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Gopros illegal?


PinkSpinnaker

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Someone told me at an event like laser nationals it is illegal to use a gopro or anything of the sort. I do not think this Is this true, is it because of them being used in a protest?

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Some classes have class rules restricting or prohibiting some or all electronic equipment. If a class has a blanket ban on any electronic equipment then that would include cameras. So you need to look at individual class rules and maybe sailing instructions. Can't imagine it would have anything to do with protests. A blanket ban is probably more to do with it being easier to prohibit everything that write complicated rules with lots of exceptions.

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WAG, maybe wrt Lasers they were thinking of: Laser Class Assn rule 22:

 

[a] One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited (see exception in part d).

Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions.

[c] Timing devices are permitted.

[d] A timing device that includes an electronic compass is permitted as long as it is worn on the wrist.

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Some classes have class rules restricting or prohibiting some or all electronic equipment.

 

Yes, the great majority of dinghy and other small-boat classes in fact, in general including some "what is not explicitly allowed is prohibited" clause.

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One of those situations where rules need to catch up with reality.

 

I'm not certain I agree. Once some sailors start to use Go-Pro footage in protests, everyone is going to feel they need theirs too. Unless you are a Go-Pro shareholder, I don't think that would be a good development.

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The rule is about eliminating electronics that may aid performance, such as gps.

 

Because the committees don't want to deal with per boat inspection, the approach I'd to eliminate everything.

 

This is becoming a major problem in many classes and isn't a case where the rules need to catch up. I would expect the class will change the rule to preclude even watches once someone with a watch gps is caught at the international level. There's just no other reasonable way to prevent cheating and the class wants to be about sailing not electronics.

 

And if you think that no one will build complex devices that look like gopro cameras, think again.

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One of those situations where rules need to catch up with reality.

 

I'm not certain I agree. Once some sailors start to use Go-Pro footage in protests, everyone is going to feel they need theirs too. Unless you are a Go-Pro shareholder, I don't think that would be a good development.

 

 

IME, generally video footage brings very little to a protest. You can rarely see overlaps, or truly judge distances or see enough of what's happening on the other boat to determine speed of reaction.

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Outlawing GoPro's may be a good idea, and the rules clearly ban them as written. But the rule certainly wasn't written with the intent to prohibit cameras. It is a legacy prohibition that was drafted to cover as much as possible, but now probably needs to be looked at again.

 

As an example, in a lot of small dinghy classes the rules prohibiting electronics ALSO prohibits PLB's, handheld vhf's, or anything else that could be used to call for assistance if the skipper is in trouble. Now many dinghy classes don't carry them and thanks to crash boats they would rarely be needed anyway. But if something did happen why would a class want to have prohibited a piece of safety gear?

 

There are better ways to prohibit electronics that give an actual advantage than just outlawing everything.

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Are they legal while racing? That's a good question? Take the J24 for example. "Closed" class rules and electronic cameras are not mentioned as permissible optional equipment, so are the illegal? Several in our local fleet use them. One even tried to include footage as part of their testimony in a protest hearing. No one ever questioned the leagality of using them during racing.

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Are they legal while racing? That's a good question? Take the J24 for example. "Closed" class rules and electronic cameras are not mentioned as permissible optional equipment, so are the illegal? Several in our local fleet use them. One even tried to include footage as part of their testimony in a protest hearing. No one ever questioned the leagality of using them during racing.

 

Good question? I don't think so. J24 class rules say:

 

PLEASE REMEMBER: THESE RULES ARE CLOSED CLASS RULES WHERE IF IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU MAY – THEN YOU SHALL NOT.

 

So you are allowed

 

(4) Electronic devices to record measure and calculate speed or speed over ground, distance, water depth, distance to a fixed point or line and time. Such devices shall not have charting capabilities.

 

(1) Electronic or mechanical timing devices.

 

(14) Handheld VHF radio.

(15) Portable music/radio entertainment system.

 

and

 

(B) NOT FOR USE WHILE RACING

(1) Mobile Telephone.

(2) Navigation devices with charting capabilities.

 

Where exactly does it say you are allowed something like a Go-Pro?

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I'll forward this question to a committee member I know. My take is they are illegal, and so is using a camera, in particular the one in your phone. Warning to all you facebookers... When you post the great photos you took while racing, you may be setting the boat you were on up for a DSQ. Ouch.

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WAG, maybe wrt Lasers they were thinking of: Laser Class Assn rule 22:

 

[a] One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited (see exception in part d).

Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions.

[c] Timing devices are permitted.

[d] A timing device that includes an electronic compass is permitted as long as it is worn on the wrist.

 

 

 

...umm,errr,, oops! ......I used to routinely wear a pocket VHF in dinghies :huh:

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WAG, maybe wrt Lasers they were thinking of: Laser Class Assn rule 22: [a] One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited (see exception in part d). Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions.[c] Timing devices are permitted.[d] A timing device that includes an electronic compass is permitted as long as it is worn on the wrist.

...umm,errr,, oops! ......I used to routinely wear a pocket VHF in dinghies :huh:

Yup, and in many classes you would be subject to a DSQ for doing so. As stupid as I think outlawing vhf's is, the rule equally applies to a transmit only device like an PLB. What really happens of course is that everyone forgets that they are carrying something like this, then some dick head protests everyone above him that is carrying one and wins a regatta in the protest room.

 

By any reasonable interpretation the electronic cigarette I carry would also end with a DSQ... Why a class should outlaw it I have no idea however.

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Of course there is also the rule "Thou shalt not be an arsehole."

Closed rules like J24 class rules do not specifically say you may be an asshole, so therefore you shall not. Ummm.
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Stand up at the competitors meeting and ask, "will anybody protest if I hang a camera on my boat?? I promise not to allow the video to be used for anything that could impact the regatta."

 

If no one responds then but changes his mind later, it is a gross breach if good sportsmanship.

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Stand up at the competitors meeting and ask, "will anybody protest if I hang a camera on my boat?? I promise not to allow the video to be used for anything that could impact the regatta."

If no one responds then but changes his mind later, it is a gross breach if good sportsmanship.

So you are advocating knowingly and intentionally violating the class rules ahead of the regatta? They you are announcing that you are violating the class rules to the entire skippers meeting?

 

Look I get that the rules are stupid, and I would never protest someone for bringing a camera because it's a dick move, but what you suggest is also a violation of the sportsmanship rules. The proper way to handle this is to change the rules, not break them.

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I"m waiting for bigger offshore boats to start using drones to go look for breeze on the lighter air offshore races. I bet it's coming, if not already being done. I don't think it qualifies as 'outside assistance' because it meets the test of being 'reasonably available to all participants' (don't recall the exact wording), I guess in the same way that B&G wind machine on top of your mast is, right ?

 

Anyone seeing this being done in racing ?

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I"m waiting for bigger offshore boats to start using drones to go look for breeze on the lighter air offshore races. I bet it's coming, if not already being done. I don't think it qualifies as 'outside assistance' because it meets the test of being 'reasonably available to all participants' (don't recall the exact wording), I guess in the same way that B&G wind machine on top of your mast is, right ?

 

Anyone seeing this being done in racing ?

They flew some drones in the last VOR... I think it is outside assistance but it is mootable. Doesn't bother me if the SA's allow for it. I'd kinda hate for it to become allowed by default.

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in a boat like the laser it is also a matter of tangling. I'd hate for my main sheet to get caught on someone's go pro mounted to the bow or whatever when it otherwise may have missed completely or at least brushed off. if everyone had one it would be different. at a major event. beer can and frostbite racing, you'd have to have a big stick up your ass to care .

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Last time I looked the etchells had a specific ruling saying that a GoPro was not equipment provided for in the rules.

That is because they fear that some of those videos might make there way onto Youtube and showing a bunch of fat old men sailing salad bowls at 5 knots will not help promote the class.

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WAG, maybe wrt Lasers they were thinking of: Laser Class Assn rule 22: [a] One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited (see exception in part d). Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions.[c] Timing devices are permitted.[d] A timing device that includes an electronic compass is permitted as long as it is worn on the wrist.

...umm,errr,, oops! ......I used to routinely wear a pocket VHF in dinghies :huh:
Yup, and in many classes you would be subject to a DSQ for doing so. As stupid as I think outlawing vhf's is, the rule equally applies to a transmit only device like an PLB. What really happens of course is that everyone forgets that they are carrying something like this, then some dick head protests everyone above him that is carrying one and wins a regatta in the protest room.

 

By any reasonable interpretation the electronic cigarette I carry would also end with a DSQ... Why a class should outlaw it I have no idea however.

 

 

 

Does anyone know of a regatta where this has actually happened?

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Stand up at the competitors meeting and ask, "will anybody protest if I hang a camera on my boat?? I promise not to allow the video to be used for anything that could impact the regatta."

If no one responds then but changes his mind later, it is a gross breach if good sportsmanship.

So you are advocating knowingly and intentionally violating the class rules ahead of the regatta? They you are announcing that you are violating the class rules to the entire skippers meeting?

 

Look I get that the rules are stupid, and I would never protest someone for bringing a camera because it's a dick move, but what you suggest is also a violation of the sportsmanship rules. The proper way to handle this is to change the rules, not break them.

 

I doubt it would be possible to find a more asinine interpretation of my suggested solution.

 

BEFORE. A game begins is the perfect time to ask about trying out a new rule.

I suggested a competitor ask Every competitor to consider and approve a particular modification of the rules for the duration of an event.

 

That competitor could also make the request earlier so it could be written into the sailing instructions.

 

Certainly it could not possibly be unsportsmanlike to ask permission from EVERYONE, and back off if ONE objects.

The rules are of, by, and for the players. It is OUR GAME!!

 

Your entirely asinine concept that the person who suggests a change in the rules is somehow unsportsmanlike is so mightily ignorant I found it hard to dignify your stupidity with a response

 

Where do idiots like you come from???

 

You have to mAke everything into a fight. Solutions suck.

 

Get a life!!!

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Stand up at the competitors meeting and ask, "will anybody protest if I hang a camera on my boat?? I promise not to allow the video to be used for anything that could impact the regatta."

If no one responds then but changes his mind later, it is a gross breach if good sportsmanship.

So you are advocating knowingly and intentionally violating the class rules ahead of the regatta? They you are announcing that you are violating the class rules to the entire skippers meeting?

 

Look I get that the rules are stupid, and I would never protest someone for bringing a camera because it's a dick move, but what you suggest is also a violation of the sportsmanship rules. The proper way to handle this is to change the rules, not break them.

 

I doubt it would be possible to find a more asinine interpretation of my suggested solution.

 

BEFORE. A game begins is the perfect time to ask about trying out a new rule.

I suggested a competitor ask Every competitor to consider and approve a particular modification of the rules for the duration of an event.

 

That competitor could also make the request earlier so it could be written into the sailing instructions.

 

Certainly it could not possibly be unsportsmanlike to ask permission from EVERYONE, and back off if ONE objects.

The rules are of, by, and for the players. It is OUR GAME!!

 

Your entirely asinine concept that the person who suggests a change in the rules is somehow unsportsmanlike is so mightily ignorant I found it hard to dignify your stupidity with a response

 

Where do idiots like you come from???

 

You have to mAke everything into a fight. Solutions suck.

 

Get a life!!!

 

 

What you originally suggested comes over as a kind of 'I'm planning to break a rule are there any pathetic idiots in the room who have a different point of view on this and have the guts to stand up and take all the crap I'm going to throw at them if they say that they would prefer it if I did't break the rule.

 

You are totally correct that the proper way to do this is to say in advance that you would like a change in the SI's to allow go pros. But thats not what you said at first and what you were not unreasonably corrected on.

 

Oh and feel free to rant back at this, but in doing so you kind of prove the point wrt to bullying.

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The skippers' meeting cannot change the rules and such feedback isn't binding. If someone asks such a question, the prudent thing to do would tell them "sure" and then protest if they finish well.

I consider your suggestion a breach of sportsmanship .... Not quite gross, but people who think like you are suggesting we should are the sort of folks who significantly lower the quality of the community

 

The suggestion in The previous post that someone asking for permission would necessarily do so in a bullying manner also exhibits a lower opinion of sailors than I would like to hold.here is how I would present it if I did so at a committee meeting:

 

"Hey guys! I would like to speak with all of you for a minute and get some feedback. I have a go pro and I'd love to hang it on the boat for the weekend but the rules are pretty clear that we can't carry an electronic device.

I don't think a camera recording the sailing is among the devices the rule makers intended to ban but that is my interpretation.

The rule does not mention exceptions.

There is a cheat case saying anything electronic is cheating....period.

 

I'm standing here before all of you and asking if anyone in any way shape or form uncomfortable with the idea that I go ahead and stick the go Pro on the boat all weekend and, if I can manage to do so, show the videos Saturday night and put them up online so people can watch them all week.

Now let me be very very clear on this. If any of you is in anyway shape or form uncomfortable I don't want to do it. If you are uncomfortable with my actions breaking a rule we may not have the right to suspend, please say so. If you're willing, please tell me why because I'd like to learn what it is that makes other people uncomfortable. I'm not the greatest social person on the planet and I certainly do not read minds.

Once again, here is my proposal,

if you guys are willing to let me do it , And we have a gentleman's agreement that absolutely no one is going to toss me out because I have this electronic on the boat, I will sail with a camera

Thectrcordings absolutely will not be available for use in anything like a protest because "officially" it isn't really allowed to be on my boat.

I am

Not interested in opening that can of worms.

 

My sales pitch?? Two things:

The extra weight and mere presence of the camera will slightly slow my boat and mess with my personal focus. I cannot imagine how it could improve my performance.

And

If it works out decently, I will show some video tonight.

 

But, I cannot do it if any one of you is the slightest bit uncomfortable with my plan.

I absolutely do not want to push anybody into anything.

One more time

If you are comfortable with ignoring the electronics rule so I can carry a camera today, please raise your hand.

 

If each of you does not raise a hand I am not doing it.

 

Ok I see every person with a hand raised.

If any of you decide to change your mind, please let me know and I will shut it off and drop it off at a committee boat as soon as I can do so without impacting anyone's race. "

 

 

I sure hope that presentation isn't bullying. If it is, I suck

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Of course there is also the rule "Thou shalt not be an arsehole."

Closed rules like J24 class rules do not specifically say you may be an asshole, so therefore you shall not. Ummm.

 

If the J24 had such a rule, there would be a lot of DSQs and protests at every regattas...

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So what will you suggest when someone at the laser or j24 worlds is found to have a gps-based start line and layline computer housed in a gopro housing is caught?

 

Will you just stand there dumb founded asking for the videos?

 

Good grief!

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Is this gopro going to be aimed at your face for the entire race so you can take the worlds longest sailing selfie?

 

I'd have no problem with that. As long as you wave and say "Hi Mom!" every two minutes.

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Last time I looked the etchells had a specific ruling saying that a GoPro was not equipment provided for in the rules.

 

That is because they fear that some of those videos might make there way onto Youtube and showing a bunch of fat old men sailing salad bowls at 5 knots will not help promote the class.

They are legal now - C.5.1(B)(6).

 

Obviously more popular with the 4 up boy band whippets than the three up ex front rowers set, for which the YouTube viewing public has reason to be thankful.

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The Etchells weight limit is just such a ridiculous number. Should go up or down 40 kg, to either three or four normal sized people. Current 95 or 71 kg average is crazy.

No reason to have 4 people on an Etchells. How about no weight limit, just a crew limit. The Etchells should be raced with 3 on board.

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The Etchells weight limit is just such a ridiculous number. Should go up or down 40 kg, to either three or four normal sized people. Current 95 or 71 kg average is crazy.

 

No reason to have 4 people on an Etchells. How about no weight limit, just a crew limit. The Etchells should be raced with 3 on board.

 

That would just make the whole crew even fatter. Heavy isn't necessarily fast, but light is definitely slow.

http://etchells.org/documents/crewweight.pdf

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Pretty simple rule, if you are not tall you need to be four.

Three tall guys beat three short guys at same weight.

Three tall guys and four short light guys, nothing in that.

The class survey ignored height.

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