex-Laiterie Mont St Michel, Irens 1987): shortened to Multi 50 in 2006, for sale?

- Fujicolor (Irens 1987): center hull re-used to make a Multi 50 for Anne Caseneuve in 2002

 

(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter

*Private owners (2000 generation):

- Team Australia (ex-Bayer Cropscience/Banque Populaire IV, Irens 2002): doing great in Australia :)

- Vodaphone (ex-Geant, VPLP 2002): doing equally well in NZ :)

- Libertad (Plessis 2006 cat): home built (under-funded), has sailed a bit but status unclear

 

*Private owners (1990s generation):

- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994): sailing US West Coast

- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990): purchased in 2011 in Sweden, currently lying La Rochelle

- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011

 

*Private owners (oldies):

- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing

- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?

- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009

 

*Charter:

- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France

- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France

- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)

- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011

- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear

- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008?

 

*Racing:

- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012

 

(3) Stocked ashore

- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): for sale

- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 cat): for sale

- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale, after being re-built (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre

- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it

 

(4) Destroyed/sunk

*2000 generation

- Orange (ex-Banque Populaire III, Lombard 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2006 Route du Rhum

- Atheos (ex-Gitana X, Ollier 2001): purchased for charter purposes in 2009, but broke-up at sea and lays in pieces ashore (hull/floats/mast, no beams)

- Brossard (ex-Sergio Tacchini, Irens 2001): Wrecked in 2009 in Oman. Foul play highly suspected (insurance fraud?).

- TIM (ex-FILA, VPLP 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Banque Populaire II (Lombard 2000): capsized and abandoned during 2000 C1Star

- FujiFilm (Irens 2000): broke-up and abandoned during 2002 Route du Rhum

 

*1990 generation

- Orange Project (ex-Broceliande, VPLP 1997): capsized and destroyed during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Fleury Michon XI (VPLP 1992): broke-up and destroyed during 1993 racing. Floats re-used for Broceliande.

 

*Oldies:

- Hitachi (VPLP 1988): capsized and abandoned during 1989 Lorient-St Barth-Lorient

- Steinlager (Williams 1987): capsized, unclear if recovered?

 

(5) Fate unclear

- Dupon Duran III (Lombard 1994 cat): last for sale in 2004

- Sebago (Thompson 1988): unclear if navigating since ~1999

- Larus Roc (ex-Paragon, Humprey/Thompson 1985): unclear if navigating since 2005

- Gryllos (ex-Lejaby Rasurel 2, Lombard 1985 cat): status unclear but was sailing as a cruiser in 2002

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The original Adrian Thompson designed Paragon still exists and is called Titi Nui (big tits, lol) these days and cruises in the Bay of Islands, NZ it's quite detuned with a fixed rig and sits low on her lines due to cruising gear weight. Larus Roc was a sister ship to Paragon apparently (Paragon Mk2).

 

It's sold but the listing for Larus Roc is still available on the Multihull Company website:

 

http://www.multihull..._MKII/Larus_Roc

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a couple of years ago there was 1 for sale up round denmark for about us$250k

 

http://www.boatshop2...-orma-60/285605

 

http://www.yachtworl.../Ostsee/Germany

 

Yes, the listings are for HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990). Great boat, upgraded over the years under Loick Peyron, since well-maintained by German charter owners, upgraded engine, etc.

One issue for potential racer-cruising use is a very large chord wingmast (even by ORMA standards). Otherwise, one of the nicer ORMA options available for potential buyers...

 

Note: the video is a different boat - as far as I can tell it's Nokia/Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988). Very nice but nothing close to as modern as HMI/Fuji II. Older design with relatively low-volume floats.

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Best one out there is Groupama II, pretty much the fastest ORMA ever made. Team Oz (ex BPIV) was a really successful ocean racer as was Gitana XI (sadly - as it was the only Irens of it's generation left - stretched) although to be fair they won a lot of races vs Groupama II because old Franck could keep it right side up in the ocean...

 

Also I'm not sure if LoeReal was ever really an ORMA as I believe it was built specifically for the movie (somebody made a killing there) so was never raced on the circuit.

 

Ah the good old days...

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Speng, pretty sure LoeReal was an altered ORMA, not built for the film - I think either a sister to, or maybe the original Florence Arthaud tri, the beautifully (feminine) painted one, Group Pierre Premier.

Partly correct -- LoeReal was one of two purpose-built trimarans for Waterworld film (one had working sailplan, the other a daft sci-fi windmill rig). Both the movie trimarans were built on same plans as Group Pierre 1er, so near-sisterships to that one, which I guess does make them 'altered ORMAs', although they never raced in the class. I think of the 2 movie tris, LoeReal was the sailing version, while the windmill version is now ashore on display somewhere in the US (at the studios? I once saw a photo).

 

Group Pierre 1er lived on as Steve Fossett's Lakota, and later as charter boat in Sweden, now La Rochelle.

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The full history of the ORMA boats is excellently tracked on this website: http://www.histoired...MA/Sommaire.htm

(some pages in English, but better if you read French or use google translate)

 

Their list covers all 60-footers, some were predecessors to the ORMA class, so not technically ORMAs.

 

To summarize:

- 5 have been lengthened/shortened to new class size

- 16 are still sailing at 60ft size (9 private owners, 6 charter, 1 racing)

- 4 are stocked ashore (mostly for sale)

- 10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea

- 4 are fate unclear

 

Here's a detailed status based on that site (and what I know):

 

(1) Lengthened/shortened to new class size

*Lengthened:

- Prince de Bretagne II (ex-Sodebo, VPLP 2002): lengthened to 80ft in 2012, still racing

- Gitana XI (ex-Belgacom, VPLP 2001): lengthened to 77ft in 2009, still racing

- Tritium (ex-Bonduelle, VPLP 1999): purchased by John Sangmeister in 2012 after being lengthened to 72ft by Artemis for AC wing testing

 

*Shortened:

- Laiterie de Saint-Malo (ex-Laiterie Mont St Michel, Irens 1987): shortened to Multi 50 in 2006, for sale?

- Fujicolor (Irens 1987): center hull re-used to make a Multi 50 for Anne Caseneuve in 2002

 

(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter

*Private owners (2000 generation):

- Team Australia (ex-Bayer Cropscience/Banque Populaire IV, Irens 2002): doing great in Australia :)

- Vodaphone (ex-Geant, VPLP 2002): doing equally well in NZ :)

- Libertad (Plessis 2006 cat): home built (under-funded), has sailed a bit but status unclear

 

*Private owners (1990s generation):

- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994): sailing US West Coast

- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990): purchased in 2011 in Sweden, currently lying La Rochelle

- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011

 

*Private owners (oldies):

- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing

- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?

- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009

 

*Charter:

- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France

- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France

- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)

- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011

- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear

- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008?

 

*Racing:

- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012

 

(3) Stocked ashore

- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): for sale

- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 cat): for sale

- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale, after being re-built (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre

- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it

 

(4) Destroyed/sunk

*2000 generation

- Orange (ex-Banque Populaire III, Lombard 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2006 Route du Rhum

- Atheos (ex-Gitana X, Ollier 2001): purchased for charter purposes in 2009, but broke-up at sea and lays in pieces ashore (hull/floats/mast, no beams)

- Brossard (ex-Sergio Tacchini, Irens 2001): Wrecked in 2009 in Oman. Foul play highly suspected (insurance fraud?).

- TIM (ex-FILA, VPLP 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Banque Populaire II (Lombard 2000): capsized and abandoned during 2000 C1Star

- FujiFilm (Irens 2000): broke-up and abandoned during 2002 Route du Rhum

 

*1990 generation

- Orange Project (ex-Broceliande, VPLP 1997): capsized and destroyed during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Fleury Michon XI (VPLP 1992): broke-up and destroyed during 1993 racing. Floats re-used for Broceliande.

 

*Oldies:

- Hitachi (VPLP 1988): capsized and abandoned during 1989 Lorient-St Barth-Lorient

- Steinlager (Williams 1987): capsized, unclear if recovered?

 

(5) Fate unclear

- Dupon Duran III (Lombard 1994 cat): last for sale in 2004

- Sebago (Thompson 1988): unclear if navigating since ~1999

- Larus Roc (ex-Paragon, Humprey/Thompson 1985): unclear if navigating since 2005

- Gryllos (ex-Lejaby Rasurel 2, Lombard 1985 cat): status unclear but was sailing as a cruiser in 2002

Thanks for that!!
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Speng, pretty sure LoeReal was an altered ORMA, not built for the film - I think either a sister to, or maybe the original Florence Arthaud tri, the beautifully (feminine) painted one, Group Pierre Premier.

Partly correct -- LoeReal was one of two purpose-built trimarans for Waterworld film (one had working sailplan, the other a daft sci-fi windmill rig). Both the movie trimarans were built on same plans as Group Pierre 1er, so near-sisterships to that one, which I guess does make them 'altered ORMAs', although they never raced in the class. I think of the 2 movie tris, LoeReal was the sailing version, while the windmill version is now ashore on display somewhere in the US (at the studios? I once saw a photo).

 

Group Pierre 1er lived on as Steve Fossett's Lakota, and later as charter boat in Sweden, now La Rochelle.

 

Thanks Galacticair - sounds far more precise than my guesses.

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Speng, pretty sure LoeReal was an altered ORMA, not built for the film - I think either a sister to, or maybe the original Florence Arthaud tri, the beautifully (feminine) painted one, Group Pierre Premier.

Partly correct -- LoeReal was one of two purpose-built trimarans for Waterworld film (one had working sailplan, the other a daft sci-fi windmill rig). Both the movie trimarans were built on same plans as Group Pierre 1er, so near-sisterships to that one, which I guess does make them 'altered ORMAs', although they never raced in the class. I think of the 2 movie tris, LoeReal was the sailing version, while the windmill version is now ashore on display somewhere in the US (at the studios? I once saw a photo).

 

Group Pierre 1er lived on as Steve Fossett's Lakota, and later as charter boat in Sweden, now La Rochelle.

 

Thanks Galacticair - sounds far more precise than my guesses.

 

I'm pretty sure its the other way around. The sailing 60' tri was used at Universal studios, the beams chopped to ship to Florida. Being converted into a cruiser by the guy who bought the pieces in Florida.

 

Loe Real was the sound stage boat with no internal structure. The hulls were popped form the same ORMA 60 molds as Florence's boat. Loe Enloe spent years and lots of money turning her into a functional sailboat. I think her beam is less than 60', 45'?

 

What about listing Hydraplaneur as the ORMA 60 catamaran?

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Speng, pretty sure LoeReal was an altered ORMA, not built for the film - I think either a sister to, or maybe the original Florence Arthaud tri, the beautifully (feminine) painted one, Group Pierre Premier.

Partly correct -- LoeReal was one of two purpose-built trimarans for Waterworld film (one had working sailplan, the other a daft sci-fi windmill rig). Both the movie trimarans were built on same plans as Group Pierre 1er, so near-sisterships to that one, which I guess does make them 'altered ORMAs', although they never raced in the class. I think of the 2 movie tris, LoeReal was the sailing version, while the windmill version is now ashore on display somewhere in the US (at the studios? I once saw a photo).

 

Group Pierre 1er lived on as Steve Fossett's Lakota, and later as charter boat in Sweden, now La Rochelle.

 

Thanks Galacticair - sounds far more precise than my guesses.

 

I'm pretty sure its the other way around. The sailing 60' tri was used at Universal studios, the beams chopped to ship to Florida. Being converted into a cruiser by the guy who bought the pieces in Florida.

 

Loe Real was the sound stage boat with no internal structure. The hulls were popped form the same ORMA 60 molds as Florence's boat. Loe Enloe spent years and lots of money turning her into a functional sailboat. I think her beam is less than 60', 45'?

 

What about listing Hydraplaneur as the ORMA 60 catamaran?

Thanks a lot - interesting history about Loe Real! Didn't know too much about the two waterworld boats. Still find it unbelievable they'd build two boats for a movie and then chuck them... What's a sound stage boat by the way?

 

Beam of 45-50ft sounds about right for Loe Real, Lakota/Pierre 1er is exactly 50ft (I measured it last summer).

 

Hydraplanneur is in my list above, under the "Mediatis" name (stocked ashore, for sale).

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The full history of the ORMA boats is excellently tracked on this website: http://www.histoired...MA/Sommaire.htm

(some pages in English, but better if you read French or use google translate)

 

Their list covers all 60-footers, some were predecessors to the ORMA class, so not technically ORMAs.

 

To summarize:

- 5 have been lengthened/shortened to new class size

- 16 are still sailing at 60ft size (9 private owners, 6 charter, 1 racing)

- 4 are stocked ashore (mostly for sale)

- 10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea

- 4 are fate unclear

 

Here's a detailed status based on that site (and what I know):

 

(1) Lengthened/shortened to new class size

*Lengthened:

- Prince de Bretagne II (ex-Sodebo, VPLP 2002): lengthened to 80ft in 2012, still racing

- Gitana XI (ex-Belgacom, VPLP 2001): lengthened to 77ft in 2009, still racing

- Tritium (ex-Bonduelle, VPLP 1999): purchased by John Sangmeister in 2012 after being lengthened to 72ft by Artemis for AC wing testing

 

*Shortened:

- Laiterie de Saint-Malo (ex-Laiterie Mont St Michel, Irens 1987): shortened to Multi 50 in 2006, for sale?

- Fujicolor (Irens 1987): center hull re-used to make a Multi 50 for Anne Caseneuve in 2002

 

(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter

*Private owners (2000 generation):

- Team Australia (ex-Bayer Cropscience/Banque Populaire IV, Irens 2002): doing great in Australia :)

- Vodaphone (ex-Geant, VPLP 2002): doing equally well in NZ :)

- Libertad (Plessis 2006 cat): home built (under-funded), has sailed a bit but status unclear

 

*Private owners (1990s generation):

- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994): sailing US West Coast

- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990): purchased in 2011 in Sweden, currently lying La Rochelle

- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011

 

*Private owners (oldies):

- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing

- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?

- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009

 

*Charter:

- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France

- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France

- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)

- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011

- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear

- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008?

 

*Racing:

- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012

 

(3) Stocked ashore

- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): for sale

- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 cat): for sale

- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale, after being re-built (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre

- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it

 

(4) Destroyed/sunk

*2000 generation

- Orange (ex-Banque Populaire III, Lombard 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2006 Route du Rhum

- Atheos (ex-Gitana X, Ollier 2001): purchased for charter purposes in 2009, but broke-up at sea and lays in pieces ashore (hull/floats/mast, no beams)

- Brossard (ex-Sergio Tacchini, Irens 2001): Wrecked in 2009 in Oman. Foul play highly suspected (insurance fraud?).

- TIM (ex-FILA, VPLP 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Banque Populaire II (Lombard 2000): capsized and abandoned during 2000 C1Star

- FujiFilm (Irens 2000): broke-up and abandoned during 2002 Route du Rhum

 

*1990 generation

- Orange Project (ex-Broceliande, VPLP 1997): capsized and destroyed during 2005 Jacques Vabre

- Fleury Michon XI (VPLP 1992): broke-up and destroyed during 1993 racing. Floats re-used for Broceliande.

 

*Oldies:

- Hitachi (VPLP 1988): capsized and abandoned during 1989 Lorient-St Barth-Lorient

- Steinlager (Williams 1987): capsized, unclear if recovered?

 

(5) Fate unclear

- Dupon Duran III (Lombard 1994 cat): last for sale in 2004

- Sebago (Thompson 1988): unclear if navigating since ~1999

- Larus Roc (ex-Paragon, Humprey/Thompson 1985): unclear if navigating since 2005

- Gryllos (ex-Lejaby Rasurel 2, Lombard 1985 cat): status unclear but was sailing as a cruiser in 2002

 

"10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea"

 

 

10 out of 39. Thats an attritcian rate of just over 25%. A bit high isn't it?

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"10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea"

 

10 out of 39. Thats an attritcian rate of just over 25%. A bit high isn't it?

Actually I was surprised looking at these numbers that the attrition rate was so low. Just look at all the ORMA races in the 2000s, with their very high capsize & structural failure rates:

- Route du Rhum 2002: 3 boats finished out of 18, including 5 capsizes, and 2 major structural failures

- Jacques Vabre 2005: 4 finished out of 10, including 3 capsizes and 2 major structural failures

 

It's surprising how many of the boats were recovered/rebuilt despite these incidents. In the end, the attrition rate on '2000' generation ORMAs is 40% (6 boats destroyed/abandoned out of 15, incl. 1999 Bonduelle in the count, excl. 2006 Libertad which never raced). It's high, but for a class that's effectively 'dead' it's lower than one might expect. A surprising number still live on as charter boats, in private hands, or for sale.

 

Nigel Irens is supposed to have said about Enza that ocean racing multihulls were never supposed to be monuments (he was surprised Enza lasted 20 years). The 2000 generation of formula 1 trimarans were certainly never built to last very long - just to win 1-2 Route du Rhums... Singlehanded races are an extreme high stakes game.

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"10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea"

 

10 out of 39. Thats an attritcian rate of just over 25%. A bit high isn't it?

Actually I was surprised looking at these numbers that the attrition rate was so low. Just look at all the ORMA races in the 2000s, with their very high capsize & structural failure rates:

- Route du Rhum 2002: 3 boats finished out of 18, including 5 capsizes, and 2 major structural failures

- Jacques Vabre 2005: 4 finished out of 10, including 3 capsizes and 2 major structural failures

 

It's surprising how many of the boats were recovered/rebuilt despite these incidents. In the end, the attrition rate on '2000' generation ORMAs is 40% (6 boats destroyed/abandoned out of 15, incl. 1999 Bonduelle in the count, excl. 2006 Libertad which never raced). It's high, but for a class that's effectively 'dead' it's lower than one might expect. A surprising number still live on as charter boats, in private hands, or for sale.

 

From what I've heard about how the boats were built they would have been highly motivated to recover them as they were expensive to build especially as time went on on. Also I reckon recovering a boat that light isn't too difficult in the Bay of Biscay. The way it's going there might soon be enough antipodean ones to have class starts.

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Maybe these machines will be used more for record setting than lining up against each other in races (limited as they are in any event).

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I didn't saw this one mentioned in the thread but it is frequently advertised last 3 years.

 

http://www.blocket.s...8.htm?ca=11&w=3

Thanks a lot. Spirit of Titan is in fact in my list above under "Samsung" (ex-Spirit of Apricot, 1988), under category #2 "Still navigating at 60ft: Private owners (oldies)".

 

It does illustrate a broader point that the older boats have changed names so many times, it's hard to keep track!! Spirit of Apricot has been called many things over the years: Samsung, Spirit of Titan, Gore-Tex, Toshiba, etc.

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- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011

 

I was the American at the bankruptcy auction in Pointe a Pitre, Guadaloupe in April 2011. Two guys from the Dominican Republic won the auction and the boat. They intended to use it for daysailing. Not heard since. Claude Thelier had it in Guadaloupe up until then.

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"10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea"

 

10 out of 39. Thats an attritcian rate of just over 25%. A bit high isn't it?

Actually I was surprised looking at these numbers that the attrition rate was so low. Just look at all the ORMA races in the 2000s, with their very high capsize & structural failure rates:

- Route du Rhum 2002: 3 boats finished out of 18, including 5 capsizes, and 2 major structural failures

- Jacques Vabre 2005: 4 finished out of 10, including 3 capsizes and 2 major structural failures

 

It's surprising how many of the boats were recovered/rebuilt despite these incidents. In the end, the attrition rate on '2000' generation ORMAs is 40% (6 boats destroyed/abandoned out of 15, incl. 1999 Bonduelle in the count, excl. 2006 Libertad which never raced). It's high, but for a class that's effectively 'dead' it's lower than one might expect. A surprising number still live on as charter boats, in private hands, or for sale.

 

Nigel Irens is supposed to have said about Enza that ocean racing multihulls were never supposed to be monuments (he was surprised Enza lasted 20 years). The 2000 generation of formula 1 trimarans were certainly never built to last very long - just to win 1-2 Route du Rhums... Singlehanded races are an extreme high stakes game.

Actualy ENZA still exists

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  • 10 months later...

The full history of the ORMA boats is excellently tracked on this website: http://www.histoired...MA/Sommaire.htm(some pages in English, but better if you read French or use google translate)Their list covers all 60-footers, some were predecessors to the ORMA class, so not technically ORMAs.To summarize: - 5 have been lengthened/shortened to new class size- 16 are still sailing at 60ft size (9 private owners, 6 charter, 1 racing)- 4 are stocked ashore (mostly for sale)- 10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea- 4 are fate unclearHere's a detailed status based on that site (and what I know):(1) Lengthened/shortened to new class size*Lengthened:- Prince de Bretagne II (ex-Sodebo, VPLP 2002): lengthened to 80ft in 2012, still racing- Gitana XI (ex-Belgacom, VPLP 2001): lengthened to 77ft in 2009, still racing- Tritium (ex-Bonduelle, VPLP 1999): purchased by John Sangmeister in 2012 after being lengthened to 72ft by Artemis for AC wing testing*Shortened:- Laiterie de Saint-Malo (ex-Laiterie Mont St Michel, Irens 1987): shortened to Multi 50 in 2006, for sale?- Fujicolor (Irens 1987): center hull re-used to make a Multi 50 for Anne Caseneuve in 2002(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter*Private owners (2000 generation):- Team Australia (ex-Bayer Cropscience/Banque Populaire IV, Irens 2002): doing great in Australia :)- Vodaphone (ex-Geant, VPLP 2002): doing equally well in NZ :)- Libertad (Plessis 2006 cat): home built (under-funded), has sailed a bit but status unclear*Private owners (1990s generation):- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994): sailing US West Coast- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990): purchased in 2011 in Sweden, currently lying La Rochelle- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011*Private owners (oldies):- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009*Charter:- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008?*Racing:- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012(3) Stocked ashore- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): for sale- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 cat): for sale- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale, after being re-built (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it(4) Destroyed/sunk*2000 generation- Orange (ex-Banque Populaire III, Lombard 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2006 Route du Rhum- Atheos (ex-Gitana X, Ollier 2001): purchased for charter purposes in 2009, but broke-up at sea and lays in pieces ashore (hull/floats/mast, no beams)- Brossard (ex-Sergio Tacchini, Irens 2001): Wrecked in 2009 in Oman. Foul play highly suspected (insurance fraud?).- TIM (ex-FILA, VPLP 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2005 Jacques Vabre- Banque Populaire II (Lombard 2000): capsized and abandoned during 2000 C1Star - FujiFilm (Irens 2000): broke-up and abandoned during 2002 Route du Rhum*1990 generation- Orange Project (ex-Broceliande, VPLP 1997): capsized and destroyed during 2005 Jacques Vabre- Fleury Michon XI (VPLP 1992): broke-up and destroyed during 1993 racing. Floats re-used for Broceliande.*Oldies:- Hitachi (VPLP 1988): capsized and abandoned during 1989 Lorient-St Barth-Lorient- Steinlager (Williams 1987): capsized, unclear if recovered?(5) Fate unclear- Dupon Duran III (Lombard 1994 cat): last for sale in 2004- Sebago (Thompson 1988): unclear if navigating since ~1999- Larus Roc (ex-Paragon, Humprey/Thompson 1985): unclear if navigating since 2005- Gryllos (ex-Lejaby Rasurel 2, Lombard 1985 cat): status unclear but was sailing as a cruiser in 2002

The full history of the ORMA boats is excellently tracked on this website: http://www.histoired...MA/Sommaire.htm(some pages in English, but better if you read French or use google translate)Their list covers all 60-footers, some were predecessors to the ORMA class, so not technically ORMAs.To summarize: - 5 have been lengthened/shortened to new class size- 16 are still sailing at 60ft size (9 private owners, 6 charter, 1 racing)- 4 are stocked ashore (mostly for sale)- 10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea- 4 are fate unclearHere's a detailed status based on that site (and what I know):(1) Lengthened/shortened to new class size*Lengthened:- Prince de Bretagne II (ex-Sodebo, VPLP 2002): lengthened to 80ft in 2012, still racing- Gitana XI (ex-Belgacom, VPLP 2001): lengthened to 77ft in 2009, still racing- Tritium (ex-Bonduelle, VPLP 1999): purchased by John Sangmeister in 2012 after being lengthened to 72ft by Artemis for AC wing testing*Shortened:- Laiterie de Saint-Malo (ex-Laiterie Mont St Michel, Irens 1987): shortened to Multi 50 in 2006, for sale?- Fujicolor (Irens 1987): center hull re-used to make a Multi 50 for Anne Caseneuve in 2002(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter*Private owners (2000 generation):- Team Australia (ex-Bayer Cropscience/Banque Populaire IV, Irens 2002): doing great in Australia :)- Vodaphone (ex-Geant, VPLP 2002): doing equally well in NZ :)- Libertad (Plessis 2006 cat): home built (under-funded), has sailed a bit but status unclear*Private owners (1990s generation):- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994): sailing US West Coast- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990): purchased in 2011 in Sweden, currently lying La Rochelle- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): supposedly purchased in bankruptcy court by an American in 2011*Private owners (oldies):- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009*Charter:- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008?*Racing:- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012(3) Stocked ashore- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): for sale- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 cat): for sale- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale, after being re-built (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it(4) Destroyed/sunk*2000 generation- Orange (ex-Banque Populaire III, Lombard 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2006 Route du Rhum- Atheos (ex-Gitana X, Ollier 2001): purchased for charter purposes in 2009, but broke-up at sea and lays in pieces ashore (hull/floats/mast, no beams)- Brossard (ex-Sergio Tacchini, Irens 2001): Wrecked in 2009 in Oman. Foul play highly suspected (insurance fraud?).- TIM (ex-FILA, VPLP 2001): capsized and abandoned during 2005 Jacques Vabre- Banque Populaire II (Lombard 2000): capsized and abandoned during 2000 C1Star - FujiFilm (Irens 2000): broke-up and abandoned during 2002 Route du Rhum*1990 generation- Orange Project (ex-Broceliande, VPLP 1997): capsized and destroyed during 2005 Jacques Vabre- Fleury Michon XI (VPLP 1992): broke-up and destroyed during 1993 racing. Floats re-used for Broceliande.*Oldies:- Hitachi (VPLP 1988): capsized and abandoned during 1989 Lorient-St Barth-Lorient- Steinlager (Williams 1987): capsized, unclear if recovered?(5) Fate unclear- Dupon Duran III (Lombard 1994 cat): last for sale in 2004- Sebago (Thompson 1988): unclear if navigating since ~1999- Larus Roc (ex-Paragon, Humprey/Thompson 1985): unclear if navigating since 2005- Gryllos (ex-Lejaby Rasurel 2, Lombard 1985 cat): status unclear but was sailing as a cruiser in 2002

Do you know of any that are still on the market? Any of the later models?

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Further to Steinlager 1 - it hit the bricks in Scandinavia / Norway somewhere and broke apart and sank back in 92-93.

More perpetuation of the myth that multihulls can sink. I don't doubt that it broke apart but most of the parts would float, not sink.

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"10 are destroyed/abandoned at sea"

 

10 out of 39. Thats an attritcian rate of just over 25%. A bit high isn't it?

Actually I was surprised looking at these numbers that the attrition rate was so low. Just look at all the ORMA races in the 2000s, with their very high capsize & structural failure rates:

- Route du Rhum 2002: 3 boats finished out of 18, including 5 capsizes, and 2 major structural failures

- Jacques Vabre 2005: 4 finished out of 10, including 3 capsizes and 2 major structural failures

 

It's surprising how many of the boats were recovered/rebuilt despite these incidents. In the end, the attrition rate on '2000' generation ORMAs is 40% (6 boats destroyed/abandoned out of 15, incl. 1999 Bonduelle in the count, excl. 2006 Libertad which never raced). It's high, but for a class that's effectively 'dead' it's lower than one might expect. A surprising number still live on as charter boats, in private hands, or for sale.

 

Nigel Irens is supposed to have said about Enza that ocean racing multihulls were never supposed to be monuments (he was surprised Enza lasted 20 years). The 2000 generation of formula 1 trimarans were certainly never built to last very long - just to win 1-2 Route du Rhums... Singlehanded races are an extreme high stakes game.

What is the life of a Formula 1 race car?

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Do you know of any that are still on the market? Any of the later models?

 

7-8 ORMAs are currently officially listed for sale, primarily 1990s versions (see red listings below). 2000 models would be nicer if you want to race, but few are available and they are a lot less comfortable as the class grew more extreme with the years (narrower center hull, etc).

 

Going through the list in my 2013 post:

 

(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter

*Private owners (2000 generation):

Team Australia, Vodaphone, Libertad => no change in status, likely not for sale

Groupama II: recently bought by owner of Loe Real

 

*Private owners (1990s generation):

- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994) => recently listed for sale, as owner has upgraded to Groupama II (see above). Lying San Diego (link)

- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990) => owner listed it for sale in 2013 (link). Currently lying Caribbean. However, the owner now plans to continue to Asia via Panama and Hawaii (he started in Sweden in 2012) and is removing the listing. Boat would still be available to an interested buyer.

- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): status unclear since failed attempt to sell in bankruptcy court in 2011 (according to posts above)

 

*Private owners (oldies):

- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing.

- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?

- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009

 

*Charter: => these are mostly not listed for sale, but would likely be for sale for the right price

- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France

- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France

- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)

- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011 => listed for sale (link). Lying Mediterranean.

- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear

- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008 => listed for sale for several years now (link). Lying Baltic.

 

*Racing:

- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012 => listed for sale (link). Lying western France.

 

(3) Stocked ashore

- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): sold to owner of Loe Real in 2013

- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 catamaran): for sale for several years now (link). Lying western France.

- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale for several years now (link), after being re-built and lengthened (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre. Lying western France.

- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it

 

(4) Not technically an ORMA:

- Paradox (VPLP 2010): purpose built as racer-cruiser in ORMA molds (Fujifilm), slightly lengthened for added cruising weight. Recently listed for sale (link), believe it is now lying in Europe. By far the most expensive of all.

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This might be Eure et Loire, although the picture is of the Idec 100 footer

 

http://www.multihullworld.co.uk/boatdetails.asp?id=12602

Given the description of it having been refurbished for cruising, it's most likely Paul Vatine's Region Haute Normandie (see my other post). I haven't heard of Eure et Loire being refurbished.

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Also I never know Catamarans measured in as ORMAs. Was there many built?

A couple of cats in the 80s (before the class was called ORMA), two Lombard cats in 1994 (Harris Wilson / Dupon Duran 3) that never did very well, and then Parlier's Mediatis in 2003 (for sale).

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Do you know of any that are still on the market? Any of the later models?

7-8 ORMAs are currently officially listed for sale, primarily 1990s versions (see red listings below). 2000 models would be nicer if you want to race, but few are available and they are a lot less comfortable as the class grew more extreme with the years (narrower center hull, etc).

 

Going through the list in my 2013 post:

 

(2) Still navigating at 60ft: racing/cruising/charter

*Private owners (2000 generation):

Team Australia, Vodaphone, Libertad => no change in status, likely not for sale

Groupama II: recently bought by owner of Loe Real

*Private owners (1990s generation):- Loereal (ex-Waterworld, VPLP 1994) => recently listed for sale, as owner has upgraded to Groupama II (see above). Lying San Diego (link)

- Lakota (ex-Pierre 1er, VPLP 1990) => owner listed it for sale in 2013 (link). Currently lying Caribbean. However, the owner now plans to continue to Asia via Panama and Hawaii (he started in Sweden in 2012) and is removing the listing. Boat would still be available to an interested buyer.

- Name unknown (ex-RMO/Primagaz, VPLP 1990): status unclear since failed attempt to sell in bankruptcy court in 2011 (according to posts above)*Private owners (oldies):

- Samsung (ex-Spirit of Apricot, Noble 1988): lying Scandinavia, limited sailing.

- Ocean 3 (ex-Fleury Michon IX, Irens 1988): new owner since 2011?

- Interroll (ex-33 Export, Ollier 1984 cat): pics sailing in 2009*Charter: => these are mostly not listed for sale, but would likely be for sale for the right price

- Emotion (ex-Sopra, Lombard 2002): available for day-charter in France

- Sensations (ex-Foncia, VPLP 2001): available for day-charter in France

- HiQ (ex-Groupama, VPLP 1998): available for day-charter in Sweden since ~2012 (owner sold Lakota and bought this as replacement)- Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, Irens 1998): available for day-charter in France since 2011 => listed for sale (link). Lying Mediterranean.

- Name unknown (ex-Harris Wilson, Joubert 1994 cat): charter cat since late 1990s, current status unclear- HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, Irens 1990): limited charter/sailing in Germany since 2008 => listed for sale for several years now (link). Lying Baltic.*Racing:- Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III, Ollier 1988): participated in Transat Quebec Saint-Malo 2012 => listed for sale (link). Lying western France.(3) Stocked ashore

- Groupama 2 (VPLP 2004): sold to owner of Loe Real in 2013- Mediatis (Aquitaine Design 2003 catamaran): for sale for several years now (link). Lying western France.- Region Haute Normandie (Irens 1994): for sale for several years now (link), after being re-built and lengthened (unfinished) for a Thailand-based charter owner, following many years as a wreck ashore after 1999 capsize in Jacques Vabre. Lying western France.

- Eure et Loire (ex-Banque Populaire, Irens 1994): still belongs to Francis Joyon, appears unwilling to sell it

 

(4) Not technically an ORMA:

- Paradox (VPLP 2010): purpose built as racer-cruiser in ORMA molds (Fujifilm), slightly lengthened for added cruising weight. Recently listed for sale (link), believe it is now lying in Europe. By far the most expensive of all.

Thanks. It would be nice to get a late model one for racing. Hoping there is one hiding out in s shed some where.

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Also I never know Catamarans measured in as ORMAs. Was there many built?

A couple of cats in the 80s (before the class was called ORMA), two Lombard cats in 1994 (Harris Wilson / Dupon Duran 3) that never did very well, and then Parlier's Mediatis in 2003 (for sale).

Looks like both the Lombard cats have ended up hauling tourists about together in Mauritius;

 

http://www.skreo-dz.com/article-ile-maurice-12-ilot-gabriel-ile-plate-les-catas-de-grand-baie-croisiere-d-un-jour-a-la-voile-ar-92309596.html

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Also I never know Catamarans measured in as ORMAs. Was there many built?

A couple of cats in the 80s (before the class was called ORMA), two Lombard cats in 1994 (Harris Wilson / Dupon Duran 3) that never did very well, and then Parlier's Mediatis in 2003 (for sale).

Looks like both the Lombard cats have ended up hauling tourists about together in Mauritius;

 

http://www.skreo-dz.com/article-ile-maurice-12-ilot-gabriel-ile-plate-les-catas-de-grand-baie-croisiere-d-un-jour-a-la-voile-ar-92309596.html

Nice discovery - sounds like they know operate as "Harris Wilson I" and "II". Glad they continue sailing to this day, even though substantially down-graded from their racing pedigree.

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Also I never know Catamarans measured in as ORMAs. Was there many built?

A couple of cats in the 80s (before the class was called ORMA), two Lombard cats in 1994 (Harris Wilson / Dupon Duran 3) that never did very well, and then Parlier's Mediatis in 2003 (for sale).

I forgot, there's also the 2006 catamaran Libertad (see the posts above). Home built on a small budget, never really got a chance to prove itself.

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Other than Paradox-which one for sale is friendliest for cruising?

A metaphysical question if any... Let me give it a shot:

 

First keep in mind that ORMAs are some of the toughest boats to cruise in (other than G class multis). The three key reasons have nothing to do with the individual boats:

- Berthing: given their width, these are incredibly hard boats to find marina/dock space for (plus they are also very stressful to dock-in/dock-out above 12kts of wind); moorings/anchoring can be another option, but a concern if exposed to stormy weather

 

- Haul-out: it's even more challenging to find suitable facilities/cranes (though less frequently needed than berthing). Invariably, you will need to haul-out for antifouling, minor structural repairs, mast repairs, etc.

 

- Crew: the challenge here is the quality of the crew, not the number. These boats are great short-handed, with a sweet spot of 3-4 crew (or also easily double-handed but with the challenge of dock-in/dock-out). The difficulty is in finding experienced crew that are very reactive and have a good intuition for apparent wind sailing.

 

=> Any owner will spend a significant amount of bandwidth planning/resolving the above 3 challenges. It certainly is possible, but don't underestimate time/money resources required. The sailing part is easy in comparison...

 

 

Next, let's define what boat specific features/amenities matter for cruising. Here's my list:

(1) Ease of berthing

- Narrow beam (50ft vs. 60ft) => typically older generation boats

- Narrow chord mast for less windage

 

(2) General cruising capabilities

- Uprated engine: 55-75hp (vs. 27hp on race versions)

- Anchoring capabilities: windlass & anchor roller

 

(3) Inside comfort (varies a LOT)

- Wide center hull with larger living space => typically older generation boats

- Hatches for air/light

- Optional amenities: fridge, toilet, air heater, etc

 

(4) Long-distance sailing readiness => typically a big problem with the day-charter boats that have not sailed long-distance in years, and therefore under-invested or taken shortcuts in maintenance/refits/repairs. Nothing money/time can't fix, but something a new owner should minimize in order to actually get sailing.

- Sailing hardware/rigging in good condition + no shortcuts

- Upgraded electronics (AIS, radar, radio/satphone, etc)

- Power generation (solar, etc)

 

(5) Outside comfort => not much on these boats

- Large open center cockpit (vs. "bathtub" cockpit) => typically only on 2000 generations boats

- Comfortable helming positions

 

I'm sure I forgot a few features.

 

 

Now, how does each boat rate vs. these? I'll preface that I'm related to the owner of Lakota, so consider me biased if you wish. I also don't have perfect information on each boat, so this is my best estimate:

- Best cruiser: Paradox (obviously)

 

- Cruising ready (but not perfect): Loe Real (1994), Lakota (1990) => private owners who've invested to make the boats cruising capable & reliable

 

- High cruising potential: Region Haute Normandie (1994, which VMG posted above) => significantly refurbished for cruising, but has yet to sail as such and still requires a lot of finishing/hardware, etc.

HMI (ex-Fujicolor II, 1990) => very nice boat with great racing pedigree, partly upgraded for cruising by charter owners ~6 years ago. Key issue is the very high windage mast (one of the largest chords in ORMA), and it hasn't sailed significantly in years.

 

- Medium potential: Atheos (ex-Biscuiterie La Trinitaine, 1998) => great platform and boat, large interior, but significantly under-invested in maintenance. Would need a very significant refit/upgrade for cruising (at least last time I saw it in 2010). Also, very wide compared to the boats above, so would be more challenging in Marinas.

 

- Low potential: Mediatis (2003) and Defi Cancale (ex-Elf Acquitaine III) => I believe both are small inside, and have only been used for racing, so would need upgrades for cruising.

 

Finally, note that distance matters. Buying one of these close to one's home port saves a lot of time/hassle, or else you will likely end up having to budget for cargo ship transport (like most owners have done so far).

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Also I never know Catamarans measured in as ORMAs. Was there many built?

A couple of cats in the 80s (before the class was called ORMA), two Lombard cats in 1994 (Harris Wilson / Dupon Duran 3) that never did very well, and then Parlier's Mediatis in 2003 (for sale).

Looks like both the Lombard cats have ended up hauling tourists about together in Mauritius;

 

http://www.skreo-dz.com/article-ile-maurice-12-ilot-gabriel-ile-plate-les-catas-de-grand-baie-croisiere-d-un-jour-a-la-voile-ar-92309596.html

Nice discovery - sounds like they know operate as "Harris Wilson I" and "II". Glad they continue sailing to this day, even though substantially down-graded from their racing pedigree.

Minor correction for the record (my original mistake): the two 1994 cats Harris Wilson and Dupon Duran III are Joubert designs (not Lombard)

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Was Brossard ever salvaged ?

Don't think so. At that time it was much cheaper to just buy any of the other ORMA boats stocked in French hangars (BP IV, Sodebo, Foncia, Groupama II, Bonduelle, etc) than to try to rebuild Brossard. I remember visiting Lorient/La Trinite in 2010 and in 1 day I saw 4 ORMAs for sale, most of them 2000 generation or more recent, in ready-to-sail condition, and for a fraction of their original cost. Hard to picture anyone spending $ rebuilding Brossard in that context.

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I often wonder what happens to the leftovers when they rebuild an old boat for example what happened to the ORMA 60 Sodebo's hulls were they given the saw or do they have a boneyard for old hulls and bits and pieces?

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I often wonder what happens to the leftovers when they rebuild an old boat for example what happened to the ORMA 60 Sodebo's hulls were they given the saw or do they have a boneyard for old hulls and bits and pieces?

They go to landfill I reckon.

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Was Brossard ever salvaged ?

Don't think so. At that time it was much cheaper to just buy any of the other ORMA boats stocked in French hangars (BP IV, Sodebo, Foncia, Groupama II, Bonduelle, etc) than to try to rebuild Brossard. I remember visiting Lorient/La Trinite in 2010 and in 1 day I saw 4 ORMAs for sale, most of them 2000 generation or more recent, in ready-to-sail condition, and for a fraction of their original cost. Hard to picture anyone spending $ rebuilding Brossard in that context.

 

Yer right. There non around now. Shame to see one in that condition. Thinking of heading over to Lorient in summer for a look.

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Molds are available in Noumea, and New Caledonia is an amazing place to learn your new boat.

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I often wonder what happens to the leftovers when they rebuild an old boat for example what happened to the ORMA 60 Sodebo's hulls were they given the saw or do they have a boneyard for old hulls and bits and pieces?

They go to landfill I reckon.

If you go to LaTrinite, cross the Kersiper Bridge to the boat yard on the East side of the river. Look like you own the place and have a wander deep into the area behind the buildings.

My wife loves coming on holiday with me!

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have to ask janj70, he builds boats.

Need to get a few punters and do a production run, unlikely that would ever happen though

If Australia want an off shore racing scene, we the sailors and boat owners are going to have to back it and support it and race in boats that can do them.

We need to move and get with the times. An Orma I know is behind the times but for us down under it is not.

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have to ask janj70, he builds boats.

Need to get a few punters and do a production run, unlikely that would ever happen though

If Australia want an off shore racing scene, we the sailors and boat owners are going to have to back it and support it and race in boats that can do them.

We need to move and get with the times. An Orma I know is behind the times but for us down under it is not.

It's not just the purchase price. No good having a 60' racer if you can't afford to maintain it. Costs double for every 5' in LOA.

I am hoping to run a 30' racing cat for $10k/year (unrealistic?). Double that for a 35' gives $20k. $40k/year to run a 40' multihull racer. $80k for 45', $160k for 50', $320k for 55', $640k for 60'.

How many of us can afford $640k/year. And I reckon these figures are very conservative.

So an affordable multihull racer will be 30', OK for B2G etc. but that's a bit small for say S2H, a sensible minimum for Cat 1 would be 38' IMO.

I see a possibility of a small fleet of 40' multihull racers. Can't see a big fleet of 60's until big money gets involved.

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My 40' boat is cheap to run. This year is rough, new boards and new sails, but boards are once every 10 yrs, sails every 4. Annually, maybe $10k max.

Is that total cost of ownership, moorings, antifoul etc, or just racing extras? Seems very cheap

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Total. Mooring is $240/year. Bottom paint is $1k/year. Storage for hurricane season is about $3k. Amortized cost of sails, $3k. Oh yeah, insurance is $3k. Occasional jammer or block is $500. Most of our lines are hand me downs from big boat programs. Sub-$15k for sure

 

Hotels/entry fees/booze at a regatta aren't included.

 

This year, like I said, is expensive but it's an exception. Hopefully these boards and sails last a while.

You should own an F40 in France! Insurance is only $1k, mooring is $900, but the boat can stay on all year (it's blowing 75kts tonight which is why I'm still up typing). Other costs are similar, of course, and I'm also going to learn to beg for old lines once I've worked through the stack that came with it. Biggest expense by far is time.

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My 40' boat is cheap to run. This year is rough, new boards and new sails, but boards are once every 10 yrs, sails every 4. Annually, maybe $10k max.

OK so there is hope for $10k/year for my 30' racer.

Insurance is cheaper here too, about 1.5k. Mooring about the same, no hurricane season. I use copper in epoxy on the bottom so no anual cost, just a swim once/fortnight. Reckon I'll spend a lot more than $3k/year on sails.

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t's not just the purchase price. No good having a 60' racer if you can't afford to maintain it. Costs double for every 5' in LOA.

 

I am hoping to run a 30' racing cat for $10k/year (unrealistic?). Double that for a 35' gives $20k. $40k/year to run a 40' multihull racer. $80k for 45', $160k for 50', $320k for 55', $640k for 60'.

How many of us can afford $640k/year. And I reckon these figures are very conservative.

So an affordable multihull racer will be 30', OK for B2G etc. but that's a bit small for say S2H, a sensible minimum for Cat 1 would be 38' IMO.

I see a possibility of a small fleet of 40' multihull racers. Can't see a big fleet of 60's until big money gets involved.

No doubt maintenance for a 50 or 60ft racing multi would be expensive compared to a 30-40ft multi, but nowhere near these figures for a typical amateur owner... I think the $640K rule of thumb you quote for 60ft tri might make sense for a semi-pro or pro program (like back in the active days of ORMA racing), with a full-time boat captain, skipper and several paid crew, major annual refit (sails, mods to gain weight, etc), etc.. But no one with an ORMA these days is spending anywhere near these levels (which would be 2x the value of the boat per year...!). I'd take a guess Vodaphone/Team Australia are spending the most today (newest boats with significant maintenance, new sails, etc), yet still much lower than these figures.

 

For your average amateur owner, these large racing boats are fast enough for their program, so they don't need to spend major $ every year on maintenance/upgrades to keep the boat at max potential (like you would in a pro race program). The sails and rigging/lines last 3-5 years, winches/hardware 5-15+ years, electronics 5-10 years, etc. So the major ongoing expenses are marina docking, insurance and haul-out (for antifouling, etc), all of which are exponentially more complicated than on a 30-40ft boat, but fairly quantifiable with some research. There is also a varying $ amount of upfront investment to bring the older boats up to whatever specs the owner wants (e.g. more cruising ready, prep for ocean crossings, remedy any under-investment by prior owner, etc).

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Great knowledge, Galacticair. I was really surprised how easy Paradox was to use. It was probably the easiest boat to sail I've ever sailed on. Mooring was easy stern to, docking was straightforward stern first. I know it's a different boat than a true ORMA, but its close I imagine. Realistically I should buy a house, not another boat. If I bought a boat I couldn't go for something sensible like a Lagoon or a Beneteau. I'll always have to sail fast, I think. Faamu Sami wasn't bad. Virgin Fire isn't bad. I just hate wood and water together. Large and affordable composite cats/tris aren't plentiful. I love Keith Notary's custom 60' cat, but the price is too high for what you get. I think a Formula 50 is too small, right? Prices are cheap for them though. My friend in Turkey just bought a F40 tri. Great weekender, but I wouldn't want to long distance cruise it. But that's me. Paradox had plenty of space for comfortable cruising, but I doubt any ORMAs come close.

 

This thread is a great resource for ORMA knowledge, btw. Gotta bookmark this page.

You're welcome, Soma.

 

On Lakota we also moor/anchor stern to, I agree it works surprisingly well (windlass & roller on aft center hull). Makes one wonder why more boats don't do that...

 

Formula 50 could be interesting. I grew up sailing a Crowther 50 racing catamran (former Top Gun, current E-Doc), in many ways the perfect boat for a fast sailing enthusiast - very fast, yet small enough to get into marinas easily, not too difficult to lift out, etc. Small inside, so not a family cruiser, but great for day cruising and 2-3 day shorthanded passages. Formula 50 trimarans from France would be similar I suspect, but yes, quite small inside (narrow hulls, etc). And not necessarily that fast as most are very old/heavy designs.

 

In comparison to the 50s, most ORMA 60s feel significantly bigger inside (especially length wise + headroom), so offer better accomodation in that respect, but certainly much more of a hassle to own or go out for a spin than a 50ft class.

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Great knowledge, Galacticair. I was really surprised how easy Paradox was to use. It was probably the easiest boat to sail I've ever sailed on. Mooring was easy stern to, docking was straightforward stern first. I know it's a different boat than a true ORMA, but its close I imagine. Realistically I should buy a house, not another boat. If I bought a boat I couldn't go for something sensible like a Lagoon or a Beneteau. I'll always have to sail fast, I think. Faamu Sami wasn't bad. Virgin Fire isn't bad. I just hate wood and water together. Large and affordable composite cats/tris aren't plentiful. I love Keith Notary's custom 60' cat, but the price is too high for what you get. I think a Formula 50 is too small, right? Prices are cheap for them though. My friend in Turkey just bought a F40 tri. Great weekender, but I wouldn't want to long distance cruise it. But that's me. Paradox had plenty of space for comfortable cruising, but I doubt any ORMAs come close.

 

This thread is a great resource for ORMA knowledge, btw. Gotta bookmark this page.

You're welcome, Soma.

 

On Lakota we also moor/anchor stern to, I agree it works surprisingly well (windlass & roller on aft center hull). Makes one wonder why more boats don't do that...

 

Formula 50 could be interesting. I grew up sailing a Crowther 50 racing catamran (former Top Gun, current E-Doc), in many ways the perfect boat for a fast sailing enthusiast - very fast, yet small enough to get into marinas easily, not too difficult to lift out, etc. Small inside, so not a family cruiser, but great for day cruising and 2-3 day shorthanded passages. Formula 50 trimarans from France would be similar I suspect, but yes, quite small inside (narrow hulls, etc). And not necessarily that fast as most are very old/heavy designs.

 

In comparison to the 50s, most ORMA 60s feel significantly bigger inside (especially length wise + headroom), so offer better accomodation in that respect, but certainly much more of a hassle to own or go out for a spin than a 50ft class.

A fleet of Top Guns would be awesome.

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t's not just the purchase price. No good having a 60' racer if you can't afford to maintain it. Costs double for every 5' in LOA.

I am hoping to run a 30' racing cat for $10k/year (unrealistic?). Double that for a 35' gives $20k. $40k/year to run a 40' multihull racer. $80k for 45', $160k for 50', $320k for 55', $640k for 60'.

How many of us can afford $640k/year. And I reckon these figures are very conservative.

So an affordable multihull racer will be 30', OK for B2G etc. but that's a bit small for say S2H, a sensible minimum for Cat 1 would be 38' IMO.

I see a possibility of a small fleet of 40' multihull racers. Can't see a big fleet of 60's until big money gets involved.

No doubt maintenance for a 50 or 60ft racing multi would be expensive compared to a 30-40ft multi, but nowhere near these figures for a typical amateur owner... I think the $640K rule of thumb you quote for 60ft tri might make sense for a semi-pro or pro program (like back in the active days of ORMA racing), with a full-time boat captain, skipper and several paid crew, major annual refit (sails, mods to gain weight, etc), etc.. But no one with an ORMA these days is spending anywhere near these levels (which would be 2x the value of the boat per year...!). I'd take a guess Vodaphone/Team Australia are spending the most today (newest boats with significant maintenance, new sails, etc), yet still much lower than these figures.

 

For your average amateur owner, these large racing boats are fast enough for their program, so they don't need to spend major $ every year on maintenance/upgrades to keep the boat at max potential (like you would in a pro race program). The sails and rigging/lines last 3-5 years, winches/hardware 5-15+ years, electronics 5-10 years, etc. So the major ongoing expenses are marina docking, insurance and haul-out (for antifouling, etc), all of which are exponentially more complicated than on a 30-40ft boat, but fairly quantifiable with some research. There is also a varying $ amount of upfront investment to bring the older boats up to whatever specs the owner wants (e.g. more cruising ready, prep for ocean crossings, remedy any under-investment by prior owner, etc).

OK what would be your estimate for anual cost for 60', 50', 40'?

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I'd argue that abandoning a boatyard solution ends up cheaper. A big crane (here at least) is $200/hr with a 3hr minimum. That's cheaper than a travelift. A concrete apron can often be found for cheap or free. Grab some friends, a few DAs, and a bottom job can be done in a weekend for the cost of some paint, some sanding disks, and a some tape and rollers. A mooring is cheap regardless of size here. Insurance scales to value, so a $300k boat costs about 2x what my boat is insured for.

 

A new main...that's another matter.

Depends on your boatyard. We have one 'near' sydney that is quite economical to use for DIY and storage that uses a custom trailer to get boats out of the water and onto hardstanding. I used it twice for XL2 and using a copper in epoxy coating means it only comes out to do the bottom once in 10 years or more.

 

Waterways mooring on The Lake here costs me $240/year (much more on Sydney Harbour) and $190 vessel registration which is necessary for Waterways mooring, even if you have Aust' Reg' Ship.

 

Multihull Insurance here is a sore point at present and radically favours cats over tris. We would be much better off 'self insuring' if only we could buy liability cover separately ($10 million cover required). Cost for my 30' cat is $1500 covering $100k and for my 24' tri is $1200 covering $55k.

 

For the 30' cat, Mainsail $8k, Jib $4k Spin $4k.

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t's not just the purchase price. No good having a 60' racer if you can't afford to maintain it. Costs double for every 5' in LOA.

I am hoping to run a 30' racing cat for $10k/year (unrealistic?). Double that for a 35' gives $20k. $40k/year to run a 40' multihull racer. $80k for 45', $160k for 50', $320k for 55', $640k for 60'.

How many of us can afford $640k/year. And I reckon these figures are very conservative.

So an affordable multihull racer will be 30', OK for B2G etc. but that's a bit small for say S2H, a sensible minimum for Cat 1 would be 38' IMO.

I see a possibility of a small fleet of 40' multihull racers. Can't see a big fleet of 60's until big money gets involved.

No doubt maintenance for a 50 or 60ft racing multi would be expensive compared to a 30-40ft multi, but nowhere near these figures for a typical amateur owner... I think the $640K rule of thumb you quote for 60ft tri might make sense for a semi-pro or pro program (like back in the active days of ORMA racing), with a full-time boat captain, skipper and several paid crew, major annual refit (sails, mods to gain weight, etc), etc.. But no one with an ORMA these days is spending anywhere near these levels (which would be 2x the value of the boat per year...!). I'd take a guess Vodaphone/Team Australia are spending the most today (newest boats with significant maintenance, new sails, etc), yet still much lower than these figures.

 

For your average amateur owner, these large racing boats are fast enough for their program, so they don't need to spend major $ every year on maintenance/upgrades to keep the boat at max potential (like you would in a pro race program). The sails and rigging/lines last 3-5 years, winches/hardware 5-15+ years, electronics 5-10 years, etc. So the major ongoing expenses are marina docking, insurance and haul-out (for antifouling, etc), all of which are exponentially more complicated than on a 30-40ft boat, but fairly quantifiable with some research. There is also a varying $ amount of upfront investment to bring the older boats up to whatever specs the owner wants (e.g. more cruising ready, prep for ocean crossings, remedy any under-investment by prior owner, etc).

OK what would be your estimate for anual cost for 60', 50', 40'?

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not the owner so hard to say :)

 

I know for the 50ft cat, it was on mooring (cheap), bottom paint was done by beaching (and after a while Coppercoat and periodic scrubbing, so similar to your solution). Insurance was probably the most expensive operating cost. Sails/rigging weren't too much cost: a new main every 7-8 years, spinnakers about the same, etc. Plus a Filipino boat captain to take care of her, serve as crew -- very useful, but not mandatory. In terms of major damage (over 20+ years, as far as I can remember): daggerboard broke once, dismasted twice (first time no significant damage, mast went right back up; second time needed a new mast+main), bowsprit broke once, and cracks in the beams required some additional kevlar wrapping once. I think scaling up from your own numbers and SOMA would work pretty well -- maybe +50% per 10ft (surely well below +100% per 10ft). But those are guesses.

 

The 60ft trimaran seems to cost significantly more than a 50ft cat -- Insurance and marinas are the biggest pain points, plus year 1 repairs/refit to get back to ocean-going mode (instead of day-charter mode) - although that also reflects a sailing program that's much more expanded & demanding than the 50ft cat. Ultimately once things stabilize, and the tri gets its own mooring, it shouldn't costs a ridiculous amount to operate. However, at this scale it starts to get very relevant to have a full-time boat captain to manage the boat, so the owner can focus on sailing! 60ftx50ft platform x 95ft mast is a lot of boat to self-manage...

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Great knowledge, Galacticair. I was really surprised how easy Paradox was to use. It was probably the easiest boat to sail I've ever sailed on. Mooring was easy stern to, docking was straightforward stern first. I know it's a different boat than a true ORMA, but its close I imagine. Realistically I should buy a house, not another boat. If I bought a boat I couldn't go for something sensible like a Lagoon or a Beneteau. I'll always have to sail fast, I think. Faamu Sami wasn't bad. Virgin Fire isn't bad. I just hate wood and water together. Large and affordable composite cats/tris aren't plentiful. I love Keith Notary's custom 60' cat, but the price is too high for what you get. I think a Formula 50 is too small, right? Prices are cheap for them though. My friend in Turkey just bought a F40 tri. Great weekender, but I wouldn't want to long distance cruise it. But that's me. Paradox had plenty of space for comfortable cruising, but I doubt any ORMAs come close.

 

This thread is a great resource for ORMA knowledge, btw. Gotta bookmark this page.

You're welcome, Soma.

 

On Lakota we also moor/anchor stern to, I agree it works surprisingly well (windlass & roller on aft center hull). Makes one wonder why more boats don't do that...

 

Formula 50 could be interesting. I grew up sailing a Crowther 50 racing catamran (former Top Gun, current E-Doc), in many ways the perfect boat for a fast sailing enthusiast - very fast, yet small enough to get into marinas easily, not too difficult to lift out, etc. Small inside, so not a family cruiser, but great for day cruising and 2-3 day shorthanded passages. Formula 50 trimarans from France would be similar I suspect, but yes, quite small inside (narrow hulls, etc). And not necessarily that fast as most are very old/heavy designs.

 

In comparison to the 50s, most ORMA 60s feel significantly bigger inside (especially length wise + headroom), so offer better accomodation in that respect, but certainly much more of a hassle to own or go out for a spin than a 50ft class.

A fleet of Top Guns would be awesome.

+100

 

Shame that the successor design (Raw Nerve & following boats) pretty much shit the bed with its pitchpoling issues (and dismastings). Top Gun never nosed dive (as far as I know - certainly never came remotely close to pitchpoling) - the high buoyancy flaring bows were simply amazing. A truly great design despite its age, very well built, etc..

 

I hear Room with a View was nice too (like Top Gun but slightly longer & heavier), though not sure where she is today (I heard SE Asia a few years ago).

 

If only there were more 50-55ft cats like that -- I believe Afterburner is the closest thing in the non-Crowther world...

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I think Nuddy said top gun is back in OZ. Details in the 'faster old AUS multis' thread.

 

RawNerve and Rojnutuduu where both raced very hard and pushed boundaries / records etc and no doubt some stiff competiton between the two of them means things break.

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Nobody has mentioned depreciation - surely the biggest cost and quite possibly the major factor holding back new builds.

 

 

Absolutely correct.

I have often said one would be crazy to build new if second hand is available.

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There are some amazing good deals on quality used multihulls.... its the best value for your money..

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http://www.denisonyachtsales.com/yacht-broker-listings/?rPage=/privatelabel/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=pp284110&units=Feet&boat_id=2433747&ybw=&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=62349&url=

 

Or this TRT 1200 also sounds fairly fast not sure about S2H though, but light and reasonable accommodation. But still no bridge deck.

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Re-sale value on those boats is zero, they are not a design that is recognised, well especially in Aust. An orma or a multi 50 were in the head lines and still are, so people are familiar with them. Yes you could up date them with some mods and yes they might sail well, but I don't think they will be up the pointy end of the fleet.

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you can pick up a up turned mod 70 for $750k with no rig and sails and a little work you would be back on the water a lot less than $3.5 m..

Are you kidding? Unless you have a link I would say you are dreaming.

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And we are sending our limited and precious baby's to Europe (Voodoo Spirit)........very sad and she will be missed

Yes we have lost one very capable ocean racer. Pity no-one here bought Voodoo Spirit.

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And we are sending our limited and precious baby's to Europe (Voodoo Spirit)........very sad and she will be missed

Yes we have lost one very capable ocean racer. Pity no-one here bought Voodoo Spirit.

 

hmm interesting as a price comparison to mine…. anybody know to where in Europa?

 

Same "trailerable" system - with the trailer…. but smaller.

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http://ayc-yachtbroker.com/multihulls

 

What about the Shuttleworth Tektron 50 for sale on the AYS site, not the fastest but light and cruising comforts as well (except bridge deck) best of both worlds. Bus stops fuggly, I recon janj could make this a real sweet ride.

 

At first I thought 265K Eurobucks was a bit much until I saw the other boat prices! Especially the one homebuilt, ply 47 footer (admittedly nice) for 300+. The Shuttleworth was built by a Canadian aerospace composites company for the owner so was reportedly well built. The boat was way ahead of it's time (1987) so I'd probably prefer it over the Outremer 45 for 300K.

 

One thing about Euroland is you do have a large variety to choose from multi-wise...

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http://ayc-yachtbroker.com/multihulls

 

What about the Shuttleworth Tektron 50 for sale on the AYS site, not the fastest but light and cruising comforts as well (except bridge deck) best of both worlds. Bus stops fuggly, I recon janj could make this a real sweet ride.

 

At first I thought 265K Eurobucks was a bit much until I saw the other boat prices! Especially the one homebuilt, ply 47 footer (admittedly nice) for 300+. The Shuttleworth was built by a Canadian aerospace composites company for the owner so was reportedly well built. The boat was way ahead of it's time (1987) so I'd probably prefer it over the Outremer 45 for 300K.

 

One thing about Euroland is you do have a large variety to choose from multi-wise...

IMO no comparison between Outremer 45 and the Shuttleworth. If you'd buy one you wouldn't be interested in the other.

IMO there are 3 'classes' of cruising cats that could be represented by Shuttleworth, Outremer and Fountaine-Pajot.

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