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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

If you want to go down that road, be a it more consequent, in my view.

Here is one project I am really looking forward to: Elida, drawn by Thomas Tison for a well-known German sailor: 

SY_ELIDA_rendering-800.jpg

SY_ELIDA_rendering_2-800-.jpg

Currently being built, but few updates and fewer recent pics exist. 

Absolutely terrible renderings.

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I've been working on the S Boat painting from the photo I posted a few days ago, and I thought y'all might like to see how it's coming along. It's 12" X 24". I liked the composition of the photo,

Rozinante 16" X 20"  

Rather ordinary 4ksb compared to most in this thread, but I still Admire what is easily the luckiest boat on the harbor here. (for those who may not recognize her in the rare "mast vertical

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32 minutes ago, Bull City said:

If you are referring to me, I did not attend an Ivy League college.

I hadn't read Waring's "A SPIRIT-OF-TRADITION CLASS MANIFESTO," but I agree with your statement that anything goes - so long as it has a significant amount of brightwork and a gold cove stripe. :P

How do you capture the spirit of a spirit? 

No, sorry, did not mean to imply that - and per se there is not necessarily something bad about it. I rather meant 'you' as 'from the owner's perspective'. 

How do you capture the spirit of a spirit? What is the essence of the tradition? Very hard to say. Most designers get it wrong, but only few as much as Botin in this example, in my view. 

The same goes for cars. I love the series that Frank Stephenson does on car design, here is one episode in which he shares his view on how he would re-design the F-40. It gives you a good perspective of how hard it is to find the defining lines and how to work them.

or the E-Type:

 

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2 hours ago, Matagi said:

If you want to go down that road, be a it more consequent, in my view.

Here is one project I am really looking forward to: Elida, drawn by Thomas Tison for a well-known German sailor: 

SY_ELIDA_rendering-800.jpg

SY_ELIDA_rendering_2-800-.jpg

Currently being built, but few updates and fewer recent pics exist. 

Is there such a thing as to much wood.

Elida has a hull weight of one ton so maybe carbon with a stick in timber veneer along with composite teak look alike on the decks.

4559A552-3D56-43D2-84B9-DA7D0F7B709F.jpeg.9a735d97e48259fddf95b2241d2725e2.jpeg

Is this a case of to much wood.

 

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

In the last issue of WoodenBoat (#279 March/April 2021) "Aboard" features OUTLIER, a 55' new Spirit of Tradition cold-molded sloop "that challenges preconceived notions of the class - and of tradition."

The background write-up suggests that her owner intended to shake things up in the class, and seems to have succeeded. Do teak decks and a gold cove stripe constitute tradition?

 

image.thumb.png.aba687b0b5d473630e6c94940810d051.png

Tradition is not how I would describe that barn door arse eww yuk.

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34 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Is there such a thing as to much wood.

Elida has a hull weight of one ton so maybe carbon with a stick in timber veneer along with composite teak look alike on the decks.

4559A552-3D56-43D2-84B9-DA7D0F7B709F.jpeg.9a735d97e48259fddf95b2241d2725e2.jpeg

Is this a case of to much wood.

 

No, frankly, I still believe wood is the way to go, if you want a still affordable one-off racing yacht for amateur racing and occasional cruising with some amenities. GRP requires expensive molds, carbon requires expensive skills (and molds), so...

Here is 'Gloria', she is not cold-molded, but double planked over a rather traditional set-up of ca. 30 or 40 frames. She weighs ca. 5.9 tonnes, very low for a 40 ft yacht. She was also designed as a reminiscence and spirit of tradition yacht in a certain way, following the lines of traditional smaller 'Jollenkreuzer' from Germany's Elbe and Wadden Sea area. Very competitive and sailed single-handedly in the Silverrudder, as seen here (Pic: Blur.se). 

silverrudder15-8.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

If you are referring to me, I did not attend an Ivy League college.

I hadn't read Waring's "A SPIRIT-OF-TRADITION CLASS MANIFESTO," but I agree with your statement that anything goes - so long as it has a significant amount of brightwork and a gold cove stripe. :P

How do you capture the spirit of a spirit? 

Spend lotsa money

...

No, more than that!

FB- Doug

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9 hours ago, Bull City said:

In the last issue of WoodenBoat (#279 March/April 2021) "Aboard" features OUTLIER, a 55' new Spirit of Tradition cold-molded sloop "that challenges preconceived notions of the class - and of tradition."

The background write-up suggests that her owner intended to shake things up in the class, and seems to have succeeded. Do teak decks and a gold cove stripe constitute tradition?

image.thumb.png.fb499bfd3c012db3413eaa0208c36337.png

image.thumb.png.aba687b0b5d473630e6c94940810d051.png

She is VERY fast. She's in our class, we came close in the last Castine-Brooklin race, but there is normally no way we can beat her. Of course, a big part of that is that she is very well sailed. I know a couple of her crew.

The Captain is a great guy, I've been aboard  and, while she's not my type, she's very nice, carbon winch drums and boarding ladder and all. 

The owners of some of these boats are very serious about racing. We race our summer home. It's all good.  These are beautiful races to watch, beautiful races to be in.

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11 hours ago, Bull City said:

In the last issue of WoodenBoat (#279 March/April 2021) "Aboard" features OUTLIER, a 55' new Spirit of Tradition cold-molded sloop "that challenges preconceived notions of the class - and of tradition."

The background write-up suggests that her owner intended to shake things up in the class, and seems to have succeeded. Do teak decks and a gold cove stripe constitute tradition?

image.thumb.png.fb499bfd3c012db3413eaa0208c36337.png

image.thumb.png.aba687b0b5d473630e6c94940810d051.png

I'd say the name says it all....

At least it doesn't have black sails!

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Outlier is an awesome machine.  The transom is big, but the aft locker is pretty awesome as a result. Similarly the forward locker you could easily have a small cabin within that volume.   Given the beam overall, she is a really comfortable boat to hang out on with a sizable group.   Given her home port in Nantucket, a lot of the crew was rightly worried about lobster buoys when first racing ERR weekend.  What we’ve learned is, if you’re going 15 knots or so, you’ll slow to about 12 and the buoy will get launched out the back and off you go.  If you are unlucky enough to catch two with the code zero up... well then you stop. 

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4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

 

She is VERY fast. She's in our class, we came close in the last Castine-Brooklin race, but there is normally no way we can beat her. Of course, a big part of that is that she is very well sailed. I know a couple of her crew.

The Captain is a great guy, I've been aboard  and, while she's not my type, she's very nice, carbon winch drums and boarding ladder and all. 

The owners of some of these boats are very serious about racing. We race our summer home. It's all good.  These are beautiful races to watch, beautiful races to be in.

This is somewhat of the problem when people (good people, most of the time,  OBTW) start to lose track of the goal...when having the fastest spirit of tradition boat matters...or the vintage race car.  When the original goal had nothing to do with "being the fastest" boat our there per se.  

While all of these folks, and boats, are well beyond my reach...and far be it for me to tell them how to spend their money, as after all, it is their money.  This might be the first real step into the beginnings of the end of "Spirit of Tradition."  In my mind this boat is "pretend to be tradition just enough to make sure I win..."  Which is a bit sad, IMHO.

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16 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Is there such a thing as to much wood.

Elida has a hull weight of one ton so maybe carbon with a stick in timber veneer along with composite teak look alike on the decks.

4559A552-3D56-43D2-84B9-DA7D0F7B709F.jpeg.9a735d97e48259fddf95b2241d2725e2.jpeg

Is this a case of to much wood.

 

I think so. Some must be surprised to see wood, all but doomed in boatbuilding decades ago, to now be in the cutting edge, state of the art designs. 

But just because wood composite is now a design tool (for good reasons), you don't have to see it to know that. 

But like a log cabin, somebody always wants a bright hulled sailboat. 

Remember FOGGY? 

FOGGY.jpg.4b8a1d0d6f851e0bfa3b9ebecc472688.jpg

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7 hours ago, Crash said:

This is somewhat of the problem when people (good people, most of the time,  OBTW) start to lose track of the goal...when having the fastest spirit of tradition boat matters...or the vintage race car.  When the original goal had nothing to do with "being the fastest" boat our there per se.  

While all of these folks, and boats, are well beyond my reach...and far be it for me to tell them how to spend their money, as after all, it is their money.  This might be the first real step into the beginnings of the end of "Spirit of Tradition."  In my mind this boat is "pretend to be tradition just enough to make sure I win..."  Which is a bit sad, IMHO.

Foils would be nice. :)

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:16 AM, Whinging Pom said:

Looks only its owner could love.  Bit like a Dashew.

Form and function - I like the look because it looks like it would work.

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On 3/21/2021 at 5:47 AM, Priscilla said:

True very few yachts have really grabbed my attention like Grand Prix and a old mate purchased her many years ago and what a cracker balanced mile eater she is.

Sure the cockpit layout is dated and one double berth could be considered either opulent or impractical but her sea manners are exemplary.

She is now once again back on the market looking stunning after receiving a comprehensive birthday a few years back.

Built to no rule by Philip Wilson one of an impressive handful of large Laurie Davidson wooden taonga the first inner skin is longitudinal strip kauri and that honey look is just how she presents.

Kauri is a protected species here in the home of the Cup and these finely crafted beauties are not only a testament to the skills of the boatbuilders but also the magnificent timber it is.

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/boating-nz/20170301/283523681160486

 

4E7E2C12-9EB2-4DBB-96E6-F743F76F57B7.jpeg.45f51308200e0f64ba4b75ae48b0d375.jpeg

 

 

The Davidson I always admired has finally sold (a steal at the price)... https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/davidson-52-exceptional-racer-cruiser-highly-competitive/243051 

I couldn't tell you how many times she's overtaken me like we were standing still....1-IMG_9000-002-940x627.jpg

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On 3/28/2021 at 5:14 PM, Matagi said:

Judging from Warings 'manifesto' (what a pompous use of this word): basically anything goes. As long as some sort of committee (probably blokes that come from the same Ivy League background as you) agree or can be convinced that you have done something with some idea of how a classic boat 2.0 should look like in mind.

Whether OUTLIER is a spirit of tradition boat or not I will leave to those who are concerned with determining what things "really" are... but, I think you're right in sensing that the Spirit of Tradition moniker is infinitely stretchable. 

It's a weird betwixt-and-between category by definition.  It's for people who want to race in classic yacht regattas but not in classic yachts.  That's an odd starting point, and the resulting boats are neither fish nor foul: not actually traditional, but also not taking full advantage of the speed giving qualities of modern yachts.

A few years ago the Bill Tripp designed, Brooklin Boat Yard built AURORA raced in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta as a part of the Spirit of Tradition class.  AURORA is a very cool boat, but she's a more or less unrepentant early 90's IMS racer without a trace of concession to traditional aesthetics.

Personally, I didn't really care.  The ERR is not serious racing.  I think the race committee still refuses to hear protests.  But it was also clear why she was there.  AURORA was built by BBY, she was a seminal project for them.  It's stretching things to call her Spirit of Tradition, but it was the only reasonable category for her to compete in.  Since BBY sponsors the event and and Steve White (owner of BBY) has been organizing the ERR since 1985 if she wanted in she was going to be able to join -- she also made of wood, and so is theoretically eligible. 

However, I think those who felt she was contrary to the spirit of the ERR have a reasonable point.  When people come to the ERR to participate or spectate it's not because they want to see a fleet of IMS boats.  Watching her roll Concordia Yawls and Friendship Sloops on her way to the windward mark, she did seem out of place.

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1 hour ago, MFH125 said:

Whether OUTLIER is a spirit of tradition boat or not I will leave to those who are concerned with determining what things "really" are... but, I think you're right in sensing that the Spirit of Tradition moniker is infinitely stretchable. 

It's a weird betwixt-and-between category by definition.  It's for people who want to race in classic yacht regattas but not in classic yachts.  That's an odd starting point, and the resulting boats are neither fish nor foul: not actually traditional, but also not taking full advantage of the speed giving qualities of modern yachts.

A few years ago the Bill Tripp designed, Brooklin Boat Yard built AURORA raced in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta as a part of the Spirit of Tradition class.  AURORA is a very cool boat, but she's a more or less unrepentant early 90's IMS racer without a trace of concession to traditional aesthetics.

Personally, I didn't really care.  The ERR is not serious racing.  I think the race committee still refuses to hear protests.  But it was also clear why she was there.  AURORA was built by BBY, she was a seminal project for them.  It's stretching things to call her Spirit of Tradition, but it was the only reasonable category for her to compete in.  Since BBY sponsors the event and and Steve White (owner of BBY) has been organizing the ERR since 1985 if she wanted in she was going to be able to join -- she also made of wood, and so is theoretically eligible. 

However, I think those who felt she was contrary to the spirit of the ERR have a reasonable point.  When people come to the ERR to participate or spectate it's not because they want to see a fleet of IMS boats.  Watching her roll Concordia Yawls and Friendship Sloops on her way to the windward mark, she did seem out of place.

I’ve done a lot of classic racing at the ERR and other events.  I agree that this is not real racing for folks like myself that actually do race seriously.  What I always find really funny (or odd) is the lengths people will go to exclude others from a fun event.  The ERR has remained the best of these events precisely because Steve has basically welcomed anyone willing to join the party in a wood boat.  But there will always be heavily bearded fellows covered in pine tar whining even if you bring a a boat designed in 1936 that happens to be fast.  Never mind a lot of these whiners have no idea what a properly trimmed sail looks like or have any notion of tactics.  It’s obviously not just classic events that suffer from this phenomenon, PHRF authorities all over the country have notoriously excluded competitors for bs reasons and then wondered exasperated where all of the competition went.  
 

the SOT boats in these classic events keep it interesting.  Sure some of them aren’t really traditional in appearance, but it’s really interesting to see how things are evolving and also to see just how competitive some really old boats still are against these newer designs.   A lot of these boats, Outlier being a good example, exist because of the wooden boat racing scene.  These boats support quite a few people in and out of the marine industry.  Also, Outlier is an interesting case because while that boat conceived from a limited SOT racing background almost entirely on Nantucket and sometimes in Newport, her development has led to a far more wide ranging program that includes offshore racing as well as many more races outside of her home waters.  That’s all good for sailing in general.  

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I hope you're not interpreting me as a pine-tar covered gatekeeper.  The final paragraph was me sympathizing with someone else's perspective, mainly.

10 hours ago, eliboat said:

the SOT boats in these classic events keep it interesting.  Sure some of them aren’t really traditional in appearance, but it’s really interesting to see how things are evolving and also to see just how competitive some really old boats still are against these newer designs.   A lot of these boats, Outlier being a good example, exist because of the wooden boat racing scene.

Your comment about OUTLIER existing because of the wooden boat racing scene gets to the heart of what I was trying to say.  Spirit of Tradition is more about "the scene" than it is a coherent design style, in my opinion.  The reason to put teak decks and a boxy varnished deckhouse on OUTLIER's hull is because of the kinds of events you want to participate in and the people you want to sail with are part of that "scene."  People gate-keep these definitions, in part, because its more social than anything else.

I brought up AURORA as an example of the definition of SOT being stretched way further to accommodate a boat for purely social reasons.  AURORA looks out of place at the ERR because the people who own and race IMS boats today are part of a different "scene" -- one that's more competitive and cares less about varnish, tradition, traditional rope work, etc.  Most of them wouldn't have much interest in participating in the ERR even if their boats were eligible (as AURORA happens to be).

I agree that the looseness and "come one, come all" attitude of the ERR is a huge part of what makes it fun.

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On 3/28/2021 at 9:44 PM, Matagi said:

No, frankly, I still believe wood is the way to go, if you want a still affordable one-off racing yacht for amateur racing and occasional cruising with some amenities. GRP requires expensive molds, carbon requires expensive skills (and molds), so...

Here is 'Gloria', she is not cold-molded, but double planked over a rather traditional set-up of ca. 30 or 40 frames. She weighs ca. 5.9 tonnes, very low for a 40 ft yacht. She was also designed as a reminiscence and spirit of tradition yacht in a certain way, following the lines of traditional smaller 'Jollenkreuzer' from Germany's Elbe and Wadden Sea area. Very competitive and sailed single-handedly in the Silverrudder, as seen here (Pic: Blur.se). 

silverrudder15-8.jpg

 

Matagi, beautiful boat, do you have any more information on her?

I recently moved to Switzerland and have been enjoying learning about central European boating.  A whole world of boats and designers I had never heard of before.  Varnished hulls seem way more popular here than they are in the states.

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3 hours ago, MFH125 said:

I hope you're not interpreting me as a pine-tar covered gatekeeper.  The final paragraph was me sympathizing with someone else's perspective, mainly.

Your comment about OUTLIER existing because of the wooden boat racing scene gets to the heart of what I was trying to say.  Spirit of Tradition is more about "the scene" than it is a coherent design style, in my opinion.  The reason to put teak decks and a boxy varnished deckhouse on OUTLIER's hull is because of the kinds of events you want to participate in and the people you want to sail with are part of that "scene."  People gate-keep these definitions, in part, because its more social than anything else.

I brought up AURORA as an example of the definition of SOT being stretched way further to accommodate a boat for purely social reasons.  AURORA looks out of place at the ERR because the people who own and race IMS boats today are part of a different "scene" -- one that's more competitive and cares less about varnish, tradition, traditional rope work, etc.  Most of them wouldn't have much interest in participating in the ERR even if their boats were eligible (as AURORA happens to be).

I agree that the looseness and "come one, come all" attitude of the ERR is a huge part of what makes it fun.

Your point stands, but you actually missed mine, or maybe I wasn’t clear.  The owner of Outlier had a very classic SOT boat prior to having Outlier built, and his experience there drove his decision.  

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There are few Spirit of Tradition boats that really make the cut and stand out on their own. Most will always be just a very expensive compromise. Laughed at by those who have a really fast boat and are committed to racing, loathed by those who think that a boat only 'truly' becomes classic over time, or, sometimes with the story it has to tell.

Let me give you one example: Komatsu Azzura is 'just' a S&S 34. But the stories she has to tell? The S2H races, the British PM buying one on the spot, being bought on a credit card by Michael Winfield? The twists and tweaks he made to it? These are stories that make up a heritage, a truly classic.

Quickpoint.Azzurro-549x351.png

That is something entirely different than bonding some carbon hull together with teak deck and calling it a classic or 'in the spirit of'. Try it, but you probably didn't really get the spirit.

Don't get me wrong. There can be beauty there. I like the Wally Nano very much. The large Wallys are mostly great looking boats. But they don't try to emulate something that just isn't there. They create their own style, and much of it, I think, has to do with Luca Bassani being a master of it. That is his angle towards the whole design thing. Don't make it 'look like', make it 'be' stylish in a unique way.

wallynano_biancaneve_3.jpg

If you want to just emulate style, things become very tricky, in my view. You really need to have a look at many, many previous designs and pick the right things that you want to 'cite'. Otherwise, you end up with a chimera. And -sorry- Outlier is one. The transom is wrong from all angles, that wooden wheel in this size looks like a joke, the bowsprit is at an angle that just makes my eyes kaputt and don't get me started on the cabinhouse. Especially when it has this beige sprayhood on. No, that don't impress me much.

botin-55-outlier.jpg

Here is one example where things did work out, in my view:

Loony.jpg

Olanja and Loony were designed by Georg Nissen, they are 39ft in length, woodcore/ glass hull. She was built following the lines of 'Seekreuzers', from the 50s and 60s. There are many modern features, such as the sail plan with a big main and a smallish jib, or the elevated winches or of course the keel and rudder. And there are many hints to the past Nissen got right. Look at how he sacrificed cabinhouse length, in order to put the mast in front of it, and protected the area by elongating the cabin sides (a 'Wassergarten'), a feature that was common in -for example- Abeking & Rasmussen's Hansajolle, and many wooden boats of that era. (Here is more: https://b-www.facebook.com/RobbeBerkingClassics/videos/362279284580698/)

No, if you want to have something to show your guys from the country club: do it.

But don't be surprised if guys like me go 'meh'. 

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6 hours ago, MFH125 said:

  Varnished hulls seem way more popular here than they are in the states.

High latitudes, fresh water, short seasons tend to make it more ‘practical’ (?)

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23 minutes ago, Matagi said:

There are few Spirit of Tradition boats that really make the cut and stand out on their own. Most will always be just a very expensive compromise. Laughed at by those who have a really fast boat and are committed to racing, loathed by those who think that a boat only 'truly' becomes classic over time, or, sometimes with the story it has to tell.

Let me give you one example: Komatsu Azzura is 'just' a S&S 34. But the stories she has to tell? The S2H races, the British PM buying one on the spot, being bought on a credit card by Michael Winfield? The twists and tweaks he made to it? These are stories that make up a heritage, a truly classic.

Quickpoint.Azzurro-549x351.png

That is something entirely different than bonding some carbon hull together with teak deck and calling it a classic or 'in the spirit of'. Try it, but you probably didn't really get the spirit.

Don't get me wrong. There can be beauty there. I like the Wally Nano very much. The large Wallys are mostly great looking boats. But they don't try to emulate something that just isn't there. They create their own style, and much of it, I think, has to do with Luca Bassani being a master of it. That is his angle towards the whole design thing. Don't make it 'look like', make it 'be' stylish in a unique way.

wallynano_biancaneve_3.jpg

If you want to just emulate style, things become very tricky, in my view. You really need to have a look at many, many previous designs and pick the right things that you want to 'cite'. Otherwise, you end up with a chimera. And -sorry- Outlier is one. The transom is wrong from all angles, that wooden wheel in this size looks like a joke, the bowsprit is at an angle that just makes my eyes kaputt and don't get me started on the cabinhouse. Especially when it has this beige sprayhood on. No, that don't impress me much.

botin-55-outlier.jpg

Here is one example where things did work out, in my view:

Loony.jpg

Olanja and Loony were designed by Georg Nissen, they are 39ft in length, woodcore/ glass hull. She was built following the lines of 'Seekreuzers', from the 50s and 60s. There are many modern features, such as the sail plan with a big main and a smallish jib, or the elevated winches or of course the keel and rudder. And there are many hints to the past Nissen got right. Look at how he sacrificed cabinhouse length, in order to put the mast in front of it, and protected the area by elongating the cabin sides (a 'Wassergarten'), a feature that was common in -for example- Abeking & Rasmussen's Hansajolle, and many wooden boats of that era. (Here is more: https://b-www.facebook.com/RobbeBerkingClassics/videos/362279284580698/)

No, if you want to have something to show your guys from the country club: do it.

But don't be surprised if guys like me go 'meh'. 

Nobody really cares if you go meh because people build boats for themselves not for your benefit.   

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14 minutes ago, eliboat said:

people build boats for themselves

tenor.gif?itemid=8694408

That was quite funny. Especially with this one. 

You do remember the title of this thread, right?

Look, it's ok that you love her. And I'm sure she has many qualities. Maybe the fastest great forward locker in New England or something, I don't know/care. But she is more Songsan than E-Type.

Definitely not material for this thread.

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8 hours ago, Matagi said:

tenor.gif?itemid=8694408

That was quite funny. Especially with this one. 

You do remember the title of this thread, right?

Look, it's ok that you love her. And I'm sure she has many qualities. Maybe the fastest great forward locker in New England or something, I don't know/care. But she is more Songsan than E-Type.

Definitely not material for this thread.

Not for for you... but someone brought it up so I guess it was.  Anyways different strokes for different folks mehtagi 

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On 4/2/2021 at 9:35 AM, Matagi said:

 that wooden wheel in this size looks like a joke

botin-55-outlier.jpg

 

The BBY wheels are gorgeous. I'm one of the few BBY customs without one, the wife had me price one. Whew! But they are beautiful. 

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49 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

C&N didn't stay in business for 250 years by hiding shit behind liners.

Understood.  However, there are numerous 'apparent' water stains on some areas on this boat.  It wasn't hidden by the builder but it may be 'hidden' nonetheless.  Look again....

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4 hours ago, Veeger said:

If I really WAS looking for a cruising boat...  

This could work.

https://swiftsureyachts.com/camper-nicholson-48-raised-salon-ketch-salt/

Interior liner might hide something, but...

Maybe I SHOULD be looking for a cruising boat

Nah.

Crikey what a very detailed selection of photos with the listing.

This hawse pipe thingy would drive me crazy.

86E6490F-C0F1-4599-A2CF-E5B106EA39D5.thumb.jpeg.3eacae2f43cf4532a1cc8ac15332d0ff.jpeg
 

‘’ On going interior varnish upgrades” is that a bit like never ending.

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Came by the Viaduct on the bike here in the home of the Cup and what did I see but a for sale sign on Arcturus one of my favourite sailboats.

Only a cool $750,000.

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Another shot of another favourite...

Charlotte.

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4 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

She was berthed on Pittwater for several years after her restoration. Very Edwardian interior.

Edwardian?

7e7f7a915da37bbdbf67e199ab6e6e6a.jpg

Our boat came with shredded upholstery also.

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18 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Red boat, spoon bow (2018). 

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DSC09858.thumb.JPG.1a7c030f9c6d1a143650fed96062bfb6.JPG

hmmmm. seperated at birth?

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2 minutes ago, Matagi said:

DSC09858.thumb.JPG.1a7c030f9c6d1a143650fed96062bfb6.JPG

hmmmm. seperated at birth?

Closely related, at least. One Nielsen element experts tell me is the turn at the coach top. It's a little deeper and more pronounced on the red boat. But this one could be Nielsen drawn as well. Less ample toe rail too but that could have been replaced. Where is (was) the white boat?

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46 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Closely related, at least. One Nielsen element experts tell me is the turn at the coach top. It's a little deeper and more pronounced on the red boat. But this one could be Nielsen drawn as well. Less ample toe rail too but that could have been replaced. Where is (was) the white boat?

That's Oslo, Aker Brygge, the marina in the city. Very nice place.

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35 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I like the cabin tops but wonder why no port holes in the cabin trunk face? Let’s that fresh air in.

001AC81F-0DDD-4304-A713-FB02A9BC6F5D.jpeg

'Cos opening portholes have a habit of leaking, even if the crew remember to close them

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27 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

'Cos opening portholes have a habit of leaking, even if the crew remember to close them

I can only underline that. I have two of those beautiful eyes on Diva. Wish I did not.

DSC04196.thumb.JPG.a38cf4de1a6f3c7d7aa3b08fe90aeee6.JPGPlus: a soft spot if green water comes over you don't want to have.

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2 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Closely related, at least. One Nielsen element experts tell me is the turn at the coach top. It's a little deeper and more pronounced on the red boat. But this one could be Nielsen drawn as well. Less ample toe rail too but that could have been replaced. Where is (was) the white boat?

From the Book of Aage. I have it. In my household, only I am allowed to touch it :).

Note the offset entry in the making in the back.

422056169_20210416_142421(1).thumb.jpg.5c77e8456c6c4f4e2443e8560894ce6b.jpg

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 4:54 PM, Priscilla said:

Another shot of another favourite...

Charlotte.

BE027739-77B3-4BAC-B217-BDAE5E6E5548.thumb.jpeg.0b1982af026b11df3748ffa436848284.jpeg

That is a beautiful photo!

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4 hours ago, Matagi said:

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hmmmm. seperated at birth?

Looks Ted Hoodish. Maybe an early Maas Little Harbor sans mizzen??

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2 hours ago, Matagi said:

From the Book of Aage. I have it. In my household, only I am allowed to touch it :).

Note the offset entry in the making in the back.

422056169_20210416_142421(1).thumb.jpg.5c77e8456c6c4f4e2443e8560894ce6b.jpg

 

The owner of this Nielsen lent me the book. The book is well done. 

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I like his double enders but prefer his square sterns. 

1275955660_SAYONARAcopy.thumb.jpg.23b8343599b61d130cd8b0afab7b98df.jpg

 

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On 4/16/2021 at 11:28 AM, rstone said:

Looks Ted Hoodish. Maybe an early Maas Little Harbor sans mizzen??

I agree, but I think more likely made by Tor in Japan.  
 

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Yes, likely. Think Ted's 1st Robin Too a 36 footer also. 

Early Little Harbors had wonderful cast bronze stem chocks. That and the cove stripe detail, the giveaway.

Screenshot_2021-02-23-20-52-19.png

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20 hours ago, rstone said:

Yes, likely. Think Ted's 1st Robin Too a 36 footer also. 

Early Little Harbors had wonderful cast bronze stem chocks. That and the cove stripe detail, the giveaway.

Screenshot_2021-02-23-20-52-19.png

 

On 4/16/2021 at 5:28 PM, rstone said:

Looks Ted Hoodish. Maybe an early Maas Little Harbor sans mizzen??

Very very hard to say. In the end, I agree, it is probably a Ted Hood design, not a Nielsen. 

It is very close to Butterfly and Lueza (Nielsen), and also Tioga II and III, but all of these had the companionway offset to port, the white one has it to starboard, if you look closely. The covestripe also looks more like something from a Bristol, although the one in Lueza is close with the opening in the back, not the typical Nielsen rhombus.

Hood yawl:

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Lueza (Nielsen)

1967-aage-nielsen-41-centerboard-sloop--

Butterfly (Nielsen):

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And another angle:

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There are aspects that point towards a Nielsen design, though. This one has the wheel very much moved forward, you can see it through the sprayhood window, that is very similar to Butterfly. 

Very hard for me to tell. 

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30 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Similar to a S&S, Nevins 40?

175395733_Nevins40.jpg.ae21369dc0769ea39d57cd9843872a58.jpg

Very much. One noteworthy detail are these bronze pedestals, they look very much like those in my picture.

On a side note: I want to safe this dog. Is he alright? Didn't fall in?

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29 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

One of my favorite Nielsen boats, LEVERA that was PASSAGE. I like his step coach designs. 

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Yes, I think so too.

He often kept the windows smaller than he could have done, giving the raised part a more stretched look. Design masterclass right there.

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6 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Yes, I think so too.

He often kept the windows smaller than he could have done, giving the raised part a more stretched look. Design masterclass right there.

 

Good point.

STARSONG has the raised coach and shows the extent of Nielsen's 'turn' from house side to top. Visually lowers the house height immensely while keeping a nice headroom, especially below the raised portion.  

 

Starsong.thumb.jpg.6e172e26c821569c8fa13963d1da024d.jpg

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

One of my favorite Nielsen boats, LEVERA that was PASSAGE. I like his step coach designs. 

1763463153_LEVERA2.thumb.jpg.651415c41566d96c3b79d70fdf9d1c3e.jpg

LEVERA.thumb.jpg.84e4410eabcf21352de5a9c1c31a0fad.jpg

They may be considered dinosaurs by some, but their beauty is astonishing... at least to me.

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6 minutes ago, Bull City said:

They may be considered dinosaurs by some, but their beauty is astonishing... at least to me.

It is to everyone with eyes.

The fact that contemporary boats perform better in most ways doesn't affect the fact that these oldies are pure art.

 

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It is to everyone with eyes.

The fact that contemporary boats perform better in most ways doesn't affect the fact that these oldies are pure art.

 

True about cars as well.  There's no questioning that the new Jag F-type will out perform an old E-type.  But we all know which one is "more beautiful"

2021-jaguar-f-type078.jpg

Used 1972 Jaguar E-Type V12 Roadster for Sale in Las Vegas NV 89118 Cool  Classics Las Vegas

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

True about cars as well.  There's no questioning that the new Jag F-type will out perform an old E-type.  But we all know which one is "more beautiful"

2021-jaguar-f-type078.jpg

Used 1972 Jaguar E-Type V12 Roadster for Sale in Las Vegas NV 89118 Cool  Classics Las Vegas

I hate when beautiful boat threads turn into ugly car threads. 

But this needs to be pointed out. The new Jaguar looks like a Ford.

ford-mondeo-01.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

True about cars as well.  There's no questioning that the new Jag F-type will out perform an old E-type.  But we all know which one is "more beautiful"

2021-jaguar-f-type078.jpg

Used 1972 Jaguar E-Type V12 Roadster for Sale in Las Vegas NV 89118 Cool  Classics Las Vegas

Yeah, even a V-12 - the "ugly" E-Type. ;)

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9 hours ago, Bull City said:

They may be considered dinosaurs by some, but their beauty is astonishing... at least to me.

Does there have to be a choice?

To my mind, those boats are dinosaurs ... and they are also astonishingly beautiful.

I don't see any contradiction.

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This is one of my favorites. One of the greyhounds of the sea in it's day, FIDELIO is a sistership to the famous  S&S FINESTERRE.

 

These lines were drawn in the early 50's but they still drive some new custom designs, today. 

 

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I bet it caused a generational split in the S&S design office back in 1952-53 as it was,...radical in the day.

Beamy to the extreme (11'6" X 38'6").

I've been told it was designed to be a "Concordia killer", the state of the art in boats at that time,  racing to Bermuda.

Throw in the centerboard and I wouldn't be surprised if a few old stiffs walked away from the drawing board. 

Real side decks, ocean going ventilation, all function in it's day: win. 

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Few boats I've photographed are so easy to settle in my viewfinder. Most take some time to find a pleasing angle. This one snaps into the lens.  

It always looks like it's moving to me. 

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Like several of this era, the wheel is forward sheltered by the dodger and gives easy access to the sheet winches.  

And the helmsman can reach back and adjust the mainsheet and traveler. For a coastal cruiser, this layout is hard to beat. 

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Still an active racer in the classic races and I hear, still a boat to beat. 

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Olin was the master for more than 4 decades.

His brother being one of the best seamen in the world probably helped a lot.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Olin was the master for more than 4 decades.

His brother being one of the best seamen in the world probably helped a lot.

And many of the best designers of that generation worked at S&S under Olin and Rod (who did deck layouts) early in their careers, including Aage Nielsen. It is no wonder there is such a strong family resemblance between designs from S&S alumni from that golden age.

One of my favorite Nielsen designs is Hound, which we see in Maine every summer. Long, narrow, deep, flush-decked aluminum sloop of stunning grace.

I couldn't begin to name my favorite S&S design. Just too many to choose from.

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2 hours ago, accnick said:

And many of the best designers of that generation worked at S&S under Olin and Rod (who did deck layouts) early in their careers, including Aage Nielsen. It is no wonder there is such a strong family resemblance between designs from S&S alumni from that golden age.

One of my favorite Nielsen designs is Hound, which we see in Maine every summer. Long, narrow, deep, flush-decked aluminum sloop of stunning grace.

I couldn't begin to name my favorite S&S design. Just too many to choose from.

Didn't Carl Alberg do a stint at S&S?

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23 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Didn't Carl Alberg do a stint at S&S?

Not sure about that. He did work for John Alden in the late 1920s, before Olin's professional career even started.

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On 4/16/2021 at 11:18 AM, Bull City said:

That is a beautiful photo!

that would make a very nice painting...;)

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52 minutes ago, Trovão said:

that would make a very nice painting...;)

I used to paint every week with a group. We haven't met since March of 2020. I haven't painted since then. It's weird.

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7 hours ago, accnick said:

And many of the best designers of that generation worked at S&S under Olin and Rod (who did deck layouts) early in their careers, including Aage Nielsen. It is no wonder there is such a strong family resemblance between designs from S&S alumni from that golden age.

One of my favorite Nielsen designs is Hound, which we see in Maine every summer. Long, narrow, deep, flush-decked aluminum sloop of stunning grace.

I couldn't begin to name my favorite S&S design. Just too many to choose from.

Also Al Mason. Apparently a lot of him in Fidelo and Finisterre.

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Saw this boat in hobart before the wooden boat festival jan 2019 - can’t work  out what it is - looked up list for that years board and couldn’t find it anywhere - any ideas ? I’m guessing about 45 on deck - looked like tall rig - some spectra type rigging - any ideas 

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17 hours ago, accnick said:

And many of the best designers of that generation worked at S&S under Olin and Rod (who did deck layouts) early in their careers, including Aage Nielsen. It is no wonder there is such a strong family resemblance between designs from S&S alumni from that golden age.

Interestingly, Nielsen is a bit of an anomaly in this context.  I'm going from memory here (it's been a while since I read his biography), but I believe he was a well established designer by the time he was hired to be S&S's Boston office.  Olin would have still been a bit of a young upstart at the time, and Nielsen was older and more experienced.  He was mostly left alone, neither wanting nor requiring much oversight from Olin.

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5 hours ago, MFH125 said:

Interestingly, Nielsen is a bit of an anomaly in this context.  I'm going from memory here (it's been a while since I read his biography), but I believe he was a well established designer by the time he was hired to be S&S's Boston office.  Olin would have still been a bit of a young upstart at the time, and Nielsen was older and more experienced.  He was mostly left alone, neither wanting nor requiring much oversight from Olin.

I believe you are correct. Nielsen was four years older than Olin, and I believe had worked for Alden before joining S&S in about 1936. After WW2, he went out on his own.

This is a common pattern in professions like architecture and yacht design: work for a master, then go out on your own to prove yourself. The list of well-known designers who worked for S&S at some point in their careers is long.

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28 minutes ago, Bull City said:

This long, skinny, S&S lady smote me:

https://yotlot.com/courageous-a-1947-ss/

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Makes the modern "gentlemen's daysailers" look  a little second-best, doesn't she?

Dimensionally, she is virtually identical to the long-gone George Owen designed, Lawley built Q-boat I owned back in the 1970s through early 80s.

I'll be the first to admit this S&S design is more beautiful, and more practical. 

Only three owners in 74 years!  That says a lot for the appeal, and the pedigree.

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On 4/19/2021 at 5:05 PM, accnick said:

One of my favorite Nielsen designs is Hound.

I sailed with Ewin Gaynor on Emily (I would class him as one of my best friends when I lived in Southport) and had many good conversations on Hound about arctic sailing before we built Hawk.

That was a different caliber of men (and boats). I miss them. It was what the CCA was about (the club, not the rule).  But the world has moved on.

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33 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Not everyone.:)

Bull...you need to look at this one... The owner was planning to finish the boat, ran into "life", had it in his garage for years, then had Morris finish it. A nearly brand new Frances. Only down side are the teak decks, unless they are bonded on rather than screwed on.

 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2013/morris-frances-26-3820840/

 

 

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