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I've been working on the S Boat painting from the photo I posted a few days ago, and I thought y'all might like to see how it's coming along. It's 12" X 24". I liked the composition of the photo,

Available as a sloop or yawl.

My old Schooner "Europe". The first yacht registered under the brand new European Union flag. Baptised  by Princess Grace Kelly of Monaco. We acquired the boat after she went around the world. Thank y

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On 8/29/2018 at 1:29 PM, Bull City said:

10 minutes of boat building magic. If this has been posted before, I apologize.

 

That's way better than Pornhub. Thank You Mr. City.

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On 8/30/2018 at 7:54 AM, Sail4beer said:

Horse Chicks gets a late start to the season.

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She's a beauty for sure, Beer

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18 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

That was the best angle I could get.

I knew I’d hear it!

Is it tied up to a bull rail? 

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2 hours ago, dougweibel said:

Not sure what this little guy is, but I thought it was cool enough to go look at twice.  At Henderson Harbor on Lake Ontario

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IMG_1571.jpg

 

Hmm.... isn't there an Atkin plywood cat-ketch design? Can't seem to find it at the moment

FB- Doug

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On 8/30/2018 at 3:29 AM, Bull City said:

10 minutes of boat building magic. If this has been posted before, I apologize.

very rarely I watch a full uTube vid , this was one .

Thank-you .

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4 hours ago, dougweibel said:

Not sure what this little guy is, but I thought it was cool enough to go look at twice.  At Henderson Harbor on Lake Ontario

IMG_1570.jpg

IMG_1571.jpg

Really nice. Can you post a larger photo?

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The boat building video feature frames and other components laminated on the shop floor. Is that inferior to cutting them from single pieces of Eastern Live Oak like Leo is doing? It sure seems like it would simplify the supply chain. Also, why combine inner strip planking with diagonal cold molding of outer skin(s)? I would have thought the former gives superior strength through fiber orientation along probable load axes.

God, what a beautiful boat! Color me envious. 

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Laminated frames & beams are better than sawn.

The strip planking is commonly done as the first layer to make the "mould" that the veneers are later laminated to. The Gougeon's detail this as one of the simplest and strongest methods of laminating a hull. It also makes a true monocoque hull in which the bulkheads are really just partitions and mostly not required for stiffness.

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3 minutes ago, viktor said:
35 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Bolger Chebacco perhaps?  Not certain. 

Bill Garden did something like that. Can't seem to find the info right now.

Chebacco is a sho-nuff pretty boat, reportedly they sail well too.

I thought the plywood cat-schooner

On 9/7/2018 at 1:19 PM, dougweibel said:

Not sure what this little guy is, but I thought it was cool enough to go look at twice.  At Henderson Harbor on Lake Ontario

IMG_1570.jpg

IMG_1571.jpg

was an Atkin but it could be a Garden...... my memory is what used t think it was. Flat bottom double ended cat schooner, supposed to be easy to build. I'm sure the design will pop up here any minute now to embarrass me.

FB- Doug

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On 9/3/2018 at 10:02 AM, Veeger said:

I'm always a sucker for catboats.  Really wanting to know whether the new rig on Silent Maid is all that the owner had hoped for. Those A Cats seem like a more 'practical' size than the Maid however.

 

Bolger did a lot of cat-yawls, including the Chebacco. Garden did several variants of his cat-schooner, l believe.

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On 9/7/2018 at 3:30 PM, SloopJonB said:

Laminated frames & beams are better than sawn.

The strip planking is commonly done as the first layer to make the "mould" that the veneers are later laminated to. The Gougeon's detail this as one of the simplest and strongest methods of laminating a hull. It also makes a true monocoque hull in which the bulkheads are really just partitions and mostly not required for stiffness.

So, not a lot of bulkheads and stringers taking up space below like some cold molded boats? Very good. Thanks for the explanation.

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5 hours ago, dougweibel said:

Sorry for the delay Bull.  I was off on a mountain biking holiday...

IMG_1571 (3).jpg

IMG_1570 (3).jpg

It is pretty. Too bad about the Companionway of Doom.

I wonder why there's an extra strip of wood around the edge? Double the varnish work in tight places, double the fun?

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18 hours ago, viktor said:

Yep, that's the one. A cutie...... unfortunate about the mast/companionway conflict though.

To our less-ancient SA'er brethren: an offset companionway being a death trap is a long running joke. Feel free to join in.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Too bad about the Companionway of Doom.

Yes, fortunately balanced by halyard winch. 

Also interesting that this Canadian dock has cleats. (See "Looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada" thread in CA.)

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Millennials on a 1938 Rhodes Astro. 

I'm biased (I have 2 and have co-raised more than a dozen sailing millennials) but I often hear boomer curmudgeons dissing the millennials. Ha!

 

Here's my take: The Millennials are better sailors than their boomer parents because, we sent them to local sailing clubs that have sailing-boating programs(see, we take the credit!). Not expensive around here and the kids, starting at like 10, think it's the cool thing to do, so they love it. They are taking advantage of the glut of cheap neglected glass boats. Some are learning the skills needed to care for wooden boats(somebody should give these kids a mainsail!). 

1938-rhodes-33_-jpg.156146

Further, they grew up rowing, then sailing little boats, Opti's, Turnabouts, Lazers, 420's, etc, etc. Simple, uncomplicated boats. They are still in those little boats zipping around in these harbors, $$$$ yachts wizzing by their decks. They started at the beginning, and now, they are natural sailors. 

'Natural sailors', how many of those do you know?

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I saw the Astro gracefully sailing through my harbor as we came in this week, (under power,...). Lovely sight this elegant narrow hull, everyone low in the water and smiling. 

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No sailor can resist dropping everything to watch another sailor, sail onto their mooring. The jib dropped to the deck as they rode the light Easterly on main alone past their mooring (off starboard) with a dinghy tied. 

 

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Winding the bow into the wind on the last of the boats way, they gently led the old boat toward the mooring. Were they short,...were they short!!??...

No. They've done this a million times in theirs lives already. They rounded up just shy of the ball and the current (which they read),  finished the move.

'Brilliant', I would say.

'Killin' it', they would say. 

 

1938-rhodes-33-5-jpg.156150

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

I'm biased (I have 2 and have co-raised more than a dozen sailing millennials) but I often hear boomer curmudgeons dissing the millennials. Ha!

Here's my take: The Millennials are better sailors than their boomer parents because, we sent them to local sailing clubs that have sailing-boating programs(see, we take the credit!). Not expensive around here and the kids, starting at like 10, think it's the cool thing to do, so they love it. They are taking advantage of the glut of cheap neglected glass boats. Some are learning the skills needed to care for wooden boats(somebody should give these kids a mainsail!). 

Further, they grew up rowing, then sailing little boats, Opti's, Turnabouts, Lazers, 420's, etc, etc. Simple, uncomplicated boats. They are still in those little boats zipping around in these harbors, $$$$ yachts wizzing by their decks. They started at the beginning, and now, they are natural sailors. 

'Natural sailors', how many of those do you know?

2

I am early-60s vintage. so kinda in between the boomers and millennials.  I too was raised on the water: sailing with parents from before I could walk, own rowing boat from age about 7, sails added when I was ~10, then sailing courses for most of the summer for most of my teens.

So I was a proper little water rat, and all aspects of boat handling came naturally.  Coming alongside other boats or quaysides under sail, landing on a slipway downwind under sail, picking up moorings under sail, sailing backwards off a crowded mooring, keeping a dinghy upright in a blow.  Those were just everyday things, and we had a strong incentive to get them right because our boats were wooden and we all painted and varnished them ourselves.

So I am delighted to hear of a new generation learning the same skills.

 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I am early-60s vintage. so kinda in between the boomers and millennials. 

Sorry Legs but that makes you a fully fledged Boomer.

1946 to 1964

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I'm a Gen-X-er and came up through the yacht club sailing programs in the 70s an 80s.  Best memories of my life.  My daughter next year will be old enough to start the sailing programs at Cottage Park YC and am looking forward to seeing her flourish (keeping fingers crossed).

She may be a little spoiled driving our larger boat.  She has already asked why the Optis dont have wheel steering.  LOL.

Here she is at 3:
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and 4:

19554396_1163755637063058_226112582638211367_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=000f28b1b080a6eadc4edb06f3bf2e25&oe=5C362884

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3 hours ago, kimbottles said:

In the yard at CSR Marine

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What is that beauty, Kim?

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I spent a little while with Chris Hood a couple years back trying to get an upsized version of the 32.  I still revisit the concept even now but at 1.5 - 1.6 times the size,( instead of 1.2 x we were originally talking) of the 32. Okay, well mebbe a smidge more relative freeboard--but only a smidge.  It takes a pretty big increase to get sitting headroom for a WC.  She's such a light displacement boat that even at 1.5 x, the bigger boat (priced by the pound) might still be doable.... 

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On 9/7/2018 at 3:51 PM, kinardly said:

The boat building video feature frames and other components laminated on the shop floor. Is that inferior to cutting them from single pieces of Eastern Live Oak like Leo is doing? It sure seems like it would simplify the supply chain. Also, why combine inner strip planking with diagonal cold molding of outer skin(s)? I would have thought the former gives superior strength through fiber orientation along probable load axes.

God, what a beautiful boat! Color me envious. 

The diagonals help with torsion loads, which can be otherwise very difficult to counter. Frameworks are very good at  resisting flex (think of a lattice tower); but they're very bad at preventing twist. Diagonal skins do that by referring loads along two or more axis at once.

I prefer laminating over sawing for curved pieces, tho sometimes there's no need for the extra work, or you can find a piece of wood with the grain naturally matching the curve you want.  One reason live oak is so popular for frames & knees: it has lots of growth curvature & crotches. I'm in the middle of a walnut job right now that uses both techniques extensively. For non-loaded and tight radius curves, I'll saw and piece. For curves greater than r=10" or so, or when I want structural, I'm resawing veneers & epoxy-laminating them. Laminating takes a lot of time, space, and clamps tho.

curve.JPG.aac3985be5e90de210f8fb4a6028d8dc.JPG

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It's just me, but I think ERICA would be prettier with a painted hull and bright finished house and coamings. I like bright hulls ok but in this case, there's too much wood for me to see. I think the hull is a great shape and sheer that would show the lines better without all the wood pieces distracting my eye. 

 

43849478065_f52458709f_o.jpg

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38 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Chuck Paine's ERICA at the docks. 45' cold molded cruiser/racer built in 2004. 

Nice looker.  But then, we established a few years ago that any varnished boat is pretty.

But if someone took away the varnish,  I would be a lot less wowed.  Just another "spirit" pastiche.

Back in the 1990s and 2000s, I loved Chuck Paine's designs.  Since then, I guess my tastes have changed a bit, but I am now much less of a fan: don't think many of Chuck's designs have aged well.

His original Frances 26 remains a classic.  In 1990, Meridian was a multiply innovative boat, breaking clear of the IOR and CCA legacies to use a clean modern hull shape and a layout optimised for cruising. His concept was developed very handsomely in his Bermuda series, especially the Morris 45, Morris 48, and the Able Apogee.  His Kanter yacht designs applied the same principles in a larger size.46 -- 

But along the way, there were many so-so boats.  His "classic" Morris Yachts — the 36, 38, 42 and 46 — were gorgeously old-timey, and helped by exemplary build quality.  Same with the similar boats he designed for Bowman (40/42, 45 and 48). However, looking back at them 25 years after the last design was launched, they impress much less: all had significant compromises in sailing ability, and all sacrificed too much functionality on the altar of that retro look.  His custom designs of that era include the overly self-conscious Gusto and the much more interesting polar boat Seal , but the latter appears to be mostly the work of his assistant Ed Joy.

I sometimes mused about what happened.  Chuck draws exquisite lines, and clearly has much versatility.  So why does so much of his output now look so-so?

The clue came in his writing about his current work on small Hersehoff-inspired daysailers.  In between some thoughtful denunciations on his own website of mass-produced disposability and the floods of cash poured into the pockets of the 1% since 2008, he wrote in 2013 on the Wooden Boat Forum of how he had to design to the tastes of that 1%: "I didn't particularly love, but needed, my wealthy yachtie clientele, to finance the portfolio I wanted to end my life with".

That's where it finally clicked: too much focus on his legacy.  It is a recipe which rarely ends well in any creative occupation because it is based on guessing what other people will want to see in you, 50 years or more down the road.  Few people see the future clearly enough for that.

In the end, the creative people whose reputation is most durable are those who follow their own creative instincts and let history do its own judging.  Immortality is rarely gained by consciously striving for it, and the world is littered with the visible legacies of many tried.  Ozymadias got away lightly compared with the many whose vanity immortalised themselves as the inverse of all they sought.  Mercifully, Chuck Paine is no Ozymandias, but there is a glimmer of that folly in his pickiness about clients.

Chuck is now describing one of his hugely-expensive retro boats as a "daysailor of investment quality".  Nonsense: even if a boat sells for more than it was paid for it, the upkeep costs make it a very poor investment.  

In any creative career, it's much better to simply enjoy each project for what it is.

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54 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

The diagonals help with torsion loads, which can be otherwise very difficult to counter. Frameworks are very good at  resisting flex (think of a lattice tower); but they're very bad at preventing twist. Diagonal skins do that by referring loads along two or more axis at once.

I prefer laminating over sawing for curved pieces, tho sometimes there's no need for the extra work, or you can find a piece of wood with the grain naturally matching the curve you want.  One reason live oak is so popular for frames & knees: it has lots of growth curvature & crotches. I'm in the middle of a walnut job right now that uses both techniques extensively. For non-loaded and tight radius curves, I'll saw and piece. For curves greater than r=10" or so, or when I want structural, I'm resawing veneers & epoxy-laminating them. Laminating takes a lot of time, space, and clamps tho.

curve.JPG.aac3985be5e90de210f8fb4a6028d8dc.JPG

Thank you for that explanation. Your shop looks like you set up in somebody's kitchen. I bet Mrs. D would have something to say about that. 

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5 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Thank you for that explanation. Your shop looks like you set up in somebody's kitchen. I bet Mrs. D would have something to say about that. 

I have several friends whose workshop furniture includes kitchen units repurposed after a renovation elsewhere.  Diarmuid's workshop looks to me like one of those.

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14 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Thank you for that explanation. Your shop looks like you set up in somebody's kitchen. I bet Mrs. D would have something to say about that. 

I think maybe he's building a kitchen, which it would make sense to do in a kitchen

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Nice looker.  But then, we established a few years ago that any varnished boat is pretty.

But if someone took away the varnish,  I would be a lot less wowed.  Just another "spirit" pastiche.

Back in the 1990s and 2000s, I loved Chuck Paine's designs.  Since then, I guess my tastes have changed a bit, but I am now much less of a fan: don't think many of Chuck's designs have aged well.

His original Frances 26 remains a classic.  In 1990, Meridian was a multiply innovative boat, breaking clear of the IOR and CCA legacies to use a clean modern hull shape and a layout optimised for cruising. His concept was developed very handsomely in his Bermuda series, especially the Morris 45, Morris 48, and the Able Apogee.  His Kanter yacht designs applied the same principles in a larger size.46 -- 

But along the way, there were many so-so boats.  His "classic" Morris Yachts — the 36, 38, 42 and 46 — were gorgeously old-timey, and helped by exemplary build quality.  Same with the similar boats he designed for Bowman (40/42, 45 and 48). However, looking back at them 25 years after the last design was launched, they impress much less: all had significant compromises in sailing ability, and all sacrificed too much functionality on the altar of that retro look.  His custom designs of that era include the overly self-conscious Gusto and the much more interesting polar boat Seal , but the latter appears to be mostly the work of his assistant Ed Joy.

I sometimes mused about what happened.  Chuck draws exquisite lines, and clearly has much versatility.  So why does so much of his output now look so-so?

The clue came in his writing about his current work on small Hersehoff-inspired daysailers.  In between some thoughtful denunciations on his own website of mass-produced disposability and the floods of cash poured into the pockets of the 1% since 2008, he wrote in 2013 on the Wooden Boat Forum of how he had to design to the tastes of that 1%: "I didn't particularly love, but needed, my wealthy yachtie clientele, to finance the portfolio I wanted to end my life with".

That's where it finally clicked: too much focus on his legacy.  It is a recipe which rarely ends well in any creative occupation because it is based on guessing what other people will want to see in you, 50 years or more down the road.  Few people see the future clearly enough for that.

In the end, the creative people whose reputation is most durable are those who follow their own creative instincts and let history do its own judging.  Immortality is rarely gained by consciously striving for it, and the world is littered with the visible legacies of many tried.  Ozymadias got away lightly compared with the many whose vanity immortalised themselves as the inverse of all they sought.  Mercifully, Chuck Paine is no Ozymandias, but there is a glimmer of that folly in his pickiness about clients.

Chuck is now describing one of his hugely-expensive retro boats as a "daysailor of investment quality".  Nonsense: even if a boat sells for more than it was paid for it, the upkeep costs make it a very poor investment.  

In any creative career, it's much better to simply enjoy each project for what it is.

For me, any discussion of Chuck Paine starts with the Kanter Bougainvillea 62...but maybe that's just me.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

In any creative career, it's much better to simply enjoy each project for what it is.

I'm an amateur painter, who has had a little commercial success. I completely agree with T-L as to approaching any creative project as something to enjoy. If I'm working on a painting, and I'm not enjoying it, it's almost always because it's not a good project for the way I paint. I scrape off the paint, and find something else.

Of course commissions sometimes require a bit of pain and suffering.

Now, where were we?

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I have several friends whose workshop furniture includes kitchen units repurposed after a renovation elsewhere.  Diarmuid's workshop looks to me like one of those.

Yes, that's a bathroom tearout re-purposed as a sharpening bench (sharpening is easier with lots of natural light). Tool storage beneath. The job is the world's second-most-complicated home office; the first-most is directly across the hall from this one. ;)

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bench.JPG.234e2917ae003efd65759955437e82f9.JPG

Curved door rails & panels on a 17'-6" radius molded of four 3/16" sawn veneers. One other advantage of lamination is you can compose adjacent doors & drawer fronts; the panels and rails on these elements slip-match face veneers from a single resawn board, repeating the knots and the panels' feather figure.

 To get this 11" radius curve in a rustic walnut (which has good color but lots of knots & grain runout, plus walnut is brittle), I had to laminate two 1/8"t strips:

sdbdsh.JPG.feeb4b950485595499f1150eba1ed535.JPG

The tight radii at the ends of the counters received sawn corners, while the long runs are laminated. These clients definitely fit Chuck's 1% description, and they have firm preferences + high expectations. But they also give me as much creative license as I wish to stake out. It's a healthy patronage dynamic, which isn't always the case (especially if vast wealth differentials are in play); patronizing has two distinct meanings. When  boundaries are respected, tho, it's magical for everyone. :) See: s/v Sliver. I've fitted out six or seven rooms in this house, and they just built an addition so we can keep working together. These sorts of 1%er, out-of-state money  jobs allow me to work for local folks with limited incomes. It's all good.

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3 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

These sorts of 1%er, out-of-state money  jobs allow me to work for local folks with limited incomes. It's all good.

That sounds like a good balance, @Diarmuid .  Keeping a toe in both camps.

I don't think I could work in an office like that: too much useless beauty to distract me.  But à chacun son goût :) 

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

That sounds like a good balance, @Diarmuid .  Keeping a toe in both camps.

I don't think I could work in an office like that: too much useless beauty to distract me.  But à chacun son goût :) 

The real distractions are outside that large picture window, which opens down a lovely pasture towards a lake, with eagles & antelope & wild horses literally frolicking in the front yard.  The purpose of a two-sided desk is so the client may choose Nature TV, or face away from the window & get some bloody work done!  Besides, they're easing into semi-retirement. From this point on, they work when they want to.

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6 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

The real distractions are outside that large picture window, which opens down a lovely pasture towards a lake, with eagles & antelope & wild horses literally frolicking in the front yard.  The purpose of a two-sided desk is so the client may choose Nature TV, or face away from the window & get some bloody work done!  Besides, they're easing into semi-retirement. From this point on, they work when they want to.

I have done some of my best work in a room with a very fine view.  I just close the blinds when I need to concentrate.  They are opened when I'm doing administrivia or phoning.

The one desirable which thing I have never had in my home office is a half-workable chair.  My four-legged managers wisely don't trust me to be left alone, and they don't want to be relegated to the door.  Having found it uncomfortable to sit on top of me, they climb into the chair first ... which leaves me perched on the outer edge of the chair while paws knead my back.

I sometimes fantasise about a custom-made desk chair which would accommodate us all in comfort ... but I fear that too much comfort would dent my creativity, and that dangling off the edge of the seat is much better than the stuff the religious do, such as tying barbed wire to their undies to heighten spiritual awareness. 

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3 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Maybe it's the satin/matt finish on ERICA. Her topsides look like a new tropical hardwood strip floor in a contemporary foyer. 

43849478065_f52458709f_o.jpg

1

Good comparison.  Maybe these retro varnish queens would look better if the wood was pre-aged, like jeans which are supplied in a worn state.

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18 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Still, I'm not a good judge as I prefer this hull shape, painted. :) 

 

Kris, I think you're onto something. Maybe it's been said, but the visibility of the wood planking distracts the eye from the shape of the hull (my eye, anyway). I knew someone who liked sculpted cars, and he always wanted them in silver, since he felt it drew your eye to, and showed the shape better than any other color. I wouldn't want a silver boat, but you get the point.

On Paine's boat, to me, the deck house doesn't seem to have had very much thought.

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14 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Kris, I think you're onto something. Maybe it's been said, but the visibility of the wood planking distracts the eye from the shape of the hull (my eye, anyway). I knew someone who liked sculpted cars, and he always wanted them in silver, since he felt it drew your eye to, and showed the shape better than any other color. I wouldn't want a silver boat, but you get the point.

On Paine's boat, to me, the deck house doesn't seem to have had very much thought.

Spot on, Mr. Bull, for my eye as well. I wondered if the house, which is kinda weak (sorry Chuck :) ), would improve taking center stage? To be fair, I think it's the deck and cockpit of this boat that gets most of the awes (I didn't take any photos from that angle-too bad). 

 

But it is a nice design overall to my eye following a good brief: "A balanced cruiser/racer for a coastal user".  I've always liked his older work, he sort of lost me on his bigger boats. 

I talked to Chuck Paine (he doesn't know me, I thought he was his brother Art,...), a few weeks ago in Tenants Harbor. He was rowing in from sailing his H 12 1/2. Just sayin,...

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

For me, any discussion of Chuck Paine starts with the Kanter Bougainvillea 62...but maybe that's just me.

Fufkin, I like the Kanter Bougainvillea 62.  But it seems to me to be merely a refinement of the Meridian concept, without moving the game on.  Probably the best of the Bermuda series, but just derivative.

That's my disappointment with Paine: he seemed to get stuck in ruts. Three ruts, to be precise: long keelers, retro-topped fin keelers for Morris, and the Bermuda series. 

Compare and contrast that with the versatility of his colleagues in Carter's design tower. Perry and Tanton both repeatedly stepped out of their comfort zones, and when they did they innovated.  Perry is still innovating: see Francis Lee, the carbon cutters, the Scandinavian double-ender, the small gaff-rigged pilothouse boat.  And on at least the first two of that list, he has scored a "wow -- why did nobody else do that" .

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Compare and contrast that with the versatility of his colleagues in Carter's design tower. Perry and Tanton both repeatedly stepped out of their comfort zones, and when they did they innovated.  Perry is still innovating: see Francis Lee, the carbon cutters, the Scandinavian double-ender, the small gaff-rigged pilothouse boat.  And on at least the first two of that list, he has scored a "wow -- why did nobody else do that" .

Paine didn't have the influence and mentoring of Bill Garden when he was a kid like Bob did. :D

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Fufkin, I like the Kanter Bougainvillea 62.  But it seems to me to be merely a refinement of the Meridian concept, without moving the game on.  Probably the best of the Bermuda series, but just derivative.

 

Legs,

Displacement/Length Ratio

Meridian 46:178

Bougainvillea 62: 121

Sail Area/Disp: 

Meridian 46: 17.64

Bougainvillea 62: 17.47

Length/Beam

Meridian 46: 3.5

Bougainvillea 62: 4.0

Also, at least one of the 62s had a slick on deck retractable bowsprit as well as water ballast. I always thought of the 62 as similar to the Sundeer 64 but w a little more draft.

*disp for Meridian from Chuck Paine literature calculated at 3/4 load, Bougainvillea #s from Sailboatdata

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Thanks for that comparison, Fufkin.  Looks like I hadn't peeked closely enough at the Kanter 62 -- I wasn't aware that it was so much lighter and narrower than Meridian.  My bad.

However, while the 62 looks like a step in the Sundeer direction, it is still quite a distance from it.  Similar ballast and displacement numbers, but the Sundeer has a much longer waterline. is significantly narrower, and has much fuller ends (at least at deck level).

Both designs are now about 25 years old.  Kanter's blurb includes some quaint reminders of that, such as their extolling of the bulb keel; rare at the time, but now the norm.

It would be interesting to see what either designer would do now with the same brief.

My own take would be to start with the Kanter, slim it a bit, broaden the stern, use a solent rig, and shave a lot of weight off the interior by doing what Beth&Evans did with Hawk: using cored furniture, dumping the second head, and culling the varnished wood.   

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No problem Legs,

You're right about waterline re the Sundeers. The 60 had about 59 ft. As far as I know Paine and Dashew shared a lot of ideas...where they differed was waterline and draft/upwind capabilities. I guess the rig height and roachier main as well.

The length to waterline ratios were about the same w the Meridian and Bougainvillea so I guess the hull shapes shared some similarities re overhang.

...and yeah I'd put the 62 on a furniture diet as well..

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15 minutes ago, fufkin said:

As far as I know Paine and Dashew shared a lot of ideas...where they differed was waterline and draft/upwind capabilities

Yes, that upwind issue is the only major reason why I could never really be a true fan of the Dashew boats.  I want a sailing boat to actually sail upwind, but they seem to prefer diesel when the wind goes much ahead of the beam.  There were some ugly threads on other websites where they extolled their boats while fudging the windward abilities, and they were not happy when called out on it.  Bit of a shitstorm, I recall.

I think that mast and rig technology has now moved on enough that Paine's higher masts could dump the backstay and use a much roachier main, so the gap there would close. 

As to waterline, I don't think there was much of a gap.  Some of the difference was Paine's preference for some bow rake, against Dashew's plumb wave-piercer, and I am not sure where I'd land on that one.  The rest is that Paine had a few feet of subtle overhang at the rear, just enough to reduce wetted surface in light winds, when Dashew would probably be dieselling.  I'd go with Paine on that one.

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On 9/19/2018 at 3:44 PM, TwoLegged said:

As to waterline, I don't think there was much of a gap.  Some of the difference was Paine's preference for some bow rake, against Dashew's plumb wave-piercer, and I am not sure where I'd land on that one.  The rest is that Paine had a few feet of subtle overhang at the rear, just enough to reduce wetted surface in light winds, when Dashew would probably be dieseling.  I'd go with Paine on that one.

The larger the boat, the less the importance of a bit of additional LWL. Hull speed of at LWL=50' is 9.5kts. To bump that up a quarter of a knot requires going to LWL=53' . And, since sailboats usually sail at some fraction of the wind speed, a boat with hull speed over 9 kts is going to spend a lot of time at speeds where wave drag is not a huge factor. The designer has a little wiggle room to consider other factors like anchoring, getting in and out of the dinghy, chances of getting green water on deck, behavior when overloaded at the start of a cruise, light air performance (as noted above), etc. 

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On 9/18/2018 at 4:58 PM, Kris Cringle said:

I wondered if the house, which is kinda weak (sorry Chuck :) ), would improve taking center stage?

The house looks like my old J22's, which had nice lines for a white production boat, but I'd expect more on a custom design. Perhaps that's what the owner wanted.

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Was chatting with a colleague yesterday and he got to talking about a job he had installing a lithium bank on Aileen. He's not a boat guy and his takeaway was: "so fancy, they didn't let me wear shoes!"

Pretty interesting:

 

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On 9/21/2018 at 4:54 PM, Kris Cringle said:

I'm drawn to the Rozinante.  

29893132717_91f6f4bc51_o.jpg

It's a very appealing design that gets better as you circle it. Only a few boats look like they're moving while on a dock, and this is one. 

29893132987_7182955a1a_o.jpg

 

Saw a 1965 ‘glass hull on Annapolis CL last week for $750. I’m so deep into Polynavicular Moribus that I couldn’t even respond. Sad for me great for someone else I hope.

I'm going to check on it again as I sip a little sailors courage

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9 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Saw a 1965 ‘glass hull on Annapolis CL last week for $750. I’m so deep into Polynavicular Moribus that I couldn’t even respond.

Oh, Beer, that's sad.  You are punishing yourself here by using the wrong reasoning tools.

You need to follow Rasputin, (the original Russian one, not our esteemed local memoirist @Rasputin22).  Grigori Rasputin reputedly asked:

"Certainly our Savior and Holy Fathers have denounced sin, since it is the work of the Evil One.
But how can you drive out evil except by sincere repentance?
And how can you sincerely repent if you have not sinned?"

So, as you see, by Rasputin's logic the path to virtue is by sinning-and-repentance.  More sin means more repentance means more virtue.  Which means buy more boats so that you can later repent of each bout of PNM.

$750 on that glass Rosinante could help save your soul.