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Am thinkin the old saw about "too good to be true..." might be working...

What is story with trailer? You will need a trailer to move that Finn hull, am curious/nosey.

Seller must have a trailer, which seems an obvious need/want thing to me. Finns are demanding fun; Banshees are fun - and occasionally demanding...

And easier to get (back) aboard, after a knockdown, but then that too is relative.

Please keep us posted re your efforts, which I applaud and got me green, but not as green as with the new Banshees or SA tackers now out of business. 

 

 

 

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Vanguard was the boat building side of Harken.  After having all the skin burned off their fingers by 470 International being unwilling to enforce the class rules prior to the 1984 Olympics. A long st

That one's too good to not immortalize  here with a screen shot of the listing before it's gone! I would only add in the description that besides the YouTube videos, there is plenty of expert commenta

Well, for better of worse, I will be the new owner of that LadySlipper (whitehall type) craigslist find.  Thanks for whoever posted it (or no thanks if it falls apart and sinks!).....no, I think

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So here's another Fireball from the same seller as the last Fireball I was posting from in Wisconsin.  This once claims to be a 2018 homebuilt and the HIN does say 2018 but there are ways around that.  This one though....the trailer makes it worthwhile alone!  

"2018" Fireball with what looks like brand new trailer - $1,275

 

Screen Shot 2020-08-25 at 9.31.03 AM.png

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27 minutes ago, Grestone said:

Any of you i-14 folks want a 1947 vintage on the west coast, this looks pretty nice.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/boa/d/calabasas-vintage-mahogany-wooden-14/7180666066.html

 

Nice! That ones been for sale recently (like in the last 2-3 years). Picture 4 (forward end of the CB trunk) shows a potential problem with black streaks in the laminate (dry rot?) - if dry rot, very fixable. Worth a look for someone.

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2 hours ago, Grestone said:

Any of you i-14 folks want a 1947 vintage on the west coast, this looks pretty nice.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/boa/d/calabasas-vintage-mahogany-wooden-14/7180666066.html

00S0S_aRQRPqglu7t_0CI0t2_600x450.jpg

That's pretty....I have the sistership which is not in nearly as nice shape. #squadgoals   That's #377, I have #437

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12 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

Dang, I would have guessed that the little burg of Burgaw would ever see mention in Sailing Anarchy. Historic moment, here.

Probably the only sailboat for miles. Looks like a good trailer, and Beetle Cats usually go for a lot more. I bet somebody snaps this up, even if it's somebody from a lot further north.

FB- Doug

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On 8/25/2020 at 4:33 PM, WCB said:

So here's another Fireball from the same seller as the last Fireball I was posting from in Wisconsin.  This once claims to be a 2018 homebuilt and the HIN does say 2018 but there are ways around that.  This one though....the trailer makes it worthwhile alone!  

"2018" Fireball with what looks like brand new trailer - $1,275

 

Screen Shot 2020-08-25 at 9.31.03 AM.png

Might be a recent hull. Spars are prehistoric and it seems somewhat short of hardware. Still, for that price it's hard to go too wrong if it's been built right. Does it measure?

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5 minutes ago, GBRNoah said:

Might be a recent hull. Spars are prehistoric and it seems somewhat short of hardware. Still, for that price it's hard to go too wrong if it's been built right. Does it measure?

Looks like it's this boat.

 

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On 8/25/2020 at 1:04 PM, WCB said:

That's pretty....I have the sistership which is not in nearly as nice shape. #squadgoals   That's #377, I have #437

This one has been for sale for awhile. Looks to be done right and a very nice example of 14 history. It needs to go to a good home.

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It is NOT a Sailfish, they had no coaming or handles.  I think there was something called a Porpoise, that might be what it is.  If so, parts would probably be next to impossible to source.   Probably junk yard time.

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2 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Elvstrom sail, so you'll be riding with the King. 

Wooden blades are a bonus.  AND double bonus, if it has the top section with the white end caps, it is stiffer so some folks may decide they WANT it.  

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9 hours ago, Ned said:

Elvstrom sail, so you'll be riding with the King. 

Wooden blades are a bonus.  AND double bonus, if it has the top section with the white end caps, it is stiffer so some folks may decide they WANT it.  

There's a blast from the past. Haven't seen an Elvström sail in a long time.

FB- Doug

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Interesting hull. Can you expain three openings in deck...? Mast steppings?   

New to me. Never saw in past. But, never played with "the King's" (an Elvstrom) boat either. The angled butt-rails look hard but boat seems viable - and fun, you have access to spars etc.

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18 hours ago, WCB said:

1986 McLaughlin Snipe in Delaware for $2.25 plus $300 in fees.  

$302 Snipe and counting

Screen_Shot_2020-08-31_at_10_09.37_PM.png

That snipe is mine and she is ready to sail today.  My knees are blown out and I can not launch or recover without pain.  There was no local interest so " boat angel " it was rather than let her go to $hit.  If any one has Q's I am happy to answer.

Eric

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9 hours ago, jonnycat said:

Reminds me of the past comic strip, "Oughta be a Law..."

The worst...sucky-snarky.

Aptly named.

Pollution waiting to happen.

Take to DC.

Founder the growing swamp!

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55 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Reminds me of the past comic strip, "Oughta be a Law..."

A few days ago I brought that strip up in a conversation I was having with someone, the first time in decades that I had even thought of it.  Now you are mentioning it here.

Baader-Meinhof or cosmic coincidence? 

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18 minutes ago, jonnycat said:

A few days ago I brought that strip up in a conversation I was having with someone, the first time in decades that I had even thought of it.  Now you are mentioning it here.

Baader-Meinhof or cosmic coincidence? 

Artists know...we seem never to learn...we are prey to pols; a mob which seeks its low level like water (pee)...and act the part. Always "zero summing."

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Interesting...did not know what extra foredeck holes were and now suprised no drains...Elvtroms in hull, of course...

Still nica hull...needs  trailer, spars and sail???? That would be fun and spendy am thinking.

So now I (just) noticed a fourth deck opening...? (on far right)

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31 minutes ago, BobBill said:

I thought of that but appears only one is on the starboard deck. If removed, might be a tough replacement? Still, Nica bateau!

There's one on each side. The port side the compass is actually in.  

He also plans to install bailer tubes as well.

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40 minutes ago, WCB said:

There's one on each side. The port side the compass is actually in.  

He also plans to install bailer tubes as well.

I am easily confused. One pic shows three deck openings SHC indicates are mast and (basically) access ports. This pic indicates two compass ports, which I suspected but only one mast port, no forward access ports...

Same hull?

No real need to respond, but it seems so odd, or am I goofy sans my dose of Sumatran cafe?

Love to be on the wet-go...too.

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43 minutes ago, BobBill said:

I am easily confused. One pic shows three deck openings SHC indicates are mast and (basically) access ports. This pic indicates two compass ports, which I suspected but only one mast port, no forward access ports...

Same hull?

No real need to respond, but it seems so odd, or am I goofy sans my dose of Sumatran cafe?

Love to be on the wet-go...too.

Yes, same hull.  There are five holes entirely.  The mast partners.  Two inspection ports aft and on either side of the mast partners, and two compass holes, much further outboard, close the gunwale.  

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34 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

@Carbon it looks like you'd need to do that conversion that Suntouched sells to get the Devoti deck plate installed.

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1 hour ago, Alan Crawford said:

No I had not, and much thanks...my kinda stuff. 

Am beyond Finn-age, but suck the rig up and more. 

I just failed to see all the ports...I need to be more circumspect.  

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

@Carbon it looks like you'd need to do that conversion that Suntouched sells to get the Devoti deck plate installed.

Alan,

I had not.  Thank you!  I had planned to get the Devoti kit to upgrade the boat.  I was looking at the class rules just this morning to figure out how exact the placement needs to be.

Thanks for the link!

Tom

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6 hours ago, BobBill said:

No I had not, and much thanks...my kinda stuff. 

Am beyond Finn-age, but suck the rig up and more. 

I just failed to see all the ports...I need to be more circumspect.  

Very good...thanks...I am so dim!

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15 hours ago, Carbon said:

I attached two of the same pic before.  Here's the aft view.

IMG_2330 copy.jpg

Abbott or pre 1984 Vanguard?  The double bottom forward of the cockpit is the difference.  

If you don’t have a Ritchie compass to put in the hole, make sure you tape it up before you go sailing.  Vanguards of this vintage rely on the forward cockpit wall to keep most of the water out of the bow. It is above the water when the boat capsizes, and is almost ok if the boat turtles. But if the compass holes are open, the bow fills and it is almost impossible to sail the water out.

Vanguards never had stern tubes.

SHC

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15 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Abbott or pre 1984 Vanguard?  The double bottom forward of the cockpit is the difference.  

If you don’t have a Ritchie compass to put in the hole, make sure you tape it up before you go sailing.  Vanguards of this vintage rely on the forward cockpit wall to keep most of the water out of the bow. It is above the water when the boat capsizes, and is almost ok if the boat turtles. But if the compass holes are open, the bow fills and it is almost impossible to sail the water out.

Vanguards never had stern tubes.

SHC

Steve,

Is it worth putting the stern tubes in?  Seems like an easy enough job.

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7 hours ago, jonnycat said:

Nice...

Someone once remarked to me that Douglass was shroud dude...

Manufacturing International 14s for three...I can remember thinkin' then "three people and all those strings might be madness, but that was then. Boat dredged that old thought up. Looks so fast.

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6 hours ago, WCB said:

Steve,

Is it worth putting the stern tubes in?  Seems like an easy enough job.

I would...but the compasses...there is the rub...locating one and then buying it...me thinks I would just plug the holes with tennis balls...just for fun.

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10 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Abbott or pre 1984 Vanguard?  The double bottom forward of the cockpit is the difference.  

If you don’t have a Ritchie compass to put in the hole, make sure you tape it up before you go sailing.  Vanguards of this vintage rely on the forward cockpit wall to keep most of the water out of the bow. It is above the water when the boat capsizes, and is almost ok if the boat turtles. But if the compass holes are open, the bow fills and it is almost impossible to sail the water out.

Vanguards never had stern tubes.

SHC

Steve,

It's a 1975 Vanguard.  I'm planning to replace the compasses with inspection ports.  Looks like the starboard compass is a bit beyond saving, anyway.  I'll remove all hardware at the stem and fill those holes as well.  The plan is to make her as modern as possible and that may include fashioning more of a double floor in the cockpit and installing a drain tube aft for when I dump the boat. 

Tom

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9 hours ago, BobBill said:

I would...but the compasses...there is the rub...locating one and then buying it...me thinks I would just plug the holes with tennis balls...just for fun.

Tom, I like the way you think...

Exactly what I would do...put in a couple of 4" or whatever ports...beats the grief. If one good compas is on board, put it on/in a piece of teak, aline it and screw the wood to that deck floor center port cover...voila. I bit of labor and mind work but...

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When we built Finns, no one thought they ere necessary, two big suckers was plenty.  

The big deal was keeping bilge a water out of the bow.  i would consider closing up the front of the cockpit and making a set of transom flaps out of mono film so that water can flood aft but not forward.  I made these for our Europe dinghies and the worked perfectly.

SHC

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

When we built Finns, no one thought they ere necessary, two big suckers was plenty.  

The big deal was keeping bilge a water out of the bow.  i would consider closing up the front of the cockpit and making a set of transom flaps out of mono film so that water can flood aft but not forward.  I made these for our Europe dinghies and the worked perfectly.

SHC

@Carbon I hope you're taking notes.

Steve, is there another generation of Vanguard Finns?  You said pre-1984 so is there a post 1984 and what are the differences?

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9E500229-53B2-4FF8-8DFC-2BEC3DBA4BD9.jpeg.27a3aff3cf70cf31032ba1d6bdc01fe2.jpegThe Vanguard Finn hull shape was developed by Peter Harken in the 1970s and was so fast we never changed it. The interior and decks got several reworks over time, the most significant was before Vanguard built the fleet for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. This is a picture of one of the LA Finns.

A The deck mold was modified to incorporate the double bottom instead of plywood floor boards or a fiberglass secondary piece. There was also a clever double bottom designed forward of the cockpit which kept water from running forward. It was nicknamed StarWars because the mold looked like an Imperial Star Destroyer.

In 1986 Andy Pimental built himself a boat using a laminate schedule and deck rib pattern that was different than the Peewaukee boats. It was so fucking fast we adopted that as our new specification.  At that time, there was a lot of voodoo about how stiff the mast structure was and how elastic the boat was going upwind.  Andy got this just right.   We used to import Needlespars, which had a fairly variable specification, and we bent tested each one.  Sailors would come looking for the magic mast that was just right and spend hours trying to hypnotize pieces of aluminum.  

All this has probably changed in the new world of carbon masts and Devoti Finns. I haven’t kept track.

SHC

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4 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

9E500229-53B2-4FF8-8DFC-2BEC3DBA4BD9.jpeg.27a3aff3cf70cf31032ba1d6bdc01fe2.jpegThe Vanguard Finn hull shape was developed by Peter Harken in the 1970s and was so fast we never changed it. The interior and decks got several reworks over time, the most significant was before Vanguard built the fleet for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. This is a picture of one of the LA Finns.

A The deck mold was modified to incorporate the double bottom instead of plywood floor boards or a fiberglass secondary piece. There was also a clever double bottom designed forward of the cockpit which kept water from running forward. It was nicknamed StarWars because the mold looked like an Imperial Star Destroyer.

In 1986 Andy Pimental built himself a boat using a laminate schedule and deck rib pattern that was different than the Peewaukee boats. It was so fucking fast we adopted that as our new specification.  At that time, there was a lot of voodoo about how stiff the mast structure was and how elastic the boat was going upwind.  Andy got this just right.   We used to import Needlespars, which had a fairly variable specification, and we bent tested each one.  Sailors would come looking for the magic mast that was just right and spend hours trying to hypnotize pieces of aluminum.  

All this has probably changed in the new world of carbon masts and Devoti Finns. I haven’t kept track.

SHC

Steve,

Thanks so much for this great piece of history, that was fun.  I think the Finn sailors are still nerding out over masts.  I haven't gotten my head around it yet but I was reading about hanging the 12kg weight off the tip of the mast and measuring deflection at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and tip, along with both fore/aft and sideways.  Yikes.  

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22 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Sailors would come looking for the magic mast that was just right and spend hours trying to hypnotize pieces of aluminum.  

 

An absolutely precious comment.  

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On 9/4/2020 at 10:22 PM, WCB said:

Steve,

Thanks so much for this great piece of history, that was fun.  I think the Finn sailors are still nerding out over masts.  I haven't gotten my head around it yet but I was reading about hanging the 12kg weight off the tip of the mast and measuring deflection at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and tip, along with both fore/aft and sideways.  Yikes.  

"Yikes!" is sooooooo right.

Amazing too, that we swab dodgers can be so dim! But, we keep buying bullroar stuff, don't we?

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Looks like a nice boat, mainsheet cleat is unusual, but individual taste is what it is.

There is plenty of original equipment, like the hiking straps!  And all the cleats and blocks, so I’m thinking it has spent more time sitting than sailing.  Deck collar has been upgraded and looks like whoever did it at least did a nice gel coat repair. Not easy with grey gel coat....

BobBill: our tests were done with ( I don’t remember how many) kg hanging from the mid length.  3/4-1/2-1/4 deflection fore  and aft as well as side to side  were taken.  Interestingly, individual measures were consistent within their own dataset, but there were differences between each measures data sets. Even when using the same set up and equipment.  We imported all the Needlespars into North America, and as Chip was racing Finns at the time, he measured every Finn mast we sold for 10 years.

SHC

 

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12 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Looks like a nice boat, mainsheet cleat is unusual, but individual taste is what it is.

There is plenty of original equipment, like the hiking straps!  And all the cleats and blocks, so I’m thinking it has spent more time sitting than sailing.  Deck collar has been upgraded and looks like whoever did it at least did a nice gel coat repair. Not easy with grey gel coat....

BobBill: our tests were done with ( I don’t remember how many) kg hanging from the mid length.  3/4-1/2-1/4 deflection fore  and aft as well as side to side  were taken.  Interestingly, individual measures were consistent within their own dataset, but there were differences between each measures data sets. Even when using the same set up and equipment.  We imported all the Needlespars into North America, and as Chip was racing Finns at the time, he measured every Finn mast we sold for 10 years.

SHC

 

I was wondering about the mainsheet cleat setup.  Doesn't look like the standard Harken swivel base.  I'll get better pictures next weekend.  Lots of upgrading to be done.  Thanks on the deck collar.  I'll have to look into that one.

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On further review, I retract the deck collar comment. The deck collar adjustment was made after we stopped building Finns, so the deck mold was never modified.  Standard Finn mainsheet cleats are one on each side tank and that weird upside down one on thwart. That was so you could pump 2:1. At the time you weren’t allowed to pump 1:1. So you would use that cleat to block half the mainsheet purchase like so: round mark and let the main way the hell out, put the next to last fall in the cleat and pump away.

I think this is unnecessary in the modern age of athletic sailing.  ISAF was still mired in “ the sport of gentlemen” mindset in the 90’s and throwing people out of races for pumping.  I guess they still do when it isn’t blowing hard enough.

SHC

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47 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

On further review, I retract the deck collar comment. The deck collar adjustment was made after we stopped building Finns, so the deck mold was never modified.  Standard Finn mainsheet cleats are one on each side tank and that weird upside down one on thwart. That was so you could pump 2:1. At the time you weren’t allowed to pump 1:1. So you would use that cleat to block half the mainsheet purchase like so: round mark and let the main way the hell out, put the next to last fall in the cleat and pump away.

I think this is unnecessary in the modern age of athletic sailing.  ISAF was still mired in “ the sport of gentlemen” mindset in the 90’s and throwing people out of races for pumping.  I guess they still do when it isn’t blowing hard enough.

SHC

 

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Screen Shot 2020-09-01 at 3.15.55 PM.png

Screen_Shot_2020-09-01_at_3_14.33_PM.png

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I think, Finn and Meter contests are still gentlemanly...my personal O.

Mr. Clark, me also thinks a Finn has too many strings, and the mast-fussing unnecessarily complicated...to me, and have been known to be wrong, a stiff hull with even old wood spar that is well-managed will "do it" or win, adjustable or not! 

That be a "strut" we see? Though Finns allowed chines...maybe that is OK Dinghies?...I get confused like sting pulling.

Simple isn't best in the beginning??? 

Still, WCB, aside from the cleats, (string-checks) that have always intimidated this old swab "Nica bateau!"

Please post eventual outcome! Interested in the what and whys.

 

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