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14 hours ago, Panope said:

Thanks IStream,

So, maybe I should set up a camera to the side and film "profile" shots of the anchors while they are deployed/retrieved over a roller.  I could super impose the anchor over a grid of dimension lines (like a mug shot) so the viewer could see exactly how much clear space they will need.

Does that sound useful? 

Extremely.

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When I started the anchor videos, it was just the underwater stuff and on-screen text.  Right away the accusations started flying that I was working for a particular anchor manufacturer.  Understandab

Winch testing commences.

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8 minutes ago, Mais78 said:

Steve you got an Epsilon finally? Is it as good as the Spade?

Yes, I have a Stainless Steel, 45 pound (42 pounds on my scale) Epsilon.

I have not yet fully tested the anchor.  However, I have conducted two tests that indicate the anchor will likely not perform as well as the Spade anchor

Epsilon Test/Video should be ready in 2 weeks.

Steve

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11 minutes ago, IStream said:

Great data, thanks Steve!

Just kicked in some PayPal beer money for your efforts.

Thanks a million!

Steve

 

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4 minutes ago, Panope said:

Yes, I have a Stainless Steel, 45 pound (42 pounds on my scale) Epsilon.

I have not yet fully tested the anchor.  However, I have conducted two tests that indicate the anchor will likely not perform as well as the Spade anchor

Epsilon Test/Video should be ready in 2 weeks.

Steve

Look forward! Hope not to regret the S80 I just ordered...

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2 minutes ago, Mais78 said:

Look forward! Hope not to regret the S80 I just ordered...

The only regret about a Steel Spade is the "self disintegrating" galvanizing.  That said, I have heard that Spade is now attempting to isolate the lead by covering/coating it with some kind of thick coating (epoxy?) 

When you receive your new anchor, please give us a report.

Steve 

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Just now, Panope said:

The only regret about a Steel Spade is the "self disintegrating" galvanizing.  That said, I have heard that Spade is now attempting to isolate the lead by covering/coating it with some kind of thick coating (epoxy?) 

When you receive your new anchor, please give us a report.

Steve 

Very happy to help. Only issue is that I will get my hands on it only end of July.

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Steve, I have noticed in the last couple of vids that the video is "jumpy". Quick flicks like someone is tapping the tripod. Is that at your end or is that YouTube?

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Steve, I have noticed in the last couple of vids that the video is "jumpy". Quick flicks like someone is tapping the tripod. Is that at your end or is that YouTube?

It is at my end.  One of my (2) GoPro cameras seems to be acting up......

.....Ok, I just did a quick search.  Looks like the "hypersmooth" image stabilization may be the culpit.  I'll turn the shit off and see if it helps. 

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:48 PM, Panope said:

The only regret about a Steel Spade is the "self disintegrating" galvanizing.  That said, I have heard that Spade is now attempting to isolate the lead by covering/coating it with some kind of thick coating (epoxy?) 

When you receive your new anchor, please give us a report.

Steve 

Steve, I called Spade and asked about new galvanizing process and lead covering. I am not sure I spoke to the right person but she said that galvanization has been improved 2-3 years ago and are not making other changes.

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6 hours ago, Mais78 said:

Steve, I called Spade and asked about new galvanizing process and lead covering. I am not sure I spoke to the right person but she said that galvanization has been improved 2-3 years ago and are not making other changes.

Thanks for the info, Mais

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Hi Steve,

You need to add a column on availability. Many of the anchors you test are just not available to retail buyers in the US, which makes it all a bit pointless (for US based viewers). For example, I have looked around for options for buying a Viking (despite my dislike for their business model) and it would have to be imported from the UK - it is just not practical.

It also raises another point that I have not seem you address in your videos. If you are being sent anchors for testing from small manufacturers like Viking, are you not in effect doing their R and D and advertising for them? Is it fair to manufacturers like Mantus that actually supply products that people can buy and have to maintain the associated costs of manufacture and a supply chain?

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16 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Hi Steve,

You need to add a column on availability. Many of the anchors you test are just not available to retail buyers in the US, which makes it all a bit pointless (for US based viewers). For example, I have looked around for options for buying a Viking (despite my dislike for their business model) and it would have to be imported from the UK - it is just not practical.

It also raises another point that I have not seem you address in your videos. If you are being sent anchors for testing from small manufacturers like Viking, are you not in effect doing their R and D and advertising for them? Is it fair to manufacturers like Mantus that actually supply products that people can buy and have to maintain the associated costs of manufacture and a supply chain?

2104409033_Screenshot_2021-03-31VikingAnchors-Vendors.png.cf8c8955cff3e2ac0a2b6a204f57c812.png

Have you talked to the US office?

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18 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Hi Steve,

You need to add a column on availability. Many of the anchors you test are just not available to retail buyers in the US, which makes it all a bit pointless (for US based viewers). For example, I have looked around for options for buying a Viking (despite my dislike for their business model) and it would have to be imported from the UK - it is just not practical.

It also raises another point that I have not seem you address in your videos. If you are being sent anchors for testing from small manufacturers like Viking, are you not in effect doing their R and D and advertising for them? Is it fair to manufacturers like Mantus that actually supply products that people can buy and have to maintain the associated costs of manufacture and a supply chain?

Hi Guvacine,

Just under 30% of my viewers are in the US.  The rest are scattered literally all over the globe.  I cannot possibly verify availability for every corner of this large country, let alone the world.

Yes, manufacturers that submit anchors get free advertising and test Data, but the door is open to all and therefore "fair".  

Note: The Mantus company has summited a total of 4 anchors to me.

Steve 

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55 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Hi Steve,

You need to add a column on availability. Many of the anchors you test are just not available to retail buyers in the US, which makes it all a bit pointless (for US based viewers). For example, I have looked around for options for buying a Viking (despite my dislike for their business model) and it would have to be imported from the UK - it is just not practical.

It also raises another point that I have not seem you address in your videos. If you are being sent anchors for testing from small manufacturers like Viking, are you not in effect doing their R and D and advertising for them? Is it fair to manufacturers like Mantus that actually supply products that people can buy and have to maintain the associated costs of manufacture and a supply chain?

Steve is a global star, not just US :-) The same applies to European or Asian buyers, we are asking him too much work IMHO, we can do our own research to buy

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I agree with Mais. Steve's doing a kick-ass job doing really thorough, empirical, and well documented testing. People can figure out where to buy and what's best for their seabed.

I'm super fortunate I'm in the PNW on the other side of the cheese curtain from Steve so his current testing sites apply well to me :)

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1 hour ago, climenuts said:

I agree with Mais. Steve's doing a kick-ass job doing really thorough, empirical, and well documented testing. People can figure out where to buy and what's best for their seabed.

I'm super fortunate I'm in the PNW on the other side of the cheese curtain from Steve so his current testing sites apply well to me :)

To be honest, I have never considered anchoring anywhere that says "shingle" or "stone", so that whole segment does not apply to me. I would imagine a cobblestone anchor would be a very strange beast.

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11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

To be honest, I have never considered anchoring anywhere that says "shingle" or "stone", so that whole segment does not apply to me. I would imagine a cobblestone anchor would be a very strange beast.

True.

Also true, is that with very rare exception (for the above reason), every time I have anchored on rock or cobble it was NOT noted on the chart. Harbors near towns are typically well annotated, but off the beaten track the bottom is more likely to be a mystery. Even soundings are often based on decades old data (I've seen lots of 40-year old chart data) that is sparse at that.

It depends a lot on where you sail, but I doubt any area is 100% one thing. I did a lot of rock testing in my local area, and was then told that such bottoms did not exist in the area... presumably because they had never anchored those places.

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16 hours ago, climenuts said:

I agree with Mais. Steve's doing a kick-ass job doing really thorough, empirical, and well documented testing. People can figure out where to buy and what's best for their seabed.

I'm super fortunate I'm in the PNW on the other side of the cheese curtain from Steve so his current testing sites apply well to me :)

I was not being critical of Steve - he is doing an awesome job. I think that the point is still valid though. It is worth knowing if a manufacturer actually has a supply chain and that you can buy them vs another that only makes 5 anchors a week and you have to mail order them from outer Mongolia (or Australia).

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Steve's efforts are an excellent first step in anchor purchase diligence but things like supply chain diligence are best handled by the potential purchaser because there are so many different geographies.

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1 hour ago, Guvacine said:

I was not being critical of Steve - he is doing an awesome job. I think that the point is still valid though. It is worth knowing if a manufacturer actually has a supply chain and that you can buy them vs another that only makes 5 anchors a week and you have to mail order them from outer Mongolia (or Australia).

 Do your own damn shopping like everyone else.

Steve is doing extensive and expensive groundbreaking ( no, I'm not sorry) research, your mewling is annoying.

 

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5 hours ago, thinwater said:

True.

Also true, is that with very rare exception (for the above reason), every time I have anchored on rock or cobble it was NOT noted on the chart. Harbors near towns are typically well annotated, but off the beaten track the bottom is more likely to be a mystery. Even soundings are often based on decades old data (I've seen lots of 40-year old chart data) that is sparse at that.

It depends a lot on where you sail, but I doubt any area is 100% one thing. I did a lot of rock testing in my local area, and was then told that such bottoms did not exist in the area... presumably because they had never anchored those places.

I'd love to have 40 year old chart data. I've got charts for areas of desolation sound where the soundings are from 1792 from Captain George Vancouver... They're shockingly accurate but there's a heavy reliance on cruising guides for the smaller hidey holes that were probably just glossed over 200 years ago.

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On 3/31/2021 at 8:52 AM, Guvacine said:

You need to add a column on availability. Many of the anchors you test are just not available to retail buyers in the US, which makes it all a bit pointless (for US based viewers)

Maybe people from outside the US are interested too...?

 

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I would go bug Farber at Fisheries and a similar good chandlery in BC about reaching out to Steve and seeing what happens. This thread has massive viewership and it would be nice of Steve could benefit from all the work. A outside sales person would be nuts to not try and buy advertising and try to link their product range to the videos.

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51 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I would go bug Farber at Fisheries and a similar good chandlery in BC about reaching out to Steve and seeing what happens. This thread has massive viewership and it would be nice of Steve could benefit from all the work. A outside sales person would be nuts to not try and buy advertising and try to link their product range to the videos.

If you are suggesting that one manufacturer or supplier sponsor Steve, that's a slippery slope. I much prefer the subscriber-supported model. As soon as you have advertising for one brand or supplier there is a presumption of bias, however honest the reviewer.

I have no problem with manufacturers supplying test product, that is a good thing to do. One thing they could do is donate the anchors to the program and let Steve sell them after the torture tests.

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No not a manufacturer, I agree slippery slope but definitely a chandlery, in the US Fisheries supply Defender etc are still run by humans and rep many brands, I would guess there is a equivalent in BC.  Something small a discount link or coupon via his Youtube page and maybe he gets a little for all the work.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Maybe people from outside the US are interested too...?

 

Quote "which makes it a bit pointless (for US based viewers)".

Not like you to be snarky Zonker.

Still, even though it seems that this has become a "positive comments only" thread, I would love to hear from someone who has actually managed to buy and take possession of a new Viking anchor, that is not in the Eastern Med.

 

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8 hours ago, Guvacine said:

I think that the point is still valid though. It is worth knowing if a manufacturer actually has a supply chain and that you can buy them

At which countries do you want Steve to list in his summary table? US, Canada, UK, Australia, France, Mexico and Caribbean islands for our longer ranged cruising buddies. Better throw in Italy and Greece. Oh, forgot NZ too. They always get ignored.

Sounds like a plan right? 

Or maybe if you're interested in an anchor you do some legwork and see if it's available in YOUR country. 

Then post it in the Youtube comments section so others can benefit from your work.

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Its great that Zonker and Autonomous are reacting to a perceived criticism of Steve's work. I will say again that I am an admirer of the great work done by Steve and it was supposed to be a constructive comment.

And, thanks for the homework assignment - that is the whole I point. I have tried to buy a Viking anchor and it cannot be had for love or money without a prohibitive freight bill from Europe.

It IS an issue if Steve's testing reveals a "best" anchor that no-one can actually buy (in this case outside of Greece or Israel).

So I'll ask again - has anyone actually managed to buy and take possession of a new Viking anchor?

A serious question pointing out an issue with Steve's model is a lot more valuable (to Steve) than a whole bunch of folks saying "love your work".

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^ don't get butthurt over some barbs.  There are a few people on here CF who really go way above and beyond with tech value and advice. Steve's project is up there, but Zonker, Russel Brown, Evans,  Rass etc all weigh in regularly with what in any other instance would be billable advice.  They are very supportive of the community here and many regular visitors are also protective so there you go.

Your conundrum is appreciated and goes to the heart of the catch 22 of this sort of open source testing and info. It reminds me of the Ted talks with the Mass engineer geniuos who tried to give away his water purification setup to the WHO, they said this is great but we don't do that, he ended up partnering with Coke. Steve has some great info here and it's ripe for a distributor with half a brain to figure bout how to keep it going and make better. 

Your issue also brings up a good point, has anyone at Viking ever gotten thru to someone who counts and said hey your product is great but I can't get it WTF??  This is good feedback to go here and hopefully be added to a distributor who does care and sees the market potential.

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Steve did say in one of his videos that it was up to the reader to disregard any column he did not feel was relevant to his personal evaluation, or to change the weighting, as you please.  For example, toe weight is interesting, and it is a part of anchor design, but it no more a performance factor than shank length or fluke width. Performance reflects performance, so I ignore that column. If I can't get a certain anchor, it falls out of the running, but I'd still like to hear about it. Some people have said they don't care about rock. OK. I do.

The other thing to remember about testing anchors is that the data is all over the place.  It's like herding cats. Steve throws in opinion in some evaluations. It's hard not to. But he also reminds us to draw our own conclusions and not to take the easy way and just read the summaries.  Remember how anchors sometimes reverse rank order, and read tests by other people in other parts of the world. Read cruiser experience. Mix it all together and stir.

We're learning. Steve has added some great new wrinkles, and he is still learning.

Very cool.

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Thanks, Steve. I've been seriously considering selling my 85lb M1 and getting a 65lb M2. My M1 has been fantastic but since I added my retractable sprit, it doesn't fit well on my bow. Both the design of the M2 and the downsizing would enhance fit quite a bit. 

Shame about the QC on the M2 sample Mantus sent you. I'd be very interested to hear what they have to say about that.

Also, I saw from your comment on the video that you have a line on a partially threaded titanium bolt. Would that option be strictly for the 45lb version or would it apply to the 65 pounder as well?

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Stream, This morning, I received an Email form Greg at Mantus that indicated that they will address the issue in the coming weeks.  I reckon they will need to do some "communicating" with outfit that does their (overseas) manufacturing. 

I need to do a bit more research as to weather titainium is an appropriate metal for this application (titainium+galvanized steel+saltwater).   Assuming it is a good choice, I'll order a sample from an outfit like Ti64.  They sell hex bolts up to 3/4" diameter.  The 45lb. M2 uses 5/8", so it looks like the 65lb. M2 is covered (assuming it uses 3/4").

Looks like $20 will do it:  https://www.ti64.com/ex-head-sae-s/110110.htm

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Thanks, Steve. Greg Kutsen and Mantus has always been responsive and responsible, I'm sure they'll get it sorted. 

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Steve, liked the self launch test but there is one thing you skipped over: the self launch chain drag for the Spade? My Spades have been fine at that, just wondered how it compared with the others.

I have two boats now, on both I designed or modified the sprit/roller to fit the anchor(s) for launching and secure storage. I guess no one else does that? Often quite a lot can be done just by changing the roller size.

Have you considered designing your own anchor? You probably know as much or more than anyone in the world on what makes them work at this point ....

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Have there been any tests of the Gal/SS V the Aluminum Spade anchors of the same size?

It would be a significant weight savings on the bow.

This chart copied from the Spade website.

 

Length Boat Weight Anchor Model Galvanized & Stainless Weight Aluminum Weight
21 ft. <2,200 lbs. 40 12 lbs. 6 lbs.
24 ft. <4,850 lbs. 60 21 lbs. 10 lbs.
34 ft. <9,920 lbs. 80 N/A 15 lbs.
41 ft. <14,330 lbs. 80 33 lbs. N/A
52 ft. <26,450 lbs. 100 44 lbs. 26 lbs.
59 ft. <35,270 lbs. 120 55 lbs. N/A
65 ft. <44,000 lbs. 140 66 lbs. 41 lbs.
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9 hours ago, DDW said:

Steve, liked the self launch test but there is one thing you skipped over: the self launch chain drag for the Spade? My Spades have been fine at that, just wondered how it compared with the others.

I have two boats now, on both I designed or modified the sprit/roller to fit the anchor(s) for launching and secure storage. I guess no one else does that? Often quite a lot can be done just by changing the roller size.

Have you considered designing your own anchor? You probably know as much or more than anyone in the world on what makes them work at this point ....

DDW, the Spade had very high self launching power.  I accidentally cut the footage during the edit.  It pulled the full 16' and received a "5" for "self launching power" on the chart.

I suppose I could design an anchor that would perform as well or perhaps even better than any other as a "one off".  Just use titanium and something really heavy like tungsten for ballast.  That would be a fun project.

 The real challenge is designing an anchor that can be manufactured and sold at a profit. 

I have absolutely zero interest in starting an anchor manufacturing business.

Selling an innovative anchor design to another party is problematic because the design must be revealed to potential buyers BEFORE they pay for it.  Once they see it, they copy it.

Steve

 

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12 minutes ago, Mais78 said:

Unless you register the patent

From what a hear, the patent process is even more nauseating (to me) than running a manufacturing business.  And probably not good protection as others simply modify the design slightly.  I would shoot myself before engaging in a courtroom battle over this.

In case anyone hasn't figured it out already, I am not motivated by money (much).

Steve

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carlwasher, 

I have not tested an aluminum Spade anchor.

I reckon Spade has not submitted one because the shank would likely not survive my highspeed 180 degree reset test.  

Aluminum Spade shanks are well know to be considerably weaker than the steel versions.

Steve

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1 hour ago, Panope said:

DDW, the Spade had very high self launching power.  I accidentally cut the footage during the edit.  It pulled the full 16' and received a "5" for "self launching power" on the chart.

I suppose I could design an anchor that would perform as well or perhaps even better than any other as a "one off".  Just use titanium and something really heavy like tungsten for ballast.  That would be a fun project.

 The real challenge is designing an anchor that can be manufactured and sold at a profit. 

I have absolutely zero interest in starting an anchor manufacturing business.

Selling an innovative anchor design to another party is problematic because the design must be revealed to potential buyers BEFORE they pay for it.  Once they see it, they copy it.

Steve

 

Yeah, not thinking "manufacture and sell", just "design and test". I doubt large fortunes are being made in the yacht anchor business. Most yacht buyers of anchors value price first and performance second, if at all. However a nice DYI design knowing what you do would let a select few with the skills to make one enjoy it. Right now if I was building one it would probably be like the Spade except with a solid shank. Ti and W would be the next step. Perhaps spent uranium as ballast, the business proposition would be to accept large amounts of cash to dispose of spent uranium, and give the anchors away:).

I've been through the patent process many times, good IP attorneys are expensive (mine is most recently charging $750/hr). The value to a small company isn't so much the ability to sue a big infringer as that is even more expensive. Rather it is to lay some claim to the IP so that when approached by a big company for a buyout you have something to sell. The big company wants the IP protected because they have the desire and ability to enforce it. A simple US patent will cost you around $30K in legal and patent fees, and a like amount for the EU jurisdiction. There isn't much point in patents in Asia as the concept of Intellectual Property means very little there. 

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15 hours ago, DDW said:

Yeah, not thinking "manufacture and sell", just "design and test". I doubt large fortunes are being made in the yacht anchor business. Most yacht buyers of anchors value price first and performance second, if at all. However a nice DYI design knowing what you do would let a select few with the skills to make one enjoy it. Right now if I was building one it would probably be like the Spade except with a solid shank. Ti and W would be the next step. Perhaps spent uranium as ballast, the business proposition would be to accept large amounts of cash to dispose of spent uranium, and give the anchors away:).

I've been through the patent process many times, good IP attorneys are expensive (mine is most recently charging $750/hr). The value to a small company isn't so much the ability to sue a big infringer as that is even more expensive. Rather it is to lay some claim to the IP so that when approached by a big company for a buyout you have something to sell. The big company wants the IP protected because they have the desire and ability to enforce it. A simple US patent will cost you around $30K in legal and patent fees, and a like amount for the EU jurisdiction. There isn't much point in patents in Asia as the concept of Intellectual Property means very little there. 

Having spent my career gathering up and disposing of lots and lots of uranium and other similar metals, I can reasonably say that YOU DO NOT WANT THE LIABILITY ASSOCIATED WITH PUTTING ANY RADIONUCLIDE INTO THE WATER IN SOMEONES SWIMMING OR FISHING AREA.

:) 

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You never know what you will find in the bilge, a small wood power boat that was in the same shop in Ballard that did a bunch of work on our boat had to pull all it's ballast for work.  It was some unknown mystery alloy, they had it tested and it turned out to be something they use to make the nozzles on jet engines, was worth over $20k.

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On 4/5/2021 at 7:27 AM, Panope said:

I reckon Spade has not submitted one because the shank would likely not survive my highspeed 180 degree reset test.

Hi Steve,

I bent an aluminum A120 shank in Bora Bora - it was a big trade wind shift/gust with a 90+ degree veer. However in this case the anchor was in/under a chunk of coral or rock and it couldn't pivot at all. The bend was minimal and didn't stop us using the anchor but we relegated it to secondary status in Australia and used a Manson Boss after that.

We had been in lots of situations before where the wind changed suddenly and the boat, being a catamaran with not much in the water, would take off downwind while the monos were just starting to spin. The anchor would rotate and then the chain would come taut with a big shudder. Never bent the shank in those situations.

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Zonk,  it is a shame that Spade did not send an aluminum anchor.

Note:  Spade USA was the first anchor manufacturer to submit an anchor (S100) for testing.   Had they not, the ball may have never started rolling.

Steve

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I'll just add that I loved the Spade. It was only 33 lbs but held our catamaran at about 4:1 scope in > 85 knot winds. Hard not to like that sort of performance.

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6 hours ago, gwilcox said:

Steve, I have an A100 on order.  Whenever it arrives you are welcome to test it.

Excellent.

Shoot me a message when it is available.

Steve

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On 4/6/2021 at 6:14 PM, Zonker said:

Hi Steve,

I bent an aluminum A120 shank in Bora Bora - it was a big trade wind shift/gust with a 90+ degree veer. However in this case the anchor was in/under a chunk of coral or rock and it couldn't pivot at all. The bend was minimal and didn't stop us using the anchor but we relegated it to secondary status in Australia and used a Manson Boss after that.

We had been in lots of situations before where the wind changed suddenly and the boat, being a catamaran with not much in the water, would take off downwind while the monos were just starting to spin. The anchor would rotate and then the chain would come taut with a big shudder. Never bent the shank in those situations.

Zonks, 

How do you like the Boss? Ajax made me buy one of those huge f-ers and now I have a 25 lbs. stingray hanging off my roller. I have only splashed it at the dock so far to test deployment and retrieval, but I hope to be on the hook this summer a lot more.

Boss.jpg

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I have a 15# Boss on my 22' C-Dory, it as always the biggest anchor in relation to boat size by a good margin wherever we are. My first one had bad galvanizing, I think a bunch of the early ones did. It took a small pissing match to get Jamestown Supply and Schaefer Marine to replace it and I had to eat the shipping. The new one has slightly redesigned ears for simplified construction and has good galvanizing. Have not used it enough to give a proper assessment but no complaints.

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We had a 45# Boss on our 40' catamaran. Held fine in 50+ knots extended duration. It was fairly easy conditions. Small wind waves because of a reef to windward, sandy bottom, plenty of scope. 

Seemed to set on short scope a bit easier than the Spade which didn't like less than 4:1 when setting.

Didn't really use it in weed enough to comment. Overall it worked quite well. The fluke area/weight is very high.

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We used a 35lb Boss on the Valiant down the Queensland coast, mostly sand anchorages but it held well in some nasty swell and wind on a couple of roadsteads, including wind direction changes through the night.

The anchor was undersized for a 40’ boat, but surprisingly effective in sand.

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@Panope
So, finally had my first unhooking event.

Set to the prevailing, backed on it, pick buried deep enough that only a bit of the roll bar showed. Should have been good. Alas...

The next evening, a frontal squall hit, with almost exactly a 180 reversal in wind direction. In the initial gusts, 30s, boat sat and seemed to be fine. The new direction brought some chop but I was behind shoal and figured it wouldn’t be bad. About 10-15 minutes in, the bows slewed; gadamnit, she is broke loose! Madame busted off the engines, I went forward to handle the anchor. Of course the wx is continuing to build.

Picked up the Manson, it is plug jammed with grass and mud. Now we didn’t really have the room to skip along and see if it would clear and reset, but still...

So we moved into a nearby area with more protection from the new fetch. Set again with more scope (was at 8:1, now at probably 9:1) now it is blowing solid 30s but the pick did set positively and hold. I stayed up all night on anchor watch as the front line kept regenerating.

Next morning, this wx shit is still going on. As the rain shield began to pass, the wind increased with 40 gusts and reversed again. Holy fuckfarts, now we have some chop, and the pick let go AGAIN, this time immediately. Now bear in mind this is after spending the night holding us up to 30 kt...

This time we had some room so we waited to see a bit. Boat dragged about 570 ft and the pick reset on its own, albeit somewhat controlled as we did have engines engaged

After probably well more than 1K nights at anchor over the past almost nine years of owning this boat, I have experienced my first honest anchor-dragging event, and now have lost faith in my Manson Supreme. And the effin’ Keys bottom.is.treacherous. set two picks, sez I...

Steve, do I recall correctly the Excel is your best performer thus far?

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Doesn't the Epsilon look remarkably like an Anchorlift TPX?

http://anchorlifttechnic.com/images/anchors/full_size/TPX18RB-web.jpg

Some detail small differences, but Lewmar may have licensed it.

I know nothing about Anchorlift other than that they appear to be Norwegian.

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8 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

...Picked up the Manson, it is plug jammed with grass and mud. Now we didn’t really have the room to skip along and see if it would clear and reset, but still...

... and the pick let go AGAIN, this time immediately. Now bear in mind this is after spending the night holding us up to 30 kt...

Steve, do I recall correctly the Excel is your best performer thus far?

Was it clogged with grass and mud the second time as well?

It is also possible that you had a bottom where any hook will get just under the grass roots and hold, but be prevented by the grass root from going deeper because the shank can be pulled through the roots. It will hold until either the wind shifts or grows past a certain point, then pop and not reset if clogged. We have that around here some places. I hate testing there, because the results are too variable.

Yeah, that is a weakness of roll bar anchors. Any anchor would have popped, but another anchor might have reset. But it also a difficult bottom. Setting two anchor in a V would likely have prevented both occurrences.

49a. boat mone with V nomenclature.pub.jpg

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Grass/mud bottoms suck. I anchored in one spot in Belize with maybe 6' of water, about 15:1 scope and after many attempts got a set. But it was very,very tentative. That was a Delta 35.  No roll bar. I don't think you should blame an anchor for not resetting in a bad sort of bottom. 

And this too - I totally agree. Unless your anchor is 100's or 1000's of pounds you can't get it set into firmer bottom below the roots. 

2 hours ago, thinwater said:

It is also possible that you had a bottom where any hook will get just under the grass roots and hold, but be prevented by the grass root from going deeper because the shank can be pulled through the roots. It will hold until either the wind shifts or grows past a certain point, then pop and not reset if clogged.

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@Zonker

the Keys bottom is really more of a marl: it is thin sand over a rock layer. It is patchy, so one generally looks for a sand patch and tries to hit it. This particular situation is not thick grass, in which I will not set, that never holds at all here.

upon reflection, I suspect that what might have happened is that the initial set may have plowed an effectively empty furrow in the anchor’s lee (remember this is thin stuff) and when reversed, there was simply nothing behind the pick, and away it went, still loaded with some of what had previously held it in.

Some folks say,’find a pothole and set the hook in it,’ but I can’t believe that in a reversal, that is going to work.

 Neither will a 2-anchor V, as when reversed you’ll then have two anchors dragging and a serious problem.

It may be that a 180-opposed Bahamian moor may be the only solution to the thin-over-hard-bottom wind-reversal situation 

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13 hours ago, thinwater said:

Was it clogged with grass and mud the second time as well?

It is also possible that you had a bottom where any hook will get just under the grass roots and hold, but be prevented by the grass root from going deeper because the shank can be pulled through the roots. It will hold until either the wind shifts or grows past a certain point, then pop and not reset if clogged. We have that around here some places. I hate testing there, because the results are too variable.

Yeah, that is a weakness of roll bar anchors. Any anchor would have popped, but another anchor might have reset. But it also a difficult bottom. Setting two anchor in a V would likely have prevented both occurrences.

49a. boat mone with V nomenclature.pub.jpg

That would have turned into my mum's knitting when the wind did a 180

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Max, thanks for sharing the experience.  Can you give me the exact latitude/longitude for this event.  I am creating a list of known "problem" anchorages that I hope to visit.

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On 3/28/2021 at 12:34 PM, Panope said:

Yes, I have a Stainless Steel, 45 pound (42 pounds on my scale) Epsilon.

 

Steve - Interesting that your scale (presumably calibrated/tested) would show a lower weight for the anchor than its listed spec. 

Now that I think of it, I had (only a quick, as of yet) peruse of your stellar work —i.e., the summary testing vid you put out some months ago/last year— where I seem to recall you noted some weight discrepancies in the models you tested.  Is this common?

Ok, 3 lbs out of 45 in this case is “only” 6-7% of weight, but seems crazy it wouldn’t actually be 45 lbs - considering that people buy anchors partially based on weight.  (And when you buy a dozen eggs, you get 12, not 11; and a bicycle comes with two wheels, not one, etc :-) :-)  )

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Hey Steve, just lobbing another idea out there: have you considered a stern tie testing arrangement? Might not be anything special in terms of anchor performance but could give an idea of how compromised you are in a stern tied scenario.

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The Epsilon is advertised as 44lbs, not 45.  My bad.

Many anchors hit their claimed weight accurately.  Some a little more, some less.  

The "early version" Mantus M1 that I tested 6 years ago weighed about 40lbs (claimed 45).  The current version that I have weighs 43lbs (claimed 45)

The current Viking "20" (claimed 21.4kg or 47lb)  weighs 51lbs.

 Steve

 

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15 minutes ago, climenuts said:

Hey Steve, just lobbing another idea out there: have you considered a stern tie testing arrangement? Might not be anything special in terms of anchor performance but could give an idea of how compromised you are in a stern tied scenario.

I'll put that on the list of possible future projects.  Around here, most of the "real life" Stern tie scenarios occur North of the Border which, by my guess, will not be open this season. 

I suppose I could "fake it", but then It will not have the "compromise" of having boats nestled on either side.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Steve

 

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3 hours ago, climenuts said:

Hey Steve, just lobbing another idea out there: have you considered a stern tie testing arrangement? Might not be anything special in terms of anchor performance but could give an idea of how compromised you are in a stern tied scenario.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point.

Anchored in the open, the most important characteristics may have to do with veer and reset. In a stern tie situation, the most important characteristic is high hold in a straight pull without creeping. Much simpler question, but that requires a different test rig. You can't use the engine.

Instead, anchor the test boat (or work from shore) and slowly winch the anchor toward you. You want to measure drag-in distance AND sustained hold after the winching stops. How much tension can it maintain, without moving an inch, for at least 20 minutes? Fortress, for example, is good at this.

The only tester I know (other than me) who used this method a lot is Knox. Also anchor manufacturers for oil platforms; performance after long soaking times is important to them.

I don't know about bottom types. It is probably more consistently medium mud, with fewer weeds and fewer cobble or rock situations.

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I should have mentioned that a non-stretch rode is vital for static hold testing, and not chain (because chain catenary is like stretch). Either steel cable or Dyneema. Otherwise, how do you measure drag-in and creep?

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Thinwater,  I am in the process of setting up a test rig for very high holding tests.  Dyneema will be used for the rodes for low stretch.  As you say, this will allow us to measure (somewhat) accurately, the amount of anchor movement.

Also,  a camera, trained on the anchor while filming simultaneously with a camera trained on the load readout display will be useful to answer the "is the anchor moving" question.

I will employ both methods during the testing.

I am eager to compare an anchor's "zero movement" maximum holding power to it's "in motion" holding.  

Winch "feed rate" will need to be measured and kept as constant as possible to keep the test "fair".

This new protocol represents an end to my previous efforts to increase engine thrust to ever higher values.  I will not miss the  noisy high power flogging of the engines, the high fuel consumption, and high wear and tear.

Steve

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I should add that I will likely use at least some chain on the test anchor rode for the simple reason that a significant number of people will vehemently discount any "rope only" test.  No amount of explaining that the chain is irrelevant (to that test) will change this perception.  

Again, the camera will tell us when the anchor has started/stopped moving.

Steve

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@Panope

I didn’t have time to see all the new nor remind myself of the previous, but in regards the cobbles: if the cobble size is the same in all your tests, then the cobble size effectively is larger in comparison to the smaller anchors; that is to say, the proportion of cobble size to anchor size, no?

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On 4/14/2021 at 4:13 PM, Panope said:

I should add that I will likely use at least some chain on the test anchor rode for the simple reason that a significant number of people will vehemently discount any "rope only" test.  No amount of explaining that the chain is irrelevant (to that test) will change this perception.  

Again, the camera will tell us when the anchor has started/stopped moving.

Steve

In fact, chain and shackle bulk influence how an anchor buries.

At short scope chain does change the process; initial setting is at long effective scope, which get the anchor buried, and the effective scope only becomes less when they load really comes on, by which time the anchor is buried. It's basically like setting at long scope and then shortening up, which is sometimes done with rope. It also changes the process of yawing a bit. Some people act like it's magic, but the reasons are simple, the differences are real, and chain is a simple, idiot-resistant way to get better anchor performance.

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1 hour ago, thinwater said:

In fact, chain and shackle bulk influence how an anchor buries.

At short scope chain does change the process; initial setting is at long effective scope, which get the anchor buried, and the effective scope only becomes less when they load really comes on, by which time the anchor is buried. It's basically like setting at long scope and then shortening up, which is sometimes done with rope. It also changes the process of yawing a bit. Some people act like it's magic, but the reasons are simple, the differences are real, and chain is a simple, idiot-resistant way to get better anchor performance.

I agree with all that. 

I was wrong to say that chain was irrelevant.

More accurate to say that chain is not too important in a max holding comparison between anchors.

Steve

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Being an idiot or just needing a hasty set the chain helps tremendously. Agree with Steve that for max holding power the chain isn't going to make any difference provided the max holding power is enough to get everything bar tight.

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11 hours ago, Panope said:

I agree with all that. 

I was wrong to say that chain was irrelevant.

More accurate to say that chain is not too important in a max holding comparison between anchors.

Steve

I should clarify that in this statement I was talking about a testing with a short chain.

A long, heavy chain rode in deep water, can have a large (positive) effect on holding power compared to a short or no chain rode.

Steve

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12 hours ago, Panope said:

More accurate to say that chain is not too important in a max holding comparison between anchors.

REALLY good distinction... it underlines the difference between designing a component comparison test (fewer variables) and designing a system that works across as many situations as possible (more variables).

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