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What Does Gun Violence Really Cost?


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18 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

In the US we kill each other a year the same as number of deaths in the whole Vietnam war,  Interesting Countries around the world that don't have the 2nd, don't seem to have this problem? 


If you had provided a source for this claim, I would quote where it uses self-murders to reach this result. Since you didn't, I'll just assert it from personal knowledge, having encountered the claim in the past.

The thing about it is, self-murderization has nothing to do with killing "each other." It's about killing oneself. And, as noted in this thread repeatedly, countries around the world that don't have the 2nd, DO seem to have this problem.

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Mother Jones? Thanks for sharing.

Very sorry. Of course. Did your young friend go to the pills? Or to hanging? If he had, the odds fall around 90% that it would all sort out, about the gf. If the young man turned to a gun, t

You must be experienced at this stuff to be so comfortable with your thought, too bad. Most people have never killed another human and probably never will.

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1 hour ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:


If you had provided a source for this claim, I would quote where it uses self-murders to reach this result. Since you didn't, I'll just assert it from personal knowledge, having encountered the claim in the past.

The thing about it is, self-murderization has nothing to do with killing "each other." It's about killing oneself. And, as noted in this thread repeatedly, countries around the world that don't have the 2nd, DO seem to have this problem.

How does the gun death rate in the U.S. compare with other countries?

The gun death rate in the U.S. is much higher than in most other nations, particularly developed nations. But it is still far below the rates in several Latin American nations, according to a study of 195 countries and territories by researchers at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington.

The U.S. gun death rate was 10.6 per 100,000 people in 2016, the most recent year in the study, which uses a somewhat different methodology from the CDC. That was far higher than in countries such as Canada (2.1 per 100,000) and Australia (1.0), as well as European nations such as France (2.7), Germany (0.9) and Spain (0.6). But the rate in the U.S. was much lower than in El Salvador (39.2 per 100,000 people), Venezuela (38.7), Guatemala (32.3), Colombia (25.9) and Honduras (22.5), the study found. Overall, the U.S. ranked 20th in its gun fatality rate.

 
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30 minutes ago, mathystuff said:

20th worst out of 200 or so countries. Argueably 15th if you remove countries so small you have less than 100 cases.

60% as shitholey as afghanistan.

"That was far higher than in countries such as Canada (2.1 per 100,000) and Australia (1.0), as well as European nations such as France (2.7), Germany (0.9) and Spain (0.6)." 

 So We could discuss numbers and graphs all you want ,  Having killed in Nam, I came to the realization that Guns only one purpose to KILL, either your self or some one else , So if your not killing with a gun why own one?

And don't give me shit to protect youself? How are you protecting your self, (as noted ) if you killing yourself? which Tom pointed is the highest %

So going back to what I've always said ,2 kinds of people own guns cowards or killers ( I do make exception for hunting rifles shot guns or bolt action rifles)

And as far as the 2nd , a musket is ok cdn4.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/64/43/musket-r...

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1 hour ago, Not for nothing said:

So We could discuss numbers and graphs all you want ,  Having killed in Nam, I came to the realization that Guns only one purpose to KILL, either your self or some one else , So if your not killing with a gun why own one? 

And don't give me shit to protect youself? How are you protecting your self, (as noted ) if you killing yourself? which Tom pointed is the highest % 

Must have been horrible in vietnam. Glad you got through it.

The problem with having a gun for self protection is that it is a prisoners dilemma. If you're the only one with a gun it's useful for protection, but if a lot of people own guns, any criminal will count on you having a gun and bring his own. Instead of a potential loss of property it turns into a life and death situation. Same for cops if they have to expect guns. They feel threatened and are more likely to pull their guns.

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Cost the second ex student of mine in less than a year was gunned down a few days ago. Jalani was 15 and just started 10 th grade. A shooter walked up behind him on Main Street in Poughkeepsie in daylight and out a hole in his head. 

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1 hour ago, Not for nothing said:

"That was far higher than in countries such as Canada (2.1 per 100,000) and Australia (1.0), as well as European nations such as France (2.7), Germany (0.9) and Spain (0.6)." 

As we have seen on this forum, Canadian suicides don't count as "gun deaths" like US ones do. I think that's because of the gungrabby need to exploit suicides to pad the numbers and pretend they have something to do with shooting "each other" as you deceptively said.

Lots of countries with strict gun control have higher suicide rates than the US.

Lots of shithole countries have lower suicide rates than Spain, which has the lowest rate on your list.

 

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1 hour ago, Not for nothing said:

"So going back to what I've always said ,2 kinds of people own guns cowards or killers ( I do make exception for hunting rifles shot guns or bolt action rifles)

cdn4.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/64/43/musket-r...

I've never understood this argument. Of course when I carry a gun I do so to facilitate killing someone if it becomes necessary. Similarly, when I carry it is because I am afraid that if someone were trying to harm me, or my family, I couldn't avoid that harm unarmed. My ego has no problem admitting that fear. 

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2 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

As we have seen on this forum, Canadian suicides don't count as "gun deaths" like US ones do. I think that's because of the gungrabby need to exploit suicides to pad the numbers and pretend they have something to do with shooting "each other" as you deceptively said.

You are a bullshitter. Your info is wrong, as you are denying social science in your narrative.

Quote

The weakening of national gun control legislation has had an impact on gun crime in Toronto, says Wendy Cukier, head of the Toronto-based Coalition for Gun Control, one of Canada's leading gun control advocacy organizations. "As we progressively strengthened gun control in Canada," she says, "we saw the rates of gun violence, particularly suicide, violence against women and so on, fall. And for the last few years, we've seen an uptick."

(...) By the end of 2019, more than 760 people had been shot in the city (Toronto), 44 of whom were killed, according to Toronto Police. That's triple the number of shooting victims in the city in 2014.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/17/794510796/why-gun-violence-is-surging-in-toronto

 

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2 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

 Canadian suicides don't count as "gun deaths" like US ones do.

I challenge this statement, using the facts on this page.

The same standards were applied within the various countries. Suicides were not subtracted from the Canadian figure. To explain your declarative sentence,, quoted above, you need to provide specific figures for your claim, not a spooled up propaganda thread.

REPEAT AFTER ME.: gun deaths in the USA are five times greater than Canada's, and suicide figures are not germane.

4 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

The U.S. gun death rate was 10.6 per 100,000 people in 2016, the most recent year in the study, which uses a somewhat different methodology from the CDC. That was far higher than in countri.es such as Canada (2.1 per 100,000) and Australia (1.0), as well as European nations such as France (2.7), Germany (0.9) and Spain (0.6).

 

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6 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

The thing about it is, self-murderization has nothing to do with killing "each other." It's about killing oneself.

In the broad picture, the issue is (gun) violence, as morbidity.

The World Health Organization approaches violence as harm to others, or to oneself.

 

Where are you coming from? Do you like suicides? Um, do you like dead kids?

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18 hours ago, jocal505 said:
21 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

 As we have seen on this forum, Canadian suicides don't count as "gun deaths" like US ones do.

I challenge this statement, using the facts on this page.

I can see why you cut out the link before challenging it. The fact is, counting US suicides while omitting Canadian ones is BS but no grabber will object because of the TeamD taboo against saying anything bad about any gun control advocate or policy.

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22 hours ago, dacapo said:

Cost the second ex student of mine in less than a year was gunned down a few days ago. Jalani was 15 and just started 10 th grade. A shooter walked up behind him on Main Street in Poughkeepsie in daylight and out a hole in his head. 

Sorry for your loss. It's about shooting "each other" and not oneself, so kinda off topic in this thread but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. At least, if you're talking about this guy:

Fatal shooting of Poughkeepsie student: 'This was not random,' Rolison says

Quote

 

...

In order to identify the killer, Rolison is calling on community members to call city police or SNUG to say what they witnessed, including any minor details.

“Somebody knows something, and they need to help us do our job and hold people accountable,” Rolison said. “We need people to come forward who will testify against the individual or individuals who are responsible.”

...

 

I've seen statements like that one over and over when looking at "mass" shootings.

What kind of person would NOT come forward with info in such a case? A person afraid of drug war gangs is the answer that leaps to mind.

 

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4 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

I can see why you cut out the link before challenging it. The fact is, counting US suicides while omitting Canadian ones is BS but no grabber will object because of the TeamD taboo against saying anything bad about any gun control advocate or policy.

You made a flakey claim, and it was unsupported by your link (to yourself). For the second time, I request that you  cite the mis-use of statistics you mentioned.

Quote

U.S. military’s suicide rate for active-duty troops up over the past five years, Pentagon says

 

Some 541 service members died by suicide in 2018, including 325 active-duty troops, the report said.

  • The active-duty suicide rate was about 24.8 per 100,000 service members, up from 21.9 in 2017 and 18.7 in 2013.

 

  • The active-duty rates rose especially sharply in the Marine Corps, jumping from 23.4 per 100,000 in 2017 to 31.4, and in the Army, where it increased from 24.3 per 100,000 to 29.5.

 

 

  •  In the same time frame, the rate for men jumped from 19.8 per 100,000 to 22.4 and the rate for women climbed from about 5 per 100,000 to 6.1.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/09/26/us-militarys-suicide-rate-active-duty-troops-rises-fifth-consecutive-year-pentagon-says/

 

Too many dead kids, the poor ones. Cuz CATO is kneeling on their necks, economically speaking, IMO.

Quote

 

Kids Living in Poverty Are 87 Percent More Likely to Die by Gun Suicide, Study Finds

The JAMA Pediatrics study is the first to examine the relationship between child suicide and poverty. Researchers looked at suicides among children 5 to 19 years old in the United States from 2007 to 2016, and compared them to U.S. Census Bureau data showing the percentage of people living below the poverty level in each county.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db352-h.pdf

 

Between 2007 and 2017, the suicide rate for people 10 to 24 years old (edit in the USA) climbed 56 percent, according to a report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released in October 2019.

https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/poverty-gun-suicide-link-study/

Hi dogballs. Bye dogballs.

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1 hour ago, BravoBravo said:

9mm is about $1 a shot these days thanks to BLM and ANTIFA ... if that is any help 

Not for me.  I'm still coming in at around $.20 a round.  Speaking of which, I need to go crank out ~200 rounds for the Glock this afternoon.  Taking SWMBO to the range in the am?  

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33 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Not for me.  I'm still coming in at around $.20 a round.  Speaking of which, I need to go crank out ~200 rounds for the Glock this afternoon.  Taking SWMBO to the range in the am?  

I found some 9MM. Reload for cheap SigSauer ammunition 

I don’t think Mrs BB will be able to handle the G43X, mentally , she is physically capable as many women her size easily do. I think a revolver is in her future 

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26 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Not for me.  I'm still coming in at around $.20 a round.  Speaking of which, I need to go crank out ~200 rounds for the Glock this afternoon.  Taking SWMBO to the range in the am?  

After the many Obama era buying panics I started casting my own bullets. I'm in the sailboat biz so have access to a lot of junk boats with lead keels. My cost is about  a nickel a shot. I also sold my .556 upper and replaced it with a Blackout because the Blackout is much more cast bullet friendly. Just completed  a couple of Form 1s for a suppressor and SBR for the Blackout. First range trip for it is scheduled this week.

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3 minutes ago, F_L said:

After the many Obama era buying panics I started casting my own bullets. I'm in the sailboat biz so have access to a lot of junk boats with lead keels. My cost is about  a nickel a shot. I also sold my .556 upper and replaced it with a Blackout because the Blackout is much more cast bullet friendly. Just completed  a couple of Form 1s for a suppressor and SBR for the Blackout. First range trip for it is scheduled this week.

Very cool.  However, I would be very reluctant to shoot cast lead bullets in a suppressor in a high power rifle like the .300BO UNLESS you have a can that can be taken apart to clean.  Otherwise, you will get really heavy lead fouling that will ruin the suppressor quickly.  That's why most .22LR suppressors disassemble because they are usually lead bullets.  

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4 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Very cool.  However, I would be very reluctant to shoot cast lead bullets in a suppressor in a high power rifle like the .300BO UNLESS you have a can that can be taken apart to clean.  Otherwise, you will get really heavy lead fouling that will ruin the suppressor quickly.  That's why most .22LR suppressors disassemble because they are usually lead bullets.  

I don't shoot plain lead. Everything is powder coated. The suppressor is user serviceable. Titanium tube with endcaps and removable baffles. The majority of Form 1 (DIY) suppressors are built this way. It's been a fun project. I still need to develop subsonic and supersonic  rounds for it. There is a lot of trial and error to follow.

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22 hours ago, F_L said:

I don't shoot plain lead. Everything is powder coated. The suppressor is user serviceable. Titanium tube with endcaps and removable baffles. The majority of Form 1 (DIY) suppressors are built this way. It's been a fun project. I still need to develop subsonic and supersonic  rounds for it. There is a lot of trial and error to follow.

Ah that makes sense.  I got about 10K rounds of 9mm that is powder coated that I obtained in a bulk buy.  I wasn't sure that was good enough to shoot through a can.  Also, supposedly, you're not supposed to shoot lead bullets in a factory glock barrel because of the polygonal rifling (pistoling?), but I wonder if the coated lead bullets are OK because of the coating?  I need to do some research.  I'm only shooting FMJ at the moment for practice, but wanted to try some of these blue bullets.

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23 hours ago, BravoBravo said:

I found some 9MM. Reload for cheap SigSauer ammunition 

I don’t think Mrs BB will be able to handle the G43X, mentally , she is physically capable as many women her size easily do. I think a revolver is in her future 

Isn't a revolver going to have more impulse since there isn't a slide to attenuate it?

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Just send this to our city officials - hope it works.  

Dear _____ City Commissioners and Officials - 

We just had the third shooting incident this year at Neil & Hancock Streets in _______. This time there was a fatality. That location is less than two blocks from our home.

This is not acceptable, for us or anyone else. We have a right to be safe in our homes. Something has to be done.

A number of cities have installed surveillance cameras in high-crime areas. I think it is time to consider it for _________.

Here is a summary of some of the research.

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/27546/412401-Evaluating-the-Use-of-Public-Surveillance-Cameras-for-Crime-Control-and-Prevention-A-Summary.PDF

The courtesy of a response is requested.

Sincerely, _________________   
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1 hour ago, Quotidian Tom said:


Weird that our self-murderization rate is lower than so many countries that have very strict gun control, isn't it?

Well, you are Kelo Tom, so I bet you can figger out many anomalies. 

It would take a dumbass, not a Kelo whiz type, to (repeatedly) deny the scientific evidence on suicide.

I understand your confusion, since scientific input is seldom to be found on reason.com:   :wacko:

Quote

--Suicides, Am Col of Physicians

Suicide Outcomes

We pooled data from 14 identified observational studies that assessed the odds of suicide (68101625) and, using a random-effects model, calculated a pooled OR of 3.24 (95% CI, 2.41 to 4.40) with substantial heterogeneity (I2 = 89%; τ = 0.45) (Figure 2). All but 1 study (20) found significantly higher odds of suicide among participants who had firearm access than among those who did not, with ORs ranging from 1.38 to 10.38. http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1814426#f2-6

--UCSF, Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-01-access-guns-suicide-homicide.html

 

--HARVARD STUDY (yep, multiple studies, peer-reviewed)

Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

 

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17 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Well, you are Kelo Tom, so I bet you can figger out many anomalies. 

It would take a dumbass, not a Kelo whiz type, to (repeatedly) deny the scientific evidence on suicide.

I understand your confusion, since scientific input is seldom to be found on reason.com:   :wacko:

 

Other than your comments in that thread, Kelo has nothing to do with guns, so it's no surprise you don't even know eminent from imminent.

Reason rates high for factual reporting with the rating site used by many here to discredit sources.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reason/

If grabbers would just come out and say, "We want to take your guns because we hold you responsible for the actions of criminals and we want to protect you from yourself," I wouldn't call bullshit on the nonstop "gun violence" mantra.

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18 hours ago, jocal505 said:

We pooled data from 14 identified observational studies that assessed the odds of suicide (68101625) and, using a random-effects model, calculated a pooled OR of 3.24 (95% CI, 2.41 to 4.40)

To put that into perspective an OR of ~3 makes access to firearms a better predictor of completed suicide than mental illness, suicidal ideation and previous suicide attempt (all around an OR of 2).

To my knowledge its second only to psychiatric treatment in the last year and being a veterinary (ORs around 4, iirc).

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6 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Reason rates high for factual reporting with the rating site used by many here to discredit sources.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reason/

This libertarian press gets the facts right...on certain selected narratives. They don't present the whole picture. Reason.com is a good-morning bubble, basically, like Fox News.

.As of today, reason.com is rated as "biased" and "selective", by your own source.

Quote

Overall, we rate Reason Magazine Right-Center biased based on story selection that favors Libertarian positions and High for factual reporting due to mostly proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (7/16/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 10/15/2020)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reason/

 

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On 10/22/2020 at 8:26 AM, Quotidian Tom said:

Weird that our self-murderization rate is lower than so many countries that have very strict gun control, isn't it?

Those don't count.

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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

"How Japan has all but eliminated gun crime"

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38365729

Quote

Japan has one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. In 2014 there were just six gun deaths, compared to 33,599 in the US. What is the secret?

Let me guess: the secret is not talking about Japan's suicide rate nor the fact that 2/3 of those "gun deaths" are self-murders.

 

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1 hour ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Let me guess: the secret is not talking about Japan's suicide rate nor the fact that 2/3 of those "gun deaths" are self-murders.

 

Don't guess, why not use your mind, but for discovery (instead of as a tool to twist the facts around)?

Tom, you are National Merit Scholarship material.  Seriously, what a mark of achievement. Make us proud to have ya, okay?

We are on page twenty of this (hi-jacked and mis-labelled) thread. Where is your fine intelligence applied to the phenomena of Japan and suicide? Guns are not on their radar, so something is up. Are you not twisting, and thus mis-representing the problem, in a basic way?

Here is my humble take on it, though I'm admittedly an uninformed outside: the evidence says that Japan is very against guns, but must be very much neutral or even positive towrds suicide.

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13 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Let me guess: the secret is not talking about Japan's suicide rate nor the fact that 2/3 of those "gun deaths" are self-murders.

 

It's been a while Tom-boi, got some more fucked up stats for us?

Haven't seen you talking about Brady's Best lately.  What's going on?

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17 hours ago, astro said:

It's been a while Tom-boi, got some more fucked up stats for us?

Haven't seen you talking about Brady's Best lately.  What's going on?

Mostly dogballs, since Sept. of 2016, and lots of indoor militias. Tom's condition is on the slide.

Ol' Tom got popped for spooling up the race-baiting.   :) And I love this place.

Quote

Let's play DRED SCOTT'S REVENGE (Search > Dred > Tom Ray)

 35 results for Tom "dogballs" Ray

 

WORKING DRED SCOTT LIKE A RENTED MULE, 2019  (score: 16 dreds/yr)

  • 2019 Sixteen Dreds/yr.
  • 2018  Thirteen Dreds/yr.
  • 2017 Three Dreds/yr.
  • 2016 none
  • 2015 none
  • 2012 THE ORIGINAL One Dred

 

 

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32 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Ol' Tom got popped for spooling up the race-baiting.   :) And I love this place.

Yeah?  Did he get a timeout?

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2 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

No. Our friend Tom changed his behavior in 2020.  ^_^

That's a shame.  He needs a rest from that job. 

Must be tiring banging the same old drum all day every day, when he doesn't even believe it himself.

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17 minutes ago, astro said:

That's a shame.  He needs a rest from that job. 

Must be tiring banging the same old drum all day every day, when he doesn't even believe it himself.

He "believes" it...while he twists matters dynamically, to make the pieces fit the belief system. What a bunch of nonsense, because...

  • CATO and income inequality go hand in hand.
  • CATO and sandbagging democracy and Putin go hand in hand.
  • Guns and unrest and the NRA and Russia go hand in hand.
  • Hmm, Roger Stone plays footsy with Cozy Bear: this is a Libertarian who took initiation into the Proud Boys, last week.
  • Curiously, CATO types, Russian Facebook activity, and exploiting the racial strife go hand in hand.

Astro, I do not care for the Tom Ray crowd.

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45 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

He "believes" it...while he twists matters dynamically, to make the pieces fit the belief system.

I'm not convinced he believes it all.  No one is that fucking dumb.

Most of the "Tom Ray crowd" are liars, they do it for profit.  But of course you could be right.

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10 hours ago, jocal505 said:
10 hours ago, astro said:

Yeah?  Did he get a timeout?

No. Our friend Tom changed his behavior in 2020.  

Nah, I've quoted you this year and will do it again.

On 5/4/2015 at 2:35 PM, jocal505 said:

The immature, short-sighted desire for gunpower is amplified, and more volatile, among blacks. Even more deadly than among whites.

 

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  • 2 months later...
20 hours ago, hasher said:

Guns are a major problem in the USA.  A higher level of regulation would certainly begin to address the issues that firearms pose in our society.  https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html

Quote

Firearm injuries are a serious public health problem. In 2018, there were 39,740 firearm-related deaths in the United States – that’s about 109 people dying from a firearm-related injury each day. Six out of every 10 deaths were firearm suicides and more than 3 out of every 10 were firearm homicides.

What kinds of regulations do you think would reduce suicides in the US?

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1 hour ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

What kinds of regulations do you think would reduce suicides in the US?

Less guns.

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What happen to the good old days when you just gave your fellow driver the finger? Thank the NRA

Christopher Michael Maassen died as a result of a shooting that happened on Feb 19th around 1:45pm on NB I95 at Donald Ross Rd. We know there was an altercation between two adult males.

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13 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

for all you gun loving Christians, VI applies for guns The Ten Commandments Laser Engraved Wood Plaque Artistic Craft image 0

Does it apply to hands and feet?  Baseball bats and Hammers?  Because both of those types of tools each individually are used to kill more Americans than Assault rifles.  Just saying.

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One more time  . .

Taking it from the top . . 

Gunz are for cowards . . 

and increasingly, fearful cowards 

Vets For Peace 

(before you get started, note that not all VFPer's are pacifists) 

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Does it apply to hands and feet?  Baseball bats and Hammers?  Because both of those types of tools each individually are used to kill more Americans than Assault rifles.  Just saying.

guns are still by far the # 1& 2  of killings 

See this chart: • Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

from a Reuters article: Guns are the most commonly used weapons in both murders and suicides, according to the analysis of data from 2007 released on Thursday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

325px-2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png

these are just a few of many studies on Gun deaths,

Going back to the 10 commandments , I don't remember any sub Paragraphs of good and bad killings, 

We are the most heavy arm country in the world and therefore have the most deaths by guns,

Guns have one single purpose TO KILL ,

As a Vietnam Vet , been there , never gone a t-shirt

My whole point is if your a Christian , how can you justify owning or using a gun to kill, people? 

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7 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

Going back to the 10 commandments , I don't remember any sub Paragraphs of good and bad killings, 

I'm not a Christian, but that translation is only one I've seen. Another is thou shalt not murder.

 

7 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

My whole point is if your a Christian , how can you justify owning or using a gun to kill, people? 

Not a Christian, but if it's necessary to avoid serious injury or death, killing is OK with me. How about you? If someone is about to kill you, would defending yourself be OK or are you against self defense?

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3 hours ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

I'm not a Christian, but that translation is only one I've seen. Another is thou shalt not murder.

 

Not a Christian, but if it's necessary to avoid serious injury or death, killing is OK with me. How about you? If someone is about to kill you, would defending yourself be OK or are you against self defense?

Does that include a port tacker , if your on stbd?

image.jpeg.5c9097d110279baeefeb3f966747a36e.jpeg

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56 minutes ago, Keith said:

America,  the country you can't even walk your fucking dogs in without getting shot and then having your pups stolen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/targeted-attack-violent-street-heist-of-lady-gagas-dogs-spurs-questions-of-motive/ar-BB1e2Ps9

 

Please.  Be civic, polite and peaceful in this conversation.  Only a bunch of people in the USA die unnecessarily from gun violence.  By the way, Canucks are American.

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14 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

Guns have one single purpose TO KILL ,

As a Vietnam Vet , been there , never gone a t-shirt

My whole point is if your a Christian , how can you justify owning or using a gun to kill, people? 

First of all, I don't claim to be a Christian - well other than in the same vein as @MR.CLEAN calls himself a Jew.  I was brought up as an ethnic Christian - but not a practicing one.  But I digress...... 

Anywho, so are you saying that everyone who owns a gun does so to kill random people in the "thou shalt not kill" spirit?  I don't think that applies to someone who is breaking into your house and trying to rape your wife or kill or your kids?  Or someone that pulls a knife or gun on you as your walking to your car late at night in a "less than safe part of town", now does it?  

Yes, if I use a gun to protect myself, my family or others from harm and kill someone one - then yes that someone is dead.  And that gun has done exactly what it was designed to do.  Kill someone.  Not all deaths are bad.  Not all "killin' is wrong.  Just saying.  

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5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

First of all, I don't claim to be a Christian - well other than in the same vein as @MR.CLEAN calls himself a Jew.  I was brought up as an ethnic Christian - but not a practicing one.  But I digress...... 

Anywho, so are you saying that everyone who owns a gun does so to kill random people in the "thou shalt not kill" spirit?  I don't think that applies to someone who is breaking into your house and trying to rape your wife or kill or your kids?  Or someone that pulls a knife or gun on you as your walking to your car late at night in a "less than safe part of town", now does it?  

Yes, if I use a gun to protect myself, my family or others from harm and kill someone one - then yes that someone is dead.  And that gun has done exactly what it was designed to do.  Kill someone.  Not all deaths are bad.  Not all "killin' is wrong.  Just saying.  

You must be experienced at this stuff to be so comfortable with your thought, too bad.

Most people have never killed another human and probably never will.

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15 hours ago, Keith said:

Most people have never killed another human and probably never will.

ZACTLY!!!! Which is why the notion of prohibiting gunz and removing gunz from ALL simply to attempt to prevent the exceedingly small number of people who might kill another is stoopid and counter-productive.  

Thank you for agreeing with me, finally.  "Better lates than never", my old Pappy Burning Man used to say.

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

ZACTLY!!!! Which is why the notion of prohibiting gunz and removing gunz from ALL simply to attempt to prevent the exceedingly small number of people who might kill another is stoopid and counter-productive.  

Thank you for agreeing with me, finally.  "Better lates than never", my old Pappy Burning Man used to say.

Ya sure. You just can't fix American gun stupid.

Why do Americans live in fear of their fellow Americans?

What you really need down there are serious "federal gun control" laws, until then all you will ever continue to have is the wild wild west...

At a bare minimum, you need.

Safe gun storage, all firearms stored unloaded with trigger locks on, in gun safes.

Ammo stored in a separate safe, clips unloaded. 

No concealed carry ever.

No carry ever of any type without some type of federal movement permit, including on your own property.

No movement of firearms from storage to any location without being unloaded and trigger locked.

Movement of firearms only in a locked case with a trigger lock and no loaded clips.

 

image.png.51c5fe266ad3989fbd8d513b74ca8b70.png

 

 

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4 hours ago, Keith said:

Ya sure. You just can't fix American gun stupid.

Why do Americans live in fear of their fellow Americans?

What you really need down there are serious "federal gun control" laws, until then all you will ever continue to have is the wild wild west...

At a bare minimum, you need.

Safe gun storage, all firearms stored unloaded with trigger locks on, in gun safes.

Ammo stored in a separate safe, clips unloaded. 

No concealed carry ever.

No carry ever of any type without some type of federal movement permit, including on your own property.

No movement of firearms from storage to any location without being unloaded and trigger locked.

Movement of firearms only in a locked case with a trigger lock and no loaded clips.

How can you defend your home from invasion with an unloaded gun?  Sorta defeats the purpose.  In fact, there was a fairly recent SC decision on laws that compelled owners to keep their weapons disable and locked up all the time, effectively rendering them useless for their designed purpose.  The ruling started with an "H"..... but it's escaping me.  @jocal505, help me out here......

And with very few exceptions, not a single one of those proposed "laws" would have any effect on the vast majority of gun deaths in the US.

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38 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

How can you defend your home from invasion with an unloaded gun?  Sorta defeats the purpose.  In fact, there was a fairly recent SC decision on laws that compelled owners to keep their weapons disable and locked up all the time, effectively rendering them useless for their designed purpose.  The ruling started with an "H"..... but it's escaping me.  @jocal505, help me out here......

And with very few exceptions, not a single one of those proposed "laws" would have any effect on the vast majority of gun deaths in the US.

OK,  so you expect to have to shoot someone at your home. That's pretty fucked up.

I thought you just shot at targets, at the range... guess that was bullshit.

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2 hours ago, Keith said:

OK,  so you expect to have to shoot someone at your home. That's pretty fucked up.

I don't expect it, but I'm prepared for it in the event it happens.  For the same reason I have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.  I don't expect a fire, but I'm ready for one if it appears and threatens my family.  

2 hours ago, Keith said:

I thought you just shot at targets, at the range... guess that was bullshit.

I do only shoot targets.  No one has tried to break into my house yet.  :lol:

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

I don't expect it, but I'm prepared for it in the event it happens.  For the same reason I have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.  I don't expect a fire, but I'm ready for one if it appears and threatens my family.  

I do only shoot targets.  No one has tried to break into my house yet.  :lol:

Well, keep hoping. It is Amerika, after all.

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9 hours ago, Ishmael said:
11 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I don't expect it, but I'm prepared for it in the event it happens.  For the same reason I have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.  I don't expect a fire, but I'm ready for one if it appears and threatens my family.  

I do only shoot targets.  No one has tried to break into my house yet.  :lol:

Well, keep hoping. It is Amerika, after all.

Meanwhile, if a dispute breaks out in his neighborhood about how to mow the lawn, he's fully prepared.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Meanwhile, if a dispute breaks out in his neighborhood about how to mow the lawn, he's fully prepared.

- DSK

Lawn?  What's that?  

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

In my case, it's whatever weeds cover the ground where there aren't trees or wax myrtle.

- DSK

My lawn is all rock.  The mower blades tend to get very dull very quickly.

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17 hours ago, Burning Man said:

And with very few exceptions, not a single one of those proposed "laws" would have any effect on the vast majority of gun deaths in the US.

Totally false. ^^^  Hmmm, more  fluffy, alternate facts, from Jeffie.

For starters, they are laws, period. Not "laws."

 

Please explain your fluff. The studies show that locking the guns up, for a change, would eliminate suicides in a significant way...and these are "the vast majority (60%) of gun deaths in the US. 

And not allowing loaded guns hidden all about, in our homes and cars, would also reduce many homicides. 

Are you a liar?

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29 minutes ago, Burning Man said:
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

In my case, it's whatever weeds cover the ground where there aren't trees or wax myrtle.

 

My lawn is all rock.  The mower blades tend to get very dull very quickly.

B)

yeah but have you -cleaned- your rocks lately?

I would actually like to have at least a couple of rocks, there is not any native here unless you dig down 50~100 feet. Only soft limestone (marl). I live in an HOA community and my goal is to have the maximum natural/native flora up to the point of getting in trouble. My neighbors are all relatively unhappy with my yard although they like the wildlife it attracts & harbors.

- DSK

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7 hours ago, jocal505 said:

 

Totally false. ^^^  Hmmm, more  fluffy, alternate facts, from Jeffie.

For starters, they are laws, period. Not "laws."

 

Please explain your fluff. The studies show that locking the guns up, for a change, would eliminate suicides in a significant way...and these are "the vast majority (60%) of gun deaths in the US. 

And not allowing loaded guns hidden all about, in our homes and cars, would also reduce many homicides. 

Are you a liar?

Because presumably the people that buy the gunz, pass their BGCs and lock up their gunz - would also have the key to those gunz and the ammo locker.   Unless you can show me stats that the vast majority of Self-Murder involves getting their hands on guns they do not own or have normal access to - I'm betting self-murder is unaffected much by BGCs, mandatory locks, ammo removed, guns locked while traveling to the range, etc.  In fact I am unaware of ANY case ever in the history of self-murder where the self murderer got a gun, took it in his/her car and headed to the range to go practice and then stopped halfway and shot themselves.  Again, presumably the person who is traveling to the range with a locked gun in the car and ammo locked away in a separate box in the trunk is going to have the keys to both lock boxes should the urge to self-murderate on the way to the range overcomes them.  

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Because presumably the people that buy the gunz, pass their BGCs and lock up their gunz - would also have the key to those gunz and the ammo locker.   Unless you can show me stats that the vast majority of Self-Murder involves getting their hands on guns they do not own or have normal access to - I'm betting self-murder is unaffected much by BGCs, mandatory locks, ammo removed, guns locked while traveling to the range, etc.  In fact I am unaware of ANY case ever in the history of self-murder where the self murderer got a gun, took it in his/her car and headed to the range to go practice and then stopped halfway and shot themselves.  Again, presumably the person who is traveling to the range with a locked gun in the car and ammo locked away in a separate box in the trunk is going to have the keys to both lock boxes should the urge to self-murderate on the way to the range overcomes them.  

Poor. Which is why I don't get too involved with you. And BTW, I've responded well, and carefully to you, at times when when I feel like it, and have gotten the blah blah.

  • Duh. Kids, and other house members are using the unsecured guns for suicides. 
  • Duh. With a Jeffie type, a gun in a car is ready to go, of course, not unloaded, with ammo elsewhere.
  • Duh. The suicide problem has aggregate components. These components are based on the omnipresence of guns.
  • This prevalence of guns emanates from the modern NRA's , post-1977, self-defense bullshit.
  • Jeffie, you claimed that not one law would have any effect on suicides, which is quite a heady statement... the studies disagree with you, universally.
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