Jump to content

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch


Recommended Posts

The TackTick compass retails for $499 (http://www.apsltd.com/c-4200-tacktick-micro-series.aspx), does not display headers or lifts so is allowed in other one design classes. Standard compares with a standard compass for $315 (http://www.apsltd.com/c-4258-surfacemountedcompasses.aspx) or a cheapie for less than $100.

 

Best method (for me) is to compare the angle with a landmark, a buoy, a moored boat, and sometimes even a distant cloud. It's always about where you are compared to the competition: the boats ahead (or if you are lucky) astern. I've sailed with and without compasses (including a TackTick) and I've always sailed my best races without using a compass. Happy for the competition to use them. Happier to beat them while they use them. :)

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Like you I don't use any kind of compass on my Laser and the more I think about it I'll retract my statement about the use of a digital compass. Provided it only provides direction and no lift/header data I would vote for that. If peeps want to drop $500 on a TackTick because it will make them happy and they will come out and play more then I am all for it. Personally I will still be out there with no compass but a new sail with the $500 I just saved! :D

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

When are they going to make a decision? I need to know whether I should be training in my RS Aero or my Laser for Paris 2024.     

@WCB  i seriously doubt there is a soul contributing to this thread who honestly disagrees with my perceptions or the reasoning behind my effort to establish an AERO fleet in Texas and at my home

That is one version of the story but there are other views. Today, many years later, who seems intent on controlling what happens to money that does not belong to them and attacking those elected by

Posted Images

 

The TackTick compass retails for $499 (http://www.apsltd.com/c-4200-tacktick-micro-series.aspx), does not display headers or lifts so is allowed in other one design classes. Standard compares with a standard compass for $315 (http://www.apsltd.com/c-4258-surfacemountedcompasses.aspx) or a cheapie for less than $100.

 

Best method (for me) is to compare the angle with a landmark, a buoy, a moored boat, and sometimes even a distant cloud. It's always about where you are compared to the competition: the boats ahead (or if you are lucky) astern. I've sailed with and without compasses (including a TackTick) and I've always sailed my best races without using a compass. Happy for the competition to use them. Happier to beat them while they use them. :)

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Like you I don't use any kind of compass on my Laser and the more I think about it I'll retract my statement about the use of a digital compass. Provided it only provides direction and no lift/header data I would vote for that. If peeps want to drop $500 on a TackTick because it will make them happy and they will come out and play more then I am all for it. Personally I will still be out there with no compass but a new sail with the $500 I just saved! :D

 

Only problem I see with TackTick is it can be a perceived barrier to competition to people that haven't bought one.

You have a new guy with old boat, gets his ass handed to him.

He may see the TackTick as just one more $500 thing he thinks he needs to buy to be able to be up front.

He is wrong about it, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't stick around long enough to learn that.

 

Laser is dirt cheap to anyone who has ever spent big boat money.

Not so much to some guy that scraped together $1200 for an old Laser as a first boat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of you guys really have very warped and illogical views on compasses.

 

It seems that some of you want to make out that digital compasses have some mystical powers that can turn somebody into a tactical genius. All they do is display a number. That is no different to a "regular" compass, except it is easier to read. As my eyesight gets worse (with age), I find it harder to read the numbers on many compasses. To even think that a digital compass gives you any advantage is ridiculous. It doesn't tell you when to tack, where in a shift cycle you are, what the wind will do next.

 

As for the idea that this is a cost related issue, again i call BS on that. You are happy for me to spend whatever i like on a conventional compass and a large display start watch timer but I cannot buy a Tack Tick that does both for me? Do you guys realise that it is possible spend more on a compass and watch than it costs to buy a Tack Tick. If the argument is about cost, you cannot simply say that it's about bringing prices down, it has to be about limiting how much can be spent in total. You cannot argue against one thing on the grounds of cost if you can spend more on the alternative.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Why you would call your Laser "Buccaneer" and mount two compasses I will never know. You have a crew?

 

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong.

 

Ditch the crew, too much additional weight.

 

Come to think about it, I can't recall any of the top sailors using compasses, though a few further back do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I had seen simple digital compasses for $99.

Maybe I imagined it.

 

A simple Throw away cell phone set in compass mode should give pretty good direction

 

I wont be FOR digital compasses until there is a waterproof version for under $100

Gov, You are all over the race course!

 

So you are only for a digital compass if there is one to be had for less than $100??? I don't know of such a thing? If there was one for less than $100 I probably would put one on my boat just for the heck of it but probably still would not look at it much. AFA I know the TackTic at $499 is the cheapest option out there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Why you would call your Laser "Buccaneer" and mount two compasses I will never know. You have a crew?

 

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong.

 

Ditch the crew, too much additional weight.

 

Come to think about it, I can't recall any of the top sailors using compasses, though a few further back do.

What??? I don't have crew on my Laser nor do I have a compass mounted. Was my post that confusing?

 

I was talking about my Buccaneer 18, different boat. It's a two person dingy with jib and symmetrical kite in a forward launch tube.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Why you would call your Laser "Buccaneer" and mount two compasses I will never know. You have a crew?

 

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong.

 

Ditch the crew, too much additional weight.

 

Come to think about it, I can't recall any of the top sailors using compasses, though a few further back do.

What??? I don't have crew on my Laser nor do I have a compass mounted. Was my post that confusing?

 

I was talking about my Buccaneer 18, different boat. It's a two person dingy with jib and symmetrical kite in a forward launch tube.

 

 

I was kidding. Buccaneers look similar to Flying 15s which I sailed a little...

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a similar story in i420's back in the day. Plenty of mid fleet kids using a compass, but none to be seen on the boats of Outterige, Belcher, either Wilmot, or any of the other top sailors at that time. As races have gotten shorter, compasses have gotten less useful

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Gantt, Hey I use that Ritchie "cheapie" one on my Buccaneer and they work really well, accurate enough certainly for a dinghy. Actually I have two as the best mounting position on the Bucc puts the leeward one behind the mast and Vang especially for the crew. My crew is really good at keeping tack of the numbers and providing good data. Let's me focus on boat speed and I can keep my head out of the boat, works really well for us.

 

Why you would call your Laser "Buccaneer" and mount two compasses I will never know. You have a crew?

 

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong.

 

Ditch the crew, too much additional weight.

 

Come to think about it, I can't recall any of the top sailors using compasses, though a few further back do.

What??? I don't have crew on my Laser nor do I have a compass mounted. Was my post that confusing?

 

I was talking about my Buccaneer 18, different boat. It's a two person dingy with jib and symmetrical kite in a forward launch tube.

 

 

I was kidding. Buccaneers look similar to Flying 15s which I sailed a little...

OK now that we have that straightened out...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

Sort of agree on the legal action itself not really a hold up.

 

 

Maybe someone is hesitant to invest in a production ramp-up with future uncertain?

I would guess tooling/front side spending is a bigger deal for the spar than for the sail though. The spar would have to go through LP's hands at some point, right? Would think in US LP would have to drop a lot of coin to get it started.

Or, the various world builders can't get along well enough to get it done?

 

Wouldnt ILCA and all the builders and IP owners need to agree to pull the trigger?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

Sort of agree on the legal action itself not really a hold up.

 

 

Maybe someone is hesitant to invest in a production ramp-up with future uncertain?

I would guess tooling/front side spending is a bigger deal for the spar than for the sail though. The spar would have to go through LP's hands at some point, right? Would think in US LP would have to drop a lot of coin to get it started.

Or, the various world builders can't get along well enough to get it done?

 

Wouldnt ILCA and all the builders and IP owners need to agree to pull the trigger?

 

LP has already committed to making the sail available. There is no significant cost, thought that the design is ready to go, and once approved there is some profit to be made by the boat builders, and any agent that handles the sales. Personally, I hope that these are fewer than normal (and profits are less), but that's another story.

 

In the mean-time, it looks a little like the ILCA are dragging their heels? There should be a resolution made and voted on... in the same way that all of the other changes have taken place. Pretty sure you need the World Council first to agree. Can't see what the issue is.

 

It would be good for the sailors to have certainty. And would send a message that the ILCA continues to march on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the "advisory council" would have to all sit down and agree to the sail change. And since that council basically consists of the different parties of the lawsuit, snowball's chance in hell. I'd think the class would need to vote on it also, though I have seen posting here or on TLF that suggest a class vote isn't required.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

The builders have to sign off and they don't drink tea together these days.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm... they don't need to drink tea together, they just need to agree to pass a motion, one which they were recently enthusiastic. They don't even have to like eachother...

 

It's an opportunity for the ILCA (Tracy Usher) to show some leadership. It's something that the sailors want, something that the builders will profit from.

 

By doing nothing how does the ILCA appear?

 

If the ILCA started a motion (like they seemed to be on track to do), and if one party was against it, would would that party look like? What possible reasons could they give? It's actually in the builder's interests to agree to the new sail design and carbon top section.

 

Note that Bruce Kirby is not on the World Council, but Chris Spencer and Bill Crane are. (http://www.laserinternational.org/contact/worldcouncil) I can't imagine that either would not vote for the change. So it looks to me that the ILCA aren't progressing it. Does that mean the ILCA is not doing their job?

 

Representing the interests of the sailors is why they exist - right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I bet the builders will also be arguing over rights. Each will want to prevent the other one selling them. And lawyers being lawyers, what's the betting there'd be some dumb argument that agreeing on anything will have repercussions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tracy Usher (the ILCA prez) has been the driving force behind the development of the new sail for years. He's done everything humanly possible to get it done. If the ILCA are holding off on the sail it's because they don't have much choice.

 

A couple of years ago (before this whole mess kicked off) the LP rep on the advisory council voted against the new sail, effectively killing it off. Don't know what game they're playing now with their 'training' sail, but it's a game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there are pics and reports of it being tested.

 

Didn't know that the LP rep voted against the new sail. Was there a valid reason? Was it reported? Are the minutes available? Was it Bill Crane?

 

It's very irregular that LP voted against the new sail, and is now pushing the same sail as a practice sail. Makes it look difficult to work with LP.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there are pics and reports of it being tested.

 

Didn't know that the LP rep voted against the new sail. Was there a valid reason? Was it reported? Are the minutes available? Was it Bill Crane?

 

It's very irregular that LP voted against the new sail, and is now pushing the same sail as a practice sail. Makes it look difficult to work with LP.

 

Sail-World article here from late 2011 talks about it. Not independent info though, just quotes from Chris C. from PSA. He makes it sound like PSA was keen to get the new sail out but LP were holding it up. There may have been more to it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yes, there are pics and reports of it being tested.

 

Didn't know that the LP rep voted against the new sail. Was there a valid reason? Was it reported? Are the minutes available? Was it Bill Crane?

 

It's very irregular that LP voted against the new sail, and is now pushing the same sail as a practice sail. Makes it look difficult to work with LP.

 

Sail-World article here from late 2011 talks about it. Not independent info though, just quotes from Chris C. from PSA. He makes it sound like PSA was keen to get the new sail out but LP were holding it up. There may have been more to it.

 

Just read the article. There are lots of statements by Tracy Usher, including:

 

"This is a routine equipment change so the change goes through the Laser construction manual. Yes it had to be evaluated, it had to be costed and then it had to be voted on by the World Council (it received unanimous approval) and its been awaiting signatures from all of the Laser builders. Unfortunately it seems it will have to wait awhile until the current disagreements are resolved."

 

Rob Kothe (author of the article) wrote: "In the interests of balance, the author sought Bill Crane's viewpoint. There must be a second side to this story, but in the last two weeks we've not received a response. Hopefully we can provide one when we report on the mast top issue, which will probably dominate Laser boat park frustrations at Perth 2011."

 

I am left with the impression that the ILCA World Council is keen, And that Chris Caldecoat (PSA) is keen, however the introduction at that time was blocked by a builder.

 

The article was published 11 November, 2011, so this was after Laser Performance had unilaterally decided that Kirby's attempt to sell his interests to Global Sailing had somehow invalidated the same contract that they had bought into - and that was some time after they had stopped paying royalties. It was prior to Bruce Kirby terminating the builder's contract with Laser Performance, prior to Kirby's legal action and prior to the ILCA/ISAF releasing plaques to Laser Performance.

 

Now Laser Performance is taking pre-orders for what looks like the same sail design and will sell them in early 2015 as practice sails. There is no mention of a carbon top section - which is a very important improvement to the Laser.

 

I just want to be really clear about the role that Laser Performance / William (Bill) Crane is playing here.

 

I would like to see the ILCA publicly recommence the initiative to introduce the new sail / top section and call for Laser builders to publicly respond.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently Bill is quite versatile, from his Linkedin profile:

 

His work has encompassed a vast array of products and services that range from cosmetics, personal care and fragrance to the parenting, marine and electronics industries.

 

Is "parenting" really an industry?

 

As chairman of LaserPerformance:

 

… I am accountable for the management of our corporate charter which brings together all LaserPerformance stakeholders worldwide to enable a competitive organization that will always surpass all expectations of excellence and service.

 

Cool. Perhaps Laser sailors that have dealt with LP can comment on whether their expectations of excellence have been met or not, though no specific criteria have been provided so difficult to measure.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently Bill is quite versatile, from his Linkedin profile:

 

His work has encompassed a vast array of products and services that range from cosmetics, personal care and fragrance to the parenting, marine and electronics industries.

 

Is "parenting" really an industry?

 

Yup. Maclaren who manufactures strollers / buggies / push chairs.

 

Maclaren are "PARTNERS & SUPPLIERS" of the ISAF.

 

Also Maclaren sailing - sponsors of US Olympic Laser rep Rob Crane who finished 29th in the London Olympics - who (to complete the circle) is the nephew of Bill Crane. Rob was the first person that Maclaren sailing sponsored, announced on the Laser Performance website (but since the page has been taken down. This in no way is intended as a slight on Rob Crane who no doubt worked very hard to represent the US.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some real world notes on how a sail can change the game:

Sailed this sail in Rush Creek Yacht Club's Fall Dinghy Fest on a 40 year old "yard art" Laser as Portsmouth (zero Lasers in attendance: Just MCs, VX and Portsmouth).

 

image-XL.jpg

 

 

It was a great regatta on the south end of Lake Ray Hubbard with excellent wind out of the North and an awesome RC. I think the wind touched 20 knots while we were on course. Here is the weather report:
image-M.jpg

 

High of 66 F and winds 16 to 28 mph. That is perfect sailing weather.

This sail delivers about the same Portsmouth number. It does not deck seal block to block attempting to double the aspect ratio, but it has 5 more square feet high.


Same Portsmouth, but different game. It does change the character of the game, kind of like what you hear on the discussion boards of lighter boats with square headed sails. Reaches are great, but downwind by the lee is not as dramatically fast - at least for this first regatta. There were no capsizes or water boom strikes.

The broad tipped sail has a different shedding frequency (stroganoff number) than the tip of a triangular Laser sail. It is no Galloping Gertie by the lee.



This particular square tipped sail has an almost full panel laminate window to stablize the draft down low and a leach cut to invert/soften the lowest full length batten. It de powered with no drama. For a 176lb 53 year old sailer who had not sailed a Laser for 10 years, it was perfect. Sailing upwind at 18 knots was way more fun than before as the full lengths get rid of all the flapping up top.

This sail design does make the game different. The polar diagram is different. For me, this weekend on this perfect sailing weather fall day, it was better. It makes a safer, more social boat for cold windy days. On a summer day with medium breeze: a Laser by the lee, with a short top batten and an active leech. Conditions like you find at Rush Creek in autumn with real wind out of the north is a rare treat for most sailors.


Hope this answered any lingering questions about why the Laser sail is keeping its addictivly unstable shape.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

 

Because of how the class/rights holder/builder relationship is set up it means that any change like this requires the agreement of all of them before it can go to the ISAF to be approved.

 

Last I heard it was LP USA (as opposed to LP Europe) who were not agreeing to the change. Although if my 'spy' at LP is to be believed it is not them who are not agreeing.

 

To be fair if their builder agreement has been terminated why is their agreement required at all? Although to ignore them might have future repercussions depending on the outcome of the court case. This could be why ILCA are currently sitting on the fence.

 

IMO it is wrong for LP to release this sail to market at this time. My local club has already said it is not acceptable for Laser fleet racing (even though we do allow replicas within reason).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Because of how the class/rights holder/builder relationship is set up it means that any change like this requires the agreement of all of them before it can go to the ISAF to be approved.

 

Last I heard it was LP USA (as opposed to LP Europe) who were not agreeing to the change. Although if my 'spy' at LP is to be believed it is not them who are not agreeing.

To be fair if their builder agreement has been terminated why is their agreement required at all? Although to ignore them might have future repercussions depending on the outcome of the court case. This could be why ILCA are currently sitting on the fence.

 

IMO it is wrong for LP to release this sail to market at this time. My local club has already said it is not acceptable for Laser fleet racing (even though we do allow replicas within reason).

LP's builder agreement with Kirby has been cancelled, but since the fundamental rule change they don't need an agreement with Kirby, only the class/ISAF. And they still have that.

 

Who does your spy at LP say is causing the hold up?

 

If it doesn't happen soon it won't happen until after Rio. Would probably need to be before the start of he 2015 Euro season at the latest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair if their builder agreement has been terminated why is their agreement required at all? Although to ignore them might have future repercussions depending on the outcome of the court case. This could be why ILCA are currently sitting on the fence.

 

The ILCA (and ISAF) came off the fence when they issued the plaques.

 

The court case will determine whether Kirby had the right to terminate Laser Performance's builder agreement.

 

I can't see any reason (legal or otherwise) that the ILCA or anyone else would not proceed with the new sail and carbon top section.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see any reason (legal or otherwise) that the ILCA or anyone else would not proceed with the new sail and carbon top section.

 

Brainstorm:

1. Olympic Cycle - Let's change it right before the Olympics? Probably not. (waiting till after Rio?)

2. After all this fighting will increasing the price to race (a new sail for some) actually encourage membership with everyone scared off? You could race the old one, but could you feel fast? A new section and sail is a lot of money for people who go the intensity route every three or four years. Thinking ILCA don't need another fight.

3. Is it like the Tasar where you're actually making it better, or is this a lipstick on a pig thing? Convince the membership. Cost seems to be the biggest disgruntlement with sails among the populous - not the sails themselves. I'll sail shit if its cheap. That's the American way.

 

Isn't LP already selling the new sail anyway? Pre order is about the same delivery date as their regular products anyway...

http://shopna.laserperformance.com/laser-standard-mark-ii-sail/

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I can't see any reason (legal or otherwise) that the ILCA or anyone else would not proceed with the new sail and carbon top section.

 

Brainstorm:

1. Olympic Cycle - Let's change it right before the Olympics? Probably not. (waiting till after Rio?)

2. After all this fighting will increasing the price to race (a new sail for some) actually encourage membership with everyone scared off? You could race the old one, but could you feel fast? A new section and sail is a lot of money for people who go the intensity route every three or four years. Thinking ILCA don't need another fight.

3. Is it like the Tasar where you're actually making it better, or is this a lipstick on a pig thing? Convince the membership. Cost seems to be the biggest disgruntlement with sails among the populous - not the sails themselves. I'll sail shit if its cheap. That's the American way.

 

Isn't LP already selling the new sail anyway? Pre order is about the same delivery date as their regular products anyway...

http://shopna.laserperformance.com/laser-standard-mark-ii-sail/

 

 

The issue with the current sail is that it is too expensive and doesn't last very long before the competitive life is over.

 

The new design has been carefully developed to ensure that there is very little if any performance gain over the current sail but that has a much longer competitive life.

 

LP are selling the sails but they are not (and any they sell until they are approved) will never be class legal because they do not have the 'button' which means they are official (the red button indicates that the royalty has been paid).

 

As for the carbon top section, this is still a little way back down the approval route than the sail (to my knowledge) but will still require all parties to agree, something that is unlikely to happen this side of the court case.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The significant change since November 2011 are that Laser Performance has had an apparent change of heart, by announcing that it will be selling the sail as a practice sail.

 

I agree that the Olympic cycle needs consideration. Having said that, the last time it was up for consideration was November 2011. At that time it was speculated that they were after a decision that would see it used after the 2012 Olympics.

 

When we did the testing we used two sails - one new and one that had over 150 days of sailing on it! It was incredible to see that the new sail and the old one both looked and performed similarly. Most importantly though, I think the sail was very comparable speed wise to the old one.

When will the new sail be able to be used?

Certainly not in time for Perth 2011, perhaps after the Olympics?

Chris Caldecoat, just back from the International Laser Class World Council Meeting in London last weekend, shook his head. Incredibly it’s clearly going to be 2013!

‘Sailors are getting very frustrated, everyone wants more durable sails. There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss. Once Bill signs, Laser Performance, ourselves and the other Laser builders can begin supplying this new sail.

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Perth-2011---Laser-Class-drama-stalls-new-Laser-sail/90560

 

The time to make the decision is before the Olympics - in other words during the next 18 months. Having said that, because of the objective of the sail was to perform much the same, and indications are that it does, then it doesn't matter so much what part of the Olympic cycle it is introduced.

 

 

Tracy Usher: ‘The goal of the Laser sail project was to produce a better quality, more durable sail that didn’t change the game. Hence the idea of being to extend the lifetime of the sail, but make sure that if you had the old sail you could still compete.

---

‘Recently some of the New Zealand Laser squad who will be in Perth, including Andrew Murdoch, took the sail out, used it a few times and came back and said that as far as they could see the sail matched very evenly with the current sails. So there wasn’t any advantage or disadvantage to having the sail, but it was obviously a much nicer sail and clearly more durable.


---

Clay Johnson, the leading US Laser contender going into the 2011 Perth Laser World Championships, reported after a West Coast training camp 'in my opinion the (new) sail is a 'no brainer' for the long-term success of the Laser. The sail is made from 4.5 ounce cloth (an upgrade from the 3.8 ounce cloth that we currently have) and is radial cut. It has a bigger window at the bottom to make vision on the course easier. It's also much more aesthetically pleasing, that is there are no ugly wrinkles between the joint of the top/bottom section and the end of the boom.

'When we did the testing we used two sails - one new and one that had over 150 days of sailing on it! It was incredible to see that the new sail and the old one both looked and performed similarly. Most importantly though, I think the sail was very comparable speed wise to the old one.

 

Now that Laser Performance are in favor of the new sail, I hope that the ILCA pushes for early introduction.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Chris Caldecoat said in November 2011:

‘Sailors are getting very frustrated, everyone wants more durable sails. There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss. Once Bill signs, Laser Performance, ourselves and the other Laser builders can begin supplying this new sail.

 

Can the ILCA confirm that all we are waiting for is Bill Crane to approve? Please?

 

...and an open question to Bill Crane: Have you signed, and if not, what the heck are you playing at?

Link to post
Share on other sites

What about a windvane in the masttop for fucking $5?

 

...Lasers!

 

A wind indicator at the top of the masthead is allowed, and specifically appears in the "LIST OF COMPLIANT AND NON-COMPLIANT ITEMS". It appears as item number 63. The official rules are here: http://laserinternational.org/info/measurement0

 

Been using one for years, including in a couple of ILCA sanctioned events.

 

I'm not so sure that you can use it for fornicating with $5 as you suggest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Chris Caldecoat said in November 2011:Sailors are getting very frustrated, everyone wants more durable sails. There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss. Once Bill signs, Laser Performance, ourselves and the other Laser builders can begin supplying this new sail.

Can the ILCA confirm that all we are waiting for is Bill Crane to approve? Please?

 

...and an open question to Bill Crane: Have you signed, and if not, what the heck are you playing at?

With the powers vested in me by this keypad and Internet connection, I hereby appoint you Dinghy Anarchy's Chief Investigative Reporter

Pick up the phone tomorrow morning, call and interview the following:

Bill Crane

Sherry

Eric Faust

Tracy Usher

 

 

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

Very tempting.

 

It would be extremely interesting to hear Mr Crane's response to this question.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can imagine how that call would go...

 

Gantt: Good morning, Mr. Crane. This is Gantt calling on behalf of Sailing Anarchy members. I would like to ask you a couple questions regarding your reluctance to approve a new, more durable sail for the Laser, as well as a new, more durable carbon top section.

 

Bill Crane: Fuck off.

 

Click.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can imagine how that call would go...

 

Gantt: Good morning, Mr. Crane. This is Gantt calling on behalf of Sailing Anarchy members. I would like to ask you a couple questions regarding your reluctance to approve a new, more durable sail for the Laser, as well as a new, more durable carbon top section.

 

Bill Crane: Fuck off.

 

Click.

 

Sounds like a bit of fun.

 

Go on Mr Crane. Just one question... It is just a tiny little question...

 

What could possibly happen?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the conversation began with a request to help sort rumors, lies, and bullshit, from the truth I bet Bill Would enjoy a conversation

 

I can imagine how that call would go...

 

Gantt: Good morning, Mr. Crane. This is Gantt calling on behalf of Sailing Anarchy members. I would like to ask you a couple questions to help sort rumors, lies, and bullshit, from the truth regarding the pending approval of a new, more durable sail for the Laser, as well as a new, more durable carbon top section. Have you a couple moments to spare?

 

Bill Crane: Fuck off.

 

Click.

 

Go for it, Gantt!

 

Whats the over/under on Guv sock puppets in this thread? I'm going with 4 and a hook. Actually, I'd take the over on that.

 

The over/under on the duration of Gantt's call with Bill Crane is 20 seconds... I'll take the under (and no slow-talking, Gantt!)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Chris Caldecoat said in November 2011:Sailors are getting very frustrated, everyone wants more durable sails. There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss. Once Bill signs, Laser Performance, ourselves and the other Laser builders can begin supplying this new sail.

Can the ILCA confirm that all we are waiting for is Bill Crane to approve? Please?

 

...and an open question to Bill Crane: Have you signed, and if not, what the heck are you playing at?

With the powers vested in me by this keypad and Internet connection, I hereby appoint you Dinghy Anarchy's Chief Investigative Reporter

Pick up the phone tomorrow morning, call and interview the following:

Bill Crane

Sherry

Eric Faust

Tracy Usher

 

 

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

Very tempting.

 

It would be extremely interesting to hear Mr Crane's response to this question.

 

Still very tempting...

 

It's interesting that Crane is in the position he is. I can't imagine, nor has he communicated, any justification for him taking the position he has, except for the allegation that the Sponsors are trying to take over the world production of Lasers (with very flimsy evidence) and that LP / PSA were potentially fighting for the Asian market.

 

What really annoys me is that Kirby found it necessary to try to enforce the contract in the first place. At his expense.

 

When all he really wanted was to retire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly, he was pleased as punch when the GRP foils were introduced in 2010. These were introduced for the same reason as the new sail and top section - durability with no noticeable performance differential. A conspiracy theorist could probably find a line to draw in to Mr Crane's commercial interests in all this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

....that the Sponsors are trying to take over the world production of Lasers (with very flimsy evidence) ....

 

I meant Spencers, (Not "Sponsors") owners of PSA and Global Sailing, who have been involved with Lasers since the 1970s. Chris Spencer is currently serving on the ILCA World Council.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What about a windvane in the masttop for fucking $5?

 

...Lasers!

 

A wind indicator at the top of the masthead is allowed, and specifically appears in the "LIST OF COMPLIANT AND NON-COMPLIANT ITEMS". It appears as item number 63. The official rules are here: http://laserinternational.org/info/measurement0

 

Been using one for years, including in a couple of ILCA sanctioned events.

 

I'm not so sure that you can use it for fornicating with $5 as you suggest.

Funny!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Commercial interests:

I certainly hope so!! I want a builder who is sufficiently financially sound to offer fabulous customer support.

I want a builder who makes so much money on lasers it decides to offer additional new busts for larger championships

I want a builder who sees racing as a gold mine and makes business decisions targeting maximizing profits on increased production

 

Where does all this money come from?

 

I want a sailing community that stays heathy through thick and thin times.

 

A portion of the sailing sport ought to be able to run on almost no money, so people are not compelled to leave the sport when money gets tight.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Chris Caldecoat said in November 2011:

‘Sailors are getting very frustrated, everyone wants more durable sails. There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss. Once Bill signs, Laser Performance, ourselves and the other Laser builders can begin supplying this new sail.

 

Can the ILCA confirm that all we are waiting for is Bill Crane to approve? Please?

 

...and an open question to Bill Crane: Have you signed, and if not, what the heck are you playing at?

 

Andy Roy (North American Laser Class President) addressed this question in his report in the recent Fall Issue of The Laser Sailor, the class newsletter. This is what he said...

 

Several TLS Issues ago I reported that the long awaited new and improved Laser Standard Rig sail will be introduced very soon. Well, even though the sail is ready and has been for some time, all parties (i.e. all the Laser builders) have not signed off on it in accordance with the Laser class constitution. This is, of course, quite disappointing, as there is no valid reason for holding back the sail's approval. I notice that Laser Performance is now advertising the sail on its website as a practice sail (they also state that it is not yet class legal.) Let's hope sanity prevails and the final signatures from PSA will soon enable the sail's release.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"as there is no valid reason for holding back the sail's approval". I notice that Laser Performance is now advertising the sail on its website as a practice sail (they also state that it is not yet class legal.)

There's something very ironic about Laser performance advertising illegal practice sails...

 

I wonder if all parties think there is no valid reason for holding back the sail's approval? Its not hard to think of all sorts of bones of contention there could be in the current environment. Supposing, (to pull a completely uninformed guess out of thin air with no evidence behind it at all), one party was demanding a substantial license fee from the other for every sail sold? Easy to see how it could be "we're not signing until you sign a contract to pay us our license fee, or alternatively "we're not signing while you demand that absurd fee from us"...

Link to post
Share on other sites

It may have built by Hyde/North (I don't know, but according to the patent found here: http://www.google.com/patents/US8739721

 

The following information is listed:

 

You can't tell that the inventors still own the IP, however for them not to, there must be a formal contract - and I'd say the likely candidate is the ILCA.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on guys, like I said I pulled a possible bone of contention out of thin air. There must be plenty of others. I bet that if PSA aren't signing it off they believe they have a valid reason not to, even if the NA ILCA don't know what that reason is or don't like it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The sail was developed by ILCA and Hyde/North. I do not believe the builders were involved so the only royalty payable is the one to get the class 'button' on the sail.

The use of copyrighted sail insignia would have to be cleared? Maybe all worldwide rights holders would need to sign off? Or at least be on speaking terms to work it out?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The sail was developed by ILCA and Hyde/North. I do not believe the builders were involved so the only royalty payable is the one to get the class 'button' on the sail.

The use of copyrighted sail insignia would have to be cleared? Maybe all worldwide rights holders would need to sign off? Or at least be on speaking terms to work it out?

 

The builders have to own or be able to use the Laser logo and name TM in their region in order to be a builder so it is not that. It is because 1 of the builders has not signed. Last I heard if was LP now people are saying it is PSA.

 

But there you go....the reason is the same regardless of who has not signed it off!

Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the class rules sails have to be built according to the class construction manual by an approved builder.

 

ISAF and ILCA control the construction manual, so they would have to approve a new sail.

 

If the sail is going to carry the starburst logo, that would need the approval of the trademark owner in each region. If ISAF/ILCA approved the sail for the construction manual then LP could sell it in Europe/USA without approval of PSA and vice versa. They don't have right of veto on the use of the trademark.

 

Interestingly, the class rules do not appear to require the starburst logo on the sails ( I was surprised not to find this requirement, so please point it out if I have missed this). So at first glance it might appear that ISAF and ILCA could approve the sail without the blessing of LP, PSA and the Japanese trademark owner. BUT....the sail has to be supplied by an approved builder.

 

An approved builder has to meet 2 requirements:

1. They have to be approved by ILCA and ISAF

2. They have to have the rights to use the Laser starburst trademark.

 

(To the chagrin of the owners of BKI- whoever that was or is- there is not a third requirement)

 

 

 

So in order to build and supply a class legal sail, you have to (1) Get it approved by ISAF and (2) have access to that trademark, even if it doesn't go on the sail.

 

Hope that helps.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how any MBA can sell stockholders on obsoleting the largest contribution dollar item in the product portfolio, especially if it is a once a year consumable. With Olympic status there is no viable substitute.

 

I think they are happy with how things are.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how any MBA can sell stockholders on obsoleting the largest contribution dollar item in the product portfolio, especially if it is a once a year consumable. With Olympic status there is no viable substitute.

There is a viable substitute for most people. Sailors are buying replicas in droves.
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The sail was developed by ILCA and Hyde/North. I do not believe the builders were involved so the only royalty payable is the one to get the class 'button' on the sail.

The use of copyrighted sail insignia would have to be cleared? Maybe all worldwide rights holders would need to sign off? Or at least be on speaking terms to work it out?

 

The builders have to own or be able to use the Laser logo and name TM in their region in order to be a builder so it is not that. It is because 1 of the builders has not signed. Last I heard if was LP now people are saying it is PSA.

 

But there you go....the reason is the same regardless of who has not signed it off!

 

 

Who is saying that it is PSA? I gained the impression that all parties except LP / Bill Crane had already agreed from the article in Sailing World.

 

I'd be fascinated to hear the sources Jeffers, and to check them out if possible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is saying that it is PSA? I gained the impression that all parties except LP / Bill Crane had already agreed from the article in Sailing World.

 

Read the above post by Tiller Man where he quotes Andy Roy:

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=145562&page=20#entry4710167

 

Let's hope sanity prevails and the final signatures from PSA will soon enable the sail's release.

Do you still want to meet your heroes, Gantt? ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It would be nice to see the tack tick micro compass approved for competition..

It would not!!! All that would do is add complexity and cost to play the game. There are plenty of classes, like your J24, where you can play with instruments if that is your thing.

 

It seems sailing has a fair percentage of thoroughly conservative types. Recently an attempt was made to introduce a self–draining Sabot. The idea is that kids at the top of the flee don't capsize so only the kids at the back benefit by not spending forever bailing after a capsize.

 

The boat had identical weight and performance to a standard boat (and didn't drain that quickly), but the class said "No".

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The sail was developed by ILCA and Hyde/North. I do not believe the builders were involved so the only royalty payable is the one to get the class 'button' on the sail.

The use of copyrighted sail insignia would have to be cleared? Maybe all worldwide rights holders would need to sign off? Or at least be on speaking terms to work it out?

 

The builders have to own or be able to use the Laser logo and name TM in their region in order to be a builder so it is not that. It is because 1 of the builders has not signed. Last I heard if was LP now people are saying it is PSA.

 

But there you go....the reason is the same regardless of who has not signed it off!

 

 

Who is saying that it is PSA? I gained the impression that all parties except LP / Bill Crane had already agreed from the article in Sailing World.

 

I'd be fascinated to hear the sources Jeffers, and to check them out if possible.

 

My source is an employee of LP UK and I cannot say anymore than that to protect them. Anyone who know me personally (especially in sailing circles) will know who it is though.

 

Be interesting to know what PSA's take is on this, any antipodean anarchists have any inside info?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It seems that a builder of the Sabre class in Australia has taken LP's lead and has acquired the trademark rights to that class. http://www.sabre.org.au

Can it be that there is a bigger jerk that Farzad Rastegar?

Why are you both pointing to LP/Rastegar in this case?

Brett Young's action reminds me more of the actions taken by Bruce Kirby in regard to Laser and starburst logo trademarks and his attempts to acquire full control of the class..

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

It seems that a builder of the Sabre class in Australia has taken LP's lead and has acquired the trademark rights to that class. http://www.sabre.org.au

Can it be that there is a bigger jerk that Farzad Rastegar?

Why are you both pointing to LP/Rastegar in this case?

Brett Young's action reminds me more of the actions taken by Bruce Kirby in regard to Laser and starburst logo trademarks and his attempts to acquire full control of the class..

 

To be fair it was a mistake by BKI to relinquish this control in the first place. If he has control and kept it with the rights then he could have had more control over the builders.

 

In the distant past this somehow got split from the Design Rights and is (part) of the reason why the class is in such a mess.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The sail was developed by ILCA and Hyde/North. I do not believe the builders were involved so the only royalty payable is the one to get the class 'button' on the sail.

The use of copyrighted sail insignia would have to be cleared? Maybe all worldwide rights holders would need to sign off? Or at least be on speaking terms to work it out?

 

The builders have to own or be able to use the Laser logo and name TM in their region in order to be a builder so it is not that. It is because 1 of the builders has not signed. Last I heard if was LP now people are saying it is PSA.

 

But there you go....the reason is the same regardless of who has not signed it off!

 

 

Who is saying that it is PSA? I gained the impression that all parties except LP / Bill Crane had already agreed from the article in Sailing World.

 

I'd be fascinated to hear the sources Jeffers, and to check them out if possible.

 

My source is an employee of LP UK and I cannot say anymore than that to protect them. Anyone who know me personally (especially in sailing circles) will know who it is though.

 

Be interesting to know what PSA's take is on this, any antipodean anarchists have any inside info?

 

Andy Roy (North American Laser Class President) addressed this question in his report in the recent Fall Issue of The Laser Sailor, the class newsletter. This is what he said...

 

Several TLS Issues ago I reported that the long awaited new and improved Laser Standard Rig sail will be introduced very soon. Well, even though the sail is ready and has been for some time, all parties (i.e. all the Laser builders) have not signed off on it in accordance with the Laser class constitution. This is, of course, quite disappointing, as there is no valid reason for holding back the sail's approval. I notice that Laser Performance is now advertising the sail on its website as a practice sail (they also state that it is not yet class legal.) Let's hope sanity prevails and the final signatures from PSA will soon enable the sail's release.

 

I have verified from more than one source that it's true that PSA are not approving the new sail.

 

Rereading the November 2011 article, and taking in consideration that at that time there was a lot of stuff happening - the vote for the fundamental rule change ended in September 2011 - the threat of legal action by Bruce Kirby - the issues put forward by ILCA at the time. I think that everyone, including the ILCA PSA, LP and most of all us sailors were disappointed that the new sail did not get adopted at that time.

 

I still have not put all the pieces together, however it's fair to say that things were falling apart in November 2011.

 

Its really easy to jump to conclusions (as I did with LP), to say it's a simple matter of PSA not signing. What exactly did Chris Caldecoat mean when he said "There has been unanimous support at the World Council for this equipment change but for the last two years we have been waiting for Bill Crane from one of the Laser builders, Laser Performance from the USA, to come to the table to discuss."? It sounds like he was et the end of his tether.

 

We know that this was prior to the legal action. It would seem that there was something that needed to be discussed - and a simple signoff of the new sail that everyone wanted, hardly needed a discussion. What did need discussing at that time, were the issues that cumulated in Kirby's legal action.

 

Laser Performance's planned release of the unapproved new sail may even have more to do with creating a distraction that is designed to get everyone to focus on that PSA has not signed. It seems to me that LP planning to release the new sail without official approval in January 2015, is more a legal ruse than trying to resolve anything. The timing is after discovery for the case closes. Maybe being a co-signatory means at some level recognizing that Laser Performance is a legitimate builder of Lasers, that signing somehow undermines Kirby terminating the builder's contract with Laser Performance.

 

It seems to me more and more that LP's planned release of the sail has more to do with legal consequences than improving things for sailors.

 

Now, in 2014, PSA has still not signed the approval which given the above is more understandable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said...LP say it is PSA, PSA say it is LP.

 

Doesn;t change the bottom line which is that the sail ain't approved cos someone has not signed.

 

In all fairness as there is currently no licensed builder for Europe and NA the sail COULD be approved. The problem would then be distributing it as you have no one who should be selling it.

 

Just another damaging argument for a class that is already seeing grass roots numbers falling (certainly in the UK).

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said...LP say it is PSA, PSA say it is LP.

 

You'd have to wonder why our elected representatives haven't seen fit to clear the air for us. It's great to see Andy mention it in the ILCA-NA newsletter but we deserve to know much more of the story. In the latest ILCA newsletter, Andy says the new sail is coming 'soon'. What's the hold up? Why no mention at all of the legal saga?

 

There's way too much secrecy in the goings on of the class, hiding behind commercial-in-confidence excuses. First thing that happens when someone new joins the world council is that they're given a lecture about everything they need to keep confidential. I sometimes wonder if they forget whose interests they're there to represent. Probably unfair as they're all good people with good intentions, but seriously, why can't they talk in public? Are they really that scared of what might happen if they do?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they really that scared of what might happen if they do?

 

Quite probably. I know of members of another sailing forum who were threatened with legal action by LP lawyers.

 

The joke was on the lawyer though as the people posting were from Europe not NA so (im)politely told them to p*ss off.

 

I know Tracy Usher used to be a regular poster on another forum. Since he became part of the world council (President I think) he has been very quiet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Are they really that scared of what might happen if they do?

 

Quite probably. I know of members of another sailing forum who were threatened with legal action by LP lawyers.

 

The joke was on the lawyer though as the people posting were from Europe not NA so (im)politely told them to p*ss off.

 

I know Tracy Usher used to be a regular poster on another forum. Since he became part of the world council (President I think) he has been very quiet.

 

 

I suppose the difference is that previously he spoke for himself, now I guess he must feel he speaks for the ILCA. Possibly Heini went the other way, made quite a few statements that he / the ILCA later regretted. I don't know exactly why, but I get the feeling that with Tracy the ILCA is in safe hands.

 

I short while ago, I stated that that I couldn't see a valid reason that the new sail wasn't released. Now I get it. There's a vicious circle going on - my best guess is - PSA won't sign because of the potential legal consequences - LP have painted themselves into a corner and needs Kirby to go away - trouble is that Kirby won't back down because he believes that he's in the right, wants his termination to be upheld and royalties paid - and the ILCA has to work with LP or they are biting the hand that feeds them (to extent of the income that LP provides).

 

I wish that the ILCA was more communicative, I have real difficulty understanding their position.

 

Just a few more weeks until discovery ends, then court...

Link to post
Share on other sites