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No Fly List Is Unconstitutional


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5 minutes ago, Zonker said:

A lot of these are just plain assholes refusing to wear masks NOT people who were in the Capitol.

Well, fuck them too. I'm sure there's a lot of crossover, so fuck them twice.

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15 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Of course its a problem, we can fix it after the ship quits sinking and the fire is out.

That's what we said about the Patriot Act...and the repurcussions of the Act (including "no fly" lists...)

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6 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

It's largely his go to.

Soon, he'll be posting links to his own posts.

Soon? are you new.

Polytedium Tom talks to himself as much as to others. I've seen strips of ignores like this one 10 lines long.

You've chosen to ignore content by Polytelum Tom. Options

You've chosen to ignore content by Polytelum Tom. Options
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34 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I am not exactly a fan of the No Fly List but then I can't think of a reason that Shitstain can't be placed on it today. 

I can.

On 6/24/2014 at 6:09 PM, Olsonist said:

I've always thought it was unconstitutional.

 

2 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

There used to be a Tom who sailed suncats and had a cowmaran. Now all i hear about is a bunch of other Toms.

Cool! I'd like to meet him. I only know one person who has a cowmaran. I'm jockeying for third in line to inherit it. It would be nice to have a shot at the one owned by this Tom fellow.

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I'm pretty sure that me thinking something is unconstitutional isn't much of an impediment to others actually doing that thing which I think is unconstitutional. Well, I could be wrong about that and actually have these amazing superpowers that I was never aware of.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Schumer’s Insurrectionist No-Fly List Is a Civil Liberties Nightmare

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...Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., called for the FBI, Transportation Security Administration, and Department of Homeland Security to put rioters who stormed the Capitol on a no-fly list, barring them from airline travel in the U.S. “Any of those who were inside the Capitol should not be able to fly and should be placed on the no-fly list,” Schumer said

...

“Doubling down on use of the no-fly list will entrench an error-prone and unconstitutional system, and communities of color will continue to bear the brunt of it,” said Hina Shamsi, director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project.

...

The no-fly list is considered by many to be an emblematic example of an abusive security measure initially justified on the grounds of finding and stopping terrorists, but which quickly expanded well beyond its intended mandate. The list has been abused to target individuals who were not suspected of terrorism, including for the alleged purpose of pressuring them to become government informants.

Most troublingly, it operates in an manner almost entirely without due process, empowering security agencies to deprive individuals of their rights and making challenges difficult for those who wind up listed. The list’s targets often had little means to fight back and preserve their rights. “The process to clear your name from it is a due-process nightmare,” said Shamsi.

...

“I think giving the government the ability to prevent people from flying on the basis of officers’ hunches, or on the basis of evidence that isn’t tested in court, is an invitation to unfairness and abuse,” said Jameel Jaffer, a civil liberties attorney and director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. “In my view, the government’s terrorism blacklists are a cautionary tale, not a promising model.”

...

Civil libertarians have been fighting to bring the power of the no-fly list under control — in 2019, then-Rep. Justin Amash, L-Mich., introduced a bill seeking to prevent anyone from being placed on the list absent a federal terrorism conviction — but have gotten little traction.

...

The no-fly list itself already has a record of targeting marginalized communities. “The no-fly list is notorious because from the beginning, it has unjustly targeted Muslims, brown, and Black people based on vague and over-broad criteria,” Shamsi, the ACLU lawyer, said.

Moreover, tools for dealing with criminality like that seen in the Capitol riot — tools that are accountable to courts — already exist. “If the government has good reason to believe that a person is planning to engage in violence or other unlawful activity, we want the government to arrest the person, not just prevent him or her from flying,” Jaffer, the Knight First Amendment Institute director, said.

...

 

I like the suggestion by Amash that a conviction should precede punishment. I agree with Jameel Jaffer that the list should be viewed as a cautionary tale, not a promising model. I also agree with ACLU lawyer Shamsi that clearing your name from the list is a due process nightmare. As we saw in 2015, clearing your name from the list is not enough to convince some people that some rights should be restored...
 

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...

As the New York Times reported on Wednesday, the Democrats’ preferred reform would not only bar anybody who is currently on the list from buying guns, but would also restrict “anyone who had been on the list in the preceding five years.” How is this even remotely acceptable? Put in plain English, advocates of the measure are attempting to usher in a legal regime within which the state cannot only pick and choose whom it wishes to punish without a trial, but within which those who have been falsely accused will continue to suffer for at least half a decade. Or, stated another way, to lose your 2nd Amendment rights you need not be suspected of anything, you need only to have been suspected of something at some point in the recent past.

...

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Polytelum Tom said:

If these people are too dangerous to be allowed on planes, should they be allowed to vote?

Depends. Is the kind of harm prevented by adding them to the No Fly List also prevented by them not voting?

 

also...depending on where they live, the felony will take their right to vote away anyway

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Depends. Is the kind of harm prevented by adding them to the No Fly List also prevented by them not voting?

 

also...depending on where they live, the felony will take their right to vote away anyway

I'd say more harm is prevented by denying the vote. Who cares if someone flies? Of course, this is kind of a dangerous road, because sometimes it might be a TeamD demographic that's being deprived of voting.

As for your second observation, that happens after a conviction. As noted above, I'm ok with lots of different punishments after a conviction. But I was talking about punishment prior to any conviction so not sure how your point is relevant to what I was saying.

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On 1/24/2021 at 7:06 AM, Pedagogical Tom said:

As the New York Times reported on Wednesday, the Democrats’ preferred reform would not only bar anybody who is currently on the list from buying guns, but would also restrict “anyone who had been on the list in the preceding five years.” How is this even remotely acceptable?

How about preventing anyone who has been on the list from voting for five years?

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  • 2 months later...

I Refused to Become an FBI Informant, and the Government Put Me on the No Fly List
 

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...

The FBI kept asking to meet with me, and under their pressure, I did not think I could refuse. Meanwhile, the anxiety and stress meant I couldn’t sleep or eat properly. For two months, the meetings, threats, and harassment continued until I felt I had no choice but to send my family away to protect them. I booked my wife and children on a flight to Lebanon, where we have family. I joined them a few weeks later, after my employer agreed that I could temporarily work part-time from abroad. I hoped this break would make the FBI leave me alone. About a month later, I attempted to return home.

That’s when the consequences of my refusal to work for the FBI as an informant hit. When I got to the airport, the airline agent said I couldn’t board my flight and needed to contact the U.S. government. I knew the government had a No Fly List, which bans people from flying, and feared I was on it. I immediately sought answers and a month later, I got official confirmation: I was on the No Fly List. 

In the two years since then, I’ve tried to get off the No Fly List using the redress procedure the government provides. But the government won’t even give me its reason for putting me on the No Fly List, any evidence it thinks might justify an indefinite flying ban, or a hearing to clear my name. This is wrong, and it violates my rights as an American to basic due process. I’ve learned that this purgatory is not unusual. I was shocked to learn U.S. citizens and residents on the No Fly List can spend years seeking answers and information, without even learning why the government put them on the list in the first place.

For my family and me, this entire ordeal has been devastating. I exercised my right not to work as an FBI informant in my community and the government punished me. Because I’m on the No Fly List, I cannot visit family and friends abroad, or travel for work or to fulfill my religious pilgrimage obligation as a Muslim. My wife and I worry that her naturalization application is at risk. I worry that government officials who claim to protect all Americans equally can violate our constitutional rights with impunity. 

Now with the help of the ACLU, I’m bringing a lawsuit to challenge the government’s actions and placement of me on the No Fly List. I want a fair process to clear my name. And I want to make sure no one suffers what my family and I have suffered.

 

Good for the ACLU for helping him and I hope he's successful.

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