Jump to content

Ancient Polynesian Navigation


Terry Hollis

Recommended Posts

The Polynesians located every habitable island in the Pacific Ocean about 1,000 years before the Europeans .. They had no charts and no writing but their methods have survived until this day.



Ku Holo Mau


On March 5th, 2007, Hokule'a and Alingano Maisu - two Hawaiian double hull voyaging canoes - departed Chuuk in the Federated States of Micronesia for the tiny island of Satawal - to honor Mau Piailug, our mentor in the art of non-instrument navigation. On Satawal, five Hawaiian navigators and eleven from Satawal, will be initited by Mau into the rank of Pwo - master navigator.



http://www.samlow.com/sail-nav/satawal2007.htm



Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Polynesians located every habitable island in the Pacific Ocean about 1,000 years before the Europeans .. They had no charts and no writing but their methods have survived until this day.

Ku Holo Mau

On March 5th, 2007, Hokule'a and Alingano Maisu - two Hawaiian double hull voyaging canoes - departed Chuuk in the Federated States of Micronesia for the tiny island of Satawal - to honor Mau Piailug, our mentor in the art of non-instrument navigation. On Satawal, five Hawaiian navigators and eleven from Satawal, will be initited by Mau into the rank of Pwo - master navigator.

http://www.samlow.com/sail-nav/satawal2007.htm

 

now what you mean to say is: We have no recorded evidence of Europeans sailing across oceans before the Polynesian's. And: We have no knowledge of them using any charts in a form we would recognize today as charts. There is no proof they did not use some form of documentation for navigation. All we do know is they made it from point A to point B accross hundreds of miles of ocean without any tools that we would call navigation instruments. They may have had "charts carved into their boats and other tools based on a different science unrecognizable to us as science. Dowsing is an example of an old science that is over the head of modern man and I'm sure the Polynesians had others over our head as did many old cultures destroyed by modern man

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rimas

Thanks Varan....best laugh I've had in ages.

rimas can't navigate and the Polynesians most certainly could as well as other sea faring peoples of antiquity that used no known charts or instruments like the Kikings.

Kinda disrespectful for Polynesians to be compared to rimas don't you think? :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Polynesians located every habitable island in the Pacific Ocean about 1,000 years before the Europeans .. They had no charts and no writing but their methods have survived until this day.

 

Ku Holo Mau

On March 5th, 2007, Hokule'a and Alingano Maisu - two Hawaiian double hull voyaging canoes - departed Chuuk in the Federated States of Micronesia for the tiny island of Satawal - to honor Mau Piailug, our mentor in the art of non-instrument navigation. On Satawal, five Hawaiian navigators and eleven from Satawal, will be initited by Mau into the rank of Pwo - master navigator.

http://www.samlow.com/sail-nav/satawal2007.htm

now what you mean to say is: We have no recorded evidence of Europeans sailing across oceans before the Polynesian's. And: We have no knowledge of them using any charts in a form we would recognize today as charts. There is no proof they did not use some form of documentation for navigation. All we do know is they made it from point A to point B accross hundreds of miles of ocean without any tools that we would call navigation instruments. They may have had "charts carved into their boats and other tools based on a different science unrecognizable to us as science. Dowsing is an example of an old science that is over the head of modern man and I'm sure the Polynesians had others over our head as did many old cultures destroyed by modern man

Does every thread topic need its own Doug Lord?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

bad link

 

I have an older book on how they did it

 

What's the title if you mind?

 

"We the Navigators" , "east is a big bird", "the last navigator" are somewhat on subject.

 

I think it is this one

but can't find it

Polynesian Seafaring: A Disquisition on Prehistoric Celestial Navigation and the Nature of Seagoing Double Canoes, with Illustrations Reproducing Original Field Sketches, Wash Drawings, or Prints by Artists on the Early Voyages of Exploration and... by Edward Dodd printed in the early 70's but has lots of old drawings

 

We the Navigators was easy to find at bookbinders and alibris books

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no doubt/question that 'some' Polynesians, Vikings, etc. sailed vast distances, apparently without the assistance of what we would call charts or navigational equipment. However, we've no idea what proportion of those that set out over the years actually arrived where they intended, or indeed anywhere at all. If 2 in 3 got there/somewhere, then all respect to them, but if it was only 2 in every 30 that set off, then it'd have to go down as blind luck rather than navigational skill that got them across.

Link to post
Share on other sites

2007?

 

Maybe you don't know, but Hokule'a is, right as we speak, on a worldwide voyage, they're in the US last I looked:

 

http://www.hokulea.com

 

 

THE BAREFOOT NAVIGATOR is good, as is THE LAST NAVIGATOR

 

They're just leaving NYC after a presentation at the United Nations building. They are NOT proving anything- it's not the intention. They have modern satellite communications, get towed in and out harbors when necessary, and even have a North Sails jib enabling them to point a bit higher. This isn't a replica voyage showing that the ancient Polynesians circumnavigated the globe. They not looking for ancient Polynesian burial sites in Iceland. It is an attempt to raise cultural awareness to indigenous peoples, along with awareness of the environmental dangers to our oceans. It's a cool thing being done by some adventurous, knowledgable, committed folks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Traditional Navigation in the Western Pacific
A Search for Pattern

http://www.penn.museum/sites/Navigation/Misc/contents.html
fig9anim.gif
fig3anim.gif

Navigation and Stick Charts
http://www.rmiembassyus.org/Culture.htm#navig


From necessity, the sailors of the Marshalls were among the best in the Pacific: their islands were the smallest and they traveled the most. Their brilliant voyaging was based on their skills of observation. Meticulous observation of the only two things visible -- sky and water, the stars and the swells of the sea.

The voyages themselves were made in that fraction of the year when the Trades were not blowing and the weather was settled, and their craft grouped themselves together in large numbers -- which was not to say that all could not perish, as happened to over 100 canoes in 1830 and 35 vessels three decades later. Navigation was of course from island to island, or to sea-marks -- areas of ocean or reef that were recognized by the initiated. These objectives were reached by following the star paths above or the patterns of the sea around, or both. An apprentice would spend years memorizing hundreds of star courses between the atolls, as well as the marks, sea-ways, cloud shapes, winds, and the flight of birds. These, collated with his internal log and mental chronometer, added to the sailing masters retaining a wonderful and infallible sense of position through tacks, currents, gale-set without any sight of land, or sometimes even, clear sky.

The stick-charts were used to teach and record the swells of the sea itself. The science of swells is unknown outside the Pacific.


60133223.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

we've no idea what proportion of those that set out over the years actually arrived where they intended

Given the archaelogical evidence of migration from the Marquesas to Hawaii in AD-300 or so, and later migration from Bora Bora and Tahiti around AD-1000, I'd say they knew where they wanted to go. In fact there is evidence that they knew how to go both directions, not just outbound.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no doubt/question that 'some' Polynesians, Vikings, etc. sailed vast distances, apparently without the assistance of what we would call charts or navigational equipment. However, we've no idea what proportion of those that set out over the years actually arrived where they intended, or indeed anywhere at all. If 2 in 3 got there/somewhere, then all respect to them, but if it was only 2 in every 30 that set off, then it'd have to go down as blind luck rather than navigational skill that got them across.

Your right, but my point was that if we have no evidence one way or the other we should not jump to conclusions. When you do so those around you that may be inclined to see you as an authority will often accept your guess as gosple and may come back to haunt you. My work was often scrutinized by some of the best minds around as well as on occasion the courts and i learned never to make a statement that wasn't backed by hard facts and evidence. I had no issues with others finding errors i made I just made darn sure there were few if any when i made my conclusion and signed my name.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Traditional Navigation in the Western Pacific

A Search for Pattern

http://www.penn.museum/sites/Navigation/Misc/contents.html

fig9anim.gif

fig3anim.gif

 

 

Navigation and Stick Charts

http://www.rmiembassyus.org/Culture.htm#navig

From necessity, the sailors of the Marshalls were among the best in the Pacific: their islands were the smallest and they traveled the most. Their brilliant voyaging was based on their skills of observation. Meticulous observation of the only two things visible -- sky and water, the stars and the swells of the sea.

 

The voyages themselves were made in that fraction of the year when the Trades were not blowing and the weather was settled, and their craft grouped themselves together in large numbers -- which was not to say that all could not perish, as happened to over 100 canoes in 1830 and 35 vessels three decades later. Navigation was of course from island to island, or to sea-marks -- areas of ocean or reef that were recognized by the initiated. These objectives were reached by following the star paths above or the patterns of the sea around, or both. An apprentice would spend years memorizing hundreds of star courses between the atolls, as well as the marks, sea-ways, cloud shapes, winds, and the flight of birds. These, collated with his internal log and mental chronometer, added to the sailing masters retaining a wonderful and infallible sense of position through tacks, currents, gale-set without any sight of land, or sometimes even, clear sky.

 

The stick-charts were used to teach and record the swells of the sea itself. The science of swells is unknown outside the Pacific.

 

60133223.jpg

Thanks for the post. Good information. I'm sure what we currently know only scratches the surface of what the ancients knew. From my limited experiance it is obvious the sea has habits that vary by the season and if one has documented those habits via memory or otherwise and the conditions and dates of previous voyages over time a system would emerge allowing navigation anywhere. From what Fiji islanders said they could navigate even if ther seas were influenced by distant storms. I'm sure the skills took many years to master even with some form ofdocumentation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hawaiidart, please do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth. I said absolutely nothing about 'proving anything' but merely posted a link to the most recent exploits of Hokule'a.

 

 

 

 

2007?

 

Maybe you don't know, but Hokule'a is, right as we speak, on a worldwide voyage, they're in the US last I looked:

 

http://www.hokulea.com

 

 

THE BAREFOOT NAVIGATOR is good, as is THE LAST NAVIGATOR

 

They're just leaving NYC after a presentation at the United Nations building. They are NOT proving anything- it's not the intention. They have modern satellite communications, get towed in and out harbors when necessary, and even have a North Sails jib enabling them to point a bit higher. This isn't a replica voyage showing that the ancient Polynesians circumnavigated the globe. They not looking for ancient Polynesian burial sites in Iceland. It is an attempt to raise cultural awareness to indigenous peoples, along with awareness of the environmental dangers to our oceans. It's a cool thing being done by some adventurous, knowledgable, committed folks.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Cannot find the reference off hand, but in Capt Cook's journals/logs he is supposed to have

written with great admiration of the polynesian sailing craft, which could totally sail rings around

his Endeavor - which was admittedly built for a very different purpose.

 

And Cook voyaged with a polynesian priests and navigators, including Tupaia, with whom he exchanged ideas.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Founding the Polynesian Voyaging Society; Building Hōkūle‘a by Ben Finney

Cook actually learned some Tahitian, and used his rudimentary linguistic skills to inquire into Tahitian nautical matters. His primary informant was Tupa'ia, a learned Tahitian who told Cook how they sailed their canoes and navigated by reference to the stars, moon and sun, and gave him sailing directions to islands as far away as the Marquesas to the northwest, the Australs to the South and at least as far west as Såmoa, Fiji and Rotuma. Cook was apparently impressed enough with the practical seamanship and navigational skills of the Tahitians, and their wide geographical knowledge, to propose what had been unthinkable to Quiros, Roggeveen and other early European explorers: that the ancestors of these islanders could have sailed into the Pacific on their own, discovering and settling the many islands on which he found their descendants.

Cook thought the islanders (whom he called "Indians" or "South Sea Islanders," for the term "Polynesian" had yet to be applied specifically to them) had worked their way eastward across the Pacific in their canoes, which he calls "proes" from the Malay prahu, or "Pahee's" from the Tahitian pahi:4

In these Proes or Pahee's as they call them from all accounts we can learn, these people sail in those seas from Island to Island for several hundred Leagues, the Sun serving them for a compass by day and the Moon and Stars by night. When this comes to be prov'd we Shall be no longer at a loss to know how the Islands lying in those Seas came to be people'd, for if the inhabitants of Uleitea [Ra'iatea] have been at islands laying 2 or 300 Leagues to the westward of them it cannot be doubted but that the inhabitants of those western Islands may have been at others as far to westward of them and so we may trace them from Island to Island quite to the East Indias.

Cook saw only one obstacle to accepting the linguistic evidence, supplied to him by his chief scientist Joseph Banks, pointing to the "East Indias," or roughly the archipelago of Indonesia, as the starting point for this migration: the route would have taken canoes eastward in the face of the trade winds that blow from the east-southeast. He evidently had doubts about the ability of the islanders' canoes to sail directly into the trade winds, and quizzed Tupa'ia accordingly. The Tahitian, whom he called "Tupia," had a ready answer that supplied Cook with the information he needed to complete the picture:5

Tupia tells us that during the Months of Novr Decembr& January Westerly Winds with rain prevail & as the inhabitants of the Islands know very well how to make proper use of the winds there will no difficulty arise in Trading or sailing from Island to Islands even tho' they lay in an East & West direction.

So, with his seaman's eye and eminently good sense, Cook proposed that the islanders came from the west, originally from the East Indies where related languages were spoken, and that they employed their sailing canoes, non-instrument navigational ability, and skill at utilizing westerly wind shifts to work their way eastward, from island to island, against the direction of the prevailing trade winds.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Hawaiidart, please do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth. I said absolutely nothing about 'proving anything' but merely posted a link to the most recent exploits of Hokule'a."

 

Max: I apologize if my words were poorly stated or misconstrued. It's the damn sleezy press, mostly Megan Kelly and that Mexican judge picking on me again. I'll stick to the teleprompter next time. I certainly wasn't meaning to comment on your post; I was trying to reflect on the purpose and passion for this voyage for the uninitiated. We are all proud of the Hokele'a and her crew sailing that rather small, largely open vessel around the world in the name the spirit of Aloha.

 

Max, I hope we are pono, as the Hawaiians say.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The revival of interest in Polynesian Navigation owes a lot to the late Dr. Lewis who learnt about it from the master navigator Hipour of Micronesia.

 

David Henry Lewis, DCNZM (1917 - 23 October 2002) was a sailor, adventurer, doctor, and Polynesian scholar. He is best known for his studies on the traditional systems of navigation used by the Pacific Islanders. His studies, published in the book We, the Navigators, made these navigational methods known to a wide audience and helped to inspire a revival of traditional voyaging methods in the South Pacific.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Henry_Lewis

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Our friend Lee Taylor's dad was the captain of the KAMA HELE, which was the escort boat for the Hokule'a. Lee was lucky enough to go along on the trip to Japan a few years ago, and got to see Mau Piailug, and witnessed the gift of the ALIGANO MAISU canoe to Mr Piailug, and also saw him confer the Navigator title to Shorty Bertelman. Lee was kind enough to share some pics:

 

Mau Piailug

4798567217_67c64d3a57_b.jpg

 

 

Piailug conferring the title of NAVIGATOR to Shorty Bertelman:

4798570253_5e56e4b86f_b.jpg

 

 

The ALIGANO MAISU canoe:

4798580877_b0d97d8900_b.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Geordie Tocher sailed a Douglas Fir dugout canoe from Vancouver to Hawaii to prove the Hiada could've traded with the Hawaiians in ancient times.

 

July, 1978 via Santa Cruz, California, apparently: http://www.nytimes.com/1978/07/30/archives/canadatohawaii-trip-succeeds.html

 

HONOLULU, July 29 (AP) — Three men who set out for Hawaii from British Columbia in a 42‐foot dugout canoe sailed into a Honolulu Yacht Harbor yesterday.

 

The skipper, Geordie Tocher of West Vancouver, B.C., was trying to prove that the Haida Indians from British Columbia could have sailed to Hawaii 1,200 years ago. He and the crew members, Richard Tomkies and Gerhard Kiesel, set out May 19 but had to stop at Santa Cruz, Calif., when Mr. Tocher became ill.

http://www.vancourier.com/news/archives-the-month-of-may-in-vancouver-history-1.1096218

 

Dugout canoe sets off for Hawaii

 

May 14, 1978: Three adventurers set sail for Hawaii in a Haida-style war canoe made of Douglas fir to test a theory the original inhabitants of the Hawaiian islands might have come from British Columbia. Captain James Cook first reported similarities between the Haida and Hawaiians after landing on Vancouver Island in 1778. Boat-builder Geordie Tocher, Richard Tomkies and navigator Gerhard Kiesel departed from Vancouver in a 12-metre-long dugout canoe named the Orenda II that also featured sails. They reached Waikiki after 54 days at sea.

"$50,000 so far"... Took most of three years to carve the canoe from a single 18 ton Douglas fir log:

 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ufBLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4-0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3365%2C3300473

Link to post
Share on other sites

JFC, when a population reaches a zenith, people leave.

If it is an Island, then they can only guess there are others in the area.

Stumble around in the dark and eventually you will find something.

The human race is far older than they (whoever they is) will let on.

Do not believe anything about human history you have been taught or believe.

 

Wait another 100 years and we will be stumbling around the interplanetary medium and maybe the local group.

Link to post
Share on other sites

JFC, when a population reaches a zenith, people leave.

If it is an Island, then they can only guess there are others in the area.

Stumble around in the dark and eventually you will find something.

 

The human race is far older than they (whoever they is) will let on.

Do not believe anything about human history you have been taught or believe.

 

Wait another 100 years and we will be stumbling around the interplanetary medium and maybe the local group.

 

Sometimes it's an invasion that triggers exploration by the refugees,

 

When the Chinese invaded Taiwan about 5,000 years ago the indigenous people were displaced .. some moved inland and are known today as the Mountain People.

 

Others were fishermen so they looked out for other alternatives and found the Philippines Malaysia Indonesia New Guinea and eventually about 3000 years ago they started on the Pacific Ocean. Of course this did not happen over night and there was a lot of intermarriage along the way which accounts for differences between the people of the Philippines and the New Zealand Maori but their language has the same Taiwanese origins.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

JFC, when a population reaches a zenith, people leave.

If it is an Island, then they can only guess there are others in the area.

Stumble around in the dark and eventually you will find something.

 

The human race is far older than they (whoever they is) will let on.

Do not believe anything about human history you have been taught or believe.

 

Wait another 100 years and we will be stumbling around the interplanetary medium and maybe the local group.

 

Oh, good, a Trump supporter.

 

chuckle...thanks for the laugh. He is right about the human race and much of history is rewritten by those in power to suit them. Often takes lots of digging to find the truth about history

Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry: are these the same people who

 

 

JFC, when a population reaches a zenith, people leave.

If it is an Island, then they can only guess there are others in the area.

Stumble around in the dark and eventually you will find something.

The human race is far older than they (whoever they is) will let on.

Do not believe anything about human history you have been taught or believe.

 

Wait another 100 years and we will be stumbling around the interplanetary medium and maybe the local group.

 

Sometimes it's an invasion that triggers exploration by the refugees,

 

When the Chinese invaded Taiwan about 5,000 years ago the indigenous people were displaced .. some moved inland and are known today as the Mountain People.

 

Others were fishermen so they looked out for other alternatives and found the Philippines Malaysia Indonesia New Guinea and eventually about 3000 years ago they started on the Pacific Ocean. Of course this did not happen over night and there was a lot of intermarriage along the way which accounts for differences between the people of the Philippines and the New Zealand Maori but their language has the same Taiwanese origins.

 

Terry: are these the same people who later wandered to Australia i.e. the Aboriginals?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry: are these the same people who

 

 

JFC, when a population reaches a zenith, people leave.

If it is an Island, then they can only guess there are others in the area.

Stumble around in the dark and eventually you will find something.

 

The human race is far older than they (whoever they is) will let on.

Do not believe anything about human history you have been taught or believe.

 

Wait another 100 years and we will be stumbling around the interplanetary medium and maybe the local group.

 

Sometimes it's an invasion that triggers exploration by the refugees,

 

When the Chinese invaded Taiwan about 5,000 years ago the indigenous people were displaced .. some moved inland and are known today as the Mountain People.

 

Others were fishermen so they looked out for other alternatives and found the Philippines Malaysia Indonesia New Guinea and eventually about 3000 years ago they started on the Pacific Ocean. Of course this did not happen over night and there was a lot of intermarriage along the way which accounts for differences between the people of the Philippines and the New Zealand Maori but their language has the same Taiwanese origins.

 

Terry: are these the same people who later wandered to Australia i.e. the Aboriginals?

 

The Aboriginals of Australia have been in Australia for 50,000 years .. the only evidence that the Taiwanese people may have visited Australia is the Australian Dingo which is a dog that has been in Australia for about 4,500 years and seems to have the same origin as the Taiwanese dog.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

bad link

 

I have an older book on how they did it

What's the title if you mind?

 

"We the Navigators" , "east is a big bird", "the last navigator" are somewhat on subject.

"Vaka Moana: Voyages of the Ancestors" is a fantastic and comprehensive book on instrument-less Polynesian navigation. Highly recommended.

 

There's also great stuff on YouTube. The Mau Piailug Society: https://m.youtube.com/user/maupiailugsociety. Those guys are/were incredible sailors/navigators - tons to learn there.

 

One of my goals is to one day cross an ocean using a sextant...followed by learning at least some of the basic rudiments of non-instrument navigation....one day :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maori TV film Te Mana o te Moana The Pacific Voyagers wins big at New York awards

 

A Maori Television documentary film production has scooped up a prestigious award at the New York Film and Television Awards.

 

Te Mana o te Moana The Pacific Voyagers picked up a world medal at the awards held in Las Vegas this week, in the new documentary category of climate change and sustainability.

 

The film, directed by Anna Marbrook and Mike Single, premiered on Maori Television in 2015.

 

1461877041276.jpg

MAORI TV

 

Te Mana o te Moana The Pacific Voyagers traces the two-year voyage of seven waka as they traverse the Pacific Ocean.

 

It traces the epic two-year voyage of seven, 72 foot waka as they traverse the Pacific Ocean, reviving the sailing and navigational prowess of their ancestors.

 

Marbrook said the win reinforced how the New Zealand and the Pacific voyaging community can inspire the world stage.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/79420968/maori-tv-film-te-mana-o-te-moana-the-pacific-voyagers-wins-big-at-new-york-awards

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's now widely accepted that the Polynesians came to the shores of Southern California long before the Europeans. For example the Chumash Indian word for canoe is nearly identical to the Polynesian word.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The travels of the Polynesians are widely accepted but the film expands on that and finds from DNA testing and other evidence that a completely separate group made it's way from the Middle East across the Atlantic to America and into the Pacific. A really interesting film which explains why the Maori of New Zealand are a bit different to other Polynesians.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

The travels of the Polynesians are widely accepted but the film expands on that and finds from DNA testing and other evidence that a completely separate group made it's way from the Middle East across the Atlantic to America and into the Pacific. A really interesting film which explains why the Maori of New Zealand are a bit different to other Polynesians.

How were you able to view the film? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The travels of the Polynesians are widely accepted but the film expands on that and finds from DNA testing and other evidence that a completely separate group made it's way from the Middle East across the Atlantic to America and into the Pacific. A really interesting film which explains why the Maori of New Zealand are a bit different to other Polynesians.

How were you able to view the film? I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

It's post #45 .. Just click on it and away you go.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just watched the film and found it extremely interesting.

There has to be more on this.

Many thanks for posting.

Cheers,

Jim B)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The travels of the Polynesians are widely accepted but the film expands on that and finds from DNA testing and other evidence that a completely separate group made it's way from the Middle East across the Atlantic to America and into the Pacific. A really interesting film which explains why the Maori of New Zealand are a bit different to other Polynesians.

How were you able to view the film? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It's post #45 .. Just click on it and away you go.

Thanks - for some reason, the link wasn't showing up in your post when I view SA on my phone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

This book by Ross Bodle covers early Pacific settlement ..

 

https://www.createspace.com/3832110

 

Before Maori - NZ's First Inhabitants

Authored by Ross M Bodle

This book explores a variety of evidence pointing to a long-term pre-Maori inhabitation of New Zealand. It covers the movement of people from Africa, across Asia and down through the Pacific, tracing their route by demonstrating striking similarities of language and culture. The content may be controversial, but the book, far from being divisive, encourages all native-born New Zealanders to think of themselves as one people.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Terry: are these the same people who later wandered to Australia i.e. the Aboriginals?

 

 

probably

 

aboriginals forebears

 

rafted between land bridges

 

and as Terry said

 

at least 50,000 (lake mungo) years before

 

polynesians left Taiwan

 

papua new guineans, melanesians - fijians

 

of very close dna stock

 

have the highest neandertal dna count 4%? of modern humans

 

3% to 5% of the DNA of Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians deriving from Denisovans

 

as they walked through indonesia

 

did the hobbits retreat to the hills?

 

at least an

 

ice-age.12536.jpg

 

before polynesians got sailing

 

The evidence that the first people arrived in Australia at least by 45,000 years ago is strong. There is some pretty good evidence that they arrived 75,000 years ago or earlier. Even if we take the 50,000 year figure that means that people arrived in Australia more than 25,000 years before people arrived in the Americas and Lascaux caves were painted in France.

 

the time scales are huge!

 

In 2013, mitochondrial DNA from a 400,000-year-old hominin femur bone from Spain, which had been seen as either Neanderthal or Homo heidelbergensis, was found to be closer to Denisovan mtDNA than to Neanderthal mtDNA.[15]

 

map_sahul.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is plenty of info thatt has scienticic verification that the polynesians never sailed across from the islands to NZ and only got there via the great asain land mass breaking apart and they ended up stuck on small islands.

 

They only travelled small distances from islands to island.

 

This " spin" that tyey sailed from the islands in the intertropical convergance zone to NZ is bullcrap of the highest order and worthy of a page in the AC thread.

 

That bit of ocean is hard enough with a well found yacht let alone with two hollowed out tree trunks, lashed bamboo, and dudes in grass skirts and and a box of fruit.

 

Alot of the polynesian information is not basdd on facts or real hard evidence but stories told and extrapolated over many many years.

 

Sure they could sail from island to island, and generally within sight of the next destination but they could not sail at 2-6 knots for weeks with no reference point across a large ocean with the destination point not defined.

 

But do not let logic get in the way of a good old yarn!

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

and LBS, don't let your prejudice get in the way of considering the possibility that the Polynesians did actually colonize the Pacific. Speaking of random landings, last time I checked, Columbus was fuckin' lost as a goose, which is how native north Americans got incorrectly named 'Indians,' amongst other similar things...

 

http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/index.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/books-and-reviews/proof-of-pre-maori/

 

http://chinesecommunity.org.nz/site/topics/show/109-did-the-chinese-discover-new-zealand-first

 

 

Worthy of consideration but this could change your minds...

 

http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

 

Especially the carbon dating of a chinese wall from 1161 to 1624.

 

Maori have no records and all information is based on tales and stories. Chinese stone walls dating pre maori makes a fairly big and factual statement.

 

Maybe the chineses brought them there?

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/books-and-reviews/proof-of-pre-maori/

 

http://chinesecommunity.org.nz/site/topics/show/109-did-the-chinese-discover-new-zealand-first

 

 

Worthy of consideration but this could change your minds...

 

http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

 

Especially the carbon dating of a chinese wall from 1161 to 1624.

 

Maori have no records and all information is based on tales and stories. Chinese stone walls dating pre maori makes a fairly big and factual statement.

 

Maybe the chineses brought them there?

 

I am not clear about what point you are trying to make .. if you are saying that Maori were not the first people to settle in New Zealand I doubt that anyone here would disagree with you.

 

If you read Ross Bodle's book he has evidence of five settlements before Maori.

Link to post
Share on other sites

the polynesians never sailed across from the islands to NZ and only got there via the great asain land mass breaking apart and they ended up stuck on small islands.

 

They only travelled small distances from islands to island.

 

 

now there's a trump supporter!

 

not sure NZ was ever part of any asian land mass, certainly not 800? years ago when maori came to NZ

 

only land mass the south island may have been connected to is anarctica and that was 200 million years ago

 

before homo sapiens even existed?

 

mapsnz07m.gif

 

In paleoanthropology, Out of Africa I is the first series of hominin expansions into Eurasia, which took place from 1.8 to 0.8 million years ago.

Shortly before in Africa, Homo erectus had descended from the woodland-restricted Homo habilis. H. erectus, diverging from H. habilis,

adapted to the open grounds of the savannahs and arid landscapes, and later managed to expand out of East Africa, eventually into Eurasia.

 

but

 

your name suggest a simpler explanation

 

you're just 1 of the many personality defective guys who are killing SA

 

for your incomprehensible amusement

 

sad on so many levels

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

the polynesians never sailed across from the islands to NZ and only got there via the great asain land mass breaking apart and they ended up stuck on small islands.

They only travelled small distances from islands to island.

 

now there's a trump supporter!

 

not sure NZ was ever part of any asian land mass, certainly not 800? years ago when maori came to NZ

 

only land mass the south island may have been connected to is anarctica and that was 200 million years ago

 

before homo sapiens even existed?

 

mapsnz07m.gif

 

In paleoanthropology, Out of Africa I is the first series of hominin expansions into Eurasia, which took place from 1.8 to 0.8 million years ago.

Shortly before in Africa, Homo erectus had descended from the woodland-restricted Homo habilis. H. erectus, diverging from H. habilis,

adapted to the open grounds of the savannahs and arid landscapes, and later managed to expand out of East Africa, eventually into Eurasia.

 

but

 

your name suggest a simpler explanation

 

you're just 1 of the many personality defective guys who are killing SA

 

for your incomprehensible amusement

 

sad on so many levels

Defective... wow!... how do you define that?

 

And...I didnt think i was that influential... but hey thanks. :-).

 

And if i was a trunp supporter, and i am not, i would not be on the minority in America!

 

But i am noy a clinon supporter either.

 

May be your just a litte insecure ane sheltered from the big world.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/wordpress/articles/books-and-reviews/proof-of-pre-maori/http://chinesecommunity.org.nz/site/topics/show/109-did-the-chinese-discover-new-zealand-first

Worthy of consideration but this could change your minds...http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

Especially the carbon dating of a chinese wall from 1161 to 1624.

Maori have no records and all information is based on tales and stories. Chinese stone walls dating pre maori makes a fairly big and factual statement.

Maybe the chineses brought them there?

 

I am not clear about what point you are trying to make .. if you are saying that Maori were not the first people to settle in New Zealand I doubt that anyone here would disagree with you.

 

If you read Ross Bodle's book he has evidence of five settlements before Maori.

Gee terry and i thought you werecignoring me!

 

What i am meaning is...

 

 

The maori and polynesians ability to navigate across dangerous oceans and out of sight of land is based on stories and yarns with no basis of fact or hard evidence.

 

Therecis more evidence of aussie and nz being part of the asian land mass and breaking away over thousands of years than people sailin to NZ on logs.

 

There is even evidence to suggest the maori are chinese outcasts or travellers.

 

Just putting some perspective into the discussion.... again!

Link to post
Share on other sites

not really perspective

 

when's it's wacko mumpbojumbo

 

seemingly not know or caring that

 

things before your lifetime

 

stretch over a REALLY long time

 

so didn't all happen at the same time

Link to post
Share on other sites

Micronesian navigation techniques have been maintained up until the present day ..

 

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/diagram/2220/navigating-by-the-stars

 

Various groups from Hawaii and New Zealand which had lost their old navigation skills have recovered the methods from the Micronesians and conducted numerous voyages in traditional canoes to prove the ancient methods.

 

Captain Cook found that the Polynesians were able to navigate across the open ocean and used Tupaia from Tahiti to guide him.

 

http://www.randomhouse.co.nz/books/joan-druett/tupaia-the-remarkable-story-of-captain-cooks-polynesian-navigator-9781869797133.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

not really perspective

 

when's it's wacko mumpbojumbo

 

seemingly not know or caring that

 

things before your lifetime

 

stretch over a REALLY long time

 

so didn't all happen at the same time

 

Mumbo jumbo?... read what youve written... bro!

You should never post when drunk erice!...

Link to post
Share on other sites

just the 1 glass of merlot at the mo

 

but the bottle's already lookin scared

 

tell me how

 

polynesians

 

walked or skipped

 

the 2,500km to nz

 

in 1300AD

 

or

 

how they

 

walked or skipped between co-joined land masses 200,000,000 years ago

 

well before homosapiens existed

 

let alone polynesians

Link to post
Share on other sites

As i said above eric e...

 

As the great land masses split off, over thousands of years, asians became stranded fom each other and eventually they were to far away and forgotten. They initially sailed short distances, within site if land mostly but that stopped. Which is why no evidence of vessel prior to chineses travellers.

 

Their boats were never strong enough nor equipped enough for long ocean voyage's.

 

Ever wondered why som pure bred Maori look asain and vice versa?... also with time, different diets, sun exposure, etc these asains changed to be darker ( Aborigines ) and lighter (chinese) etc......

 

Thats why they are labelled poly nesians.

Link to post
Share on other sites

back to that again

 

the land masses didn't breakup thousands of years ago leaving scattered groups of asians on them

 

the land masses broke up millions of years ago before humans existed as a species

 

however hundreds of thousands of years ago during ice ages there were some land bridges that allowed java man, florensian? hobbits + aboriginals to get to austraia and papua new guinea, probably about the same time peking man was getting into place

 

but that was hundreds of thousands of years before polynesians left taiwan in boats

 

the time scales are completely different

 

as are the peoples being discussed

 

think of hawaii

 

it was never a drifting land mass that somehow sailed across the ocean from japan

 

like most of polynesia it was/is a volcano that came straight up from the sea floor in the middle of the ocean

 

thousands of miles from any other land mass

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of you are quite knowledgable about this subject, which I find fascinating. When I received my degree in history, apparently nothing other than Europe existed, at least until Marco Polo discovered Asia. Badda Boom. All the history I learned was all from a western (read white) perspective. I ask: there is some evidence that the first ancient Polynesians who sailed to Hawaii heard legends of the islands preceding their departure? Where would those legends have come from? Was there somebody here before the first ancient Polynesian immigrants? Did those folks have a vague concept about Hawaii before they set off or did they just bump into it on the way elsewhere? And where would that somewhere else be if they weren't intentionally heading here? Just curious about a gap in my understanding.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^

 

a very good question

 

migrate3.gif

 

http://maaori.com/people/maoriara.htm

 

large migrations legends to islands often mention that there were already a few people there

 

or that local explorers had roughly charted their locations before settlers came

 

the icelandic sagas generally say erik the red was the first to go there and greenland

 

"but for some skraelings and holy men they quickly killed"

 

http://www.sagatapestry.com/2012/07/skraeling-history-101.html

 

maori legend says kupe the great polynesian navigator found new zealand empty

 

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/first-peoples-in-maori-tradition/page-6

 

stayed a year or 2 exploring before heading back to hawaiki to report the biggest land mass he'd ever seen

 

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/hawaiki

 

which led to the assembling of the great migration by 12 voyaging catamarans

 

the chatham islands far off the east coast of the south island have a polynesian group called the moriori

 

who say when they got to those cold, windy, great white shark encircled islands

 

there were already people there

 

Current research also indicates that Moriori came to the Chatham Islands from New Zealand about 1500. Moriori traditions, however, hold that there were people on the island before the canoe voyagers arrived.

 

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/moriori/page-1

 

the earliest polynesian explorers appear to have been the lapita people

 

The Lapita people are the ancestors of the Polynesians. They fished, grew taro, yams and breadfruit, and kept pigs, dogs and chickens. Many words for foods in Polynesian languages are very similar, and linguists have used them to help reconstruct the proto-Austronesian language of the Lapita. For instance the word for taro – talo in Tongan – was tales in the Lapita language.

 

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/pacific-migrations/page-3

 

who moved into the south pacific with their distinctive pottery all the way to samoa

 

the secret of making the pottery

 

being quickly lost by succeeding generations

 

lots of mystery in the pacific

 

the tongan HaamongaaMaui another

 

The Tongan state was the only maritime polity in Oceania to encompass an entire archipelago and, through long-distance voyaging, to extend its influence to other island groups through political and economic exchanges.

Stone tools recovered from the central places of the Tongan state were geochemically analyzed to provide the first archaeological assessment of maritime interaction in the Central Pacific, with a high proportion of tools (66%) identified as long-distance imports from Fiji, Samoa, and the Society Islands. Exotic lithics were an important source of political capital used by Tongan elites, and an important consequence of centralization was the development of interaction centers through which people, products, and information about political organizations reached many parts of the prehistoric Pacific.

 

F1.medium.gif

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/29/10491.full

 

HaamongaaMaui3.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Max Rocatansky - calling Christopher Columbus "lost as a goose" is a bit of slander to geese. Helluva sailor that he may have been - he did think initially that Cuba was Japan, so yes...rather unclear on the 'big picture'.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^

 

thanks

 

if tv must change because of the internet

 

then universities because of google

 

Terry

 

haven't watched that yet

 

am well aware of

 

Maori oral traditions speak of people already living in parts of New Zealand when they arrived. They are known by various names, but most commonly as Patupaiarehe and Turehu.[3]

 

my personal feeling is that was much like modern icelanders believing in pixies

 

i support the opinions of the academics who have spent their lives studying these things and writing peer-reviewed papers on them

 

Richard Hill, professor of New Zealand Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, said in 2012, "Not one of [the theories] has ever passed any remote academic scrutiny."[8] Hugh Laracy of the University of Auckland called them "wild speculation" that has been "thoroughly disposed of by academic specialists".[9]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-M%C4%81ori_settlement_of_New_Zealand_theories

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

am well aware of

 

Maori oral traditions speak of people already living in parts of New Zealand when they arrived. They are known by various names, but most commonly as Patupaiarehe and Turehu.[3]

 

my personal feeling is that was much like modern icelanders believing in pixies

 

i support the opinions of the academics who have spent their lives studying these things and writing peer-reviewed papers on them

 

Richard Hill, professor of New Zealand Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, said in 2012, "Not one of [the theories] has ever passed any remote academic scrutiny."[8] Hugh Laracy of the University of Auckland called them "wild speculation" that has been "thoroughly disposed of by academic specialists".[9]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-M%C4%81ori_settlement_of_New_Zealand_theories

 

I have seen nothing that comes close to refuting the DNA evidence .. I strongly recommend that you view the film which is now available on YouTube ..

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

afaik

 

the dna evidence links maori to the hill people of taiwan (before chiang kai shek's invasion of han chinese)

 

In May, government representatives of Taiwan and New Zealand established formal ties as a result of genetic research connecting the indigenous peoples of Taiwan and the Maori of New Zealand.

 

The connection between these cultures can be traced back approximately 60,000 years. Chambers maintains that during this time people of the Papuan language group populated Australia and Papua New Guinea as well as various Bismarck Archipelago Islands. Thousands of years later (8,000 to 10,000 years ago) members of the Austronesian language group traveled south from Taiwan and passed through the Philippines and Indonesia. Along the way the Papuans and Austronesians intermarried, giving birth to contemporary Polynesians and ultimately settling in what is now New Zealand.

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/justine-petrillo/genetic-link-brings-indigenous-taiwanese-and-maori-together

 

When you wait 5000 years to catch up with close relatives, it's no wonder the family reunion goes off with quite a bang. Adam Dudding reports on a remarkable meeting between Maori writers and their Taiwanese 'living ancestors'.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/asia/67390585/New-Zealands-long-lost-Taiwanese-cuzzies

 

Asian Ancestry and Polynesian Variation:

As people moved throughout the Pacific and into Polynesia, genetic interactions took place.

The movement of mitochondrial haplogroups represent the migration of people from South East Asia through Near Oceania into Polynesia.

B and Q are two such haplogroups which made it through to Polynesia. .

The B4 subclade arose about 44,000 years ago in mainland Southeast Asia3 .

From there it diverged into many more subclades including B4a1a which is restricted to Taiwan, Island Southeast Asia and the Pacific4 .

 

The haplotypes present in the New Zealand population are most similar to those from French Polynesia, for example haplotype B4a1a1m (see table 1). This haplotype is restricted to the AWC Summer Studentship Final Report: Edana Lord French Polynesian and New Zealand Maori populations. This contributes further to the hypothesis that New Zealand Maori are descended from Eastern Polynesians2,1

 

http://www.allanwilsoncentre.ac.nz/massey/fms/AWC/documents/Publication/Edana%20Lord%20-%202014-2015%20AWC%20Summer%20Scholarship%20Report.pdf

 

In the last few decades mitochondrial DNA research has allowed an estimate to be made of the number of women in the founding population - between 50 and 100.[16][17] There is limited evidence of return, or attempted return voyages, from archaeological evidence in the Kermadec Islands.[citation needed]

Evidence from archaeology, linguistics, and physical anthropology indicates that the first settlers came from east Polynesia and became the Māori.

Language evolution studies[18] and mitochondrial DNA evidence[19] suggest that most Pacific populations originated from Taiwanese aborigines around 5,200 years ago (suggesting prior migration from the Asian or Chinese mainland).[20]

These ancestors moved down through Southeast Asia and Indonesia.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people

presumably the dna evidence you speak of is different to this?

 

if so can you post links to any scientific papers spelling out the exact dna links as above?

 

or is it only available in vague form

 

via a youtube video?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

When the first of the "modern" Hawaiians made landfall on Hawaii, they found people already there. Very little is known of them, other than they were shorter/smaller than the moderns. They were quickly enslaved & eliminated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Uncovering the secrets of NZ's discovery

7:32 PM Tuesday Sep 30, 2014
Two scientific papers have shed new light on how Polynesian explorers may have arrived in New Zealand, but the authors have cautioned key questions in the age-old mystery remain unanswered.

Just when and how the first people arrived in New Zealand has been a hotly debated topic for generations.

One of the contested areas is just how the Polynesians managed to traverse such vast stretches of open water -- especially by paddling canoes into prevailing easterly Pacific Ocean winds.

But now, climate researchers believe the early explorers may have found a several decades-long window of favourable winds.

Researchers from Macquarie University in Sydney and the Australian National University in Canberra said the window occurred between 1140 and 1260 -- precisely the periods when archaeological evidence indicated New Zealand was colonised by Maori.

"Our reconstructed sailing conditions during the period of East Polynesian colonisation would have enabled all of the known colonising routes, and others," wrote Ian Goodwin, a climatologist at Macquarie University, in a paper published online today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The researchers said this showed an ability to sail upwind was not essential.

"Our point is that the climatic evidence suggests that an upwind capability was not necessary for exploration and colonisation of the remote East Polynesian islands (New Zealand and Easter Island) during these periods," the study said.

The wind reconstructions, based on new data about the past climate, also suggested Polynesian long-distance voyaging declined after 1300 because the winds shifted to their current patterns.

Bruce McFadgen, an archaeologist at Victoria University in Wellington, wrote that the wind patterns paper presented "a very important result and has implications not only for when settlement might have occurred, but also for return voyaging [of explorers] to tropical Polynesia".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11334324&ref=rss

Link to post
Share on other sites

When the first of the "modern" Hawaiians made landfall on Hawaii, they found people already there. Very little is known of them, other than they were shorter/smaller than the moderns. They were quickly enslaved & eliminated.

 

I wouldn't tell my native Hawaian friends that they were eliminated they may not like it and they are not tiny

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

When the first of the "modern" Hawaiians made landfall on Hawaii, they found people already there. Very little is known of them, other than they were shorter/smaller than the moderns. They were quickly enslaved & eliminated.

 

I wouldn't tell my native Hawaian friends that they were eliminated they may not like it and they are not tiny

 

 

This comment smacks of racism. What makes you think that the "moderns" were Europeans and not the existing native Hawaiians?

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but If I understand longy correctly, it is the people populating the islands before the current native Hawaiians who were enslaved & eliminated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

When the first of the "modern" Hawaiians made landfall on Hawaii, they found people already there. Very little is known of them, other than they were shorter/smaller than the moderns. They were quickly enslaved & eliminated.

 

I wouldn't tell my native Hawaian friends that they were eliminated they may not like it and they are not tiny

 

 

This comment smacks of racism. What makes you think that the "moderns" were Europeans and not the existing native Hawaiians?

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but If I understand longy correctly, it is the people populating the islands before the current native Hawaiians who were enslaved & eliminated.

 

 

From what I have read in old books the men and old ladies were eliminated and the children were kept for servants while the girls were used for other purposes which resulted in the creation of the new native hawaian. There is nothing racist in any of these comments

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe a little OT but I have to point out that Columbus may be getting dissed a little too much in terms of how well he navigated and prepared for his famous voyage. There is good evidence that he carried Johan Muller's ephemeris which would make it easy to determine latitude. During his voyage there were conjunctions which allowed him to easily stay on 42N. His journal (or at least the best transcription of a copy we have) indicates several longer stops than necessary during conjunctions that would allow Columbus to easily observe them. There is also good evidence Columbus had contact with the King of Norway and was aware of earlier Viking voyages to the Americas.

 

I would point out that even today there is no agreement on just where Columbus landed even with a transcription of a copy of his log. It would seem none of the early voyages in the Pacific have even the scraps of evidence folks studying Columbus have. Given how much speculation/argument there is about the first Columbus landfall I have to say I am taking a lot of what folks here are saying with a grain of salt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

When the first of the "modern" Hawaiians made landfall on Hawaii, they found people already there. Very little is known of them, other than they were shorter/smaller than the moderns. They were quickly enslaved & eliminated.

I wouldn't tell my native Hawaian friends that they were eliminated they may not like it and they are not tiny

 

Why do you feel the need to continually post ignorant nonsense pulled from your ass on subjects that you clearly know nothing about?

 

If, as you claim, you have actually read (and understood) a single book on the subject, you would likely have come across the term "Menehune'.

 

This comment smacks of racism. What makes you think that the "moderns" were Europeans and not the existing native Hawaiians?

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but If I understand longy correctly, it is the people populating the islands before the current native Hawaiians who were enslaved & eliminated.

 

From what I have read in old books the men and old ladies were eliminated and the children were kept for servants while the girls were used for other purposes which resulted in the creation of the new native hawaian. There is nothing racist in any of these comments

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamie Morton is the NZ Herald's science reporter

 

Skeletons reveal ancestors of Maori

5:00 AM Tuesday Oct 4, 2016
SCCZEN_A_210916SPLCOX_620x310.jpgMassey University computational biologist Professor Murray Cox is part of a team of international scientists who have shed new light on the ancient movements of early man. Photo / Supplied

 

Scientists have revealed intriguing new insights into the earliest ancestors of Maori, confirming that the first people to settle in the Pacific were from Asian farming groups.

The revelations, published today in Nature and co-authored by Massey University computational biologist Professor Murray Cox, may hold the key to future health improvements for Maori and Pasifika populations.

The research is the first to sequence ancient DNA from 3000-year-old skeletons to identify who were the first people to reach the Pacific Islands.

By examining skeletal remains from the first people to settle in Vanuatu and Tonga, the research was able to put a 40-year-debate to rest, showing the ancient settlers had little to no Papuan ancestry, contrary to what had previously been suggested.

This proved that the first people to reach remote Oceania were from Asian farming groups, with later movements bringing Papuan genes into the region.

Before this work, no ancient genomic DNA had ever been obtained from any tropical region, including the Pacific. This resulted in two opposing scenarios to explain why Maori and Pasifika have Papuan and Asian ancestry - the other stating that farming groups moving out of Asia mixed with Papuans near New Guinea and created a mixed group with both ancestries and the mixed group settling in the Pacific.

"This paper gives us the first basic picture of the genomic make-up of Pacific Islanders," Cox said. "Unlike European New Zealanders, where we can leverage off research done in the UK and US, we knew very little about the genomes of Pasifika and Maori."

Otago University anthropologist Professor Lisa Matisoo-Smith said the findings were very exciting and showed how difficult it was to model population histories based on modern population sampling alone.

Ancient insights

• The study examined ancient DNA from three individuals who were among the earliest to settle in Vanuatu up to 3100 years ago and one who was among the earliest to settle in Tonga up to 2700 years ago.

• The Vanuatu skeletal samples were extracted from a 3000-year-old burial site, where 60 skeletons, whose skulls had been taken away by mourners, were discovered by construction workers on Efate Island in 2003.

• The Tongan skeletal samples, found at a site on Tongatapu Island, were the oldest securely dated skeletal assemblage from Polynesia around 2500 years ago. The data was then compared to DNA samples from 356 present-day humans from 38 Southeast Asian and Oceanian populations.

- NZ Herald

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11721849

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

 

Jamie Morton is the NZ Herald's science reporter

 

Skeletons reveal ancestors of Maori

5:00 AM Tuesday Oct 4, 2016
SCCZEN_A_210916SPLCOX_620x310.jpgMassey University computational biologist Professor Murray Cox is part of a team of international scientists who have shed new light on the ancient movements of early man. Photo / Supplied

 

Scientists have revealed intriguing new insights into the earliest ancestors of Maori, confirming that the first people to settle in the Pacific were from Asian farming groups.

The revelations, published today in Nature and co-authored by Massey University computational biologist Professor Murray Cox, may hold the key to future health improvements for Maori and Pasifika populations.

The research is the first to sequence ancient DNA from 3000-year-old skeletons to identify who were the first people to reach the Pacific Islands.

By examining skeletal remains from the first people to settle in Vanuatu and Tonga, the research was able to put a 40-year-debate to rest, showing the ancient settlers had little to no Papuan ancestry, contrary to what had previously been suggested.

This proved that the first people to reach remote Oceania were from Asian farming groups, with later movements bringing Papuan genes into the region.

Before this work, no ancient genomic DNA had ever been obtained from any tropical region, including the Pacific. This resulted in two opposing scenarios to explain why Maori and Pasifika have Papuan and Asian ancestry - the other stating that farming groups moving out of Asia mixed with Papuans near New Guinea and created a mixed group with both ancestries and the mixed group settling in the Pacific.

"This paper gives us the first basic picture of the genomic make-up of Pacific Islanders," Cox said. "Unlike European New Zealanders, where we can leverage off research done in the UK and US, we knew very little about the genomes of Pasifika and Maori."

Otago University anthropologist Professor Lisa Matisoo-Smith said the findings were very exciting and showed how difficult it was to model population histories based on modern population sampling alone.

Ancient insights

• The study examined ancient DNA from three individuals who were among the earliest to settle in Vanuatu up to 3100 years ago and one who was among the earliest to settle in Tonga up to 2700 years ago.

• The Vanuatu skeletal samples were extracted from a 3000-year-old burial site, where 60 skeletons, whose skulls had been taken away by mourners, were discovered by construction workers on Efate Island in 2003.

• The Tongan skeletal samples, found at a site on Tongatapu Island, were the oldest securely dated skeletal assemblage from Polynesia around 2500 years ago. The data was then compared to DNA samples from 356 present-day humans from 38 Southeast Asian and Oceanian populations.

- NZ Herald

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11721849

 

 

 

 

Why not follow similarities in language to help prove your theory ? From the original native inhabitants of Taiwan to New Guinea and Pacific Islands,the languages are broadly similar e.g. the word for milk is 'susu' across the region.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 6 months later...

From a non-Māori Maui to Spanish shipwrecks: Who is Noel Hilliam?

Noel Hilliam (Facebook) northland maori european new zealand historyNoel Hilliam (Facebook)

Northland man Noel Hilliam has caught media attention again this week for new claims about finding human remains that pre-date Māori.

He has been criticised since for alleged grave-robbing, and his claims of humans in Aotearoa before Māori have been substantially rubbished by qualified archaeologists, notably in a thorough article published by Vice.

It's not the first time Mr Hilliam, a dairy farmer and founder of Dargaville's museum, has been in the news:

  • In 1982 he reported seeing a wreck of a Spanish ship on Bayly's Beach, but it was never found.
  • In 1998 elders from Te Uri o Hau banned visits to all sacred Māori areas in the Kaipara after Mr Hilliam visited without permission, and claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village.He said the site belonged to a group of people who were driven out by Māori about 600 years ago, but he would not say where exactly the site was.
  • In 2000, Mr Hilliam pulled out of the Historic Places Trust's Northland board because he was frustrated with its lack of inquiry into pre-Māori people, NZPA reported.
  • In 2004, Mr Hilliam helped excavate a shipwreck west of Dargaville - something he'd been looking for for 30 years. It had last emerged from the sand in 1973 and prior to that in 1909. A number of items were salvaged from the site including an anchor chain and a 1.5m cannon.
  • In 2009, it was posited Spanish sailors arrived in New Zealand more than a century before Abel Tasman. A researcher looked into the claims based on Mr Hilliam's belief a Spanish ship visited the country in the 16th century and sank. He says 22 of the 53 crew came from Aranga in Spain - the same name as the area in Northland near where the wreck was spotted. The main street in that town was called 'Rua Tui' which is also a Māori name.
  • In 2012, Mr Hilliam co-authored a book called To the End of the Earth in which it claimed famed Māori demi-god Maui wasn't Polynesian, but an ancient Egyptian navigator.

Newshub.

 

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/05/from-a-non-maori-maui-to-spanish-shipwrecks-who-is-noel-hilliam.html#.WSEs4x_SXhg.facebook

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did the Spanish or Chinese visit New Zealand before Polynesians?

by Matthew Wright / 24 June, 2016

 

by Matthew Wright / 24 June, 2016
 

SHARE

  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
Kennett Watkins’ painting of the arrival of Polynesian sailors shows double canoes with lateen sails of woven mat. Photo/Getty Images

Kennett Watkins’ painting of the arrival of Polynesian sailors shows double canoes with lateen sails of woven mat. Photo/Getty Images

RelatedArticlesModule - New Zealand settlement

Some claim that Europeans and Chinese beat Tasman and even Polynesians to these shores. The debate has again erupted, but where’s the evidence?

The idea that Europeans might have found these islands before Abel Tasman’s ill-starred encounter with Ngati Tumatakokiri in 1642 has haunted us for generations. It remains unproven, yet tantalisingly plausible, because of the way it flits and darts, shadow-like, on the edges of our knowledge and imagination.

The debate resurfaced last month when online government encyclopedia Te Ara added to its bibliography a book that proposes the possibility of pre-Tasman Spanish and Portuguese visitors. That book – Conquistador Puzzle Trail by Winston Cowie – argues that both Iberian nations visited New Zealand in the 16th century.

http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/history/did-the-spanish-or-chinese-visit-new-zealand-before-polynesians/

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry I'm starting to think that maybe you are as lost as they all were in their canoes ...but your the one with the GPS...I'm confused...some sheep speak Spanish in NZ and some only Cantonese...and then some sheep speak both. Very weird....like who taught them things like  Rugby and and to pray on the alter of Grant Dalton, or to sit at home, watch TV  and get paid? I detect holes in your theory.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Terry I'm starting to think that maybe you are as lost as they all were in their canoes ...but your the one with the GPS...I'm confused...some sheep speak Spanish in NZ and some only Cantonese...and then some sheep speak both. Very weird....like who taught them things like  Rugby and and to pray on the alter of Grant Dalton, or to sit at home, watch TV  and get paid? I detect holes in your theory.

 

It's not my theory Jack .. I just post the various ideas that people have.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...

600-year-old canoe found in New Zealand linked to Polynesian sailors

An ancient, 600-year-old wood canoe sports a sea turtle carved in raised relief. The canoe was discovered on South Island, New Zealand, and described in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. (Courtesy Tim Mackrell / The University of Auckland.)

Amina Khan Contact Reporter

An ancient canoe with a sea turtle carving survives 600 years on New Zealand

The rest of the story is here ..

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-canoe-polynesian-new-zealand-migration-20140929-story.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...

Polynesian seafarers discovered America long before Europeans, says DNA study

New DNA analysis of sweet potatoes, which were first cultivated in the Americas, is the key.

Polynesian seafarers

The migration routes of Polynesian seafarers have become more clear — and all thanks to the sweet potato. (Photo: John Webber/Wikimedia Commons)

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/polynesian-seafarers-discovered-america-long-before

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2016 at 8:41 AM, Terry Hollis said:

The Polynesians located every habitable island in the Pacific Ocean about 1,000 years before the Europeans .. They had no charts and no writing but their methods have survived until this day.

 

 

 

 

Ku Holo Mau

 

 

On March 5th, 2007, Hokule'a and Alingano Maisu - two Ha