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Melges 24 doing Port Huron Mac WHAT ARE THEY THINKING


J29Guy

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Have you ever worked for a club that hosted a regatta?

 

Now I understand where you're coming from.

 

 

 

Clubs invite a class to sail, the Sandusky Sailing Club held Opti Nationals a couple of years ago. SSC has nothing to do with Opti class rules that the Opti's sailed under.

This race does not involve boats with PHRF ratings and it is therefore not subject to their rules. SSC applied the Opti class rules because SSC thought that they were the best fit for the event that they wanted to put on.

 

TYC invites the PHRF "class" to sail the Mills Trophy Race under PHRF LE "class rules". They also invite multi hulls who sail under their own "class" rules.

Correct, they are also prevented from changing the "class rules" to allow boats with an R rating to sail.

 

Clubs don't make class rules, classes make class rules.

This is a misleading statement. When was the last time you saw a notice of race and sailing instructions written by a class association for a PHRF race? Clubs use the class rules when convenient to do so (because sometimes its easier than re-writing something used over and over), but they are not bound to strictly abide by them without the possibility for modification.

 

Your argument that a toy boat could be rated is specious, they would not meet the seaworthy requirements.

Is it incorrect? What seaworthy requirements are you referring to? Please tell me where in the PHRF-LE rules a Snark with minor modifications (forestay, backstay, auxillary power, lifelines, pulpit, a cooler as an "adequate accommodations for cruising," and carrying the USCG equipment) would be prevented from obtaining a certificate. There isn't a provision there that would prevent it from being issued a cert. It would also be above the standards for issuance of a R cert. From there, since the clubs putting on things like the Mills Race and the Commodore Perry Race haven't invoked an ORC category, there wouldn't be a rule preventing the modified Snark from sailing.

 

If I remember correctly the owner of this site was not allowed to race his Shaw in a regatta because it did not meet Northern California PHRF class rules requiring 400# of ballast.

Okay, well that sucks, but 400 lbs of ballast is a lot more inclusive, generally, for the kinds of boats people want to race.

 

Tell us, can you race your Melges 24 in a St Pete invitational regatta in the Melges 24 class if you don't meet Melges 24 class rules? Or do you think St Pete should step in for you and let "fly the code" sail his Melges 24 with over size sails?

No, a person with a M24 presumably could not enter that race without meeting the M24 class rules. Importantly, the decision to disallow that was not made by the M24 class association, or a governing body of PHRF, it was made by the race organizers. In their discretion the organizers thought the class rules were an applicable standard for their race; this is something I am perfectly happy with. The organizers could have added a provision allowing an oversize sail if they chose to without facing possible repercussions from an organizing body.

 

If you want to sail in the PHRF LE class, meet the class rules.

I don't own a M24 and I don't regularly crew on one. As a matter of preference I prefer to crew on a bigger boat that does in fact meet all of the class requirements and has an unrestricted rating. That being said if PHRF-LE wants to make it past the baby boomer generation, and if I want to have people to race against when I am older, PHRF-LE will need to make the rules meet the reasonable expectations of younger racers. Otherwise membership and participation will continue to decline. They have made the rules meet other groups' preferences; here is an example quoted from the meeting minutes from April 21, 2012: "During the appeal discussion on Dreamer, a 1926 ALDEN 55 KETCH, it was discovered that vintage boats of a certain age have lifelines but dont have a bow pulpit and adding such would impact the classic design. The class rules will be amended to allow the committee to approve an unrestricted certificate for boats of a certain length, weight, and build year that fall into a vintage antique category." The things being requested aren't that hard and are not unsafe when clubs are allowed to tweak safety requirements in the NOR.

 

I'm done.

I thought I read something like this before...

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No, but I've been involved with enough organizations and events to know how things work and when things don't look good.

 

How about you regale us with your extensive experience planning regattas and increasing membership in racing organizations?

 

But, you won't, because you are incapable of responding to the merits of an argument. Instead you would rather try to bully a young person because they haven't planned a regatta. Nice work. Please feel free to respond with more unsupported assertions.

 

Make a well reasoned and supported point instead of being the chess playing pidgeon.

 

Have you ever worked for a club that hosted a regatta?

 

Now I understand where you're coming from.

 

 

 

 

Clubs invite a class to sail, the Sandusky Sailing Club held Opti Nationals a couple of years ago. SSC has nothing to do with Opti class rules that the Opti's sailed under.

This race does not involve boats with PHRF ratings and it is therefore not subject to their rules. SSC applied the Opti class rules because SSC thought that they were the best fit for the event that they wanted to put on.

 

TYC invites the PHRF "class" to sail the Mills Trophy Race under PHRF LE "class rules". They also invite multi hulls who sail under their own "class" rules.

Correct, they are also prevented from changing the "class rules" to allow boats with an R rating to sail.

 

Clubs don't make class rules, classes make class rules.

This is a misleading statement. When was the last time you saw a notice of race and sailing instructions written by a class association for a PHRF race? Clubs use the class rules when convenient to do so (because sometimes its easier than re-writing something used over and over), but they are not bound to strictly abide by them without the possibility for modification.

 

Your argument that a toy boat could be rated is specious, they would not meet the seaworthy requirements.

Is it incorrect? What seaworthy requirements are you referring to? Please tell me where in the PHRF-LE rules a Snark with minor modifications (forestay, backstay, auxillary power, lifelines, pulpit, a cooler as an "adequate accommodations for cruising," and carrying the USCG equipment) would be prevented from obtaining a certificate. There isn't a provision there that would prevent it from being issued a cert. It would also be above the standards for issuance of a R cert. From there, since the clubs putting on things like the Mills Race and the Commodore Perry Race haven't invoked an ORC category, there wouldn't be a rule preventing the modified Snark from sailing.

 

If I remember correctly the owner of this site was not allowed to race his Shaw in a regatta because it did not meet Northern California PHRF class rules requiring 400# of ballast.

Okay, well that sucks, but 400 lbs of ballast is a lot more inclusive, generally, for the kinds of boats people want to race.

 

Tell us, can you race your Melges 24 in a St Pete invitational regatta in the Melges 24 class if you don't meet Melges 24 class rules? Or do you think St Pete should step in for you and let "fly the code" sail his Melges 24 with over size sails?

No, a person with a M24 presumably could not enter that race without meeting the M24 class rules. Importantly, the decision to disallow that was not made by the M24 class association, or a governing body of PHRF, it was made by the race organizers. In their discretion the organizers thought the class rules were an applicable standard for their race; this is something I am perfectly happy with. The organizers could have added a provision allowing an oversize sail if they chose to without facing possible repercussions from an organizing body.

 

If you want to sail in the PHRF LE class, meet the class rules.

I don't own a M24 and I don't regularly crew on one. As a matter of preference I prefer to crew on a bigger boat that does in fact meet all of the class requirements and has an unrestricted rating. That being said if PHRF-LE wants to make it past the baby boomer generation, and if I want to have people to race against when I am older, PHRF-LE will need to make the rules meet the reasonable expectations of younger racers. Otherwise membership and participation will continue to decline. They have made the rules meet other groups' preferences; here is an example quoted from the meeting minutes from April 21, 2012: "During the appeal discussion on Dreamer, a 1926 ALDEN 55 KETCH, it was discovered that vintage boats of a certain age have lifelines but dont have a bow pulpit and adding such would impact the classic design. The class rules will be amended to allow the committee to approve an unrestricted certificate for boats of a certain length, weight, and build year that fall into a vintage antique category." The things being requested aren't that hard and are not unsafe when clubs are allowed to tweak safety requirements in the NOR.

 

I'm done.

I thought I read something like this before...

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Code, steam flyer explained your options. I've explained to you the reality of how a regatta is run and organized and tried to explain the difference between a club and a class. Sorry you're not getting it.

You're tilting at windmills.

 

I'm at dinner with family, you win.😀

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I truly regret that you cannot see the problem with the PHRF-LE Rules. There are not other class associations which are actively trying to prevent the boats within their class from participating with boats from other classes in handicap races. You and Steam can chastise me all you want, it is your right to do so, but you should consider the detrimental effects these rules have on the sailing community. Participation is down and all I hear from older boat owners is complaints about how few boats are showing up.

 

Here are the membership numbers as quoted in the January PHRF-LE minutes:

521 members 2014; 533 members 2013; 574 members in 2012; 604 members in 2011; 605 members 2010; 616 members 2009; 619 members 2008; 629 members 2007; 644 members 2006; 668 Members 2005

 

The range of the rate of change in membership is from -41 to -1. The average drop is 16.3 members per year. From the 2014 number (521), PHRF-LE will have 0 members after 32 years if that average is maintained.

 

Assuming some variance in that average, PHRF-LE will have 0 members sometime in my 50's or 60's, yet you still chose to chastise me for attempting to address problems which contribute to the membership problem.

 

Code, steam flyer explained your options. I've explained to you the reality of how a regatta is run and organized and tried to explain the difference between a club and a class. Sorry you're not getting it.
You're tilting at windmills.

I'm at dinner with family, you win.

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You're tilting at windmills.

 

 

The favorite saying of people who have either lost their courage or lost their faith in change

Then again.... What real accomplishment of note can Mr. Clean hang his hat on? We'll wait.
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Funny stuff Clean. I've raced 40 years and choose to no longer compete, I'm going cruising.

 

But let's look at where racing is going versus where it came from.

 

Way back when the fleets were huge most races were point to point. At races end parties were aboard boats with crews co mingling, not under the party tents. There was camaraderie, not hostility. Boats were dual purpose, they were mostly cruiser/racers, boats went on to a cruising life after racing. Sails were Dacron and affordable. Boats were affordable and dual purpose. People weren't sailing sport boats that are very physical and throw away, they sailed Tartan 30's or some such boat dual purpose boat.

 

The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

 

All three of them.. or in the case of the multi's sailing this years Mills, one.

 

Change isn't always good...sport boat vs cruiser racer,,,, yea right.. Say good bye to the fleet.

 

 

 

 

 

You're tilting at windmills.

 

 

The favorite saying of people who have either lost their courage or lost their faith in change

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You're tilting at windmills.

 

 

The favorite saying of people who have either lost their courage or lost their faith in change

Then again.... What real accomplishment of note can Mr. Clean hang his hat on? We'll wait.

It's there, just stuck in the edit suite along with a few others.

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You're tilting at windmills.

 

 

The favorite saying of people who have either lost their courage or lost their faith in change

Then again.... What real accomplishment of note can Mr. Clean hang his hat on? We'll wait.

 

And to be fair, how about "monkey", what are monkey's accomplishments of note? this is clearly a fair question to you, as you've posed this to others. if you reply with an insult, rather than an answer, we will assume you have no accomplishments.

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Sounds like you have a problem with society in general really. Tilting at windmills for lack of a better phrase...

 

I agree that camaraderie could be improved, but it is there. It may not be on the boats specifically, although I have mingled and found my way on to other boats to have beers as recently as last season. People are now more insulated and self absorbed than ever. It would help if everyone made more of an effort to be inclusive to people of all abilities and knowledge levels. I'm not sure how excluding sport boats helps address this problem.

 

Not sure I follow the rest though. People that want to race want to go fast and they want to win. How much would it cost now to get a boat that can go fast and have enough cruising accommodations to make the wife/kids happy? 100k? 200k? Maybe less if you can get something a little run down and fix it up, but most people don't have time for that in addition to normal boat maintenance. In terms of time, money, and knowledge most people can't afford the dual purpose boats any more. People that want to race aren't going to get an old slow boat when they can't afford the newer dual purpose option they really want, so they are likely to just not buy a boat and participation suffers accordingly.

 

Why would the fleet leave if they race against a Melges 24? Can you provide one reason other than that they don't want to lose to younger people on a sport boat? If that's the case there are ways to solve that issue by 1) adjust the sport boats' ratings 2) develop some sort of different rating (which doesn't exclude boats) that can be applied in conditions that are extremely favorable to sport boats and/or 3) the people losing can put more time and effort into sailing their boats better. The combination of those would theoretically (too many variables to actually do so) level the playing field.

 

Logically, the sport boats must be winning because of some combination of the following: the sport boats are rated incorrectly; there is a deficiency in the rating system that sport boats exploit through their design; and/or the people on the sport boats are sailing better than the people on other boats. These are not insurmountable problems that cannot be addressed in a way that makes everyone happy.

 

I'm happy that you got 40 years worth of a good experience racing. I really am. I don't have any hatred towards you as a person. As someone who shares a hobby that I enjoy, I want to see you have fun and be able to enjoy that hobby too. Looking forward though, it doesn't look like I will get to do the same unless changes are made, which is why I must be an advocate for those changes.

 

Funny stuff Clean. I've raced 40 years and choose to no longer compete, I'm going cruising.

But let's look at where racing is going versus where it came from.

Way back when the fleets were huge most races were point to point. At races end parties were aboard boats with crews co mingling, not under the party tents. There was camaraderie, not hostility. Boats were dual purpose, they were mostly cruiser/racers, boats went on to a cruising life after racing. Sails were Dacron and affordable. Boats were affordable and dual purpose. People weren't sailing sport boats that are very physical and throw away, they sailed Tartan 30's or some such boat dual purpose boat.

The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

All three of them.. or in the case of the multi's sailing this years Mills, one.

Change isn't always good...sport boat vs cruiser racer,,,, yea right.. Say good bye to the fleet.


 

You're tilting at windmills.


The favorite saying of people who have either lost their courage or lost their faith in change

 

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

 

 

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

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Kind of a moot point isn't it? RRS 1.1 isn't limited to vessels in the race. This would put everyone in the same place if, as others have suggested, the M24 runs it's own race and peoples' worst fears are realized.

 

 

 

 

Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.
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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

 

 

What Matt B said. But then again, that could be true of so many boats that haven't been properly maintained over the decades and have real hidden issues waiting to be exploited by a good blow.

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

 

 

We are all doing this, from the Max Z86 on down.

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

 

 

We are all doing this, from the Max Z86 on down.

 

 

Considering the guys on the Melgi are good friends of the guys on the MaxZ (and a hundred other boats), there ain't much of an issue for people actually doing the race. The issue only remains for old fuckers who think a boat designed in 1992 is somehow still a scary new development that's destroying the sport they once were part of. In fact, since I cannot go racing because of baby watch, I'm going to put myself on emergency duty and get my powerboat hooked up and ready to drive to Saginaw or whatever in case someone needs a tow back.

Why? Because I want to encourage more of this kind of thing.

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

 

 

We are all doing this, from the Max Z86 on down.

 

 

Considering the guys on the Melgi are good friends of the guys on the MaxZ (and a hundred other boats), there ain't much of an issue for people actually doing the race. The issue only remains for old fuckers who think a boat designed in 1992 is somehow still a scary new development that's destroying the sport they once were part of. In fact, since I cannot go racing because of baby watch, I'm going to put myself on emergency duty and get my powerboat hooked up and ready to drive to Saginaw or whatever in case someone needs a tow back.

Why? Because I want to encourage more of this kind of thing.

 

 

To clarify, what I mean is we're all being babysat. Accidents and lousy decision-making can happen to anyone.

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To clarify, what I mean is we're all being babysat.

 

 

Have been since the launching of Navstar 1 in 1978. almost 40 years of nanny state navigation. Those who complain about it tend to be the 'uphill, both ways, through the snow' types.

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To clarify, what I mean is we're all being babysat.

 

 

Have been since the launching of Navstar 1 in 1978. almost 40 years of nanny state navigation. Those who complain about it tend to be the 'uphill, both ways, through the snow' types.

 

 

Do some homework! The constellation was very sparse up until about 1990. I worked with Ivan Getting who was largely responsible for GPS coming to fruition. He was on the board of directors where I worked and also founded The Aerospace Corporation. In '88, we used the few hours of GPS we had on two days to calibrate our LORAN (which is prone to meaningful errors that are very stable over relatively short time periods, e.g., if you mark a harbor entrance on your way out, you will arrive back to the same spot).

 

Since the sparse GPS constellation precessed with time, the hours of coverage varied each day, so there was no guarantee you would have coverage possibly when you needed it most (say looking for Cove Buoy in the fog).

 

So only 25yrs of nanny state navigation.

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

 

 

We are all doing this, from the Max Z86 on down.

 

 

Considering the guys on the Melgi are good friends of the guys on the MaxZ (and a hundred other boats), there ain't much of an issue for people actually doing the race. The issue only remains for old fuckers who think a boat designed in 1992 is somehow still a scary new development that's destroying the sport they once were part of.

 

 

 

you are delusional - nobody thinks that...

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Let 'em race. If they kick our ass, good on them. If the CG has to rescue their ass because of bad decisions, Then tough luck, boys.

 

just be prepared for the consequences. It is what it is.

 

If you hear a distress call while on the race, do you just sit back and let the CG take care of it? I hope not. The problem is, they are asking every race boat on the course to be their babysitter. They are asking people to stop racing and help if they run into issues. Not to mention risking life or injury to a rescuer. This is the stupidest argument for letting them race that I have read here. And that is saying a lot considering that clean keeps chiming in.

We are all doing this, from the Max Z86 on down.

Considering the guys on the Melgi are good friends of the guys on the MaxZ (and a hundred other boats), there ain't much of an issue for people actually doing the race. The issue only remains for old fuckers who think a boat designed in 1992 is somehow still a scary new development that's destroying the sport they once were part of.

 

you are delusional - nobody thinks that...

In his head, everyone one day older than clean is an old fucker and has no rights to have an opinion different to his, and everyone younger than him believes that the M24 is a great Mac boat..

And any anonymous posters have no cred and are to be ridiculed by him and his fanboys...

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

 

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

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I guess the Wingnuts guys didnt have many friends

That's unfair to the boats that responded...and several did in conditions that were pretty brutal.

 

True. But using the logic that safety standards can be lowered because participant boats can be relied on

for rescue wont work very well in the long run. If you cannot be self sufficient (for a certain length of time anyway),

you shouldnt be out there.

 

 

The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

 

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

Fine if they have a separate class

 

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

 

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

 

Took all this time but you summed it up perfectly.

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And those of us invested in sport boats or race boats are supposed to fuck off then?

 

How about the z86, tp52, f30 ect. Are you telling them to bugger off too because they have a race boat and not a dual purpose boat. No, you are picking on a boat, or a class that is in your rating band. I'm not buying this is all about safety. Personally I would not take our melges out overnight racing, but I think it can be done safely.

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

 

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

 

Took all this time but you summed it up perfectly.

 

 

So dedicated race boats and sport boats don't belong with cruiser racers? I'm pretty sure that would upset the PHRF A fleet where I sail on Wednesdays. I'm also pretty sure that most of the boats in the fleet are used exclusively for racing.

 

Here is the scratch sheet ordered by PHRF rating:

Synergy 1000

Henderson 30

J/35

Beneteau 10R

Melges 24

C&C 110

J105

Hobie 33

 

Take away the sportboats: Henderson 30 and the M24 are out. Better take out that Synergy 1000 too because that's a dedicated race boat, pretty sure that Hobie 33 is a dedicated race boat too. I'm sure the others are probably dedicated race boats too, but leaving that aside for now, what are we left with? The 10r, J105, C&C, and the J/35? You want PHRF A to have 4 boats in it? Are those other 4 boats better off with the dedicated racers out of the picture somehow?

 

Dedicated race boats are here already (shit, some of them even have interiors, the nerve of those people) and they probably aren't going away. People like to sail them. People like to go fast and like to win, after all isn't that what racing is about?

 

 

And those of us invested in sport boats or race boats are supposed to fuck off then?

 

How about the z86, tp52, f30 ect. Are you telling them to bugger off too because they have a race boat and not a dual purpose boat. No, you are picking on a boat, or a class that is in your rating band. I'm not buying this is all about safety. Personally I would not take our melges out overnight racing, but I think it can be done safely.

 

Apparently some people would rather see participation suffer than to let excited people sail fast boats in races. So, yeah, people that want to have a dedicated race boat, to compete in the sport of racing, should pretty much fuck off then. It's kinda like saying people that want to race cars should only race their SUVs and minivans and the people that want to race a Corvette should fuck off. That would be terrible....

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

Took all this time but you summed it up perfectly.

 

So dedicated race boats and sport boats don't belong with cruiser racers? I'm pretty sure that would upset the PHRF A fleet where I sail on Wednesdays. I'm also pretty sure that most of the boats in the fleet are used exclusively for racing.

 

Here is the scratch sheet ordered by PHRF rating:

Synergy 1000

Henderson 30

J/35

Beneteau 10R

Melges 24

C&C 110

J105

Hobie 33

 

Take away the sportboats: Henderson 30 and the M24 are out. Better take out that Synergy 1000 too because that's a dedicated race boat, pretty sure that Hobie 33 is a dedicated race boat too. I'm sure the others are probably dedicated race boats too, but leaving that aside for now, what are we left with? The 10r, J105, C&C, and the J/35? You want PHRF A to have 4 boats in it? Are those other 4 boats better off with the dedicated racers out of the picture somehow?

 

Dedicated race boats are here already (shit, some of them even have interiors, the nerve of those people) and they probably aren't going away. People like to sail them. People like to go fast and like to win, after all isn't that what racing is about?

 

 

 

And those of us invested in sport boats or race boats are supposed to fuck off then?

 

How about the z86, tp52, f30 ect. Are you telling them to bugger off too because they have a race boat and not a dual purpose boat. No, you are picking on a boat, or a class that is in your rating band. I'm not buying this is all about safety. Personally I would not take our melges out overnight racing, but I think it can be done safely.

 

Apparently some people would rather see participation suffer than to let excited people sail fast boats in races. So, yeah, people that want to have a dedicated race boat, to compete in the sport of racing, should pretty much fuck off then. It's kinda like saying people that want to race cars should only race their SUVs and minivans and the people that want to race a Corvette should fuck off. That would be terrible....

I'm sorry, what are we talking about here? A major US distance race with hundreds of entries? ? Or your piece of shit weds night beer can series? Your thread is the one with EBYRA weight limits. Buhbye!

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Have you been reading this from the beginning? You do realize this whole thing has been about wanting to spread sport boat discrimination from Lake Erie to the rest of the country, right? This was started by someone associated with PHRF-LE, so it is relevant to bring up things related to yacht club participation at clubs on Lake Erie.

 

How is participation at EBYRA? It seems like there are less people sailing there than here. Our scratch sheet has 37 boats yours has 31. The economy must be worse in NYC than it is in Toledo. People there must not be able to afford to go race any more.

 


I'm sorry, what are we talking about here? A major US distance race with hundreds of entries? ? Or your piece of shit weds night beer can series? Your thread is the one with EBYRA weight limits. Buhbye!

 

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

 

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

 

 

Waaaah. You know they do make stuff now that will easily flush that sand out of your vagina.

 

So would that be true if there was a Melges 32 racing? Or a C&C30? Or any number of other offshore capable boats that are single purpose designs, all of which have bow pulpits and lifelines?

 

Oh and why is it only about conditions and luck???? You're actually saying that skill doesn't come into play sailing a sportboat? In fact I would bet that the average person sailing a sportboat probably has 10x the skill of the average furniture sailor. Again..... Waaah.

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Lets hope it doesnt get too windy, to me these look like dinghys pretending to be keelers.

 

2004nationals5.jpg

 

Doing something to the halyard?

 

crew-standing-on-the-keel-of-a-capsized-

 

WTF is a boat doing capsized in that?

 

Alt_m24w07raced5-05H.jpg

 

Not bad for a quick reef but how the hell are they going to unreef it in the light?

 

 

I am sure in the right conditions these will be an adrenaline pumping blast, but best not be to far from the trailer when it gets serious.

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

Waaaah. You know they do make stuff now that will easily flush that sand out of your vagina.

 

So would that be true if there was a Melges 32 racing? Or a C&C30? Or any number of other offshore capable boats that are single purpose designs, all of which have bow pulpits and lifelines?

 

Oh and why is it only about conditions and luck???? You're actually saying that skill doesn't come into play sailing a sportboat? In fact I would bet that the average person sailing a sportboat probably has 10x the skill of the average furniture sailor. Again..... Waaah.

Yes it would be true. How difficult is it for a planing hull to beat a displacement cruiser/racer in one distance race that happens to end up being mostly off the wind? Even you could do that. Or vice versa upwind in a displacement boat.

Read it again a few times more slowly. You have the comprehension skills of a SA editor. . I was not comparing skill levels of sailors of different boat designs. You are. I was pointing out the luck and affect of weather conditions on drastically different designs will often outweigh skill factors. Agree?

 

Or if you only come out and race when conditions favor your boat, is that a fair test?

 

Maybe in a season series the conditions will even out over time. But not in one race.

 

RIP. The Cone of Silence.

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Yes it would be true. How difficult is it for a planing hull to beat a displacement cruiser/racer in one distance race that happens to end up being mostly off the wind? Even you could do that. Or vice versa upwind in a displacement boat.

Read it again a few times more slowly. You have the comprehension skills of a SA editor. . I was not comparing skill levels of sailors of different boat designs. You are. I was pointing out the luck and affect of weather conditions on drastically different designs will often outweigh skill factors. Agree?

 

Or if you only come out and race when conditions favor your boat, is that a fair test?

 

Maybe in a season series the conditions will even out over time. But not in one race.

 

RIP. The Cone of Silence.

 

 

I don't know what whiny-ass world you live in, but having different kinds of boats competing against each other doesn't dim down participation in the Mac. Never has. HTFU. The way you describe it is the way it's always been and people still come out sailing. And if you ever actually paid attention from your East Coast bubble, you'd know the boat to beat in that class, as with always, no matter the wind condition or the weather, is the 30+ year old C&C 35, not the planing racing sleds.

 

P.S. Why are you talking about the Mac like it has one set of conditions? I'm sorry, what are we talking about here? A major US distance race with hundreds of entries? ? Or your piece of shit weds night beer can series?

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In fact, since I cannot go racing because of baby watch, I'm going to put myself on emergency duty and get my powerboat hooked up and ready to drive to Saginaw or whatever in case someone needs a tow back.

 


Why? Because I want to encourage more of this kind of thing.

 

 

ha ha ha! thats gold mate.

so let's get this straight: you will be on standby to rescue boats that don't need rescuing because they are perfectly safe and suited to the race?

 

i'm sure all the fleet can now rest easy knowing some internet tough guy is on standby with his boat on a trailer if case the shit hits the fan.

 

is your phone number on the SI's or do they just post a request for a tow on this forum?

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The future of "the cruiser/race, ie phrf" sailing is in jeopardy because of the Melges types boats. Sorry, that's reality.

 

Where are we going? The Melges will get in and race, maybe they'll finish, maybe not. But as they do join the fleet the bulk of the fleet "cruiser/racer PHRF" will leave and no one but the sport boats will be left to race.

I'm honestly trying to understand this. Why would a Melges 24 cause the bulk of the cruiser/racer fleet to leave? I don't understand how one has an effect on the other?

People who have invested in a dual purpose boat (cruiser/racer) have to compete against a single purpose boat for the same trophy.

It becomes all about the conditions,and luck, not the skill.

The majority of distance racers are 'cruiser/racers'.

Pretty dumb to alienate the biggest subset of your customers.

So sport boats don't belong racing with furniture boats.

Waaaah. You know they do make stuff now that will easily flush that sand out of your vagina.

 

So would that be true if there was a Melges 32 racing? Or a C&C30? Or any number of other offshore capable boats that are single purpose designs, all of which have bow pulpits and lifelines?

 

Oh and why is it only about conditions and luck???? You're actually saying that skill doesn't come into play sailing a sportboat? In fact I would bet that the average person sailing a sportboat probably has 10x the skill of the average furniture sailor. Again..... Waaah.

You have the comprehension skills of a SA editor.

 

Now thats just being nasty.

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In fact, since I cannot go racing because of baby watch, I'm going to put myself on emergency duty and get my powerboat hooked up and ready to drive to Saginaw or whatever in case someone needs a tow back.

 

Why? Because I want to encourage more of this kind of thing.

 

 

ha ha ha! thats gold mate.

so let's get this straight: you will be on standby to rescue boats that don't need rescuing because they are perfectly safe and suited to the race?

 

i'm sure all the fleet can now rest easy knowing some internet tough guy is on standby with his boat on a trailer if case the shit hits the fan.

 

is your phone number on the SI's or do they just post a request for a tow on this forum?

 

More to the point, does this mean the 'pink international media' flag is now the 'pink international rescue' flag?

 

 

 

Thunderbird%20M%20FAB%20BIG.jpg

 

Clean to the rescue. :P

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Nice photos.

 

How many rigs have come down from fucking up the runners?or from lack of maintaince? If you break a melges mast it is most likely that you eased the backstay too much in high wind.

 

How many keels have fallen off bendytoys, j's? The most violent knockdown I've had is on a 1d35, it doesn't have a backstay, some thought that was unsafe too. I've seen a Farr 40 samurai a mainsail that wouldn't come down in 40knots, that didn't look safe either. Holy Shit I just realized I'm involved in a sport that has risks.

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It's a good idea to make the race more inclusive and involve M24’s, it’s not for me, but if it’s for you rock on.

 

Seems like the naysayers are in two categories. One is it’s too dangerous for an M24 and there’s going to be a disaster. The second is the wind is going to blast on the corner and the M24’s are going to sweep the standings.

 

I’ll be laughing at all of you if it ends up being a 3 day drifter.

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It's a good idea to make the race more inclusive and involve M24s, its not for me, but if its for you rock on.

 

Seems like the naysayers are in two categories. One is its too dangerous for an M24 and theres going to be a disaster. The second is the wind is going to blast on the corner and the M24s are going to sweep the standings.

 

Ill be laughing at all of you if it ends up being a 3 day drifter.

When was the last drifter when killing those fucking flys was the best way to kill time?

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It's a good idea to make the race more inclusive and involve M24s, its not for me, but if its for you rock on.

 

Seems like the naysayers are in two categories. One is its too dangerous for an M24 and theres going to be a disaster. The second is the wind is going to blast on the corner and the M24s are going to sweep the standings.

 

Ill be laughing at all of you if it ends up being a 3 day drifter.

When was the last drifter when killing those fucking flys was the best way to kill time?

 

 

 

The last full on drifter for me was 04, ironically on a J/29. On the Southampton course. We finished during the party on Tuesday as we passed around the last cigarette and bottle of wine.

I also spent a couple of watches in the same spot in 07 or 08 I think, but it wasn’t as bad as 04 and I was on a better boat.

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It's a good idea to make the race more inclusive and involve M24s, its not for me, but if its for you rock on.

Seems like the naysayers are in two categories. One is its too dangerous for an M24 and theres going to be a disaster. The second is the wind is going to blast on the corner and the M24s are going to sweep the standings.

Ill be laughing at all of you if it ends up being a 3 day drifter.

When was the last drifter when killing those fucking flys was the best way to kill time?

GOD..... Killing flies along with 4-5dudes on a m24 for 2-3 days....... Sounds like the 5th circle of hell to me......

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I am disgusted with everyone talking about what is and isn't unsafe. The precautions we have taken to treat this race for what it is has been discussed. We have gone over every possible scenario. We have taken into account the bail out points and to start or not to start. Yes we have thought about the seriousness of the race. I am racing my 24 to Mackinac. I am even bringing my daughters on board with me. Two collegiate sailing racers. Both trained in safety at sea. Two with experience in extreme conditions that can happen. They have been on big boats in crappy weather along as on our 24. We have met all the safety requirements that are place by the coast guard and race committee. As to those that think they would have to have a rescue in 50 degree water in the middle of the night. Is ridiculous. I know freak things happen with nature. My first Mackinac was in 1985 on a Cal 27. So please don't talk to me about the conditions. If I ever felt at one point my family was at risk I would retire from the race. For the agenda from PHRF LE the same ones who don't want us to sail at Bay Week they can kiss my ass. racing your beer can races and an occasional weekend race truly won't let you endure the true strength it takes to be a racer. I am sorry that the people we race against feel that we don't belong there. The good thing is we are racing and God willing we will see our conditions and we will be having a ride of a lifetime. So J29 guy stop your whining. It's annoying. If your the sailor you claim to be, bring it to the course and we will see you there.

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Lets hope it doesnt get too windy, to me these look like dinghys pretending to be keelers.

 

2004nationals5.jpg

 

Doing something to the halyard?

 

crew-standing-on-the-keel-of-a-capsized-

 

WTF is a boat doing capsized in that?

 

Alt_m24w07raced5-05H.jpg

 

Not bad for a quick reef but how the hell are they going to unreef it in the light?

 

 

I am sure in the right conditions these will be an adrenaline pumping blast, but best not be to far from the trailer when it gets serious.

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Lets hope it doesnt get too windy, to me these look like dinghys pretending to be keelers.

 

2004nationals5.jpg

 

Doing something to the halyard?

 

crew-standing-on-the-keel-of-a-capsized-

 

WTF is a boat doing capsized in that?

 

Alt_m24w07raced5-05H.jpg

 

Not bad for a quick reef but how the hell are they going to unreef it in the light?

 

 

I am sure in the right conditions these will be an adrenaline pumping blast, but best not be to far from the trailer when it gets serious.

post-118213-0-13257800-1433297798_thumb.jpg

post-118213-0-66765100-1433297811_thumb.jpg

post-118213-0-65836100-1433297822_thumb.jpg

post-118213-0-15835900-1433297835_thumb.jpg

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Well I guess you can google a bunch of pictures and post them. Looks like a J29 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. Maybe the Farr 40 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. And God forbid we have any big boats because our bulb could fall off and capsize. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race. That's it it's official The 2015 Port Huron to Mackinac is cancelled because a bunch of sailors are afraid that something might break.

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Well I guess you can google a bunch of pictures and post them. Looks like a J29 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. Maybe the Farr 40 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. And God forbid we have any big boats because our bulb could fall off and capsize. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race. That's it it's official The 2015 Port Huron to Mackinac is cancelled because a bunch of sailors are afraid that something might break.

in the capsized melges photos has anything on those boats broken?

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Well I guess you can google a bunch of pictures and post them. Looks like a J29 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. Maybe the Farr 40 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. And God forbid we have any big boats because our bulb could fall off and capsize. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race. That's it it's official The 2015 Port Huron to Mackinac is cancelled because a bunch of sailors are afraid that something might break.

 

Yep. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race or this might happen:

 

ca-fl-whale-1-done-2.jpg

 

ca-fl-whale-crash-done-1-300x190.jpg

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No Alpha 42's

No ECO40's

Absolutely no open 60's ( fixed keelers ok )

No Farr VO70's

Nothing being entered by Toni Bullimore, Abby Sunderland, Isabelle Autissier. Can Yves Parlier come? Has proven to fix the rigs he's broken can he get an exemption?

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Well I guess you can google a bunch of pictures and post them. Looks like a J29 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. Maybe the Farr 40 shouldn't be allowed because their mast could break. And God forbid we have any big boats because our bulb could fall off and capsize. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race. That's it it's official The 2015 Port Huron to Mackinac is cancelled because a bunch of sailors are afraid that something might break.

 

Yep. Sounds like it's time to cancel the race or this might happen:

 

ca-fl-whale-1-done-2.jpg

 

ca-fl-whale-crash-done-1-300x190.jpg

Is that one of those flying great lakes carp I have been hearing about?
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Gsemack--

 

 

You're taking two college-aged sailing chicks?

 

I dare say that the greatest danger to them will be the threat to their virtue at the party after the race.

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We have spent our entire winter working on safety potocal - not just for ourselves but also sharing information between the three boats registered. What we have come up with is fantastic with very few Mods to the One Design Boat.... Meaning it will still be a One Design Boat at the end. What I want more than everything is for each of us to make it safe and sound to the island.

 

 

Can you share how you've augmented the minimum safety requirements? Thanks.

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6. Potty - Travel Potty fits nicely in the engine compartment. Just open the cockpit hatch and there you go. Excrement gets saved it plastic bags (Not looking forward to that part)

 

 

 

Do what mountaineers do. Each crew gets a 2' - or so- pvc pipe of a certain diameter. Seal the bottom. Put some kitty litter in it. Get a cap for the top. Shit in pipe. Much easier than your bag.

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Yes sure some of that about big weather and how I will handle it but also about if we get that perfect wind condition where we pop a kite and tear up the lake for 5 to 8 hours (With my trailer waiting for me on the other end!). What sport boat sailor hasn't dreamed of that?

 

This is what sailing is all about kids!

 

+1

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Thanks! Well thought out approaches.

 

Clove, this race shouldn't be more than 30-35 hrs and possibly less, 2'? Do you sail with horses. Also, it has an open transom. ;)

 

Less than 30 hours? Pheeeew. M24 is fast but not rocket-fueled. 2013 was a fast race - like, "wow, look how many boats finished on Sunday" fast - and outside of the turbo boats the only shore course boas finishing under 30 hours were the Shaw 9, J44, and J145. Nah. Over 35 hours is a safe bet. 40 hours more like.

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Thanks! Well thought out approaches.

 

Clove, this race shouldn't be more than 30-35 hrs and possibly less, 2'? Do you sail with horses. Also, it has an open transom. ;)

 

Less than 30 hours? Pheeeew. M24 is fast but not rocket-fueled. 2013 was a fast race - like, "wow, look how many boats finished on Sunday" fast - and outside of the turbo boats the only shore course boas finishing under 30 hours were the Shaw 9, J44, and J145. Nah. Over 35 hours is a safe bet. 40 hours more like.

 

You're right, I was being very optimistic. Don't want to think about worse case scenario.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

No. It will badly sag to leeward. Better solution is to hoist the trysail in the bolt rope slot. Main halyard will have to be strong enough. Trysail can probably sheet to spin sheet blocks.

If you're trying to rig an emergency trysail, like using a small jib, then lace it to the mast below the spreaders. A few feet above the spreaders being unlaced is probably ok.

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Yeah I gathered it wouldn't be ideal, I just thought it might open up more TWA options, depending on the boat Vs sailing under jib alone & it wouldn't cost as much as a sail they aren't intending of using.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

No. It will badly sag to leeward. Better solution is to hoist the trysail in the bolt rope slot. Main halyard will have to be strong enough. Trysail can probably sheet to spin sheet blocks.

If you're trying to rig an emergency trysail, like using a small jib, then lace it to the mast below the spreaders. A few feet above the spreaders being unlaced is probably ok.

 

 

Yes you would want to get it up in the air so that it will have less tendency to be blanketed by waves or jarred heavily by solid water coming across the deck. However I have tried small boat sails as storm sails and they tend to have a useful life measured in minutes... the slightest flogging or flapping in 40+ winds plus the load of a much heavier boat than they're intended for shreds them almost instantly.

 

Might work better as a trysail with the luff well supported; my above comment is based on experience flying Lightning jibs as storm staysails. Perfect size & cut, terrible longevity.

;)

 

FB- Doug

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I built a dedicated storm jib for FrankenScot guys for just that reason. About 15 sq ft, 6 1/2 oz Dacron, large reinforcement patches. It'll handle any wind in which it can be flown, but it's primary purpose is for balance close-hauled with a double-reefed main in 30+. Could be flown alone reaching off in 50-60 though.

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One more thing that I would like to add:

 

There will be two very critical moments leading up to and during the race. Before we leave shore we will make a determination based on forecasts if it is safe to go. Noticed that I used the word safe (Not favorable). if the forecast calls for less than ideal racing for the MELGES24 we are going anyway. I am not doing this just to go win a race based on rating. If the weather calls for a beat the entire way, as long as it is safe for the boat and the crew, we are going.

 

The second critical call will come at Harbor Beach before we go out into Saginaw Bay. There is roughly 50 or so miles of open water without close places to pull out. I will use the same criteria for that call. Any other place on the course we will have many options is we need to find a place to pull in.

 

I don't know about my crew but I am bringing a drysuit! Just ordered it from Line Honors.

 

ND

Would have thought drysuits be a mandatory item, especially as you have mentioned safety is a priority.

 

What are you expecting the crew to turn up with? If they haven't figured they need a drysuit on an M24............?

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

The problem with this is a very old one. The worlds two oldest professions are sailor and prostitute.

And chafe is the enemy of both.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

The problem with this is a very old one. The worlds two oldest professions are sailor and prostitute.

And chafe is the enemy of both.

Lord Dubs must have surely have a cure for this.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

The problem with this is a very old one. The worlds two oldest professions are sailor and prostitute.

And chafe is the enemy of both.

Lord Dubs must have surely have a cure for this.

Maybe that is his problem. That man bag is chaffing on his love handles.

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Ive wondered if a small dinghy jib hanked onto the main halyard ( and hoisted with another halyard ) would work as a trysail if you needed to keep the bow upwind & you couldn't just run downwind under a small jib.

The problem with this is a very old one. The worlds two oldest professions are sailor and prostitute.

And chafe is the enemy of both.

That's a good point. I was just thinking out loud. With no lifelines i'm limited to local races in the bay anyway. My plan would be boom and main off & stowed down the hatch, small jib only & some tension on both runners.

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Mad - you clearly have never sailed on a melges24. Go sail on one and you can answer your own question.

 

ND

 

No shout out to me for telling you how to avoid shitting into a plastic bag? I say, good day sir!

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Napoleon

 

Have a great race! After that prep, it'll be fun, I am sure.

 

Do you think that in three years, having seen 10-12 Melgi 24s compete successfully, the 13th new entrant will take as much care prepping for the race? The individual breaking new ground will take care to make sure that they are ready, but the trick will be making sure that the class maintains good standards in the future. Do you think entrants of this sort deserve special attention pre-race, either by interview or inspection, to make sure that other members of that class aren't let down by avoidable problems?

 

Yes, I know this isn't "fair" in the sense that I haven't said that the J29s should be subjected to the same scrutiny, but we are spitballing here, and I'm looking for rational discussion. I think that pushing the envelope and having smaller boats do distance races is a welcome idea, one that I have embraced through participation in Watertribe events. If you want to make the idea endure, there has to be reliable prep on the part of entrants, well beyond that which would be sufficient for keelboats. (I.e., drysuits, hypothermia kits, PLBs for each crew.)

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Just cannot resist poking a bit of fun at my old friend Joli. (Sorry I'm late getting here.)

 

He wrote, " At races end parties were aboard boats with crews co mingling, not under the party tents. There was camaraderie, not hostility."

 

OK, sure, but with the noteworthy exception of the fistfights in the parking lot !!

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Mad - you clearly have never sailed on a melges24. Go sail on one and you can answer your own question.

ND

What was my question??

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Mad - you clearly have never sailed on a melges24. Go sail on one and you can answer your own question.

ND

What was my question??

 

Obviously the answer is 42. 24 is 42 backwards. Coincidence? I don't think so.

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Mad - you clearly have never sailed on a melges24. Go sail on one and you can answer your own question.

ND

What was my question??

 

Obviously the answer is 42. 24 is 42 backwards. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

Cocktails anybody??

 

  • Take the juice from one bottle of Ol' Janx Spirit.
  • Pour into it one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V — Oh, that Santraginean seawater! Oh, those Santraginean fish!
  • Allow three cubes of Arcturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzene is lost).
  • Allow four litres of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia.
  • Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint extract, redolent of all the heady odours of the dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet and mystic.
  • Drop in the tooth of an Algolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Algolian Suns deep into the heart of the drink.
  • Sprinkle Zamphuor.
  • Add an olive.
  • Drink... but... very carefully...
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The M-24 does not have to have a bow pulpit, foredeck toe rails so the RC requires them to have harnesses on while on deck then in the next sentence says it is up to skipper as whether they wear them.

 

 

 

This is another thing that has irked me for quite some time. Why does the lack of a bow pulpit make the M24 less safe? I see it as being analogous to feeling unsafe on an airplane because the wings don't have life lines. You don't need to go on the bow of a M24 just like you don't need to go on the wing of an airplane, so using this as an argument for a less safe design is not brilliant.

 

That's true - until something fucks up and you have to fix it.

 

I am all for letting people sail what they want at their own peril. Hell we considered taking the Viper for the Mac race a few years back but decided the involved cost and hoops to jump through (5-6K for the ORR rating alone that we would never use for another race) and having to sail with 5 crew (and all the safety gear) wasn't worth it since we could easily have to can it the morning of the race.

There is also no doubt that sailing a M24 for that race has a bunch of risk built into it - if the shit hits the fan it could end up in tears - hopefully only for the crew and not some helpful souls trying to help yanking their soggy ass out of the piss.

 

While a M24 and a J29 may have similar SI there is a whole lot of bigger safety margin in the J29 than the M24 - anybody claiming otherwise has their head up their ass.

 

Is it a smart decision to do that race in M24 - I would call it borderline - if the crew has the right safety gear available - if not, it could prove to be pretty stupid. Let Darwin decide.

 

Agree with another poster above that the scenario of a rig failure and trying to get to safety with a small outboard in a good blow could prove to be problematic

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The M-24 does not have to have a bow pulpit, foredeck toe rails so the RC requires them to have harnesses on while on deck then in the next sentence says it is up to skipper as whether they wear them.

 

 

This is another thing that has irked me for quite some time. Why does the lack of a bow pulpit make the M24 less safe? I see it as being analogous to feeling unsafe on an airplane because the wings don't have life lines. You don't need to go on the bow of a M24 just like you don't need to go on the wing of an airplane, so using this as an argument for a less safe design is not brilliant.

That's true - until something fucks up and you have to fix it.

 

I am all for letting people sail what they want at their own peril. Hell we considered taking the Viper for the Mac race a few years back but decided the involved cost and hoops to jump through (5-6K for the ORR rating alone that we would never use for another race) and having to sail with 5 crew (and all the safety gear) wasn't worth it since we could easily have to can it the morning of the race.

There is also no doubt that sailing a M24 for that race has a bunch of risk built into it - if the shit hits the fan it could end up in tears - hopefully only for the crew and not some helpful souls trying to help yanking their soggy ass out of the piss.

 

While a M24 and a J29 may have similar SI there is a whole lot of bigger safety margin in the J29 than the M24 - anybody claiming otherwise has their head up their ass.

 

Is it a smart decision to do that race in M24 - I would call it borderline - if the crew has the right safety gear available - if not, it could prove to be pretty stupid. Let Darwin decide.

 

Agree with another poster above that the scenario of a rig failure and trying to get to safety with a small outboard in a good blow could prove to be problematic

Especially if they have to rescue a crew member whose gone over the side in full offshore gear, rather than a drysuit.

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Mad, how is that unique to the M24? I can't imagine an easier boat in the fleet to get someone (no matter how they're decked out) back aboard. I'd worry more about a high freeboard boat without an open transom. Now that a Lifesling isn't required, how do you get a soaking wet 250# person back on board?

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For once, I agree with solition.

 

Also the issue of being underpowered with an outboard applies to all boats equipped that way.

 

Mad, how is that unique to the M24? I can't imagine an easier boat in the fleet to get someone (no matter how they're decked out) back aboard. I'd worry more about a high freeboard boat without an open transom. Now that a Lifesling isn't required, how do you get a soaking wet 250# person back on board?

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