New imoca boats

[Starkindler 2]

Is taking a short cut over Africa allowed?

[3to1 488]

8 minutes ago, Starkindler said:

Is taking a short cut over Africa allowed?

yea, without outside help.

[terrafirma 1,079]

11 hours ago, southerncross said:

I haven’t followed as closely as I should...

Are the new breed designed to keep on without the foil like the last Boss or are they toast if one snaps off?

You can't get around the fact if the foils snaps off your toast.! Or your slower.. 

[Essex 67]

Deleted

[terrafirma 1,079]

Gen One foils according to Beyou on Charal. New foils coming however each boat may have slightly different designs. Only 50% of the boats will make it around the world with full foils IMO. They are terrible odds

[Miffy 2,140]

2016 had 29 starters. 6 foilers. 

 

Of which 18 finished. 5 foilers finished. 4 of foilers in top 4. 1 abandoned. 

 

I don't think the actual data suggests foiling to be any worse than 2012 imocas. And certainly the foilers avoided massive low pressure storms that overtook the stragglers. 

 

There's an overemphasis on Charal and other imoca programs PR footage of the boats riding high and dropping down. But it is the ability to have better VMG, reduce sail area but maintain speed that makes them so good for the southern ocean. It is a no brainier and the debate should have ended after 2016 for anyone paying attention. 

 

[ALL@SEA 259]

Better odds than the (very) nonfoiling Golden Globers!

[r.finn 403]

1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

Better odds than the (very) nonfoiling Golden Globers!

Truth.

 

[ITA602 40]

10 hours ago, Zonker said:

Well, he's joking. This image is from the mythical SA front page:

 

Yes, it's a simulator. Just because it cannot be moved to windward!

I'm very curious to see a below deck tour of this stealth fighter.

[terrafirma 1,079]

 

[Starwax 0]

21 hours ago, Santi said:

Lines remind me of TP52s.

and extremely emerged transom in this photo 

That is one very low boom. Was talked about but clearly trying to close up that gap. 

[serialsailor 117]

21 hours ago, Santi said:

Lines remind me of TP52s.

and extremely emerged transom in this photo 

I think you meant immersed.

[jb5 1,126]

6 hours ago, ITA602 said:

Yes, it's a simulator. Just because it cannot be moved to windward!

I'm very curious to see a below deck tour of this stealth fighter.

I would expect the cockpit to look pretty similar to Charal and Apivia and others (not Arkea) under the canopy.  You still need to have a survival cell of some sort with access to the stern escape hatch in case of capsize.  They are going to need all the power they can gather without a diesel to run the AP, Keel, Comms and everything else these boats typically have.  Fancy control systems seem unlikely given the humidity they are going to have in that enclosed space down south.

[ctutmark 236]

In case these haven't already been posted-

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/video-charlie-dalin-devoile-son-nouveau-bateau-pour-le-vendee-globe-partie-1-2714e358-b76d-11e9-bd23-1ffade3707c2

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/video-charlie-dalin-devoile-son-nouveau-bateau-pour-le-vendee-globe-partie-2-ce5c7880-b793-11e9-bd23-1ffade3707c2?utm_source=neolane_of_newsletter-voilesetvoiliers&mediego_ruuid=a96d210c-1c92-45f6-939c-f9a9a18e8913_4&mediego_campaign=20190807_email_voile-et-voiliers&utm_content=20190807&utm_campaign=of_newsletter-voilesetvoiliers&utm_medium=email&vid=1742016&mediego_euid=1742016

 

Some great glimpses of the boat layout throughout the videos. 

[Chimp too 308]

3 hours ago, jb5 said:

I would expect the cockpit to look pretty similar to Charal and Apivia and others (not Arkea) under the canopy.  You still need to have a survival cell of some sort with access to the stern escape hatch in case of capsize.  They are going to need all the power they can gather without a diesel to run the AP, Keel, Comms and everything else these boats typically have.  Fancy control systems seem unlikely given the humidity they are going to have in that enclosed space down south.

I think that you are wrong. No separate cockpit and cabin under coach roof. The weight gain is removing unnecessary structure, which includes a traditional cockpit , companionway and escape tunnel.

[Rafael 246]

THE STEEL BULL vs THE FLYING BAT (lets not discount new Macif's Alpivia)

Charal's Steel Bull has outperformed the IMOCA fleet in Fastnet, after one year of no results and fine tunning, this thing is amazing!! (alltough looks quite unstable, very wet and also demanding...)

Let's wait and see the new weapon of Alex in its full glory (interiors and new pink BAT foils!)... Expext one year or so of fine tuning too!

To finish in 1st Place, first you have finish... 8^)

[r.finn 403]

23 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

I think that you are wrong. No separate cockpit and cabin under coach roof. The weight gain is removing unnecessary structure, which includes a traditional cockpit , companionway and escape tunnel.

Plus it allows lowest winches/pedestal in the fleet, close to the keel.  

[jb5 1,126]

Good point but that also means lots of weight high up relatively with the then structural coach roof and hatches (does the aft one even close?) and the support of all those solar panels and their wiring. If correct it will be interesting but to me if you're going the enclosed route the Apivia approach looks smarter. Are those solar panels even non skid?

[southerncross 3,901]

 

[Varan 1,940]

Good find SC. Love their openness. Arrows on winches and pedestals are probably a good idea for the sleep deprived sailor.

[jb5 1,126]

1 hour ago, southerncross said:

 

Thanks. Great video 

[Boink 661]

5 hours ago, Varan said:

Good find SC. Love their openness. Arrows on winches and pedestals are probably a good idea for the sleep deprived sailor.

Remenber that Much like the AC Boats - not all those winches load Clockwise.

Keeps the loads straighter for the wich mounting and straightens the line run to & from the constrictor clutches they are coming from.

But as you say the arrows would be essential for fatigue and brain fart moments.

[Sailbydate 2,611]

17 hours ago, ctutmark said:

In case these haven't already been posted-

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/video-charlie-dalin-devoile-son-nouveau-bateau-pour-le-vendee-globe-partie-1-2714e358-b76d-11e9-bd23-1ffade3707c2

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/video-charlie-dalin-devoile-son-nouveau-bateau-pour-le-vendee-globe-partie-2-ce5c7880-b793-11e9-bd23-1ffade3707c2?utm_source=neolane_of_newsletter-voilesetvoiliers&mediego_ruuid=a96d210c-1c92-45f6-939c-f9a9a18e8913_4&mediego_campaign=20190807_email_voile-et-voiliers&utm_content=20190807&utm_campaign=of_newsletter-voilesetvoiliers&utm_medium=email&vid=1742016&mediego_euid=1742016

 

Some great glimpses of the boat layout throughout the videos. 

Not to put 'too finer point on it', this foil tip profile on APIVIA strikes me as very slippery but somewhat absurd.

[QBF 527]

7 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Not to put 'too finer point on it', this foil tip profile on APIVIA strikes me as very slippery but somewhat absurd.

That tip looks fragile; SNAP, CRACKLE, and Pop!

[eliboat 287]

15 hours ago, Varan said:

Good find SC. Love their openness. Arrows on winches and pedestals are probably a good idea for the sleep deprived sailor.

A lot of winches on high performance boats turn CCW, so I would say when you have a mix (and you always do when you have CCW winches) I would say arrows are mandatory. 

[Haligonian Winterr 36]

12 hours ago, eliboat said:

A lot of winches on high performance boats turn CCW, so I would say when you have a mix (and you always do when you have CCW winches) I would say arrows are mandatory. 

+1. All boats (even "full pro" TP52s, Comanche etc) that have CCW winches have arrows.

 

HW

[ITA602 40]

9 hours ago, Haligonian Winterr said:

+1. All boats (even "full pro" TP52s, Comanche etc) that have CCW winches have arrows.

 

HW

Yeah, and also arrow stickers on the pedestal for the fast speed direction are more or less always present.

Also the disconnection foot buttons are of different colors.

[Amati 1,428]

On 8/8/2019 at 7:39 AM, QBF said:

That tip looks fragile; SNAP, CRACKLE, and Pop!

Thought it was the prow of a Viking Longship (a bright green one too!) before I expanded the pic....

[Amati 1,428]

On 8/6/2019 at 7:06 PM, terrafirma said:

Gen One foils according to Beyou on Charal. New foils coming however each boat may have slightly different designs. Only 50% of the boats will make it around the world with full foils IMO. They are terrible odds

Might be, but easier on the rig while foils are attached? Aside from crashing at speed, of course...

[Laurent 1,710]

On 8/6/2019 at 9:06 PM, terrafirma said:

Gen One foils according to Beyou on Charal. New foils coming however each boat may have slightly different designs. Only 50% of the boats will make it around the world with full foils IMO. They are terrible odds

Why so pessimistic? There were 7 foilers in the last Vendée Globe. 1 abandoned because of foil failure; one finished second with a broken foil, one abandoned for other reasons. So it was not that bad last time around...So the foils are responsible for one abandon for 7 boats.

 

Banque populaire VIII (Armel Le Cléac'h) – Finished 1st

Hugo Boss (Alex Thomson) – Finished 2^nd with one broken foil

Maître Coq (Jérémie Beyou) – Finished 3^rd

StMichel-Virbac (Jean-Pierre Dick) – Finished 4th

No Way Back (Pieter Heerema) – Finished 17th

Safran II (Morgan Lagravière) – DNF due to rudder failure

Groupe Edmond de Rothschild (Sébastien Josse) – DNF due to foil failure

[Laurent 1,710]

 

[Sailbydate 2,611]

25 minutes ago, Laurent said:

 

Nice vid. I imagine Charlie and his team were pretty amped at APIVIA's launch.

That MACIF Group must have a stratospheric marketing investment in yachting!

[Boink 661]

Looks the mutts nuts. 

All the recent launchings have a hull shape that is so reminiscent of modern One Metre model and to a lesser extent - Marblehead design about them. 

The move away from the Aircraft carrier, Wedge shaped hulls is complete - these are much narrower, more balanced hull shapes that will not adopt the nose down attitude that the beamy types did. Obvious really when you consider that the RM is now foil generated and maintaining AOA on those foils is super critical to unleashing their full potential.

Hugo Boss has pushed well into the Aero corner, which others have been less extreme to adopt. Ultimately this will be faster IF they can learn to sail such an uncomprimising solution. The lack of windows seems counterintuitive - but you can be sure that they have done their homework.

I do not consider HB the favourite, as much as I would want or like to see. The lead up time is probably 4-5months short - but they have made their choices and know what they are doing. Keeping their design hidden until too late for others to change would be a major part of this. 

Any of these new French crop will push so hard - coming from the Figaro, Mini, Class 40 and general Course au Large schools.

Luck will play a significant part - particularly with the amount of debris our oceans are full of. 

Sail development is little discusseed - but Doyle have the wood over North on Downwind sails currently - so bodes well for HB. 8 sails is nothing - consider that Mainsail and Storm Jib are part - that leaves little choice - will any even bother with loose luffed sails anymore - performance and number limitations would suggest for the VG - NO.

Foils and Auto pilots will be the keys to unlocking the package. The narrower beam of the hulls explains why Foil roots are emerging closer to the gunnels - that and the geometry of trying to run the package a little bit more upright - where Rig weight and Aero vectoring will suck away RM as it heels.

VPLP have pushed hard into the "2 Waterplanes - 1 Hull" philosophy - so the hull will run on either set of hul lines - where the immersed rudder is close to vertical - but hardly ever run completely upright. The other designs seem less invested in this. 

You see this on Charal and the New HB (even the Old HB to a lesser extent) - though the concavities around the Rudder Hull plates on HB seem a little bit more pronounced - is this an attempt to keep the stern sucked down and stabilise the AOA on the Foils? They clearly need a completely flat plate to minimise interference drag and have an absolute mimimal gap between rudder blade and hull surface - the resulting dimple may be just an accepted result - but recall the concave sections of ETNZ AC72, and even other F18 catamarans (CirrusR I think) and I believe that concave sections that pull down the stern where foil lift is so critical is still a fruitfall area for development where T rudders are banned.

Which ever way you slice and dice it, the next 18 months will be epic for this class. 

[fdsailor 0]

If he's going to be down below most of the time in a giant black box with nae windows he"ll be cooked in the tropics and seasick everywhere else... 

[jb5 1,126]

7 hours ago, Boink said:

Looks the mutts nuts. 

All the recent launchings have a hull shape that is so reminiscent of modern One Metre model and to a lesser extent - Marblehead design about them. 

The move away from the Aircraft carrier, Wedge shaped hulls is complete - these are much narrower, more balanced hull shapes that will not adopt the nose down attitude that the beamy types did. Obvious really when you consider that the RM is now foil generated and maintaining AOA on those foils is super critical to unleashing their full potential.

Hugo Boss has pushed well into the Aero corner, which others have been less extreme to adopt. Ultimately this will be faster IF they can learn to sail such an uncomprimising solution. The lack of windows seems counterintuitive - but you can be sure that they have done their homework.

I do not consider HB the favourite, as much as I would want or like to see. The lead up time is probably 4-5months short - but they have made their choices and know what they are doing. Keeping their design hidden until too late for others to change would be a major part of this. 

Any of these new French crop will push so hard - coming from the Figaro, Mini, Class 40 and general Course au Large schools.

Luck will play a significant part - particularly with the amount of debris our oceans are full of. 

Sail development is little discusseed - but Doyle have the wood over North on Downwind sails currently - so bodes well for HB. 8 sails is nothing - consider that Mainsail and Storm Jib are part - that leaves little choice - will any even bother with loose luffed sails anymore - performance and number limitations would suggest for the VG - NO.

Foils and Auto pilots will be the keys to unlocking the package. The narrower beam of the hulls explains why Foil roots are emerging closer to the gunnels - that and the geometry of trying to run the package a little bit more upright - where Rig weight and Aero vectoring will suck away RM as it heels.

VPLP have pushed hard into the "2 Waterplanes - 1 Hull" philosophy - so the hull will run on either set of hul lines - where the immersed rudder is close to vertical - but hardly ever run completely upright. The other designs seem less invested in this. 

You see this on Charal and the New HB (even the Old HB to a lesser extent) - though the concavities around the Rudder Hull plates on HB seem a little bit more pronounced - is this an attempt to keep the stern sucked down and stabilise the AOA on the Foils? They clearly need a completely flat plate to minimise interference drag and have an absolute mimimal gap between rudder blade and hull surface - the resulting dimple may be just an accepted result - but recall the concave sections of ETNZ AC72, and even other F18 catamarans (CirrusR I think) and I believe that concave sections that pull down the stern where foil lift is so critical is still a fruitfall area for development where T rudders are banned.

Which ever way you slice and dice it, the next 18 months will be epic for this class. 

Roll on the TJV.  Hopefully with some testing Bay of B weather.

[jb5 1,126]

 

[Laurent 1,710]

^^^^^^ For those who do not understand French...

And yes, I tried the automatic English translation caption from Youtube, but, really garbage....

They reached 23 knots on the first sea trial, without pushing it. They went to the Fastnet Race after only 3 days of sea trials. They reached 32 knots during the race. But they got a hydraulic leak on the canting keel cylinder which fried all the electronics; no auto-pilot, no GPS, so they decided to DNF the Fastnet Race, but overall, they are on time and claim that the boat is really performing well in all conditions, upwind, downwind, light and heavy winds...

 

[3to1 488]

nice to hear that, I'll probably be rooting for that boat.

[Floating Duck 115]

2 hours ago, Laurent said:

^^^^^^ For those who do not understand French...

I couldn't understand a single thing and I loved it, those are some very pretty moving pictures of the boat. Damn.

[Sailbydate 2,611]

Sebastien with some pretty intense training going on aboard the old PRB too. Check this rollercoaster ride out: 5:54

 

[hump101 364]

Not the new Boss, but a nice vid of the last one with some shots of the foils working hard. Apologies if it is already linked elsewhere:

 

[jb5 1,126]

Credit: Apivia Sailing

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/08/imoca-apivia-charlie-dalin-monocoque-port-la-foret-navigation-foil.html?m=1#.XVHQpGkpC7o

[jb5 1,126]

 

[jb5 1,126]

Still a beautiful boat. 

[mad 3,853]

1 hour ago, hump101 said:

Not the new Boss, but a nice vid of the last one with some shots of the foils working hard. Apologies if it is already linked elsewhere:

 

Thanks, hadn’t seen that before. 

Smart marketing to do the a YouTube collaboration deal with another foiling/sailing market, it’s probably gets better publicity that way than many others.  Explains what they’re so busy doing on times between races, do any of the others have the same marketing regime!!?  Got to difficult to find time for mods, trialling sails, race prep etc.    Is there a new marketing team at Hugo Boss determined to get the marketing budget back? 

[jb5 1,126]

https://www.scanvoile.com/2019/08/le-defi-azimut-9eme-edition-devoile-ses.html#.XVKmvK3YphE

Azimut Challenge in Lorient Sept 18-22

https://www.defi-azimut.net/

23 IMOCA lined up including Apivia, Charal and Arkea.Paprec.

[southerncross 3,901]

 

[Foolish 198]

Great interview about Charal on the front page.  A few key points

The foils smooths out the bumps in rough water, until you slam down after a jump.  (This is what I was told about the DSS five years ago.)

The autopilot steers better than the skipper. (something that singlehanders know, but others don't)

Spending 80% of the time in the cockpit, trimming.  (I'd say that this is a big change from the older boats, where the skipper stayed below much of the time.)  I remember when I interviewed a skipper about this very issue, he mentioned that a Vendee Globe skipper couldn't trim constantly because the lines couldn't take it, unlike a Volvo boat where they  replace the lines at every stop.  I wonder if the lines are better, or if they are just going to be very careful in managing wear.

I find the new and different foil shapes very interesting.  They are looking more and more like the DSS, with a long horizontal portion, and less like the dali mustache from the last generation and certainly not at all like the fumanchu of the Figaro 3. 

All the skippers are mentioning the narrow hulls.  This is standard, where the foil effectively widens the hull.   I think it is the difference from the earlier generation where they simply attached a foil to an existing design, whereas the new boats are now designed around the foil (as the skipper mentioned.)

Very interesting to watch all the new developments.

[jb5 1,126]

13 minutes ago, Foolish said:

Great interview about Charal on the front page.  A few key points

The foils smooths out the bumps in rough water, until you slam down after a jump.  (This is what I was told about the DSS five years ago.)

The autopilot steers better than the skipper. (something that singlehanders know, but others don't)

Spending 80% of the time in the cockpit, trimming.  (I'd say that this is a big change from the older boats, where the skipper stayed below much of the time.)  I remember when I interviewed a skipper about this very issue, he mentioned that a Vendee Globe skipper couldn't trim constantly because the lines couldn't take it, unlike a Volvo boat where they  replace the lines at every stop.  I wonder if the lines are better, or if they are just going to be very careful in managing wear.

I find the new and different foil shapes very interesting.  They are looking more and more like the DSS, with a long horizontal portion, and less like the dali mustache from the last generation and certainly not at all like the fumanchu of the Figaro 3. 

All the skippers are mentioning the narrow hulls.  This is standard, where the foil effectively widens the hull.   I think it is the difference from the earlier generation where they simply attached a foil to an existing design, whereas the new boats are now designed around the foil (as the skipper mentioned.)

Very interesting to watch all the new developments.

and as usual the front page is way late.  that was posted here last Wednesday #3219 by southerncross. 

[ALL@SEA 259]

https://www.facebook.com/ApiviaVoile/videos/2274830926100593/?t=12

Video of Apivia

[jb5 1,126]

14 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

https://www.facebook.com/ApiviaVoile/videos/2274830926100593/?t=12

Video of Apivia

NICE! Looks the business.

[terrafirma 1,079]

Apivia and Arkea both look the goods so far in the short video footage of both however it looked like Apivia was foiling easier, although that's just a guess. Early days obviously with the foils being version 1. Can't wait to see the Boss sailing. 

[Boink 661]

19 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

https://www.facebook.com/ApiviaVoile/videos/2274830926100593/?t=12

Video of Apivia

Nice Find

Interesting to look at the Hull lines at 0.38 seconds - showing full length chine which has a secondary chine above it the for the run to the stern.

Also interesting to watch the segment at 0.53 where the boat accelerates and lifts - watch how the bow wave moves quickly backwards til she sits with the bow wave coming out from around foil/mast and she is skimming on the rear half of Flat yet V'ed hull sections.

This is completely contrary to the Charal Lurch that was widely shown back around Easter time.

Although Charal got more airbourne - it was clearly not sustainable - and the Lurch (or splash) back down looked slow, energy sapping, boat breaking and probably fatigue inducing.

It will be interesting to see longer unedited runs to assess better the modes they are chasing - but certainly for such a new boat this looks good.

[Sailbydate 2,611]

10 hours ago, Boink said:

Nice Find

Interesting to look at the Hull lines at 0.38 seconds - showing full length chine which has a secondary chine above it the for the run to the stern.

Also interesting to watch the segment at 0.53 where the boat accelerates and lifts - watch how the bow wave moves quickly backwards til she sits with the bow wave coming out from around foil/mast and she is skimming on the rear half of Flat yet V'ed hull sections.

This is completely contrary to the Charal Lurch that was widely shown back around Easter time.

Although Charal got more airbourne - it was clearly not sustainable - and the Lurch (or splash) back down looked slow, energy sapping, boat breaking and probably fatigue inducing.

It will be interesting to see longer unedited runs to assess better the modes they are chasing - but certainly for such a new boat this looks good.

Certainly some sustained, steady flight there, but the sea state is almost flat too. But looks impressive.

[SSolo 151]

ATR video of HB launch is on their FB page

you can see that the 'skylights' in the cockpit  that should allow great view of the sails without not getting beaten to death by walls of water coming over the deck. Remember these are seriously wet boats and getting hit with waves at 20+ knots hurts! (personal experience) so crew protection is essential,

An interesting little known fact is ATR in house designer Peter Hobson responsible for the new HB,  worked with Charlie Darlin at BoatSpeed in Oz on the Oman tri build
My money is that Peter has got his numbers right and the new HB may well be a total game changer

[jb5 1,126]

9 minutes ago, SSolo said:

ATR video of HB launch is on their FB page

you can see that the 'skylights' in the cockpit  that should allow great view of the sails without not getting beaten to death by walls of water coming over the deck. Remember these are seriously wet boats and getting hit with waves at 20+ knots hurts! (personal experience) so crew protection is essential,

An interesting little known fact is ATR in house designer Peter Hobson responsible for the new HB,  worked with Charlie Darlin at BoatSpeed in Oz on the Oman tri build
My money is that Peter has got his numbers right and the new HB may well be a total game changer

Are you referring to Oman Air Majan?  You do know what happened to that boat right?  Look up the 2010 RDR.

Also the new HB is fundamentally a VLVP.  They have their own internal designers as do all the top teams but the boat is a VLVP.

There are several threads under Ocean Racing where IMOCA is more closely covered.

[Bruno 119]

When you don't plan on visiting the deck often? When the ITCZ comes with AC,?

[mad 3,853]

6 hours ago, jb5 said:

Are you referring to Oman Air Majan?  You do know what happened to that boat right?  Look up the 2010 RDR.

Also the new HB is fundamentally a VLVP.  They have their own internal designers as do all the top teams but the boat is a VLVP.

There are several threads under Ocean Racing where IMOCA is more closely covered.

Not exactly the first or last multihull to have structural issues, what’s your point?

[jb5 1,126]

1 hour ago, mad said:

Not exactly the first or last multihull to have structural issues, what’s your point?

Monohulls too, but not a great example to associate with a new boat. Hopefully this one holds up a whole lot better. Wonder what Sidney is doing these days. 

[SSolo 151]

On 8/20/2019 at 2:06 PM, jb5 said:

Are you referring to Oman Air Majan?  You do know what happened to that boat right?  Look up the 2010 RDR.

Also the new HB is fundamentally a VLVP.  They have their own internal designers as do all the top teams but the boat is a VLVP.

There are several threads under Ocean Racing where IMOCA is more closely covered.

yes i do know what happened to Oman tri, a structural failure in the beam, which may well still be in legal dispute

Peter Hobson is responsible for everything above the waterline, shape, layout inc foils - he has very much led the design working with VPLP.  The ATR PR clearly states this

 

[Sailbydate 2,611]

Interesting that that launch video seems to have been taken down. Or is it just me?

[southerncross 3,901]

 

[southerncross 3,901]

[GBH 84]

Ok how about this scenario - off across Biscay and down the Portugoose coast, and threading your way through the assorted fishing fleets, and here's the HB skipper in his slippers and on his playstation down below hoping they all have AIS turned on.  Which they often don't. Or lights.  How's that going to work out for the times when you damn well have to be on deck to see whats going on and reacting to the situations?  Done that enough times in the past on quick boats to know that it can be just a bit stressful.  A few portholes sure don't make the grade for vis when you need full 180 degree awareness.  Be interesting to see what solutions they come up with.

[Miffy 2,140]

30 minutes ago, GBH said:

Ok how about this scenario - off across Biscay and down the Portugoose coast, and threading your way through the assorted fishing fleets, and here's the HB skipper in his slippers and on his playstation down below hoping they all have AIS turned on.  Which they often don't. Or lights.  How's that going to work out for the times when you damn well have to be on deck to see whats going on and reacting to the situations?  Done that enough times in the past on quick boats to know that it can be just a bit stressful.  A few portholes sure don't make the grade for vis when you need full 180 degree awareness.  Be interesting to see what solutions they come up with.

Flir has much better visibility than mark 1 eyeballs. 

 

[GBH 84]

55 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Flir has much better visibility than mark 1 eyeballs. 

 

fair enough, but I regard that as an aid and not a primary, and hate to rely on electronics totally in a challenging marine environment

[Miffy 2,140]

In offshore solosailing - watch keeping is basically done by AIS and steering basically autopilot. And in VG, watermakers.  It relies on electronics in a challenging marine environment.

[Sailbydate 2,611]

7 hours ago, GBH said:

Ok how about this scenario - off across Biscay and down the Portugoose coast, and threading your way through the assorted fishing fleets, and here's the HB skipper in his slippers and on his playstation down below hoping they all have AIS turned on.  Which they often don't. Or lights.  How's that going to work out for the times when you damn well have to be on deck to see whats going on and reacting to the situations?  Done that enough times in the past on quick boats to know that it can be just a bit stressful.  A few portholes sure don't make the grade for vis when you need full 180 degree awareness.  Be interesting to see what solutions they come up with.

Fluro-Pink Crocs, rather than slippers I think GBH.  :-)

[Bruno 119]

Personally, hey get off my lawn!, when the electrics crap out and the shit hits the fan, I'm ondeck, hand steering and trimming, would prefer not to be getting a waterpark in the chest every 2 minutes. But that's just me.

[kdock44 7]

1 hour ago, Bruno said:

Personally, hey get off my lawn!, when the electrics crap out and the shit hits the fan, I'm ondeck, hand steering and trimming, would prefer not to be getting a waterpark in the chest every 2 minutes. But that's just me.

these boats electronics seem to crap out altogether far far less often then others i've ever worked on

[russell_2878 14]

[JonRowe 733]

The C foils are not so C then!

[ctutmark 236]

 

[Bruno 119]

16 hours ago, kdock44 said:

these boats electronics seem to crap out altogether far far less often then others i've ever worked on

Glad to know they work most of the time.

[Boink 661]

^^^^^^^

Thanks for that insightful commentary.........

[Bruno 119]

Horses for courses.

[Boink 661]

^^^^^^

That comment of mine was not at you Bruno.

There was a post by Varan (? - maybe - not 100%) about how the boat looked slow in a photo. But no explanation. Post now deleted. Go figure...

[Varan 1,940]

Yep, that was me, and definitely not very insightful so I tried to do the right thing by deleting it. Sorry for the confusion. 

 

Edit... fairly flat water, probably not much wind, but a lot of wake in the Hugo photo. Contrast that with the Riou video in more wind. So looking forward to seeing these things line up together. 

[huey 2 618]

[huey 2 618]

[Boink 661]

Thanks Huey.

The first photo of #3279 nicely shows the hull lines - imagine it running with that whole surface from centreline to chine being the "actual" horizontal plane.

Interesting to see the Foam Carbon Stringers embedded in the honeycombs - I am guessing that this is to replace the U-shaped ribs that were secondarily bonded to the monolithic shells - these became prevalent after that last generation got rebuilt - following the less than stellar debuts that the new generation of the last cycle had in the stormy TJV race - I recall all the new boats had monocque failures to a greater or lesser extent. 

Also of interest is that Honeycomb is back - where previously PVC foams and Monolithic hulls were seen as the solution to slamming that the new foiler boats were suffering. Got to have faith, that all those honeycomb cells have bonded fully with the inner and outer skins. Its not like Carrington doesn't have just a little bit of boat building experience.

Now who wants to pop a second hull out of those exquisite moulds? (Probably not available til next spring - to avoid any competition......)

[17mika 169]

 

Question from an ignorant 

But what should be the function of the foam part? Use for higher slam areas? Or basically since it seem to have carbon walls it should act as a local stffener for the whole platform (stinger, as you called it?) So it basically works as a sandwich also transversally and not only in the classic direction?

Thanks michele

[mad 3,853]

1 hour ago, Boink said:

Thanks Huey.

The first photo of #3279 nicely shows the hull lines - imagine it running with that whole surface from centreline to chine being the "actual" horizontal plane.

Interesting to see the Foam Carbon Stringers embedded in the honeycombs - I am guessing that this is to replace the U-shaped ribs that were secondarily bonded to the monolithic shells - these became prevalent after that last generation got rebuilt - following the less than stellar debuts that the new generation of the last cycle had in the stormy TJV race - I recall all the new boats had monocque failures to a greater or lesser extent. 

Also of interest is that Honeycomb is back - where previously PVC foams and Monolithic hulls were seen as the solution to slamming that the new foiler boats were suffering. Got to have faith, that all those honeycomb cells have bonded fully with the inner and outer skins. Its not like Carrington doesn't have just a little bit of boat building experience.

Now who wants to pop a second hull out of those exquisite moulds? (Probably not available til next spring - to avoid any competition......)

I can’t see any carbon on those foam  core strips. 

[Chimp too 308]

It is common practice to use a foam strip along chimes where there is a natural nomex joint. You can’t get the load path lined up in the cell walls, so foam works best as a border.

also, nomex has been used in the aft sections in the last generation as well with the monolithic stringer solution only being used forwards. 

So nothing new. Nice tools though, look like they are Persico made and shipped over.

[mad 3,853]

5 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

It is common practice to use a foam strip along chimes where there is a natural nomex joint. You can’t get the load path lined up in the cell walls, so foam works best as a border.

also, nomex has been used in the aft sections in the last generation as well with the monolithic stringer solution only being used forwards. 

So nothing new. Nice tools though, look like they are Persico made and shipped over.

Makes sense, it also looks like a transition from one nomex core to another in that shot. 

Tooling does look good, is that a double Vac seal in one of mould flanges??

[jb5 1,126]

3 hours ago, Boink said:

Thanks Huey.

The first photo of #3279 nicely shows the hull lines - imagine it running with that whole surface from centreline to chine being the "actual" horizontal plane.

Interesting to see the Foam Carbon Stringers embedded in the honeycombs - I am guessing that this is to replace the U-shaped ribs that were secondarily bonded to the monolithic shells - these became prevalent after that last generation got rebuilt - following the less than stellar debuts that the new generation of the last cycle had in the stormy TJV race - I recall all the new boats had monocque failures to a greater or lesser extent. 

Also of interest is that Honeycomb is back - where previously PVC foams and Monolithic hulls were seen as the solution to slamming that the new foiler boats were suffering. Got to have faith, that all those honeycomb cells have bonded fully with the inner and outer skins. Its not like Carrington doesn't have just a little bit of boat building experience.

Now who wants to pop a second hull out of those exquisite moulds? (Probably not available til next spring - to avoid any competition......)

Tip & Shaft published the following summary of the 2015 TJV carnage for those who don't know or don't remember.  All the then new first time foilers were making their first race.

HB was almost lost, abandoned and recovered.  Pretty amazing recovery to get it all back together in time for the NY-Vendee the following summer followed soon after by the VG.

BP was the only foiler to finish the TJV but story at the time was that basically everything inside was broken.

Google translation.

The saga of the Transat Jacques Vabre 4/4
2015 CRASH-TEST FOR FOILERS
[SPONSORED ARTICLE]

 October 25, 2015: 20 Imoca monohulls take the start of the twelfth Transat Jacques Vabre - a record, which will be beaten on the 2019 edition with 34 duos registered! Among them, five plans VPLP-Verdier equipped with foils, then the great technological innovation for the 60 feet. Brand new, they came out of construction between March 5 for the first (Safran) and September 12 for the last (St Michel-Virbac). If the weather is mild for the exit of Channel, forecasts, once reached the tip of Brittany, announce heavy weather. The choice will be between spinning to the west to seek a northwest wind shift, at the risk of a violent front, or play the map of wisdom down south.
 
On board Edmond de Rothschild, Sébastien Josse and Charles Caudrelier opt for Western strategy. "The conditions were involved because it was necessary to go around a depression in the north reaching, a pattern very rare with the sea in the opposite direction of the wind, it was very demanding entry for boats, remembers Sébastien Josse. We had never sailed at these speeds with the foils, at each wave, it was a springboard. The trouble is not long in arriving: "We first have an outrigger pulling off, then the cups of the mast, which allow the mast to remain fixed on the ball, jumped, we have quickly made the decision to turn around, "continues the Niçois who throws in the towel after 24 hours of racing.
 
At the same time, Morgan Lagravière and Nicolas Lunven, who had chosen the same option on Safran, lament a much more serious damage, that the first is not about to forget: "Nico was watching inside the boat when a quilting bag was unhooked. He will get it back and then hear a little sound of water in the hold of sails, we realize that there are hundreds of liters of water and that it starts to be a big carnage: there is a crack on the side of the boat. The structural damage in the foil area caused the collapse of the house of cards. We decide to go back, with a sword of Damocles over the head, I remember having Guillaume Verdier on the phone regularly to be sure that we would arrive whole, because the extent of the damage was pretty colossal. Arrived in Brest on Tuesday 27, the duo will not leave.
 
These structural problems will affect two new Imoca new in the following days, Hugo Boss and St Michel-Virbac: the first, because of a succession of collateral damage, eventually capsize and disintegrate, which leads to the hoist of Alex Thomson and Guillermo Altadill. Aboard the second, Fabien Delahaye, co-skipper of Jean-Pierre Dick says: "From the first day, we learn that Gitana and Safran turn around, especially for problems of crack and waterway, it does not do not reassure us too much. We decide to get off even more, we manage to pass the first depressions, but in the last front before the trade winds, the boat accelerates to more than 30 knots, ricochets on three waves, and all of a sudden, we hear a big creak inside, we had a whole area with the smooth (structural reinforcements) completely unstuck, the hull bottom was reduced to a carbon sheet vulnerable to waves and cracks. The two men stop in Madeira where the technical team waiting for them finds a crack in the hull caused by the impact of the waves, they throw the sponge in turn ...
 
Three abandoned because of significant structural damage, one for a succession of damage and a single foiler, Banque Populaire VIII, on arrival (Armel Le Cléac'h and Erwan Tabarly, second behind Vincent Riou and Sébastien Col on PRB, launched in 2010): the case makes a big noise, architects and calculators are blamed. "It squeaked everywhere, remembers Vincent Lauriot-Prévost, whose cabinet VPLP drew, with Guillaume Verdier, the five new Imoca foils. Yann Eliès on arrival in Brazil had stuck a bonnet. Often, the test benches of boats, it is the races, and inevitably, it is more mediatised. However, he acknowledges: "In front of the recurring side of the damage, it was concluded that the structure was a little weak and a little ambitious with transverse rails every 20 centimeters. We had taken the risk because there were 80 kilos to win, on reflection, this risk was not to take. "

"The vertical impact on the hull was a bit of a novelty," says Sébastien Josse. Before the arrival of the foils, the underside of the hull did not hit as much and not at the same place. "These accidents in series will lead all teams to strengthen the hull fund:" We added between 40 and 80 pounds of structure on boats to double the allowable expenses, "says Vincent Lauriot-Prevost. The architect, when asked if these problems are definitely solved, answers: "Today, the foilers are always more upset, the impacts are even more behind, so it is recommended to strengthen in these areas. the. Especially on the boats released this year, because they are even more soliciting. "

[Photo Jean-Marie Liot / DPPI]

 

[JL92S 189]

It will be interesting to see how the old Hugo Boss goes with Charlie Enright and Mark Towill and also a full set of North Sails

[Fastrak 48]

Spotted last Sunday just SW of Bembridge Ledge whilst racing backfrom Cherbourg, the new Hugo Boss definitely foiling.

[ALL@SEA 259]

Any insights into the motion?