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Seamanlike vs tactical?


JimB

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So according to the 2013 mark room definition the inside boat with inside overlap rights is only allowed a seamanlike rounding. So wtf is seamanlike as per a leeward mark rounding leaving the mark to port?

 

I have been fighting this battle at my club for years. I always set myself to be inside with rights. Too often I find myself squeezed too close to the mark to maintain decent speed for a fast exit losing the advantage of being inside. One would think the inside boat with rights should be allowed to make a decent rounding?

 

How do you deal with this problem when the term seamanlike is so vague?

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Room is room as Tuna used to say.

You might have mark room but you don't have the right to enter wide and exit tight.

I'll bet you hear folks saying "Turn your boat already" on a regular basis.... as you should.

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So according to the 2013 mark room definition the inside boat with inside overlap rights is only allowed a seamanlike rounding. So wtf is seamanlike as per a leeward mark rounding leaving the mark to port?

 

I have been fighting this battle at my club for years. I always set myself to be inside with rights. Too often I find myself squeezed too close to the mark to maintain decent speed for a fast exit losing the advantage of being inside. One would think the inside boat with rights should be allowed to make a decent rounding?

 

How do you deal with this problem when the term seamanlike is so vague?

 

You don't have 'rights' you have ONE right... the right to mark room.

If you are also keep clear boat why should you have a right to make the right of way boat keep clear of you beyond that (limited) right that you have?

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So I understand you cannot enter wide and exit tight but should you be squeezed so bad you loose most of your speed? If so why bother to fight for inside in the first place? Who the fark gets to decide how tight too tight is? The outside boat should not be controlling the inside boat to the point the inside boat barley makes it around without hitting the mark or the outside overlapped boat.

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Let me try again. Tuna, who was a senior judge before his passing (Google Tuna, Sailing Judge) used to say, 'Room is room".

I recall years ago sitting in the room with Tuna presiding. Can't remember if I was on the boat being protested or asked to serve, anyhow boat was protesting for not being given room. Tuna asked "were you able to round the mark on the correct side?" The answer was yes. "Did you hit the mark?" The answer was no. "Was there contact between the boats?" Again the answer was no. At that point Tuna declared "Room is room." End of hearing.

Basically so long as you can round the mark, in a seaman like way, you were given ample room.

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You're allowed enough room to safely and controllably turn your boat around the mark without hitting either the mark or the outside boat, period.

 

You're not entitled to a perfect approach or a perfect exit, you're entitled to room to turn round a mark, in a safe controlled manner or seaman like.

 

If you are stressed over exit or entry you didn't plan your approach well enough. If you're being pinwheeled, who's fault is that? You can give room, then turn up tight and still be upwind of the inside boat if you plan ahead-- screamers are just like startled dogs, bark bark bark but they don't know why they're barking

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So I understand you cannot enter wide and exit tight but should you be squeezed so bad you loose most of your speed? If so why bother to fight for inside in the first place? Who the fark gets to decide how tight too tight is? The outside boat should not be controlling the inside boat to the point the inside boat barley makes it around without hitting the mark or the outside overlapped boat.

The outside boat only has to give you the room you need to turn without hitting the mark or the outside boat, you cannot drive him down then come up tight, you cannot sail him past the mark, you cannot take up as much room as you like, the outside boat need only allow you to turn from where you are around the mark, not from where you'd like to be-

 

As said by so eloquently in an earlier post, room is room.

 

Ex- you and I are walking towards each other in a narrow hall, you ask me for room to safely pass, I'm obligated to give you the room you require to do so, I'm not required to stop, stand back to the wall, suck in my gut then bow as you pass.

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If you're really squeezed, hit the mark then protest the outside boat for failure to give room, don't try to wiggle through with an inch on either side sculling to avoid contact, that's not seaman like and if you're unable to perform a seaman like rounding, you weren't given room, however, to prove this, you best bet is hitting the mark or the outside boat, the mark is a better choice as hitting another boat is frowned upon. Your protest being I had no room, it was hit them or hit the mark, so I hit the mark instead.

 

Do not do a 360 after the mark, that's why you're protesting the outside boat, your rule 31 will disappear when the rule 18 violation is upheld.

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So according to the 2013 mark room definition the inside boat with inside overlap rights is only allowed a seamanlike rounding.

 

The definition of mark-room does not use the words 'seamanlike rounding'.

 

So wtf is seamanlike as per a leeward mark rounding leaving the mark to port?

 

The 'seamanlike' vs 'tactical' rounding language occurs in US Appeal 20.

 

I have been fighting this battle at my club for years. I always set myself to be inside with rights. Too often I find myself squeezed too close to the mark to maintain decent speed for a fast exit losing the advantage of being inside. One would think the inside boat with rights should be allowed to make a decent rounding?

 

How do you deal with this problem when the term seamanlike is so vague?

 

Cases 20, 103 and 114 discuss 'room' at length. In particular case 103 discusses 'seamanlike'.

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Another thing to consider is this: just because you have established ROW doesn't mean you've established the fastest path round the mark for a given approach. In big fleets making a button hook turn can kill you whereas being outside making a full speed, fully powered turn up can net you a boat length if you recognize the situation early.

 

Rules are rules, they're not there to gain advantages but to allow for a set protocol in a given situation. The advantage comes with forethought. If you've been working all downwind to establish an overlap, at the same time consider where you want to be turning for the mark at the beginning of the leg, don't focus on being at the mark just inside him, that pins your entire leg on one frantic takedown and a sit &spin e-brake turn..he knows this, and he's using it to his advantage... That's why he's squeezing you regularly, so create that overlap earlier and carry him to to stbd lay, then gybe in, if he bails out from under you, fine, he's got an extra gybe to do and you'll have speed and you can then give him a taste of his own medicine-

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... If you're being pinwheeled, who's fault is that?

 

A lot of times, if you're being pinwheeled, you're still outside the zone. 5 boats will almost always take more width in "turning lane" than 3 boat-lengths, some times each boat uses more than a boat-length. If you can slow down and take some transoms to get to the inside, you're golden. I used to pick up 2 or 3 places, sometimes more (occasionally a LOT more), dousing early and making this move.

 

FB- Doug

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most every time i have inside rights at a crowded leeward rounding i pretty much round like i would in absence of any boats around.

 

never been protested or yelled at yet... that after many many roundings.

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You are entitled to room to round the mark sailing your proper course. Round the mark in a seaman like manner taking the course that you would if no other boats were present and you are golden. Don't get pushed around by other boats.

most every time i have inside rights at a crowded leeward rounding i pretty much round like i would in absence of any boats around.

 

never been protested or yelled at yet... that after many many roundings.

Because:

 

 

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,

(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close
to it, and
(B) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

and:

 

18.2 Giving Mark-Room

(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(B) applies.
(B) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
© When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(B),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to
mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her
proper course while they remain overlapped

and:

 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in

the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.
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Not true. From case 21:

 

The definitions Room and Mark-Room do not include any reference to a maximum or minimum amount of space, and no rule implies that the right- of-way outside boat must give a maximum or minimum amount of space. She must give the inside boat the space she needs in the existing conditions to carry out those manoeuvres promptly in a seamanlike way.

 

(Bold mine).

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Again, room to round from where you are not from where you'd like to be-

 

There is no obligation to give the inside boat the room to do any more than turn safely around the mark.

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Not true. From case 21:

 

The definitions Room and Mark-Room do not include any reference to a maximum or minimum amount of space, and no rule implies that the right- of-way outside boat must give a maximum or minimum amount of space. She must give the inside boat the space she needs in the existing conditions to carry out those manoeuvres promptly in a seamanlike way.

 

(Bold mine).

 

 

I think we're splitting hairs here. is there a better/ faster way to do it? In absence of other boats would you make a tactical rounding in a slow or unseaman like way? I would doubt it. Isn't the goal of any good rounding to be as quick and seamanlike as possible, regardless of boats around you or not?

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Not sure I'd agree with that. The ideal rounding is wide in, out tight, not scrubbing off too much speed with high rate of turn.

 

If we consider the bottom mark, the idea of mark room is that windward no longer has to abide by R11, but only to the extent necessary to round the mark. Take more room than that to which you are entitled, and you are no longer taking mark-room, and your R11 breach will not be exonerated by R21.

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You gotta set it up early. And it's part of the continuing dice of windward boat has right of way but leeward boat sets the proper course to the mark problem. If the leeward boat is ahead they'll squeeze you. If they're nose to your tail then expect them to try and spin up on you after the rounding and get clear air. If you need to stomp on them you'll need to set it up so you can do it cleanly enough and don't lose time or more in a collision.

 

And don't get psyched out by the leeward boat.

 

And use the main to flick snotballs at the luff of the leeward boat's kite. Use the main to steer the boat during the rounding. Use it to flush the other guys out the back after the rounding.

 

And go practice practice practice so you can do anything in the corners. Everytime.

 

The prompt and seamanlike rounding part is so you can't sail the boat giving room past the mark. And don't flounder all over the place.

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You are entitled to room to round the mark sailing your proper course. Round the mark in a seaman like manner taking the course that you would if no other boats were present and you are golden. Don't get pushed around by other boats.

 

(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to
mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her
proper course while they remain overlapped

and:

 

 

I'll take your red and raise you and underline.

 

The underlined is important and is the reason you are seldom allowed to sail your proper course.

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Not true. From case 21:

 

The definitions Room and Mark-Room do not include any reference to a maximum or minimum amount of space, and no rule implies that the right- of-way outside boat must give a maximum or minimum amount of space. She must give the inside boat the space she needs in the existing conditions to carry out those manoeuvres promptly in a seamanlike way.

 

(Bold mine).

 

 

I think we're splitting hairs here. is there a better/ faster way to do it? In absence of other boats would you make a tactical rounding in a slow or unseaman like way? I would doubt it. Isn't the goal of any good rounding to be as quick and seamanlike as possible, regardless of boats around you or not?

 

Your objective is to make a fast rounding in the absence of other boats.

The fast rounding will be seamanlike, but it will not be the only semanlike option.

It is possible to make a much slower seamanlike rounding, but you dont want to do that. however in the presence of other boats (who have right of way) you may have to.

 

Your suggestion above is a logical fallacy: (Converse error)

The Tactical rounding is seamanlike

The rules say I must be allowed room to make a seamanlike rounding.

therefore the rules say I must be allowed room to make a tactical rounding.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.........just because a tactical rounding is seamanlike it doesn't mean that any rounding other rounding is not.

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And it's part of the continuing dice of windward boat has right of way but leeward boat sets the proper course to the mark problem.

Whaaaaat?

 

Please post link to the rules in the separate and not very parallel universe you are referring to.

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Let me try again. Tuna, who was a senior judge before his passing (Google Tuna, Sailing Judge) used to say, 'Room is room".

I recall years ago sitting in the room with Tuna presiding. Can't remember if I was on the boat being protested or asked to serve, anyhow boat was protesting for not being given room. Tuna asked "were you able to round the mark on the correct side?" The answer was yes. "Did you hit the mark?" The answer was no. "Was there contact between the boats?" Again the answer was no. At that point Tuna declared "Room is room." End of hearing.

Basically so long as you can round the mark, in a seaman like way, you were given ample room.

http://www.allatsea.net/regattas-behind-the-scenes-here-comes-the-judge-arthur-tuna-wullschleger/

 

if that helps ;-)

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So I understand you cannot enter wide and exit tight but should you be squeezed so bad you loose most of your speed? If so why bother to fight for inside in the first place? Who the fark gets to decide how tight too tight is? The outside boat should not be controlling the inside boat to the point the inside boat barley makes it around without hitting the mark or the outside overlapped boat.

 

Room means room. There is nothing about the right to maintain your speed (if any) at a mark if there are boats overlapped to windward.

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In Boston as we approach leeward mark at about 6 lengths we start shouting (depending on if you're inside or outside)

  • "Room, room, I need some goddamn room to get around this mark"
  • or
  • "Goddamn it you don't need that much room"

At the mark we then round and continue on the race.

aa

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In Boston as we approach leeward mark at about 6 lengths we start shouting (depending on if you're inside or outside)

  • "Room, room, I need some goddamn room to get around this mark"
  • or
  • "Goddamn it you don't need that much room"

At the mark we then round and continue on the race.

aa

 

Yep...

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Again, room to round from where you are not from where you'd like to be-

 

There is no obligation to give the inside boat the room to do any more than turn safely around the mark.

 

+1

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In Boston as we approach leeward mark at about 6 lengths we start shouting (depending on if you're inside or outside)

  • "Room, room, I need some goddamn room to get around this mark"
  • or
  • "Goddamn it you don't need that much room"

At the mark we then round and continue on the race.

aa

I like to say," I've given you the fucking grand canyon...you get no more" ;-)

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One of the guys I race against has this move- does it occasionally where as inside boat at a leeward rounding, will steer towards the boat that is giving him room at nearly the last moment just as his (the insides) bow is almost at the mark. Then in reaction and in order to avoid a collision, the outside boat steers hard away. Then the inside boat returns to course & rounds the mark with the outside boat losing a half boat length or more as a result. #@%&*^!

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You are allowed to sail the fast way around the mark.

 

Christ on a fucking bike NO. It's now 2014, prior to 2013 it was hazy, now it's not.

You still can't take all the room you want but it also doesn't mean you need to scub off all your speed pinwheeling around it. You simply need to round the can the same way you would if the other boat wasn't there. No need for anything drastic here.

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You simply need to round the can the same way you would if the other boat wasn't there

Except that there is a boat there with leeward rights on you who can push you up as high as they choose. That's why they have to allow you mark room, to stop them pushing you into the mark. Not so you can take a lovely wide line around on the inside.

 

Edit: - someone pointed it out earlier, you're not the only boat with rights, you're both burdened with different responsibilities here.

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It so does mean you could possibly 'need to scrub off all your speed pin wheeling around it" Read the def of Mark-room. The only time you can round the same way you would if the other boat wasn't there is if the other boat isn't there. Mark-Room doesn't give you right of way. It gives you 'room' to round the mark.

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Sometimes it's a battle not worth fighting.

 

I was sailing on a boat at WIRW years ago and we were the outside boat overlapping four others coming in to the circle. The skipper says, "hit the brakes", main yarded in, overlap broken. Controlled Gybe drop. Come in wide, reaching to the mark, exit tight, scooping all the other boats rounding tight and exiting wide (not to mention avoiding all the screaming and confusion). Rolled over them to weather.

 

Old trick, but works like a hot damn in the right situation.

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It so does mean you could possibly 'need to scrub off all your speed pin wheeling around it" Read the def of Mark-room. The only time you can round the same way you would if the other boat wasn't there is if the other boat isn't there. Mark-Room doesn't give you right of way. It gives you 'room' to round the mark.

 

And here's the def of 'room' (which is the only def that matters)

 

" Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to

comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while
manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way."
I would argue that any reasonable attempt to round a leeward mark will be deemed prompt.
And any crazy ivan hairpin turn around a mark would not be deemed seamanlike. Conversely a smooth consistent radius'd turn would be deemed seamanlike.
of course you can't sail boat lengths away from the mark and gradually head up to a tight reach prior to the mark, but who would do that anyway? It's slower!
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It's not the only def that matters. So does Mark-room and rule 18. While a smooth consistent radius might be seamanlike, you need to sail to the mark and round it and if that means burning off speed so be it.

 

For our situation the pertinent word/def in the MR rule (18) is 'room' cause that's what were trying to determine. Sailing 'close' to a mark in the rule is completely undefined, thus ambiguous. Look 'close' up in websters and see if you can get a concise def for sailing around a mark... is it 1", 1', 10', I don't know they all seem close to me. point is 'close' is not a objectively measurable term in the rule. That leaves the word "room' and the prompt and seamanlike bs.

So i go back to a reasonably radiused turn being fully legal, and what i will continue to do this weekend...

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Ok, being the guy who started this thread here is what I have learned. Prior to the circle I will be more aggressive in asserting my proper course as leeward boat. My proper course is going to be higher than that of the boat overlapped to windward of me. They probably wont like that much but it will leave me with the room I need at the mark.

 

My beef with inside boat at the mark not allowed his proper course, only room to round, is it is likely he was the only one planning his approach. The guys coming in from the outside had no plan and in a lot of cases no farking clue.

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You should have no beef as you are not only going to be inside boat but also leeward so you get to dictate how you want to round, not only do you get mark-room but you are also the right of way boat. Windward gets nothing from you in that case and you are free to make a tactical rounding. Just remember if 17 is applicable not to sail above proper course. The problem comes in when the windward boat is going to be the inside boat. Then they only get room to sail to the mark and room to round it. If that causes them to slow down so be it.

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I should reword my last sentence softening it a bit. Should have said the guys comming into the circle from the outside overlapped by an inside boat most likely had no mark rounding plan. I'm my view they screwed up and should be at the mercy of the boat that executed their plan to be inside.

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We often have quite complex rule discussion on this board where it's quite clear that a fair number of people don't understand the subtleties. No big surprised there, most the scenarios are rare edge cases that most people will never see.

 

Here we have a simple every day case and it's clear that a large number of people don't understand it either. What's even more frightening is a large number of people seem to have taken part in this thread and still don't seem to realise that they don't have a fucking clue.

 

Mark rounding just got more frightening.

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Jim - just get ahead of those pesky Martins and then it won't be a problem anymore!

 

Yes, that is the problem on short course and our typical 6 knot wind.

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