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When I was stationed in Rota, Spain, the local home inspectors would check the gas line for leaks by running a lit bic lighter along the hose & pipes.  It was Butane, not Propane, but still :wacko:

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After a long weekend... The wax will probably hold for 30 days before it fails and everything turns to chalk again.

Well here's a new and interesting problem: As many of you know, I experienced a driveline vibration during my trip to Maine. I hauled out this week to replace the cutless bearing. The strut

OK,  despite the cryptic message nothing was wrong.  The guy just had a question before he put everything back together.  Now we're waiting for a high tide.  The wind is blowing the water out of

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

When I was stationed in Rota, Spain, the local home inspectors would check the gas line for leaks by running a lit bic lighter along the hose & pipes.  It was Butane, not Propane, but still :wacko:

There are old inspectors and there are bold inspectors but...

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So Ajax, some great friends are following in your footsteps. They called Tim Jackett to see what was available in used Tartans, he pointed them to a 4400  in the Bahamas that was blown off stands in a hurricane, suffering hull damage and breaking the mast in a couple of places.

They ended up buying it, getting it to Florida, and up to Ohio (where they live), and Jackett is now supervising the rebuild. 

This is a cool couple, they actually spent a weekend racing on Restive with Larry in Newport a few years ago. 

BBY restored a Hinckley 52 last year with a similar story. 

The market is now such that even wrecked boats are worth restoring.

 

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

So Ajax, some great friends are following in your footsteps. They called Tim Jackett to see what was available in used Tartans, he pointed them to a 4400  in the Bahamas that was blown off stands in a hurricane, suffering hull damage and breaking the mast in a couple of places.

They ended up buying it, getting it to Florida, and up to Ohio (where they live), and Jackett is now supervising the rebuild. 

This is a cool couple, they actually spent a weekend racing on Restive with Larry in Newport a few years ago. 

BBY restored a Hinckley 52 last year with a similar story. 

The market is now such that even wrecked boats are worth restoring.

 

And we thought that nothing would ever speak up the glut of used boats on the market. Amazing. 

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20 hours ago, Crash said:

When I was stationed in Rota, Spain, the local home inspectors would check the gas line for leaks by running a lit bic lighter along the hose & pipes.  It was Butane, not Propane, but still :wacko:

I worked at a large textile printing company in the ‘70s. We had two 40,000 gallon propane tanks that would last a couple of weeks. All of  our equipment had propane-fed heat treating and drying chambers. 

One of the mechanics was checking for leaks at a fitting with a lighter. Something like a 20 foot plume of flame shot out in front of his nose. It caused no little excitement, and a permanent mandated end to that practice!

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For Christ's sake, anywhere from $40 to $100 bucks and you'll have a safe tool for life, rather than risking your life with a 10 cent Bic lighter. WTF is wrong with people?

 

https://www.industrialsafetyproducts.com/bw-technologies-bwc2-h-clip-single-gas-h2s-monitor/?gclid=CjwKCAjwtJ2FBhAuEiwAIKu19ibXB_w5Xb3u6dUyJ70QfCnLIfwgiEepvRN_b9MeJKBtOghUcRbbGRoCSmcQAvD_BwE

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9 hours ago, Ajax said:

For Christ's sake, anywhere from $40 to $100 bucks and you'll have a safe tool for life, rather than risking your life with a 10 cent Bic lighter. WTF is wrong with people?

 

https://www.industrialsafetyproducts.com/bw-technologies-bwc2-h-clip-single-gas-h2s-monitor/?gclid=CjwKCAjwtJ2FBhAuEiwAIKu19ibXB_w5Xb3u6dUyJ70QfCnLIfwgiEepvRN_b9MeJKBtOghUcRbbGRoCSmcQAvD_BwE

Have you visited PA recently?

50% of people are of below average intelligence.

Funny thing, back when I did my 2 day firefighting at sea course, one of the scenarios was putting out a gas fire from a leaking/ruptured pipe. Oil fires under bilge plates were a bit of a nightmare to extinguish too.

Main lessons from that - keep a fire from starting by good housekeeping and if one does start, hope it's on a ship you're not.

FKT

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Have you visited PA recently?

50% of people are of below average intelligence.

It's not just there - it's everywhere.

PA is the only part of this place that's normal in that regard. ;)

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  • 3 months later...

Well here's a new and interesting problem:

As many of you know, I experienced a driveline vibration during my trip to Maine. I hauled out this week to replace the cutless bearing.

The strut has wasted slightly, so that it no longer holds the bearing securely. You're supposed to have to use a press to push the bearing out. Mine can be pushed out and the new bearing inserted with 2 fingers. It's not "sloppy," it's a smooth fit, it just doesn't have enough grip.

I have an email in to Tartan support inquiring about the manufacturer/part number/dimensions of the strut to see how I go about ordering a replacement.

In the meantime, the yard boss claims to have seen this before and has knurled the surface of the bearing to give greater contact. He claims that he's done it 5 times and it's worked every time in cases like mine. It'll take a friggin' week for the machine shop to get around to knurling my cutless bearing.

I'm betting that due to materials and labor shortages that I'm looking at a long lead time in ordering a new strut. If the yard boss doesn't think that knurling the surface is providing enough grip, I'm going to epoxy that bitch in place and send it.

Bearings are cheap and it doesn't matter if it's stuck in there if I'm replacing the strut. My plan is to replace the strut next August when its hot and windless so the epoxy job only needs to lasts 10 months.

----------------------------------------

On a separate but related note, you guys will get a laugh out of this-

When the diver replaced my propeller in New Bedford, we needed a castle nut. We couldn't find one anywhere in town of the proper size in stainless steel so we used a pair of "jam nuts."  I authorized this, it's not the diver's fault.

Well, the jam nuts vibrated off and when we hauled out, there was NOTHING holding the propeller on except the press fit of the taper on the shaft. Probably 2 or 3 more reversing episodes and I would have launched the propeller into the water.  I knew the jam nuts were not a permanent solution, which is one reason why I hauled out.

God looks after infants, fools and ships named Alacrity.

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I think if I were unable to source a castellated nut, I would drill a hole for a pin through a standard nut. Not too hard if the nut is bronze; a bit more difficult in stainless. Washers and shims would be required to make the hole line up with the one in the shaft...probably extra time and expense if hiring a diver to do this. I understand why you went with jam nuts and I am glad you got away with it!

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I think you may find that the knurling works well enough that it's a bitch to get it out next time. The same is probably true of lock nuts with the addition of some red Loctite. 

In any case, you can rest easy that your driveline is adjusted well enough that there's no vibration even with a sloppy Cutl(ae)ss.

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

In the meantime, the yard boss claims to have seen this before and has knurled the surface of the bearing to give greater contact. He claims that he's done it 5 times and it's worked every time in cases like mine. It'll take a friggin' week for the machine shop to get around to knurling my cutless bearing.

This method I can confirm works well, I've used it on a handful of different applications. An option I've used when I couldn't get to my lathe was a center punch and some patience. Auto punch makes this much easier, but your essentially doing the same thing as knurling it, without having to pay machinist wages or waiting a week

Edited by Fenrir1001
Loctite 603 would also be a good idea
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8 minutes ago, Fenrir1001 said:

This method I can confirm works well, I've used it on a handful of different applications. An option I've used when I couldn't get to my lathe was a center punch and some patience. Auto punch makes this much easier, but your essentially doing the same thing as knurling it, without having to pay machinist wages or waiting a week

Thanks for chiming in with some real world experience. You've boosted my confidence in the process.

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29 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

good luck is one of the most precious things 

As the saying goes, it's better to be lucky than good.

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Ajax, if there is no slop and it's temporary, how about some small dimples in the bearing for the set screws to engage and thread locker on the set screws?

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14 hours ago, Snore said:

Post this over in the Tartan email group.  Last I heard there are few boats up in Maine, and they may be able to help

 

Pretty sure Ajax is back in the Chesapeake now...

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15 hours ago, Snore said:

Post this over in the Tartan email group.  Last I heard there are few boats up in Maine, and they may be able to help

 

Can you shoot me a link to the email group? I can't seem to find it. Yahoo groups is gone.

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Loctite sleeve retainer #640 may also work since you're hauled out.  I've never used it on a cutless bearing specifically but it is widely used in engine and transmission rebuilding for parts that are supposed to be press fit but no longer are due to wear.  When it is time to remove a bearing installed with it, you would heat the strut with a torch.

The advantage over knurling is that you don't have to wait around for the machine shop.  They usually stock sleeve retainer at auto parts stores or farm implement places.

 

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1 hour ago, 2airishuman said:

Loctite sleeve retainer #640 may also work since you're hauled out.  I've never used it on a cutless bearing specifically but it is widely used in engine and transmission rebuilding for parts that are supposed to be press fit but no longer are due to wear.  When it is time to remove a bearing installed with it, you would heat the strut with a torch.

The advantage over knurling is that you don't have to wait around for the machine shop.  They usually stock sleeve retainer at auto parts stores or farm implement places.

 

Dang, they've already sent it off to the shop in Baltimorgue. Thanks for the heads-up though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the cutless bearing issue has turned into a needless goat-rope.

First, the yard claims that "knurling" the surface of the bearing did not provide enough surface contact to hold securely in the strut. They now recommend ordering an oversized bearing and machining it down to fit.

In my opinion, the knurling had a 50/50 chance of working. Machining down an oversized bearing has a 100% chance of success. Why the fuck didn't they recommend this in the first place?  I'm angry at myself for not recognizing an oversized bearing as a possible solution.

So, the shop ordered the next size up (still with a 1" ID) and gave it to the machine shop next door. The shop machined it down and gave it to the yard to test-fit it in the strut. The results were positive. The machine shop asked them to return the bearing so that they could bevel the leading edge so that it wouldn't dig into the bore during insertion into the strut.

The machinist lost control of his lathe or whatever in an accident and destroyed the cutless bearing completely somehow.  The yard has ordered ANOTHER cutless bearing which should arrive today. The machine shop will (again) reduce the size of the bearing and give it back to the yard for installation.

Assuming no further fuck-ups ensue, I should launch by tomorrow.  But seriously, nearly 3 weeks to replace a cutless bearing? The yard isn't even busy. They have no backlog.

This is why I never, ever, ever let yards work on my boat.

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While I'm sure it's frustrating, I'd guess the yard guy made a judgement call, trying to save you some boat bucks...so you can't really blame him too much for that.  Same for the machine shop.  Guy made a mistake. and it ruined the bearing.  It happens, we all make them, and at least they owned up to it/didn't try to "fix" it or pass it off as not their problem...

Its a sailboat.  Sometimes, esp one older ones, getting stuff fixed right can take some time...I realize this is prime sailing time on the Cheseapke, and now you'll probably get an early and cold winter as a result...but it could be worse:rolleyes:

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On 9/16/2021 at 8:43 AM, Ajax said:

Bearings are cheap and it doesn't matter if it's stuck in there if I'm replacing the strut. My plan is to replace the strut next August when its hot and windless so the epoxy job only needs to lasts 10 months.

Is your strut really short on the bottom?  Asking because I had a strut that had some rot toward the aft end of its upside down T.  The yard ground about a quarter of inch off the bronze and put in the next size shorter cutlass bearing.  The guy who ran the yard - a fellow with a marine engineering degree - said I'd have to replace the strut in another 25 or 30 years, but it would be fine until then.  Not sure if your strut has enough length, fore-aft on the bottom of the inverted T, but I'd look into it.  Struts ain't cheap. 

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Well this is fucking stunning.

After a face-to-face discussion on Monday, where the yard boss assured me that all that remained was to machine down a new bearing and insert it, now I received a message that he "wants to have a discussion" with me.

At this point I feel that the yard is just milking me for money. If this guy throws one more hurdle at me, he's fired.

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26 minutes ago, Ajax said:

At this point I feel that the yard is just milking me for money. If this guy throws one more hurdle at me, he's fired.

Be careful.  He has your boat, and if the game turns into hardball, he holds the aces.

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27 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Well this is fucking stunning.

After a face-to-face discussion on Monday, where the yard boss assured me that all that remained was to machine down a new bearing and insert it, now I received a message that he "wants to have a discussion" with me.

At this point I feel that the yard is just milking me for money. If this guy throws one more hurdle at me, he's fired.

The suspense is no fun, but wait to see what he has to say first. Most yards try to do right by their customers.... You think he reads SA? 

Or they are luring you in by making you think that....:D 

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Well this is fucking stunning.

After a face-to-face discussion on Monday, where the yard boss assured me that all that remained was to machine down a new bearing and insert it, now I received a message that he "wants to have a discussion" with me.

At this point I feel that the yard is just milking me for money. If this guy throws one more hurdle at me, he's fired.

Ten bucks says they broke your strut. That's exactly what happened to me.

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OK,  despite the cryptic message nothing was wrong.  The guy just had a question before he put everything back together. 

Now we're waiting for a high tide.  The wind is blowing the water out of the bay. 

Yeah,  I thought they broke the strut too. I heaved a sigh of relief when I saw the bearing installed instead. 

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9 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Ten bucks says they broke your strut. That's exactly what happened to me.

Always with the negative waves Moriarty.

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The yard guy is very up on his ABYC standards and such, even on old boats. His concern was that the base of the propeller was not a full 1.5 X shaft diameter away from end of the strut.

I informed him that my new transmission and shaft coupling were shorter and that I also almost certainly was over aggressive in inserting the shaft into the coupling. I told him that he could assemble the boat and launch it and that I would back the shaft out of the coupler 3/4 of an inch when I got it home.

He also informed me that when inserting the new bearing into the bore, the interior of the bore seemed unevenly worn. The bearing would exhibit tightness, then looseness as it traveled into the bore before finally settling in at an acceptable fit.

We're pretty sure that a previous owner neglected the sacrificial anode for a period of time. The boat is almost 40 years old so anything could have happened. Based on this, I will definitely pursue purchasing a new strut from Tartan during the winter.  I probably won't rush to replace it but I do want the part on hand in case the current strut fails.

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10 hours ago, Ajax said:

I probably won't rush to replace it but I do want the part on hand in case the current strut fails.

I know you really mean "should the strut show any signs of impending failure..." because if the strut were to fail catastrophically while under power, the shaft would do its best imitation of trying to turn in big ellipses, which would likely try to tear the shaft log/tube clean out of the boat, letting lots of water into the boat in the process.

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So, one boat buck later and my driveline vibration has not changed.  Of course, I'm still glad to have a new cutless bearing so it wasn't a total waste.  After an extended period of motoring with my wife, I have an eye witness to the behavior and I don't mind telling you, it's strange:

The vibration fades and returns. I thought I was hallucinating but when my wife also picked up on it, I knew I had a new data point.  It's definitely not rudder vibration from prop wash. It's not the propeller or cutless bearing or the shaft. The entire engine compartment acts as an echo chamber so it's impossible to isolate by sound. I need to open up the engine area and remove the doghouse and then have someone drive the boat while under power so that I can place my hand on a few suspicious areas to feel for the vibration.

What I'm coming down to, is that it may indeed by an engine mount. I disturbed them when I adjusted them for the new transmission. I had to lower the engine 1/8-1/4 of an inch to achieve perfect alignment with the shaft. My engine uses a tripod engine mount setup. I think it might be the front mount but I'm not sure yet.

The vibration is high frequency. I think the mount may be slowly rotating. When it tightens up, the vibration fades out. When the mount rotates more, it loosens up, allowing the vibration. It's loud but I don't think it's harming anything. I think the echo chamber makes it seem much worse than it is. Below a certain RPM, the vibration is not present at any time.

I do think the vibration had a sudden onset, appearing shortly after I left Block Island after T/S Elsa. Something got loose. If I can find it, I can stop the vibration.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update on the vibration troubleshooting:

I pulled the doghouse off to perform a more detailed inspection of the motor mounts. I brought a prybar and a wood block to test them. I shined a flashlight in the darkest corner and found that the top nut of the most hidden mount had backed off completely! The nut had vibrated halfway up the stud!

"Eureka!" I said. I tightened it back down with blue Loktite this time. I pry-checked all 3 motor mounts and found them to be in good condition.

I took the boat out for a test drive and...  you won't believe this. Tightening the motor mount had absolutely zero effect on the vibration. It's still present and it still fades and returns in a very long oscillation that takes many minutes. It seems harmonic. It is always absent at 1/3 throttle and nearly absent at WOT.

I'm not out of tricks yet but the next steps require me to be in the lazarette under power so I'll need my spousal unit at the wheel to steer and manipulate the throttle while I'm down there.

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Oh- I was able to put the boat on autopilot and feel around the engine and mounts itself during a period of loud vibration. The engine feels quite smooth. I'm pretty sure the problem is further down the drive line.

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Have you had your prop balanced?  How far aft of the cutlass is it? Too much shaft and the prop can whip-around, too little and the prop tips get close to the hull and water pressure pulses cause vibration.  Prop shaft bent at all?  There are so many little things that can cause vibrations.  Do the vibrations only happen in-gear?  Was shaft aligned in the water or on the hard?  Can you change vibration with back-stay tension?

 

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57 minutes ago, debonAir said:

Have you had your prop balanced?  How far aft of the cutlass is it? Too much shaft and the prop can whip-around, too little and the prop tips get close to the hull and water pressure pulses cause vibration.  Prop shaft bent at all?  There are so many little things that can cause vibrations.  Do the vibrations only happen in-gear?  Was shaft aligned in the water or on the hard?  Can you change vibration with back-stay tension?

 

  • I've tried 2 folding props and one fixed prop. Behavior is exactly the same.
  • I should extend the shaft about an inch but its position has never changed and I've never had this problem until recently.
  • It's a 3-cylinder diesel. It always has some vibration at certain RPMs before it smooths out, in or out of gear.
  • I aligned the shaft on the hard. Alignment was perfect. I also have a Sigma Drive CV joint which allows for a total of 6 degrees of articulation.
  • I will perform a test with backstay tension and report back. I haven't tried that.
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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You must check shaft alignment in the water - boats change shape between the hard and floating.

^^This.  Though you'd think the CV drive joint would deal with any change from on the hard to floating...

2 other questions. 

1. This only happens when the engine is in gear right?  When in neutral at same rpm, no vibrations right?

2. Is there a difference in vibration while in gear but tied in slip, and in gear making speed thru the water?

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15 minutes ago, Crash said:

^^This.  Though you'd think the CV drive joint would deal with any change from on the hard to floating...

2 other questions. 

1. This only happens when the engine is in gear right?  When in neutral at same rpm, no vibrations right?

2. Is there a difference in vibration while in gear but tied in slip, and in gear making speed thru the water?

It does seem to be only when in gear.

I haven't yet tried this in the slip, taking a strain against the lines.

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just declare that: you want to go green, always intended to sail engineless, need a bathtub and the engine space is the only available space . . . .and pull the damn thing out and sell it.

that would pose a new exciting challenge for you to rise to, for your trip to maine next summer :)

 

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4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

just declare that: you want to go green, always intended to sail engineless, need a bathtub and the engine space is the only available space . . . .and pull the damn thing out and sell it.

that would pose a new exciting challenge for you to rise to, for your trip to maine next summer :)

 

When I retire,  I'll go all "Sailing Uma."

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Ajax,

does it happen consistently at certain RPM?  Worse at one range?  It could be a harmonic which is easy to fix.  Do a search in you area for vibration analysis. This would be a commercial/industrial company but it would be easy enough for them to do a run on your drive train and locate the problem.

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Is it possible the new cutlass bearing is off-center given the issues you had?

You've ruled out engine mounts, alignment and prop.  That leaves shaft, cutlass and strut.

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1 hour ago, jsaronson said:

Is it possible the new cutlass bearing is off-center given the issues you had?

You've ruled out engine mounts, alignment and prop.  That leaves shaft, cutlass and strut.

The problem is completely the same from one cutless bearing to another. It could be the shaft or strut except that the problem is intermittent. A failure of the shaft or strut would most likely be constant.

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I haven't read this entire thread, so you may have already considered this. I have a T-33. The previous owner had an engine/shaft/prop vibration problem. After eliminating everything possible, the yard figured out that the tolerance between the shaft and the exit hole was too close, or off in some way. I'm not sure how they enlarged it and reshaped it, but I've had the boat for five years and there is no vibration at any RPM, in any sea state. So, maybe go below and check your exit hole. He he, "exit hole". I just repainted my bottom and serviced everything below the waterline. Cleaning up the shaft around that hole and painting the area was still kind of tight. I have no idea what the yard did, how it originally looked, or why the adjustment worked. Sorry, that's probably not a lot of help, but that's what solved the vibration problem for my boat's PO. FWIW I have a 16" three-blade Max Prop Easy set to 18 degrees of pitch. That's good for about 6.5 knots in flat water at about 2300 RPM from the 5424 diesel. I can get about 2700RPM out of the engine at full throttle in flat water. Hope some of this is useful info.

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2 hours ago, kevinjones16 said:

 I can get about 2700RPM out of the engine at full throttle in flat water. Hope some of this is useful info.

If the shaft is hitting the stern tube that would definitely cause vibrations. Even with a straight shaft, the prop pushing can cause it to bow a tiny bit. All the more reason to align the motor while floating.  Maybe raise all the mounts a tiny bit and see what it sounds like?

Also, WOT for the 5424 should be 3200 RPM.  18 is a heck of a lot of pitch. Do yet get some black smoke at full throttle? Consider 10 or 11 perhaps and get the same (or more) speed without lugging the diesel. 

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16 hours ago, debonAir said:

If the shaft is hitting the stern tube that would definitely cause vibrations. Even with a straight shaft, the prop pushing can cause it to bow a tiny bit. All the more reason to align the motor while floating.  Maybe raise all the mounts a tiny bit and see what it sounds like?

Also, WOT for the 5424 should be 3200 RPM.  18 is a heck of a lot of pitch. Do yet get some black smoke at full throttle? Consider 10 or 11 perhaps and get the same (or more) speed without lugging the diesel. 

According to my manuals, WOT should be 2800 RPM. Interesting.

@kevinjones16 I appreciate any info I can get.  Unfortunately, I doubt this is my problem. The vibration is a new problem that only started this summer and it's intermittent. So far, everything that everyone has suggested would result in a constant vibration.

Something down in the engine space is moving/shifting/rotating between a tightness where the vibration stops and loosening again to allow the vibration. I'm at the point where I need to be in the engine space, under power with a hooman at the wheel. It could be something as simple as some loose hardware down there that isn't related to the driveline at all.

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2 minutes ago, Ajax said:

According to my manuals, WOT should be 2800 RPM. Interesting.

@kevinjones16 I appreciate any info I can get.  Unfortunately, I doubt this is my problem. The vibration is a new problem that only started this summer and it's intermittent. So far, everything that everyone has suggested would result in a constant vibration.

Something down in the engine space is moving/shifting/rotating between a tightness where the vibration stops and loosening again to allow the vibration. I'm at the point where I need to be in the engine space, under power with a hooman at the wheel. It could be something as simple as some loose hardware down there that isn't related to the driveline at all.

If it is something none drive train being excited you could mount a GoPro in the compartment with a good light to see if visually you can identify what’s going on.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

According to my manuals, WOT should be 2800 RPM. Interesting.

yeah, 2800 is right for the 5424. I should have known that since I have one of those.  3200 is the M35 I think. 

Have you played with the backstay yet?

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2 hours ago, debonAir said:

yeah, 2800 is right for the 5424. I should have known that since I have one of those.  3200 is the M35 I think. 

Have you played with the backstay yet?

No, I haven't been out yet. :(

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On 10/19/2021 at 11:36 AM, debonAir said:

yeah, 2800 is right for the 5424. I should have known that since I have one of those.  3200 is the M35 I think. 

Have you played with the backstay yet?

Ok, I tried the backstay trick this weekend. No effect. Thanks for the suggestion though. I plan on checking the steering gear and the rudder post this afternoon, after work.

I spent the weekend stowing, cleaning and restoring the interior of the boat after my mad rush of repairs following The Great Voltage Regulator Surge of 2021. 

The one major item left to repair is the depth finder. It appears that all of my Datamarine gauge spares are toast. I cannot test any of the spare transducers that I have. On top of this, DMI (the successor to Datamarine) no longer has "pin-in" transducers, only "screw-in" types. My system is the "pin-in" type, which uses a thick retention pin with a jesus clip to hold that in. This means that it is completely pointless and economically unfeasible to refurbish any of my old Datamarine equipment because I *still* need to haul out to replace the thru-hull for a new type of transducer. Refurbishing the old stuff would effectively cost MORE than the B&G upgrade.

This effectively forces the decision to a B&G Triton2 speed/depth/temp unit which is a solid boat unit. It's 1.5 boat units if I want wind data. Plus the haul-out.

Here are my questions related to the B&G Triton2 package with the Airmar DST810 transducer:

  • When properly networked, can I also display speed/depth on my Zeus3 plotter at the wheel?
  • What is the diameter of the THREADED portion of the Airmar thru-hull?  This link: DST810 transducer specs contains dimensional drawings but it only lists the width at the mushroom head, not the threaded body.  I need to know if the hole will be too large or not large enough, and if there will be enough hull material at the mushroom portion.

If anyone can help with those 2 questions, I'd be grateful.

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

Ok, I tried the backstay trick this weekend. No effect. Thanks for the suggestion though. I plan on checking the steering gear and the rudder post this afternoon, after work.

I spent the weekend stowing, cleaning and restoring the interior of the boat after my mad rush of repairs following The Great Voltage Regulator Surge of 2021. 

The one major item left to repair is the depth finder. It appears that all of my Datamarine gauge spares are toast. I cannot test any of the spare transducers that I have. On top of this, DMI (the successor to Datamarine) no longer has "pin-in" transducers, only "screw-in" types. My system is the "pin-in" type, which uses a thick retention pin with a jesus clip to hold that in. This means that it is completely pointless and economically unfeasible to refurbish any of my old Datamarine equipment because I *still* need to haul out to replace the thru-hull for a new type of transducer. Refurbishing the old stuff would effectively cost MORE than the B&G upgrade.

This effectively forces the decision to a B&G Triton2 speed/depth/temp unit which is a solid boat unit. It's 1.5 boat units if I want wind data. Plus the haul-out.

Here are my questions related to the B&G Triton2 package with the Airmar DST810 transducer:

  • When properly networked, can I also display speed/depth on my Zeus3 plotter at the wheel?
  • What is the diameter of the THREADED portion of the Airmar thru-hull?  This link: DST810 transducer specs contains dimensional drawings but it only lists the width at the mushroom head, not the threaded body.  I need to know if the hole will be too large or not large enough, and if there will be enough hull material at the mushroom portion.

If anyone can help with those 2 questions, I'd be grateful.

The owner's manual says you need a 2" hole saw for installation.

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Just now, Ishmael said:

The owner's manual says you need a 2" hole saw for installation.

Ok, that's helpful. I can put a caliper on my current thru-hull and see where that mic's out.

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I lucked out. My existing through-hull does have threads and it is the exact dimensions of the new, Airmar fitting. 

Best case- it's plug 'n play. 

Worst case- I haul out to swap the fitting but I can re-use the existing hole without any drilling or filling. 

This is looking better and better. 

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I think mine technically would have threaded on too, but the new one has a little flapper dealy that when it works right helps keep the spray into the boat from being a full on gusher. It worked as advertised until I probably got the transducer or the blank out off alignment and ripped the flappers off, or the wimpy little spring let go or whatever. Now it's back to playing "scuttle the ship" and trying not to take it in the face while I'm hanging head down under the v-berth every time I want to swap the things out.

It also may be possible that the external profile is the same but the internal is different? I didn't want to chance it due to the age difference and it was relatively easy to take the old one out and put the new one in. I had to cut the old one out since it was pretty well bonded in there, but the proper tools made sorta short work of it. I think I used either an oscillating tool or a fine toothed blade in a sawsall, or maybe both. I don't remember any more. 

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18 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

I think mine technically would have threaded on too, but the new one has a little flapper dealy that when it works right helps keep the spray into the boat from being a full on gusher. It worked as advertised until I probably got the transducer or the blank out off alignment and ripped the flappers off, or the wimpy little spring let go or whatever. Now it's back to playing "scuttle the ship" and trying not to take it in the face while I'm hanging head down under the v-berth every time I want to swap the things out.

It also may be possible that the external profile is the same but the internal is different? I didn't want to chance it due to the age difference and it was relatively easy to take the old one out and put the new one in. I had to cut the old one out since it was pretty well bonded in there, but the proper tools made sorta short work of it. I think I used either an oscillating tool or a fine toothed blade in a sawsall, or maybe both. I don't remember any more. 

Yes, those little flappers work well, as long as you aren't moving fast. At six knots they are pretty much useless. Another fact I wish I didn't know.

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It's amazing how much flow you can get through a 2" diameter hole with 3' of head. This I also know.

In the split second I spent frozen up while my mind boggled at the 18" tall solid column of water coming into the boat I managed to collect several gallons in the bilge.

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11 hours ago, Slick470 said:

It also may be possible that the external profile is the same but the internal is different?

The beauty is, I can verify all of this before touching my boat.  I have a pile of Datamarine spares that Larry gave me, including the through-hull.  It's identical to the one on the boat.  I can sit on the living room sofa and plug the new transducer into the old style through-hull and make certain that it fits properly and safely.

When I haul out next summer for bottom paint, I can swap the through-hull at that time, and enjoy the little flapper valve.

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4 hours ago, Ajax said:

The beauty is, I can verify all of this before touching my boat.  I have a pile of Datamarine spares that Larry gave me, including the through-hull.  It's identical to the one on the boat.  I can sit on the living room sofa and plug the new transducer into the old style through-hull and make certain that it fits properly and safely.

When I haul out next summer for bottom paint, I can swap the through-hull at that time, and enjoy the little flapper valve.

That is definitely a luxury I didn't have when I did mine. 

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13 hours ago, IStream said:

It's amazing how much flow you can get through a 2" diameter hole with 3' of head. This I also know.

In the split second I spent frozen up while my mind boggled at the 18" tall solid column of water coming into the boat I managed to collect several gallons in the bilge.

On the other hand I was amazed how effectively a tarp can stop that flow. I had to replace a throughhull valve at the last minute and all the yards were booked up so I pulled a tarp over the hole and did it in the water. I could have kept up with the flow with a sponge it was so little.

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19 hours ago, andykane said:

On the other hand I was amazed how effectively a tarp can stop that flow. I had to replace a throughhull valve at the last minute and all the yards were booked up so I pulled a tarp over the hole and did it in the water. I could have kept up with the flow with a sponge it was so little.

You've got balls. I admire your boldness and ingenuity.  What kind of tarp did you use? The shitty blue kind or something better?

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Ok, the electrical shop called. My alternator is repaired and ready. The tech said that the rectifier bridge had failed not the voltage regulator.

This doesn't make sense to me but I'm not an "expert" so I'll play along.  The tech installed my adjustable voltage regulator so now I can tune the alternator output to conform with my Firefly AGM batteries. 

$98 bucks. I consider that a square deal.

Over in Gear Anarchy, we've been having a lively discussion about implementing a NMEA 2k network on my boat so that I can replace my failed and ancient depth finder: 

 

Summary:  I'll be installing an Airmar DST810 speed/depth/temp transducer and installing a NMEA 2K backbone. The depth will report directly to the Zeus3 chart plotter.  This'll run me about $430. 

During the winter, I'll splurge for a Triton2 display which I will mount in the old Datamarine location on the cabin/cockpit coaming.  As money allows, I'll keep adding B&G toys such as wind, radar, AIS and even environmental sensors.

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8 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Ok, the electrical shop called. My alternator is repaired and ready. The tech said that the rectifier bridge had failed not the voltage regulator.

This doesn't make sense to me but I'm not an "expert" so I'll play along.  The tech installed my adjustable voltage regulator so now I can tune the alternator output to conform with my Firefly AGM batteries. 

$98 bucks. I consider that a square deal.

Over in Gear Anarchy, we've been having a lively discussion about implementing a NMEA 2k network on my boat so that I can replace my failed and ancient depth finder: 

 

Summary:  I'll be installing an Airmar DST810 speed/depth/temp transducer and installing a NMEA 2K backbone. The depth will report directly to the Zeus3 chart plotter.  This'll run me about $430. 

During the winter, I'll splurge for a Triton2 display which I will mount in the old Datamarine location on the cabin/cockpit coaming.  As money allows, I'll keep adding B&G toys such as wind, radar, AIS and even environmental sensors.

I've been pretty happy with my B&G stuff so far. I think you'll find the Triton's surprisingly flexible and easy to use especially since you already have a chartplotter. 

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5 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I've been pretty happy with my B&G stuff so far. I think you'll find the Triton's surprisingly flexible and easy to use especially since you already have a chartplotter. 

Yeah, since I've surrendered to the reality of the Upgrayedd I'm pretty excited at the flexibility and the ability to add stuff at a pace that I can afford instead of being forced into expensive "kits."

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12 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Yeah, since I've surrendered to the reality of the Upgrayedd I'm pretty excited at the flexibility and the ability to add stuff at a pace that I can afford instead of being forced into expensive "kits."

Yes, once you have your backbone in, you can get your double dose at your leisure.  I'm still debating the chartplotter and I'm probably going Pelagic with my autopilot. 

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15 hours ago, Elegua said:

Yes, once you have your backbone in, you can get your double dose at your leisure.  I'm still debating the chartplotter and I'm probably going Pelagic with my autopilot. 

I don't really like NMEA2K but it does seem to work ok. The stuff I've installed hasn't been any problem and the Digital Yacht NMEA0183 to 2K bridge for the depth sounder has been solid. I'm happy with my Simrad plotter, it does everything my simple needs require and seems suitably idiot-proof.

Could do a lot worse than an all 2K system if you're neither a marine electronics type nor a programmer.

FKT

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Could do a lot worse than an all 2K system if you're neither a marine electronics type nor a programmer.

I'm neither, so yeah...

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I don't really like NMEA2K but it does seem to work ok. The stuff I've installed hasn't been any problem and the Digital Yacht NMEA0183 to 2K bridge for the depth sounder has been solid. I'm happy with my Simrad plotter, it does everything my simple needs require and seems suitably idiot-proof.

Could do a lot worse than an all 2K system if you're neither a marine electronics type nor a programmer.

FKT

I've heard that NMEA 2k is essentially USB with marine terminals.  Is there any truth to that?  Is there any word on what the successor to NMEA 2K might be and when we should expect it to begin rolling out?

I'm going to be a bit miffed if I'm upgrading to a protocol that is about to be obsoleted.

Eons ago, I networked a pair of PCs with coax network cards. These required dummy load terminators on BNC t-connectors. This seems to be how NMEA works as well. As I understand it, without the dummy load terminators to cap off open connectors, there is an "echo" on the line that renders the network garbage. Devices cannot hear each other.

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11 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I've heard that NMEA 2k is essentially USB with marine terminals.  Is there any truth to that?  Is there any word on what the successor to NMEA 2K might be and when we should expect it to begin rolling out?

I'm going to be a bit miffed if I'm upgrading to a protocol that is about to be obsoleted.

Eons ago, I networked a pair of PCs with coax network cards. These required dummy load terminators on BNC t-connectors. This seems to be how NMEA works as well. As I understand it, without the dummy load terminators to cap off open connectors, there is an "echo" on the line that renders the network garbage. Devices cannot hear each other.

NMEA 0183 is still around long, long after it should've died. NMEA 2K will be with us long, long after the new NMEA ethernet protocol becomes mainstream.

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On 10/27/2021 at 6:24 AM, Ajax said:

You've got balls. I admire your boldness and ingenuity.  What kind of tarp did you use? The shitty blue kind or something better?

Or blissful ignorance? It's a fine line.

And yeah, just a shitty blue tarp. The water pressure is really low so you don't need much strength - just something waterproof.

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6 hours ago, Ajax said:

I've heard that NMEA 2k is essentially USB with marine terminals.  Is there any truth to that?  Is there any word on what the successor to NMEA 2K might be and when we should expect it to begin rolling out?

I'm going to be a bit miffed if I'm upgrading to a protocol that is about to be obsoleted.

Eons ago, I networked a pair of PCs with coax network cards. These required dummy load terminators on BNC t-connectors. This seems to be how NMEA works as well. As I understand it, without the dummy load terminators to cap off open connectors, there is an "echo" on the line that renders the network garbage. Devices cannot hear each other.

NMEA2K is essentially CANBus. Similar to the old thin net physically - 10Base2 I think. Basically coax carrying 12V current as well as data. Somewhat more robust.

I believe you can ignore the drop cables if they're not connected - I've some biggish multi-T connectors - but you do need a terminating resistor each end, so that seems to be the major difference to the old computer networking caper. Could be others, I'm no expert.

My objections are more on the proprietary nature of the data on the wire. I dislike stuff I can't tinker with easily.

Well over 20 years ago we designed & built a fairly extensive marine datalogging system using standard 10BaseT ethernet, now capable of running at gigabit speeds due to hardware improvements. The attached devices were assigned an IP address and port number. If they were 'talkers' as most instruments are, a connection to the address resulted in a data stream.

I am setting up NMEA0183 devices on my boat using the same technique. It is quite simple and robust, and you can actually read the sentences as they're all text strings.

But I do like to play with this sort of stuff...

And note that the modern radars use Ethernet to send their data and don't really care at all about a proprietary display unit, OpenCPN can display the radar data overlaid on a chart etc.

NFI where the marine electronics plans to go except my cynicism says it'll be in a direction that makes interoperability harder, if they can get away with it.

FKT

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6 hours ago, IStream said:

NMEA 0183 is still around long, long after it should've died. NMEA 2K will be with us long, long after the new NMEA ethernet protocol becomes mainstream.

The mass of wires for NMEA0183, sure. The data format, no, not IMO anyway.

I don't give a rat's arse about any supposed data rate improvement by using a data protocol that humans can't read with the Mk 1 eyeball. The NMEA0183 sentences are just text. Sending them over ethernet gets you the best of both worlds, the only real advantage of NMEA2K being the power provision as well as data transport, and that advantage went away with POE, at least in theory.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. If you just want to buy stuff, the NMEA2K stuff works and is pretty easy to install & bridge backwards using a black box of some sort. It's what I'd be using exclusively were it not that I like to play.

FKT

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

I'd take plain text via POE any day of the week but don't hold your breath for the NMEA. 

Yeah. I was playing with a cheap AIS receiver the other day, it spits out NMEA0183 via RS232 or 485. I wired it to a single port terminal server and opened a telnet session to it to look at the data. Piece of cake to see what's going on - I could see the AIS data sentences interspersed with the GPS ones using the ancient Mk 1 eyeball.

Well, if you have a linux or MacOSX machine anyway, seems Windoze doesn't supply a telnet client as standard. Couldn't do it on my friend's computer.

I'm waiting on a Quark Electronics heading sensor ATM - it's going to get the same treatment.

FKT

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