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Where are they now? - Retired America's Cup Boat


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This was a really good, sailboat related thread until you, A4E/dg_sailingfan, came here to barf your DB hate into it as well. What a sick troll you are that needs to poison each and ever thread with

You could be right, but I don't remember if there was a lift next to Christies. That might have been Williams and Manchester, which I think had only a single lift. Dennis was based at Williams and Man

Great to see this brought back to life. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 7:45 PM, jaysper said:

Cheap for a beautiful piece of history.

Having sailed on that boat for many years and spending much of it down below packing kites upwind it's in the best shape now that it has been in a long time and definitely the cleanest.  

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On 4/14/2021 at 11:18 AM, accnick said:

That's only the price of admission.

But that's true of any sink hole, errr I mean yacht.

But for such an impressive and historic yacht, I consider it a bargain.

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Saw this at the Hinckley yard in Portsmouth RI the other day-  One of the twin NZ boats from 1987.

Love that the entire aft third of the keel is the trim tab and the wings move with it.  Sexy....

 

 

KZ KEEL.jpg

KZ trim tab.jpg

KZ.jpg

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Saw this at the same yard a few years ago-  It's the original (I think) bow segment of KZ-7, aka KIWI MAGIC.

To think this caused all that controversy, people wanted to see core samples taken, DC accused the kiwis of cheating (even Tom Blackaller declared "Uh Oh!  I don't think he should have said that!"), and so forth and so on.  

What a great series that was.  Dang.

Anyway I think it was a honeycomb core with a shitload of glass on either side to bring it up to min panel weight.  The solid glass strip down the centerline must have helped w headstay tension quite a bit.

Crafty....   If you would like to see it now go to the Fastnet Pub in Newport RI.  It's stuck to the wall around back over the pool tables.  Hell of a decoration!

KZ BOW 1.jpg

KZ BOW 2.jpg

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10 hours ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Saw this at the Hinckley yard in Portsmouth RI the other day-  One of the twin NZ boats from 1987.

Love that the entire aft third of the keel is the trim tab and the wings move with it.  Sexy....

 

 

KZ KEEL.jpg

KZ trim tab.jpg

KZ.jpg

KZ3.

Keel would not be original from 1987 as they have had a few since then.

KZ7.

20190530_12mrarrivals_152.thumb.jpeg.aa98fc33442ab463457824a7f0d4dd02.jpeg61181851_2154057248023478_9093204875331764224_n.thumb.jpeg.d19e69ba7f781303047bdbc9fbdf906b.jpeg

20190530_12mrarrivals_126.thumb.jpeg.04978d02d84abdcc4789aab7892da421.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Saw this at the same yard a few years ago-  It's the original (I think) bow segment of KZ-7, aka KIWI MAGIC.

To think this caused all that controversy, people wanted to see core samples taken, DC accused the kiwis of cheating (even Tom Blackaller declared "Uh Oh!  I don't think he should have said that!"), and so forth and so on.  

What a great series that was.  Dang.

Anyway I think it was a honeycomb core with a shitload of glass on either side to bring it up to min panel weight.  The solid glass strip down the centerline must have helped w headstay tension quite a bit.

Crafty....   If you would like to see it now go to the Fastnet Pub in Newport RI.  It's stuck to the wall around back over the pool tables.  Hell of a decoration!

KZ BOW 1.jpg

KZ BOW 2.jpg

Gotta ask why the radical surgery.

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Not sure of the exact reason for the bow surgery-  I'd guess they were trying to tweak it for lighter conditions than Fremantle.  Cool to see that she and a lot of other 12s are still being raced and optimized.  VICTORY '83 and CHALLENGE 12 have been really pimped out.  Cockpits revamped, big roaches on the mainsails, permanent backstays removed, carbon booms and poles, black sails....  Gotta love it!

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On 4/17/2021 at 4:20 AM, Serge A. Storms said:

Not sure of the exact reason for the bow surgery-  I'd guess they were trying to tweak it for lighter conditions than Fremantle.  Cool to see that she and a lot of other 12s are still being raced and optimized.  VICTORY '83 and CHALLENGE 12 have been really pimped out.  Cockpits revamped, big roaches on the mainsails, permanent backstays removed, carbon booms and poles, black sails....  Gotta love it!

Looking at the photos of KZ-7 going on the ship above it looks like the boom is quite a bit longer than it was back in the day.  Good bet that they are giving up a bit of waterline to gain some sail area.  Would make sense as I don't think they will sail in big conditions all that often.  Anyone know if this is the case?

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3 hours ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Looking at the photos of KZ-7 going on the ship above it looks like the boom is quite a bit longer than it was back in the day.  Good bet that they are giving up a bit of waterline to gain some sail area.  Would make sense as I don't think they will sail in big conditions all that often.  Anyone know if this is the case?

Waterline in the 12mR rule is only "counted" for the purpose of determining required minimum displacement, as well as being a horizontal datum for a lot of the other measurements. Longer LWL=greater required displacement, and vice versa. For purposes of the AC, minimum waterline length  could not be less than 44', which was fairly typical for a 12m. It does not impact directly on permitted sail area.

One basic way to gain sail area is to shorten measured L (LBG), which is the length of hull measured at 180 mm above MWL (corrected for other things such as girth measurements).  Over the years, this has resulted in some funky stem profiles.

The "easiest" way to shorten L is steepening the stem profile, but there are knock-on effects from doing this if you aren't careful.

The IACC/ACC rule used a lot of the same measurement stations and inputs as the 12mR, and the rating calculation formula was conceptually similar. We used to talk about destroyer bows, metre-boat bows, and ultimately knuckle bow (last generation ACC boats) in describing their stem profiles.

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On 4/17/2021 at 8:37 AM, Priscilla said:

 

KZ3.

Keel would not be original from 1987 as they have had a few since then.

KZ7.

20190530_12mrarrivals_152.thumb.jpeg.aa98fc33442ab463457824a7f0d4dd02.jpeg61181851_2154057248023478_9093204875331764224_n.thumb.jpeg.d19e69ba7f781303047bdbc9fbdf906b.jpeg

20190530_12mrarrivals_126.thumb.jpeg.04978d02d84abdcc4789aab7892da421.jpeg

Gee thanks for posting that video, as a kiwi it’s amazing to see our old boats racing living new lives with good equipment. Have to give our American friends top marks for restoring these old warhorses. 

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On 4/16/2021 at 4:37 PM, Priscilla said:

 

KZ3.

Keel would not be original from 1987 as they have had a few since then.

KZ7.

20190530_12mrarrivals_152.thumb.jpeg.aa98fc33442ab463457824a7f0d4dd02.jpeg61181851_2154057248023478_9093204875331764224_n.thumb.jpeg.d19e69ba7f781303047bdbc9fbdf906b.jpeg

20190530_12mrarrivals_126.thumb.jpeg.04978d02d84abdcc4789aab7892da421.jpeg

There are a fair number of former AC sailors in that video, including Lexi Gahagan and Jeff Beneville. Brad Read is Kenny's little brother. They still love sailing on the 12s, and Newport is a great place for it.

I believe Bill Koch at one point owned KZ5 and KZ7. He raised the game quite a bit, and brought other deep-pocket owners into the class.

More of them are being brought back into competitive condition all the time, including some that had been very seriously neglected over the years.

The great thing about the KZ boats is that their fiberglass construction has held up extremely well compared to their wood and alloy counterparts.

 

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Patrizio Bertelli has two 12m yachts.

Nyala US-12 and Kookaburra II KA-12.

Nyala built in 1938 the 12th 12m built in the USA.

F.T. Bedford commissioned the 12 meter Nyala as a gift for Briggs Cunningham and his daughter Lucie when they married.

In 1931 Cunningham was a crew member aboard the Dorade when it won the race around the Fastnet Rock

In 1937 he was a member of the crew for Harold Stirling Vanderbilt on his yacht Vim.

Cunningham bought the schooner Brilliant from the Coast Guard after WWII, and modified it in an attempt to increase its speed. In 1953 he donated the Brilliant to the to be used as an off-shore classroom.

The Brilliant was the first vessel to receive an improved downhaul invented by Cunningham that has come to bear his name

Cunningham was part of the syndicate that commissioned construction of the 12 meter sloop Columbia to contest the first post-war America's Cup race in 1958.The original choice to skipper Columbia in the America's Cup was Cornelious Shields, but when he was sidelined by heart troubles Cunningham stepped in and led the boat and crew to victory.

m3236_12m_Nylaia__Koocaburra-16_9.thumb.jpeg.668464a5cbd1b1a410a66a2915488516.jpeg2020-11-09_11-49-21.jpeg.0ce720a0401786c8903936f55a5d924a.jpeg

 

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16 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Patrizio Bertelli has two 12m yachts.

Nyala US-12 and Kookaburra II KA-12.

Nyala built in 1938 the 12th 12m built in the USA.

F.T. Bedford commissioned the 12 meter Nyala as a gift for Briggs Cunningham and his daughter Lucie when they married.

In 1931 Cunningham was a crew member aboard the Dorade when it won the race around the Fastnet Rock

In 1937 he was a member of the crew for Harold Stirling Vanderbilt on his yacht Vim.

Cunningham bought the schooner Brilliant from the Coast Guard after WWII, and modified it in an attempt to increase its speed. In 1953 he donated the Brilliant to the to be used as an off-shore classroom.

The Brilliant was the first vessel to receive an improved downhaul invented by Cunningham that has come to bear his name

Cunningham was part of the syndicate that commissioned construction of the 12 meter sloop Columbia to contest the first post-war America's Cup race in 1958.The original choice to skipper Columbia in the America's Cup was Cornelious Shields, but when he was sidelined by heart troubles Cunningham stepped in and led the boat and crew to victory.

m3236_12m_Nylaia__Koocaburra-16_9.thumb.jpeg.668464a5cbd1b1a410a66a2915488516.jpeg2020-11-09_11-49-21.jpeg.0ce720a0401786c8903936f55a5d924a.jpeg

 

Nyala is a gorgeous boat. She live in a shed in City Island for decades, unrestored, but at least properly supported and inside. There were several stop and go attempts at restoring her back in the late 1970s, when she was owned by an older gentleman who would not part with her. I believe his name was Jerry Lauder, or something similar. She was Olin Stephens' first 12mR, and has a wonderful pedigree.

She was built a year after Gleam, a Clinton Crane design with sail number US 11.

Most of the earlier US 12s were a one-design class designed by Starling Burgess and built in Germany by A&R.

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On 3/15/2021 at 6:57 PM, 45Roller said:

I used to spend a fair bit of time on mariantic's IAAC boats listing page, was the best resource for where they all were back in the day, shame it's not maintained any more, I have reached out to Trevor to see if he plans to:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100124063710/http://www.mariantic.co.uk/ac/site/boats.asp

 

you can find it all here - this was last edited in march(this year)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IACC_yachts

 

moving on chronologically

AC33 - dogzilla at Oracle HQ, Alinghi5 still in Valencia

AC34 - incomplete list is here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC72#List_of_AC72_catamarans

AC35 - hard to tell

Winner - NZ Aoteroa, at base in Auckland

3 boats modified into F50 (guessing Oracle, Artemis and ?Japan")

where are BAR and Groupama then?

AC36 - TBD i guess, all in auckland currently?

 

 

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

you can find it all here - this was last edited in march(this year)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IACC_yachts

 

moving on chronologically

AC33 - dogzilla at Oracle HQ, Alinghi5 still in Valencia

AC34 - incomplete list is here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC72#List_of_AC72_catamarans

AC35 - hard to tell

Winner - NZ Aoteroa, at base in Auckland

3 boats modified into F50 (guessing Oracle, Artemis and ?Japan")

where are BAR and Groupama then?

AC36 - TBD i guess, all in auckland currently?

 

 

Oracle acquired all the AC50s they could for conversion to F50s. The NZ boat was obviously not for sale, and the BAR boat was determined not to be good enough to convert. You can conclude what you want from that. Not sure about the French boat.

The conversion required a lot of modification, as the cockpit layout of the F50 is not the same as the AC50. The crossbeams, center pod, and basic hull shape is the same as the AC50, I believe. Pretty much everything else is different.

Imagine taking an old IOR boat, and re-designing and replacing literally everything but the hull, and you have an idea of the differences between the AC50 and the F50. They look a lot alike, but they are very different.

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On 4/18/2021 at 8:12 AM, accnick said:

Waterline in the 12mR rule is only "counted" for the purpose of determining required minimum displacement, as well as being a horizontal datum for a lot of the other measurements. Longer LWL=greater required displacement, and vice versa. For purposes of the AC, minimum waterline length  could not be less than 44', which was fairly typical for a 12m. It does not impact directly on permitted sail area.

One basic way to gain sail area is to shorten measured L (LBG), which is the length of hull measured at 180 mm above MWL (corrected for other things such as girth measurements).  Over the years, this has resulted in some funky stem profiles.

The "easiest" way to shorten L is steepening the stem profile, but there are knock-on effects from doing this if you aren't careful.

The IACC/ACC rule used a lot of the same measurement stations and inputs as the 12mR, and the rating calculation formula was conceptually similar. We used to talk about destroyer bows, metre-boat bows, and ultimately knuckle bow (last generation ACC boats) in describing their stem profiles.

Interesting-  Sounds like the waterline-for-sail-area trade is a bit of an oversimplification on my part!  Even though it's out of my wheelhouse I still find it all intriguing.

In any case if the owners want to go back to the original bow they can yank it off the wall at The Fastnet Pub!  Might want to peel the stickers off and ditch the flood light....

Cheers!  Serge

KZ Bow 1.jpg

KZ Bow 2.jpg

KZ Bow 3.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Interesting-  Sounds like the waterline-for-sail-area trade is a bit of an oversimplification on my part!  Even though it's out of my wheelhouse I still find it all intriguing.

In any case if the owners want to go back to the original bow they can yank it off the wall at The Fastnet Pub!  Might want to peel the stickers off and ditch the flood light....

Cheers!  Serge

KZ Bow 1.jpg

KZ Bow 2.jpg

KZ Bow 3.jpg

Looking at the mounted bow, it was cut off just about at the forward end of LWL. The transverse black stripe on the bottom is at the forward  L1/girth/freeboard station, where the the forward measurements are taken that go into the measured length calculations.

The front end of an IACC boat was measured in virtually identical fashion, even though the numerical constraints that controlled the placement of the marks were slightly different. 

It would be interesting to know why this modification was done, and whether any changes are going back to a previous configuration, or if this is an entirely new configuration.

I always get an odd feeling seeing cut-off bits of boats mounted on the wall, like hunting trophies. Apparently, the transom of one of my old boats is hanging on the wall of a bar in Mystic, CT. That old girl went down while racing in a fall storm many years ago, and broke to pieces overnight off Fisher's Island. 

The transoms of several old J-boats, or maybe even earlier, used to hang on the wall of the Lobster Pot restaurant in Bristol, RI.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

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On 4/20/2021 at 9:25 PM, accnick said:

It would be interesting to know why this modification was done, and whether any changes are going back to a previous configuration, or if this is an entirely new configuration.

Hi All

Looking at the photos of KZ 7 being hoisted out (in an earlier post), it looks as though the new bow has a steeper rise to a smaller knuckle. This may be a way of paring back the measured water line (hence the overall rating of the hull).

In doing so, KZ 7 can then carry more sail area. The longer looking boom adds evidence to this. The original boom would have only come out as far as the transom traveler.

KZ 7 was originally designed for the stronger conditions off Fremantle. Although I'm not familiar with the places where she now sails, I'd imagine they'd have generally lighter winds.

By the way, I think that's still her original keel - it certainly looks like what I have seen of some plans pulled off the original Farr/Davidson design.

Cheers!

Karl

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On 4/20/2021 at 12:25 PM, accnick said:

I always get an odd feeling seeing cut-off bits of boats mounted on the wall, like hunting trophies.

Like when we found that orange bow behind a container in Singapore. 

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Saw pics this week of Challenge France on the scrap pile. Keel, and rudder gone; doesn't look good for her. Any updates ??

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On 4/23/2021 at 12:58 AM, accnick said:

Yes, indeed. Not a good day.

Eeeek! Which boat do you think that was?

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21 hours ago, Gorby said:

Saw pics this week of Challenge France on the scrap pile. Keel, and rudder gone; doesn't look good for her. Any updates ??

The last photos I was able to locate were dated 2014. Her keel and rudder were off at that stage. A slightly earlier photo shows her hauled out intact but showing signs of neglect. It looks to me as though she's been forgotten about.

That's a shame. She had quite an interesting life. At one stage she was lengthened by having a centre section inserted (this was during her 1986-87 America's Cup campaign). I still remember seeing her suspended from the weighing scales at the Royal Perth Yacht Club Fremantle Annex in 1986.

She's not the only "Fremantle Twelve" that has died. St Francis (one of the Gary Mull Twelves) has already been broken up. Australia III and Australia IV (renamed Bengal III and Bengal II) were sitting rotting on hard stands at a back water marina in Malaysia the last time I looked. Very sad, given they were the last Twelves that Benny Lexcen designed.

The two main areas where Twelves are still raced seriously are Europe and America. These aren't cheap boats to maintain and race - their owners are quite cashed up. Most of the Fremantle Twelves still racing seriously have been updated (in some cases virtually rebuilt). Permanent backstays seem to be a thing of the past. Keels and rudders have been replaced on a lot of these boats (Courageous is a very good case in point.). The latest sails are no longer the yellow Kevlar/Mylar laminates that predominated in 1987 - it's now Carbon Fibre cloths.

However, there hasn't been a new Twelve built for years (except for the odd recreation of a classical long keel design).

So while the Twelve Metre Class still survives, I don't think it could be said that it's expanding.

Cheers!

 

Karl

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On 4/24/2021 at 7:29 AM, Karlthevet said:

The last photos I was able to locate were dated 2014. Her keel and rudder were off at that stage. A slightly earlier photo shows her hauled out intact but showing signs of neglect. It looks to me as though she's been forgotten about.

That's a shame. She had quite an interesting life. At one stage she was lengthened by having a centre section inserted (this was during her 1986-87 America's Cup campaign). I still remember seeing her suspended from the weighing scales at the Royal Perth Yacht Club Fremantle Annex in 1986.

She's not the only "Fremantle Twelve" that has died. St Francis (one of the Gary Mull Twelves) has already been broken up. Australia III and Australia IV (renamed Bengal III and Bengal II) were sitting rotting on hard stands at a back water marina in Malaysia the last time I looked. Very sad, given they were the last Twelves that Benny Lexcen designed.

The two main areas where Twelves are still raced seriously are Europe and America. These aren't cheap boats to maintain and race - their owners are quite cashed up. Most of the Fremantle Twelves still racing seriously have been updated (in some cases virtually rebuilt). Permanent backstays seem to be a thing of the past. Keels and rudders have been replaced on a lot of these boats (Courageous is a very good case in point.). The latest sails are no longer the yellow Kevlar/Mylar laminates that predominated in 1987 - it's now Carbon Fibre cloths.

However, there hasn't been a new Twelve built for years (except for the odd recreation of a classical long keel design).

So while the Twelve Metre Class still survives, I don't think it could be said that it's expanding.

Cheers!

 

Karl

Thanks Mate !!

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi All

It's always good to see a 12 still being maintained and sailed actively.

However Enterprise is certainly not the yacht she was originally. Like Courageous, she has had significant modifications, in line with modern thinking on these boats. Her original more upright transom has been trimmed away, resulting in a more modern raked transom. Her rudder has been updated. Like a lot of the 12's being raced actively, she no longer has a standing backstay (mast bend is now controlled via a combination of mainsail leech tension, jumper stays and running backstays).

Like a lot of these boats, she's had extensive work done over the years.

I guess it boils down to what you want from these boats. Do you want them as a museum piece (in which case you choose a given era for that boat and reproduce everything faithfully)? Or do you want to get them going as fast as possible within the constraints of their category within the 12 metre class (in which case you modify/update the hull and appendages and use the latest materials for sails and rigging)?

I guess I'm a bit nostalgic at heart. Given no new modern 12 metre yacht has been built in decades, each of these boats is historical for me. So (for instance) seeing a boat like Challenge 12 looking the way she does now compared to how she was in 1983 gives me conflicted feelings - even though she is currently beautifully set up and immaculately maintained.

Anyway, as always, it is down to the owners to decide - they're bankrolling these boats after all and campaigning one is not a cheap exercise.

Cheers!

Karl

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16 minutes ago, Karlthevet said:

Hi All

It's always good to see a 12 still being maintained and sailed actively.

However Enterprise is certainly not the yacht she was originally. Like Courageous, she has had significant modifications, in line with modern thinking on these boats. Her original more upright transom has been trimmed away, resulting in a more modern raked transom. Her rudder has been updated. Like a lot of the 12's being raced actively, she no longer has a standing backstay (mast bend is now controlled via a combination of mainsail leech tension, jumper stays and running backstays).

Like a lot of these boats, she's had extensive work done over the years.

I guess it boils down to what you want from these boats. Do you want them as a museum piece (in which case you choose a given era for that boat and reproduce everything faithfully)? Or do you want to get them going as fast as possible within the constraints of their category within the 12 metre class (in which case you modify/update the hull and appendages and use the latest materials for sails and rigging)?

I guess I'm a bit nostalgic at heart. Given no new modern 12 metre yacht has been built in decades, each of these boats is historical for me. So (for instance) seeing a boat like Challenge 12 looking the way she does now compared to how she was in 1983 gives me conflicted feelings - even though she is currently beautifully set up and immaculately maintained.

Anyway, as always, it is down to the owners to decide - they're bankrolling these boats after all and campaigning one is not a cheap exercise.

Cheers!

Karl

Enterprise was significantly modified a number of years ago in both bow and stern, and has been out of class for a long time. The current modifications appear to be done to bring her back into class, even if they are not consistent with one of her early configurations.

It was not unusual for an alloy 12m to be significantly modified during her  active racing career in order to extend her competitive life.

Even woodies like Intrepid have had extensive hull modifications over the years. 

Not many of these older 12s are in their configuration as first launched.

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18 minutes ago, accnick said:

It was not unusual for an alloy 12m to be significantly modified during her  active racing career in order to extend her competitive life.

Even woodies like Intrepid have had extensive hull modifications over the years. 

Not many of these older 12s are in their configuration as first launched.

Hi Accnick

Agree with you totally. Even when the alloy 12s were in their America's Cup campaigns, frequent ongoing modifications were the norm. Australia II revisited Steve Ward's boatyard a number of times before she was retired and the boat you see in Fremantle Maritime Museum is not entirely the boat that won the America's Cup.

Intrepid had three incarnations; as she was when originally launched for the 1967 season, as she was in 1970 after extensive modifications by Britton Chance, then as she was for 1974 when the Britton Chance modifications were reversed, but a different rudder and bustle shape (to 1967) were used. After that she had a chequered career as a trial horse and charter boat, during which time other modifications would have been applied.

Even KZ-7 (Kiwi Magic), the most successful of the fibreglass 12s in 1987 is sporting a different bow these days.

For me personally it's a balancing act between continuing to race these boats as fast as possible (in which case ongoing changes are inevitable) and preserving their historical value. But that's just me, and I don't own one!

Cheers!

Karl

 

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On 6/8/2021 at 7:48 PM, Karlthevet said:

Hi Accnick

Agree with you totally. Even when the alloy 12s were in their America's Cup campaigns, frequent ongoing modifications were the norm. Australia II revisited Steve Ward's boatyard a number of times before she was retired and the boat you see in Fremantle Maritime Museum is not entirely the boat that won the America's Cup.

Intrepid had three incarnations; as she was when originally launched for the 1967 season, as she was in 1970 after extensive modifications by Britton Chance, then as she was for 1974 when the Britton Chance modifications were reversed, but a different rudder and bustle shape (to 1967) were used. After that she had a chequered career as a trial horse and charter boat, during which time other modifications would have been applied.

Even KZ-7 (Kiwi Magic), the most successful of the fibreglass 12s in 1987 is sporting a different bow these days.

For me personally it's a balancing act between continuing to race these boats as fast as possible (in which case ongoing changes are inevitable) and preserving their historical value. But that's just me, and I don't own one!

Cheers!

Karl

 

This is a constant dilemma in the air museum world, where oftentimes the only way that artifacts survive is that they have a prolific second or third life, leaving open the question which era to represent in the restoration. A great example right now is The Swoose, the last surviving early "sharkfin" B-17, being restored at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton. It saw combat service, but it spend most of the war as an executive transport, carrying around some very significant VIPs. The two configurations are very different, so you can only choose one.

In the same way that you put modern radios in old warbirds that still fly, the 12s that race need to be updated for speed and safety sake. I don't think anyone's complaining they're not using period-correct wire sheets!

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44 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

This is a constant dilemma in the air museum world, where oftentimes the only way that artifacts survive is that they have a prolific second or third life, leaving open the question which era to represent in the restoration. A great example right now is The Swoose, the last surviving early "sharkfin" B-17, being restored at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton. It saw combat service, but it spend most of the war as an executive transport, carrying around some very significant VIPs. The two configurations are very different, so you can only choose one.

In the same way that you put modern radios in old warbirds that still fly, the 12s that race need to be updated for speed and safety sake. I don't think anyone's complaining they're not using period-correct wire sheets!

Having raced on a 12m-sized vintage IOR boat with wire sheets, I don't miss those one bit. They eat winch drums, and usually fail at a loaded splice, sometimes with frightening results.

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2 hours ago, Sisu3360 said:

In the same way that you put modern radios in old warbirds that still fly, the 12s that race need to be updated for speed and safety sake. I don't think anyone's complaining they're not using period-correct wire sheets!

Ahh yes, wire sheets. I've had plenty of interesting experiences on the old IOR maxis - surprised no-one was killed!

Wire sheets on 12's were starting to be superseded in the 1983 America's Cup season. John Fitzhardinge pioneered the kevlar sheet splicing that allowed them to be used on Australia II, whereas I believe Liberty was still using wire sheets. By the 1987 season, everyone had stopped using wire.

Cheers!

 

Karl

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  • 4 weeks later...

Some shots of CHALLENGE 12 and one of the KZ '87 boats.

Looks like the jib leads on CHALLENGE 12 are really far aft- is that standard 12M layout or has the rig been moved aft?  The boom goes almost all the way to the transom as well-

Fascinated by these things.....

12 1.jpg

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12 6.jpg

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7 hours ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Some shots of CHALLENGE 12 and one of the KZ '87 boats.

Looks like the jib leads on CHALLENGE 12 are really far aft- is that standard 12M layout or has the rig been moved aft?  The boom goes almost all the way to the transom as well-

Fascinated by these things.....

12 1.jpg

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12 6.jpg

Hi Serge

It looks like Challenge 12 has been lightened. That reduces her measured waterline length. That enables her to be allowed to carry more sail area than originally designed. A lot of the 12 Metre yachts still racing seriously have been modified in this way for the lighter American conditions.

So her boom would definitely be longer. The original boom would have extended to the traveller mounted on the top edge of the transom. I'm now seeing a lot of these yachts with the boom end well past this point. Removing the standing backstay and controlling the mast with the running backstays means that the mainsails can also have more leech roach (curvature). Advances in cloth technology and sail structure design are also helping such sails to maintain their shape.

The forestay tack fitting appears to be set back further from the bow than the original position that I remember, so possibly the rig has been moved aft as well. Either that or the fore triangle measurement has simply been reduced (i.e. the mast not moved aft) so that a larger measured mainsail area is available. That may account for the aft location of the jib lead tracks (overlapping jib area is not counted as sail area). This still has the effect of moving the centre of effort of the entire rig aft, so a larger rudder appears to have been fitted to move the centre of lateral resistance aft to keep the boat balanced.

I also note that her original Lewmar coffee grinder winches have been replaced. The replacement grinder pedestals look to be made out of composite - so there is evidence of an overall attempt to lighten the boat's fittings.

Challenge 12 was the last of the Ben Lexcen designs not to have a winged keel. She was a development of Australia and was a back-up yacht in case the winged keel prototype on Australia II failed. Alan Bond's syndicate was going to have her built, but then chartered her design to a Melbourne syndicate that was eventually run by Chris Pratt. She was built by Steve Ward who'd refined the art of aluminium 12 Metre yacht building to a high level. Challenge 12 and Australia II carried identical sail plans on identical masts (Australia II's spars were white, Challenge 12's spars were grey). According to Ben, she was probably as fast as Australia II but not as maneuverable. Although her 1983 crew members, led by John Savage as skipper, were reasonably accomplished, they weren't as slick as Australia II's crew and that let them down a bit.

It's good to see that she is still being maintained and raced. She looks to be in top condition and very well looked after.

Cheers!

Karl

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A suburb I've just moved to in Brisbane Australia called Newport has some familer names for there streets the suburb was created in the 90's and I was out walking exploring the neighbourhood when I saw the streets Australia and Courageous with boat pictures attached. Quite the find.

Screenshot_20210706-154406_Maps.jpg

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56 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

A suburb I've just moved to in Brisbane Australia called Newport has some familer names for there streets the suburb was created in the 90's and I was out walking exploring the neighbourhood when I saw the streets Australia and Courageous with boat pictures attached. Quite the find.

Screenshot_20210706-154406_Maps.jpg

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What no Plastic Fantastic Place that's Aussies for you....

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23 hours ago, NZL4EVER said:

A suburb I've just moved to in Brisbane Australia called Newport has some familer names for there streets the suburb was created in the 90's and I was out walking exploring the neighbourhood when I saw the streets Australia and Courageous with boat pictures attached. Quite the find.

Screenshot_20210706-154406_Maps.jpg

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Hi

When Alan Bond established his housing development at Two Rocks, Yanchep, West Australia in the early '70s, he envisaged the area being the venue for the America's Cup (after he had won it, of course with Southern Cross). Yes, he was that confident!

He was using the prospect of an America's Cup victory to sell real estate and to build up Yanchep as a destination. So he also named streets in his development after notable America's cup yachts. Those names are still there. See below:

 

Yanchep Road Map.jpg

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On 7/6/2021 at 6:27 PM, Priscilla said:

What no Plastic Fantastic Place that's Aussies for you....

Scroll down to the sewage treatment plant.

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On 4/19/2021 at 12:49 AM, Priscilla said:

Gleam US-11 a 12m with a plush usable interior...

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Originally going to be named Acaba (sic) 

But Alfred Lloyd Tennyson’s inspiration overruled.

Not of the sunlight,
Not of the moonlight,
Not of the starlight!
O young Mariner,
Down to the haven,
Call your companions,
Launch your vessel,
And crowd your canvas,
And, ere it vanishes
Over the margin,
After it, follow it,
Follow The Gleam.
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Interesting thought.

Quite a few 12 meter yachts are still sailing, still racing

How many other America’s cup boats are anywhere but either on the hard in permanent displays or doing their part to enrich landfills?  

Just saying.  

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1 hour ago, Santana20AE said:

Interesting thought.

Quite a few 12 meter yachts are still sailing, still racing

How many other America’s cup boats are anywhere but either on the hard in permanent displays or doing their part to enrich landfills?  

Just saying.  

Even the most complex 12 is cheaper to own and easier to sail than an ACC boat. An experienced sailor can step aboard a 12 and not feel lost.

The ACC boats are all cored carbon, with either Nomex or alloy core. They were designed to be dry-sailed, but not too many people have the facilities or budgets for that.

The 12s are good boats. Older boats like Gleam and the earlier Burgess boats had functional interiors. The interior requirements for 12s were gradually relaxed over the years. Even some more modern 12s have had some semi-functional interior modifications.

The grand prix post-'83 boats are pretty much still in pure racing configuration, as are some of the older boats. Many have been updated per the newer rules to create more practical cockpits and sailing layouts.

The 12s have always been a movable feast of modifications, some for the better, others not,

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16 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

Interesting thought.

Quite a few 12 meter yachts are still sailing, still racing

How many other America’s cup boats are anywhere but either on the hard in permanent displays or doing their part to enrich landfills?  

Just saying.  

J-Class :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

J-Class :ph34r:

Of the J-Class yachts currently sailing, only two of them (Endeavour and Shamrock V) are America's Cup veterans. All the other America's Cup J's were scrapped.

No American Js survived - they were all dismantled and their metal put toward the WW II war effort.

The British Js were essentially abandoned by their original owners during the WW II years. The metal J's Endeavour, Endeavour II and Velsheda (who was never an America's Cup boat) had their lead keels and rigging removed and eventually wound up on mud berths being used as house boats. Shamrock V fared a little better. She was sold to an Italian owner, renamed Quadrifoglio and ketch rigged.

Endeavour survived the experience, but had to be completely rebuilt - the first of the Js to be restored to the level that modern Js enjoy.

Endeavour II did not survive - she was allowed to deteriorate to the point where scrapping was the only option.

Velsheda was restored on a tight budget and got sailing again (for a while she was the only J sailing), but fell on hard times again and wound up a stripped down hulk again. She was rescued yet again, completely rebuilt and refitted.

Shamrock V, the only wooden J still sailing, was restored and refitted.

The modern J class yachts are similar to the pre WW II yachts only in hull form. They carry luxurious accommodation, have auxiliary motors and electric winches. Because of this they are heavier and float lower in the water. The resultant increase in waterline means they don't carry as much sail as they used to. The older J rigs had long booms that precluded a standing backstay - the rig was held back with running backstays. Modern Js sport a hydraulic backstay in addition to the running backstays.

Carbon fibre is now a common component in these rigs, for the sails, spars and rigging. The modern hull builds are either hull replicas of past yachts or derived from unbuilt designs from the J Class era. Modern Js are built in aluminium instead of steel.

There is an active owners association which has devised a set of rules to enable these boats to be competitive with each other and provide fair racing. This includes not being allowed to use modern hull designs.

America's Cup Js were built specifically either to campaign in the Cup or to be trial horses for the contenders. Once the America's Cup stopped due to WW II, the Js were essentially dumped, with only 3 being rescued eventually.

While the others didn't wind up in landfill or a museum, they probably wound up being artillery shells or battleship plating!

12 Metre yachts were chosen post-war because they were more economic to race. But they had been sailing as a class long before they were selected for to be the America's Cup class. In fact they probably predated the Js as a class. So there were quite a few around already prior to the America's Cup phase.

Once the 12s were no longer used for the America's Cup, they faded a bit from the public view but only a few were actually lost. Because they are built to Lloyds Specifications, they are fairly durable. An aluminium 12 is relatively easy to restore (compared to a J Class yacht). There are enough yachts around that nobody has actually built a new modern 12 Metre yacht since 1987 (although a couple of classic 12s have been built in Europe). There is always a yacht laid up somewhere for sale.

If you were really stuck for a yacht and had money to burn, you could always take on the former Australia III and Australia IV. These are abandoned and hard berthed in a backwater marina in Malaysia but still essentially intact the last time I looked.

So, of all the America's Cup classes, I think the 12 Metre yacht has been the most durable.

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In some ways the 12s are very different in that they are not really an America’s Cup class, but a class that was adopted for the AC. All other classes since, and to a large extent as Karl says re the Js, we’re created solely for the AC and had no other race use. That gap seems to now be growing. So maybe we won’t see this thread grow in the coming years beyond the 12s, apart from seeing an occasional ACC boat in a yard gradually rotting away. 
A shame in my view that sport is diverging so much.

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Here's a shot of Stars & Stripes '87 (US-55) and True North after being raised. She received significant damage and was sunk in a hurricane a few years ago. She's been sitting in a boatyard ever since, waiting on either a buyer or the funds to come through to restore her. I just saw a report from the folks in St. Maarten not too long ago showing pictures as she was loaded onto a ship bound for RI for restoration. Nothing was said as to her ownership status, but 12 Meter Regatta in Saint Maarten still list her as part of their fleet. 

StarsStripes-posthurricane.jpg?fit=1920%2C873

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7 hours ago, Chimp too said:

In some ways the 12s are very different in that they are not really an America’s Cup class, but a class that was adopted for the AC. All other classes since, and to a large extent as Karl says re the Js, we’re created solely for the AC and had no other race use. That gap seems to now be growing. So maybe we won’t see this thread grow in the coming years beyond the 12s, apart from seeing an occasional ACC boat in a yard gradually rotting away. 
A shame in my view that sport is diverging so much.

Hi All


In a way, this is history repeating itself. Before the advent of the J Class for the America's Cup, boats were being built that were essentially gigantic throwaway yachts. Defender and Reliance were full on racing yachts built out of tobin bronze and aluminium. Within a relatively short time, both these boats had to be broken up because galvanic corrosion rendered them unsound.

The Js were introduced to level the playing field and curb these excesses. It's a little ironic that they were also found to be too expensive, eventually leading to the introduction of the 12 Metre class to the America's Cup.

When the IACCs came onto the scene, they were originally intended to be able to be modified into IMS ocean racers once their America's Cup phase was over. However subsequent developments in hull designs and construction made that consideration impractical. Moreover, nobody had really thought what to do with these boats post America's Cup. Hence the plethora of high tech hulks littering the scenery.

During the AC class catamarans phase, awareness of recycling started. Although some are still gracing vacant blocks and the odd museum, a lot of them have been broken up and their components recycled.

Now we have the AC75 foiling monohulls. In a way these are very similar in application to the pre J Class yachts. They are constructed only for the America's Cup. Once they are superseded, they are useless. You definitely wouldn't be able to sell them off to a charter company to take tourists for joy rides. The more celebrated of them might wind up in a museum, but the rest will probably be broken up and recycled. (At least I hope so  - leaving them to rot in a vacant lot is just littering!).

The difference between breaking up a tobin bronze yacht and a carbon fibre catamaran or monohull is just a matter of technology - it's still essentially recycling.

When the schooner America won the All Nations Cup in a race around the Isle of Wight, yacht racing at that level was definitely a rich man's sport. In the history of the America's Cup, nothing has really changed in that regard. If you're rich enough, you can play with throwaway yachts. That's what's required to play in the America's Cup nowadays.

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9 hours ago, Brutal said:

Here's a shot of Stars & Stripes '87 (US-55) and True North after being raised. She received significant damage and was sunk in a hurricane a few years ago. She's been sitting in a boatyard ever since, waiting on either a buyer or the funds to come through to restore her. I just saw a report from the folks in St. Maarten not too long ago showing pictures as she was loaded onto a ship bound for RI for restoration. Nothing was said as to her ownership status, but 12 Meter Regatta in Saint Maarten still list her as part of their fleet. 

StarsStripes-posthurricane.jpg?fit=1920%2C873

Hi All

It's my understanding that Stars &  Stripes '87 is still under the same ownership. It took a while to obtain the funds to repair her (I don't know whether that was an insurance thing or there was any other form of fundraising). I gather, once repaired, she will be returned to Saint Maarten to resume her charter work.

The fact that she was feasibly repairable is a testament to the aluminum construction scantlings. A wooden boat with this level of damage would have been far harder to repair. A modern foam sandwich or carbon fibre boat would simply have been written off.

It's a bit concerning that True North KC 87 (the other 12 Metre pictured) no longer appears in the Metre Regatta list of yachts. Maybe she's been written off (I hope not, that would be a shame). It looks like she copped quite a pounding.

All the 12 Metre yachts operated by Metre Regatta are no longer in their full racing trim. There are "Guest Safety Enhancements" (e.g. guard rails and higher booms). The sails are much smaller and look like they are out of single ply dacron. The jibs are on furlers. Having an inexperienced crew mishandling one of the laminated kevlar '87 era sails (or a modern cuben/carbon fibre one for that matter) would be an expensive exercise.

But it's great that these boats have found a home and people are getting to enjoy them!

I guess being a notable boat isn't a guarantee of everlasting life. The original America had rotted to the point of being beyond repair when she was hauled out for storage at Trumpy's Boatyard during WW II. Then a snow storm collapsed the boatyard shed roof and she was gone.

Putting a boat into a museum may be preserving it, but if it's not being used, it's not alive in my mind. That's not what boats were designed for. Australia II sitting still and silent at Fremantle Maritime Museum with a great big bolt through her revolutionary keel (like a pinned butterfly) comes to mind.

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5 hours ago, Karlthevet said:

Putting a boat into a museum may be preserving it, but if it's not being used, it's not alive in my mind. That's not what boats were designed for. Australia II sitting still and silent at Fremantle Maritime Museum with a great big bolt through her revolutionary keel (like a pinned butterfly) comes to mind.

Totally agree with you.

My families old yacht has been locked in a shed for many moons by it’s present long term owners with little evidence that it will ever reach the sea for quite some time a plague on all their houses I say.

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This display in the home of the “Cup but for not to much longer’’ does little justice to the elegance of a AC winner.

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Speaking of 12s from 1987...  this is one of the AMERICA II boats, sitting at New England Boat Works in Portsmouth RI.   I was at the yard the other day and there was a ladder in place and she wasn't locked and I couldn't resist...

 

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A12.jpg

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38 minutes ago, Serge A. Storms said:

Speaking of 12s from 1987...  this is one of the AMERICA II boats, sitting at New England Boat Works in Portsmouth RI.   I was at the yard the other day and there was a ladder in place and she wasn't locked and I couldn't resist...

 

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US 42, 44, and 46. None was particularly good. I believe it was 42 that had multiple chain plate and mast positions designed in to try to get it right.

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2 hours ago, accnick said:

US 42, 44, and 46. None was particularly good. I believe it was 42 that had multiple chain plate and mast positions designed in to try to get it right.

Last time I saw this boat was in 1992 on the set of "Wind" for location filming in Fremantle. She'd been chartered by the production company along with the three Kookaburras. All yachts had been repainted to represent the various contenders in the story. The way her bow was put together interested me - I could see big countersunk screws with Allen Key centre sockets on either side of the stem. Maybe the builders thought that was stronger than just seam welding everything, or maybe it was there to facilitate changing the bow if required.

Kookaburra III also had moveable chain plates, mast step and deck mast ram. The Parry syndicate was fiddling with the configuration of this boat right up to the final defense races against Stars & Stripes '87.

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On 7/18/2021 at 11:25 AM, iorangi said:

Totally agree Priscilla

Hah, we are just in the process of packing up the contents of our house which we have occupied for 40 years plus here in Ponscenby for a move Northward here in the "home of the Cup but not for too much longer" and your magnificent boat will be gracing the walls of our new whare.

IMG_0907.thumb.JPG.095ed79fb68b883531ed3ebb8fa66d17.JPG

 

 

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On 7/22/2021 at 8:03 PM, Priscilla said:

Hah, we are just in the process of packing up the contents of our house which we have occupied for 40 years plus here in Ponscenby for a move Northward here in the "home of the Cup but not for too much longer" and your magnificent boat will be gracing the walls of our new whare.

IMG_0907.thumb.JPG.095ed79fb68b883531ed3ebb8fa66d17.JPG

 

 

Nice boat. How far 'northward' just out of interest? Is Northland about to welcome another Auckland Refugee, by chance? ;-)

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey Sail small world ain’t it we will have to do a beer and blah-de-blah at the Mangawhai Tavern.

F4603764-5615-4EA4-AEC2-005FB39A6A3A.thumb.jpeg.dc710df5e2f696def996b4c8e64017c1.jpeg

 

Yep. Pub's still going strong, but sadly the old wharf has long since gone. Ongoing delays with resource consents (surprise, surprise) to rebuild it - but big progress with boardwalks and tracks linking Mangawhai and Heads communities. 

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On 7/16/2021 at 8:31 PM, Priscilla said:

This display in the home of the “Cup but for not to much longer’’ does little justice to the elegance of a AC winner.

would seem a more appropriate way to display the previous cups boat given how close to capsizing they were ;)

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On 7/26/2021 at 3:59 PM, SloopJohnB said:

I was up there a couple of months ago RC sailing on Lake View, couldn't believe the earthworks happening on Molesworth on the left before the causeway.

"Mangawhai Central" - a new town centre, including 1,000 new house sections and a pile of commercial concerns, including a New World supermarket. At least I won't have to drive 45 minutes (north or south) to buy reasonably priced groceries! 

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

"Mangawhai Central" - a new town centre, including 1,000 new house sections and a pile of commercial concerns, including a New World supermarket. At least I won't have to drive 45 minutes (north or south) to buy reasonably priced groceries! 

Crikey Sail that development doesn't look too far above MHWS.

Separate issue who do you use as a power and internet provider.

1542422815155.thumb.jpeg.dfd7ed6f36ad219724ff525909452f62.jpeg

 

 

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