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I would still take inspiration from the more modern designs, as good as some of them are, I would only have the bow rounded on the lower half of the bulb, and sharp above the widest point to promote slicing... Good luck though, the C2 we sail against seems to have really really nice flow over the bow when the bows go down and really pop back up, I suspect a full bulb would not be the same... (as you want speed with this machine! not maximum cruising volume for size like the bulbed cruisers...)

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Locks cat Deguello in Hobart is under contract and so is the other 150 What's Up Doc in the US. Doc was for sale for a couple of years I think.

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I found this bow extension on the Kurt Hughes Blog. Wonder if it would just and more weight than buoyancy in my situation? Perhaps I could have it lower in the water a bit and have it fair into the hull bottom for a longer distance reducing the rocker at the front a little more?

 

I like the idea of leaving the original hull there for stuctural reasons. I assume the extensions then can be made very light as damage would not flood the hull.

 

IMG_4027_131003_134852_2.JPG

 

http://www.lymanmorse.com/boats/pipeline-3-kurt-hughes-165

 

PS Tony I have all your chart software and hardware!

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Also I have a vid of the worst hailstorm to hit Brisbane in 30 years (apparently).

 

Make sure to watch in high res and full screen.

 

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You might just have to stretch the bows a bit more and make them a little fatter, might be worth consulting someone with more experience before moving forward, at the same time, you don't want the bow portion filling with water too... as it would be hard to inspect!

 

BTW, this from a few years ago, the tornado nationals in Perth, filmed by Brett Burvill

 

That storm did over a billion dollars of damage in Perth, the greatest storm to ever hit the state! (Wrecked my boat, car and work too)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Western_Australian_storms

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That would have been dangerous being outside. I hope no one was hurt.

 

My big haul out will not be for a year or more so I hope to have a decent idea on what to do by then. Threads like this are good to get ideas from people with more experience :) I wont go ahead with anything until I am fairly certain on what I am going to do, and that it will work.

 

I may even use the lines plans you gave me and make a model hull first to try ideas out on. Were the lines plans you gave me for 226A or 226B?

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To my best knowledge 226B... But I would have to have a very close look, or just import them to CAD and model it when I have the time, as it was some time ago...

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Bit of an update. We have just ordered new sails from Gary Saxby. Cruising laminate all around.

 

Square top main 60+m2. The old one is 60m2 so we should get a bit more with the square top. It will have an economical easy connect headboard system for the top batten.

Genoa 40m2. The design drawings show a 27m2 jib or a 40m2 genoa, we had about 33m2. Gary recommended the big one.

Screecher 80m2 with profurl nex 5 on a 2m adjustable prodder.

 

I gave up on fitting lithium batteries. Since buying this boat over a year ago the price has almost DOUBLED rather than reducing like I thought it would. I'm a bit disappointed that I had to buy more lead as my battery bank now weighs over 170kg.

 

My plans at this stage are to do the sails and rigging and attend to other seaworthy matters then go cruising to asia where I can then paint the boat. Any suggestions for some where to do this would be cool.

 

Should have some more pics in the next month or so of the new sails. :)

 

 

Sail plan 2.bmp

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Not sure, but I wrote the prices down in a spreadsheet when I first got the boat, then updated it 6 months later then now. Each time the price went up considerably. Our dollar went down, but that alone can not account for it.

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Simple. Falling Aussie $$

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We have lost about 25% against the Chinese Yuan from when I entered the lithium battery prices from EV works into my spread sheet until today. But the batteries I wanted are about 50% more expensive now. I thought we might loose a bit in the exchange rate but I thought that these batteries would come down in price which would still make them cheaper or at worst mean the price remained close. The 4X700ah cells cost $3400 then and $5050 now.

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Perhaps when the Tesla guy Elon Musk gets his factory up to speed the prices will come down, I suspect the market is being gouged until then.

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New main and genoa are on. Screecher to come for sailing this weekend.

 

Anyone want to come out for small trip around Moreton bay from this Friday arvo until Sunday evening? Nikki has to work and I want to dial everything in before we go for a 2 week trip the weekend after. Just bring food and beer.

 

Pics are sailing downwind in about 12K true wind.

 

 

 

 

 

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I have also removed my escape hatch from under the floor of the front of the bridge deck. Now I have a spare hatch to use elsewhere. The main point was this was not seaworthy. The hatch was not strong enough to withstand pounding and the plastic flexed enough to pop open resulting in a wet front birth. I will replace it with solid plywood with studs embedded with epoxy, and wingnuts from inside. That way in the unlikely even of a capsize the wingnuts can be undone and the board popped out. This will be strong enough to take pounding waves.

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What sort of hatch was the original escape? We had ours entirely underwater as we pounded uphill the other day, no leaks. I am a pretty big fan of opening hatches for ventilation at anchor

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Dennis, just a minor detail, make your replacement hatch out of composite not ply, if water gets in it and it swells it will be difficult to remove when you really need it, small chance maybe but at that point you want everything working for you 100%

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I need it made by this weekend and I have no time to do anything other than ply. :( It will be sheathed in glass, and I will open it every now and then to test it. Hatch was a gebo. Its mounted under the mattress, then under a foam glass cut out (there is a 150mm void between the mattress and the underside of the bridge deck). So opening it is a PITA for ventilation anyway. If it were mounted on the hull sides like usual water would kind of slide past it. The underside of the front of the bridge deck means seas smash into it rather than slide past it. It was a shit idea to put it there.

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Darth Reapius;

I just noticed your hail storm vid. You still see cars around pockmarked by that storm, another casualty was the Black Cockatoos in Kings Park, the hail just knocked them out of the trees dead, many died.

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Darth Reapius;

I just noticed your hail storm vid. You still see cars around pockmarked by that storm, another casualty was the Black Cockatoos in Kings Park, the hail just knocked them out of the trees dead, many died.

 

It was a sad day, my boat was totalled, car was totalled, work was flooded 3 foot deep a couple of the younger people at work have those cars! Perfectly good cars with just dented bodies.

I didn't hear about the birds though, that's awful :/

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Ahh right, that is a shitful spot.

Are you coming north on the trip?

 

Just testing the screecher in the bay. Then the following week heading up north. Not too far though. Just Fraser for now, but we will see.

 

The epoxy is setting on my escape hatch. I just bedded 6 x 10mm bolts into the 15mm marine ply board so the heads are flush inside the board (the threads will stick out and be fastened from inside with wingnuts). 6 bolts should do, the board is stiff. I just scalloped the board out around the heads of the bolts and put some triax over the heads. That way top face of the hex head also adds to strength and prevents water intrusion. I am not going to glass the whole board. I think its overkill. It will be about 4 times stronger than hatch that was there and an easy inspection point.

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Rob Denny is always talking about sacrificial and demountable foam nose pieces for the main hulls of his Proas. Could something like that give you an inexpensive solution? Might even allow you to modify your shapes if desired.

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I just filled up full with fuel and water and she looks much lighter...

 

From the back :P Sterns are up, bow is down... With the squaretop, when a gust hits, you can really feel the leeward bow push down.

 

I have access to a 3D laser scanner and a CnC mill. But the mill only does sheets about 2m x 50mm. Plan was to make a 3D image of the front of a hull, then cut out a shitload of high density extruded polystyrene sections to fit the old hulls and form a shape to the new desired hullform which will be a reverse bow adding 900mm of waterline (come on guys, fashion aside this shape is clearly the easiest, cheapest and lightest form to get the buoyancy where I want it). The 50mm thick pieces will be epoxied together and stuck to the hulls. Every 15 peices or so (300mm) there will be a 5mm ply section between them just to add some strength and to form a positive anchor point for the laminate which will be infused on. I dont think this will weigh much more than 100kg.

 

Anyway thats my hairbrain idea for now. There is probably an easier option than that. I'm not keen on disturbing the existing structure.

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I think the ply "bulkheads" are pointless and will make fairing the foam a pain in the arse.

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Hi Dennisail, just read through your thread. She looked good in the sailing vid. Congrats. My recommendation for your sails is Hydranet.Good compromise between cruising and racing and its not a laminated sail so won't crack and delaminate on the folds. Jason Gard used it on Spirit, 44' ex formula 40 Tri and has done well racing and cruising. So 12 months or so has passed, whats happened and where are you. Cheers.

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I will reply to other posts soon. Just came here to post sail porn. Laminate sails were chosen as the cheapest option with best performance. Sure they don't last but if I still have the boat in 6 years, I chose the right boat. I have to say I am sick of fixing new broken shit will I should be fixing old broken shit I already new about.

 

Stripped the alloy hub out of one of my Volvo props. What a bunch of idiots to make the hubs out of a material that acts as an anode when connected to 3 different types of metal. I new that was on the cards though. I already paid $450 to have on alloy hub insert changed. Never again. I should have sold those things when I had the chance to buy used flexofolds.

 

On the plus side sails looks awesome. Faster than wind speed now.

 

Nikki will be catching a bus home from Gladstone on Monday and I will need to sail back before the 14th. So I prefer not to single hand with one engine not going if anyone wants to come on a cruise.

 

 

 

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We are just calling it a screecher. All sails are Dimension Polyant laminates. The pole is a bitch of a thing to handle. I went for a decent angle on the pole as I think its unseaworthy in a cruising boat to have it too horizontal. The issue is the track on the front of the beam is right on the front so that the forces are acting downward on it a little. So the track is ripping out, so I need to address that. Its just damn hard to fold the pole back in and out when connecting and disconnecting the screecher. The slider does not seem to fit right either and binds to the track. Anchoring is also a bitch when using the bridal. Very hard to connect the bridal up, and in some conditions it fouls the prodder stays.

 

All worth it though. Heaps of power from the sail. Did anyone notice the missing meter from the top of the sail? Seems it was cut too short?

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We are just calling it a screecher. All sails are Dimension Polyant laminates. The pole is a bitch of a thing to handle. I went for a decent angle on the pole as I think its unseaworthy in a cruising boat to have it too horizontal. The issue is the track on the front of the beam is right on the front so that the forces are acting downward on it a little. So the track is ripping out, so I need to address that. Its just damn hard to fold the pole back in and out when connecting and disconnecting the screecher. The slider does not seem to fit right either and binds to the track. Anchoring is also a bitch when using the bridal. Very hard to connect the bridal up, and in some conditions it fouls the prodder stays.

 

All worth it though. Heaps of power from the sail. Did anyone notice the missing meter from the top of the sail? Seems it was cut too short?

Dennis - Hard to answer without more information but I have dealt with what might be a similar system. Not sure what the track (for inboard end of the sprit... to move it in which direction athwartship or fore and aft??) does. I am guessing fore and aft as the geometry would not appear to allow the sprit to fold without the inboard end coming aft first. Either way, depending on how that sprit attachment is designed/constructed if you are placing any weight on the sprit while the its folded out (extended) to attached the screecher, you would be ripping the inboard attachment point out of the deck as you state. Even just the weight of some of the sail and the furler on it, prior to the sail being hoisted would create that issue. Guessing all of this is obvious to you. Some suggestions that might help:

 

* Run anchor bridle inside the sprit stays and make the bridle shorter (or make longer and go outside but I found inside and shorter bridle worked better).

* Ensure the tip end of the sprit is always supported (well tensioned halyard) when its deployed/extended/folded out.

* Rig the sprit to always be deployed and use a tack line to haul the furler to the end of the sprit.

 

Added benefit of this last point is you can adjust the sail on the luff for different conditions. Fully hoisted halyard and eased tack for upwind work (you would have better sheeting angle and slot) and fully tensioned tack and eased halyard for downwind (easing the sail forward).

 

Sorry but hard to be helpful without better understanding the system and its constraints.

 

Goods luck. Interesting boat.

 

Wess

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The boat seems to be floating nicely now I have just about run out of water and only have half a tank of fuel left. The waterline is just about level now and the prodder stays are about level the the sea surface, I still need to move them up. The 10mm dynex splices look like they cause a shitload of drag through the water. Plus I am a little scared of having stainless fittings underwater that hold something as expensive as my screecher setup. I will do that when I do whatever it is that I am going to do to the bows.

 

I looked at my anchor chain (10mm) setup more closely. I found about 20m of rusted crap (not connected) at the bottom. Its at the bottom of the sea now. Then I counted what I had connected which was about 82m. I had previously seen a rusty link. I looked more closely and the link looked very dangerous. So I chopped it with bolt cutters and it was 90% rust. I guess someone had the chain lengthened somehow? So anyway, now I have 45m or chain only, 20 is on the sea bottom and the remaining 37m is sitting in the back of the GFs car on its way to Brisbane while I go fishing at Tin Can Bay and hopefully paragliding at Rainbow beach :D That chain must have weighed about 70kg or so from up the front.

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Just saw your post Wess. Thanks and I will post pics soon. The track runs along the beam athwart-ships from just over the centerline to the sbd side. So you slide the bottom of the prodder to the sbd side then the end folds to port. It has a beak which disconnects, but you obviously need to drop the halyard a fair bit or fold it to disconnect it. But then its still connected by the waterstays.

 

I would love to run the bridal (1.5 times beam) under the stays, but they are very low it would never work. But if I raise them and move them forward (if I ever do the bow extension) it would work. I have to go over the top now which usually works, but wind against current or when stern anchoring there can be contact.

 

Interesting idea on the tack line. Do you mean the furler would be free floating and be able to be positioned and used anywhere along the length of the prodder? I have a good meter of spare halyard with the screecher up (as you can see in the pics) so I could do something like this. Loads would be quite large though. Do you have a pic of this setup?

 

I done the damage when I tried to go to hard to windward with it. I tensioned the shit out of the halyard and sheeted in pretty hard. I lashed the inboard prodder end securely with spectra and was able to keep using it. The track and slider alone are not strong enough as they are but with some extra binding its OK.

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How about running the foam the other way, and using s piece of higher density foam if you need more stability

 

The way I had planned was to make use of the equipment I have access too. A CnC router that only does up to 100mm.

 

I think the ply "bulkheads" are pointless and will make fairing the foam a pain in the arse.

 

I guess with the foam also cut by a CnC router they will be "fair enough". But I planned to use XPS which every boat builder and designer on boatdesign.net says has zero structural strength. One longtidudinal ply board would probably do.

 

This idea is well in the brainstorming phase anyway. I am up for contemplating any idea.

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Just saw your post Wess. Thanks and I will post pics soon. The track runs along the beam athwart-ships from just over the centerline to the sbd side. So you slide the bottom of the prodder to the sbd side then the end folds to port. It has a beak which disconnects, but you obviously need to drop the halyard a fair bit or fold it to disconnect it. But then its still connected by the waterstays.

 

I would love to run the bridal (1.5 times beam) under the stays, but they are very low it would never work. But if I raise them and move them forward (if I ever do the bow extension) it would work. I have to go over the top now which usually works, but wind against current or when stern anchoring there can be contact.

 

Interesting idea on the tack line. Do you mean the furler would be free floating and be able to be positioned and used anywhere along the length of the prodder? I have a good meter of spare halyard with the screecher up (as you can see in the pics) so I could do something like this. Loads would be quite large though. Do you have a pic of this setup?

 

I done the damage when I tried to go to hard to windward with it. I tensioned the shit out of the halyard and sheeted in pretty hard. I lashed the inboard prodder end securely with spectra and was able to keep using it. The track and slider alone are not strong enough as they are but with some extra binding its OK.

OK, that sounds fun (attachment for the sprit). Could not tell because it was not in your hail storm video which showed the foredeck lay out. That also shows why you have issues with the anchor bridle. I gather you are running the bridle from the bow chocks outside both sprit stays to the chain. I can see where that would be a PITA to rig and would always cause chafe issues and worse. We had something with similar geometry challenges. Look at your video at exactly 2:24. We had good structure right about where the end of your scrub-brush handle is and installed a cleat and chock there and led the bridle under the beam at about the angle your scrub-brush lies. The bridle would then be inside the stays and if you think of the geometry when the boat swings off the wind, the tensioned side of the bridle should not be an issue. Hard to describe but it lived there always (including when not in use) and worked well.

 

On the sprit track ripping out I don't really have any good suggestion. Its one thing to fly a chute from that sprit, but as soon as you want to rig a screecher which need tons more halyard/luff tension than the chute, the loads at the inboard end of the sprit attachment will be harder to engineer and deal with. That is one I would have a chat with the (sorry missed it in your signature and didn't know who the designer was or that he passed - see below) a designer about.

 

Max, who drew that (below) up for you or is it a home-grown idea?

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can't have a chat with the designer, he's been dead since 1993

 

 

My solution for the sprit is to devise a telescoping sprit rig out of a tapered carbon pole, and brackets attached to the walkway and front X-beam. I've had holes drilled in the bows, a few inches above max waterline height, into which I'll be splicing some Dux or the like. I'll extend with a pulley and line system. I'm also planning to run a set of textile backstays that I'll only use with the big headsails

 

If this works, here's a pic of the sprit rig
12347846_978598288879945_511426474833915

 

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Hi Wess,

 

There's two hoists, mast head and hounds, both with down hauls rigged to jammers at the mast base (you cant see the second one, its towards the end of the prodder). So I had a loose luff screecher on a profurl rig, and two different size and weight asymmetrical kites. It was nice to pull down and put the screecher away when the wind picked up, and my cutter rigged head-sails were hank on. I liked putting sail away when things piped up.

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Thanks for all the response guys. You are all a valuable resource. If anyone wants to come out for a sail let me know.

 

Here are the pics of the prodder setup. Well obviously the setup is pretty dodgy at the beam right now as I am not going to splice up my spectra lines until I know exactly how I want to run it so I just used some temporary lines for now. You can see the harken slider is a very loose fit. It has no rollers or anything making it VERY hard to slide under any load, even the weight of the pole is too much for smooth operation.. It actually grinds slivers of alloy away from the track!! I Took it off and beveled the sharp edges and its only a little better.

 

IMO the whole sail needs to be easy to remove. Its not safe to leave up in bad weather.

 

The fact the slider its a loose fit to the track, and the downward angle of the prodder, means that the slider cocks down on an angle. This then gave enough leverage to start pulling the track out (one of the pics shows this if you look closely). At that point I only had athwartships lines connected to stop the base sliding to any side. My dodgy line binding happened after I noticed the track problems. Its very easy to bind it very tight this way to hold the base up. I got it so tight I actually bent the track back up. If only I fastened it in this way rather than the athwartships lines to begin with there would be no damage now.

 

I also made a post about my Squaretop in the relevant thread see here http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=157993&p=5183421

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Here are some anchoring related prodder pics. The pock marks on deck is where the hail smashed the bog away. I better get some paint on that epoxy soon. :D

 

I took a photo from inside were Wess recommended I mount new cleats for the bridal so I can run it under the stays (the top of the hull and bridgedeck intersection). Hows it look for strength? There is a beam in there. I do wonder if mounting them further back will create a tendency to sail at anchor? The further forward the bridal connection points, the better it will sit into the wind. But as of now, it sits rock steady into the wind unlike any mono I have owned which must have had far higher anchor loads due to sailing at anchor even if the windage is supposedly less than a cat.

 

The photo of the Crowther 150 shows the bridal going under the prodder stays no probs. But in this case the beam is much further back, the stays are mounted much higher and further forward all helping to allow a bridal under arrangement. As you can see, my stays certainly need to me mounted higher. Further forward is not possible unless I extend the bows :D. But if they are mounted further forward and higher I might be able to get away way with going under with the bridal even with my current connection points. As you can see now, moving them higher will foul the bridal much more (with the only current option) which is to go over with the bridal.

 

Thats an awesome setup Max. I would love something like that. If I was doing it from scratch I would go that way for sure. But with what I already have I think its probably best to just optimize my current setup. How do you handle the loads at the beam end with this setup?

 

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Looks like there is meant to be some plastic sliders between the car and track.

Do you pull the pole tip to windward to run deeper angles?

Edit: saw the second lot of photos, obviously no sidewys movement.

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You can imagine the fun in trying to actually set the bridal in this bridal over arrangement. Total PITA. I have to admit I been anchoring with a scrubber straight to my windlass as this is so hard to set up. I would go to the trouble if the weather looked bad though.

 

Another fun thing that was in my second last pic was that ventilation pipe setup. The idea was to draw air from the bottom of the front of the bridgedeck with a fan and blow it into each front birth. Probably to keep mold out when left unoccupied. Good idea other than the fact all the pipes were broken and the shit location of the air intake (the same guy must have thought of that location that installed the escape hatch in a similar location). This area was boarded off so I could not see it. You can see where the board was connected in that pic.

 

So the first time I sailed the boat off shore we took on about 300L of water in each bow pissing in from that hole. I think I spoke about it already in this thread.

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Looks like there is meant to be some plastic sliders between the car and track.

Do you pull the pole tip to windward to run deeper angles?

Edit: saw the second lot of photos, obviously no sidewys movement.

 

Yeah the part does look like it should have some plastic sliders. I thought that too. Who would I best talk to to find that out? I guess I should contact Harken.

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Looks like there is meant to be some plastic sliders between the car and track.

Do you pull the pole tip to windward to run deeper angles?

Edit: saw the second lot of photos, obviously no sidewys movement.

Yeah the part does look like it should have some plastic sliders. I thought that too. Who would I best talk to to find that out? I guess I should contact Harken.

Harken would be the first call, if they do not stock them anymore see if they have a dimensioned drawing so you could get some machined up.

The track should really be in tension, not compression, AFAIK most arently really designed for high compression loads. Getting the track perpendicular to the pole, rather than a bit off axis like at the moment, will help but not solve the issue

 

Looking closer at you pictures, you need to move your prodder lines up, right? So bridle attachment needs to move inboard and down, to allow it to go underneath. Can you take another shot standing on that wooden bow seat looking straight down, to see the plan view a little better?

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You want to set your pole up such that you can fold it away, AFAIC. Look again at Kevin's pic. Get rid of the track, build a bracket and hinge your prodder. You'll have to come up with some way to adjust your martingales. If you Google around, there are plenty of pics of retractable poles on multihulls.

Or, if you don't want to mess with detaching or adjusting your martingales, you'll have to telescope it but that will take building some flavor of brackets like the ones in my pic, and a different pole design entirely

 

Having the anchor bridle in the best place for the boat is far more important than rigging the prodder, unless you aren't going cruising and are never going to be on the hook in nasty

 

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Dennis sail - How are your bobstays attached to the Bows?

 

As interest - I am about to mount mine by drilling two holes on each side clear through the stem. Into each will be glassed a fiberglass tube, and the area around where those tubes enter/exit will be chamfered and glassed in. Tubes then lopped off flush, area faired and painted.

 

Then the 7mm Dyneema bobstays will thread through those tubes.

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Gotta say that this thread is infectious for me to read. I'm currently in the "figuring out what I want by chartering a ton of cats" stage of future ownership but this project has definitely got me looking in another direction than I was originally.

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Having the anchor bridle in the best place for the boat is far more important than rigging the prodder, unless you aren't going cruising and are never going to be on the hook in nasty

Why not have both? Do think the sprit needs to be very well rigged and engineered especially if using for screecher upwind as well as chute downwind. Not likely to lose the rig if the sprit fails when flying a chute but do know of a well designed rig that failed when the sprit let go while sailing upwind under screecher.

 

I took a photo from inside were Wess recommended I mount new cleats for the bridal so I can run it under the stays (the top of the hull and bridgedeck intersection). Hows it look for strength? There is a beam in there. I do wonder if mounting them further back will create a tendency to sail at anchor? The further forward the bridal connection points, the better it will sit into the wind. But as of now, it sits rock steady into the wind

 

 

Cant comment on structural strength. And will guess its specific to the boat but we lived on moorings and hooks and moving the bridle somewhat aft and inboard on each hull made no difference on the yacht's behavior or tendency to sail on the hook. Once had an engineer explain to me there was an optimal angle for the bridle and we were actually closer to it with the revised set-up. Saw it in an article on the web somewhere as well but doubt I could locate it.

 

Keith - What you posted is close to what we ended up with. Boat had mid-line structure to deal with compression loads from sprit.

 

Max - did you design/engineer (who did) that and is it for up and downwind sails? Interesting idea.

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I think your problem is raising the angle of the sprit. For that track system to work it needs to be in pure compression. The Having t the sprit angled up it is putting a huge downward force on the track. The way the geometry of your boat is set up, I am guessing the pole gets three to four pounds of compression for every pound of upwards force. With the swivels at the butt end of the pole you are creating a huge bending moment. I would say just set the pole perpendicular to the track and go. Otherwise you need to re-engineer the sprit mounting system. The whole point of the track system is to be able to retract the pole when you are in conditions where it starts submerging.

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I think your problem is raising the angle of the sprit. For that track system to work it needs to be in pure compression. The Having t the sprit angled up it is putting a huge downward force on the track. The way the geometry of your boat is set up, I am guessing the pole gets three to four pounds of compression for every pound of upwards force. With the swivels at the butt end of the pole you are creating a huge bending moment. I would say just set the pole perpendicular to the track and go. Otherwise you need to re-engineer the sprit mounting system. The whole point of the track system is to be able to retract the pole when you are in conditions where it starts submerging.

+1..... the lower you can get the tack end of the pole the the less compression you will have (shortening the pole will do the same by reducing the guy wire angle at the expense of moving your sheeting position further aft) and will put the compression forces at a better angle to your sliding track. These sail tracks aren't designed to take compression loads so I would agree with Max R. and ditch the track set up.

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Hey guys. I totally agree that the fact the sprit is not horizontal, but the track is mounted at the front of the beam, rather than up a bit higher means the sprit presses down on the track at an angle. This is a fairly obvious reason for the issue. But, IMO the issue here is not the sprit angle, but the track mounting position. If the force was perpendicular, and there was no slop I think it would be OK.

 

The sprit is about where Crowther said it should be (See attachment), and having tested it on some short passages in non protected waters in not that rough conditions I would certainly not want it lower. Sure when it gets really rough it should be taken down, but IMO with no sail attached it should be able to handle some punching in waves...

 

Is that Whats Up Doc pictured with the prodder posted a few posts ago as a Crowther 150? That's a cool boat, but I remember seeing pics of what looked like a "despritting", where it looked like something ripped it off. I would like to know what caused it, but on my boat it hopefully won't be submersion.

Sail plan 2.bmp

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Gotta say that this thread is infectious for me to read. I'm currently in the "figuring out what I want by chartering a ton of cats" stage of future ownership but this project has definitely got me looking in another direction than I was originally.

 

What sort of boats have you been chartering? I never chartered any, as I was not interested in charter cats. :P

 

Dennis sail - How are your bobstays attached to the Bows?

 

As interest - I am about to mount mine by drilling two holes on each side clear through the stem. Into each will be glassed a fiberglass tube, and the area around where those tubes enter/exit will be chamfered and glassed in. Tubes then lopped off flush, area faired and painted.

 

Then the 7mm Dyneema bobstays will thread through those tubes.

 

There are stainless steel padeyes below the waterline. :unsure: I think my stays are 10mm dynex. So they wont be breaking. The pole is very solid and it will also not break at the expense of being heavy. My whole rig is very overbuilt and heavy. Its super strong, not withstanding maintenance issues. Its all original and I will be replacing the wires soon. My weak points are the padeys IMO, and the track obviously. But with lashing I was able to sail to windward with it OK.

 

So with your setup, will you actually have a loop of line going around the stem? Is there one hole per side, so the line goes through the hole, then around the front of the stem then back to the line to be spliced?

 

 

You want to set your pole up such that you can fold it away, AFAIC. Look again at Kevin's pic. Get rid of the track, build a bracket and hinge your prodder. You'll have to come up with some way to adjust your martingales. If you Google around, there are plenty of pics of retractable poles on multihulls.

 

Or, if you don't want to mess with detaching or adjusting your martingales, you'll have to telescope it but that will take building some flavor of brackets like the ones in my pic, and a different pole design entirely

 

Having the anchor bridle in the best place for the boat is far more important than rigging the prodder, unless you aren't going cruising and are never going to be on the hook in nasty

 

Max what boat do you have, a Catana? Do you have pics of the final setup for the mounting points at the stem? I think a hinge would be good too. Also I thought of a system where the stays are in 2 pieces with the bottom half always staying connected to the stem, but you could somehow disconnect the the top half of the stays and they would stay with the sprit. That way it could hinge then disconnect. I have a beak which easily disconnects. But the stays don't disconnect.

 

I would much rather have the sprit extended with no sail in bad weather than have it somehow folded in and stored athwartships on the front beam. With it exended, its spearing into waves with the pointy and and its connected solidly by 2 x 10mm dynex stays and a 12mm spectra halyard. With it stored on the beam, seas would smash it broad side and it would be lashed by what, a few sail ties and then be smashed against the beam.

 

IMO the options are to leave it up with no sail, or completely remove it to be stored somewhere better. With the longitudinal retraction system the waves would be hitting it a more favorable angle and the mountings would be very strong compared to some lashings.

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Dennis, not sure what you mean by the 'stem,' but the picture shows how the rig is mounted. The only things that aren't there are the extension pulley system (the greenish line is a temporary run to see if the angles were good) and the bobstay/martingales.

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Here are the pics from the top.

 

I certainly want to be able to run a bridal with no issue. So the bridal under set up is the way to go for this. It wont make it any harder to set than usual. Moving the bridal attachment points back and the sprit stay points up (and forward if I do the bow) will so all this. And get the things out of the water. By moving them up, I will be increasing the loads, but by moving them forward I will be deceasing them.

 

Also, I spoke about that dodgy link in my chain I found which connected 2 good condition lengths of 45 and 37m. You need to see the pics to believe. How does this happen?

post-41781-0-53337100-1452040256_thumb.jpg

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post-41781-0-04720700-1452040796_thumb.jpg

post-41781-0-75501100-1452040798_thumb.jpg

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Max, the stem is the most forward part of the bow in saltydog speak. Whats a martingale? All I get is pics of horses :P I was interested to see the termination of the stays in this area through the drilled holes. Paxfish mentioned it then you showed someone drilling holes through your boat. Wont it sink? :P But seriously I would like to eliminate highly loaded pieces metal from near the surface of the sea.

 

Looking at your waterline, Bedar floats about the same as yours, but for some stupid reason the points are underwater.

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Hey guys. I totally agree that the fact the sprit is not horizontal, but the track is mounted at the front of the beam, rather than up a bit higher means the sprit presses down on the track at an angle. This is a fairly obvious reason for the issue. But, IMO the issue here is not the sprit angle, but the track mounting position. If the force was perpendicular, and there was no slop I think it would be OK.

 

The sprit is about where Crowther said it should be (See attachment), and having tested it on some short passages in non protected waters in not that rough conditions I would certainly not want it lower. Sure when it gets really rough it should be taken down, but IMO with no sail attached it should be able to handle some punching in waves...

 

Is that Whats Up Doc pictured with the prodder posted a few posts ago as a Crowther 150? That's a cool boat, but I remember seeing pics of what looked like a "despritting", where it looked like something ripped it off. I would like to know what caused it, but on my boat it hopefully won't be submersion.

 

 

Yes, That is Whats Up Doc, at anchor in Penrhyn in N.Cooks, and the original prodder as rigged in N.Z., In the many thousands of ocean miles I sailed her, I never had an issue with the prodder in waves.

This includes sitting to a para-tech sea anchor on occasion as well. The Bows always rose up well before the prodder hit any water. The only time I would remove the prodder, was in the odd marina where they charged by length, ( I was rarely in marinas, and generally at anchor) and in that case, I just pulled the pin at the beam end and pulled the pole back onto the nets. It is quite possible Phillipe (previous owner in New Cal.) may have done some damage to it, he sailed and raced her much harder than i did. I cruised very efficiently, and only raced a little bit......I tried not to break stuff.... ;)

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paxfish described it. Just eyes spliced through the drilled holes.

 

Martingale: 2. Nautical Any of several parts of standing rigging strengthening the bowsprit and jib boom against the force of the headstays.

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I have been posting bits and pieces of this project in various places around the net, but finally I decided to make a website to keep it all in one place. The website has only been up for one day and its the first time I have made a website other than the http://knottyladypacific.blogspot.com.au/ blog I did.

 

Here is a little of what I have been doing to prepare for the paintjob. Also some repairs I had to do recently while cruising. Its good to be able to do these repairs alone and with what you have onboard.

 

https://lifeafloatblog.wordpress.com/deck-and-fittings/

 

Some quick pics for those who would rather not click links.

 

These let go sailing hard to windward in 25K wind. The issue here was also no proper core strengthening, but IMO the angle they were mounted at. The last turning blocks were in tension, these ones are in compression. But because the compression loads were at an angle it placed too much stress on the bolts and they bent. Once they started bending the glass laminate and core had no chance so it crushed.

 

I found this issue once I was in the Sandy Straits, so I was sailing for a while like this. These issues may seem bad at first. But this was all fixed by me on my own with tools and spares I had on board.

 

Sand bog away from area. Find new spot to mount the block. Drill large holes so they can be backfilled with enough cabosil epoxy bog to unload the core. De core as much as you can to get more bog in the area. Apply many layers of heavy triax and biax to distribute the load.

 

The most important part IMO here was the mounting angle. I made a template which marked the angle so the block would only be in compression with no side load.

 

As you can see the old version had it mounted flush with the cabin top, well before it bent. My version now has an epoxy cabosil mount which I made by forming a mini bog hill then setting the hardware in it at the right angle. The tape stops it sticking. The access point for these is under the cockpit speakers. I found a use for the smaller old backing plates for the turning blogs I repaired above. The bottom sides were also heavily reglassed and the plates were also bedded in with bog. I dont think I will have an issue here again.

 

cabintop-blocks-20151214_083141.jpg?w=40

 

cabintop-blocks-p1060634.jpg?w=770&h=&cr

 

 

 

 

 

cabintop-blocks-p1060632.jpg?w=770&h=&cr

 

cabintop-blocks-p1060643.jpg?w=770&h=&cr

 

cabintop-blocks-p1060652.jpg?w=1152

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So it was your boat Keith? Nice. I tried to find the pics of the damage. They are on the net somewhere, but it was the pics of that boat which made me wary of sprit breakage.

 

OK here is what happened.

 

 

Speed was a steady 19-20 with bursts to 22-23 according to the Immarsat recordings on my tracker website. This was with the bow sprit in the water!

 

http://whatsupdocsailing.blogspot.com.au/search?updated-min=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2011-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=5

 

nantucket%2Bwhats%2Bup%2Bdoc6.jpg

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So it was your boat Keith? Nice. I tried to find the pics of the damage. They are on the net somewhere, but it was the pics of that boat which made me wary of sprit breakage.

Yes, I lived aboard full time for 7 to 8 years and cruised from New Cal to Northern Maine. I sold her up north and haven't been back aboard or seen her since.

 

There may well have been damage done to her after I sold her. But while I had her she was awesome..... and an excellent ocean cat.

 

Chose her simply because, L.Crowther design number 150, was designed by him for his own use. I sailed most of the time.

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I bet she was awesome. I considered buying her. I'm surprised you didn't know of the above though.

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Here's what she looked like shortly before I sold her, and after 7 to 8 years of sailing full time, from Australia through too the northern USA.

 

I really dont know what the next owner did with or too her. But she was an awsome cat, and never let me down.

 

L.Crowther really designed an excellent combination racer cruiser, and the boys at Hutchesons, in NZ did an awesome job building her.

post-36841-0-03964400-1452048540_thumb.jpg

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I bet she was awesome. I considered buying her. I'm surprised you didn't know of the above though.

 

I really didn't follow what the next owner was doing with her or too her.

 

I just moved on, after an amazing 7 or 8 years living aboard and cruising full time.

 

I have no idea who has her now, but i can tell you that, she was very well built, an excellent sailing cat, simple to maintain, and easy too cruise. And all epoxy resin.

 

The only real difference from Mr Crowthers 150 was the straighter bows, and the steps on the back.

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Here's a setup from a L.Crowther design 150..

Keith - I forgot to mention that is a cool boat you had there. Ran into Doc many moons ago. Recall a well rigged and maintained boat. Wess

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Hey guys. I totally agree that the fact the sprit is not horizontal, but the track is mounted at the front of the beam, rather than up a bit higher means the sprit presses down on the track at an angle. This is a fairly obvious reason for the issue. But, IMO the issue here is not the sprit angle, but the track mounting position. If the force was perpendicular, and there was no slop I think it would be OK.

 

The sprit is about where Crowther said it should be (See attachment), and having tested it on some short passages in non protected waters in not that rough conditions I would certainly not want it lower. Sure when it gets really rough it should be taken down, but IMO with no sail attached it should be able to handle some punching in waves...

 

Is that Whats Up Doc pictured with the prodder posted a few posts ago as a Crowther 150? That's a cool boat, but I remember seeing pics of what looked like a "despritting", where it looked like something ripped it off. I would like to know what caused it, but on my boat it hopefully won't be submersion.

Hi Dennis

Would it be possible to use the web thats welded to the front of your seagull striker for your prodder? If beefed up may be an easier fix, why a need for the track anyway?

 

Al

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That is correct, whole boat is Kevlar and VE resin! Only a small amount of FG in it, and no PE resin at all. I tip my hat to Mike Baker, who built the thing, he did a marvellous job in less time than I built my 20 foot power boat in my garage!

 

Nice read there, I had a feeling it was 4 queen cabins... as I recall the same sheets fit the beds, but that was 10 years ago... might have been 2 queen 2 double. I am the short one of the family... standing at 6'1 and I fit with ease in it!

 

That was definitely a very nice re-fit done back in 2014! Wow, there must have been serious $$$ spent! Although most of the stuff would have been 1999 electronics... So definitely worth it! Also really want to see the new rig on it!

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Ah ok. I'm sure you said it was epoxy at the start of the thread. That's what I told my mate it was, but obviously its VE. Same as mine. Mine is also kevlar, but as for where exactly I don't know. The plans I have show it has a fair bit on the inside skins. As for queen cabins. That's what mine was sold as too, but the beds certainly do not measure queen size. The closest actual bed size is a double bed on all cabins. I am thinking of converting our rear cabin in a real queen.

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Back to anchoring again. Now I plan to hardly be on moorings, I want to be secure on anchor. Do you think a 25kg rocna will hold this safely in strong conditions in unknown sea bottom when left alone for a few days I go with 33kg just to be sure? I have 10mm chain but since there are no markings on it I have to assume its the weakest grade. Do you think a downgrade in size but upgrade to medium tensile G4 "high test" will be strong enough? I am struggling to find a comparison to the strength of low tensile to medium tensile chain. I would rather a longer, strong lighter chain and a heavier anchor than a shorter length of heavy chain with a smaller anchor. This will be lighter over all and allow anchoring in deeper water.

 

I know people argue about the "catenary", I'm not worried about that and don't want to get into it again here. That's a different discussion. All I am worried about is if 8mm 5/16 "G4" would be strong enough and how it compares to 10mm 3/8 low tensile (BBB or L grade). I have many lengths of 8mm G4 chain at home, the longest being 80m.

 

Currently Bedar has one 45m length of 10mm on board. I jettisoned a rusty 25m length of 10mm, and I have another 35m length I took off the boat after I chopped it at a dangerous joining link. I really don't want 80m of that heavy chain back on the boat? The cost to join and regal this chain is almost $1000. I have the 5/16 G4 chain all sitting at home. Sure it will cost a bit to change the gypsy but I could wait until someone wanted to trade, but the cost of the gypsy is less that to re gal my low grade 10mm chain anyway.

 

What do you reckon?

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Just got off the phone to Stuart Bloomfield. I am thinking about getting the boat to survey standard so I can take paying passengers. I also asked him if I extended the boat with bow and stern extensions if this would void the design to be eligible for survey. He said no it would not (if done right) and he would be keen to work on the designs. So this has got me enthusiastic again.

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Nice nice, are you looking at doing the work yourself?

You could get it designed up to have both, but TBH the transoms do look to sit quite well, so you could start by lifting her and just doing the bows first to save time & money, plus that could be where the biggest gains would be made (although you'd want to talk to a serious designer to confirm all that). Plus you could do it in a way so at the top point of the bow stayed exactly the same, so the only change would be the underside of the bow. God I recon it'd be epic having some serious volume up front, coupled with a fine wave piercing entry, so you just slice through everything!

 

After sailing years on T-cats I got on my first wave piercer (a non foiling a-cat) a few years ago, and it was just blistering how you could push that bow, and it just LOVED it!

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Dennis and Max, A buddy of mine built me a nice sprit using his custom fittings. Outboard, the sprit has a hole for a spinnaker tack line. This passes back to the inboard end and out a slot to a cleat. The hook is for a Facnor roller furler for a screacher and the grooved portion will hold the spliced eyes for the Inboard end of the bobstays The inboard end is a ball-and-delrin socket.

 

My bobstay-to-hull connections rely on ferrules that are being milled out of G10 right now. They will be glassed in to a 1.25" hole through my stem, and the end of the bobstay will have an Amsteel double 8 stopper knot recessed below plumb inside the ferrule.

 

Here are a couple of shots of the sprit:

 

doZl1cs.jpg

 

HLCEjRu.jpg

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Awesome setup please post more pics. Does this allow the whole prodder to just come right off without much fuss? So the furler and stays are not actually captive and rely only on tension to keep everything in place? What boat and how long is the pole?

 

I plan do do the work on our boat myself, but I will probably also pay people to do some of painful stuff like sanding. Man I hate sanding.

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Dennis - I'll post up a shot or two when I have it fully rigged. Here is a pic from the sprit builder's boat, and it has worked fine for several years. The sprit is 2 meters long, and yeah compression holds everything together. To some degree, I share your reservations about the hook versus an eye, but I am persuaded by the designer who has a LOT more experience that i do on that bit of kit!

 

The sprit/prodder can be easily removed after the furler halyard is dropped by releasing the keeper line connected to the seagull striker. More specifically, the white braided line in the pic below. Once that is released, the sprit will lower and the ball can be released from the socket.

 

wyTeJWy.jpg

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What material is that hook made off, I'd be a bit concerned about it straightening out. You get some serious loads out on the end of the pole.

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It is pretty stout and appears to be made of stainless slightly less than 7/16" diameter. In the pic, He has it supporting a huge Genny on a 44 cat without issues.

 

My headsail won't be nearly as large.

 

That said - I will keep a close eye on it.

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Hi Dennis,

just followed your link from boatdesign.

 

I read/scanned the whole post and I very pleased with the responses and the help offered on this forum without any bad comments etc. Congratulation on all of you!!

 

Dennis, there is no better sleeping pill than a BIG anchor, the chain is secondary.

I had a 26kg Delta on my Salina 48 (13.5T) and 13mm standard chain, when new.

After a couple of years I bought a 40kg Delta and replaced the 13mm chain with 10mm HiTen, so I got rid of a lot of weight and never drag the anchor.

However, if I was to choose again, I'd by a Rocna. They hold better in muddy estuary, actually much better than the Delta.

 

Since I sold the Salina, I am now considering buying a smaller cat and extend it.

I will extend both bows and sterns to gain waterline length.

For the bows I am planning to turn them into reverse bows, just using 60kg divinycell foam over the original, sanded down with long boards, glassed over and faired. No plywood except for a 'keel' dividing the outer and inner foam fillings. That way I will be able to fair it with no effort.

 

Keep us posted mate and congratulations on you project!

 

Keep smiling

Stefano

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Good one Spiv and welcome!

 

I ordered a new anchor. I am very aware of the Rocna and other roll bar anchors. I like them, but this case went with a Sarca Excel which looks a lot like a delta but has been awarded Lloyds super high holding power which is double that they gave the delta. So my new anchor will be a 30kg Excel rather than a 25kg delta. The roll bar would not have fitted well.

 

Your idea of extending a smaller cat is a good one IMO. Do you mean you will make solid 60kg divinycell bow extensions? Sounds expensive? I also thought of doing that using a board that extends between the old hull and the new hull when viewed from the side. But I wanted to use high density XPS as its cheaper and easy to cut, but it would need thicker skins and some stringers embedded. Now we are 13.1m. I would like 0.6 on the back and 1.3 to make 15m.

 

Many smaller production cats cram too much space into a short fat boat. A 38 foot prod boat lengthened to 45 foot would make it much faster and nicer to sail.

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Anchor:

I have not met anyone with a Sarca, so I have no direct feedback. Looks good on the manufacturer's website...

The Deltas and Rocnas are similar in sand/ rock, the Rocnas proved to be far superior in soft or hard mud.

 

 

Bow Extensions:

I haven't considered the cost of the foam, but I used Divinycell extensively and know and like its properties. PU foam could be another solution, but with time it absorbs moisture, so there must be no penetrations or, in any case, it must be considered if attaching anything to the skin.

Doesn't the XPS melt when coated in resin ?

Other Styrene foams I used did. There might be a way to put a barrier coat, but how how effective the final bond would be?

 

 

Bridel:

The lower the attachment point, the less scope you have to use, remember, 5 to 7 times the bottom depth, that includes air hight. 1m lower, 7m less chain to use.

 

 

Prodders:

Some pics of a firend's prodder on an Outremer 55 light, might give some ideas (pics quality not the best as I made from screenshots of a video):

post-123089-0-41837900-1455531087_thumb.jpg

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post-123089-0-21375800-1455531222_thumb.jpg

 

The A frame design allows him to walk to the furler and i guess makes it a lot more rigid.

In marinas it can swivel up or down.

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XPS will not melt with epoxy (and possibly even special VE) and is totally water proof, but not very strong in shear. But for a sacrificial bow it might hold up OK with a bit of re enforcement. I would be worried about the delamination of the glass skin.

 

I fitted my new Sarca Excel but I am yet to test it. It looks a lot like a delta, from all reports and tests it seriously outperforms a delta. Here is a vid from the manufacture. Yeah I know the vids would be biased but anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElVQ8Z8w4WA#t=25

 

The frame looks pretty good. I wont be building one as I want to keep the gear I already have. I think optimizing it will be the best solution. Even just using it again I found an easier way of taking the whole pole off. I can see he still has the issue of the bridal lines going over the prodder stays. Not good if they are textile. The best solution is still an arrangement which allows the bridal to go under the stays.

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paxfish, that is how mine are done. pic below is of the drilling in process:

 

11013607_922153447857763_901527919076450

Max, can you post more pictures of this process. I am thinking about doing it to my boat but am not exactly clear on how the tube gets glassed in.

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Mizzmo - I am about to do this also. My stem is made of 1/4" laminated strips of Western Red Cedar and shaped roughly 3" thick and tapering a bit at the face of the stem.

 

I intend to:

-Drill a pilot hole through the stem perpendicular to the inner face of the hull.

-From the outface, bore a 1 1/4" hole using the pilot hole about halfway through

-Continue all the way through with a 3/4" hole.

-Coat the exposed stem with unthickened epoxy

-Mix up a batch of thickened epoxy and thoroughly coat the ferrule below.

-Insert the furrule, cure and fair.

 

The ferrule is machined out of G-10 rod and will accept the double stopper knot of 6mm amsteel bobstay.

 

X6UExD8.jpg