Construction of a Pogo 12.50

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

FYI Shaggy, I just designed an A3 for a 36 footer from Airx700.

 

Same weight as your boat. Smaller Chute, But the Superkote 75 one lasted 6 years and never tore, and has been abused!

Thanks MSA. I'm leaning toward the 1oz weight I think. I am worried 0.75 seems a bit light if I factor in the fact that:

• the 12.50 should be just getting really fun in 25+ knots
• the impact of the potential oh.(insert appropriate personal expletive)-too-late-drop abuses it may potentially cop in the learning phase years.

[slip knot 0]

Please post pics, and asking price...

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

The price is one measly Regatta processor...

 

 

and, I give you...beauty and the beast.

 

 

I know I know, isn't she a peach??

[cms 536]

[canstead 22]

Oh, I so hope someone on this forum knows your wife!

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Woohoo! The hull layup is well under way. This is after the outer glass, the foam, and the inner glass layers are going on now.

The first shot is the mould after being cleaned ready for the layup, the following picture is our hull taking shape!

.

 

 

 

Looking at this makes me want to put a flat deck on it, make it look like an Adams 10, well sort of .

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

I don't suppose anybody know what foam density is by the color do you?

When I was there, I was looking at the way they use high density foam around the strong points like rudder post holes, but I cant remember the color weights.

[stick 2]

I don't suppose anybody know what foam density is by the color do you?

When I was there, I was looking at the way they use high density foam around the strong points like rudder post holes, but I cant remember the color weights.

The brown foam is the higher density stuff. Green is the lighter non-flexible iirc

[Alcatraz5768 414]

You want to start off learning infusion on small stuff. Imagine the heartbreak to pull that all out and throw it in the bin.

 

Looks cool as shit i must admit.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Alcatraz,

The infusion process has always fascinated me due to the high risk of a screwup being costly and not very forgiving.

Which I often then think how much effort goes into the female moulds as another labour of love..

One would assume trial and error on a female mould of this size, or for that matter any size, would be a costly and time consuming exercise.

That was one of the best thing about the Left Coast Dart thread, it gives you a great insight into how much goes into quality yacht production.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

I don't suppose anybody know what foam density is by the color do you?

When I was there, I was looking at the way they use high density foam around the strong points like rudder post holes, but I cant remember the color weights.

The brown foam is the higher density stuff. Green is the lighter non-flexible iirc

 

Thanks Stick, makes sense from a load impact point of view, the lower front sections would be the denser material.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

FYI Shaggy, I just designed an A3 for a 36 footer from Airx700.

 

Same weight as your boat. Smaller Chute, But the Superkote 75 one lasted 6 years and never tore, and has been abused!

 

Spoke with Structures, the spinnaker is now confirmed as Superkote 90.

I'm hoping that will still start working down to 10 knots, but I want something that can be dragged over the forestay and not shred, and I really don't want to lose the heavy air performance.

The boat's RM should be able to absorb the extra ponies, I am trying to optimise the sailing performance, but hold a little weight to offset normal abuse conditions.

Looking at the polars, it looks like the more wind the bigger the grins, which is obvious if you think of the hull shape I suppose.

[jim lee 0]

Looking for a simple solution to USB charging? Kill two birds with one stone.

12V Sound system with built in USB charger. Not cheap stuff but actual marine grade & extramly power efficient.

 

 

http://leftcoast.biz/iWeb/Left_Coast/Simple_stereo.html

 

-jim lee

[bushsailor 73]

Do not forget that the average wind speed in QLD is only 8 knots. ie many many very light days.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Kinda disagree BS. For Brisbane itself the average is below 10, but once you're outside the islands I've had more days at plus 10 than sub 10.

I admit though, if it is glass we don't go out but tend to potter around the boat, so maybe I am picking my days.

[sow1ld 0]

10 knots sounds ideal! Think I'm getting over sailing in Wellington

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

OK, back to the checklist.

Sails. Done

Hull, interior and sail colors. Done.

Electrical generation and charging looks like this:

 

Batteries are 2 x 110 Ah house batteries, with as 60ah starting battery,

115a alternator.

NKE 500A battery control sensor.

There was an option to upgrade to another 2 x 110Ah batteries, but I don't believe I need the extra juice compared to the extra weight.

ON the charging side: I couldn't bring myself to bolt a solar panel onto the boat yet, I hate the things for cosmetic reasoning.

The normal spot for a solar panel is just forrard of the hatch, yet I like the clean lines and hate solar panels under foot, damn and damn.

But this means my only source of charging is the diesel at present.

I have been watching with interest that Watt and Sea hydrogenerators, has anybody had experience with them?

Compared to a solar panel, they seem to punch well above their weight. .

 

 

And their performance figures for the racing version and cruising version...

 

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

More data from Watt and Sea, figures look impressive enough..relaibility?

 

With a pleasant design, the 300 and 600W Cruising Hydrogenerators are light, compact and easy to install on your boat.
Built in robust materials, it does not require any maintenance.

Effective on a range of speed from 2 to 10 knots, its simple assembly is carried out on the transom thanks to a lifting system, like rudder, with an integrated cam-cleat.

• Power : 120W at 5 knots further to the model and size of the propeller (10A - 12V; 5A -24V)
• Start-up speed: 2 knots
• Aluminium leg : 610 or 970 mm
• Cruising 300 : nominal output 300 Watts (24 A in 12 Vcc)
• Cruising 600 : nominal output 600 Watts (48 A in 12 Vcc)
• Delivered with the last generation of converter 12-24 Vcc automatically detected, one 240 mm propeller (200 mm and 280 mm in option), new bracket with its cam-cleat and one fitting kit

[SCANAS 523]

I know it's a different league but the Vendee Globe competitors always have problems with hydrogenerators. Your engine running at idle will use less than a half a litre of diesel per hour & you already have an engine installed, so you don't need to add another system with lots of potential areas of fault finding later. You could get 40 hours of run time charging at 115a for under $30 cost of fuel. These days with everything being LED you should get good capacity out of the standard system. Even if you ran your engine for a couple of times a day totalling 2-3hours hot showers etc that's 16 days worth of charging for $30.

 

My 2 cents

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Thanks Scanas, I didnt know the Vendee boys had issues with them, I need to do more research.

To further highlight the red flags column, add in the cost of the hydrogenerator and do an ROI, then it looks pretty lame.

 

So the question should really be:

• do I want a backup generation system for the diesel, or
• am I planning to sail somewhere so remote diesel fuel is the telling factor?

Mmm...maybe. Need to think this one through a bit more I believe.

Edfit: I can always follow Abby Sunderland's Open 40 fitout and strap 20l drums of diesel all through the cockpit. Must remember to tie them in loosely so they can kill people in the first big knockdown.

[LB 15 4,897]

You will need at least 312 NM range to get home from Gladstone.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

You will need at least 312 NM range to get home from Gladstone.

I am glad you put this in distance LB, I once drove a 60ft cat aground in the narrows doing a return from B2G, so whilst it was only 312nm, we spent an extra day in our own little environment waiting for the next high tide.

Mind you, fat lot of good a hydrogenerator would do in that instance !

[SCANAS 523]

Vendee is definitely a harsh environment but they where always repairing them & I think even lost a couple too. Solar is cheap & 40 litres of diesel gives you 30 days of engine run time (idle) 2.5hours a day. That's a decent break from civilisation.

[Jono 42]

A Hydrogenerator is only a requirement if you are doing lots of 2000 plus passages. For Qld, your motor plus solar will be fine.

[Chucky 34]

My recommendation is to go for at least 160A alternator and go for LiFe batteries c/w BMS (say at least a 200Ah). The standard AGM batteries (particularly in the warm conditions) struggle to charge at a high rate where as the LiFe batteries are much more efficient in charging, therefore your motor will only require to be run for say 1 to 2 hours per day to fully charge your batteries. When running a diesel motor for charging, they like a good load

 

You need to calculate your total current consumption with all your offshore equipment being on, then work out the size of batteries required based on one motor start/stop per day or two if you are able to cope with the motor running twice in a day. Remember the larger the battery size, the less charging is required, however you pay the price for the weight. But if you have a fridge and an Autohelm you will need at least 400AH for LiFe to sail with cold beers short handed and only charge with motor for say 2 hours per day.

 

Also consider using the voltage sensitive relays for your start battery so you will not need to use any isolation switches when starting the motor for charging.

 

In summary, you need to consult an experienced person who is able to provide you a design of the DC power systems which will fit in with your budget and/or offshore sailing requirements.

 

Agree that a hydro-generator is only for seriously long sails, same applies with wind generators.

 

Solar panels are only good for keeping your batteries topped up when in dock. Otherwise you will end up with the top of your boat full of Solar Panels, then as soon as the suns goes away you have lost charging!

[Rantifarian 7]

A high output alternator will probably be more useful than a hydrogenerator in most circumstances

[SCANAS 523]

Not if the charge rate delivered to the batteries is the same.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

My recommendation is to go for at least 160A alternator and go for LiFe batteries c/w BMS (say at least a 200Ah). The standard AGM batteries (particularly in the warm conditions) struggle to charge at a high rate where as the LiFe batteries are much more efficient in charging, therefore your motor will only require to be run for say 1 to 2 hours per day to fully charge your batteries. When running a diesel motor for charging, they like a good load

 

You need to calculate your total current consumption with all your offshore equipment being on, then work out the size of batteries required based on one motor start/stop per day or two if you are able to cope with the motor running twice in a day. Remember the larger the battery size, the less charging is required, however you pay the price for the weight. But if you have a fridge and an Autohelm you will need at least 400AH for LiFe to sail with cold beers short handed and only charge with motor for say 2 hours per day.

 

Also consider using the voltage sensitive relays for your start battery so you will not need to use any isolation switches when starting the motor for charging.

 

In summary, you need to consult an experienced person who is able to provide you a design of the DC power systems which will fit in with your budget and/or offshore sailing requirements.

 

Agree that a hydro-generator is only for seriously long sails, same applies with wind generators.

 

Solar panels are only good for keeping your batteries topped up when in dock. Otherwise you will end up with the top of your boat full of Solar Panels, then as soon as the suns goes away you have lost charging!

 

Chucky, I've never heard of LiFe outside of small batteries for RC aircraft. Is LiFe the same technology as LiFePO4 batteries?

[FinnFish 206]

So what is it about 'corporate guest duties' that leads to wheels instead of a tiller?

Cause

 

Mmm....very interesting to see the different engineering approach by both vendors.

 

gori3blade.jpg Folding_3.jpg

 

 

Gori Volvo

 

Kiwi prop...

[cms 536]

The Watt&Sea generators have also had issues with prop noise/vibration which is a real pain. Had this on a Pogo 12,50. Changed the prop 3 times but only slightly better.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

The Watt&Sea generators have also had issues with prop noise/vibration which is a real pain. Had this on a Pogo 12,50. Changed the prop 3 times but only slightly better.

 

Thanks CMS, good info. I might wait for technology to advance somewhat, that would be annoying considering the cost.

[Chucky 34]

 

My recommendation is to go for at least 160A alternator and go for LiFe batteries c/w BMS (say at least a 200Ah). The standard AGM batteries (particularly in the warm conditions) struggle to charge at a high rate where as the LiFe batteries are much more efficient in charging, therefore your motor will only require to be run for say 1 to 2 hours per day to fully charge your batteries. When running a diesel motor for charging, they like a good load

 

You need to calculate your total current consumption with all your offshore equipment being on, then work out the size of batteries required based on one motor start/stop per day or two if you are able to cope with the motor running twice in a day. Remember the larger the battery size, the less charging is required, however you pay the price for the weight. But if you have a fridge and an Autohelm you will need at least 400AH for LiFe to sail with cold beers short handed and only charge with motor for say 2 hours per day.

 

Also consider using the voltage sensitive relays for your start battery so you will not need to use any isolation switches when starting the motor for charging.

 

In summary, you need to consult an experienced person who is able to provide you a design of the DC power systems which will fit in with your budget and/or offshore sailing requirements.

 

Agree that a hydro-generator is only for seriously long sails, same applies with wind generators.

 

Solar panels are only good for keeping your batteries topped up when in dock. Otherwise you will end up with the top of your boat full of Solar Panels, then as soon as the suns goes away you have lost charging!

 

Chucky, I've never heard of LiFe outside of small batteries for RC aircraft. Is LiFe the same technology as LiFePO4 batteries?

LiFeP04 is correct, check out the supplier "EV Power" website. They are based in Perth but will transport anywhere in Aussie.

Your boat looks great keep the photos coming !

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Well bugger me. Now that I've had a look, I am sure we've used these in mine camps for fttx networks.

I'll need to have a chat to them as it sounds like if you lose the BMs system you run the risk of a catastrophic failure, ie swelling and exploding cells is tingling my risk alarm bells. I am unsure if this relates more to lithium ion, and LiFe is lithium iron? Will have a chat.

Other than that, it sounds very impressive. Things I do like :

Being able to draw up to 80% without shortening battery life

Being able to charge at full rate, as compared to the step down system used for agm.

Lightweight, aka: half of the weight of a sealed lead/agm battery.

Accepts a higher rate of charge.

Discharge cycles are off the scale compared to agm.

Very cool Chucky, thanks for that, will let you know outcome.

[SCANAS 523]

Hi Shaggy,

 

80% of amps or volts?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Hi Scanas,

Amps according to distributor.

Ie: an agm is approx 50% before you shorten lifespan, these things are 80%.

This is part of the sales pitch, instead of say 600ah agm bank delivering 300 ah useable, you can use a 400 ah and still get 320ah useable.

It's worth noting they're double the cost of a good agm.

[Chucky 34]

Due to the high cost of these LiFeP04 batteries, one option is to only initially install one battery then design your BMS and battery location/hold down design to accomodate a future second battery once you sorted your battery storage and charging requirements.

 

Please pm me and I am happy to discuss with you my experiences with my yacht and any other queries.

[SCANAS 523]

Hi Scanas,

Amps according to distributor.

Ie: an agm is approx 50% before you shorten lifespan, these things are 80%.

This is part of the sales pitch, instead of say 600ah agm bank delivering 300 ah useable, you can use a 400 ah and still get 320ah useable.

It's worth noting they're double the cost of a good agm.

I wonder what sort of voltage is left when they are run down that far though?

[sam_crocker 35]

Lithium has a better, more even discharge than agm.

 

Shaggy, get a copy of the June/July issue of Professional Boatbuilder. Its got a good article on Lithium battery systems for yachts. You need to be aware of some performance differences, like alternators are not designed to run full out (they only do so for the bulk phase for agm style batteries), and the charge voltages are different so you have to be thoughtful if you want to mix lithium and agm.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

Hi Scanas,

Amps according to distributor.

Ie: an agm is approx 50% before you shorten lifespan, these things are 80%.

This is part of the sales pitch, instead of say 600ah agm bank delivering 300 ah useable, you can use a 400 ah and still get 320ah useable.

It's worth noting they're double the cost of a good agm.

I wonder what sort of voltage is left when they are run down that far though?

 

 

Hi Scanas, good question, another thing to add to the research list. My initial research shows they actually hold voltage for a lot longer than agm or dry cell do, but this is prelim data, I am going to contatc EV Power in the next few days and find out more about this.

 

 

Lithium has a better, more even discharge than agm.

 

Shaggy, get a copy of the June/July issue of Professional Boatbuilder. Its got a good article on Lithium battery systems for yachts. You need to be aware of some performance differences, like alternators are not designed to run full out (they only do so for the bulk phase for agm style batteries), and the charge voltages are different so you have to be thoughtful if you want to mix lithium and agm.

 

Thanks Sam, I'll do that indeed, appreciate the heads up. The intent would not be to mix the two technologies, I don't think you could due to the different approaches for charging if I am reading all this correctly.

 

I'm also trying to hunt down the latest edition of Sailing World, there is a write-up on the new Pogo 36 apparently which would be interesting to read. Structures told us about this last year when visited, but I am happy with our decision to stick with the 40", there is something that really grabs me about this boat (obviously if I ordered one I suppose!!!)

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

See below a photo of the installation of the first ribs, the keel box and engine sub-frame going in. Yay!!!

The perspective makes the keel box look like it is going in the forrard cabin !!!

It still amazes me how much difference in volume there is to our current 34" ride, it looks like double what we currently play on.

 

 

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

And here is part of the reason we are doing this. This is taken on the way to Palm Island, a short 15min flight out of Townsville, an easy sail from Brisbane where the boat will be moored.

For those of you who do not know the locale, this is approx a couple of hundred kilometres north of the Whitsundays, where the Hamilton Island and Airlie Beach race weeks are held.

Lucky bastards you North Queenslanders, not a bad backyard I suppose .

 

 

 

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

And a bit more, gotta love the water quality....this is from 500 ft.

 

[bodega87 63]

Actively following this thread. I really like the 12.5, and appreciate all the updates. I'm a bit jealous of the sailing in straya, only 13 more years before retirement though

[FinnFish 206]

And here is part of the reason we are doing this. This is taken on the way to Palm Island, a short 15min flight out of Townsville, an easy sail from Brisbane where the boat will be moored.

For those of you who do not know the locale, this is approx a couple of hundred kilometres north of the Whitsundays, where the Hamilton Island and Airlie Beach race weeks are held.

Lucky bastards you North Queenslanders, not a bad backyard I suppose .

 

Off townsville_r1.jpg

 

 

 

Stop publicizing the back yard!!! With the lift keel you should be able to explore Hinchinbrook island and surrounds.

 

PDRW, ABRW, HIRW and MIRW all line up pretty well, makes for a fun but expensive May - Sept.

[Rantifarian 7]

What is PDRW?

[SCANAS 523]

What about PIRW? Palm Island Race Week - have to be a shoe in for line honours.

[mexican 13]

What is PDRW?

 

Port Douglas?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

What about PIRW? Palm Island Race Week - have to be a shoe in for line honours.

We could win all classes being a fleet of 1! (If tinnies don't count)

[Streetwise 64]

Awesome project! I like modern racer/cruisers, and it sounds like you are thinking about all of your choices carefully!

 

Here are a couple of thoughts:

 

Can you use magnets or suction cups to mount a solar panel? That way you can pull it for racing or move it if you don't like your placement.

 

I was also looking at the interior and it might be nice to find a magnetic or velcro system for some mesh or fabric covers on your cabinet cubbies. I could see stuff sliding out of those openings.

 

Have you started thinking about your control systems in the cockpit? When my father got his C&C 99 ten years ago, the boat came with two extra clutches compared to the other 99s in the area, so I was able to double-end some of the control lines to improve the ergonomics. Make sure you get enough clutches to be able to double-end what you want and/or add extra lines for any extra sail trim controls you might think of adding. It was nice having the spinnaker downhaul and vang controls on each side in our case. Plus I liked the visual symmetry of six clutches on each side. I would also be picky about about symmetrical instrument placement, perhaps leaving measured spots for future upgrades.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

[34 South 2]

Congratulations, It looks like an exciting project. Does the boat have one of the Pogo class 40 hull shapes? If so which one?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Awesome project! I like modern racer/cruisers, and it sounds like you are thinking about all of your choices carefully!

 

Here are a couple of thoughts:

 

Can you use magnets or suction cups to mount a solar panel? That way you can pull it for racing or move it if you don't like your placement.

 

I was also looking at the interior and it might be nice to find a magnetic or velcro system for some mesh or fabric covers on your cabinet cubbies. I could see stuff sliding out of those openings.

 

Have you started thinking about your control systems in the cockpit? When my father got his C&C 99 ten years ago, the boat came with two extra clutches compared to the other 99s in the area, so I was able to double-end some of the control lines to improve the ergonomics. Make sure you get enough clutches to be able to double-end what you want and/or add extra lines for any extra sail trim controls you might think of adding. It was nice having the spinnaker downhaul and vang controls on each side in our case. Plus I liked the visual symmetry of six clutches on each side. I would also be picky about about symmetrical instrument placement, perhaps leaving measured spots for future upgrades.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

Hi SW, let me answer this one when I have a bit of time mate, interesting topic on all.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Congratulations, It looks like an exciting project. Does the boat have one of the Pogo class 40 hull shapes? If so which one?

 

Hi 34S,

Yes mate, it is built on the Pogo 40 (latest is the S3?), but no water ballast and slightly higher freeboard, it was Structures thought process to make a sllghlty cruiser version of the Open 40 design .

Edit: Sorry, I was in a rush and I just reread your question. I do not know which 40 model (S1/2/3) the 12.50 is based on, the next time I am talking to Structures I'll find out and let you know.

SB

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Hi 34 South,

Had a chat to Stuctures and I asked them about this for you.

It is modeled on the 40s2. The s3 was built as a purist speed model, and it sacrificed a bit too much in the comfort stakes, so the s2 became the model for the 12.50.

[34 South 2]

Thanks for the response, SB. The S2 is pretty quick, and with higher freeboard pretty comfortable too. I hope you have a lot of fun with her. I'll follow your thread with interest

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Awesome project! I like modern racer/cruisers, and it sounds like you are thinking about all of your choices carefully!

 

Here are a couple of thoughts:

 

Can you use magnets or suction cups to mount a solar panel? That way you can pull it for racing or move it if you don't like your placement.

 

I was also looking at the interior and it might be nice to find a magnetic or velcro system for some mesh or fabric covers on your cabinet cubbies. I could see stuff sliding out of those openings.

 

Have you started thinking about your control systems in the cockpit? When my father got his C&C 99 ten years ago, the boat came with two extra clutches compared to the other 99s in the area, so I was able to double-end some of the control lines to improve the ergonomics. Make sure you get enough clutches to be able to double-end what you want and/or add extra lines for any extra sail trim controls you might think of adding. It was nice having the spinnaker downhaul and vang controls on each side in our case. Plus I liked the visual symmetry of six clutches on each side. I would also be picky about about symmetrical instrument placement, perhaps leaving measured spots for future upgrades.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

HI Streetwise,

Ok, magnets. I hadn’t thought of that. Ok, if I did I am just thinking of where, the cabin top is busy with ropes behind the mast, forrard is a bit better but I don't want to foul the hatches. The last 60W panels I saw if I use that as a guide is pretty big. The antiskid would screw with suction cups, magnets could do it. I've got some neodymium magnets that I swear can do miracles, the only problem is the magnetic fields are so powerful Id probably screw with the nav equipment..

 

Interior shelving. Yes, but by all reports the plastic trays in the cubicles concept seem to work pretty well. There is potential for things to fly out of course, so maybe the question is how much of a knock down would it take? Mmm…Sounds kinda appealing, but expensive??,to find out.

If I had to choose I would go Velcro over magnets for me. If you got tossed down a wave, roll over and I admit I don’t want to get brained by flying assortments.

There was a Yachting World boat test where they rolled a yacht right over simulating a knockdown, and had the normal paraphernalia downstairs in unsecured lockers and under seat stowage. There were two crash test dummies sitting in the main cabin downstairs. They flip the boat, an amazing amount of crap fly’s everywhere, even floorboards contribute in beating the poor dummies to certain death. Then they screw down floorboards and secure hatches and roll the boat again. The dummies survive, beaten and bruised but alive, and live happily ever after. It sure showed what could happen to a lot of boats I’ve sailed on, so for offshore it is something I need to consider.

 

 

Control Systems. The control systems I have opted for a Pogo tradition, and that is all winches on the cabin top. I hear you though, I have always been a fan of cross sheeting with winches on the cockpit side deck, but cross sheeting doesn’t really factor on the Pogo with the winches where they are! The approach regarding the control systems and the layout is to get some time on the boat, and then start to work it out. I think I really need some miles under the keel before I am informed enough to determine if, and where, additional deck hardware is needed. I admit I am looking forward to this the most, the challenge being firstly mastering what I start off with. Some of these control systems that are in bold on the tuning check list are;

· can I three sail reach,

· experimenting with the barber haulers,

· tuning the mast?? For sail shape, the carbon fibre mast, and no traditional backstay, is very unnatural, as backstays and runners we tweak all the time on our current IOR style boats.

· maximizing the benefit of the looong traveller.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

The stern bulkheads being lowered into place for prepping and glueing into the hull. You can see some of the foam filled chambers, these are what gives her "unsinkable" tag, I am having an interesting chat with the insurance brokers regards understanding that not all boats are the same risk. This is one of the negatives I knew would prove more difficult than usual, and that is importing a boat with no existing dealer network or existing fleet makes insurance a bit more difficult. It is sad to see a lack of general yachting knowledge nowadays, the insurance companies years ago seemed intelligent enough to risk profile a boat that was a bit different (or is that rose colored glasses?) , my experience to date is a boat it doesn't register on their database they're not quite sure what to do except throw a rock star premium at it. .

I'll need to start assembling some technical advice from Structures as the next step. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

 

The lower cut on the starboard bulkhead is because this "cabin" is the technical area, ie: stowage,systems and mechanical. The port side is a normal cabin, hence the higher bulkhead.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Just chatting to a guy that foredecked a J/108 and he tells me that dual rudders suck as it gives you twice the amount of hull penetrations to sink the boat with. I don't understand, the steering gear is sealed from the rest of the interior spaces by a bulkhead. How does this morph into potentially losing the boat if you shear a rudder off from an underwater collision? If you 're stupid enough to make the steering spaces volume big enough to sink the boat wouldn't that be page 1 of a yacht designers manual? I understand if it was a day sailer, but a J/108 isnt a day sailer to me. Am I missing something obvious?

[SCANAS 523]

Envy?

[Rantifarian 7]

Dual rudders are, in theory, a bit more exposed, as they sit out to the side without a keel to protect them. Plenty of boats with either no sealed area for the steering gear, or a halfarsed job with enough plumbing, wiring and shit going through the bulkhead that the water will piss through anyway

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

Envy?

Shaggy, I have got the solution to all your problems/dilemmas with this boat. It's clearly a POS and the wrong colour to boot. When it arrives in oz contact me and I will take it off your hands for you.

I bought a First 44.7 from Marblehead and sailed it home with the intention of competing in 2013 MelbtoOsaka race but missed out on race for "family" as in family court reasons. I live aboard the boat. Boat is set up for short handed racing/cruising but nonetheless the sailing compromises cf accommodation are such that I am looking to exchange for an open 40 and add some creature comforts down below as my ideal cruising boat.

Envy.... Not something that comes to me but if you do want to offload your POS then let me know. Btw I would prefer if you do get the boat in white so I don't have to change colour.

 

Alternatively if you would like some assistance with setup and initial management of boat contact me.

 

Cheers frant

 

Thanks Frant, it was good of you mate. The question I have to ask is how much money do I need to go along with my POS to make it worth your while??? I do have sisters.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

The boat should be ready end September, and the current shipping agent is quoting 45 days delivery with two sailings per month.

At present for shipping I am going with Balguerie, and ITM to assist with the customs red tape.

I potentially had a window where I could take a few weeks off, and I had an idea to sail it to the UK as a bit of a breakdown cruise, then throw her on a sail on/off freight service.

Might have been a good idea, but the sail on service amounted to over $100K Aussie, bit too steep I am afraid. (That's double the cost of deck shipping quotes).

The problem is I couldn't get any more time spare, so a couple of weeks sailing ,aside from being great fun, wont change the cost too much, and adds complexity of dealing with another country to freight it home.

I had some insane ideas on neglecting the business and dawdling through the med, but sensibility keeps biting, lots of time for that after she lands and we get her in the water . I think hope the current plan is best,

[JL92S 189]

Just chatting to a guy that foredecked a J/108 and he tells me that dual rudders suck as it gives you twice the amount of hull penetrations to sink the boat with. I don't understand, the steering gear is sealed from the rest of the interior spaces by a bulkhead. How does this morph into potentially losing the boat if you shear a rudder off from an underwater collision? If you 're stupid enough to make the steering spaces volume big enough to sink the boat wouldn't that be page 1 of a yacht designers manual? I understand if it was a day sailer, but a J/108 isnt a day sailer to me. Am I missing something obvious?

I don't know about the j108/j109 but a couple of boats I've seen in the past (bavaria, Hanse etc.) have had bulkheads but with a non watertight access panel in the back of the aft cabin rather than something like a lee are hatch which is what we have on the class 40 I race (cat 0). Does your pogo have a similar setup to ours?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Hi JL,

Yes, same setup as your class 40, it has a watertight bulkhead that isolates the rear stowage and steering compartment. Access is through the lazarette hatch, or should I say the deck hatch behind the helm position.

I can't understand why people would then go and punch holes through the thing for cabling etc, but I have seen this too where you ruin a perfectly good watertight area by not thinking about things like electrical cables etc. Weird.

[Spin Echo 2]

Mmm.. I have a dilemma on the dual wheels. This is a shot from the back, showing a sister ship setup.

 

Wheels rear view.jpg

 

To me , from this angle the pedestal and wheel selection, and design, look in the right proportion and fit the the boat.

So far, all good.

 

But viewed from the front, this doesn't look so pleasing to the eye. Something looks out of place.

 

Wheels Front view.jpg

 

I am thinking two things..

 

Option 1: Cover the black boss of the wheel post. Is it as simple as a nice white cover over the boss that would correct it?

Option 2; Change the wheel design. Does it need something like this instead?

 

Carbon_Steering_wheel_for_Yacht.jpg

 

 

 

Hey Shaggy, after some serious steering on a recent race in a heavy seaway, i realized the more spokes on the wheel, the more annoying it is. You've got 6 on the one you are going for. How about something like on a Mylius yachts?

[jack_sparrow 7,607]

Beware of lithium. They are a potential fire hazard if batteries and controllers are not true marine build quality (which are very very expensive). This cost impost will probably change in a few years. Unless you have extreme loads such as large fridge(s) and autopilot combined with charging constraints, then good quality AGM will do the trick.

[slip knot 0]

Beware of lithium. They are a potential fire hazard if batteries and controllers are not true marine build quality (which are very very expensive). This cost impost will probably change in a few years. Unless you have extreme loads such as large fridge(s) and autopilot combined with charging constraints, then good quality AGM will do the trick.

+1

They are banned in Canadian aircraft for that reason.

They are legal in the USA, which always makes me nervous when I am flying in an American plane.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

Mmm.. I have a dilemma on the dual wheels. This is a shot from the back, showing a sister ship setup.

 

Wheels rear view.jpg

 

To me , from this angle the pedestal and wheel selection, and design, look in the right proportion and fit the the boat.

So far, all good.

 

But viewed from the front, this doesn't look so pleasing to the eye. Something looks out of place.

 

Wheels Front view.jpg

 

I am thinking two things..

 

Option 1: Cover the black boss of the wheel post. Is it as simple as a nice white cover over the boss that would correct it?

Option 2; Change the wheel design. Does it need something like this instead?

 

Carbon_Steering_wheel_for_Yacht.jpg

 

 

 

Hey Shaggy, after some serious steering on a recent race in a heavy seaway, i realized the more spokes on the wheel, the more annoying it is. You've got 6 on the one you are going for. How about something like on a Mylius yachts?

 

Thanks Spin, nice looking wheels btw. Any idea of the construction, ie: carbon or GRP? I am assuming they're annoying for getting in the way of your fingers?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

Beware of lithium. They are a potential fire hazard if batteries and controllers are not true marine build quality (which are very very expensive). This cost impost will probably change in a few years. Unless you have extreme loads such as large fridge(s) and autopilot combined with charging constraints, then good quality AGM will do the trick.

+1

They are banned in Canadian aircraft for that reason.

They are legal in the USA, which always makes me nervous when I am flying in an American plane.

 

 

I must admit I am fascinated with the technology, but I've decided I'll stick with AGM for now. I just need to have more exposure to it before I bolt it into the brand new shiny ride. It does seem fairly mature, and the benefits are significant, but I can't just don't have enough confidence that if I lose the BMS I could overcook a cell and potentially cause a fire. I could use my older exisitng ride as a guinea pig I suppose, something to think about. I'm in WA next month so I'm going to hook up with EV Power and learn more about it.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

It's out of the mould at last !

 

 

Maybe I should leave the stanchions off it, leave the portlights covered up, I like clean uncluttered lines.

I can try and sneak in amongst the min transat guys and see if I can do a stealth hatchet job on the fleet...except they'd probably horizon me and make me look even more stupid.

 

[jack_sparrow 7,607]

Remember with lithium it is a all or nothing total system thing. Charging sources, bus design etc are lithium specific which makes retro fitting so bloody expensive not just cost of batteries. There is a new design of AGM using carbon foam technology ideal for boats called Firefly which might be a game changer.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

I don't know about the j108/j109 but a couple of boats I've seen in the past (bavaria, Hanse etc.) have had bulkheads but with a non watertight access panel in the back of the aft cabin rather than something like a lee are hatch which is what we have on the class 40 I race (cat 0). Does your pogo have a similar setup to ours?

Here is a good picture of the rear watertight compartment that isolate the rudder posts from the interior, also provides the stowage for the cockpit for fenders etc. I saw one with a rolled up inflatable dinghy stowed in here and it looked lost. I'm not used to having a lot of stowage, it's a nice problem to have.

I just have to fight off it collecting all the odds and sods and shit and keep her clean and light.

 

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Hi mate, getting closer every week, you claimed the foredeck yet?

This is a better shot showing the interior layout.

Port rear is the double berth, standing room in front of the bunk and open cupboard to the hull side (not installed) . One unexpected side benefit of the open style no door cupboards is SWMBO took one look and was crestfallen "but it will look terrible if it is crammed full of stuff.."

Centreline is fluids storage and engine compartment of course.

Starboard is the technical area aka: stowage, accessed through the smaller hatch in the standalone bulkhead. Storage looks plenty big but it will look different with spare sails I'm sure. Forrard is the toilet and shower, and yes, it has hot water, and yes I'm a pussy. Getting what you want in life is sometimes a compromise..sigh.

Forrard to the main cabin, and one interesting Pogo trait is the floors and stringers are all bare, you have to step over the beam/stringer grid to move forrard. I am sure this may not suit a lot of people, but I like it though. The simplicity appeals to me and i like the benefit of not pulling up floorboards to access everything. The same could be said for the lack of headboards and lining, a lot of people wont like it, fair 'nuff , nothing wrong with that approach if you're into it, each to their own I suppose.

Forrard cabin is another double with a toilet/shower to port, another cupboard to starboard.

 

 

Forrard again and you have the spinnaker well and anchor locker. I'll try and get a good shot if it to explain.

[jack_sparrow 7,607]

No Headliner = Condensation??

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Yes.

But I still can't help but think it's still better out than "in", aka behind headboards.

 

Edit: and to be truthful, I'm lazy and want a boat I can wipe clean!

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Thanks for the response, SB. The S2 is pretty quick, and with higher freeboard pretty comfortable too. I hope you have a lot of fun with her. I'll follow your thread with interest

 

34 S, here's a good shot of a 40S2 in the mould and my 12.50, ie: same hull. Much more cabin volume to say the least. Mmm...waterballast..

 

Sorry, the 40S2 picture is a bit small.

 

[LeoV 2,233]

The foam in the deck acts as headliner aka insulation.

[Spin Echo 2]

Does Pogo offer flip up rudders as an option?

[34 South 2]

 

Thanks for the response, SB. The S2 is pretty quick, and with higher freeboard pretty comfortable too. I hope you have a lot of fun with her. I'll follow your thread with interest

 

34 S, here's a good shot of a 40S2 in the mould and my 12.50, ie: same hull. Much more cabin volume to say the least. Mmm...waterballast..

 

Sorry, the 40S2 picture is a bit small.

 

Pogo 40S2.jpgBuild 10.jpg

 

OK, so same hull mould, but you get a coach roof, which is good, but no water ballast? Is the keel a lot deeper and heavier to compensate? Gunwales the same height as S2?

 

Even if offered I wouldn't go flip up rudders, the class 40's seem to be moving away from them. I guess gybes are exciting enough without having a rudder popping up half way through.

[Spin Echo 2]

 

 

Thanks for the response, SB. The S2 is pretty quick, and with higher freeboard pretty comfortable too. I hope you have a lot of fun with her. I'll follow your thread with interest

 

34 S, here's a good shot of a 40S2 in the mould and my 12.50, ie: same hull. Much more cabin volume to say the least. Mmm...waterballast..

 

Sorry, the 40S2 picture is a bit small.

 

Pogo 40S2.jpgBuild 10.jpg

 

OK, so same hull mould, but you get a coach roof, which is good, but no water ballast? Is the keel a lot deeper and heavier to compensate? Gunwales the same height as S2?

 

Even if offered I wouldn't go flip up rudders, the class 40's seem to be moving away from them. I guess gybes are exciting enough without having a rudder popping up half way through.

 

 

Interesting, but all the new Imocas have them.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

so i really want one of these what is the lead time to get one to the wrong side of the USA? tried calling and emailing but no answer

HI Newleaf,

The order book last time I checked for somebody else (about a month ago) was the next production slot is December 2016.

I add this is for the 12.50, other models may be earlier.

Being summer in Europe this is when they usually get more orders, so I'm interested to see what it will look like in a month or so!

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

so i really want one of these what is the lead time to get one to the wrong side of the USA? tried calling and emailing but no answer

 

Newleaf, Coralie is the girl you want to talk to, I'll PM you her contact details mate, she has been very good to deal with.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

 

Thanks for the response, SB. The S2 is pretty quick, and with higher freeboard pretty comfortable too. I hope you have a lot of fun with her. I'll follow your thread with interest

 

34 S, here's a good shot of a 40S2 in the mould and my 12.50, ie: same hull. Much more cabin volume to say the least. Mmm...waterballast..

 

Sorry, the 40S2 picture is a bit small.

 

Pogo 40S2.jpgBuild 10.jpg

 

OK, so same hull mould, but you get a coach roof, which is good, but no water ballast? Is the keel a lot deeper and heavier to compensate? Gunwales the same height as S2?

 

Even if offered I wouldn't go flip up rudders, the class 40's seem to be moving away from them. I guess gybes are exciting enough without having a rudder popping up half way through.

 

 

Hi 34S, Sorry, been a bit busy, didn't have a chance to respond earlier.

No water ballast in the 12.50, but Structures used the internal fitout and water and fuel to essentially match the same weight as the 40s2 with water ballast. As you would expect, the S2 has literally nothing regards internal fitout.

Yes, gunwales are higher on the 12.50. On the 12.50, the fixed keel has a draft of 2.2m compared to 3m for the swing keel, with the fixed weighing 400kg more. The 40S2 has a fixed keel only that has a draft of 3m and is the same weight as the 12.50 fixed keel.

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

Does Pogo offer flip up rudders as an option?

HI Spin,

I didn't see any option for flip up rudders, but that doesn't mean no, talk to Structures. Looking at the rudder positioning, I would have thought that to do a flip up rudder you would need to move the rudders back to the transom, and while it doesn't seem very far, to me the balance of the steering would take a hit and you'd have to make the rudders with more draft. As they are there surprisingly short, but to date I don't hear any complaints about purchase, this is the 12.50 rudders being assembled.

.

[TwoLegged 1,042]

this is the 12.50 rudders being assembled.

.

rudders.jpg

I thought the rudders might have carbon stocks, but the picture isn't very clear. Is that a stainless steel shaft?

[shaggybaxter 1,649]

 

this is the 12.50 rudders being assembled.

.

rudders.jpg

I thought the rudders might have carbon stocks, but the picture isn't very clear. Is that a stainless steel shaft?

 

 

Hi Twolegged, yep, stainless steel. Too conservative?

[34 South 2]

Thanks for the detail SB, she sounds very very good

 

Stainless shafts come from its Class 40 roots, where shafts if used have to be stainless, newer Class 40's have gone for transom hung rudders which are lighter

[Just A Skosh 72]

Thanks for the detail SB, she sounds very very good

 

Stainless shafts come from its Class 40 roots, where shafts if used have to be stainless, newer Class 40's have gone for transom hung rudders which are lighter

 

Well actually the newest Pogo 40 doesn't have transom rudders. If I remember correctly they were tried out but weren't worth the weight savings due to complexity or something...

 

http://www.pogostructures.com/en/racing-sailboats/pogo-40s3/

[34 South 2]

 

Thanks for the detail SB, she sounds very very good

Stainless shafts come from its Class 40 roots, where shafts if used have to be stainless, newer Class 40's have gone for transom hung rudders which are lighter

 

Well actually the newest Pogo 40 doesn't have transom rudders. If I remember correctly they were tried out but weren't worth the weight savings due to complexity or something...

 

http://www.pogostructures.com/en/racing-sailboats/pogo-40s3/

Correct, not all have gone this way, but check out the Mach 40's.