Jump to content

Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch


Recommended Posts

I wonder if anyone will order through PSA (using sailing mates) as a part of boycotting LP because of the Kirby action?

Nope. Maybe the other way around?

 

I know of one who is buying a new sail from PSA and using it in North America, for him it's a matter of principle in not dealing with LP. Do you know of any who are buying in the US and using the sail in Oceania to avoid dealing with PSA or their agents?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

When are they going to make a decision? I need to know whether I should be training in my RS Aero or my Laser for Paris 2024.     

@WCB  i seriously doubt there is a soul contributing to this thread who honestly disagrees with my perceptions or the reasoning behind my effort to establish an AERO fleet in Texas and at my home

Yes. This looks incredibly similar  to the recent dispute that LP had with the Sunfish class.  When it came time for the Sunfish class to renew their license to use the various trademarks belongi

Posted Images

 

 

I know of one who is buying a new sail from PSA and using it in North America, for him it's a matter of principle in not dealing with LP. Do you know of any who are buying in the US and using the sail in Oceania to avoid dealing with PSA or their agents?

 

 

I would have a very hard time picking sides.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I know of one who is buying a new sail from PSA and using it in North America, for him it's a matter of principle in not dealing with LP. Do you know of any who are buying in the US and using the sail in Oceania to avoid dealing with PSA or their agents?

 

 

I would have a very hard time picking sides.

 

Word. You could not pay me to buy anything from PSA, but equally, I don't think you are supporting LP when buying a sail in the US. Welcome correction on this but if purchasing from APS for example, I suspect the various cuts and profits go to APS, North, and the class, and not LP. Not even sure Kirby gets a cut of a stand-alone sail sale. Been a long time since I read those contracts so take that with a grain of salt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

I know of one who is buying a new sail from PSA and using it in North America, for him it's a matter of principle in not dealing with LP. Do you know of any who are buying in the US and using the sail in Oceania to avoid dealing with PSA or their agents?

 

 

I would have a very hard time picking sides.

 

Word. You could not pay me to buy anything from PSA, but equally, I don't think you are supporting LP when buying a sail in the US. Welcome correction on this but if purchasing from APS for example, I suspect the various cuts and profits go to APS, North, and the class, and not LP. Not even sure Kirby gets a cut of a stand-alone sail sale. Been a long time since I read those contracts so take that with a grain of salt.

 

You really are a bitter and twisted person who has no idea of what is going on.

 

1 - LP makes a lot of money out of new sails, more than the sailmaker and the dealers. They have been responsible for pushing prices on all parts including sails.

 

2 - your hatred of PSA is, IMO and based on the following facts both irrational and ill placed. The PSA team here in Oz are deeply involved with the class and have shown they care a huge amount about it. In my experience of knowing them and having spoken to class members, I believe them to have a completely different attitude to the LP team, and in particular the LP owner who only cares about the amount of profit he makes out of the sailors. As an outsider to the class who therefore has no axe to grind either way, I really cannot understand how anybody could miss that and support LP over PSA. It is my belief that if LP were out the way, over time, the class would become relatively cheaper and have far better support from the builders.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

I know of one who is buying a new sail from PSA and using it in North America, for him it's a matter of principle in not dealing with LP. Do you know of any who are buying in the US and using the sail in Oceania to avoid dealing with PSA or their agents?

 

 

I would have a very hard time picking sides.

 

Word. You could not pay me to buy anything from PSA, but equally, I don't think you are supporting LP when buying a sail in the US. Welcome correction on this but if purchasing from APS for example, I suspect the various cuts and profits go to APS, North, and the class, and not LP. Not even sure Kirby gets a cut of a stand-alone sail sale. Been a long time since I read those contracts so take that with a grain of salt.

 

You really are a bitter and twisted person who has no idea of what is going on.

 

1 - LP makes a lot of money out of new sails, more than the sailmaker and the dealers. They have been responsible for pushing prices on all parts including sails.

 

2 - your hatred of PSA is, IMO and based on the following facts both irrational and ill placed. The PSA team here in Oz are deeply involved with the class and have shown they care a huge amount about it. In my experience of knowing them and having spoken to class members, I believe them to have a completely different attitude to the LP team, and in particular the LP owner who only cares about the amount of profit he makes out of the sailors. As an outsider to the class who therefore has no axe to grind either way, I really cannot understand how anybody could miss that and support LP over PSA. It is my belief that if LP were out the way, over time, the class would become relatively cheaper and have far better support from the builders.

 

Yes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Be very wary about total costs when you've paid all the duties and so on. When I sourced sails (not Laser) from overseas it worked out a lot more than I thought it would after paying all the bills, and that was at a time when the relevant exchange rate was pretty good.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be buying one of the new sails out of the US as I believe PSA are raping Australians with the $990AUD price.

 

Including battens, LP's North American price is US$594, using today's exchange rate, that's A$817.

 

In the UK/Europe, the sail is £395 + £29.95 for the battens (British pounds) = £425.95 and again using today's exchange rate, that's A$905.

 

Buying PSA, you get a sail bag (value of about A$25), meaning that you get the best deal in North America, and pretty much the same in Europe and Australia. The differences are not that great.

 

If you comment that PSA is ripping off Laser sailors in Oceania, then by your account LP is doing the same in Europe.

 

Don't know how much it costs for freight - but the landed cost from the US would be about the same - or even more if priority freight is used.

 

Don't think that anyone in the equation is getting rich, though I do think the equation can be improved - to the benefit of everybody. The ILCA is taking an undisclosed additional amount to repay for the legal costs associated with supposed Higher prices opens the door to the cheaper copies (aka 'practice sails'), who in spite of any legal/copyright measures will no doubt respond in time to the new sail (if they haven't already).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people, even in Australia, don't seem to realise the increased costs of doing business here. And it is this ignorance that allows some companies to well over charge while others do the right thing by customers. I have no idea which PSA is falling into, but doing a straight price comparison with other countries never tells the correct story.

 

The biggest issues are caused by distance. First, we get screwed on the import side, every which way. Because of the length of time it takes to get goods, importers have to bring in larger amounts and hold larger stock levels than those close to where the goods are manufactured. Take Laser sails. LPE in the UK can pull down stock at a single days notice (assuming Hyde have stock). The lead time for PSA is at least 6 weeks, if customs are working well. In theory, LPE can pay for their sails up to 4 weeks after selling them, PSA have to pay before they receive them even if they have the same credit terms. The furthest distance that LPE in the UK would have to send a sail is considered a "local" deliver in Oz. More normally, the goods come into Sydney and need to be distributed 1000's of kms across the country. This effects the price of all sails - should the Laser sailor in, say, Darwin or Perth pay more for his sail than somebody in Sydney just because PSA decide to land their goods in Sydney? Distribution costs here in Oz are ridiculous compared with any other country I have ever done business in. And the comments above are just for starters because the overall cost of doing business here in Oz is significantly higher than in the UK.

 

I cannot say for sure, but I seriously doubt that PSA is ripping off their customers on the Laser sail. And for those who want to, you can always buy a sail from overseas and import it yourself.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot say for sure, but I seriously doubt that PSA is ripping off their customers on the Laser sail. And for those who want to, you can always buy a sail from overseas and import it yourself.

 

About ten years ago, Laser sails in Australia were $1100, plus numbers. Word spread that you could buy a sail from the US for $530 (with numbers attached) plus shipping. Exchange rate was about the same as now.

 

I don't think PSA sold many sails that year.

 

They eventually dropped the price and since then seem to have kept it around 10% more than what an import would cost. I guess they've worked out that a 10% premium is what the market will accept to buy locally.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon, while a lot of people camplain about the cost of doing business in Australia, we still pay double price for software, music and some computer hardware to companies who do not manufacture anything in the country, do not pay any tax in the country and deal with their Australian customers through offshore online web sites. At least PSA emply locals to build stuff, pay Australian taxes, and can still sell at competitive prices.

 

So what ever happenned to the legal battle which I think was the purpose of this thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon, while a lot of people camplain about the cost of doing business in Australia, we still pay double price for software, music and some computer hardware to companies who do not manufacture anything in the country, do not pay any tax in the country and deal with their Australian customers through offshore online web sites. At least PSA emply locals to build stuff, pay Australian taxes, and can still sell at competitive prices.

 

So what ever happenned to the legal battle which I think was the purpose of this thread.

Phil

 

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly but we are saying exactly the same thing. We hear that there is a high cost of doing business in Oz and therefore people accept it through ignorance or attack companies for ripping people off when they aren't (or at least that is what my first 2 sentences are meant to say!) It is a complete scandal that certain products that are fulfilled electronically, such as music and software, are premium priced in Oz for no other reason than making more money. We hear so much about that sort of thing that many people think that any price that seems higher than in Europe or the USA is a rip off without understanding what the true costs of doing business are.As said (and almost back to the subject), I doubt the pricing is based on ripping off sailors and is more a refection on cost pressures of the local market. I would have been surprised if a Laser sail here in Oz wasn't more expensive than in Europe and the USA. We might have better weather and nicer places to sail compared with the UK, but we have to pay the price!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to read the above.

SimonN has provided a whole rationale as to why sails would be more expensive in Australia - though reading his version PSA are doing well because THE COST OF THE NEW SAIL IN AUSTRALIA IS THE SAME AS IN EUROPE.

Sails in New Zealand come via Australia - there are significant fleets of Laser sailors there that get hit by costs as a result of remoteness to the source. Freight is not as big a deal as it used to be, also, tariffs have come down a lot over the last few decades.

 

My feeling is that there are many hands in the pot (sailmaker, ILCA, lawyers for the sail IP, builders, dealers) and the Laser sailor pays a higher price than one would expect. There is also a question of visibility - ILCA members don't know how much the ILCA is getting for each sail, it is a significant revenue stream - no doubt we'll find out the revenues generated by the new sail via the end of the year report.

 

PhilS, we are all waiting for the courts to make announcements and/or release information - so unlikely revelations about the legal action aside - the new sail is the most significant thing that there is to talk about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

PhilS, we are all waiting for the courts to make announcements and/or release information - so unlikely revelations about the legal action aside - the new sail is the most significant thing that there is to talk about.

 

Which is why there's a separate thread: New Laser Sail. Any Information?

 

 

(Then I suppose we could talk about the new sail as it relates to the Kirby legal action, as some already have above.)

 

Things haven't really changed much with the new sail. One thing is that whoever owns the sail (the IP at least), has a little more say in the future of the class than they would have otherwise, and I guess that's the ILCA.

 

In the scenario that the ILCA is replaced by the ITCA (Torch association, currently on hold), we would necessarily see a new sail.

 

 

 

Gouv: Because the contract between PSA and Kirby is not available to us, we don't know whether the Australian boats are 'legal'. There may not even be a currently legal contract...

 

Sure we know that the PSA boats are legal. The body that say that they are is the ILCA. any ILCA official event that has had a PSA boat in it has deemed them as legal. The contract is only one piece in the equation. And this is a part of why some say (including me) that the ILCA has facilitated the current situation with LP.

 

Finally, Gouv makes a good point about the cost of sails in that there other classes that don't take a cut from the class association. The theory is that the Laser sails are all the same, and that because they are mass produced the sailors benefit from (theoretically) a lower cost of sail. If Laser sails were able to be developed, like other classes, then the cost would be even higher. That being said, the costs could be significantly lower, as demonstrated by the cost of 'practice sails'.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gouv: Because the contract between PSA and Kirby is not available to us, we don't know whether the Australian boats are 'legal'. There may not even be a currently legal contract...

 

Sure we know that the PSA boats are legal. The body that say that they are is the ILCA. any ILCA official event that has had a PSA boat in it has deemed them as legal. The contract is only one piece in the equation. And this is a part of why some say (including me) that the ILCA has facilitated the current situation with LP.

 

Finally, Gouv makes a good point about the cost of sails in that there other classes that don't take a cut from the class association. The theory is that the Laser sails are all the same, and that because they are mass produced the sailors benefit from (theoretically) a lower cost of sail. If Laser sails were able to be developed, like other classes, then the cost would be even higher. That being said, the costs could be significantly lower, as demonstrated by the cost of 'practice sails'.

 

 

Isn't it also true to say that "any ILCA official event that has had a LaserPerformance boat in it has deemed them as legal?"

 

Does that make all LP boats legal?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Gouv: Because the contract between PSA and Kirby is not available to us, we don't know whether the Australian boats are 'legal'. There may not even be a currently legal contract...

 

Sure we know that the PSA boats are legal. The body that say that they are is the ILCA. any ILCA official event that has had a PSA boat in it has deemed them as legal. The contract is only one piece in the equation. And this is a part of why some say (including me) that the ILCA has facilitated the current situation with LP.

 

Finally, Gouv makes a good point about the cost of sails in that there other classes that don't take a cut from the class association. The theory is that the Laser sails are all the same, and that because they are mass produced the sailors benefit from (theoretically) a lower cost of sail. If Laser sails were able to be developed, like other classes, then the cost would be even higher. That being said, the costs could be significantly lower, as demonstrated by the cost of 'practice sails'.

 

 

Isn't it also true to say that "any ILCA official event that has had a LaserPerformance boat in it has deemed them as legal?"

 

Does that make all LP boats legal?

 

Yes it is true Tillerman, which is part of a problem that so far does not have a solution.

 

The ILCA by effectively supporting LP boats undermined the contract system that Kirby set up in the name of Bruce Kirby Inc, without a replacement system. The issue is that PSA are happy with system, whereas LP are not. I hope the court gets to rule on this issue, am unsure (as everyone is) what the judge will rule with the motions for dismissals currently before the court.

 

Whatever the outcome of the motions to dismiss, Kirby (Kirby Inc) has a point by stating that he was being screwed out the rights he owns via the contracts. The documents which are now in the public domain IMJ support this view.

 

Bottom line, the organizers of official events, and the issuers of the plaques (and red buttons for sails) get to say what is official and what isn't. It's a more than a little ironic that what gave the ILCA this 'power' initially, was the contracts set up by Kirby.

 

If the ILCA acted in accordance with the contracts, LP may have been dismissed as a builder (as Kirby has attempted to do), and this matter may have avoided going to court.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kirby contends there are counterfeit boats built with his name placed upon them after the builder of those boats no longer had permission to use the Kirby name

 

Kirby contends the builder no longer had rights to build Laser sailboats at all after certain contract terms were no longer being met

 

I do not know whether Kirby's claims will be upheld and / or enforced by the court.

 

I "THINK" the PSA boats are not in any way being challenged as counterfeits by anyone

 

 

As stated above:

 

I do not wish to purchase a boat from LP until

It is guaranteed they have the right to build and sell the Kirby designed toys

 

I would like to see LP work to resolve the issues with Kirby

 

I would like the ILCA to refuse to accept LP boats for competition in ILCA events until LP resolves its issues with Kirby

 

Others disagree with my opinions

 

Opinions are like assholes. We each have one

 

I thought that it was the other way around. Assholes have opinions. Lots of them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost every price in AU is GST 10% included. The taxes in the US are on top of the sale price, unless you mail order.

 

We really don't mind being ass raped its an aquired taste. Its been going on since people moved down here.

 

The prices on some of the imported stuff is insane. It doesn't cost any more to ship shite from Asia to Australia vs US. But some how everything costs way more. Interesting thing is that the consumers in AU don't get a lower price when the exchange rate is the same, yet when it goes in the favor of the dollar we get wacked. The importers make all the money all the time.

 

Patented sails only happen in the Laser Class. When someone figures that one out let us know.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Patented sails only happen in the Laser Class. When someone figures that one out let us know.

It is pretty amazing what one can get issued out of USPTO, but that said, I am glad the class pursued and obtained it. Its potentially a small hook and leverage the class now has in dealing with builders and designers of 1960/70's technology that keep coming back for more. When dealing with pigs that fling poo its good to own a little umbrella.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How much is the ILCA adding to the price of each sail to recover their investment in this patent.

How soon will the patent costs be paid off?

Is the ILCA going to cease collecting funds the day that patent expense is paid off?

Exactly how are revenues from sails spent by the ILCA?

Exactly what is the mission of the ILCA?

Exactly where does the ILCA obtain each penny of its revenue?

EXACTLY HOW MUCH:

Is spent on administration?

Is spent on each employee?

Responsibility does each employee have?

Money or consideration is given directly to each Class employee by interested parties seeking influence control?

 

 

Please note:

I don't really give a shit either but it would be nice if you guys at least had a clue about the fact the ILCA has as little to do with the sailing game as it can while taking in as much money as it can.

It is a pretty good job for a bunch of people but ILCA has about as much to do with sailing as Joel Osteen does to get his contributors into heaven.

 

The PRIMARY reason I was run off in 2002 is I kept spending all the funds organizing and promoting the game.

Others wanted to CONTROL those funds so they could CONTROL that money and be in CONTROL.

 

So now the ILCA can afford lawyers to fight about who gets the money and patent attorneys to assure they get to CONTROL more money.

 

The Class could be spending its funds organizing events, inviting people out to play, and explaining how to join in.

 

Or CONTROLLING those funds

 

People love to sing the praises of Joel Osteen and send him money too.

 

I wish folks would actually LOOK at how their contributions are spent

Gouv,

 

I was trolling for other fish. Come on; stop biting.

 

But I'll send my money first to ILCA. The Joel. Then the other idiots LP, BK, PSA in that order.

 

:rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why send any $$ to those who are not serving you??

 

OK maybe I am being foolish

 

You certainly have tried to open my eyes

 

And

As I am opening them I see OPPORTUNITY!!!

 

Years ago Eric Faust set up an organization called The World Sailing Fund.

It was a nice name for an organization and it was going to be an entity that could accept donations.

He got a job running the J-24 Class and the World Sailing Fund hit the back burner.

Now he has a job as General Manager for the ILCA.

 

Thanks Wess!!

You are suggesting I start up the Sailing Prosperity association.

 

Brilliant

 

Look for upcoming announcements about where to send money to support Sailing Prosperity

 

Fred's gonna get a Lear jet!!!

 

Sorry Gouv. I like those who you hate.

 

I sail a Laser.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5IVuN1N6-Y

 

Good luck with the lear jet though. Maybe Joel can sell you his cheap!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't hate anybody. I admire their ability to extract sufficient funds to live a lifestyle while having no one require any particular job performance or question their self payments from the community funds .

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't hate anybody. I admire their ability to extract sufficient funds to live a lifestyle while having no one require any particular job performance or question their self payments from the community funds .

 

I'm a lover, not a fighter Gouv. Don't have the energy at my age for fighting all those wars you fight on so many fronts. In the bigger picture I can live with my decision to support the class association. Not much in life is perfect and there was/is a fight in the class I race in. So I picked sides and went with ILCA. In my opinion they have the whitest of all the hats or are the lesser of all the evils depending on if you are a glass half full or half empty kinda guy. I know I will not convince you anymore than you will not convince me but no matter... the wind will still blow and the water will still be there and I will go sailing again and not give this silly matter a moments thought. It will be over soon enough and life will go on much as it was before for those who sail in the class.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK. For the near future I guess I will give up on my attempts to reprogram this particular member of the cult.

 

Final thought for a while:

 

There are a myriad of other choices other than throwing your money and support to those who just do whatever they do with it.

Examples:

You could just keep your money

You could ask for a full accounting of past use before giving more

You could ask for a written plan for future use before giving any funds

You could use the money yourself to accomplish some of what those who want your money don't do anyway

 

I will stop there

 

Except to suggest:

If each of the sailors in your local fleet put the annual ILCA dues in a local fleet fund, would your Laser sailing experience be made better or worse by that change?

What if you had free beer, soft drinks and water on the RC boat for every race?

What if you had fleet t shirts?

What if you had occasional local newsletters?

You could do a lot of that if your fleet blew off the ILCA

So how does the ILCA serve your game such that you should tax your sailors out of their beer money?

 

Perhaps ILCA does do something

What is that something worth to your typical fleet member?

 

I would have no problem with my fleet collecting the Laser dues and Receiving an additional per member stipend each year from the ILCA if the fleet supplies contact info for those sailors.

 

ILCA is fully funded by new boat, sail, and advertising revenues.

 

Simply by purchasing a boat and occasionally replacing sails Laser sailors fund the ILCA. Giving that entity more money is absurd.

You are more like Joel than you realize. Perhaps you should have been a preacher. :D

 

But, no I am not going to convert to your religion.

 

We have a fantastic local fleet; thank you very much. I am as glad to write them a check and/or do RC as I am to write a check to ILCA. Great people, great club, great boat, fun times.

 

What you will never see or agree is that without ILCA, the idiots that are PSA, BK and LP would have done more damage to the Laser fleet. It was ILCA and only ILCA that took action and steps to ensure a structure that provided for the supply of boats and the ability of the class to race at all levels. It was only ILCA that looked out for the interests of class sailors. Not PSA, BK, or LP.

 

This may be more posts than you have ever left on the thread given they are quoted, LOL.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree. :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

What you will never see or agree is that without ILCA, the idiots that are PSA, BK and LP would have done more damage to the Laser fleet.

 

 

Well, we shall see. Its not over yet. If the contracts prevail then Pushchairs inc are still likely to be out of the Laser business, but after years of uncertainty, possibly many more years of uncertainty than had there been no fundamental rule change and the supply of placques had been pulled. RS have taken the opportunity caused by the confusion to enter the mainstream singlehander market they've steered clear of before, and the word on the street is that the Aero is spectacularly outselling the Laser in Europe.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What you will never see or agree is that without ILCA, the idiots that are PSA, BK and LP would have done more damage to the Laser fleet.

 

 

Well, we shall see. Its not over yet. If the contracts prevail then Pushchairs inc are still likely to be out of the Laser business, but after years of uncertainty, possibly many more years of uncertainty than had there been no fundamental rule change and the supply of placques had been pulled. RS have taken the opportunity caused by the confusion to enter the mainstream singlehander market they've steered clear of before, and the word on the street is that the Aero is spectacularly outselling the Laser in Europe.

 

I doubt that in any event as Pushchair's owns the Laser trademark.

 

The Aero is an interesting boat and seems to have some traction in Europe. A lighter up to date version of the Laser that sells for similar prices. Think they has about 20 of them at Cowes last year - but heck we get more Lasers than that out in our local fleet frostbiting! But the Aero numbers were up this year in Barcelona. Think they had close to 40 for the Cup event. However, Aero is a non event in the US so far. Single digits in few and far between regattas. If Laser went away and the Aero got traction and fleet numbers in the US I could be easily convinced though. But I really doubt Laser is going away any time soon in the US such that the Aero could get a meaningful foothold. There are just so many Lasers in so many places. Its hard to find clubs in the US that do dinghies that don't have a Laser fleet!

Link to post
Share on other sites


If each of the sailors in your local fleet put the annual ILCA dues in a local fleet fund, would your Laser sailing experience be made better or worse by that change?
What if you had free beer...........on the RC boat for every race?

 

 

.........then we'd sail like you! :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Patents are often a waste of time and money. Obviously, they can be expensive to get(especially in several continents). They are enforced by you and your lawyer not the government. Who are they trying to protect themselves from? Intensity and Isails market themselves as training sails. Laser already has a monopoly on certified Laser sails that no one else can breach. What benefit protection does a patent offer them(I mean us the Laser Association)? Its fucking stupid to patent a patch on a sail that is not enforcible in any way shape or form. Idiots run the Laser Association. There is now physical proof.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A patent for the Mark II sail has been issued D664.493.

 

It is relatively inexpensive to file an application for a patent. The expensive piece is defending the patent if someone sues you or suing someone else if you think they are infringing the patent.

At first glance I don't think this is a very strong patent. I would be surprised if they could claim that they invented bi-radial sails or could claim that luff tubes have not been used before.

 

Nevertheless, I suspect the objective is merely to give Intensity Sails and Rooster sails reason to pause. If Intensity brings out its own generic version of the Mark 2 sail, they are going to worry about a patent infringement suit. Intensity's IP lawyer is going to advise them that the patent doesn't have much merit but they are also going to point out that the parties involved with Laser have already shown themselves prone to litigation irrespective of the merits of their case. A good lawyer will always caution a client about provoking a litigation whore.

 

In layman's language, "The patent on the mark 2 Laser sail is weak but do you really want to fuck with those guys. They have already shown that they love spending needless money and time in the court room and you have better ways to spend your time"

 

 

Is it an abuse of our patent system? Yup. Is it cheap and effective? It often is.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

The design kind (v. utility kind) also has the nifty feature of 100% of profits as damages rather than a reasonable royalty. The design is supposed to be ornamental only, rather than functional. Only about a million bucks to prove it. Highly recommended.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The design kind (v. utility kind) also has the nifty feature of 100% of profits as damages rather than a reasonable royalty. The design is supposed to be ornamental only, rather than functional. Only about a million bucks to prove it. Highly recommended.

 

Don't forget the other cost: having to spend all that time in East Texas (where 25% to 50% of all patent cases are heard).

Link to post
Share on other sites

BK should have co-sponsored the ice skating rink and gone down and had some BBQ. The Samsung Torch rink has a nice ring to it. He might have won by now.

 

Gouv, you are really missing an opportunity :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just bought a Pearson 26.

Larger local fleet for weekend races

Costs about the same as a laser

Lasts lots longer

You can sleep on it

You can take friends for rides

 

And best of all??

 

No association whose sole purpose is to pay for itself

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

...and still we wait...

 

No. Its...

 

"... and still we sail..."

 

The sky never was and never will fall. Unless you are in BK's will or a stockholder in LP, PSA, etc... this just does not matter in any practical way any more for sailors in the class. The class's actions have ensured we could, can and will be to continue to sail and race our Lasers.

 

Let the fat cats fight. Go sailing!

 

Gotta try the new sail this weekend. And hopefully the new top section soon!

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the courts see it the way Wess sees it, and the contracts are found to be valid, I will enjoy the resulting application of the laws.

Ah Gouv, not going to go round and round. Does not matter which way the court rules. Lots of ways to get boats meeting same specifications of current Lasers and make them class legal. You can build and sell that boat today (in fact others do); you just can't call it a Laser. If class wished they have ways to make that boat a class legal boat today. Doubt it comes to that.

 

Y'all been telling me the Laser class sky if falling for years now... maybe even pushing a half decade of you folks crying wolf and whining endlessly

 

If the day comes the class dies because of this litigation and inability to get boats that meet all the same basic specifications today's do; I will eat crow.

 

Till then... preach on but don't expect me to stop sailing or believe.

 

Dude, you are easier to wind up that the other one. Go sail and have fun.

 

You remember sailing right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Y'all been telling me the Laser class sky if falling for years now... maybe even pushing a half decade of you folks crying wolf and whining endlessly

 

 

....errr,, other than the very top end,, fleet sizes have been falling for 3 decades now :mellow:

Link to post
Share on other sites

You missed my point Wess.

You wrote something like "the actions of the Class allowed LP to keep us supplied with boats from LP."

 

I absolutely do not disagree with you on that point

 

Kirby has accused the Class of doing EXACTLY that.

 

If Kirby's accusations and your conclusions are correct and the contracts ( as Kirby claims) prohibit such behavior I will enjoy seeing appropriate penalties applied on those who broke the contracts.

 

If there are no such contracts and Kirby has no standing with respect to who supplied or supplies Lasers for use in ILCA games or sale anywhere In the world????

Well then... The decision by the class officers to accept Lasers from builders who have no contract with Kirby won't matter

 

I don't believe any of this has any significant impact on my Wednesday night fleet or even the national and international laser events

 

Summary: if it is shown that people failed to honor legitimate contracts, I hope they are appropriately sanctioned.

If those sanctioned happen to be ILCA officers I will be pleased

That's all

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Y'all been telling me the Laser class sky if falling for years now... maybe even pushing a half decade of you folks crying wolf and whining endlessly

 

 

....errr,, other than the very top end,, fleet sizes have been falling for 3 decades now :mellow:

 

So has just about every fleet be it OD, PHRF, big boats or dinghies. Laser has hung on far better than many. Can't blame the decline of sailing on Kirby's lawsuit.

 

You missed my point Wess.

You wrote something like "the actions of the Class allowed LP to keep us supplied with boats from LP."

 

I absolutely do not disagree with you on that point

 

Kirby has accused the Class of doing EXACTLY that.

 

If Kirby's accusations and your conclusions are correct and the contracts ( as Kirby claims) prohibit such behavior I will enjoy seeing appropriate penalties applied on those who broke the contracts.

 

If there are no such contracts and Kirby has no standing with respect to who supplied or supplies Lasers for use in ILCA games or sale anywhere In the world????

Well then... The decision by the class officers to accept Lasers from builders who have no contract with Kirby won't matter

 

I don't believe any of this has any significant impact on my Wednesday night fleet or even the national and international laser events

 

Summary: if it is shown that people failed to honor legitimate contracts, I hope they are appropriately sanctioned.

If those sanctioned happen to be ILCA officers I will be pleased

That's all

We agree the bold part Gouv. As for any meaningful sanctions against ILCA - good luck with that. I think there is a better chance of BK and LP having a love child called a Torch. But I get that meaningful ILCA sanctions are your Christmas wish.

 

Mine is for 10-15 knots of breeze, a driving snow, air temps in the 20s, water in the 40s, and a drysuit that does not leak for the duration of our frostbite season. Getting too old and don't have many of these fun times left.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't stay up nights figuring out ways to help the ILCA officers get punished for their folly.

And. I doubt they ever will feel sanctions.

 

You are correct about one thing;

 

If it is found they have improperly conspired to deprive another man of man of his compensation described in very real contracts, and they are forced to pay personally for their illegal acts, I will be happy to see the application of the appropriate sanctions

 

Yes I am often happy when those who break the law are caught and appropriately sanctioned.

 

In the case of the ILCA it is personal. If some of those who conspired to deprive me of my contracted compensation in 2002 are caught up and punished in the court's resolution of the Kirby matter I will be ecstatic!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't stay up nights figuring out ways to help the ILCA officers get punished for their folly.

And. I doubt they ever will feel sanctions.

 

You are correct about one thing;

 

If it is found they have improperly conspired to deprive another man of man of his compensation described in very real contracts, and they are forced to pay personally for their illegal acts, I will be happy to see the application of the appropriate sanctions

 

Yes I am often happy when those who break the law are caught and appropriately sanctioned.

 

In the case of the ILCA it is personal. If some of those who conspired to deprive me of my contracted compensation in 2002 are caught up and punished in the court's resolution of the Kirby matter I will be ecstatic!!

I got nothing for that Gouv. Find peace. Go sailing. Should some breeze materialize I plan to do exactly that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Y'all been telling me the Laser class sky if falling for years now... maybe even pushing a half decade of you folks crying wolf and whining endlessly

 

 

....errr,, other than the very top end,, fleet sizes have been falling for 3 decades now :mellow:

 

So has just about every fleet be it OD, PHRF, big boats or dinghies. Laser has hung on far better than many. Can't blame the decline of sailing on Kirby's lawsuit.

 

 

.....Kiteboarding and sportboats,,,sailing is doing totally fine as a sport,, but yeh, it's nothin to do with Kirby

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wild speculation - could this be the reason the new ISAF CEO quit after less than 6 months in post? Maybe he saw how complicit ISAF were in the plaque debacle.

 

 

meh. I'd be betting the Laser debacle is a small fish in the ISAF barrel :mellow:

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Wild speculation - could this be the reason the new ISAF CEO quit after less than 6 months in post? Maybe he saw how complicit ISAF were in the plaque debacle.

 

 

meh. I'd be betting the Laser debacle is a small fish in the ISAF barrel :mellow:

 

 

Possibly, at the moment all that is happening is the class is damaging itself in the eyes of those who give a damn.

 

At least the finally got the new sail signed off, only took 4 years or so.....

 

Now the carbon top section that is ready for market, think they will agree on that soon?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Wild speculation - could this be the reason the new ISAF CEO quit after less than 6 months in post? Maybe he saw how complicit ISAF were in the plaque debacle.

 

 

meh. I'd be betting the Laser debacle is a small fish in the ISAF barrel :mellow:

 

 

Possibly, at the moment all that is happening is the class is damaging itself in the eyes of those who give a damn.

 

At least the finally got the new sail signed off, only took 4 years or so.....

 

Now the carbon top section that is ready for market, think they will agree on that soon?

 

How do you figure.

 

We got dozens and dozens of folks frostbiting Lasers. Can't remember the last time this topic came up (winter or summer) in the club level fleet. Even over beers after racing.

 

There are people who sail and people who talk about it on the internet. Not sure how much any of them sail - or sailed ever - in the Laser fleet but I suspect not many do. The talkers talk and type. The sailors are all still sailing and having fun.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Wild speculation - could this be the reason the new ISAF CEO quit after less than 6 months in post? Maybe he saw how complicit ISAF were in the plaque debacle.

 

 

meh. I'd be betting the Laser debacle is a small fish in the ISAF barrel :mellow:

 

 

Possibly, at the moment all that is happening is the class is damaging itself in the eyes of those who give a damn.

 

At least the finally got the new sail signed off, only took 4 years or so.....

 

Now the carbon top section that is ready for market, think they will agree on that soon?

 

How do you figure.

 

We got dozens and dozens of folks frostbiting Lasers. Can't remember the last time this topic came up (winter or summer) in the club level fleet. Even over beers after racing.

 

There are people who sail and people who talk about it on the internet. Not sure how much any of them sail - or sailed ever - in the Laser fleet but I suspect not many do. The talkers talk and type. The sailors are all still sailing and having fun.

 

 

Because in the UK the club level laser fleets are in decline. People have had enough of the Laser and are voting with their feet and their wallets. Some traditional classes such as the National Solo are picking up a lot of club and open circuit level sailors. Others are trying the new classes such as the D-Zero and RS Aero and are liking what they see.

 

For example my local club (which is a small club) used to get up to 20 Lasers out for a fleet race through the summer usually averaging out around 12-13. Now they are lucky if they get 2 or 3. Most of the class stalwarts have moved to other classes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In the U.S. We have a surge of graduated Opti sailors whose parents are used to spending $30,000 per year on the kid's sailing program.

The recent District 13 regatta had over 100 boats because the well funded kids are already in Florida for the Orsnge Bowl and possibly the Annual week of sitting on shore wishing there were some wind called the Olympic Classes Regatta.

Count me among those who sincerely hopes these kids will learn to love sailing and show up in local yacht clubs and be the next generation to replace all those over sixty folks who have been running the game for the last forty years.

 

 

I remain CONVINCED the market is wide open for a builder and sales force who would build an inexpensive durable racing toy ( like a Laser's developers tried to create) and who would focus on creating huge regattas, huge local events, and huge local fleets.

The Laser has been surviving on its leftover reputation and void of an alternative since the early eighties.

The fact is there are better and easier ways to make a return on the financial investment but sooner or later someone who has a few million dollars to throw at creating the next sailing boom will see it CAN be done without losing those millions.

In fact, I think the market in which that builder could make a little money is already there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Wild speculation - could this be the reason the new ISAF CEO quit after less than 6 months in post? Maybe he saw how complicit ISAF were in the plaque debacle.

 

 

meh. I'd be betting the Laser debacle is a small fish in the ISAF barrel :mellow:

 

 

Possibly, at the moment all that is happening is the class is damaging itself in the eyes of those who give a damn.

 

At least the finally got the new sail signed off, only took 4 years or so.....

 

Now the carbon top section that is ready for market, think they will agree on that soon?

 

How do you figure.

 

We got dozens and dozens of folks frostbiting Lasers. Can't remember the last time this topic came up (winter or summer) in the club level fleet. Even over beers after racing.

 

There are people who sail and people who talk about it on the internet. Not sure how much any of them sail - or sailed ever - in the Laser fleet but I suspect not many do. The talkers talk and type. The sailors are all still sailing and having fun.

 

 

Because in the UK the club level laser fleets are in decline. People have had enough of the Laser and are voting with their feet and their wallets. Some traditional classes such as the National Solo are picking up a lot of club and open circuit level sailors. Others are trying the new classes such as the D-Zero and RS Aero and are liking what they see.

 

For example my local club (which is a small club) used to get up to 20 Lasers out for a fleet race through the summer usually averaging out around 12-13. Now they are lucky if they get 2 or 3. Most of the class stalwarts have moved to other classes.

 

Yea, agree its fair to say there is greater traction by classes competing with Laser - such as Aero - in Europe than there is in US. Not sure why it is so but sort of doubt its the lawsuit. We have not seen that shift in US for whatever reason. I suspect most agree that Aero is a better boat and build at same price as the Laser, but a benefit of the Laser fleet is 1000s and 1000s of affordable boats such that you can go out and race competitively at the club level on just about any shoestring budget. The "generic" sails made that even easier.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I remain CONVINCED the market is wide open for a builder and sales force who would build an inexpensive durable racing toy ( like a Laser's developers tried to create) and who would focus on creating huge regattas, huge local events, and huge local fleets.

The Laser has been surviving on its leftover reputation and void of an alternative since the early eighties.

The fact is there are better and easier ways to make a return on the financial investment but sooner or later someone who has a few million dollars to throw at creating the next sailing boom will see it CAN be done without losing those millions.

In fact, I think the market in which that builder could make a little money is already there.

Agreed.

 

Looking at the annual production numbers, the new designs have a long way to go before they catch up to Kirby's sailboat, even in its diminished numbers.

 

Fleet numbers in decline mean an even greater number of second hand boats available - the cost of entry is very good with Kirby's sailboat that most other classes can't compete with - so for the main part, remains the biggest fleet of adult sailboats in the world.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Well said! It is going to be nearly impossible to beat the entry price point of a used Laser for OD racing.

 

IF, and it's a BIG IF, a second class such as the RS Aero can get enough traction for several years so that used boats will start to become available then perhaps something might start to replace the Laser. Are there even enough single handed dingy sailors out there to support two classes? Certainly the Laser is not going away anytime soon.

 

It still amazes me what the J/70 has done but it's a keel boat so in a large part different sailors and obviously different price point to get in the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Realistically??? No racing keel boat has sold in forever what the laser continues to sell annually every two years

 

But saturation??

One person in a million buys a new Laser in the USA every year.

There are 999,999 available customers per boat to start another fleet

 

But it is true... There won't be any used 20 year old boats for twenty years

 

Consider this

If the Oracle guys decided to make a singlehanded one design fleet happen and new boats cost them $5000 each, they could place 1000 boats a year in clubs for free with the money they currently spend

Or

Place 2000 boats at $2500 each

 

All it takes is somebody deciding he can do more for the sport or get more bang for his advertising buck or just better serve his life goals by causing a boom in small boat sailing

 

Out of the question??

Don't you suppose those guys have noticed all their crew came from lasers??

 

 

What if each America's cup program tossed ten million in the future of sailing fund??

What if the various sailboat companies added in?

What we need is a movement to have a new better more durable more available entry boat that also has the very most competitive world championship

 

Personally?? I think that is the job of the IYRU or whatever their name is this week

 

Organize it

Link to post
Share on other sites

IYRU, I mean ISAF, I mean World Sailing have stated:

"At the heart of the federation moving forward is a significant focus on change for the better. More transparency, better communication, stronger governance and greater accountability are the four main aims of the new leadership team and the rebrand to World Sailing represents their commitment to those aims."

Maybe the ILCA should pull an Intensity and clone this vision...

Link to post
Share on other sites

How many dollars does ISAF IYRU get for each sail button on Lasers?

How much for the number sticker on the inside back cockpit wall ?

 

Where do those funds go?

How much of IYRU 's budget is spent on its own structure as opposed to servicing the sailing game?

 

Transparency wants her answers

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of conspiracy theory fodder here for you, Gouv! Sail buttons and sticker revenue are well buried within terms such as "Other Revenue" or maybe even "Debtors". A big, juicy Members Fund that seems to be on the decline. Staff costs on the rise. A "Quasi-Subsidiary"... Mystery and intrigue abounds!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just my take but:

 

I think this thread is largely about who is in our pockets spending money from our sailing budgets.

Some want to remove Kirby's fingers

Some like to point out Kirby's hands are small and his grip feeble

AND

we should be slapping away the hands of each and every money grubbing parasite

 

To that end:

I have been campaigning for accountability from every single person and organization who wishes to stick fingers in our wallets.

Exactly where do these organizations get the money.

Exactly how much per transaction

Who approved the taxation and what is the automatic review process before Annual renewal of any tax on sailors??

Who does the voting?

 

Who spends the money?

 

Who approves that spending?

 

We can't get the lawsuit answers as we have no standing in the legal action.

 

We damn sure ought to have standing when asking where our organizational money goes

Link to post
Share on other sites

To really understand the accounts I need to know how every penny was brought in and where every penny went but most of all I need a full explanation of how each tax on the sailing community is justified, who decides whether to have that tax, who de ides whether to continue to have that tax, how the tax revenue is allocated, why each penny is spent, , authorized by whom, how that person gained the authority to spend community money .....

Tax: anytime the ISAF takes money from anyone to perform whatever services it does, I call that a tax on the sailing community.

Everything??? If Sperry has to pay ISAF to get its name on some buoys, sailors pay for that name with increased shoe prices.

Nobody gives ANY funding to ISAF except to promote sailing.

What exactly ISAF does with the sailing community's funds is OUR business.

 

Same goes for the ILCA.

Example: hiring somebody to do a job is always the easiest solution. You raise the tax on the community and hire somebody to do the work.

Many sailors do a lot of volunteering to make the sailing game happen

Many sailing community executives cease to do ANY volunteer work and justify paying themselves for 100% of their participation in the management process.

The typical sailing community volunteer pays for travel, lodging, and works for free.

The sailing community executives are placing themselves in better and better accommodations, using more expensive forms of transportation and ceasing to do the volunteer work which was part of their resume.

No one at the upper levels of the organizations is being held accountable by ANYONE but themselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Looks likely to be 2016 before we hear anything from the courts.

 

2016, an Olympic year. a good year to see the Kirby action and issues that brought it about resolved, in the courts or out.

I for one, am not holding my breath for complete resolution through the courts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no expectation of anything being settled by the broken US legal system in 2016. Reckon its going to drag on 2 or 3 more years at least.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people, even in Australia, don't seem to realise the increased costs of doing business here. And it is this ignorance that allows some companies to well over charge while others do the right thing by customers. I have no idea which PSA is falling into, but doing a straight price comparison with other countries never tells the correct story.

 

The biggest issues are caused by distance. First, we get screwed on the import side, every which way. Because of the length of time it takes to get goods, importers have to bring in larger amounts and hold larger stock levels than those close to where the goods are manufactured. Take Laser sails. LPE in the UK can pull down stock at a single days notice (assuming Hyde have stock). The lead time for PSA is at least 6 weeks, if customs are working well. In theory, LPE can pay for their sails up to 4 weeks after selling them, PSA have to pay before they receive them even if they have the same credit terms. The furthest distance that LPE in the UK would have to send a sail is considered a "local" deliver in Oz. More normally, the goods come into Sydney and need to be distributed 1000's of kms across the country. This effects the price of all sails - should the Laser sailor in, say, Darwin or Perth pay more for his sail than somebody in Sydney just because PSA decide to land their goods in Sydney? Distribution costs here in Oz are ridiculous compared with any other country I have ever done business in. And the comments above are just for starters because the overall cost of doing business here in Oz is significantly higher than in the UK.

 

I cannot say for sure, but I seriously doubt that PSA is ripping off their customers on the Laser sail. And for those who want to, you can always buy a sail from overseas and import it yourself.

Many good points about our Aussie economy.

 

PSA is an interesting company. They now own the Byte C2&C1 rights. The ByteC2 has not proved to be a popular boat in Au. It's main competition is Laser 4.7 Its hard to compete with the idea that a parent can buy a boat for an older junior or youth and then put a new rig on it and you then have the next boat(Full or Radial).

 

The ByteC2 is a fabulous boat. It is a foam cored well built 12' Laser hull with a proper traveler, aft led controls, and a great Bethwaite designed fully battened sail and super flexi carbon mast. It currently costs from the builder PSA $8990 AUD. The replacement sail costs $1200 including battens, bag(the sail is essentially the size of a 29er mainsail, which costs about the same)

 

The Laser 4.7(or Full or Radial)costs from the builder PSA $9990 AUD. The replacement sail is $770 plus $55 battens and a roll bag is $40. That's $865 total. The $990 for the new sail with battens and a bag is a good deal compared to the old.

 

To put this truly in perspective an Open Bic 4.5m sail costs $500 including everything(even a Ronstan double block for the downhaul!) They are beautiful sails made by North. These have all of the same shipping distribution costs in AU.

 

So why is the Byte C2, which is a more expensive beast to build, cost so much less than a Laser? It should cost $1000 more than a Laser so that's a $2000 markdown. Or is the price of our Lasers so over the top?

 

The killer is the running costs of campaigning a Laser are crazy high compared to these other boats. New uppers and sails if it blows 30 knots. I'm a wee bit tired of it. I had to buy a new Laser gooseneck(long story) which cost me $71 for a Laser legal one.

 

Unfortunately the Laser and Opti($600 sails) have become these super expensive shite boats compared to everything else on the market. All they have going for them is International numbers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

http://issuu.com/laserclass/docs/laserworld_dec_15

 

Highlights from Wavedancer on TLF:

Eric Faust is the new Exec Secr; Jeff Martin has retired (this completes the move to a USA based office)
Membership is relatively stable at 15,000; finances as well
Some rule changes are in the works
One relates to certain types of digital compasses; will need to be approved by the membership
Work continues on 'alternate material' top section

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't encourage the sky is falling crowd. I really don't want to hear about how my Laser racing tomorrow and Sunday will all soon be over with as imaginary Torches take over the world and the class is bankrupted.

 

Jeff is still on the World Council as Executive Secretary Emeritus. Faust assumed the Executive Secretary role some time ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just bought a Pearson 26.

Larger local fleet for weekend races

Costs about the same as a laser

Lasts lots longer

You can sleep on it

You can take friends for rides

 

And best of all??

 

No association whose sole purpose is to pay for itself

Couple thousand more things you forgot to mention that one can do on that Pearson...cannot do on wet, underbuilt, overpriced boardboat.

 

26 is awesome boat. Rock...and rocks.

 

About time I add 2-cents Gouv +1.

 

Performance Sailing and neonazi republicans, flotsam and jetsam in the wake of time...what happens when overreach happens...and years pass, among other things.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really am working on this Pearson 26 thing. It isn't about the specific boat

It is about the game and making it work at my local club

Or

Making the game available at my local club

 

On weekend afternoons and on less hot summer evenings people gather at the club down the street from my home and have sailboat races.

The whole club experience includes races, board meetings, dinners, drinking, storytelling, kid rearing, tinkering with boats, raft ups, joy rides, and even attending funerals

 

There is lots more as it is a community in and of itself.

 

When there are large numbers playing the racing game, all the other stuff seems to fall in place as well.

 

As a student of the psychology and sociology of the sailing community I have lots of my own theories about what helps and hinders the community and individual experiences.

At Austin Yacht Club I think the place does well when there are at least a few large fleets of keelboats.

It seems we need about 40 of a boat to get fifteen out for most events.

We have had 40 Southcoast 21 of the 162 world supply of those sailboats but they are finally so ancient they are beyond reasonable redemption.

There are 1800 Pearson 26 around the USA and they can sail in our PHRF C fleet with San Juan 7.7, Catalina 25, and a bunch of other floating RV toys.

I have found the old Pearson 26 to be relatively easy to make "ready to just go sailing."

It takes about $7000 to sufficiently refurbish most any Pearson 26 to be about as good as most of the current AYC toys and $13,000 is enough to have crispy sails, a great bottom and decent rigging.

 

My personal belief is it takes at least 25 boats to have decent racing. Decent means the odds are good most of the sailors will have another boat nearby throughout the race.

Looking for lanes and securing inside overlap at marks just barely begins happening in a 15 boat fleet.

I absolutely live for that crowded starting line, search for the best oath upwind, jockey for the inside, tweak the sails as we inch ahead of the other guys, dip the crossing competitor, ask the committee boat who crossed ahead, go to shore and tell how we saw it all while hearing about the kid's new business venture experience

 

I am reasonably convinced the major obstacle for joiningbygevgun is figuring out how to get yourself a proper toy

So.. I decided to go get a few boats that are perfect fir the AYC game and make them ready to go sailing.

Currently I have a shiny clean ready to sail old Pearson 26 parked on the corner in front of my shop and the head of the club sailing education programs has been bringing new sailors by to see what they could use.

We think we are going to facilitate some serious fun

Link to post
Share on other sites

A nice project with rewards in wings...I had pal with buck bought a new one back a few...he used it for sailing and as a motel. Rock of a boat...loved it.

 

Still, match races are fun, however...and small fleets can be awesome...fun. I play with trains currently, but nice weather might get me a hunting...MN is colder than a nun's butt in snowbank in winter, but spring comes. If I make it, outrigger gets wet, with Capt Bob tillering with can in hand.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two good looking P-26 near Minnetonka and some Capri 25s here. I sure would live to make some swapping happen

 

Note to others: Minnetonka has a Capri 25 minimum of about fifty boats who do what I want to create here

Link to post
Share on other sites