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1 hour ago, IStream said:

They aren't creating more idiots, just inspiring existing idiots to act. It's Darwinian selection for idiots' disposable income while the rest of us munch popcorn and laugh.

I am sure that while some prehistoric man was experimenting with round objects to design what was to become later the wheel there were plenty of fools to tell him that his invention will never ever surpass the convenience of a donkey.

I don't think I've ever motored more than 100 NM (can't remember motoring a full English channel crossing, even on a return one), I probably motor more than 30NM once a year maxi. I hate Diesel fumes, the engine compartment smell and the lack of reliability of the thing inside. So I am looking at their work with interest, give me one day an affordable electric setup with 50NM range and I won't even consider the diesel, especially if I can recharge while sailing. I will even give myself the right to feel smug for not contributing to greenhouse gas emissions while I am sailing.

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

We now have almost perfect weather forecasts so there is no reason to diligently motor for 300 miles into a headwind. If you are a true traveller then you sit and wait for it to pass through...

...Having said all that - well done you chaps for being so passionate about infernal combustion engines -

as far as I am concerned the time when they are a novelty rather than the norm cannot come soon enough..

Dylan you maybe have forgotton but it is "broad church" here.

Your 300 miles pottering along a coastline with weather forecasts every hour and visting a quaint pub every night is another mans 300 miles trying to get through the Doldrums where forecasts are non existent and spending a month at sea and even after that arriving somewhere where the locals only learnt how to boil water last week.

Horses for courses.

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

I agree with most of what you say -

Now that I have been using an electric outboard for a year and an electric bike for a year I agree that making passionately worded comparisons  between an rapidly  replenishable  tank of gas or diesel and a bunch of batteries and then condemning the batteries because you cannot get them to drive the boat for three hundred miles without stopping is a slightly odd comparison. 

If I had a £ for every time I am asked how far you can go on the bike or with the outboard I would have... oh I would say around £50.  The batteries are a game changer. The slower you go the further you go is the mantra so if it is range you are after then don't run electric power units at full blatt. 

My outboard will sove the dinghy along at 3 knots for 20 miles - but at 5.5 knots it will only do four miles.

I was given the outboard by a friend who said that it will change my relationship with the estuary on which I sail - and it has. When the noisy bastard Honda goes on you grit your teeth, crank the honda up to full blatt and aim to get the travelling over and done with as soon as you can. With the electric outboard you can take pleasure in an enjoyable 3 knots rather than experiencing a really noisy 5 knots with the Honda.

As for these people being Darwin award candidates.... sailing is safe and slow sailing is a wonderful thing - afterall if we were in a hurry then we would all be in mobos or macs.

We now have almost perfect weather forecasts so there is no reason to diligently motor for 300 miles into a headwind. If you are a true traveller then you sit and wait for it to pass through. I have been re-reading this book

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/the-cruise-of-the-kate/author/middleton-e-e/

 

he had a 20 footer and bloody long paddle. Here in the UK passage making is all about hitting tidal gates at the right time - so motoring for an hour or so to hit one is fairly normal. Poor old Middleton missed several tidal gates so if it was rough around north foreland he turned around and headed for shelter or just dropped the hook to wait for the tide to change.  These new battery voyagers can motor hard for five hours (if they want to)   before they run out of power.  The other strategy is to motorsail with the electric energy just adding a bit of a kick. My 22 footer with the outboard in the well fair whizzes along to windward if I add an extra 300 watts to the woer of the sails. I am amazed.

If I end up running the gas/diesel outboard / inboard for more than an hour then I regard that as a failure in passage planning.

Having said all that - well done you chaps for being so passionate about infernal combustion engines -

as far as I am concerned the time when they are a novelty rather than the norm cannot come soon enough.

noisy smelly powerful and soften reliable power units though they are. I love electric and intend to use more of it.

D

I think that people who choose electric love the challenge of it, on top of the other perks. Managing tidal gates, channels in reefs and other coastal hazards with electric is more interesting, and myself feel like cheating if I have to take down sails and use the propulsion. Running the beloved/dreaded Honda2000 is the punishment for poor planning or a welcomed annoyance if it took me to a safe spot or saved me a lot of trouble.

However working as skipper for charter boats I understand that I would not run a charter boat with electric. Horses for courses.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Dylan you maybe have forgotton but it is "broad church" here.

Your 300 miles pottering along a coastline with weather forecasts every hour and visting a quaint pub every night is another mans 300 miles trying to get through the Doldrums where forecasts are non existent and spending a month at sea and even after that arriving somewhere where the locals only learnt how to boil water last week.

Horses for courses.

Prudence and patience is what it takes to do ocean passages on electric propulsion. I don't think it is unsafe to sail long distances on electric. Many small boats with small diesel tanks just don't motor in the doldrums to save fuel for arrival.

Having a schedule, any shcedule, is what I found is the most difficult situation for electric, and short coastal passage, and to make it to the pub before it closes are one of those situations. Sadly I miss the beer most of the times because of electric propulsion, but my liver is thankful.

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I think you miss the point and certainly by reply think I know nothing about battery chemistry or marine LFP installations.

They are promoting LFP as the magic bullet to swap out a diesel auxillary for a barmix but worse one that wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and has to be tied to a charge power cord, all which you seem to support.

These idiots are "Influencers" and all they are doing is creating more idiots to support the "drop-in" LFP for LA replacement industry which should be driven out of town.

Hopefully the pending US ABYC Electrical Standards (which have a world wide adoption record) for LFP will do exactly that. 

 

I don't know what you know or don't know about battery chemistry or marine LFP installation. I could not care less. Even if they did not change charging source capacity they still benefit from LFP because of battery chemistry. Being able to run the motor when is 50%dod is something they could not do before, they had to go back to near full charge. So time between full charges improved by a big stretch.  They have a small monohull so solar will always be a limited option. A small portable gas generator is the only thing that could help them stay away from docks. Or being extremely thrifty.

I don't watch enough of their videos to know if they are promoting the LFP as the magic bullet to swap out a diesel auxiliary. It would be dishonest of them. That's why I don't believe it, but their videos are too boring for me to be willing to find out so I have to give you the benefit of doubt.  Users of electric propulsion who says it will replace diesel are dishonest or liers, or they got a damned good deal from manifacturers. When you use electric you know exactly what are your limitations or you will be losing your boat, and possibly your life. They had sailed quite a bit on EP, so it is possible they know what they are talking about.

What I support having the minimum power and range to solve complicated navigational issues for the 10 liters of gasoline per month it takes to keep my tank full. Electric is enough for what I am doing, and keeps me away from maintenance, replacing parts in tropical paradise, get my hands and the waters around me dirty.

Should I change what I do it may not make sense anymore, and ICE could be more appropriate. I don't want to convince anybody to go this way, as I understand there are other needs / values that people follow.

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2 minutes ago, Cuntyhunk said:

I don't watch enough of their videos to know if they are promoting the LFP as the magic bullet to swap out a diesel auxiliary. It would be dishonest of them.

They don't, that's what they say :

Quote

Many people have written in and commented that an electric motor is only good for day sailors who weren’t going very far each day, and that you need a reliable diesel engine for long distance cruising. But we feel like the opposite is true. Since we don’t have a dock to tie up to and charge our batteries each night, we rely on sailing to recharge our system. The longer we sail and the more sun we get, the more power we make. Because we don’t have a 9-5 to return to at the end of a fun weekend out on the boat, we have no schedules requiring that we make it back to the dock on time, no matter what the wind is doing. So, we feel that an electric motor, depending on your sailing style, can be adapted to any boat. But, you have to be willing to work around the one major draw back, range.

 

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I am sure that while some prehistoric man was experimenting with round objects to design what was to become later the wheel there were plenty of fools to tell him that his invention will never ever surpass the convenience of a donkey.

I don't think I've ever motored more than 100 NM (can't remember motoring a full English channel crossing, even on a return one), I probably motor more than 30NM once a year maxi. I hate Diesel fumes, the engine compartment smell and the lack of reliability of the thing inside. So I am looking at their work with interest, give me one day an affordable electric setup with 50NM range and I won't even consider the diesel, especially if I can recharge while sailing. I will even give myself the right to feel smug for not contributing to greenhouse gas emissions while I am sailing.

Yup, I'm a Luddite with an irrational hatred of batteries. That's why I spend all day designing high capacity lithium battery powered medical equipment. 

Getting back to what I actually said as opposed to your mischaracterization of my posts which, you seem to forget, are available for you to re-read up above, I don't have a problem with electric propulsion. I do have a problem with marginally designed electric propulsion systems. If the Uma folks are happy with the compromises they've made and never put themselves in a position to rely on their motor for more than 30 minutes at WOT, who am I to fault them? However, I would not be comfortable relying on it. 

Maybe now that they've got the coin to pay 100X more for their batteries than they did for their motor, they'll consider replacing it with one that won't burn up at an inopportune time and that has better than 80% efficiency.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Yup, I'm a Luddite with an irrational hatred of batteries. That's why I spend all day designing high capacity lithium battery powered medical equipment. 

Getting back to what I actually said as opposed to your mischaracterization of my posts which, you seem to forget, are available for you to re-read up above, I don't have a problem with electric propulsion.

No, you just called people with an interest in such a system idiots.

I don't think that you should ever rely on your engine to get yourself out of trouble, if you do so you're one floating rope/seaweed/plastic bag away from a major catastrophe. Much better to not sail to such places and to learn to get out of them under sail.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Yup, I'm a Luddite with an irrational hatred of batteries. That's why I spend all day designing high capacity lithium battery powered medical equipment. 

Getting back to what I actually said as opposed to your mischaracterization of my posts which, you seem to forget, are available for you to re-read up above, I don't have a problem with electric propulsion. I do have a problem with marginally designed electric propulsion systems. If the Uma folks are happy with the compromises they've made and never put themselves in a position to rely on their motor for more than 30 minutes at WOT, who am I to fault them? However, I would not be comfortable relying on it. 

Maybe now that they've got the coin to pay 100X more for their batteries than they did for their motor, they'll consider replacing it with one that won't burn up at an inopportune time and that has better than 80% efficiency.

Aww, well...when you put yourself out there in front of millions, there will be plenty of folks who will have a different opinion—-even a vehemently different opinion.  Uma folks are catching even more flak for their 2 gallon holding tank solution....

( might even cost them a hit on their Patreon numbers—or not....)

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Just now, Veeger said:

Aww, well...when you put yourself out there in front of millions, there will be plenty of folks who will have a different opinion—-even a vehemently different opinion.  Uma folks are catching even more flak for their 2 gallon holding tank solution....

( might even cost them a hit on their Patreon numbers—or not....)

I am surprised  they did not go compost. Maybe in fifty videos we will have a tour of their composted poo

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

Yup, I'm a Luddite with an irrational hatred of batteries. That's why I spend all day designing high capacity lithium battery powered medical equipment.

How dare you have an informed opinion!

I find it amusing how the scientist/engineer types who have to actually build stuff that works lean one way, and others - well.......

Take Dylan's contribution. He has an electric outboard. That's fine - at the end of the day he gets to take it home & put the battery on charge. Excellent use-case for an electric o/b. Hardly a comparison with a cruising sailboat with 12x100AH batteries to recharge. I'll probably get an electric o/b too because I don't like the noise of IC engines either, and the commute from my shoreline to my boat is maybe 400m. Not to mention I ran a 415V 3 phase power line down near my back gate years ago and need to use it for *something* (I was going to build another shed).

My issues are both the endurance *and* the recharge time. Both need to be addressed. They haven't been. As I said if you hop from marina to marina and plug into shore power, you've got it covered. Bloody expensive way to travel though.

Now try doing say a trip from where I live near Kettering to Strahan. Look at the density of the marinas available. Hell, look at the available ports. How do you feel about your 5 hours endurance and many days of recharge time now? Or even going up the relatively populated & civilised east coast of Tasmania. You'd better use your 5 hours of power very judiciously.

Personally I think mass conversion of sailboats to electric propulsion is a truly excellent thing. It's one sure-fire way to guarantee they'll all stay tightly coupled to their shore power teat and not clog up remote anchorages.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

No, you just called people with an interest in such a system idiots.

I don't think that you should ever rely on your engine to get yourself out of trouble, if you do so you're one floating rope/seaweed/plastic bag away from a major catastrophe. Much better to not sail to such places and to learn to get out of them under sail.

I realize that English isn't your first language but even so, you should be able to tell that I didn't actually call them idiots. They clearly understand their system design and its limitations and are comfortable living with them. I wouldn't have made the same choices but that's just me. There are idiots out there who may do something similar but without a corresponding understanding of what they're getting themselves into. 

When I drive a car, I try to keep my distance, anticipate problems well ahead of time, and avoid situations where I may have to stop suddenly. That doesn't mean I'd be wise to remove the brake calipers from three of my four wheels even if I use less than 25% of my car's stopping ability 99% of the time.

Enough pig wrestling for me. You've got your agenda and I'm clearly wasting my time with you.

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6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Now try doing say a trip from where I live near Kettering to Strahan. Look at the density of the marinas available. Hell, look at the available ports.

That's a wonderful shoreline..in an easterly.

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6 hours ago, IStream said:

I realize that English isn't your first language but even so, you should be able to tell that I didn't actually call them idiots. They clearly understand their system design and its limitations and are comfortable living with them. I wouldn't have made the same choices but that's just me. There are idiots out there who may do something similar but without a corresponding understanding of what they're getting themselves into. 

 

Jeeez, I didn't say that you called them idiots....

 

Quote

Enough pig wrestling for me. You've got your agenda and I'm clearly wasting my time with you.

Good, I am interested in discussing electric system and their limitations but I find the "can't be done brigade" boring. There are some people here with actual experience of electric propulsion and the only thing you seem interested in is shutting down the conversation.

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Personally I think mass conversion of sailboats to electric propulsion is a truly excellent thing. It's one sure-fire way to guarantee they'll all stay tightly coupled to their shore power teat and not clog up remote anchorages.

FKT

Don't worry, you are not going to see that.

Anchorages will still be full of cruisers upwind of you that start their diesel at 6pm and 6 am to charge their house bank before the sun kicks in. No revolution is going to be able to take what people care care the most for. Comforts.Wars are made over comforts.

Opinions come from things people are not comfortable with. Immigration, food of unknown provenance, people with cognitive deficits, and of course electric propulsion. It is hard to overcome these gut instincts and find merits, limits and realities about issues, when comfort is in the way.

Or is it a thing about influencers, that attracts heat?

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30 minutes ago, Cuntyhunk said:

Don't worry, you are not going to see that.

Anchorages will still be full of cruisers upwind of you that start their diesel at 6pm and 6 am to charge their house bank before the sun kicks in. No revolution is going to be able to take what people care care the most for. Comforts.Wars are made over comforts.

Opinions come from things people are not comfortable with. Immigration, food of unknown provenance, people with cognitive deficits, and of course electric propulsion. It is hard to overcome these gut instincts and find merits, limits and realities about issues, when comfort is in the way.

Or is it a thing about influencers, that attracts heat?

Before Tesla was a thing, I converted a 1974 VW Beetle to 100% battery electric drive. People told me "You can't do that."

I did it. I drove it all over the Washington DC/Baltimore region for 2 years and some months. It had a top speed of 70 mph and a range of 35-40 miles. I drove it every day.  It satisfied 90% of my driving needs. I fueled up my gasoline vehicle maybe once per month, sometimes less.  In two years, I put 23,000 miles on that car which is near the national average per year.  CNN asked to interview me twice, but I declined.

Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

EVW1.jpg

EVW.jpg

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42 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Influencers always attract heat.

As they should. Many would-be influencers are promoting things that could get people hurt or killed. Of course, nay-saying, Luddism, and knee-jerk get-off-my-lawn ranting isn't helpful but a clear-eyed analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of any given idea helps improve designs and may keep (some) people from getting into trouble. 

If someone criticizes one of my designs and my first reaction is defensive rather than rational, I often find after sleeping on it that I should probably take a second look. 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Before Tesla was a thing, I converted a 1974 VW Beetle to 100% battery electric drive. People told me "You can't do that."

I did it. I drove it all over the Washington DC/Baltimore region for 2 years and some months. It had a top speed of 70 mph and a range of 35-40 miles. I drove it every day.  It satisfied 90% of my driving needs. I fueled up my gasoline vehicle maybe once per month, sometimes less.  In two years, I put 23,000 miles on that car which is near the national average per year.  CNN asked to interview me twice, but I declined.

Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

EVW1.jpg

EVW.jpg

now that is what I call a gottem post

 

goodonyaajax!

 

but fek the steering on that sucker must be hard

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11 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

now that is what I call a gottem post

 

gppdpmyaajax!

 

but fek the steering on that sucker must be hard

Plus I think those are rear wheel drive.   I guess depends on electric motor weight. It may be balanced.  :)    I love it, Ajax!

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16 hours ago, Panoramix said:

No, you just called people with an interest in such a system idiots.

I don't think that you should ever rely on your engine to get yourself out of trouble, if you do so you're one floating rope/seaweed/plastic bag away from a major catastrophe. Much better to not sail to such places and to learn to get out of them under sail.

I remember as a teenager having to motor against a 5 knot current between two islands in the middle of the night just to get out the other side. Took us a few hours to get where we wanted to go, probably a couple km total distance. Good thing a plastic bag didn't take us out.

I get the romance of engineless cruising, short range electric in and out of the harbor...or even maybe extreme judicious use of a short range electric on a long range cruise...but I've found, in knocking around the Carribbean islands or even Great Lakes sailing, an engine with some decent range is an indispensable tool that I personally wouldn't do without. Wether it be a bit of motoring to get to a lay line, motor sailing to get pointing a little higher and maintain speed, motoring straight upwind through a narrow passage, or motoring out of doldrums, it all adds up and is a welcome auxiliary to logical passagemaking under sail. 

These days most of my sailing is on L Ontario. The shortest passage (that I usually take) is about 47 km or about 4 1/2 hrs on a good days sail. When you count in and out of the Harbor at both the beginning and end of your passage, plus the very real chance of getting stuck in the middle of the lake with no wind, your starting to cut things a little fine w typical electric range. My neighbor has an electric install on his Nonsuch 26 w 50 km range. As much as I want to like the idea, it just severely limits what I could or could not contemplate re a passage. When you get to longer passages, avoiding weather with the iron genny is part of the game. That old calm before the storm thing, where your sails won't really help. 

And as for the 'learn to get out of them under sail', I've had to sail off a lee shore with a busted engine more than once, so yeah I look at the engine as an auxiliary to sail power not the other way around.

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Isn't that the second of the VLogger types to get lithium batteries? Both Battle Born? I guess that explains the explosion of LifePO4 threads on other forums.

I DIY'ed my own LifePO4 bank and I am super weary of those battle born batteries - the charge voltage seems really too high according to the manual and the integral BMS doesn't have any instructions.

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35 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

now that is what I call a gottem post

 

goodonyaajax!

 

but fek the steering on that sucker must be hard

Dylan,

The steering was fine, it was the brakes!

That car was grossly overloaded. I beefed it up with Baja Bug suspension parts but it still had drum brakes on all 4 wheels. It was so heavy that I had to plan my stops "yesterday."  I always left plenty of room in front of me in case some idiot decided to stop short. If I had kept it longer, I would have upgraded to disc brakes for more safety.

The car was balanced just fine. There were batteries in the boot, batteries in the engine compartment and batteries in the "parcel area" behind the back seats. I used a DC-DC convertor to step down the traction pack voltage to 13 volts to drive the headlights and wipers.  The batteries were 8v which gave me a reasonable combination of speed and range.

Maintenance consisted of topping off the water in the batteries every month or two.

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30 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Dylan,

The steering was fine, it was the brakes!

That car was grossly overloaded. I beefed it up with Baja Bug suspension parts but it still had drum brakes on all 4 wheels. It was so heavy that I had to plan my stops "yesterday."  I always left plenty of room in front of me in case some idiot decided to stop short. If I had kept it longer, I would have upgraded to disc brakes for more safety.

The car was balanced just fine. There were batteries in the boot, batteries in the engine compartment and batteries in the "parcel area" behind the back seats. I used a DC-DC convertor to step down the traction pack voltage to 13 volts to drive the headlights and wipers.  The batteries were 8v which gave me a reasonable combination of speed and range.

Maintenance consisted of topping off the water in the batteries every month or two.

1

I'm in awe. Can you remember how many AH the bank was?

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

II get the romance of engineless cruising, short range electric in and out of the harbor...or even maybe extreme judicious use of a short range electric on a long range cruise...but I've found, in knocking around the Carribbean islands or even Great Lakes sailing, an engine with some decent range is an indispensable tool that I personally wouldn't do without. Wether it be a bit of motoring to get to a lay line, motor sailing to get pointing a little higher and maintain speed, motoring straight upwind through a narrow passage, or motoring out of doldrums, it all adds up and is a welcome auxiliary to logical passagemaking under sail. 

 

In my youth (early 80s) my family spent summers sailing a small boat that was fitted with a petrol outboard which would gobble up its tank in a few hours and was useless as soon as the sea was too choppy. My dad wasn't careless, he was just sailing cautiously within the capabilities of his boat. We never had a close call, the sketchier situations were due to lack of confidence in our position in foggy situations, we never hit a rock or even a sandbank, and our lack of range wasn't an issue. And it isn't like our sailing grounds were easy tide range is up to 13m (43 feet) currents of 2 knots are common and unavoidable and it can become as high at 10 knots in one place.

Bearing this past experience in mind, I think that an electric motor with a range of 50NM as long as I can recharge it with the propeller would be comfortable for me, a range of 5NM is the minimum I would consider safe but that would bring in a lot of constraints in the way I sail the boat and probably some kedging.

I don't know if I am particularly unlucky but I think that you guys idealise diesel engines and their supposed reliability. I had to scull out of the lock of this tidal power station, I had to short tack into St Peter Port in Guernsey - some applauded at my berthing under sail but really they shouldn't, it was just a narrowly avoided catastrophe and I am still not sure how I managed to make it - and I also spent one tide bobbing up and down just offshore of St Malo waiting for some wind (there is a cross current so not a good idea to go in without a bit of speed) ; all these adventures were courtesy of moody diesel engines.

I think I can manage better depleting batteries than clogged up cooling circuits, bad diesel and air that seem to appear for no reason in the fuel lines.

Nevertheless, it is true that at the moment range of electric systems is on the very short end of the spectrum, good batteries are expensive and you need to be a bit adventurous to go electric. It might change in a few years, I am amazed how much better electric cars are now than 10 years ago. I am still just in my 40s, I hope that one day I will sail a boat with an electric motor so I am watching developments carefully.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Before Tesla was a thing, I converted a 1974 VW Beetle to 100% battery electric drive. People told me "You can't do that."

I did it. I drove it all over the Washington DC/Baltimore region for 2 years and some months. It had a top speed of 70 mph and a range of 35-40 miles. I drove it every day.  It satisfied 90% of my driving needs. I fueled up my gasoline vehicle maybe once per month, sometimes less.  In two years, I put 23,000 miles on that car which is near the national average per year.  CNN asked to interview me twice, but I declined.

Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

EVW1.jpg

EVW.jpg

Ever figure out how much a full charge cost in the electric bill?

- Stumbling

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4 hours ago, fufkin said:

 

I get the romance of engineless cruising, short range electric in and out of the harbor...or even maybe extreme judicious use of a short range electric on a long range cruise...but I've found, in knocking around the Carribbean islands or even Great Lakes sailing, an engine with some decent range is an indispensable tool that I personally wouldn't do without. Wether it be a bit of motoring to get to a lay line, motor sailing to get pointing a little higher and maintain speed, motoring straight upwind through a narrow passage, or motoring out of doldrums, it all adds up and is a welcome auxiliary to logical passagemaking under sail. 

 

I am going on 4 years in the Caribbean without an engine on my 48fter. If you have a boat that points well and sails in light air and you actually really like sailing it's great. You have to pay a bit more attention and plan better but I don't see any limitations, especially in this part of the world where the wind always blows. I wouldn't go back, a fossil fuel free boat is a beautiful thing.

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40 minutes ago, Not Nice said:

I am going on 4 years in the Caribbean without an engine on my 48fter. If you have a boat that points well and sails in light air and you actually really like sailing it's great. You have to pay a bit more attention and plan better but I don't see any limitations, especially in this part of the world where the wind always blows. I wouldn't go back, a fossil fuel free boat is a beautiful thing.

Not Nice, I'm trying to remember, is your boat the yellow C&C w/o the bow pulpit? Glad to hear from someone like yourself enjoying a fossil fuel free lifestyle!! Didn't mean to sound like I was saying it couldn't/shouldn't be possible! 

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34 minutes ago, fufkin said:

Not Nice, I'm trying to remember, is your boat the yellow C&C w/o the bow pulpit? Glad to hear from someone like yourself enjoying a fossil fuel free lifestyle!! Didn't mean to sound like I was saying it couldn't/shouldn't be possible! 

Gray C&C with the yellow stripe w/o pulpit

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10 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

What boat do you have?

'75 C&C 48 custom

No shaft or strut helps a lot in light winds, as does the weight savings from not having an engine/trans. I turned the engine room into a battery/water maker room, helps keep the weight low and centered. Only source of power is solar and wind but looking at methanol fuel cell options going forward.

 

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Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

Some people still tell me you can't possibly run a comfortable modern home & full-time-plus manufacturing business off solar PV, small wind power, and batteries. Guess I've been delusional these past fifteen years, then. ;) Now, there's plenty of ways to get it wrong, but getting it right isn't terribly hard.

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8 hours ago, dylan winter said:

now that is what I call a gottem post

 

goodonyaajax!

 

but fek the steering on that sucker must be hard

Sigh. It's a classic example of why, with all due respect, Dylan, when it comes to technical/engineering/scientific discussions, I have absolutely *no* respect for you. You're actually proud of your ignorance and inability - look at your posts expressing disdain for 'fettling' as you call it.

Nobody, certainly not me, has been critical of electric vehicles or boats for that matter, if their use-case is specified. I'd have an electric car if I could afford one and my 1991 Subaru ever dies. Until then, no. One would be a perfect fit for my drives from home to Hobart city and back home again. It fits the shopping trolley use-case perfectly.

That car posted above was connected to the grid to recharge every day. That equates to a day-sailer with a shore power connection. Good use-case for electric drive.

Now take the recent trip I did - load up a dinghy and a few other bits, drive 360km, get on a ferry, drive another 1000 km with one overnight stop. Tell me how an EV suits *that* use-case. Not to mention spend 3 months shopping while working and haul nearly a tonne of stuff (including another dinghy) back home again over the same 1400 km plus ferry crossing. Oh yes a 900 km round trip to my country place in NSW where there's no mains power at all.

If you want to hop from marina to marina and watch your power budget, electric drives in boats can work fine. If you want to go cruising, frequently anchor out, not be dependent on the wind and tides, be able to reliably motor to make a tide to cross a bar, then electric drives cannot satisfy *that* use-case at the moment.

The energy density simply does not *yet* exist. That is a FACT. I realise that to people like you it's an inconvenient fact that you'd prefer not to have to think about, but your desire to ignore reality and insult people who point it out makes zero difference.

And - as I have said many, many times over - the recharge capacity also does not exist. This isn't a great issue IF THE ENERGY DENSITY existed because we can't make our own diesel either. However we can all take 40 to 100 litres extra diesel to extend our range, plus cart those cans to a fuel station. Good luck fishing out 12 big batteries and asking someone to recharge them for you, after carting them off on a trolley/cart. Not to mention the time involved.

Currently, the 2 problems mean that electric powered sailboats have severely limited range and absolutely have to tie up to a dock with shore power at very frequent intervals compared with diesel-powered boats. All the hand-waving and insulting of people who point this out will not change those facts in the slightest.

All I ask is that people be up-front about the limitations of what they're doing so others can make informed decisions.

FKT

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5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Sigh. It's a classic example of why, with all due respect, Dylan, when it comes to technical/engineering/scientific discussions, I have absolutely *no* respect for you. You're actually proud of your ignorance and inability - look at your posts expressing disdain for 'fettling' as you call it.

Nobody, certainly not me, has been critical of electric vehicles or boats for that matter, if their use-case is specified. I'd have an electric car if I could afford one and my 1991 Subaru ever dies. Until then, no. One would be a perfect fit for my drives from home to Hobart city and back home again. It fits the shopping trolley use-case perfectly.

That car posted above was connected to the grid to recharge every day. That equates to a day-sailer with a shore power connection. Good use-case for electric drive.

Now take the recent trip I did - load up a dinghy and a few other bits, drive 360km, get on a ferry, drive another 1000 km with one overnight stop. Tell me how an EV suits *that* use-case. Not to mention spend 3 months shopping while working and haul nearly a tonne of stuff (including another dinghy) back home again over the same 1400 km plus ferry crossing. Oh yes a 900 km round trip to my country place in NSW where there's no mains power at all.

If you want to hop from marina to marina and watch your power budget, electric drives in boats can work fine. If you want to go cruising, frequently anchor out, not be dependent on the wind and tides, be able to reliably motor to make a tide to cross a bar, then electric drives cannot satisfy *that* use-case at the moment.

The energy density simply does not *yet* exist. That is a FACT. I realise that to people like you it's an inconvenient fact that you'd prefer not to have to think about, but your desire to ignore reality and insult people who point it out makes zero difference.

And - as I have said many, many times over - the recharge capacity also does not exist. This isn't a great issue IF THE ENERGY DENSITY existed because we can't make our own diesel either. However we can all take 40 to 100 litres extra diesel to extend our range, plus cart those cans to a fuel station. Good luck fishing out 12 big batteries and asking someone to recharge them for you, after carting them off on a trolley/cart. Not to mention the time involved.

Currently, the 2 problems mean that electric powered sailboats have severely limited range and absolutely have to tie up to a dock with shore power at very frequent intervals compared with diesel-powered boats. All the hand-waving and insulting of people who point this out will not change those facts in the slightest.

All I ask is that people be up-front about the limitations of what they're doing so others can make informed decisions.

FKT

ah bless you for imagining all the things you think I beleive and am

hugely flattered

D

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Can you imagine, sailing across the sea in the fuel that makes your marine engine go?   Well, today my friends, that dream is a reality.  You too can put an ocean water powered engine into your boat.  No more fossil fuels.  :ph34r:

 

 

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6 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Can you imagine, sailing across the sea in the fuel that makes your marine engine go?   Well, today my friends, that dream is a reality.  You too can put an ocean water powered engine into your boat.  No more fossil fuels.  :ph34r:

 

 

Or people can just go back to engine-less pure sailboats. Nobody is stopping them.

The queue starts over there..... and it's not real long.

FKT

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18 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

Ever figure out how much a full charge cost in the electric bill?

- Stumbling

Yes, I figured it out pretty closely. I used a Kill-o-Watt on the outlet to measure how much power it drew. Unfortunately, I've long forgotten the figures. I do remember this:

Gas prices were extremely high at the time and I was slightly ahead when compared with gasoline. At today's prices with the same car, same power consumption, gasoline would be cheaper. Of course, there are other good reasons to drive electric besides cost.

Also, I often found places at my destination to plug in and charge (with the provider's consent).  For example, there was a local hardware store that I frequented and the owner loved the car and told me that I could plug in whenever I needed to.

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14 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Some people still tell me you can't possibly run a comfortable modern home & full-time-plus manufacturing business off solar PV, small wind power, and batteries. Guess I've been delusional these past fifteen years, then. ;) Now, there's plenty of ways to get it wrong, but getting it right isn't terribly hard.

Yep. I just started doing it.  I haven't bought a Tesla automobile but I did just purchase a Tesla solar array with Powerwall.

My house is totally electric, no propane or natural gas (service not available in my area). To make matters worse, my water supply is a well so I consume electricity when pumping water, which people connected to city water don't have to contend with.

My offset for the month of July was 88%....but the array was just activated at the second half of July. My electric bill was $14.00.  For the month of August, my offset is 101%.  We've had plenty of cloudy weather which reduced my production and we do run the A/C in the house and we're still producing all the electricity we need.

It absolutely works but it's not for the "instant gratification crowd", nor is solar for people who like to buy houses every 5 years.  In order for solar to pay off financially, you need to own the house for a long time but it DOES pay off in the long run. My entire system, including the inverter is warrantied for 25 years. The projected service life is 30 years.

Tesla.jpg

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17 hours ago, Not Nice said:

I am going on 4 years in the Caribbean without an engine on my 48fter. If you have a boat that points well and sails in light air and you actually really like sailing it's great. You have to pay a bit more attention and plan better but I don't see any limitations, especially in this part of the world where the wind always blows. I wouldn't go back, a fossil fuel free boat is a beautiful thing.

I assume you have a windless for your ground tackle. How does that work without the diesel?

When cruising, provided there is wind and we are sailing, we have gotten to the point that we almost always anchor under sail. Dropping the anchor and chain is easy. But for retrieval we have to start the diesel even if we wanted to sail off the anchor.

 

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6 minutes ago, Hobie Dog said:

I assume you have a windless for your ground tackle. How does that work without the diesel?

When cruising, provided there is wind and we are sailing, we have gotten to the point that we almost always anchor under sail. Dropping the anchor and chain is easy. But for retrieval we have to start the diesel even if we wanted to sail off the anchor.

 

I have 2 dedicated batteries, for the oversized windlass, mounted in the V-Birth (so no long runs or major voltage drops). They have 120w of solar to keep them topped up. When they are full ( basically always) the charging current can be redirected to the main bank, of 6 group 27s.

 

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5 hours ago, dylan winter said:

Following this film

 

 

 

I have been learning a bit about Groupers - they seem like rather nice fish to have around

 

 

D

 

I would bet that the grouper's monetary value is greater as an ecotourism asset than as sport fishing asset. Leave the damned things alone.

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I'm the first person to admit that we do stupid shit in the U.S. but no, not "only in America" will you see this debate.

How about UK and French fishermen ramming their boats into each other for the privilege of fishing scallops out of existence?  That's just one example that was easy to find.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/french-british-fishermen-ram-boats-fight-scallops-57472299

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-30/french-and-british-fishermen-ram-boats-and-hurl-projectiles/10181398

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Here is a You Tube channel that is not a "Look at me and enjoy what we are doing" or "Join our adventure and send us money!" I saw You Tube videos presented by beginning cruisers that had incredibly wrong information but tried to pass it off as some great learning experience so I thought I would put some videos together based on solid "how to" information. There is no money in this. It is just something to do to keep life interesting as we sail around the world.  I will put a link to the latest post about installing a new head stay inside of a Profurl and how the professional rigger could have really screwed things up.  Right now, there are 19 other videos at the channel of Patrick Childress on You Tube.    

  

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

How about UK and French fishermen ramming their boats into each other for the privilege of fishing scallops out of existence? 

That is about international resource allocation boundaries and in particular positioning for post Brexit...the scallops are the fall guy.

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On 8/29/2018 at 9:51 AM, Ajax said:

Before Tesla was a thing, I converted a 1974 VW Beetle to 100% battery electric drive. People told me "You can't do that."

I did it. I drove it all over the Washington DC/Baltimore region for 2 years and some months. It had a top speed of 70 mph and a range of 35-40 miles. I drove it every day.  It satisfied 90% of my driving needs. I fueled up my gasoline vehicle maybe once per month, sometimes less.  In two years, I put 23,000 miles on that car which is near the national average per year.  CNN asked to interview me twice, but I declined.

Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

EVW1.jpg

EVW.jpg

Very cool project - on multiple fronts!   Edited because the questions had already been answered.  I still like the project! 

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On 9/4/2018 at 9:50 AM, Ajax said:

 

I would bet that the grouper's monetary value is greater as an ecotourism asset than as sport fishing asset. Leave the damned things alone.

 

13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The US does a far better job of resource management than almost any other major country, especially fisheries.  South Florida has just become almost polluted with the floating vacuum cleaners, it's long time passed for a limited season to be open for them.

In another thread the phosphate docks at Boca Grande were brought up,  Goliaths have become so thick there it can be almost impossible to land anything else some days.

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@A guy in the Chesapeake  Thanks.

It had its flaws. In addition to the underpowered brakes, it really should have had a bigger motor. Not much bigger, but bigger.  Also, I had difficulty keeping the motor controller cool enough on really hot summer days.  I ended up gluing a large amplifier heat sink to the top of the controller. The next step was a cooling fan to blow across the heat sink but I didn't get that far.   I was really trying to avoid the complexity of liquid cooling.

It was fun to own, though.

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1 minute ago, Ajax said:

@A guy in the Chesapeake  Thanks.

It had its flaws. In addition to the underpowered brakes, it really should have had a bigger motor. Not much bigger, but bigger.  Also, I had difficulty keeping the motor controller cool enough on really hot summer days.  I ended up gluing a large amplifier heat sink to the top of the controller. The next step was a cooling fan to blow across the heat sink but I didn't get that far.   I was really trying to avoid the complexity of liquid cooling.

It was fun to own, though.

I love practical projects like that.  Interested in the details of your home solar installation, if you'd care to share.  I looked at that about 10 years ago, when I'd done a solar hot-water pre-heater experiment.  Costs/benefit were too long/outta line at that point in time, but, might be time to reconsider w/today's efficiency/costs. 

 

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I love practical projects like that.  Interested in the details of your home solar installation, if you'd care to share.  I looked at that about 10 years ago, when I'd done a solar hot-water pre-heater experiment.  Costs/benefit were too long/outta line at that point in time, but, might be time to reconsider w/today's efficiency/costs. 

 

There's not much to tell. It's an 8.6Kw array with an ordinary string inverter. 28 panels. Tesla was the cheapest cost "per watt" compared to 2 other vendors that I got quotes from.

Telsa sent a surveyor to the house with something called a "sunbot."  They put it on the roof and it takes a 360 degree panoramic which calculates your average total solar exposure, taking into account the arc of the sun and your location. Their engineers design the system based on your solar exposure and your roof construction.

Maryland is exceptionally generous with the tax incentives. Not only is there a state renewable energy credit, there is a *county* energy credit and the state now offers an "energy storage" tax credit which reduced the cost of the Powerwall from $8500 to $3200 (including installation).  Where the fuck am I going to get a house sized propane generator installed for only $3200?  The tax incentives were another reason where I thought "It's now or never."

I only bought one 14kwh battery though. It's just to keep the pellet stove running during the winter storms or to run the fridge during summer storms along with keeping the well pumping so I can have drinking water and flush the toilets.

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4 minutes ago, Ajax said:

There's not much to tell. It's an 8.6Kw array with an ordinary string inverter. 28 panels. Tesla was the cheapest cost "per watt" compared to 2 other vendors that I got quotes from.

Telsa sent a surveyor to the house with something called a "sunbot."  They put it on the roof and it takes a 360 degree panoramic which calculates your average total solar exposure, taking into account the arc of the sun and your location. Their engineers design the system based on your solar exposure and your roof construction.

Maryland is exceptionally generous with the tax incentives. Not only is there a state renewable energy credit, there is a *county* energy credit and the state now offers an "energy storage" tax credit which reduced the cost of the Powerwall from $8500 to $3200 (including installation).  Where the fuck am I going to get a house sized propane generator installed for only $3200?  The tax incentives were another reason where I thought "It's now or never."

I only bought one 14kwh battery though. It's just to keep the pellet stove running during the winter storms or to run the fridge during summer storms along with keeping the well pumping so I can have drinking water and flush the toilets.

Retail was only $8500? That's a lot less than I thought it'd be.  I have very ineffecient electric heating ( + the woodstove ) and have been going thru an efficiency improvement exercise (new high efficiency heat-pump hot water heater, LED bulbs all over, insulation, windows, etc) - having solar w/enough battery to run the well pump would be a big help, and should make a big dent in my pre-improvement $400/month electric bill. 

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Just for fun, this graphic displays all the other Tesla solar array owners just in my immediate area.  The app does not allow me to zoom out, only pan around in a limited area. This does *not* take into account home owners who have solar installations provided by other vendors. If it did, the map would be even more dense.

The area shown is immediately south of Annapolis, Maryland. I am one of the pins in the very bottom, right corner, down near green patch.  Where the pins get sparse off to the left, is mostly farmland and population density is much lower.

Nearme.jpg

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9 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Crews on the roof in sneakers. Jesus.

Old fashioned light cheap tennis shoes were the footware of choice for most pro-roofers. Often had two pair with one never touching the ground/grass/dirt for steep stuff. WPH&S incl fall protection rules has seen their use drop off. Many still ignore footware rules as their view is fall prevention stops falls not fall protection. 

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14 hours ago, Ajax said:

It was fun to own, though

I saw a 74 model the other day in average condition costing around the same as new price in 74. The equivalent replacement cost today is around 8 times 74 price or around half annual minimum wage. 74 price new was closer to annual minimum wage. Cars like boats have got cheaper over time.

On the other hand a 1960's Kombi in reasonable condition is around 30 times original price new so original purchase actually an investment and used more so. Can't say I've seen a boat yet to match that and secure investment grade status.

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I just did a plumbing rough-in on a new place with a 12/12 pitch, metal roof and vents located at the ridge.  I heaved a line over the whole place and belayed it to a tree.  With both hands free to hand over hand the rope, it was surprisingly easy to walk right on up - in sneakers.

(job is private, so no need to comply with safety bullshit)

 

Steve

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9 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

No, he had the intellect to make a microwave oven from two coconuts and Ginger's best panties but he couldn't get them rescued? Fail.

Gilligan always screwed up his attempts.  I'm guessing he liked being marooned with two hotties.

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On 8/29/2018 at 11:51 PM, Ajax said:

Before Tesla was a thing, I converted a 1974 VW Beetle to 100% battery electric drive. People told me "You can't do that."

I did it. I drove it all over the Washington DC/Baltimore region for 2 years and some months. It had a top speed of 70 mph and a range of 35-40 miles. I drove it every day.  It satisfied 90% of my driving needs. I fueled up my gasoline vehicle maybe once per month, sometimes less.  In two years, I put 23,000 miles on that car which is near the national average per year.  CNN asked to interview me twice, but I declined.

Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't get in the way of people who are actually doing it.

 

 

What happened to it and why did it stop?

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4 hours ago, random said:

What happened to it and why did it stop?

I moved to an area that exceeded the range of the vehicle in its current configuration.

My new commute would have caused an 80% DoD *each way* which would kill the batteries fairly quickly and make the car a losing proposition. I could have swapped from 8v to 6v batteries to extend the range but the trade off in speed was unacceptable. My top speed was 70+.  6v batteries would have reduced that to 55 mph which would have made me a hazard on the high speed roads I use to commute.

I sold it to an elderly couple in a town nearby where they presumably use it to shuttle around town locally.

People ask me why I don't build a better EV. My answer is- high quality production EVs are now readily available for purchase. Converting a gasoline vehicle to electric is unproductive. When the time is right, I will replace one of my fossil burners with an EV. I probably won't be able to afford a Tesla so it'll probably be a Nissan Leaf.  I won't buy a Chevy Bolt because GM doesn't stand by their products.

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12 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I moved to an area that exceeded the range of the vehicle in its current configuration.

My new commute would have caused an 80% DoD *each way* which would kill the batteries fairly quickly and make the car a losing proposition. I could have swapped from 8v to 6v batteries to extend the range but the trade off in speed was unacceptable. My top speed was 70+.  6v batteries would have reduced that to 55 mph which would have made me a hazard on the high speed roads I use to commute.

I sold it to an elderly couple in a town nearby where they presumably use it to shuttle around town locally.

People ask me why I don't build a better EV. My answer is- high quality production EVs are now readily available for purchase. Converting a gasoline vehicle to electric is unproductive. When the time is right, I will replace one of my fossil burners with an EV. I probably won't be able to afford a Tesla so it'll probably be a Nissan Leaf.  I won't buy a Chevy Bolt because GM doesn't stand by their products.

Been keeping an eye on the market.  Might get one next car.

I see the safety issues, airbags and crash safety ratings stopping conversion attractiveness.

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

meanwhile Mads is still fixing shit and not sailing

Dylan, I dunno why you have such a downer on Mads.  He's one of the cutest geeks online,

His videos are v well-made and entertaining, with plenty of self-deprecating humour an a witty turn of phrase.  It's a rare combination with OCD, and he does it better than anyone else on any screen.

Plus he is super-cute, in a Mum-would-approve sorta way.  There must have been many girls chasing him as he developed his online presence.

And he is also providing a very informative step-by-step guide to a high-standard DIY deep refit of classic plastic.  I know Dylan isn't bothered with fettling himself, but Dylan been the beneficiary of other people's refits ... and this ageing stock of classic plastic will survive  the next few decades only if someone does these labour-of-love refits.

 

1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

we are indeed in a golden age of sailing journalism

the likes of Middleton, Slocum and Sleightholme are put in the shade by the modern story tellers.

Amen to that.

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34 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

 

Dylan, I dunno why you have such a downer on Mads.  He's one of the cutest geeks online,

His videos are v well-made and entertaining, with plenty of self-deprecating humour an a witty turn of phrase.  It's a rare combination with OCD, and he does it better than anyone else on any screen.

Plus he is super-cute, in a Mum-would-approve sorta way.  There must have been many girls chasing him as he developed his online presence.

And he is also providing a very informative step-by-step guide to a high-standard DIY deep refit of classic plastic.  I know Dylan isn't bothered with fettling himself, but Dylan been the beneficiary of other people's refits ... and this ageing stock of classic plastic will survive  the next few decades only if someone does these labour-of-love refits.

 

Amen to that.

not a downer - he cracks me up

 

and god bless the compulsive boat fettlers - as you say, non fettlers are beneficiaries of their efforts.... although we also have to fix some of their insane ideas.

Dylan

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5 hours ago, dylan winter said:

meanwhile Mads is still fixing shit and not sailing

we are indeed in a golden age of sailing journalism

the likes of Middleton, Slocum and Sleightholme are put in the shade by the modern story tellers.

Dylan

the never ending refit

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These sailing vloggers are not YouTube stars in the broad scheme of things.  Even market-leader Delos gets 100K–150K views, rather than the millions of view logged by those who get gold plaques from YouTube.  And their income streams come from Patreon, rather than YouTube itself.

But the basic phenomenon is the same.  Labour hard in private to feed the content beast, turning your own private life into a soap, while maintaining communications with hundreds or even thousands of fans.

This is a high-stress business.  So how long before the sailing vloggers start to suffer the sort of burnout described in this article about the (mostly late-teens/20-something) YouTube casualties covered in this article by Simon Parkin in today's edition of The Guardian?

“The journey to creative stardom used to take more time – learning the ropes and developing a thick skin, and having a team of advisers and trusted friends,” says Chris O’Sullivan, from the UK charity the Mental Health Foundation. “Today, you can become a superstar online with one viral video – at any age or stage and from any location. Without support and guidance, the potential to be burned by the exposure is great.”


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/sep/08/youtube-stars-burnout-fun-bleak-stressed

 

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50 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

These sailing vloggers are not YouTube stars in the broad scheme of things.  Even market-leader Delos gets 100K–150K views, rather than the millions of view logged by those who get gold plaques from YouTube.  And their income streams come from Patreon, rather than YouTube itself.

But the basic phenomenon is the same.  Labour hard in private to feed the content beast, turning your own private life into a soap, while maintaining communications with hundreds or even thousands of fans.

This is a high-stress business.  So how long before the sailing vloggers start to suffer the sort of burnout described in this article about the (mostly late-teens/20-something) YouTube casualties covered in this article by Simon Parkin in today's edition of The Guardian?

“The journey to creative stardom used to take more time – learning the ropes and developing a thick skin, and having a team of advisers and trusted friends,” says Chris O’Sullivan, from the UK charity the Mental Health Foundation. “Today, you can become a superstar online with one viral video – at any age or stage and from any location. Without support and guidance, the potential to be burned by the exposure is great.”


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/sep/08/youtube-stars-burnout-fun-bleak-stressed

 

Quite a few of the sailing channels have gone dark - I think that is a natural thing with any project. They all have a life cycle.  Some might come back from the dead - you never know.

D

 

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