Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 12/15/2021 at 6:06 PM, accnick said:
On 12/15/2021 at 5:37 PM, Matagi said:
  • This looks very much like my retirement dream:
  • 7.50 m, in the Netherlands.
  • Boemerang
  •  
Expand  Expand  

That looks very much like a Nordic Folkboat with a larger cabin.

Which is pretty much what a British Folkboat is: Nordic Folkboat plus an extra plank or two on the sheer, and a bigger coachroof.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 16.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I've been working on the S Boat painting from the photo I posted a few days ago, and I thought y'all might like to see how it's coming along. It's 12" X 24". I liked the composition of the photo,

Adagio just started the Port Huron to Mackinaw race In her 52'nd year of racing. First large wood-epoxy boat boat built without fasteners. She rates faster than the Santa Cruz 70's.

Does it come with a codpiece?  And I can easily singlehand or cruise with the wife and no crew. I say that a lot when I see an exotic, beautiful car, or a mansion that is just too f'n big

Posted Images

5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Which is pretty much what a British Folkboat is: Nordic Folkboat plus an extra plank or two on the sheer, and a bigger coachroof.

interesting, how adding "a-little-bit-here-&-a-little-bit-there" - totally ruins the aesthetics...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, tane said:
5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Which is pretty much what a British Folkboat is: Nordic Folkboat plus an extra plank or two on the sheer, and a bigger coachroof.

interesting, how adding "a-little-bit-here-&-a-little-bit-there" - totally ruins the aesthetics...

Indeed.  But then again, the only place the Brits ever really do the Scandinavian minimalism thing is in prison design

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tane said:

one a couple of planks - to go from beauty to beast (here the beauty for comparison):df9f1e177e158b38f2106a0f4a3bd668.jpg

The Beauty also has a fractional rig.  I think it’s far more aesthetically pleasing than a masthead rig…

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

The aesthetics are fine by me and those couple of planks and the coach roof make for a very capable cruiser.

Agreed. There's no doubt that there is only the Nordic Folkboat. 

That doesn't mean all other similar boats are imitations. They are iterations, and not necessarily for the worse.

20170616_111502.jpg

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Matagi said:

Agreed. There's no doubt that there is only the Nordic Folkboat. 

That doesn't mean all other similar boats are imitations. They are iterations, and not necessarily for the worse.

20170616_111502.jpg

 

Our old log of wood was a smooth iteration....

IMG_1600.thumb.PNG.0eb4c0716f63d080961aa3e2310f8819.PNG

IMG_0814.thumb.JPG.2538a89e8b130b8aac76ac45dd66d242.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/16/2021 at 4:29 PM, Kris Cringle said:

I'm loving these shots of the new boats. 

Kris, did you get up on the wrong side of bed? This like saying you like the new Cadillac SUV on a thread about classic MG's. Not like you.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Very pretty.  A Twister?

Not a Twister but a local design by Alan Smith 32ft oa edge butt and glued Mahogany no glass as straight as the day she was built some 45 years ago and a cracker of a sailboat sure she was no rocketship she was heavy compared to many she never she let us down or freaked us out we never bled or stopped talking nicely to each other one very precious vessel.

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

The late Phil Bolger wrote that (in his opinion) Kim Holman's Stella was the best of the Folkboat-like cruisers. Pretty sweet boat, IMHO. Being designed as a cruiser, she's not a lithe day-racer as is the original Folkboat.

 

SYH6[1].jpg

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The aesthetics are fine by me and those couple of planks and the coach roof make for a very capable cruiser.

so said a sailor who's actually been below on a folkboat - even when I was young and flexible those things still gave me a kink in the neck. lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, floater said:

so said a sailor who's actually been below on a folkboat - even when I was young and flexible those things still gave me a kink in the neck. lol.

I did a bit of cruising in my Yankee One Design, often with 3 kids, rarely, with the whole family though…. Loved that boat

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Veeger said:

I did a bit of cruising in my Yankee One Design, often with 3 kids, rarely, with the whole family though…. Loved that boat

a great looking boat, for sure.

y39-lots-wife-anchorage.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

It's a whole new world, Bull. 

183733173_ScreenShot2021-12-18at7_39_32AM.thumb.png.8b4d73d9134ddeaa112bafea4c9d5eea.png

Good gravy, those steps down to the poop(?) deck are unusable while underway.  And that's a lot of exposed deck.  Not a boat for the tropics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Hukilau said:

Good gravy, those steps down to the poop(?) deck are unusable while underway.  And that's a lot of exposed deck.  Not a boat for the tropics.

The reason that guy is on his own is his buddies had a guts full of having nowhere to sit comfortably out of the weather whilst underway.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

The reason that guy is on his own is his buddies had a guts full of having nowhere to sit comfortably out of the weather whilst underway.

That, plus he knifed all his buddies for business advantage and sold their organs on the black market. That's how you buy a boat like that: fourth-generation inherited money, or first-generation sociopathy.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The reason that guy is on his own is his buddies had a guts full of having nowhere to sit comfortably out of the weather whilst underway.

And the bongo board is still in the wrong position.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

That's how you buy a boat like that: fourth-generation inherited money, or first-generation sociopathy.

The Great Inheritors: How Three Families Shielded Their Fortunes From Taxes for Generations
by Patricia Callahan, James Bandler, Justin Elliott, Doris Burke and Jeff Ernsthausen - Dec. 15, 2021
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-great-inheritors-how-three-families-shielded-their-fortunes-from-taxes-for-generations

Quote

In the more than eight decades since the hearings, tax avoidance has hardened into a way of life for the ultrarich. Over the past year, ProPublica has analyzed confidential IRS data covering thousands of the nation’s wealthiest people and revealed the largely legal strategies they use to drastically winnow down their tax bills, sometimes to zero.

The Scripps, Mellon and Mars families are living proof of the triumph of tax avoidance and the durability of dynastic fortunes: Their combined wealth today is pegged by Forbes at $114 billion. Over the years, members of all three families have played prominent roles in the modern anti-tax movement and have helped shape tax policy. And in a centurylong cat-and-mouse game, Congress has scrambled to keep up with their tactics.

Drawing on the trove of secret IRS data as well as letters, diaries, books, congressional records and court documents, ProPublica traced how these families managed to preserve their wealth over the last century despite congressional efforts to clip dynastic fortunes.

    

Quote

To understand the roots of America’s attempts to rein in family fortunes, it helps to start in the early 1900s with a whiskey-swilling, pistol-toting millionaire.

“RASCALITY OF THE RICH MAN”
E.W. Scripps Fights for Taxes on the Rich, Then Regrets It

That millionaire was E.W. Scripps. A man of contradictions, he preached radicalism and expressed sympathy for the labor insurgents who bombed the Los Angeles Times building and killed 21 people. He then spent much of his last decade sailing the world on his 172-foot yacht or puffing cigars at Miramar, his sprawling ranch outside of San Diego modeled after a castle in Italy.

Scripps co-founded a newspaper empire in 1878 aimed at the working class. In the late 1800s, when many newspapers cost 5 cents, Scripps sold his for a penny and published news that, he said, helped working men and women “protect themselves from the brutal force and chicanery of the ruling and employing class.”

 

Ohio.thumb.jpg.51e96cd2f7c5b3d581cc4f2625f9e83f.jpg

"E.W. Scripps yacht The Ohio being built in 1922. The name can be seen on the top. E. W. Scripps died on this boat in 1926.  The yacht was a 172-foot yacht built for EWS from a Cox and Stevens design."
Source: https://media.library.ohio.edu/digital/collection/scripps/id/1238

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

That, plus he knifed all his buddies for business advantage and sold their organs on the black market. That's how you buy a boat like that: fourth-generation inherited money, or first-generation sociopathy.

His dad raised him right, Saturday afternoons tossing red hot pennies over the  orphanage wall, stealing money out of blind folk's tin cups. B)

Or maybe he just had some good ideas and worked his ass off. You know, earned it. I know a lot of very rich, very cool guys who've done just that. 

Religious fundamentalists live in fear that somewhere, someone is having fun.

Progressive fundamentalists live in fear that somewhere, someone is getting rich. 

Both are idiots. 

18 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The reason that guy is on his own is his buddies had a guts full of having nowhere to sit comfortably out of the weather whilst underway.

The canvas for the seating area folds away at the touch of a button.

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty progressive but I've started, run, and sold businesses and know how hard it is. I also know that there's a lot more than smarts, hard work, and luck involved. There's good public infrastructure, public education, etc. I don't begrudge anyone getting rich, just as long as they pay their taxes so others have a better shot at doing the same down the road. 

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Or maybe he just had some good ideas and worked his ass off. You know, earned it. I know a lot of very rich, very cool guys who've done just that. 

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is Capitalist Fallacy 101.   It's a delusion which capitalists like to sustain, in order to feel good about their wealth.

The reality is that you don't get rich by your own hard work; you get rich by creaming off the profits from the hard work of other people who are paid much less.  Sure, the rich person may work very hard in the process, but the wealth comes from other people's work.

There are several variants on this, including asset speculation and the selling of natural resources which you didn't make ... but the basic formula almost never amounts to "person gets rich by their own hard work".

There are very rare exceptions — such as writing a million-selling book and getting rich off the royalties — but those exceptions apply to only a tiny minority of rich people.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is Capitalist Fallacy 101.   It's a delusion which capitalists like to sustain, in order to feel good about their wealth.

The reality is that you don't get rich by your own hard work; you get rich by creaming off the profits from the hard work of other people who are paid much less.  Sure, the rich person may work very hard in the process, but the wealth comes from other people's work.

There are several variants on this, including asset speculation and the selling of natural resources which you didn't make ... but the basic formula almost never amounts to "person gets rich by their own hard work".

There are very rare exceptions — such as writing a million-selling book and getting rich off the royalties — but those exceptions apply to only a tiny minority of rich people.

If it were not for wealthy "capitalists", most of us who have made careers out of sailing wouldn't have had those careers.

Sailing is not, for the most part, a poor man's sport.  Many of the people whose boats I have raced on are doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other small businessmen who have worked hard for what they have. All of them sailed because they love to sail, not as some means of conspicuous consumption.

My first "real" boat was actually my wife's, a wreck of a Herreshoff S-boat given to her as her college graduation present by her wildcatter father, for whom life was feast or famine, as it was/is for many independent oil geologists. 

He never forgot where he came from in the flatlands of West Texas, and grew up dirt-poor.

If it were not for billionaires, things like the America's Cup and SailGP, both of which have been good to me, could not exist.

I hope you were joking in what you said. If you are serious, comrade, life must be pretty miserable.

Your own avatar says "base rate plus 10%." That sounds like what you get through speculation, not honest hard work.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, accnick said:

I hope you were joking in what you said. If you are serious, comrade, life must be pretty miserable.

Not at all.  I am very happy to see things as they are, rather than as how some people pretend the to be.

15 minutes ago, accnick said:

Your own avatar says "base rate plus 10%." That sounds like what you get through speculation, not honest hard work.

It's called satire, comrade :) 

  • Like 5
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, accnick said:

If it were not for billionaires, things like the America's Cup and SailGP, both of which have been good to me, could not exist

If it were not for billionaires, things like the America's cup and Formula One would not be the absurd, irrelevant spectacles they are and would revert to the old formula of syndicates of sanely rich people racing sailboats or cars that had some relevance to the world of sailing & cars.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are unable to apply any sense of scale or proportion to wealth.

They seem to apply the old hot rodders maxim for horsepower - if some is good, more is better and too much is just right.

Only a fool would think that capitalism is inherently bad or that there should not be any rich people - BUT - the current situation where a handful of people control as much or more wealth than the bottom 1/2 of society IS bad, as well as harmful to the progress of the human race. Can anyone actually believe that Apple and Amazon sitting on $250,000,000,000.00 in cash is healthy for the economy or society

Moderation in all things... including moderation.

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

If it were not for billionaires, things like the America's cup and Formula One would not be the absurd, irrelevant spectacles they are and would revert to the old formula of syndicates of sanely rich people racing sailboats or cars that had some relevance to the world of sailing & cars.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are unable to apply any sense of scale or proportion to wealth.

They seem to apply the old hot rodders maxim for horsepower - if some is good, more is better and too much is just right.

Only a fool would think that capitalism is inherently bad or that there should not be any rich people - BUT - the current situation where a handful of people control as much or more wealth than the bottom 1/2 of society IS bad, as well as harmful to the progress of the human race. Can anyone actually believe that Apple and Amazon sitting on $250,000,000,000.00 in cash is healthy for the economy or society

Moderation in all things... including moderation.

The "sanely rich people" you refer to in the old days of the AC were primarily some of the richest people on the planet. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Is today's distribution and concentration of wealth obscene? Of course, but you can blame the law, politicians, and the tax code for that, not just the avarice of those who have accumulated wealth. Don't like it? Vote for people who will change things.

Meanwhile, many of the wealthiest in this country--but not all--are giving away the vast of bulk of their fortunes to try to solve some of the planet's most intractable problems. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett come to mind.

I have little sympathy for those who accumulate great wealth and do little with it except indulge in wretched excess and pass on to their often indolent children.

I suspect we generally agree on that part of this issue.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is Capitalist Fallacy 101.   It's a delusion which capitalists like to sustain, in order to feel good about their wealth.

The reality is that you don't get rich by your own hard work; you get rich by creaming off the profits from the hard work of other people who are paid much less.  Sure, the rich person may work very hard in the process, but the wealth comes from other people's work.

There are several variants on this, including asset speculation and the selling of natural resources which you didn't make ... but the basic formula almost never amounts to "person gets rich by their own hard work".

There are very rare exceptions — such as writing a million-selling book and getting rich off the royalties — but those exceptions apply to only a tiny minority of rich people.

44735E2A-08D8-4D38-9CDA-ABD7DB2A041C.gif.5649f3d3619482f8a75692d1eb586106.gif

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is Capitalist Fallacy 101.   It's a delusion which capitalists like to sustain, in order to feel good about their wealth.

The reality is that you don't get rich by your own hard work; you get rich by creaming off the profits from the hard work of other people who are paid much less.  Sure, the rich person may work very hard in the process, but the wealth comes from other people's work.

There are several variants on this, including asset speculation and the selling of natural resources which you didn't make ... but the basic formula almost never amounts to "person gets rich by their own hard work".

There are very rare exceptions — such as writing a million-selling book and getting rich off the royalties — but those exceptions apply to only a tiny minority of rich people.

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is progressive fallacy 101.  God forbid anyone actually got rich by working hard...but what is missing in your discourse is the fact that within the human species there is a great diversity of intelligence, of work ethic, of risk tolerance, of judgement, of integrity, etc.  Some people will have great amounts of all those qualities, and they are likely to be very successful.  Some people will have little amounts of all those qualities and they will likely be unsuccessful.  And progressives don't want to every have to say "the reason you are not rich is because you are not intelligent, have a poor work ethic, are unwilling to ever take a risk, have poor judgement, and lack integrity."  

Yet we all know those people exist, have some of one quality, and less of another.  That's just nature at work.  But the progressive chestnut is that the reason you don't have a better life is someone "stole" it from you.  You, as an individual, bear no responsibility for any poor choices you've made or will make.

I'm not trying to say there aren't wealthy people who got theirs on the backs of others...but to say that is true of all wealthy people is as wrong as saying all poor people are dumb, fat and lazy...

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Crash said:

within the human species there is a great diversity of intelligence, of work ethic, of risk tolerance, of judgement, of integrity, etc.  Some people will have great amounts of all those qualities, and they are likely to be very successful.  Some people will have little amounts of all those qualities and they will likely be unsuccessful. 

So by your logic, "successful" people have high integrity?   Like Musk, Gates, Ellison, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Dimon, Murdoch, Epstein, etc.
And most people of modest means lack integrity?

Hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah.  Hilarious. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Crash said:

Oh dear.

That old chestnut is progressive fallacy 101.  God forbid anyone actually got rich by working hard...but what is missing in your discourse is the fact that within the human species there is a great diversity of intelligence, of work ethic, of risk tolerance, of judgement, of integrity, etc.  Some people will have great amounts of all those qualities, and they are likely to be very successful.  Some people will have little amounts of all those qualities and they will likely be unsuccessful.  And progressives don't want to every have to say "the reason you are not rich is because you are not intelligent, have a poor work ethic, are unwilling to ever take a risk, have poor judgement, and lack integrity."  

Yet we all know those people exist, have some of one quality, and less of another.  That's just nature at work.  But the progressive chestnut is that the reason you don't have a better life is someone "stole" it from you.  You, as an individual, bear no responsibility for any poor choices you've made or will make.

I'm not trying to say there aren't wealthy people who got theirs on the backs of others...but to say that is true of all wealthy people is as wrong as saying all poor people are dumb, fat and lazy...

Oh dear, Crash.  Your implicit definition of "successful" as "making lots of money", is so full of fallacies that it's hard to know where to start.

Take for example a brilliant, gifted teacher who works their socks off for decades to inspire and educate a generation of students is to my mind a huge success, who has done amazing work to transform many lives.  But a school teacher is very unlikely to be paid more than about twice the median wage, no matter how good they are.  Same for a nurse, or a carer, or a scientific researcher: if you rate them only by the money they make, you dismiss those intelligent, hard-working as "dumb, fat and lazy" or "not intelligent, have a poor work ethic, are unwilling to ever take a risk, have poor judgement, and lack integrity." 

That, my friend is not just absurd; it's plain nasty.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear, Crash.  Your implicit definition of "successful" as "making lots of money", is so full of fallacies that it's hard to know where to start.

Take for example a brilliant, gifted teacher who works their socks off for decades to inspire and educate a generation of students is to my mind a huge success, who has done amazing work to transform many lives.  But a school teacher is very unlikely to be paid more than about twice the median wage, no matter how good they are.  Same for a nurse, or a carer, or a scientific researcher: if you rate them only by the money they make, you dismiss those intelligent, hard-working as "dumb, fat and lazy" or "not intelligent, have a poor work ethic, are unwilling to ever take a risk, have poor judgement, and lack integrity." 

That, my friend is not just absurd; it's plain nasty.

My dear sweet Leggs,

That is emphatically not what I said.  Nor did I equate success to wealth or income level.  My sister is a teacher, as is the father of my wife.  In fact for a number of years, my wife was a teacher.  My first wife and mother of 3 of my 4 children was a nurse.  One daughter is a navy helo pilot, the other daughter is a conservation biologist and field researcher.  My oldest son is a Field Rep for a Math Franchise Company.  My youngest is 14, so still a work in progress :P. I was a Naval Officer and a Defense Consultant and am now a stay-at-home father by choice (yes, forsaking a 6-figure salary for the sake of helping the "work in progress" become successful) .  My wife was a Naval Officer, Teacher, Business Owner, and now a VP at an International Franchise Company.  While none of us are "rich or wealthy"  we are certainly all successful, contributing members of society.  All I said was being rich didn't mean you were a scumbag and ought be hung on the nearest cross.  Plus, not that all people have the god given talents that would let them become rich/wealthy.

Wealth is but only one measure of success.  But it should not be an 'instant" measure of avarice, greed, selfishness, or heartlessness.  And that IS how you seem to be branding it.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Crash said:

All I said was being rich didn't mean you were a scumbag and ought be hung on the nearest cross.  Plus, not that all people have the god given talents that would let them become rich/wealthy.

Wealth is but only one measure of success.  But it should not be an 'instant" measure of avarice, greed, selfishness, or heartlessness.  And that IS how you seem to be branding it.

I am not a Christian, but on this topic, I go with Jesus.  He was unequivocal about it:

Matthew 19:23-24:

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Children!

If you keep turning this beautiful thread into a PA shitfight, I am going to flood it with Peppa Pig videos.

You have been warned

Do try to keep up, Matagi :D

In the UK, Peppa Pig is now highly political:

Voters will tell us what they think of Boris Johnson’s Peppa Pig speech in next week’s by-election

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

image.thumb.jpeg.dfa9171903bf48eefb6852ba72acd0f0.jpeg

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/18/2021 at 4:11 AM, alphafb552 said:

That guy looks extremely bored and lonely

Imagine having the money to get an expensive boat like that and still have no friends at all...

Sailing alone has been some of the most fun and relaxing moments out there in the deep blue.  Don't knock it.  :P

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/18/2021 at 5:15 PM, floater said:

so said a sailor who's actually been below on a folkboat - even when I was young and flexible those things still gave me a kink in the neck. lol.

I knew a family of 5 who cruised one of those with small kids back in the day. My mate was the youngest and had a sort of hammock bed as there weren't enough births.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Sailing alone has been some of the most fun and relaxing moments out there in the deep blue.  Don't knock it.  :P

I keep telling myself that, someday maybe convinced.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, European Bloke said:

I knew a family of 5 who cruised one of those with small kids back in the day. My mate was the youngest and had a sort of hammock bed as there weren't enough births.

 Rather than not enough births,  sounds like there were too many if there weren't enough berths for all the kids!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

May be an image of 1 person, boat racing, sailboat and ocean

I think she's the one you invite aboard if you want to encourage others to join as well.  Judging from the looks she's getting from the cockpit, I'd say this was a successful strategy.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am not a Christian, but on this topic, I go with Jesus.  He was unequivocal about it:

Matthew 19:23-24:

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

Both verses allow for safe passage. The Eye of the Needle is an actual pass where it is near impossible to get a camel through. 
 

America taught us that there is an American Dream that we can achieve if we work hard enough. People have different ideas of what that dream is. I know many wealthy people who started their own businesses, pay taxes and give to the community and social causes. You can’t always finish painting a picture with one big fat black brush without smearing out some the colorful beauty that was created.
 

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, oldsurfer said:

 

From dustoffthebible.com:

"There is a gate in Jerusalem called the “eye of the needle”, through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped down and had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were closed, travelers and merchants would have to use this smaller gate. Great sermon material, with illustrations about how we must humble ourselves and remove our baggage before entering the kingdom.

It would be quite convenient if this myth were true because it would legitimize people’s affinity for money and probably the prosperity gospel as well. If the passage is about baggage and humility and not actually about wealth then the prosperity preachers can breathe a big sigh of reliefr However, this myth has been propagated since the 11th century and it is completely made up. There is zero evidence to show that this gate ever existed other than stories brought back from Jerusalem tours."

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am not a Christian, but on this topic, I go with Jesus.  He was unequivocal about it:

Matthew 19:23-24:

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

Funny, I am a Christian.  The Bible is some 780,000 plus words long.  It's usually not too hard to cherry pick a couple verses to support a wide range of views.  In fact, the Religious Right does that all the time.  for example on the idea that marriage can only be between a man and a women.  I'm guessing I know where you stand on that...

I also find it funny the the folks that nominally would preach acceptance of all and would lecture on the reasons stereotyping is so harmful, seem so intent on stereotyping here.  If all rich people are bad, then all blondes are dumb, all Irish are drunks, all football players are jocks, etc, etc.  But it seems you guys waive those rules when it comes to the wealthy, the police, or the military.  Judge each person for who they are and what their qualities are...not by the group you've lumped them in with.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Crash said:

I also find it funny the the folks that nominally would preach acceptance of all and would lecture on the reasons stereotyping is so harmful, seem so intent on stereotyping here.  If all rich people are bad, then all blondes are dumb, all Irish are drunks, all football players are jocks, etc, etc.  But it seems you guys waive those rules when it comes to the wealthy, the police, or the military.  Judge each person for who they are and what their qualities are...not by the group you've lumped them in with.

Crash, I am unsurprised that you claim to be a Christian, but so lightly dismiss a part of Christ's teaching which is recorded in 3 of the 4 gospels. But then the Prosperity Gospel heresy is widespread in the US, so I guess there are plenty of ways you could have been led astray.

My position on this is not complicated, despite your crude attempt to misrepresent it.

I criticise rich people not as some sort of group prejudice, but because of their conduct. towards other people.  They can stop that conduct at any time, and then they won;t be par of the group I am criticising.

The problem is imply that rich people hoard resources for themselves while other people live in poverty, or struggle to pay bills.

Someone pocketing millions per year is hoarding money that has been created by other people's work, and which should be used to help ensure that everyone has access to secure housing, medical care when they need it, and education without debt.  Instead, they spend it on hoarding assets or on luxuries for themselves, which is scummy, selfish behaviour.

And your accusation that I am cherrypicking is bogus.  The Christian stance of sexuality is one of many reasons why I abandoned that faith (though not a major reason; there were much bigger issues for me).  But I am not claiming to be an adherent of that faith, so I am free to point to bits of the package which I like or dislike.  However, you claim to be an adherent, so you don't have that freedom.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You're gonna be leaving here without it

Fine and understood. I get to enjoy the fuck out of life while I'm here without giving a shit what things cost.

The single best thing about money is that it allows you to be generous. I just confirmed that my Christmas present to the boatyard (smoked wild game from my favorite smokehouse in Colorado) has arrived and is at the caterers to be prepped for their Christmas party. Checks go out to over 50 charities this week, many of those charities were suggested by Anarchists in past years. 

I don't know any highly successful people who are not relentless workaholics. Those who say "everyone works hard" don't understand the difference. Most people work to live, seeking a paycheck, a nice balanced life, and a nice retirement. Workaholics live to work and will never retire, because they can't, it's not their nature. Some try retirement, but find themselves back at it in a few months or a couple of years. One longtime partner was still going to the office at 90 until his health finally failed a few months before his death. I'm 67, my brother/partner is 69. What would drive nails in our coffins is if we were no longer permitted to work. We're both at the office every Saturday and Sunday. We decidedly do not lead "balanced" lives, by choice. 

When you run a family business you must show by example that nobody can outwork the family members. I've had some uncomfortable discussions with family, including an Ivy League educated brother, about why they were not/no longer going to be working with us. You're better off paying someone to stay home than to let them set a bad example.

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

My position on this is not complicated, despite your crude attempt to misrepresent it.

I criticise rich people not as some sort of group prejudice, but because of their conduct. towards other people.

Bullshit, with a capital B.  You absolutely are criticizing Cruising Loser as part of a group predudice.  You do not know him, you do not know how much money he makes, and you do not know what he does with that money to help others.  Yet you criticize him none the less.  At least be honest!  

OBTW, the very same Bible says:

Samuel 16:7 

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

Luke 6:37 


“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven"

You are judging people without looking into their heart.  

I don't personally know Cruising either.  By I do know the high regard with which he held, and friendship he shared with Innocent Bystander.  If IB thinks him a good man, that is the best endorsement I know of...

Crash

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The single best thing about money is that it allows you to be generous. I just confirmed that my Christmas present to the boatyard (smoked wild game from my favorite smokehouse in Colorado) has arrived and is at the caterers to be prepped for their Christmas party. Checks go out to over 50 charities this week, many of those charities were suggested by Anarchists in past years. 

So, if you want claim virtue, then what percentage of your annual income is donated to charity?

36 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I don't know any highly successful people who are not relentless workaholics. Those who say "everyone works hard" don't understand the difference. Most people work to live, seeking a paycheck, a nice balanced life, and a nice retirement. Workaholics live to work and will never retire, because they can't, it's not their nature. Some try retirement, but find themselves back at it in a few months or a couple of years. One longtime partner was still going to the office at 90 until his health finally failed a few months before his death. I'm 67, my brother/partner is 69. What would drive nails in our coffins is if we were no longer permitted to work. We're both at the office every Saturday and Sunday. We decidedly do not lead "balanced" lives, by choice. 

I am sure that is true.  I have seen it many times.

But the most interesting thing is that I have seen it in so many contexts which demonstrate the folly of any claim that this sort of work ethic requires the accumulation of vast piles of loot.

I have seen it in voluntary organisations, from political campaigns to sports clubs to help-the-needy charities: there are people who work their socks off, way beyond the call of duty, for no extra pay -- and often for no pay at all.

And I saw it on kibbutzim where I lived for a time in the 1980s.  Every adult on the kibbutz got the same pay, whether their work was laundry or toilet-cleaning or running on the kibbutz's mullti-million-turnover businesses. But there were still highly-driven people to run key departments.   I watched how these were the same sort of personality types who in  a capitalist system climbed  a corporate ladder or built their own enterprises, and here was the proof that they didn't need to take a disproportionate share of the cash.

And I have seen it in many family businesses.  Owners work very hard to run things, taking only modest pay themselves, because their reward is in the pride at keeping the show afloat, rather than in being able to write big cheques to themselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Crash said:

Bullshit, with a capital B.  You absolutely are criticizing Cruising Loser as part of a group predudice.

Calm down, Crash, and get a grip.  I made no personal criticism of CL.

Your anger is causing you to make stuff up, or to hallucinate.  Don't attack me for things that aren't there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TwoLegged said:

Calm down, Crash, and get a grip.  I made no personal criticism of CL.

Your anger is causing you to make stuff up, or to hallucinate.  Don't attack me for things that aren't there.

Keep obfuscating kiddo.  I give up.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, solosailor said:

I heard the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster released a new gospel which says to shut up.   

The one I got is the New Revised Edition which says to shut the fuck up.

Ah, progress.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Crash said:
14 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Calm down, Crash, and get a grip.  I made no personal criticism of CL.

Your anger is causing you to make stuff up, or to hallucinate.  Don't attack me for things that aren't there.

Keep obfuscating kiddo.  I give up.

I haven't obfuscated anything.

I commented on general principles, without mentioning any individual.

You made a wholly false assertion that i was taking a pop at one individual .. and then you went off on yet another tirade based on your fantasy.

I have seen you do this rage-at-a-fantasy thing before in other discussions, tho never in quite such an extreme manner.  Its not one of your better attributes

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Fine and understood. I get to enjoy the fuck out of life while I'm here without giving a shit what things cost.

The single best thing about money is that it allows you to be generous. I just confirmed that my Christmas present to the boatyard (smoked wild game from my favorite smokehouse in Colorado) has arrived and is at the caterers to be prepped for their Christmas party. Checks go out to over 50 charities this week, many of those charities were suggested by Anarchists in past years. 

I don't know any highly successful people who are not relentless workaholics. Those who say "everyone works hard" don't understand the difference. Most people work to live, seeking a paycheck, a nice balanced life, and a nice retirement. Workaholics live to work and will never retire, because they can't, it's not their nature. Some try retirement, but find themselves back at it in a few months or a couple of years. One longtime partner was still going to the office at 90 until his health finally failed a few months before his death. I'm 67, my brother/partner is 69. What would drive nails in our coffins is if we were no longer permitted to work. We're both at the office every Saturday and Sunday. We decidedly do not lead "balanced" lives, by choice. 

When you run a family business you must show by example that nobody can outwork the family members. I've had some uncomfortable discussions with family, including an Ivy League educated brother, about why they were not/no longer going to be working with us. You're better off paying someone to stay home than to let them set a bad example.

CL - Although it's quite apparent you are bucks up, I don't think anyone here includes you on the negative side of this discussion.

Unless you are currently building a 500' yacht to replace your 300' and are working on your 5th 20,000' mansion and have a few $billion in cash squirreled away that is.

There is nothing wrong with having all the money you need to be able to live the way you want.

However there is lots wrong with gross, vulgar, selfish, insatiable greed.

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Coolest boat I ever was privileged to helm.  The Glen L. Swetman.  My little family had our own little private cruise in 1993.  Not much wind but a real revelation about the, then new casinos.  Never thought much of gambling after seeing some long term friendships and marriages broken up over gambling debts.  But that night, my eyes were opened to the depths parents would go to enable their gambling obsession.

The Swetman, a pretty little schooner, sails nice too.  Once I finally figured out where the king spoke was (Hey, I’m a tiller man) she sailed as pretty as could be.

F734EA0C-CE37-4BE8-8BD4-CFCDDAD7B4BF.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites