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Bob Perry

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I'm afraid I don't even like the spars as a whole. The mast is probably OK.

 

The ensign is nice.

 

Does anyone remember that card game HAPPY FAMILIES where you made unfeasible composite people? That boat reminds me of that.

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It makes me think if a turbo frankenboat. Big rig, deep fin keel, yet it will still be slowish uphill with only 30' of waterline. Light construction, huge asso, but nothing out back sit on and plane. All that beautiful paint will get fucked as soon as you race it

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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

 

 

Meh.

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It would look a lot better if the deck line was at the level of the cover stripe.

 

Send it to George Barris and have it sectioned.

 

Get him to paint it dark blue afterwards.

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What a tough crowd!

 

The problem here is using a heavy displacement boat style for a light displacement boat. To have headroom, you need freeboard. If they had lower freeboard, you would complain that the house was too high, and the interior was too cramped.

 

Better perhaps, to go with a style that's not so permanently written on the memory:

 

myth-of-malham.jpg

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What a tough crowd!

 

The problem here is using a heavy displacement boat style for a light displacement boat. To have headroom, you need freeboard. If they had lower freeboard, you would complain that the house was too high, and the interior was too cramped.

 

Better perhaps, to go with a style that's not so permanently written on the memory:

 

myth-of-malham.jpg

 

Headroom does not necessarily require freeboard. Check out this 36 footer. A bit of deadrise and a well designed cabin makes for a pretty good compromise, IMO.

post-76289-0-09091200-1466987883_thumb.jpg

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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

 

 

Meh.

 

 

That photo does not do the boat justice. M42s are much prettier in person.4077969_20121030121422_5_LARGE.jpg

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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

 

 

Meh.

 

 

That photo does not do the boat justice. M42s are much prettier in person.4077969_20121030121422_5_LARGE.jpg

 

 

Different boat, and a much more photogenic angle of heel. You can hide a lot of freeboard like that.

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Bob,

 

I've been trying to catch up on this great build but am probably six months behind actual build/progress. I really dig it...but I'll jump in w what Savoir was saying about the hard edged Hawse pipe/eyelet...if your talking 4 boats that will be variously anchored/moored/docked for extended periods of time...they might have (weekly?) maintenance...a lot of chafe can happen in a short amount of time...if bad weather shows up.

 

Other thought I had was about the clear coat carbon. What is the plan while each of the four boats are idling in the sun awaits the owner.? A canvas cover regimen? Or...I know there are verying degrees of uv resistant clearcoat varnish...is there a v resistant clearcoat finish for carbon etc.?

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The problem here is using a heavy displacement boat style for a light displacement boat. To have headroom, you need freeboard. If they had lower freeboard, you would complain that the house was too high, and the interior was too cramped.

 

I think this is exactly right, Semi. With a light displacement boat there's little volume under the water, so you need freeboard. Further, freeboard makes the overhangs look weird. And you're stuck with no waterline length.

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That photo does not do the boat justice. M42s are much prettier in person.4077969_20121030121422_5_LARGE.jpg

 

 

Yes, monsoon. Any boat with high freeboard looks better heeled over so as to hide the freeboard.

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Other thought I had was about the clear coat carbon. What is the plan while each of the four boats are idling in the sun awaits the owner.? A canvas cover regimen? Or...I know there are verying degrees of uv resistant clearcoat varnish...is there a v resistant clearcoat finish for carbon etc.?

 

Think of the situation with clear-coated teak brightwork. Same thing. The only way to get UV protection is with something not clear. Paint works.

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That photo does not do the boat justice. M42s are much prettier in person.

 

Different boat, and a much more photogenic angle of heel. You can hide a lot of freeboard like that.

 

 

Same boat, but the shorter cabin trunk version. I still say they're better looking in person.

4708895_20140519120140485_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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We have one in our area. When you seen the whole boat out on the water, The rig looks out of scale. The lighter, modern boat carries more sail since the keel is deeper and the rig is much lighter. Modern sailcloth and other gear also enable boats to carry more sail than they used to.

 

Morris 42

hinckley-sou-wester-34.jpg
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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

I race in the same fleet as this boat... Not a fan of how it looks in real life - the sheer is off and the house doesn't work for me. The sheer is not as exaggerated but somewhat similar look as the bulbous looking sheer a lot of Fontaine's designs have.

This owner replaced his old M42 with the M42x - Night and day performance difference. The sprit is ugly, but the big spinnaker and new rig/keel makes a tremendous difference.

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Re. clear-coated CF, I have two Forespar CF spin poles that are clear-coated. Perhaps I'm abusing them somehow, but after a few years the coating starts peeling in places and turns milky around the peeling spots. I had one of them stripped and re-coated (as part of a repair, after I broke the pole in a nasty round-down), and a few years later it's peeling too.

 

I've got a cover for one of the poles, but I never use it. Anyway, I can't see putting a cover on a CF mast.

 

Has anyone else seen similar clear-coat problems?

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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

For a boat these colours, the spars should be painted (white), the boom is far too thick for the mast and boat (I know its a furler and can't be helped but we're talking aesthetics here), she's riding way high in the water, and the horizon isn't level so she looks as though she's pointed uphill.

Fix all that and she'd look a lot better.........

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What a tough crowd!

 

The problem here is using a heavy displacement boat style for a light displacement boat. To have headroom, you need freeboard. If they had lower freeboard, you would complain that the house was too high, and the interior was too cramped.

 

Better perhaps, to go with a style that's not so permanently written on the memory:

 

myth-of-malham.jpg

 

Myth of Malham ought to be in the coolboat thread. She used to carry 15 sails on board, must have been pretty packed down below.

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Re. clear-coated CF, I have two Forespar CF spin poles that are clear-coated. Perhaps I'm abusing them somehow, but after a few years the coating starts peeling in places and turns milky around the peeling spots. I had one of them stripped and re-coated (as part of a repair, after I broke the pole in a nasty round-down), and a few years later it's peeling too.

 

I've got a cover for one of the poles, but I never use it. Anyway, I can't see putting a cover on a CF mast.

 

Has anyone else seen similar clear-coat problems?

 

The OPB that I race on has a carbon spin pole with clear coat. It has a canvas cover on it about 320 days a year, but it still needs occasional re-coating. The owner got a very high quote to have this done - similar to the price of a new pole - so he did it himself. I'll ask what he used, probably WEST.

 

It's still nice because a CF pole hurts a little less when I drop it on the foredeck's head.

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I'll be up at the Betts yard Thursday and I'll Jim about the longevity and variables of clear coating.

 

I'd be interested to know if the maintenance is any more difficult than maintaining clear coating on teak.

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A smart guy that has been around boats and maintained them said to me once, "The only reliable way to make something UV resistant is to make it less clear." I still had some wishful thinking in me but in the end he was right, in my view.

 

I like the idea of making some of the carbon pretty, though. The boats are made of carbon, not wood. Like with wood brightwork I think it will be worth the effort.

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Here's a new boat with clear-coated carbon spars and bowsprit. Morris M42x. Tom Morris's last boat was a M42. This one is a "racier" version.

 

080315BARN-4614-1_zpsfnv31eun.jpg

For a boat these colours, the spars should be painted (white), the boom is far too thick for the mast and boat (I know its a furler and can't be helped but we're talking aesthetics here), she's riding way high in the water, and the horizon isn't level so she looks as though she's pointed uphill.

Fix all that and she'd look a lot better.........

 

 

Just appreciated that the coachroof slants up forward. Weird. Level with the horizon is better, regardless of what's going on with the hull.

 

5625673_20160202093551719_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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I spoke to Jim Betts. He says at least 5 years and with the newest UV inhibitors maybe even longer.

Where you are, yes. Are any of the boats heading to tropical places? UV is multiple times higher here. A clear coated pole lasted about 5 years kept inside the boat. The clear coated prodder end lasted about 18 months out in the weather.

Would you mind asking Jim exactly what he intends to use for it protection? Ie stabilised epoxy, a separate clear?

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Bob,

Seeing as I'm going through the big "D", I don't think I have the dinero for # 5. That just went to a different bank account that I don't control!

Oh well, such is life. Losing 3/4 of a million sucks but I have my dog.

 

 

And a larger percentage of women are loath to share the blame for relationships ending.

 

Divorced fathers are more likely than divorced mothers to sink into depression—which they are 10 times more likely to experience than married men—and to treat their depression by self-medicating with alcohol. Relatedly, divorced men are also more likely to abuse harder drugs. All of these issues lead to increased mortality rates, which researchers estimate may be as high as 250 times that of married men. Divorced men also die by their own hands, at a rate 39 times that of married men.
The role of toxic masculinity, which can be lethal even in small doses, has an undeniable role to play here. Women are often allowed to express feelings of loss, grief and sadness after divorce in a way societally imposed constructions of masculinity deny men. The very human need to confront those feelings, when repressed, forces their sublimation into unhealthy and often risky behaviors. What’s more, women often have wider and more emotionally profound support networks than men. Not because men prefer it that way, but because of our culturally held notions of how relationships between heterosexual men should function and look.
While women may fare better than men after divorce, they seem to show a marked unwillingness to share responsibility for the demise of their marriages—and by large margins.
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"250 times that of married men"

 

So, a man who divorces at age 50 is 250 times as likely to die by age 55 as a man who remains married.

 

Don't believe it.

 

It doesn't say "by age 55", does it? That figure sounds dubious to me too, but it's long been known that unmarried men have higher a mortality rate; very plausible that divorce raises it further. It doesn't negate the gist of the article.

 

From their yin point of view, women are often blind to cause and effect - things "just happen".

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"250 times that of married men"

 

So, a man who divorces at age 50 is 250 times as likely to die by age 55 as a man who remains married.

 

Don't believe it.

 

Apparently someone is bad at math. "250 times" appears widely in searches but the source they all refer to says "250%" (percent), which means 2.5 times:

 

The Influence of Divorce on Men's Health (with citations)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259167139_The_Influence_of_Divorce_on_Men's_Health

 

mortality rates up to 250% higher for unmarried men

Stay healthy and sane, austin1972!

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Ranti:

I asked Jim about the clear coat and he says he uses Awgrip Ultru.

 

I had a great visit at the yard today as usual but I took no photos. Boomer came with me and he is such a c good photographer that I thought his pics would be sufficient. But being a perfectionist type you will have to wait for Boomer to edit his collection.

 

What happened at the yard today: I received a very nice birthday present from the yard. Photos to follow. Base for dodger is being prep'ed on the deck, first tiller is finished and beautiful. Auto pilot bracket is being attached to the rudder and a bunch of other small details are being worked on. Nothing spectacular. I'm sure Boomer's photos will tell the story.

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I asked my skipper what he used on the CF spin pole, and he didn't know the name of the product, but that it was a two part goop supposedly made for the job. He went on to say "next time, I'll just paint it" I expect this will happen in less than 5 years.

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I see more and more unidirectional carbon, not the plain weave or twill fabric that looks good under a gloss clear coat. Unidirectional looks good to me clear coated also, but a matte finish or low gloss finish looks great on uni too and might be tougher and show less wear.

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Bob and I had a fun morning driving up to Jim's shop, then taking care of business. Then later taking the scenic route home stopping by different local farmers markets and such, and checking out a gentleman's farm that's for sale. As has been said and seen from Bob's pics, Jim and his crew run professional and clean shops. Today was more of a recon shoot for me and getting meet the crew.

 

27908819692_427ca8613d_h.jpg

 

 

27933169601_63a7c76f18_h.jpg

 

 

27397500483_d45853b198_h.jpg

 

 

27908844752_d87fa9d106_h.jpg

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"250 times that of married men"

 

So, a man who divorces at age 50 is 250 times as likely to die by age 55 as a man who remains married.

 

Don't believe it.

Apparently someone is bad at math. "250 times" appears widely in searches but the source they all refer to says "250%" (percent), which means 2.5 times:

 

The Influence of Divorce on Men's Health (with citations)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259167139_The_Influence_of_Divorce_on_Men's_Health

 

mortality rates up to 250% higher for unmarried men

Stay healthy and sane, austin1972!

Well, well... Mis-information on the Internet can be fixed. I dropped a note to the editors at alternet.org using the "REPORT TYPOS AND CORRECTIONS" button at the bottom of the page, citing the original source, and they fixed the article!

 

Women Are Far Happier and Less Regretful After Divorce, but a Lot of Men Fall Apart in Destructive Ways

And a larger percentage of women are loath to share the blame for relationships ending.

http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/report-women-happier-after-divorce-men

 

All of these issues lead to increased mortality rates, which researchers estimate may be as high as 250 percent higher than that of married men. Divorced men also die by their own hands, at a rate 39 percent greater than married men.

Being pedantic isn't always bad, eh SemiSalt?

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Boomer & Bob,

 

Thank you so much for sharing these photos and narrative.

This has been a marvelous education, and very enjoyable to watch!

When I log on here every day, this is one of the first threads I run to - great stuff!

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Thank all! It was a real pleasure checking out the build yesterday, and the ride up and back to the shack was equally so. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to document the builds as it progresses on the Carbon Cutters. When I first went in the main shop, one of the workers was vacuuming the shop floor, we just used brooms and a dustpan in my grandpa's shop.

 

27397403523_5ce6075d80_h.jpg

 

27731072560_e945f42170_h.jpg

 

27908917172_e351d644da_h.jpg

 

27397482383_0841d7f0c5_h.jpg

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An interesting detail you see in those photos are the two full height bulkheads at the head of the quarter berths. I drew them cut off above counter level. The shop missed that detail and built them full height. Then when we discovered the mistake we started looking at the bhds. in full height. We decided we liked them better that way. We can cut them down but I think they will stay as now built.

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"250 times that of married men"

 

So, a man who divorces at age 50 is 250 times as likely to die by age 55 as a man who remains married.

 

Don't believe it.

Apparently someone is bad at math. "250 times" appears widely in searches but the source they all refer to says "250%" (percent), which means 2.5 times:

 

The Influence of Divorce on Men's Health (with citations)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259167139_The_Influence_of_Divorce_on_Men's_Health

 

mortality rates up to 250% higher for unmarried men

Stay healthy and sane, austin1972!

Well, well... Mis-information on the Internet can be fixed. I dropped a note to the editors at alternet.org using the "REPORT TYPOS AND CORRECTIONS" button at the bottom of the page, citing the original source, and they fixed the article!

 

Women Are Far Happier and Less Regretful After Divorce, but a Lot of Men Fall Apart in Destructive Ways

And a larger percentage of women are loath to share the blame for relationships ending.

http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/report-women-happier-after-divorce-men

 

All of these issues lead to increased mortality rates, which researchers estimate may be as high as 250 percent higher than that of married men. Divorced men also die by their own hands, at a rate 39 percent greater than married men.

Being pedantic isn't always bad, eh SemiSalt?

 

 

Men are less likely to initiate divorce because they know the wife will end up with the kids, the house and 1/2 the remaining money.

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I love the deck pics! They're badass.

Bob, if you have Boomer documenting, you may as well start a book about the builds. He does amazing work (has the eye).

 

Proa - I'm not gong anywhere. Things just ran their course.

I'm at my cottage right now. She is staying in my house in town back in IL. She's mowing the yard this evening.

 

There is no blame or hatred. It just is. There's a certain freedom to it and a heavy exhale from wondering when it would end (because I wasn't breaking my vows; but she had the balls to pull the obvious).

 

It's good. I'm as happy as I've been in 5 years or so. We'll remain good friends and hang out. We have no kids. There was no point to stay together except financially, and I took care of that for her. Example - she doesn't like sailing. My farm scared her with big animals and equipment. It was doomed when we started realizing our differences.

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Ranti:

I asked Jim about the clear coat and he says he uses Awgrip Ultru.

 

I had a great visit at the yard today as usual but I took no photos. Boomer came with me and he is such a c good photographer that I thought his pics would be sufficient. But being a perfectionist type you will have to wait for Boomer to edit his collection.

 

What happened at the yard today: I received a very nice birthday present from the yard. Photos to follow. Base for dodger is being prep'ed on the deck, first tiller is finished and beautiful. Auto pilot bracket is being attached to the rudder and a bunch of other small details are being worked on. Nothing spectacular. I'm sure Boomer's photos will tell the story.

Isn't Awlgrip Ultra a white primer?

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I'll ask Jim again what he uses. I don't really care what he calls it so long as it works. The finish on the first tiller is perfect.

Of course, if you are really curious and don't take my word nothing stops you from calling Jim and asking. Jim is a friendly guy. He might tell you.

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Boomer, (as usual) great pics!

 

Looking at the deck mold....was Janiki ever considered for creating it instead?

27397623664_4c8659acd6_h_zpsdosur8uh.jpg

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Hobs:

Yes, but their cost was too high. If we had used Janeki for the deck I think we would have gone with a female mold. The beauty of the male deck plug is that you can sit on it, place winches and hardware on it, check fairleads and pretend it's a real boat. It's essentially a big mock up.

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I'll ask Jim again what he uses. I don't really care what he calls it so long as it works. The finish on the first tiller is perfect.

Of course, if you are really curious and don't take my word nothing stops you from calling Jim and asking. Jim is a friendly guy. He might tell you.

 

There's Awlbrite. Maybe that's it.

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We use Janicki for all of our large tooling. Bob is right about creating a male mold or plug. You can sit on it, walk around on it and make changes to it before committing to it. If creating female tooling you have to be fully committed to your 3D model being what you want.

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Excuse my ignorance- isn't the male plug shaped like the underside of the deck? And thus not the actual dimensions of the cabin top? Wouldn't I like to visit.

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Tuck:

You must make allowances in the plug for finished part dimensions, i.e. offsets to allow for variations in lam thickness. But as a "mock up" it close enough to get a good feel.

 

I don't think it was easy to see but when I was posting pics of the hull plug being built there were definite areas where you could see the transition from one lam thickness to another.

I'll dig through my photo file and look for an example.

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A male plug for making a mold would be to the finished surface.

 

A male mold would be to the underside of the deck so that when you add the laminate and core you end up with the correct thickness to the outside. The final outside surface then needs to be faired.

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Tuck:

I think this photo of the early days of our hull plug shows what Joe and I are talking about quite well.

 

Note there are two areas: one right at the bottom of the keel fin running down the leading edge and another just beyond the keel "tuck" or garboards where you can see a rebate to allow for different laminate thicknesses so the outside dimension of the finished hull is controlled.

 

If the hull/keel laminate were a uniform thickness, say 1" all over then you would just build the plug skin reduced 1" all over.

 

k%202_zpsvxlyye1h.jpg

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An interesting detail you see in those photos are the two full height bulkheads at the head of the quarter berths. I drew them cut off above counter level. The shop missed that detail and built them full height. Then when we discovered the mistake we started looking at the bhds. in full height. We decided we liked them better that way. We can cut them down but I think they will stay as now built.

 

Looking good, Bob. Getting a real sense of volume/space, as the white finished accommodations are added.

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Thanks for the explanation- I just figured the dimensions on a male mold would be more significantly different, forgetting that the carbon thicknesses on this boat are pretty small for the size of the boat.

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How did they get from the CAD model of the plug to the actual plug? I can't imagine that anyone has a CNC machine with a 40-foot bed. Did they CNC parts and then assemble them? Or did they hand-build the plug and then verify/adjust using measurements with CMMs, theodolites, etc?

 

The answer may be 5000 posts above. If so, sorry.

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Big CNC machines do exist;

One of my suppliers has a 5-axis CNC router that can cover a volume of 10 feet by 10 feet by 20 feet. He had speedboat parked inside it when I visited once.

 

On the other hand, with CNC, it's quite easy to break the item into manageable chunks, and have them assemble together (perhaps with locating pins).

 

That said, I have no idea how Jim built the plugs.

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Janicki has huge CNC machines. They are quite impressive. I don't remember how big they are, but they are big.

 

Brandon's 5-Axis machine must be bigger than 5x10 because he cut out FRANCIS' bulkheads after he laid up the blanks on his flat table. He also cut out the full size hull molds and deck/cockpit/cabin molds for us.

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There are some very big CNC machines. Just Google Janeki Machine in Sedo Wooly. I think he can cut over 70' long.

Kim is correct. CATARI's hull used a CNC cut female mold working from Rasper's 3D files derived from my standard 2D set of hull lines.

 

Jim's process as I remember it goes like this:

I do a standard 2D set of hull lines.

Rasper (Jody Culbert) turns my lines into a 3D model.

Neil at the yard converts Jody's file into a file compliant with their CNC process.

Steve at the yard converts Neil's file into nested patterns for the CNC machine.

Frames are cut and erected on a steel strong back.

The frames are strip planked with poplar.

Then the laminated skin of the plug is applied. I think this has all been well documented in the early posts on the project.

As I have said before, had this been a modern racing boat with an external fin keel a female mold would have been preferred. However, with our full keel and internal ballast in order to control the orientation of the CF fiber material a male plug was far more efficient for this project.

frame_zpsak0nxeyc.jpg

frame%202_zpstutim6xr.jpg

frame%201_zpsmie6xvku.jpg

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I remember when Janeki had two machines and they were struggling to stay in business.

Bob, I remember when Janicki had 1 machine, maybe 25' long in an old barn......must have '95 I think, originally they were going to build and sell the machines....then figured out that more people needed the milling service than a milling machine.

 

Quite an operation now, and there are a couple of other places that do the same (Maine Concepts, Millicam, etc) all very good, Janicki is the highest price as they will mill to aerospace tolerances, the other s mostly stick with marine....

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I remember when Janeki had two machines and they were struggling to stay in business.

Bob, I remember when Janicki had 1 machine, maybe 25' long in an old barn......must have '95 I think, originally they were going to build and sell the machines....then figured out that more people needed the milling service than a milling machine.

 

Quite an operation now, and there are a couple of other places that do the same (Maine Concepts, Millicam, etc) all very good, Janicki is the highest price as they will mill to aerospace tolerances, the other s mostly stick with marine....

 

I remember the old barn, actually a repair/work shed for their logging operations, with one fairly small machine in it. We have worked closely with them ever since. Good people there.

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Tomorrow Laurie Davidson and Ron Holland will be here at the shack for lunch. I'm cooking.

I feel like a kid waiting to meet the Beatles! Laurie contacted me about getting together. We are old friends. I told Kim. Kim said, "It sure would be fun to have Ron here." I contacted Ron and WHL will drive him down from Vancouver. Kim has already met Ron when Ron visited Frankie last year so Kim will also be at the lunch.

 

I'm sure the knob polishers will have a field day with this but it's just a simple reality and they can deal with that. It is my reality. Fortunately I have the whole gang of them on ignore so I'll never know.

 

I will make sure that a lot of photos are taken.

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I can't believe I am having lunch with three legends of Yacht Design tomorrow.

I won't have much to say, it will be a day to just listen. Wow!

 

(Sure, Bob is a good friend, sure I spent a delightful afternoon with Ron last year on FRANCIS LEE, BUT all three together? And I have never met Mr. Davidson before.)

 

(This easily makes up for losing my ride for stage one of R2AK when Tritium broke. My 68th birthday was last week, so happy birthday Kim.)

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Ed:

Bright and early tomorrow morning I am driving out to the "town" ( five stores maybe) of Silvana where Silvana Meats is. I am picking up some baseball cut tenderloin steaks. I'm not really a tenderloin guy but I figure no one will complain. I'll then stop and get some fresh corn on the cob. I'll make a cucumber and onion salad using fresh Walla Walla Sweet onions. That should do it. I'll probably throw the steaks on the BBQ and tell everyone to watch their own steak. WHL will be there and he is an excellent cook so I'm not worried.

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