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Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch


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Wess....

Your life will be empty Easter Weekend unless you grab a bunch of fellow Marylanders and travel to Texas for the Easter Laser Regatta.

Maybe you can even meet the new International class secretary .... He has sailed the event about half the years

 

That's a long drive for a Laser racing that I can do right here! Thus the beauty of Laser (vs Aero) fleets. :D

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When are they going to make a decision? I need to know whether I should be training in my RS Aero or my Laser for Paris 2024.     

@WCB  i seriously doubt there is a soul contributing to this thread who honestly disagrees with my perceptions or the reasoning behind my effort to establish an AERO fleet in Texas and at my home

Yes. This looks incredibly similar  to the recent dispute that LP had with the Sunfish class.  When it came time for the Sunfish class to renew their license to use the various trademarks belongi

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The beauty of lasers also includes the fact you can visit any of 300 North American sailing venues and sail in a fleet in any given year.

That's what makes it so incredibly amazing the builder and class promotion is so utterly pathetic they only cause about 300 new boats a year in the entire USA snd Canada

 

Less than 30% of what we sold in the year after 9-11.

The reason I have ragged on them for thirteen years is they refuse to get the hell out of the way and let somebody who gives a damn take over.

 

Every year 1000 more people do not take up Laser sailing because the class management is not doing its job as well as it was done from 1999 to 2002.

 

You bet your sweet ass I rag on them. They need to step aside and drag young enthusiastic people into the class management.

 

45 years ago the ILCA hired a twenty something Jeff Martin to run the game

This year they hired an old fart in his fifties whose job history includes running the J-24 class office while membership dwindled and dwindled some more.

 

The best cure for enthusiasm is old age.

The ILCA is run by ancient people who are content with riding our dying game to its death

 

We need to make them pass the torch or, although it may not be the Aero, something promoted by enthusiastic people who refuse to accept failure will soon come along and kill Laser sailing

You get riled up way to easily Gouv so carefully consider this...

 

I think Laser sailing is as good now as it was in 99-02... maybe better. Honestly.

 

And this mess with PSA, BK, and LPE - to get back to the topic of this thread - was handled masterfully by the class association. I get that most all whiners posting here will disagree but virtually none of them are class members and most don't even race in a Laser. Had we followed the path laid out in their various BK loving lunatic rants the class would likely not have had access to Lasers the last few years.

 

Happy New Year!

 

I do hope you guys have a good Easter Laser regatta.

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There is one thing most of us neglect to consider, even, perhaps PS suits. The aging of Laser Sailors (or any forum) is eclipsed by rocketing population growth and, within, that cohort, large segments having no knowledge of past references of any sort. It is this life condition which drives businesses to ignore current and past fan preferences to "pack 'em in" as it were...sort of a prequel to "build it and they will come," mentality, although they are already present.

 

Why would someone interested in funds only, care about gamesmanship, rules, esthetics or anything, for that matter, besides the bottom line?

 

That motive is often present in licks here and adverts...

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There is one thing most of us neglect to consider, even, perhaps PS suits. The aging of Laser Sailors (or any forum) is eclipsed by rocketing population growth and, within, that cohort, large segments having no knowledge of past references of any sort. It is this life condition which drives businesses to ignore current and past fan preferences to "pack 'em in" as it were...sort of a prequel to "build it and they will come," mentality, although they are already present.

 

Why would someone interested in funds only, care about gamesmanship, rules, esthetics or anything, for that matter, besides the bottom line?

 

That motive is often present in licks here and adverts...

 

Do you mean that all these kids coming from population growth, having learned to sail Lasers in junior programs, will instead of buying a cheap used Laser and joining a large established fleet an existing infrastructure...

 

will instead want to organize a group buy, spend 2-3X as much, and do all the work to establish a new fleet, race in a smaller fleet, and pray they have critical mass so their boats have some resale value when they have to move for a new job because that's more fun? :unsure:

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Simply stated, numbers negate most other factors...and even diminishing returns, depending on factors in those constructs.

 

Let it go, no need to hijack...could be topic all by its little self.

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Simply stated, numbers negate most other factors...and even diminishing returns, depending on factors in those constructs.

 

Let it go, no need to hijack...could be topic all by its little self.

Wasn't trolling and agree numbers can negate all but I believe those numbers have $ signs.

 

Look at what it took for Open Bic to make a dent in the Opti space. Takes a heck of an investment to dislodge a competitor as well established and entrenched as Laser is.

 

OD ain't about the boat - its about the fleet. Takes money to move a fleet.

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Wess...we are resonant; precisely the point, the dollars that are spent by all these people...and we forget what it will cost to keep us in line...

Not following your point maybe. Agree that OD by its nature is resonant if you like that word. But its driven by the sailors as much or more than the builder/designer. As an OD sailor I want to go where the sailors are. I think even Gouv would agree that point. You lost me though with the costs to keep us in line?

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No problem...we are digressing...population dictates...more people, less care is taken to please, as items sell anyway, kind of thing.

All good. I agree the concept; just think it applies less here given class standards/construction manual set a level of quality to be able to sell. Price too has limits as used boats are readily available. Best...

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The beauty of lasers also includes the fact you can visit any of 300 North American sailing venues and sail in a fleet in any given year.

That's what makes it so incredibly amazing the builder and class promotion is so utterly pathetic they only cause about 300 new boats a year in the entire USA snd Canada

 

Less than 30% of what we sold in the year after 9-11.

The reason I have ragged on them for thirteen years is they refuse to get the hell out of the way and let somebody who gives a damn take over.

 

Every year 1000 more people do not take up Laser sailing because the class management is not doing its job as well as it was done from 1999 to 2002.

 

You bet your sweet ass I rag on them. They need to step aside and drag young enthusiastic people into the class management.

 

45 years ago the ILCA hired a twenty something Jeff Martin to run the game

This year they hired an old fart in his fifties whose job history includes running the J-24 class office while membership dwindled and dwindled some more.

 

The best cure for enthusiasm is old age.

The ILCA is run by ancient people who are content with riding our dying game to its death

 

We need to make them pass the torch or, although it may not be the Aero, something promoted by enthusiastic people who refuse to accept failure will soon come along and kill Laser sailing

 

My name is Andy Roy, and I'm the NA Laser Class President and a member of the World Council. I started sailing Lasers in about '74, and have raced in five Laser Worlds and seven Masters Worlds events. I have followed this thread from time to time over the past years and there has been some excellent discussion and debate, but unfortunately also some posts that are inflammatory and/or include unsubstantiated remarks. As a target of your criticism, "Gouv", I feel obligated to respond and hopefully I can provide a little more insight for you and others about the Class Association (albeit from my perspective). I attended my first World Council meeting this past October in Dallas, where I was able to better get to know each of the WC members, some of whom I've known for quite some time. I was also able to get a good understanding of the workings of the class and of the many responsibilities. Here are a few of my observations:

 

- In any group, team, committee, etc., it is more than likely at least one member will be a pain in the rear. The WC does not have one of these. I left the meeting impressed with every member of the WC, including the three builder representatives who, perhaps remarkably, seem to me to get along very well with each other. Throughout the 3 days of meetings there was an excellent spirit of co-operation and consensus. The meetings were professionally co-chaired by Tracy and Eric, with obvious advance preparation by both. (The only unusual thing about the meetings, however, was the need for the group to take an inordinate amount of bathroom breaks and also a mid-aft nap break, since just about all of us on the WC qualify as old farts.)

 

- The Class is in good financial shape and class membership levels have been fairly stable.

 

- The new sail introduction, although long overdue through no fault of the Class Assoc, is great news and more technical developments and progressive rule changes are in the works.

 

- The Class probably has the top person on the planet for the job serving as its Class President. I have the utmost respect for Tracy. He is an active racer, has true passion for the class, makes reasoned arguments and decisions, and class members are being extremely well served by TU.

 

- Similarly, we are being well served by Eric Faust as our Exec Sec. Eric has extensive class management experience and he will respond immediately to any question any class member wants to ask him. He's solid and I really can't say enough about him.

 

- The WC members voted unanimously to establish a new position to enable Jeff Martin to stay aboard on the WC. That's how valuable we think he is. The work he has done for the Class, starting I think in 1975, has been amazing and he continues to provide valuable contributions and work effectively with the not-so-easy-to-work-with ISAF/World Sailing organization on behalf of the class. Moreover, I doubt there are two better PROs anywhere than Jeff and Hugh Leicester (another WC member) to run our World event race courses. Jeff has been the PRO at (I think) every Laser Worlds since 1976!

 

- Thinking more about what Jeff and Eric have done and continue to do, there is really no other class that remotely compares to the Laser in terms of what has to be organized on day to day, year to year bases. Other classes typically have one annual world championships to plan. Laser has numerous World events held in far flung places around the globe: Open, Youth Radial, Masters, Women, etc. .... and all which require careful contract negotiations with the host site and also arrangement and transport of charter boats to/from each of these events. Moreover, over the past several years they've had to deal with the added complication and distraction of the Kirby-LP legal dispute.

 

- If anyone who follows this thread somehow believes the WC or any member of the WC has been favoring either party in the dispute, I have news for you. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the beginning it has been the WC's objective to remain absolutely neutral in the dispute between the commercial parties, and in the meantime continue to put forward its best efforts in keeping the business of the class operating well. I read a recent post here, hopefully it was a joke, about Eric making a pact with Rastegar F. from LP. If that person only knew how absurd that is.

 

- The Class continues to see strong participation at many events. Is there another sailboat class where I can step on a plane with one checked bag, arrive at a beautiful sailing venue, such as Hyeres France, cut away the plastic on my brand new charter boat that's identical to my boat at home, and proceed to race in tough competition on superbly run race courses against 86 others in my 10-year age group with a total of 499 competitors out on the water? What class is in second to the Laser in this regard, I ask?

 

- Are numbers growing like they were in the hey day of the class? Of course not. With demographics against us and when kids can go kite boarding or do other trendier activities, it's tougher to attract young sailors. But that by no means the situation is dismal! The 4.7 to Radial to Standard rig progression option for kids is fantastic. At the recent Orange Bowl youth regatta the Laser Radial fleet easily met the 100-boat entry limit cap. At the just completed Youth Worlds in Malaysia the Laser Radial Boys and Girls fleets saw, respectively, 66 and 54 entries (one entry per country). In comparison the largest fleet in any other class (420, 29er, RS-X, etc.) was 33 in the Boys 420.

 

- Could the Class be doing more to promote Laser racing? Perhaps, but remember that promotion costs money. For example, we'd love to update the NA Class website, but this will cost money that's difficult to allocate from the budget (budget figures available on the web site, and suggestions or recommendations are welcome).

 

- In addition to my comments above about the WC, on the NA Class Association front I also can't say enough about the job done by our Exec Secretary, Sherri Campbell. Along with Jerelyn Biehl they do a tremendous job on the behalf of class members. Again, I believe we are being well served.

 

So Gouv, if you think the World and/or NA Class Association is "not doing its job, and (we) need to step aside and drag young enthusiastic people into the class management", I would be pleased to "pass the torch", as you suggest. Hell, at 58 I'm definitely in the "ancient / old fart" category as you point out, so I'm way, way past what you would approve of as being suitable for the Class. So let me suggest that you or any other class member encourage anyone interested in serving on the NA Class Exec to contact Sherri. I'll resign and we'll put the youthful candidate(s) up for election. Problem solved and we can prevent Laser sailing "from being killed", as you opine.

 

(I'm also curious how you arrived at the declaration that 1000 people every year don't take up Laser sailing because of the "pathetic" job we in the class association are doing?)

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The beauty of lasers also includes the fact you can visit any of 300 North American sailing venues and sail in a fleet in any given year.

That's what makes it so incredibly amazing the builder and class promotion is so utterly pathetic they only cause about 300 new boats a year in the entire USA snd Canada

 

Less than 30% of what we sold in the year after 9-11.

The reason I have ragged on them for thirteen years is they refuse to get the hell out of the way and let somebody who gives a damn take over.

 

Every year 1000 more people do not take up Laser sailing because the class management is not doing its job as well as it was done from 1999 to 2002.

 

You bet your sweet ass I rag on them. They need to step aside and drag young enthusiastic people into the class management.

 

45 years ago the ILCA hired a twenty something Jeff Martin to run the game

This year they hired an old fart in his fifties whose job history includes running the J-24 class office while membership dwindled and dwindled some more.

 

The best cure for enthusiasm is old age.

The ILCA is run by ancient people who are content with riding our dying game to its death

 

We need to make them pass the torch or, although it may not be the Aero, something promoted by enthusiastic people who refuse to accept failure will soon come along and kill Laser sailing

My name is Andy Roy, and I'm the NA Laser Class President and a member of the World Council. I started sailing Lasers in about '74, and have raced in five Laser Worlds and seven Masters Worlds events. I have followed this thread from time to time over the past years and there has been some excellent discussion and debate, but unfortunately also some posts that are inflammatory and/or include unsubstantiated remarks. As a target of your criticism, "Gouv", I feel obligated to respond and hopefully I can provide a little more insight for you and others about the Class Association (albeit from my perspective). I attended my first World Council meeting this past October in Dallas, where I was able to better get to know each of the WC members, some of whom I've known for quite some time. I was also able to get a good understanding of the workings of the class and of the many responsibilities. Here are a few of my observations:

 

- In any group, team, committee, etc., it is more than likely at least one member will be a pain in the rear. The WC does not have one of these. I left the meeting impressed with every member of the WC, including the three builder representatives who, perhaps remarkably, seem to me to get along very well with each other. Throughout the 3 days of meetings there was an excellent spirit of co-operation and consensus. The meetings were professionally co-chaired by Tracy and Eric, with obvious advance preparation by both. (The only unusual thing about the meetings, however, was the need for the group to take an inordinate amount of bathroom breaks and also a mid-aft nap break, since just about all of us on the WC qualify as old farts.)

 

- The Class is in good financial shape and class membership levels have been fairly stable.

 

- The new sail introduction, although long overdue through no fault of the Class Assoc, is great news and more technical developments and progressive rule changes are in the works.

 

- The Class probably has the top person on the planet for the job serving as its Class President. I have the utmost respect for Tracy. He is an active racer, has true passion for the class, makes reasoned arguments and decisions, and class members are being extremely well served by TU.

 

- Similarly, we are being well served by Eric Faust as our Exec Sec. Eric has extensive class management experience and he will respond immediately to any question any class member wants to ask him. He's solid and I really can't say enough about him.

 

- The WC members voted unanimously to establish a new position to enable Jeff Martin to stay aboard on the WC. That's how valuable we think he is. The work he has done for the Class, starting I think in 1975, has been amazing and he continues to provide valuable contributions and work effectively with the not-so-easy-to-work-with ISAF/World Sailing organization on behalf of the class. Moreover, I doubt there are two better PROs anywhere than Jeff and Hugh Leicester (another WC member) to run our World event race courses. Jeff has been the PRO at (I think) every Laser Worlds since 1976!

 

- Thinking more about what Jeff and Eric have done and continue to do, there is really no other class that remotely compares to the Laser in terms of what has to be organized on day to day, year to year bases. Other classes typically have one annual world championships to plan. Laser has numerous World events held in far flung places around the globe: Open, Youth Radial, Masters, Women, etc. .... and all which require careful contract negotiations with the host site and also arrangement and transport of charter boats to/from each of these events. Moreover, over the past several years they've had to deal with the added complication and distraction of the Kirby-LP legal dispute.

 

- If anyone who follows this thread somehow believes the WC or any member of the WC has been favoring either party in the dispute, I have news for you. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the beginning it has been the WC's objective to remain absolutely neutral in the dispute between the commercial parties, and in the meantime continue to put forward its best efforts in keeping the business of the class operating well. I read a recent post here, hopefully it was a joke, about Eric making a pact with Rastegar F. from LP. If that person only knew how absurd that is.

 

- The Class continues to see strong participation at many events. Is there another sailboat class where I can step on a plane with one checked bag, arrive at a beautiful sailing venue, such as Hyeres France, cut away the plastic on my brand new charter boat that's identical to my boat at home, and proceed to race in tough competition on superbly run race courses against 86 others in my 10-year age group with a total of 499 competitors out on the water? What class is in second to the Laser in this regard, I ask?

 

- Are numbers growing like they were in the hey day of the class? Of course not. With demographics against us and when kids can go kite boarding or do other trendier activities, it's tougher to attract young sailors. But that by no means the situation is dismal! The 4.7 to Radial to Standard rig progression option for kids is fantastic. At the recent Orange Bowl youth regatta the Laser Radial fleet easily met the 100-boat entry limit cap. At the just completed Youth Worlds in Malaysia the Laser Radial Boys and Girls fleets saw, respectively, 66 and 54 entries (one entry per country). In comparison the largest fleet in any other class (420, 29er, RS-X, etc.) was 33 in the Boys 420.

 

- Could the Class be doing more to promote Laser racing? Perhaps, but remember that promotion costs money. For example, we'd love to update the NA Class website, but this will cost money that's difficult to allocate from the budget (budget figures available on the web site, and suggestions or recommendations are welcome).

 

- In addition to my comments above about the WC, on the NA Class Association front I also can't say enough about the job done by our Exec Secretary, Sherri Campbell. Along with Jerelyn Biehl they do a tremendous job on the behalf of class members. Again, I believe we are being well served.

 

So Gouv, if you think the World and/or NA Class Association is "not doing its job, and (we) need to step aside and drag young enthusiastic people into the class management", I would be pleased to "pass the torch", as you suggest. Hell, at 58 I'm definitely in the "ancient / old fart" category as you point out, so I'm way, way past what you would approve of as being suitable for the Class. So let me suggest that you or any other class member encourage anyone interested in serving on the NA Class Exec to contact Sherri. I'll resign and we'll put the youthful candidate(s) up for election. Problem solved and we can prevent Laser sailing "from being killed", as you opine.

 

(I'm also curious how you arrived at the declaration that 1000 people every year don't take up Laser sailing because of the "pathetic" job we in the class association are doing?)

 

 

Thank you Andy for taking the time to write on this thread.

 

There are several issues and several questions that the ILCA elected to remain silent on prior to the Kirby action. These actions have resulted some ILCA members choosing not to renew their membership, and a number who intended to join/rejoin the ILCA, not. Now there is legal action, there is a legitimate reason to remain silent on matters relating to the case. As these are central to how the ILCA has performed poorly, and central to Kirby's legal action, it's unlikely that you are able to address the issues by answering the questions. These include:

  • Questions about the validity of the vote for the fundamental rule change, specifically misinformation about contracts being historical, calls made by the UKLA to delay voting, and media reports on the eve of the vote stating that the vote is no longer needed. (these have been questioned since 2011).
  • Minor questions relating to the establishing whether or not votes cast were in fact by members as claimed.
  • A commitment to publish properly written ILCA Exec meeting and World Council meeting minutes for members to view. (I can verify this through active members I know).
  • A commitment for the full personal and personal financial disclosure of Laser officers and staff of their past and current relationships with: Laser builders, Laser trademark owners, the Laser designer and their owners and representatives. Any relationship with any supplier of Laser parts. This should be made available to members.

These are in no way intended to be accusatory, but steps that help lead to an ILCA that I wish to actively support.

 

Also central is the fact that in spite of Jeff Martin being a signatory to the IYRU Agreement on behalf of the ILCA, statements were made as if the agreement was never existed.

 

In any group, team, committee, etc., it is more than likely at least one member will be a pain in the rear. The WC does not have one of these. I left the meeting impressed with every member of the WC, including the three builder representatives who, perhaps remarkably, seem to me to get along very well with each other. Throughout the 3 days of meetings there was an excellent spirit of co-operation and consensus.

I am genuinely surprised to hear that Bill Crane and Chris Caldecoat are getting on very well with each other. Remember that Crane in affidavits alleged a conspiracy (his word) by PSA / Kirby to take over the world production of Lasers.

 

How is the sponsorship situation with Bill Crane and the ILCA-NA? Over the last few years there have been many mentions of Mr Crane not responding to requests relating to sponsorship with the ILCA-NA. That does not seem indicative of a good relationship.

 

While 'Gouv' at times make comments 'out there', I believe that he's usually more right that not. When talking about membership, Gouv usually talks about ILCA-NA membership numbers which went up while Fred Schroth was the Secretary, then declined after he was replaced. It has recovered, but not to the level it was when Fred Schroth was ILCA-NA secretary. The global membership has risen yet again (very slightly) to a new high.

 

Perhaps the point he make on age can be viewed a different way - the demographics of the World Council does not reflect the demographics of the ILCA membership (age and gender). Is there anyone on the World Council under the age of 50? As for female representation, there is some way to go before the World Council can lay claim to being representative of women's sailing.

 

My hope is that you continue to contribute to this thread. What we have in common is that we care about the boat that Kirby designed.

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Thank you Andy for taking the time to write on this thread.

 

There are several issues and several questions that the ILCA elected to remain silent on prior to the Kirby action. These actions have resulted some ILCA members choosing not to renew their membership, and a number who intended to join/rejoin the ILCA, not. Now there is legal action, there is a legitimate reason to remain silent on matters relating to the case. As these are central to how the ILCA has performed poorly, and central to Kirby's legal action, it's unlikely that you are able to address the issues by answering the questions. These include:

  • Questions about the validity of the vote for the fundamental rule change, specifically misinformation about contracts being historical, calls made by the UKLA to delay voting, and media reports on the eve of the vote stating that the vote is no longer needed. (these have been questioned since 2011).
  • Minor questions relating to the establishing whether or not votes cast were in fact by members as claimed.
  • A commitment to publish properly written ILCA Exec meeting and World Council meeting minutes for members to view. (I can verify this through active members I know).
  • A commitment for the full personal and personal financial disclosure of Laser officers and staff of their past and current relationships with: Laser builders, Laser trademark owners, the Laser designer and their owners and representatives. Any relationship with any supplier of Laser parts. This should be made available to members.

These are in no way intended to be accusatory, but steps that help lead to an ILCA that I wish to actively support.

 

Also central is the fact that in spite of Jeff Martin being a signatory to the IYRU Agreement on behalf of the ILCA, statements were made as if the agreement was never existed.

 

In any group, team, committee, etc., it is more than likely at least one member will be a pain in the rear. The WC does not have one of these. I left the meeting impressed with every member of the WC, including the three builder representatives who, perhaps remarkably, seem to me to get along very well with each other. Throughout the 3 days of meetings there was an excellent spirit of co-operation and consensus.

I am genuinely surprised to hear that Bill Crane and Chris Caldecoat are getting on very well with each other. Remember that Crane in affidavits alleged a conspiracy (his word) by PSA / Kirby to take over the world production of Lasers.

 

How is the sponsorship situation with Bill Crane and the ILCA-NA? Over the last few years there have been many mentions of Mr Crane not responding to requests relating to sponsorship with the ILCA-NA. That does not seem indicative of a good relationship.

 

While 'Gouv' at times make comments 'out there', I believe that he's usually more right that not. When talking about membership, Gouv usually talks about ILCA-NA membership numbers which went up while Fred Schroth was the Secretary, then declined after he was replaced. It has recovered, but not to the level it was when Fred Schroth was ILCA-NA secretary. The global membership has risen yet again (very slightly) to a new high.

 

Perhaps the point he make on age can be viewed a different way - the demographics of the World Council does not reflect the demographics of the ILCA membership (age and gender). Is there anyone on the World Council under the age of 50? As for female representation, there is some way to go before the World Council can lay claim to being representative of women's sailing.

 

My hope is that you continue to contribute to this thread. What we have in common is that we care about the boat that Kirby designed.

 

 

Mr. Gantt, I'll be glad to respond on a couple of your points:

 

Yes, I of course realize there are some people who declined to renew their membership over the dispute, and this is unfortunate. I have spoken to several of them over the past few years and I believe I convinced at least a few to rejoin based on what I felt were their misconceptions of the situation. But I want to avoid debate on this issue since, as you point out, Kirby named ILCA in his lawsuit and all of us on the WC were advised by the ILCA's outside legal not to comment on the case.

 

As for questions about ILCA members and their relationships with builders, etc., I can only say that it is my firm belief that all current members of the ILCA have the utmost integrity and honesty.

 

Regarding Bill Crane, I like him. He gets it. I'll only remind you of the obvious: it's not his company. I'd be willing to bet that he'd love to go back to sponsoring the ILCA, but it's not his call.

 

Regarding the makeup of the WC, hey, I'm all for seeing younger people and females become our class reps and sit on the ILCA. Again, I'd be happy to be put out to pasture and make way for a younger, bright (brighter? LOL) and engaged competitive Laser sailor, male or female, who expresses sincere interest in joining the NA Exec. It's quite simple: all someone has to do is contact Sherri and put their name up for election.

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Andy,

You are one of those guys who raced at the highest level and years later came back to support and care for the game that gave you so many personal rewards.

I appreciate that.

You also have been around long enough to have seen rises and falls in participation in every aspect and level of the game.

When I rag on the old guys and suggest they replace themselves ASAP I mean it and continue to promote it for a number of reasons

1. Most of our management sailors at all levels at all clubs are people who started managing in the seventies and eighties. Until recently, It was guys from the sixties as well but those guys have been doing a lot of dying.

I am convinced the very best managers are those who begin while they have sufficient enthusiasm to work through their ignorance

2. If we don't start training replacements and get them into the habit of long term management, the game will die behind us.

I am guilty. I have hosted my Easter regatta mostly alone and with help only on the regatta weekend itself for 32 years. I started as a 30 year old. We really NEED a thirty year old with my 30 year old enthusiasm to come help out and take over. I should do that soon because if he or she faiks, I can pick up the pieces snd find a second, third, fourth and fifth replacement until one sticks with it

 

>>>> I don't want you to step aside. I want you to go grab some kid and push him or her into your job and hold the door shut until the banging on it stops and the Stockholm Syndrome in the form of loving the job sets in.

You can afford to be a little less selective each year you wait

3. The game mushroomed, when as young sailors, we took all our friends sailing on the new affordable fiberglass toys. We need young guys doing that dragging. We need affordable toys.

We prosperous old guys have let the toys creep up in price. We prosperous old guys have let our comfort be bought at the expense of the least expensive path to the water.

4. Sherri is one of the sweetest ladies on the planet. She does professional work for the class at a bargain price.

Allan Broadribb was too damned old to do the job but his fabulous sense of humor extended his functionality.

I was too damned old but my fanaticism extended my functionality. Sherri is a Mom. A damned fine Mom. We need a ball of fire who needs a guy like you to a occasionally sit down with the kid and remind that kid the paperwork has to be done too.

We need somebody who posts a dozen times a day in forums like this and spends hours on the phone with last sumner's fleet captains, regatta chairs, regular regatta attendees, sponsors, dealers, and whoever the hell will listen to the endless enthusiasm gushing forth.

I tried to phone or visit every single fleet captain and regatta chair at least once because I thought it HAD to be done.

I still do.

 

We need not just a cheerleader but a relentless one who relates to the sailors.

5. You have a huge list of lifelong accomplishments. I want the people who are dedicated to being known for out doing you

 

 

It had been 14 years since Tim Landt published his pack of lies about me and the class finances. Eric Faust was too chickenshit to stand up and tell everyone he shared my office and knew the lies to be utter and complete bullshit. His excuse was something about being taken down with me in an unstoppable flood. The fact is he didn't wish to risk burning the bridges to someday having a full time paid job in sailing management.

The organization Allan handed to me and upon which I spent about $100,000 building was simply taken apart and killed by those who came in behind me.

They wanted to be in charge but NOBODY showed any interest in doing the work to actually replace me.

No one ever did.

Nobody goes to 35 regattas a year, posts all over the Internet, leaves newsletters in yacht clubs and dealerships, brings a soccer ball and football for windless days .... Or when a sewage spill postpones midwinter.

I had set up the class with $30,000 in assets only three years after being handed $12,000 and $19,000 in obligations.

I had 3106 paid members and CORK with its annual membership boost was only days away.

Everything I busted my ass and spent all my money building was wasted and has never been rebuilt.

Vanguard and the enthusiastic NA Class sold over 1100 Lasers in 2002 and for the first time in twenty years individual small sailboat sales actually increased in North America. Strange how that boomlet coincided with yours truly pushing Lasers.

 

The response from the Laser Class?

Listen to that lying sack of shit Landt. Don't even take the time to PEEK at the annual reports or question where the fuck that lying fukwit got his bullshit

No!

The reaction was, "oh boy!! We can be in charge !!!"

 

 

 

 

Then

"Oops! How do we do this? Where did all the members go? Why don't we have any money?"

 

 

Has there ever been any effort to apologize for fucking me over every way a man can be raped by those he thought were his friends??

 

Hell no!!

 

And posts like this are pretty much all I still do about it.

 

I will do my damdest to host another fabulous Laser regatta Easter Weekend.

In the years when I had full on class support we kept growing a little bit every year and had multiple years over seventy boats.

You asked about my 1000 missing sailors??

About fifty a year haven't had the chance to sail at the Easter regatta because we can't seem to put together the crowd like we used to

I feel hindered rather than helped

 

I do not believe the class is being used as the TOOL I think it should be for making the game happen

I also don't have another $100,000 to come fix it

That frustrates me because I can't afford to say, "Get out of my way and I will show you how it's done."

I already did. 35 consecutive months of membership growth

14 years later NOBODY has tried to study what I did in an effort to know everything I did and add more great ideas and eclipse my records

The class has had only one absolute rule of management, "Do not do anything that might give that guy the idea we know he cares, suggest to the world the idea we appreciate his efforts, or ever did a damned thing right!"

 

At least that's how I see it

And many of my friends tell me I am way less pissed than they would be.

 

 

Ok

I can stop now

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It's quite simple: all someone has to do is contact Sherri and put their name up for election.

Doesn't happen though, does it? Especially these days. Its a problem right across sailing I think, that in general the admin has been done by effectively the same generation for the last thirty years. It seems clear that we can't wait for people to sign up to replace our generation, we've got to somehow go out and get them.
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Note to those who keep reminding me to chill:

(Wess, Grinder, others who know who they are)

You are correct. Sorry!! Thanks for caring!

 

Please come sail at Easter

Gouv,

 

My reasons for not coming have nothing to do with you. My wife and I have a kid at USNA and sponsor many others so have a fair number of commitments here at home (where I can also sail). I do wish you (and the Easter regatta) well. Love your passion even if I disagree some actions. We wants similar things; just have different ways of getting there. Be well and happy new year.

 

Wess

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It's quite simple: all someone has to do is contact Sherri and put their name up for election.

Doesn't happen though, does it? Especially these days. Its a problem right across sailing I think, that in general the admin has been done by effectively the same generation for the last thirty years. It seems clear that we can't wait for people to sign up to replace our generation, we've got to somehow go out and get them.

 

Wow the thread got somewhat rational and fact based. Seems like 2016 really is a new year.

 

I agree it does not happen. Having done my share of class organization and event planning (not in Laser) I suspect social media and threads like this are part of the reason.

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For some reason we are the generation who have refused to pass responsibility on to the kids.

I don't believe for a second it is the other way around.

Neither, I think. We're the generation who don't know how to pass responsibility, and we've raised a generation who don't know how to take it. I think by and large people need to be invited these days, can't wait for them to volunteer. Interestingly I've noticed it of myself of recent years, although part of that is due to a lot of scar tissue between shoulder blades.
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Why do you folks keep saying kids will not step up? Is this just old fart complaining about the next generation as they have for every generation since the dawn of time? Maybe its where I live and because we are so deeply involved with institutions like USNA but I see many, many great kids stepping up to do amazing things all the time... and I don't just mean service to country. I mean service to community. They seem very willing to get involved with things that matter to them, when they believe they can make a difference.

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When the same group of people have been in charge of the class for decades, it's very unlikely that anyone will step forward to try to take over.

 

Term limits is the solution to that problem.

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I think there's actually a recent occurrence that illustrates the type of status quo thinking that Gouvernail is railing against. The class has just recently completed a long process to design and approve a new sail design due to complaints about the cost durability of the original sail design. I don't know all of the details, but the effort engaged the approved sail makers to spend quite a bit of effort and thus expense on designing the new sail. That investment reinforces the class' obligation to the class approved sailmakers, which maintains the status quo. The market, on the other hand has solved the problem in a much more cost effective way. A $600 sail that only lasts a few regattas is a hard pill to swallow. Some enterprising individuals out there realized that they could make identical sails and sell them at 25% of the cost. Those sails in some cases were also more durable since they used slightly heavier sailcloth. The class could have have changed the rules to allow those sailmakers to pay a royalty and make class legal sails. Say, $50 per sail. It creates an additional revenue stream for the class and reduces the cost burden in the sailors. The sailmakers previously granted a monopoly would either have to adjust and stop making obscene margins off of your class members or lose 100% of the business. With thousands of boats out there you have a ton of leverage that you aren't using because you are so dedicated to the traditional relationships that tell you you have to grant these monopolies so that you can maintain a supply. The class already has a market, you no longer need to create one. As long as the market exist, suppliers will come forward to supply the market. It's obviously strong enough of a market to support the traditional suppliers as well as a thriving grey market.

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I think there's actually a recent occurrence that illustrates the type of status quo thinking that Gouvernail is railing against. The class has just recently completed a long process to design and approve a new sail design due to complaints about the cost durability of the original sail design. I don't know all of the details, but the effort engaged the approved sail makers to spend quite a bit of effort and thus expense on designing the new sail. That investment reinforces the class' obligation to the class approved sailmakers, which maintains the status quo. The market, on the other hand has solved the problem in a much more cost effective way. A $600 sail that only lasts a few regattas is a hard pill to swallow. Some enterprising individuals out there realized that they could make identical sails and sell them at 25% of the cost. Those sails in some cases were also more durable since they used slightly heavier sailcloth. The class could have have changed the rules to allow those sailmakers to pay a royalty and make class legal sails. Say, $50 per sail. It creates an additional revenue stream for the class and reduces the cost burden in the sailors. The sailmakers previously granted a monopoly would either have to adjust and stop making obscene margins off of your class members or lose 100% of the business. With thousands of boats out there you have a ton of leverage that you aren't using because you are so dedicated to the traditional relationships that tell you you have to grant these monopolies so that you can maintain a supply. The class already has a market, you no longer need to create one. As long as the market exist, suppliers will come forward to supply the market. It's obviously strong enough of a market to support the traditional suppliers as well as a thriving grey market.

 

On the surface, that is an outstanding idea.

 

It is however a step away from SMOD concept.

 

The sail is a fascinating part to the legal landscape that the class finds itself in. I am fairly sure that the owner of the new sail design is the ILCA, whereas the main parties have (had) a contract that recognises Kirby Inc as the owner of the hull.

 

Whether or not these 'practice' sails have some different performance characteristics - real or imagined - they will be found. In the mean-time, for many fleets they have lowered the cost of sailing 'Lasers' at the many clubs that allow their use. My personal preference is to use the genuine sails, for me, the three practice sails that I have tried all have a different feel to them.

 

I believe the new sail design is a step in the right direction. For me, personally, I would not have minded if it was a faster sail than the old one, which would have 'forced' many more Laser sailors to buy one. Let's face it, the older design lost it's shape after about 50 days sailing - so it's no real big deal. With the higher volume of sails, the ILCA and builders could have achieved a lower cost, and possibly recovered the cost of the patent application.

 

I am given to understand that the new sail has an additional levy imposed on it, one that is meant to recover the cost of a patent application. What the makers of the new sail have achieved is a similar price to the old sail, with greater durability. Every Laser sailer I have met wanted the better at a lesser cost, and I believe that was achievable - it's just that there was no desire for that. I see that the revenue from sail buttons went from US$74,838 in 2013 to US$107,607 in 2014.

 

An openly managed owners association would provide minutes of meetings that outlined the cost structures, the number of sails sold and the cost of the patent application being recovered. This is so the membership can be confident they are doing a good job and working in the interests of the ILCA membership.

 

That is not the case with the ILCA.

 

Aside from the total revenue gained from the sale of sail buttons in 2014 and prior, members have no understanding of why the sails are so expensive. The ILCA World Council in this regard are not serving their membership well.

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I think there's actually a recent occurrence that illustrates the type of status quo thinking that Gouvernail is railing against. The class has just recently completed a long process to design and approve a new sail design due to complaints about the cost durability of the original sail design. I don't know all of the details, but the effort engaged the approved sail makers to spend quite a bit of effort and thus expense on designing the new sail. That investment reinforces the class' obligation to the class approved sailmakers, which maintains the status quo. The market, on the other hand has solved the problem in a much more cost effective way. A $600 sail that only lasts a few regattas is a hard pill to swallow. Some enterprising individuals out there realized that they could make identical sails and sell them at 25% of the cost. Those sails in some cases were also more durable since they used slightly heavier sailcloth. The class could have have changed the rules to allow those sailmakers to pay a royalty and make class legal sails. Say, $50 per sail. It creates an additional revenue stream for the class and reduces the cost burden in the sailors. The sailmakers previously granted a monopoly would either have to adjust and stop making obscene margins off of your class members or lose 100% of the business. With thousands of boats out there you have a ton of leverage that you aren't using because you are so dedicated to the traditional relationships that tell you you have to grant these monopolies so that you can maintain a supply. The class already has a market, you no longer need to create one. As long as the market exist, suppliers will come forward to supply the market. It's obviously strong enough of a market to support the traditional suppliers as well as a thriving grey market.

 

The continuing widespread success of Laser sailing at the grassroots level owes a lot to the availability of these "practice" sails. Pretty much every local fleet around here allows them now.

 

I met someone the other day who told me that one of the main reasons he had bought a Laser was because of the widespread availability of inexpensive "not class legal" parts. Not just sails. Foils. Spars. Etc. Etc.

 

Whether or not our current class officials want to embrace, ignore or fight this trend, I guess they are constrained by the current class constitution which gives the Laser builders veto power over any class rule changes such as legalizing these cheaper sails and parts.

 

The truth is that most of the boats racing in all these thriving fleets all over the world are not, strictly speaking, Lasers at all any more. They are "boats that used to be Lasers before their owners bought a sail and maybe a few other parts that don't comply with Laser class rules."

 

Is it a problem? Maybe not. We keep the game cheap and more people can play.

 

Maybe it's even a selling point for the class?

 

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I think there's actually a recent occurrence that illustrates the type of status quo thinking that Gouvernail is railing against. The class has just recently completed a long process to design and approve a new sail design due to complaints about the cost durability of the original sail design. I don't know all of the details, but the effort engaged the approved sail makers to spend quite a bit of effort and thus expense on designing the new sail. That investment reinforces the class' obligation to the class approved sailmakers, which maintains the status quo. The market, on the other hand has solved the problem in a much more cost effective way. A $600 sail that only lasts a few regattas is a hard pill to swallow. Some enterprising individuals out there realized that they could make identical sails and sell them at 25% of the cost. Those sails in some cases were also more durable since they used slightly heavier sailcloth. The class could have have changed the rules to allow those sailmakers to pay a royalty and make class legal sails. Say, $50 per sail. It creates an additional revenue stream for the class and reduces the cost burden in the sailors. The sailmakers previously granted a monopoly would either have to adjust and stop making obscene margins off of your class members or lose 100% of the business. With thousands of boats out there you have a ton of leverage that you aren't using because you are so dedicated to the traditional relationships that tell you you have to grant these monopolies so that you can maintain a supply. The class already has a market, you no longer need to create one. As long as the market exist, suppliers will come forward to supply the market. It's obviously strong enough of a market to support the traditional suppliers as well as a thriving grey market.

 

The continuing widespread success of Laser sailing at the grassroots level owes a lot to the availability of these "practice" sails. Pretty much every local fleet around here allows them now.

 

I met someone the other day who told me that one of the main reasons he had bought a Laser was because of the widespread availability of inexpensive "not class legal" parts. Not just sails. Foils. Spars. Etc. Etc.

 

Whether or not our current class officials want to embrace, ignore or fight this trend, I guess they are constrained by the current class constitution which gives the Laser builders veto power over any class rule changes such as legalizing these cheaper sails and parts.

 

The truth is that most of the boats racing in all these thriving fleets all over the world are not, strictly speaking, Lasers at all any more. They are "boats that used to be Lasers before their owners bought a sail and maybe a few other parts that don't comply with Laser class rules."

 

Is it a problem? Maybe not. We keep the game cheap and more people can play.

 

Maybe it's even a selling point for the class?

 

I agree with you Tiller Man.

 

It's my experience that the official events that I have competed in (in the last 3 years), have not allowed the practice sails, but appear to allow other parts (goosenecks, self bailers, and foils being the only parts I'm aware of.)

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It's my experience that the official events that I have competed in (in the last 3 years), have not allowed the practice sails, but appear to allow other parts (goosenecks, self bailers, and foils being the only parts I'm aware of.)

 

 

Sail is the only thing that is immediately obvious as far as being class legal. Anything else would require a detailed inspection, and that only really happens at worlds-level events. And if there is no inspection by the regatta organizers, I suppose it would be up to other sailors to protest for enforcement.

 

Found myself in a situation a few months ago at an open two day regatta. I think I was the only one there with a class-legal sail. I suppose I could have been an ass about it, but in reality I was glad to have other boats to race against. And I certainly would not have been popular with the other sailors.

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I think there's actually a recent occurrence that illustrates the type of status quo thinking that Gouvernail is railing against. The class has just recently completed a long process to design and approve a new sail design due to complaints about the cost durability of the original sail design. I don't know all of the details, but the effort engaged the approved sail makers to spend quite a bit of effort and thus expense on designing the new sail. That investment reinforces the class' obligation to the class approved sailmakers, which maintains the status quo. The market, on the other hand has solved the problem in a much more cost effective way. A $600 sail that only lasts a few regattas is a hard pill to swallow. Some enterprising individuals out there realized that they could make identical sails and sell them at 25% of the cost. Those sails in some cases were also more durable since they used slightly heavier sailcloth. The class could have have changed the rules to allow those sailmakers to pay a royalty and make class legal sails. Say, $50 per sail. It creates an additional revenue stream for the class and reduces the cost burden in the sailors. The sailmakers previously granted a monopoly would either have to adjust and stop making obscene margins off of your class members or lose 100% of the business. With thousands of boats out there you have a ton of leverage that you aren't using because you are so dedicated to the traditional relationships that tell you you have to grant these monopolies so that you can maintain a supply. The class already has a market, you no longer need to create one. As long as the market exist, suppliers will come forward to supply the market. It's obviously strong enough of a market to support the traditional suppliers as well as a thriving grey market.

 

 

I am given to understand that the new sail has an additional levy imposed on it, one that is meant to recover the cost of a patent application. What the makers of the new sail have achieved is a similar price to the old sail, with greater durability. Every Laser sailer I have met wanted the better at a lesser cost, and I believe that was achievable - it's just that there was no desire for that. I see that the revenue from sail buttons went from US$74,838 in 2013 to US$107,607 in 2014.

 

 

Assuming that the revenue isn't rounded and the button cost is an integer and hasn't changed between 2013 and 2014, those numbers would imply that the revenue of a sail button is $3.00 per button. I'm not sure that's accurate as it would require almost 25,000 sails to have been sold in 2013 and almost 36,00 to have been sold in 2014. So let's try a more conservative estimate of 1,000 sails in 2013. That would make the button revenue about $75. I believe the current cost of a class sail is $530 and the non class sails can be found for $140. So, even if the current non class sails added the cost of the button, they would still only cost $215. Their current price certainly already contains some profit so that would mean that the additional expenses or profit on the class sails is $315. That's either highly inefficient manufacturing or rather obscene margin. Either way, I think it's clear that the current arrangement is highly beneficial to the sailmaker at the expense of the sailors who make up the class.

 

I guess the real point in all this is that when you have a group that has been in leadership for a very long time they tend to form personal relationships with the builders and the sailmakers. Those personal relationships can impede proper governance of any organization.

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Assuming that the revenue isn't rounded and the button cost is an integer and hasn't changed between 2013 and 2014, those numbers would imply that the revenue of a sail button is $3.00 per button. I'm not sure that's accurate as it would require almost 25,000 sails to have been sold in 2013 and almost 36,00 to have been sold in 2014. So let's try a more conservative estimate of 1,000 sails in 2013. That would make the button revenue about $75. I believe the current cost of a class sail is $530 and the non class sails can be found for $140. So, even if the current non class sails added the cost of the button, they would still only cost $215. Their current price certainly already contains some profit so that would mean that the additional expenses or profit on the class sails is $315. That's either highly inefficient manufacturing or rather obscene margin. Either way, I think it's clear that the current arrangement is highly beneficial to the sailmaker at the expense of the sailors who make up the class.

 

I guess the real point in all this is that when you have a group that has been in leadership for a very long time they tend to form personal relationships with the builders and the sailmakers. Those personal relationships can impede proper governance of any organization.

 

There is some great logic there JuanNephrota, yes it would seem likely that exactly has you say the individual sail button cost would fall somewhere between $3 to $75.

 

But that's not the point.

 

The main issue to me is the sustained 'reluctance' by the World Council to release information. This leads to speculative comments like yours above, and the rumours (accurate or not) of information being passed on - which includes me passing on that the new sail has a levy to recover the cost of the new sail's patent.

 

One could view that this is a culture of secrecy, and in my judgment is no way to run an organisation like the ILCA.

 

At it's worst, it breeds complacency within the ILCA World Council, which is not used to the proper scrutiny of it's membership. So for example, when it was time to hold a very important change such as in 2011 change to the fundamental rule, the officers of the ILCA's efforts went lacking. Specifically, there was a difference between the online wording and printed proposal (the online version was changed); there was conflict between the world council and national bodies: specifically, the UKLA urged members to not vote immediately - whereas the world council urged members to vote immediately; sloppy statements were made regarding the historic nature of agreements - as it turned out, the builder's contracts were renewed regularly.

 

To me, a great step forward would be one where the ILCA World Council writes better minutes and makes them available to their members. (Caveat - if the ILCA World Council already does this, then I know members who do not know how to access them). A great solution can be seen with the ILCA-NA, who keep minutes and has them publicly available on their website.

 

But back to the sail buttons. The most recent information relates to the 2014 calendar year, and was just over 11 months old when released. I find it incomprehensible that more current information is not made available to the membership. It's likely that the 2015 revenue figures are already available, but won't be released until Dec 2016. That delay made sense in 1986, but not in 2016. (My expectation is that the ILCA has a modern accounting system.)

 

Meanwhile we can't say for sure how much the sailmakers get per sail, how much margin the builders get, or how much the ILCA levy to recover the cost of the patent is. But yes, we can speculate that the cost of the buttons is likely to fall between $3 and $75.

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Although some of Gouv's words are beautiful. My personal favorite is "wasbinntgevdumos" from Post 3031. But, like orange, it's hard to find a word that rhymes.

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I very much appreciate the Fact Andy Roy posted here. I sincerely hope he and all the other ILCA officers will use this forum and whatever other forums they can find to regularly disseminate information and voice their opinions.

 

Not so much about all the lawsuit stuff.

 

These forums are a great tool which can be used along with whatever other tools we have to both gather and disseminate information about our fabulous game.

 

Just a few minutes every once in a while spent by class officers, fleet captains, regatta chairs, and anybody else who cares would turn this forum onto a cornucopia of information about our game.

Where to buy toys

Where to buy parts

Where to find fleets

Where to find regattas

Where to find repair help

How to fix things yourself

Where to stay near regatta sites

Where to eat

What to wear

Where to buy gear

What gear works or lasts best

Strategy

Tactics

Custom rigging

What is class legal

Seeking hosts for events

Talking up upcoming events

Reports on ongoing events

Pictures ( I posted a couple hundred photos in dinghy Anarchy after the 2009 Halifax Masters world's. The thread had thousands of hits.

No one has lifted a finger to do anything similar since. )

(Al Clark is all over Facebook and that is great!!! )

Road trip stories.

Birth announcements

Funeral announcements

Wedding announcements

 

Laser racing needs a community to work. The only currently healthy communities are of the masters and the super funded top level competitors

 

I see the FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT job of the Class as gathering and disseminating information.

I see the newsletter and the Internet and phones and the mail as the tools for making sailing happen .

 

Last thing in this rant

The purpose of the newsletter is NOT to employ a publishing company, please advertisers, look pretty, or give officers a forum to tell what the class is doing

The Newsletter is a tool for the class ( which is also a tool ) to disseminate information.

Ads are nice in that they tell sailors where to purchase the toys they need to play.

Photos of people having fun are seductive for those considering coming to play with us

The newsletter is a tool for putting information in the potential sailor's hands

Since 2002 I have referred to the NA newsletter as "content free."

The absurdly expensive format is devoid of space for the dissemination of the very most important information and regatta reports. It is regularly published with no reports from many districts. ( there are phones both in the class office and the homes of every district chairman. There are no excuses for failing to create a district report)

Allan Broadribb taught me we could not possibly have put all the information in potential sailors' hands we used to publish without the fabulous inexpensive newsprint tabloid.

He was correct.

Lots of people are not playing with us today because we failed to invite them and tell them the myriad of stuff they needed to know to be able to show up and play

The pretty newsletter is useless and a total waste of time and money

The NA class has not had a newsletter since 2002. The class sends out that pretty thing with ads and no content

I used to print up an extra 2000 copies per issue so I could leave them at yacht clubs, hand to local folks to use as promotional material or give to the Opti kids to help develop better reading skills

The expensive newsletters are useless

Absolutely useless

Lost opportunity because the money and time is being spent on something useless

Am I clear??

 

 

The class grew for 35 consecutive months while I was making most of the things described above happen

 

I believe we share the same goals .... Lotta fun lotta friends lotta sailing great competition

 

The fundamental goal / purpose of the ILCA is NOT TO BE A WELL RUN ORGANIZATION.

The purpose of the ILCA is to make the game better.

Fred, I'll try to provide some more input to this thread from the my perspective as a member of the ILCA. But again, to you and other rock throwers out there, I believe we do have the members best interests in mind and if I didn't think that was the case, believe me, I'd resign in a heartbeat.

 

A comment to your mini-rant regarding the NA quarterly newsletter and to correct you on a key misconception. during several of our monthly NA Exec phone meetings when we've been looking at the finances, I have brought up the newsletter and asked questions such as, should we go to an e-version rather than mailing? Each time I've brought this up I've been reminded of the same thing: the newsletter does not cost a dime and it is actually a solid revenue generator as a result of the advertising. And the advertisers really like the newsletter and want to keep supporting it; and, from what I understand, they prefer the printed version to an online version with the thinking that people will look at it more than once as it lies around their coffee table.

 

As for your claim that there is no content, that in my opinion is not the case. I think it's a good publication, but you of course are entitled to your opinion since it's a subjective topic. We regularly receive and publish excellent articles from fitness experts and race coaches on such things as drills and other go fast tips. Most major regattas have a write-up in the TLS from someone who raced in the event, and we are continually pushing and encouraging the District Secretaries to send in news, results, pictures, NOR"s for upcoming regattas, etc., etc. Any Laser sailor who wants to contribute to the newsletter is more than welcome to do - we are always looking for submissions.

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Sorry my effort to help is received as an attack.

 

I fully recignize many good people are swimming as hard as they can

I do not mean to be throwing rocks.

 

 

I may be lousy at it but I am and have been throwing life preservers and food packets for years.

Apparently the life rings are thrown too hard and hurting more than helping

 

 

I absolutely support having a newsletter packed full of as much information as will fit.

 

On line information dissemination lacks the force of a sheet of paper

Once again, the purpose of the newsletter is to help the game and is a tool to be greedily used to disseminate information.

 

The purpose of the newsletter is not to satisfy advertisers.

The purpose of the newsletter is not to generate funds

The purpose of the newsletter is not to provide a job for a publishing team

 

Four times a year the newsletter can be our chance to put information and seductive invitations to play with us in people's hands.

 

The simple fact is, the newsprint format had at least five times as much space between the ads to be used for disseminating information.

The ONLY reason we only had 64 pages during my three years was the difficulty of creating fun to read content for filling more pages.

Please don't take the following as criticism!! Please take it as an old student of the management and promotion of sailing telling you what he thinks.

 

I believe the newsletter is doing a nice job of serving the wrong interests and failing miserably to serve its real best use.

It simply lacks the available column inches.

 

The job of our secretary is not to sell ads and publish those ads in a pretty newsletter. The job is to gather and disseminate information

The job is to fill a big fat quarterly newsletter with the sort of information that causes our game to prosper.

 

A poor workman blames his tools

A great mechanic usually supplies himself with fabulous tools

 

A guy who has used fabulous tools to accomplish a job is telling you, "you guys are not using the right tools."

 

Using the shiny newsletter is sort of like using an expensive chisel to turn a screw. It costs more and does not work as well as a good old screwdriver

 

 

Just think what you could do with FIVE TIMES AS MUCH SPACE !!!

 

 

Maybe I am the wrong guy to be heard.

I believe the class would benefit from hiring Allan Broadribb to spend a week working with and helping to refocus the efforts of the association

 

Thank you for all your time and effort!!!

Of all the people on the planet I am among the very most able to appreciate every second spent by you on helping my favorite game.

I know what you do

I know how long it takes

I know exactly how you are paid ...., and it damn sure isn't money or anything else you can spend

Thank you

Thanks, Fred, and I totally get what you're saying. Good constructive dialogue.

Andy

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Fairly silly question really.

 

Will there be a specific levy on sails exclusively and only to recover the cost of the patent? Bet the answer is "no, WTF would you bother to cost that out and administer it separately"

Will the cost of the patent be recovered from ILCA income? Bet the answer is "sure, the magic fairies won't pay for it."

 

Presumably the ILCA view was that in order to protect and encourage the single design principle that has been central to the success of the Laser it was advantageous to add extra protection to the new design. If so then its not inappropriate to spend CA money on the patent.

 

Unlike the highly dubious shenanigans that went on around the ballot I don't really see this as dodgy in any way.

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Fairly silly question really.

 

Will there be a specific levy on sails exclusively and only to recover the cost of the patent? Bet the answer is "no, WTF would you bother to cost that out and administer it separately"

Will the cost of the patent be recovered from ILCA income? Bet the answer is "sure, the magic fairies won't pay for it."

 

Presumably the ILCA view was that in order to protect and encourage the single design principle that has been central to the success of the Laser it was advantageous to add extra protection to the new design. If so then its not inappropriate to spend CA money on the patent.

 

Unlike the highly dubious shenanigans that went on around the ballot I don't really see this as dodgy in any way.

 

Actually, according to my source there is a levy, however nobody on the ILCA WC has confirmed this publically, nor is it mentioned in any minutes available to the membership, or in any release, newsletter or magazine.

 

IMJ, it's reflective of a ILCA WC unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication.

 

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

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Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

 

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

 

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

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... I can't find any relevant US patents.

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US8739721

 

My understanding is that the ILCA paid considerably more than US$10K for the patent. I seem to recall being told a figure close to US$20K, however can't seem to find a note of it (maybe I was told verbally).

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Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

 

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

 

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

 

There are both. Here is the "design" patent. Not really sure of the value of a design patent.

 

https://www.google.com/patents/USD664493

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I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

 

 

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

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I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

 

 

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

 

Oh stop with your logic. Its the holiday season; let the fruitcake live!

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Perhaps my searching skills are sub-par, or perhaps it hasn't been published yet, but I can't find any relevant US patents.

 

Also, $10k might get you a US patent, but that won't help you in Europe or Australia.

 

Finally, in the USA, there are two types of patents, "design" patents and "utility" patents. Which is this?

 

There are both. Here is the "design" patent. Not really sure of the value of a design patent.

 

https://www.google.com/patents/USD664493

Not quite sure I follow the logic of this design, from experience having a vertical panel up the luff from the tack to the horizontal seam improves the reaction of downhaul to the sail. Without it, the fullness blows back in the lower half of the sail as the cloth bias is perpendicular to the Cunningham load, and in the top half of the sail the fullness is pulled forewards as it should be and the leach twists open. This means the upper and lower leach almost contradict each other.
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Not quite sure I follow the logic of this design, from experience having a vertical panel up the luff from the tack to the horizontal seam improves the reaction of downhaul to the sail. Without it, the fullness blows back in the lower half of the sail as the cloth bias is perpendicular to the Cunningham load, and in the top half of the sail the fullness is pulled forewards as it should be and the leach twists open. This means the upper and lower leach almost contradict each other.

 

Normally in sailing, a sail is designed to be the fastest possible. In this case, the objective was to make the new sail have the same performance as the old one.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it would be an opportunity for Andy to comment. It's relevant because otherwise those interested in Laser sailing are left to speculate why the new sails are such a high cost.

 

 

The new sail costs less than the old one. Clearly it's more expensive to produce so the margins must be smaller.

If it also lasts longer we got ourselves a good deal.

E

 

It's only less expensive in North America. In other markets, the cost is very similar to the older sail.

 

Those who believe that the sail is overpriced, compare the cost of mass production and the cost of the replica sails with the cost of both the new and the old one.

 

Of even more concern is an ILCA that is unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication. A symptom of this ineffectiveness is the taking of 5 years to introduce the new sail.

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Of even more concern is an ILCA that is unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication. A symptom of this ineffectiveness is the taking of 5 years to introduce the new sail.

 

Cannt be consistent? Previously incorrectly insist that it was LPE that delayed the sail... now its ILCA. Good grief; keep trying and eventually the right answer will emerge.

 

Have to laugh about the other point. You hate, hate, hate them. You are not a member, don't pay any dues; but still voted in class matters, and then you complain like a rejected teenage girl... "why won't you talk to me."

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You need to wait for the current postponement to end first. All waiting for a judge. He's supposed to hand down a decision within 6 months of the hearing but according to the court records often doesn't.

Your legal system is amazingly broken seppos.

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'Your legal system is amazingly broken"

Indeed, the law on design patents is even more fucked than most people can imagine. As it currently stands, if someone has a design patent on a car hood ornament, and it's found to be infringed, that patentee must be awarded 100% of the entire profits made on the whole car. Not may be awarded, MUST be awarded. There is a single appellate court for patent case in the United States, and this is what they say the law demands.

I. Shit.You. Not.

ILCA was smart to get the design patent. They are fast and easy to get, and obviously weapons of economic mass destruction once you have one in hand. Makes the multi-billion dollar utility patent trolling racket look like Sunday bingo....and soon enough the results will tell.

You can read some Supreme Court amici briefs on it here. This state of affairs probably has a year or two left to run before the Supreme Court steps in. At least in the area of patents, the Supreme Court is been on the ball and strongly aligned internally- many 9-0 votes on patent cases lately.

http://patentlyo.com/patent/2016/01/functional-patents-disgorgement.html

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  • 3 weeks later...

From Laser World, December 2015:

 

A motion was passed to curtail the hard copy printing and mailing of LaserWorld magazine and use the cost savings to enhance the ILCA’s online media presence. With this modification, the 2016 budget was then approved.

 

Exactly where are the online enhancements?

 

Right now the ILCA website sports a main menu that does not display properly and has broken links to images.

 

Cost of engaging enthusiastic volunteers to fix this = zero, which incidentally is the same cost as converting the site to a modern responsive design. Maybe the ILCA's website isn't considered important.

 

Is something broken with the ILCA? What other conclusion is there to reach?

 

In the mean-time, still nothing from the courts, so we continue to wait.

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Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

 

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

 

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

 

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

 

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

 

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

 

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

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Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

 

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

 

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

 

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

 

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

 

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

 

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

 

Wess - that is disgraceful. How dare you talk about actually sailing Lasers on this thread.

 

Don't you know that this thread is purely for people who want to whine about how evil the people involved in designing Lasers or building Lasers or selling Lasers or organizing Laser racing really are and how they are all screwing us out of our money or wasting our money or are incompetent or all of the above.

 

Please get with the program. Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

Come on Wess. Pull yourself together. You can do it.

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Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

 

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

 

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

 

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

 

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

 

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

 

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

 

Wess - that is disgraceful. How dare you talk about actually sailing Lasers on this thread.

 

Don't you know that this thread is purely for people who want to whine about how evil the people involved in designing Lasers or building Lasers or selling Lasers or organizing Laser racing really are and how they are all screwing us out of our money or wasting our money or are incompetent or all of the above.

 

Please get with the program. Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

Come on Wess. Pull yourself together. You can do it.

 

LOL, I think I can, I think I can.

 

Ah heck no, I can't. Instead I am just going to go vote is some town's election where I don't live or pay taxes... that I am not entitled to vote in. And then complain about the outcome. Is Chicago cold this time of year? "Vote early and often..."

 

I did have a good time yesterday. Slowly getting out of racing as the kids head off to college (first one at USNA), but the Laser will be the last thing to go before I am 100% cruiser again. Had a few shoulder surgeries so been sailing the Radial (way too overweight for it) to keep the shoulder strain and capsizes in breeze to a minimum. Yesterday was so cold the radials bailed so I had to sail full rig.

 

It was so nice to have to hike again, LOL.

 

Now I just need to figure out this new sail...

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Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

There are so many ways to respond to this. Maybe it was an attempt at humor. Or has the Tillerman become a troll?

 

BTW, here's a link to the ILCA web page where the menu is not linking and it sports broken links to images:

http://laserinternational.org/info/laserworld

 

And this is what I see:

ILCA website Feb 2016 with broken links And menu Not functioning properly

 

Have some experience in Drupal (the CMS that the ILCA uses) I can say that both are an easy fix. And as a Laser sailor that gives a crap, someone needs their butt kicked into action!

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Tiller man is right,

Rottenecards_3298566_bkq4m474mm.png

 

13 years and seven months is WAY to short a period for guys who only volunteer their time to answer questions about the way they run things.

Tiller man is also correct in his belief any attempt to give advice during those 13 years and seven months is an attack.

Note: This new social and organizational rule went into effect August 1, 2002. Anyone who volunteered or held a paying position in the Class organization before that date is fair game. You can make up anything you choose and be as abusive as you choose as all those scumbags are beneath the lowest form of contempt.

Wag more; bark less. Its healthier.

 

I have never felt the urge to complain about anything in a court case while sailing. Even in the cold!

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Of even more concern is an ILCA that is unwilling or unable to be open in it's communication. A symptom of this ineffectiveness is the taking of 5 years to introduce the new sail.

 

Cannt be consistent? Previously incorrectly insist that it was LPE that delayed the sail... now its ILCA. Good grief; keep trying and eventually the right answer will emerge.

 

Have to laugh about the other point. You hate, hate, hate them. You are not a member, don't pay any dues; but still voted in class matters, and then you complain like a rejected teenage girl... "why won't you talk to me."

 

 

Wess, thank you for your response.

 

Just to spell out what I meant by my comment, LP and PSA both sit on the ILCA world council. What prevented the sail from being released was PSA's vote in their capacity as a member of ILCA's WC. Looking at the underlying issues, communication (or the lack of effective communication) figures large, as does the legal action by Bruce Kirby.

Regarding my membership status, I am a former member of the ILCA. I don't hate the ILCA. The ILCA website is broken. Part of the reason I have shared that is in the hope it gets fixed. Yes, I do support Kirby in his legal action, and have spoken previously about the specific improvements to the ILCA that will see me rejoin.

 

The great thing about communicating in writing is that there is a permanent record of what was said. Here's my previous post on the subject of the new sail, and a response from Jeffers:

 

 

Can anyone offer any valid reason the ILCA has delayed the release of the new Laser sail and carbon top section?

 

This is not a witch hunt, it's more about understanding what the actual reasons are.

 

And before simply answering "because of the legal action", that in itself in not a valid reason - because all that will potentially change is the North American and European builder - a change that has occurred before. Yes there is some minor disruption to supply - but the sailing goes on...

 

Because of how the class/rights holder/builder relationship is set up it means that any change like this requires the agreement of all of them before it can go to the ISAF to be approved.

 

Last I heard it was LP USA (as opposed to LP Europe) who were not agreeing to the change. Although if my 'spy' at LP is to be believed it is not them who are not agreeing.

 

To be fair if their builder agreement has been terminated why is their agreement required at all? Although to ignore them might have future repercussions depending on the outcome of the court case. This could be why ILCA are currently sitting on the fence.

 

IMO it is wrong for LP to release this sail to market at this time. My local club has already said it is not acceptable for Laser fleet racing (even though we do allow replicas within reason).

 

Then later in 2014 I wrote:

Also, the new sail has been discussed, a report that said that LP were delaying it's introduction has been found to be false, it is actually PSA who are voting against the new sail.

 

I can only guess that Wess thinks the above is an example of me "...incorrectly insist that it was LPE that delayed the sail..."

 

What I can't figure out is whether or not Wess is mistaken (yet again) or deliberately lying.

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You are soon correct Wess. Any attempt to make helpful suggestions is complaining.

Those who consistently contribute are bitch artists.

It doesn't matter how many times or in how many ways a person thanks those who are currently volunteering or praises the current set of employees, THE SLIGHTEST SUGGESTION there could be improvement in any way shape or form is whining and bitching.

Disagreement with ANY volunteer's decisions is beyond reproach.

There is no other course of action worth considering!!!

Shut-Up-And-Sail-The-Boat-Men-s-T-Shirt-

LOVE the shirt. Got a source?!?

 

I cant think of any current or past class volunteer in any class that I don't think highly of even if I might disagree with their views and/or approach.

 

I am less a fan of those who Canntt be bothered to join (but do vote, take, and bitch) and have never volunteered or contributed in a meaningful way.

 

But right now I am focused on scouring the internet and friends views for how to set and trim the new sail downwind in light to moderate breeze when sailing by the lee.

 

Its possible I came to the wrong place LOL.

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I am less a fan of those who Canntt be bothered to join (but do vote, take, and bitch) and have never volunteered or contributed in a meaningful way.

 

Please stop lying Wess.

 

You are a fan of mine, nobody has posted more about me than you.

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One way to figure out your new sail is to grab a few friends, rig up, and go try things.

The guaranteed way is to go to Florida and sail in all the big regattas this month

In this thread your responses will undoubtedly be more about the politics behind the new sail .

Some people think it is important to have a free flow of information from those we trust to make decisions about our game. They tend to gravitate towards discussions about those politics.

You might do better starting a new thread in Dinghy Anarchy about the use of the new sail.

You may also get great answers in the Laser forum sailing section. Bradley set up a separate section dedicated to politics so the discussions on the sailing section remain focused on sailing.

 

I have boats to fix

Gouv - I know. What a concept... sail rather than type. :)

 

But I have the day off, its snowing, and so I am just having fun with the resident troll above (I think he sell T-shirts and I was hoping to source your suggested shirt from him). ;)

 

Of all places I think I will be sailing a Laser in India next week.

 

But now I have snow to shovel. :(

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Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

 

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

 

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

 

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

 

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

 

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

 

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

 

Wess - that is disgraceful. How dare you talk about actually sailing Lasers on this thread.

 

Don't you know that this thread is purely for people who want to whine about how evil the people involved in designing Lasers or building Lasers or selling Lasers or organizing Laser racing really are and how they are all screwing us out of our money or wasting our money or are incompetent or all of the above.

 

Please get with the program. Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

Come on Wess. Pull yourself together. You can do it.

 

Yes come on Wess you are fucking up this thread by talking about sailing! :lol:

 

Seriously, start a new thread on this topic. It is something I think a lot of us would like to discuss without having to weed though all the other stuff on this thread.

 

I have not even seen the new sail in person yet but thinking about buying one in the Spring. I recall reading that the design of the luff is different to eliminate the crease at the mast section joint. So one problem fix created a new problem???

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Hey, here is an idea. Lets talk sailing.

 

Anybody using the new class full rig sail yet?

 

I am a bit of a cheapo. My first Laser was free. So was my second. Just had to rebuild them. My current boat cost me $500. Its about ready to be a beach boat. But I never spent more than this on a Laser. So the sails are a big part of the program costs when not doing club racing that allows the use of the generic sails.

 

Yesterday I did some frostbiting and used the new class legal full rig sail. It cost more than my boat. But sure looks nicely designed and constructed and offering more value than the original version.

 

Late too the course so little time to play and off we go on first upwind leg. Sail is not much different upwind but downwind.... YIKES!! I round the ww mark in 2nd and ease the outhaul as normal, let out the main and ease the vang to its preset (boom just about or higher than 90 to the mast). This take most of the bend out of the mast and after pulling up the board I look up at the sail for the first time while trying to connect by the lee and... THERE IS A HUGE VERTICAL FOLD DOWN THE LUFF. FUGLY (and slow... lost a bunch of spots; ugh!)

 

Cunningham all the way off. Tried everything to get a decent shape back but the only way was to add lots of vang to bend the mast which give a tight leech. Really changes the feel of the boat downwind by the lee. Be interested to see if this sail stretches with time and settings go more or less back to normal.

 

If you happen to be more into sailing Lasers than rich folks trying to take more of your money for a centuries old napkin and taking volunteers to court, get out and give the new class sail a go before your first important regatta.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Laser class sailors are evil, sky is falling, rich grey hair guy w napkin is God thread!

 

Wess - that is disgraceful. How dare you talk about actually sailing Lasers on this thread.

 

Don't you know that this thread is purely for people who want to whine about how evil the people involved in designing Lasers or building Lasers or selling Lasers or organizing Laser racing really are and how they are all screwing us out of our money or wasting our money or are incompetent or all of the above.

 

Please get with the program. Make up some story about something bad that somebody in charge of running our game hasn't done but might conceivably have done, and then challenge them to confirm it and to reveal how much they are being paid. And then when they don't respond to your post in ten minutes, accuse them of lack of transparency and being unfit for their office etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

Come on Wess. Pull yourself together. You can do it.

 

Yes come on Wess you are fucking up this thread by talking about sailing! :lol:

 

Seriously, start a new thread on this topic. It is something I think a lot of us would like to discuss without having to weed though all the other stuff on this thread.

 

I have not even seen the new sail in person yet but thinking about buying one in the Spring. I recall reading that the design of the luff is different to eliminate the crease at the mast section joint. So one problem fix created a new problem???

 

OK, OK already. I was not all that serious but OK I'll start a thread on the new sail.

 

Mine did not look like this when sailing downwind:

 

Ugh, canntt insert a photo.

 

How do you insert a photo I got straight off from the site the troll says doesn't work. Can save it to my computer but canntt figure out how to post it here.

 

Where are my kids when I need them? My IT skills stink.

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Gouv - There is so much to have fun with in your post I just had to save it for later. But I will just leave it at this...

 

Pretty is a lousy term to describe properly adjusting your sail controls.
Pretty could be how it looks when you are happy to see it is set to perform well
Or pretty could mean wrinkle free
Or pretty could mean it is up and I am not at work

Pictures of fleets help a bit as the guys in the front MAY have their sails more ideally set up than those behind them

Or they may have caught a shift or just sailed better except for being lousy at sail trim

With every previous sail design there has been a group of winners who led everyone to follow their tuning and in most cases that tuning style was supplanted as we all kept trying things.

As a bigger guy I have always had to tune for more power than the hotshots. If I tune exactkyvasvtgey do, I am always off speed. For a bigger guy power does not need to be turned off nearly as early as the wind builds and forward must often be substituted for height

You need to go sailing

Perhaps the best thing is to use this cold weather time to make more money or do more chores so you can focus on sailing when the weather allows you to play with your toys!!
Go back to that site and look at the schedule pages. Then organize your life so you can get to a few of the wonderful events.
Mostly?? Have fun with your life!! Rumor has it you may not get another

 

 

I did! :)

 

Hell no! Cold weather is for frostbiting! Guys who like pink bunnies start the sailing season in the Spring... wimps! :D

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Excellent - the ILCA had partly fixed the issue:

 

ILCA website with menu that doesn't display properly And boken links Feb 2016   partly fixed

The links to the images have been fixed.
Remaining issue is the menu. Did you know that different browsers display differently? This issue is visible in Chrome on Windows 7, the most popular browser / OS combination in the world. (It's OK on Windows 10). Am happy to volunteer my time to fix it, though it's unlikely that the ILCA would accept.
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I only check into this thread when the page number changes, so just doing my bit. :P

 

One half of this thread is posted by those who are too thick to understand the issues. The other half by those who haven't given up trying to make a case. I may have those positions reversed though.

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Excellent - the ILCA had partly fixed the issue:

 

The links to the images have been fixed.
Remaining issue is the menu. Did you know that different browsers display differently? This issue is visible in Chrome on Windows 7, the most popular browser / OS combination in the world. (It's OK on Windows 10). Am happy to volunteer my time to fix it, though it's unlikely that the ILCA would accept.

 

 

Maybe you could work out a deal with them. Get a year or two of class membership dues free in exchange for some website maintenance.

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  • 1 month later...

What is up with this group of supposed Laser lovers?

 

Ian Bruce passes and not a single kind word. Who's your Daddy?

 

Gosh the thread was almost off the page.

 

Anyway, a tip of the cap to Ian.

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Considering what the thread is about, namely conflict in the Laser world, I thought it was inappropriate to comment on his passing on this thread as it might all to easily lead to yet another war of words.

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