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Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object


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54 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Yeah I'd bet a lot of money it's the shroud tension. Possibly unaccounted tension in the actual knots which lead to a "false slack" in the control line.

Make sure the knots on your shroud setup allow for as much length in the system as humanly possible. It's possible to have the little control line which goes to the cleat totally slack but still have the shrouds locking up if the tackle themselves are out of range. An easy way to test for this is to fully untie the shrouds from the bullseye low friction rings for one hoist. Seems silly but it's a nice binary way to make dead certain that you aren't locking the mast into a overly straight position.

The luff curve of the UFO mainsail is aggressive and the shrouds are designed to push the mast into a straight position. The mast needs to be allowed to form to the curve of the luff through the hoist. Weirdly enough the same factor is critical on the Fareast 19R. Just found out from a customer the other day. In that case I think you crank on a backstay to hoist. The down and back pull with the UFO halyard is doing a similar thing.

The relationship between the luff round and the straight but bendable spar is 99% of the time the critical or only feature. As a general note to anybody, don't bother considering conventional factors like lubrication or batten tension until this relationship has been FULLY explored. If you've got the curves matched and it still isn't going up, look for debris in the track.

DRC

Thanks! During assembly I made sure that there were no twists of fouls where the shroud met the spreader, but I'll keep an eye on tension during the hoist. Track was brush cleaned to free it of nesting critters. In fairness, we have not been hyper-bending the mast. If anything, I was pulling in a way to minimize that. Is it unbreakable (practically)?

What I notice is that 4-6" below each batten, the stretch perpendicular to the mast is significant and pulling the bolt rope away. I assume that a big bend will resolve this.

 

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I see a lot of comments on issues raising the sail.   From my catamaran days, I have a Easy-Rigg tool that allows me to stand at the mast and hoist all the way – no need to move aft.    Not sure if it is still available but here are some pictures.

 

BTW – is anyone else upset that US Sailing has not endorsed the UFO Foiler over the Melges import?    The UFO is built in their backyard!

PXL_20210726_192424129.jpg

PXL_20210726_192418935.jpg

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Need some help from my UFO Foiler friends.   I’ve been sailing the UFO for almost two years now but still having a hell of a time with sustained flight.    I’ve owned and actively raced many boats including a Prindle 18-2 and a Hobie 17 so not new to sailing.    I’m 70” tall and 210 lbs.  I’ve watched DRC’s videos over a dozen of time but capsize to windward more often than I would like to admit.    Matter of fact, I’ve capsized the UFO more times then all the other boats combined.  

Below is my speed track in knots from Sunday on Superior Bay Duluth.   A lot of kite sailors were out since the winds were 10- 13 knots with gust to 17.    I sit on the middle pad, feet in far hiking strap.   The wand has 12-15” showing above the strut.   I get going and up (silent wake) and as can been seen from the graph, speed goes to zero (there are several parking events where I didn’t stop my Garmin Instinct watch).   The higher speeds are on a beam/broad reach.  I did have a great recovery where I almost capsized but pulled it out – rowing helps.

Looking for any advice anyone may have.  

Thank you,

Joe

image.png

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29 minutes ago, Joseph Lapp said:

Need some help from my UFO Foiler friends.   I’ve been sailing the UFO for almost two years now but still having a hell of a time with sustained flight.    I’ve owned and actively raced many boats including a Prindle 18-2 and a Hobie 17 so not new to sailing.    I’m 70” tall and 210 lbs.  I’ve watched DRC’s videos over a dozen of time but capsize to windward more often than I would like to admit.    Matter of fact, I’ve capsized the UFO more times then all the other boats combined.  

Below is my speed track in knots from Sunday on Superior Bay Duluth.   A lot of kite sailors were out since the winds were 10- 13 knots with gust to 17.    I sit on the middle pad, feet in far hiking strap.   The wand has 12-15” showing above the strut.   I get going and up (silent wake) and as can been seen from the graph, speed goes to zero (there are several parking events where I didn’t stop my Garmin Instinct watch).   The higher speeds are on a beam/broad reach.  I did have a great recovery where I almost capsized but pulled it out – rowing helps.

Looking for any advice anyone may have.  

Thank you,

Joe

image.png

Do you have video? It usually helps see whether you have too much/little lift on the foils and other issues.

Had you made changes to the boat? Some custom mods interfere...

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50 minutes ago, Joseph Lapp said:

I see a lot of comments on issues raising the sail.   From my catamaran days, I have a Easy-Rigg tool that allows me to stand at the mast and hoist all the way – no need to move aft.    Not sure if it is still available but here are some pictures.

Interesting! Is this just a jam cleat shaped to hold in your hand for better grip? Why do you not need to go aft? Is it because you have so much grip that you can bend it enough from the mast's position?

Doesn't look like they are readily available anymore, but I wonder if I can 3D print one or print a "wrapper" for a regular jam cleat.

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4 hours ago, Joseph Lapp said:

Need some help from my UFO Foiler friends.   I’ve been sailing the UFO for almost two years now but still having a hell of a time with sustained flight.    I’ve owned and actively raced many boats including a Prindle 18-2 and a Hobie 17 so not new to sailing.    I’m 70” tall and 210 lbs.  I’ve watched DRC’s videos over a dozen of time but capsize to windward more often than I would like to admit.    Matter of fact, I’ve capsized the UFO more times then all the other boats combined.  

Below is my speed track in knots from Sunday on Superior Bay Duluth.   A lot of kite sailors were out since the winds were 10- 13 knots with gust to 17.    I sit on the middle pad, feet in far hiking strap.   The wand has 12-15” showing above the strut.   I get going and up (silent wake) and as can been seen from the graph, speed goes to zero (there are several parking events where I didn’t stop my Garmin Instinct watch).   The higher speeds are on a beam/broad reach.  I did have a great recovery where I almost capsized but pulled it out – rowing helps.

Looking for any advice anyone may have.  

Thank you,

Joe

image.png

Stupid question, but are you sheeting to as you take off to keep the sail locked into the rapidly shifting apparent wind? As you speed up, if you aren't sheeting hand over hand through the tiller extension (you MUST two hand sheet) you are basically easing which will induce weather roll.


DRC

Ps. Regarding our neighbors at US sailing. We're focused on producing a popular and good product. Whether the sailing government takes an interest in our work at all is entirely beyond our control. Forcing it would consume time that is best spent building and perfecting UFOs. And we're shoulder deep in that!

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Dave

Thank you.  I went back to the YouTube and watched UFO Spring training Apr 2018 and understand your two handed sheeting technique.  Also found another UFO owner here in Duluth!   Cant wait to get together - two heads are better than one old one.

BTW my mistake about US Sailing - it was SailGP not US Sailing.   Though it would be great if they recognized the UFO Foiler.   

Martin - no video yet but after sustained flight will work on video

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15 hours ago, Joseph Lapp said:

Need some help from my UFO Foiler friends.   I’ve been sailing the UFO for almost two years now but still having a hell of a time with sustained flight.    I’ve owned and actively raced many boats including a Prindle 18-2 and a Hobie 17 so not new to sailing.    I’m 70” tall and 210 lbs.  I’ve watched DRC’s videos over a dozen of time but capsize to windward more often than I would like to admit.    Matter of fact, I’ve capsized the UFO more times then all the other boats combined.  

Below is my speed track in knots from Sunday on Superior Bay Duluth.   A lot of kite sailors were out since the winds were 10- 13 knots with gust to 17.    I sit on the middle pad, feet in far hiking strap.   The wand has 12-15” showing above the strut.   I get going and up (silent wake) and as can been seen from the graph, speed goes to zero (there are several parking events where I didn’t stop my Garmin Instinct watch).   The higher speeds are on a beam/broad reach.  I did have a great recovery where I almost capsized but pulled it out – rowing helps.

Looking for any advice anyone may have.

Hey, Joe.

One of the most frequent mistakes I see in the folks I’ve introduced to the boat is just giving up too soon: once the boat starts to heel to windward, they feel like, “Well, it’s over…here I go…I’m going to crash to windward again,” and they just stop sheeting or they try to fix it with steering.  Watch the last 15 seconds of this video.  You’ll see a buddy of mine who sounds close to your dimensions and is an accomplished VX-1 racer (planing boat) get up and foiling.  Notice how the clew is still well outside of the boat — he has loads of room to keep sheeting in, but instead he relies on his planing boat instinct (which does rely on drastic rudder inputs on occasion to keep the boat upright).  After I hammered that point home with him, he now has it figured out.

Even after you enter the water to windward, DON’T GIVE UP and KEEP SAILING THE BOAT.  The light bulb really came on for me one time when I was underwater getting the full-treatment, high-pressure nasal irrigation, completely blinded by water, but I just forced my hands to do another hand-over-hand sheet in; and in the next second I was four feet out of the water and screaming along in the UFO’s high gear.

You may also want to just try it with full wand extension.  I started the last guy I taught with full wand extension (he didn’t know any better) and he was up and foiling in about 30 minutes (video here).  It will give you just a tad bit more room to pull off that extra one or two hand-over-hand sheet-ins before the windward hull or your butt/body hits the water and starts slowing the boat down.  What do you have to lose?  Seriously, don’t be intimidated by full wand extension.

I would argue that it’s absolutely okay to overdo the sheets and eases.  Getting that part right, even if you’re over-correcting, will at least keep you on the foils; then with experience you’ll start to fine tune how much to ease and how much to sheet in.  A mantra that I keep repeating to myself, especially when I’m in the middle of a long run is “Quick to ease, slow to squeeze.”  That is: do whatever is needed to prevent a heel to leeward (including a bear-away if needed), but as I start rolling back to windward, resist the urge to yank in the sheet and instead squeeze it as I settle into rocket mode.  That’s where the real fun starts.

As Martin said, videos are key.  Whether or not you post them here for critique, being able to look back at your failures and successes are immensely helpful.  Best of luck.  Standing by,

Kelly

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9 hours ago, Joseph Lapp said:

Martin - no video yet but after sustained flight will work on video

All good stuff. And you're getting good advise from all corners.

Just to note that the video is key for yourself (and anyone you ask for advise) to "see" your current setup and technique, and advise. For me, my early videos were key to get past my learning hiccups.

In other words - videos will get you to sustained flight.

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Hi everyone, 

I bought a UFO this past March.  It’s taken me until now to reach the final page of the forum.  Luckily I’ve had the chance to sail the boat 4-5 times in foiling conditions and starting to figure it out.  Largest issue is finding time/wind.   Nevertheless, lot of good stuff here.  I’m sure I missed a lot of it but a great resource.  

One question, are there any events on the schedule, or is there a schedule? I think it would be fun to sail with/against a few more boats.  I sail from Larchmont, NY where we have 3 UFOs, but so far I’ve only been out with another UFO once.  

Regards, 
Jamie 

P.S. sorry for no pics or video, I’m super lame and need to improve in that area. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, IC43 said:

One question, are there any events on the schedule, or is there a schedule?

Welcome to the jungle @IC43! COVID year, no schedule right now. I organized a small event here in Miami couple months ago. 

@Dave Clark - not a bad time to start asking whether we could/should have a winter event.

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What is the best way to dismount the 2 parts of a mast blocked by salt ? Several months ago, I saw a solution, but I can't find it again in the forum...

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FYI, 

For the hard to raise sail, keep an eye on the hounds.  I was having the sail bind up at the hounds at times until I re-configure things a little bit.

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20 hours ago, Gilles29 said:

What is the best way to dismount the 2 parts of a mast blocked by salt ? Several months ago, I saw a solution, but I can't find it again in the forum...

I'm pretty sure I've collected that in the unofficial owners' manual (in my signature)...

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7 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I'm pretty sure I've collected that in the unofficial owners' manual (in my signature)...

Thanks Martin, I did'nt remember where this was described

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7 hours ago, P Flados said:

FYI, 

For the hard to raise sail, keep an eye on the hounds.  I was having the sail bind up at the hounds at times until I re-configure things a little bit.

Thanks. Can you elaborate a bit? Are you referring to the spot where the line to which the shrouds attach wraps the mast? I've had an eye on that and I'm not even there yet.

 

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On 7/29/2021 at 7:54 AM, barthrh said:

Thanks. Can you elaborate a bit? Are you referring to the spot where the line to which the shrouds attach wraps the mast? I've had an eye on that and I'm not even there yet.

 

That is the location I was talking about.  

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Kelly,

Thank you for the information and videos.  For sure, I am not giving up anytime soon!   I’ve had several good nasal rinse recoveries – feels good not to go over.  I can see my sheeting technique needs work which your videos clearly show. Unfortunately, I injured my left calf – trip over backwards and hit the upright spreader on the ground (I was assembling as a good wind was building).    10 stiches later and my sailing and rowing is on a pause – and a waste of a good foiling day.   I do have one question for the owner’s guide.

Martin,

After closely reviewing several videos, I have a question regarding the small mainsheet block attached by bungee cord to the boom.  I’ve been pushing the attachment point way forward on the boom which I now see is hurting my sheeting – there is more play in the mainsheet before the boom moves.  So where should the bungee cord attach to the boom and how far from the boom?   I may have missed in on the unofficial UFO Owner’s guide.

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On 8/1/2021 at 12:38 PM, Joseph Lapp said:

After closely reviewing several videos, I have a question regarding the small mainsheet block attached by bungee cord to the boom.  I’ve been pushing the attachment point way forward on the boom which I now see is hurting my sheeting – there is more play in the mainsheet before the boom moves.  So where should the bungee cord attach to the boom and how far from the boom?   I may have missed in on the unofficial UFO Owner’s guide.

Sorry to hear about your injury.   I hope you heal up quickly and can get back out on the water, summer is short!    As for the location of the main sheet take-up block, I don't think it is too critical.   My bungee is about 18" forward of the outhaul cleat on the boom.   I think that's about where it was when I bought the boat, but it may have moved fore or aft a little.   Once you are sheeted in it has no effect, but when you are taking it helps keep the mainsheet from snagging your hat (or your head) so its nice to have.   I can see how if you move it way forward, it will begin to have a more 'active' role in the sheeting than it likely should.

Doug

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Hello,

 

Just picked up a demo hull that Speed Fulcrum is lending me while my hull gets built. I am a weekend warrior sailor. Laser mostly. Very excited to learn this.  Located in MA, north shore of Boston. Anyone nearby?

I am reading through all the materials Kirk sent me and working through this thread, but if you don't mind, I'd like to ask advice on a simplified list of best practices while just learning the boat. There is a lot of info available which is great, but I want to concentrate on as few things as possible to start. 

Rigging:

1. Rudder rake? I think this should be in the middle. Set-and-forget for now unless my bow is either rising too high and the wand coming out or clearly diving too low. How many turns from the back is neutral?

2. Main foil pin position?  Set in the middle and forget it for now?

3. Battens: Lots of different things have been written about this. Sounds like first I need a baseline setting. To get that I tighten them until the battens  stand on their own (I think that means laying the sail down and tightening until they bow upwards and hold) Some places it says until the wrinkles disappear. Agree?  After that I am unclear of what to do for 10-12 knts

4. Do you use a Spinlock rig sensor? Necessary?

 

It sounds like I should not worry too much about rig settings to start because steering, body position and sheeting are much more impactful on performance than rig settings. Agree?

 

Sailing:

Active sheeting seems like the most important skill and active sheeting often means arm lengths, not micro-adjustments of a few inches. Agree?

Windward heel is what you want almost all the time once on the foils. 

Taking off across the wind is easiest, per Dave's videos

 

Assuming what I put above is accurate, please correct me if not, what are your top two or three pieces of advice for learning? Thanks in advance for any response. I know a lot of this stuff is out there but there are (understandably) multiple versions

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On 8/9/2021 at 9:41 AM, Ledge said:

Hello,

 

Just picked up a demo hull that Speed Fulcrum is lending me while my hull gets built. I am a weekend warrior sailor. Laser mostly. Very excited to learn this.  Located in MA, north shore of Boston. Anyone nearby?

I am reading through all the materials Kirk sent me and working through this thread, but if you don't mind, I'd like to ask advice on a simplified list of best practices while just learning the boat. There is a lot of info available which is great, but I want to concentrate on as few things as possible to start. 

Rigging:

1. Rudder rake? I think this should be in the middle. Set-and-forget for now unless my bow is either rising too high and the wand coming out or clearly diving too low. How many turns from the back is neutral

Yep, start with it in the middle of its travel.   Your thoughts on adjustment are spot on.

2. Main foil pin position?  Set in the middle and forget it for now?

Yep, start in the middle.  Some of us use one hole forward of middle in higher winds.

3. Battens: Lots of different things have been written about this. Sounds like first I need a baseline setting. To get that I tighten them until the battens  stand on their own (I think that means laying the sail down and tightening until they bow upwards and hold) Some places it says until the wrinkles disappear. Agree?  After that I am unclear of what to do for 10-12 knts

Already well documented on the site.  baseline is good for 10-15 knots.

4. Do you use a Spinlock rig sensor? Necessary?

I don't, its not necessary.  But whenever I do (when I am around Dave Clark) I always find that my rig should be much tighter than I think it should be.

It sounds like I should not worry too much about rig settings to start because steering, body position and sheeting are much more impactful on performance than rig settings. Agree?  Agree!

 

Sailing:

Active sheeting seems like the most important skill and active sheeting often means arm lengths, not micro-adjustments of a few inches. Agree?   Agreed!

Windward heel is what you want almost all the time once on the foils. Agreed!  This is particularly true when climbing up to full height on the foils.

Taking off across the wind is easiest, per Dave's videos  Absolutely.   Beam reach, sometimes even a very slight bear away from beam.   Once you master it, you can get up on a close reach.  The stronger the wind, the higher you can be pointing and still get up foiling.

 

Assuming what I put above is accurate, please correct me if not, what are your top two or three pieces of advice for learning? Thanks in advance for any response. I know a lot of this stuff is out there but there are (understandably) multiple versions.   Go out in moderate winds first.   12 knots is ideal to learn foiling.   Less than 10 will be frustrating, more than 15 is intimidating.   Its not a bad idea to go out in light air (4-6 knots) and just sail the boat in low riding mode first to get the hang of moving around it, tacking, rigging, etc without worrying about capsizing, foiling, etc.   Keep sailing as long as you are smiling!

 

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On 8/9/2021 at 9:41 AM, Ledge said:

Hello,

 

Just picked up a demo hull that Speed Fulcrum is lending me while my hull gets built. I am a weekend warrior sailor. Laser mostly. Very excited to learn this.  Located in MA, north shore of Boston. Anyone nearby?

I am reading through all the materials Kirk sent me and working through this thread, but if you don't mind, I'd like to ask advice on a simplified list of best practices while just learning the boat. There is a lot of info available which is great, but I want to concentrate on as few things as possible to start. 

Rigging:

1. Rudder rake? I think this should be in the middle. Set-and-forget for now unless my bow is either rising too high and the wand coming out or clearly diving too low. How many turns from the back is neutral?

2. Main foil pin position?  Set in the middle and forget it for now?

3. Battens: Lots of different things have been written about this. Sounds like first I need a baseline setting. To get that I tighten them until the battens  stand on their own (I think that means laying the sail down and tightening until they bow upwards and hold) Some places it says until the wrinkles disappear. Agree?  After that I am unclear of what to do for 10-12 knts

4. Do you use a Spinlock rig sensor? Necessary?

 

It sounds like I should not worry too much about rig settings to start because steering, body position and sheeting are much more impactful on performance than rig settings. Agree?

 

Sailing:

Active sheeting seems like the most important skill and active sheeting often means arm lengths, not micro-adjustments of a few inches. Agree?

Windward heel is what you want almost all the time once on the foils. 

Taking off across the wind is easiest, per Dave's videos

 

Assuming what I put above is accurate, please correct me if not, what are your top two or three pieces of advice for learning? Thanks in advance for any response. I know a lot of this stuff is out there but there are (understandably) multiple versions

Cool ride! Generally in agreement, just a couple points

- Use the Unofficial UFO Owner's guide (link in my sig), has good info.

- The spinlock is necessary at the beginning, because the rig tension needs to be much higher than you'd expect, and you only get there by having the spinlock. In particular in medium to light winds, you need the power of a tight rig. Only once you've used the spinlock you can do without it...

- Batten tension is also critical in medium to light winds.

- Forward/aft body placement is crucial

 

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For newbies,

The 9/21/18 post has the assembly video.

The thread postings from 9/19/2020 to 9/23/2020 are a good read for “easier tacking”.

For battens, the bottom line for starting out is that you want enough tension so that they do not pop "too easy" on a tack and loose enough so that you do not have to fight them to get them popped.  The main controls for sail shape are lots of shroud tension applied with no outhaul or cunningham for light wind and less shroud tension / more outhaul as winds get higher.  Cunningham goes last and your target is wrinkle reduction (I think).

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14 hours ago, Champlain Sailor said:

 

Thank you very much. We are going out today and will see how it goes Forecast looks a little big at 15 :unsure: but ready to give it a try. 

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UFO available in New England!   I don't know this boat or who this is, I just saw the ad on Craigslist.  If you want a UFO NOW in New England, go get it.   

https://vermont.craigslist.org/boa/d/alton-ufo-foiler-foiling-catamaran-like/7362662761.html

 

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Had a great first try with the boat. Unfortunately the sea breeze didn't kick in as predicted so it was mostly displacement.  I am very happy with the boat's performance in displacement mode.  Seems like I'll be able to get and out of launching spots without much issue and back home if the wind dies.  

 

There seems to be a lot of play in my main foil. The arm moved up or down three of four inches at the wand end in the swells we had yesterday. How much play is normal?

 

Thanks and thanks again for posts above

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6TMQTtkDUj4HvPUk9

 

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@Ledge some play is normal, once foiling it "locks in". There's ways to improve it. I used to put velcro tape - the hooks side - on the foil vertical in the spot where it exits the foil trunk. Tape it all around, then 'shave' the hooks as needed until it 'fits'. The velcro lasts a dozen outings, needs to be replaced periodically. I have since stopped doing it.

IIRC this is a loaner boat from Fulcrum, right? the play is normal as longs as it locks in when you're going at speed. Rudder should have no play OTOH. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Any Canadians know who would insure a UFO? I tried getting coverage through Aviva but they're denying coverage because they don't cover hydrofoils (even though I empathized it doesn't have an engine). The sailing club I'm trying to store the boat at requires me to get insurance and the only recommendation they gave me was Aviva. 

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Are you concerned about cutting someone in half, the boat getting smashed up while you are sailing it or the boat being stolen?

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5 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Are you concerned about cutting someone in half, the boat getting smashed up while you are sailing it or the boat being stolen?

The sailing club (and all the others in the Toronto area I've found) I'm trying to store it at requires a minimum 2 million liability marine insurance. I'm trying to ask if I can just use my home insurance policy which also could cover my boat, but until they respond I'm still trying to find options that fit in their requirements.

I'm told other foilers have gotten their coverage through Skippers Plan but when I reached out to them they told me (quite rudely) that they do not and will not insure foilers. So I'm not sure if this is a recent change or if others just slipped under the radar.

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14 minutes ago, aeiro said:

The sailing club (and all the others in the Toronto area I've found) I'm trying to store it at requires a minimum 2 million liability marine insurance. I'm trying to ask if I can just use my home insurance policy which also could cover my boat, but until they respond I'm still trying to find options that fit in their requirements.

I'm told other foilers have gotten their coverage through Skippers Plan but when I reached out to them they told me (quite rudely) that they do not and will not insure foilers. So I'm not sure if this is a recent change or if others just slipped under the radar.

Toronto? Also my location! I had insurance through Skippers Plan. Cost was $212 but I recently cancelled it because I felt it unnecessary. I wonder if they won't issue a new policy if I change my mind.

PM me if you'd like to get together for a sail. I barely get out, mostly because of my poor location (behind a breakwall, lots of chop outside) and just being prodded along!

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Hello,

Looking to demo or try out a small foiler (moth, dingy, whatever) to figure out which one (if) I want one based on really sailing them, not just what people say about them. No sailing experience. Live in Seattle. Super nice. I get that this is a stretch.

The rest of this message is just details you can probably skip.

I am a lifelong athlete and adventurer who has had dreams all my life of sailing long distance and racing some day . I'm a former financial professional starting a NPO now.

I'm considering writing and filming each demo as well as a complete beginner in sailing, but I'm not 100% on that yet.

I have no sailing experience, but have been on non-foiling sailboats many times. I have serious interest in sailing. I have plans/prints for building a Norwalk Islands Sharpie as well, different project, but related.

I don't suspect someone will let me just hop in their high performance foiler for a spin with no sailing experience. I don't own a boat yet nor have any friends who do. I'm a super friendly personable guy. Where's a guy get experience sailing so all that can happen without having to pay for and waste a ton of time with lessons? I pick things, especially sports, up very fast. 

Just throwing out a bunch of information to see where it goes. The Fulcrum UFO guys sent me here.

Thanks,

Ben

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39 minutes ago, mountainclimber11 said:

Hello,

Looking to demo or try out a small foiler (moth, dingy, whatever) to figure out which one (if) I want one based on really sailing them, not just what people say about them. No sailing experience. Live in Seattle. Super nice. I get that this is a stretch.

The rest of this message is just details you can probably skip.

I am a lifelong athlete and adventurer who has had dreams all my life of sailing long distance and racing some day . I'm a former financial professional starting a NPO now.

I'm considering writing and filming each demo as well as a complete beginner in sailing, but I'm not 100% on that yet.

I have no sailing experience, but have been on non-foiling sailboats many times. I have serious interest in sailing. I have plans/prints for building a Norwalk Islands Sharpie as well, different project, but related.

I don't suspect someone will let me just hop in their high performance foiler for a spin with no sailing experience. I don't own a boat yet nor have any friends who do. I'm a super friendly personable guy. Where's a guy get experience sailing so all that can happen without having to pay for and waste a ton of time with lessons? I pick things, especially sports, up very fast. 

Just throwing out a bunch of information to see where it goes. The Fulcrum UFO guys sent me here.

Thanks,

Ben

A Moth is a big stretch if you have no sailing experience.  If you're attracted to the idea of foiling, then the UFO is literally the only way to go because you'll need the stability to learn both sailing and foiling.  Do not bother with a Moth, you will never sail again.  I took out some reasonably experienced people on my Moth and they struggled and will never touch one again.

I think you're better off avoiding a foiling boat altogether until you have a full handle on the tiller and mainsheet feel.

 

 

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2 hours ago, aeiro said:

The sailing club (and all the others in the Toronto area I've found) I'm trying to store it at requires a minimum 2 million liability marine insurance. I'm trying to ask if I can just use my home insurance policy which also could cover my boat, but until they respond I'm still trying to find options that fit in their requirements.

I'm told other foilers have gotten their coverage through Skippers Plan but when I reached out to them they told me (quite rudely) that they do not and will not insure foilers. So I'm not sure if this is a recent change or if others just slipped under the radar.

I had my policy from Progressive cancelled because of my Moth and UFO.  

No matter at this point.  I haven't been able to sail my UFO in two months because the metal rivets broke the carbon mast and I'm still waiting on the replacement mast section a month and a half later.  It's been a bit of a customer service nightmare.  A year and a half wait to get the upgrade kit to put the carbon bracket on the mast.  It finally arrived in mid-July 2021, ordered in April of 2020 or so, and the mast broke a few days after the kit arrived, before we had a chance to put the carbon bracket on.  My UFO is sitting forlorn in the corner of the boat yard.

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8 minutes ago, WCB said:

I had my policy from Progressive cancelled because of my Moth and UFO.  

No matter at this point.  I haven't been able to sail my UFO in two months because the metal rivets broke the carbon mast and I'm still waiting on the replacement mast section a month and a half later.  It's been a bit of a customer service nightmare.  A year and a half wait to get the upgrade kit to put the carbon bracket on the mast.  It finally arrived in mid-July 2021, ordered in April of 2020 or so, and the mast broke a few days after the kit arrived, before we had a chance to put the carbon bracket on.  My UFO is sitting forlorn in the corner of the boat yard.

It seems like there's a recent aversion to insuring foilers. I wonder what happened to cause this - it is going to create a lot of problems for the growth of the UFO/foiler class if insurance companies are refusing to insure it and it is required for waterfront storage.

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8 minutes ago, aeiro said:

It seems like there's a recent aversion to insuring foilers. I wonder what happened to cause this - it is going to create a lot of problems for the growth of the UFO/foiler class if insurance companies are refusing to insure it and it is required for waterfront storage.

Agreed, not sure where it came from other than possibly seeing large foiling sailboats going 30-40knots and insurers realizing that they're at powerboat speeds and no longer a pleasant 4-6knots.  That does change things, like the time my Moth popped up onto foils and a powerboat who thought that they were going to easily cross me suddenly realized that it was going to be a close cross.

I'm going to try Gowrie.  They know sailboats and likely know that a UFO and Moth present little concern in the big picture compared to an AC50...etc.

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39 minutes ago, WCB said:

Agreed, not sure where it came from other than possibly seeing large foiling sailboats going 30-40knots and insurers realizing that they're at powerboat speeds and no longer a pleasant 4-6knots.  That does change things, like the time my Moth popped up onto foils and a powerboat who thought that they were going to easily cross me suddenly realized that it was going to be a close cross.

I'm going to try Gowrie.  They know sailboats and likely know that a UFO and Moth present little concern in the big picture compared to an AC50...etc.

I wouldn't be so sure. Skippers Plan is what everyone in Canada seems to recommend and they occupy the same niche. But even still they're refusing to insure specifically foiling daysailers.

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2 hours ago, WCB said:

A Moth is a big stretch if you have no sailing experience.  If you're attracted to the idea of foiling, then the UFO is literally the only way to go because you'll need the stability to learn both sailing and foiling.  Do not bother with a Moth, you will never sail again.  I took out some reasonably experienced people on my Moth and they struggled and will never touch one again.

I think you're better off avoiding a foiling boat altogether until you have a full handle on the tiller and mainsheet feel.

@mountainclimber11 WCB is dead right. 

Learn on a standard but lively dinghy – a Sunfish or a Laser. Maybe throw in some windsurfing. _Then_ you can look at foilers, and the UFO will be the easiest / most forgiving by a large margin.

Seattle, rush to the water to get into those dinghies before it gets cold. Next summer you'll pick the dinghies up again, go intensive a bit, and maybe hop on a UFO. If you fly to Miami I'll lend you my UFO, but only if you're pretty competent on a Sunfish or Laser.

All of this assumes super fast learning.

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4 hours ago, mountainclimber11 said:

Hello,

Looking to demo or try out a small foiler (moth, dingy, whatever) to figure out which one (if) I want one based on really sailing them, not just what people say about them. No sailing experience. Live in Seattle. Super nice. I get that this is a stretch.

The rest of this message is just details you can probably skip.

I am a lifelong athlete and adventurer who has had dreams all my life of sailing long distance and racing some day . I'm a former financial professional starting a NPO now.

I'm considering writing and filming each demo as well as a complete beginner in sailing, but I'm not 100% on that yet.

I have no sailing experience, but have been on non-foiling sailboats many times. I have serious interest in sailing. I have plans/prints for building a Norwalk Islands Sharpie as well, different project, but related.

I don't suspect someone will let me just hop in their high performance foiler for a spin with no sailing experience. I don't own a boat yet nor have any friends who do. I'm a super friendly personable guy. Where's a guy get experience sailing so all that can happen without having to pay for and waste a ton of time with lessons? I pick things, especially sports, up very fast. 

Just throwing out a bunch of information to see where it goes. The Fulcrum UFO guys sent me here.

Thanks,

Ben

If you can get yourself to Savannah, I’d be happy to teach you on my UFO.  I also have Sunfish to use, so ample opportunity to get you up to speed as fast as you want.  Here’s some footage teaching a friend how to foil.  I sail year round so no rush. 

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3 hours ago, aeiro said:

I wouldn't be so sure. Skippers Plan is what everyone in Canada seems to recommend and they occupy the same niche. But even still they're refusing to insure specifically foiling daysailers.

I'm too curious so I emailed my broker, referencing my UFO policy, to see what's possible. Will report back! I've had coverage for various keelboats and Optis, so I wonder if that makes a difference.

 

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7 hours ago, aeiro said:

The sailing club (and all the others in the Toronto area I've found) I'm trying to store it at requires a minimum 2 million liability marine insurance. I'm trying to ask if I can just use my home insurance policy which also could cover my boat, but until they respond I'm still trying to find options that fit in their requirements.

I'm told other foilers have gotten their coverage through Skippers Plan but when I reached out to them they told me (quite rudely) that they do not and will not insure foilers. So I'm not sure if this is a recent change or if others just slipped under the radar.

Usually home insurance policies cover liability for boats under a certain length. You may want to check that. And your homeowner insurer should be able to cover loss/damage to the boat when it is not on the water.

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27 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Usually home insurance policies cover liability for boats under a certain length. You may want to check that. And your homeowner insurer should be able to cover loss/damage to the boat when it is not on the water.

I would get liability coverage through my tenant insurance. They will not cover loss/damage to the boat when it's not on the water because it's permanently stored away from my shoebox of an apartment. I'm waiting to hear if that's sufficient for any of the sailing clubs I've gotten in touch with. At this point this boat is giving me more of a headache than it's worth so if it gets lost/damaged I'll just write it off and call it an expensive life lesson. Unfortunately I can't sell it under the terms of my work permit in Toronto, unless I lug it all the way to Buffalo, NY somehow (without a car). 

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2 hours ago, aeiro said:

I would get liability coverage through my tenant insurance. They will not cover loss/damage to the boat when it's not on the water because it's permanently stored away from my shoebox of an apartment. I'm waiting to hear if that's sufficient for any of the sailing clubs I've gotten in touch with. At this point this boat is giving me more of a headache than it's worth so if it gets lost/damaged I'll just write it off and call it an expensive life lesson. Unfortunately I can't sell it under the terms of my work permit in Toronto, unless I lug it all the way to Buffalo, NY somehow (without a car). 

Are you sure about this? I am also in ON on a work permit. I am not allowed to sell my car and boat trailer for some complicated reason that I do not fully understand, but the boat is neither registered nor titled since it does not have a motor. As a matter of fact, the state of ON knows nothing about it. my understanding is that I could sell it, just like I could sell anything I took with me when I arrived, bought here, or brought from the US. Or did I screw up something?

There seems to be a couple of UFO owners based in Toronto. Perhaps you can try to reach out to them through local clubs. PM me if I can help in any way

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3 minutes ago, bourdidn said:

Are you sure about this? I am also in ON on a work permit. I am not allowed to sell my car and boat trailer for some complicated reason that I do not fully understand, but the boat is neither registered nor titled since it does not have a motor. As a matter of fact, the state of ON knows nothing about it. my understanding is that I could sell it, just like I could sell anything I took with me when I arrived, bought here, or brought from the US. Or did I screw up something?

There seems to be a couple of UFO owners based in Toronto. Perhaps you can try to reach out to them through local clubs. PM me if I can help in any way

The terms of my work permit say that anything I imported from the USA I have to export. This was in exchange for not having to pay any duties on what was imported from the USA. If you filled out a BSF186(A) (formerly known as B4(A)) form (https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/forms-formulaires/bsf186a-eng.html) you are subject to the same restrictions. I listed the UFO on that form as it was one item I was importing, so while the province of Ontario might not know about it, CBSA certainly does, and I will likely have to account for it if I want to become a permanent resident. 

If you paid duty on your UFO, you might not be subject to the same restrictions. I suppose I have to double check to see how much duty would be owed - maybe it'd be simple as officially importing it and filling out the proper paperwork to sell...

Will PM though, it'd definitely be useful to be connected to other UFO owners here. Thanks :) 

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6 minutes ago, aeiro said:

 

If you paid duty on your UFO, you might not be subject to the same restrictions. I suppose I have to double check to see how much duty would be owed - maybe it'd be simple as officially importing it and filling out the proper paperwork to sell...

Will PM though, it'd definitely be useful to be connected to other UFO owners here. Thanks :) 

Just checked my customs invoice and it’s HST only. Made in the USA so duty free.

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On 8/27/2021 at 12:01 PM, mountainclimber11 said:

Hello,

Looking to demo or try out a small foiler (moth, dingy, whatever) to figure out which one (if) I want one based on really sailing them, not just what people say about them. No sailing experience. Live in Seattle. Super nice. I get that this is a stretch.

Ben

Ben: 

I recommend that you get a bit of experience in a conventional dinghy.   A sunfish, laser, snark, what ever your local sailing center or friends have available.   It will make learning a foiling boat much faster and far less frustrating.   The conventional boat gives you the experience of understanding where the wind is coming from, how it affects the boat, and how to steer and adjust the sails.  This may only require a couple of sessions, but I believe you will find it well worth the effort, and if you have a good instructor the learning will be enjoyable too.   At that point, you will have a far better understanding of basic dinghy handling when you get onto a foiling boat.   

You can start sailing on a foiling boat, I know of two folks how have done just that, but its a much steeper learning curve.   If you have the chance to learn to sail a conventional dinghy first, why wouldn't you make the learning as fun and easy as you can?

Doug

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Hi,

are there any tall UFO owners around here? What is your experience? I am 2m (~ 6 ft 6 inch) tall and around 110 - 115 kg. I very much like the boat, I am just wondering if it would be the right size for me.

Thank you,
Gergely

PS: If there are any owners from Hungary or Lower Austria around here, I would be very interested in a trial run. Please PM me if you would be open to it. :)  

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2 hours ago, kisg said:

Hi,

are there any tall UFO owners around here? What is your experience? I am 2m (~ 6 ft 6 inch) tall and around 110 - 115 kg. I very much like the boat, I am just wondering if it would be the right size for me.

Thank you,
Gergely

PS: If there are any owners from Hungary or Lower Austria around here, I would be very interested in a trial run. Please PM me if you would be open to it. :)  

A couple of us are 1.9m here and sail them just fine.  I'm 6'3".  I use the leeward hiking straps which presents a challenge with the hump in the middle blocking access.  A friend who has one, who is older, made his hiking straps longer.  I may do the same thing because of bigger feet and wanting faster hook up in the leeward straps.  The weather straps are just too close for any marginal days.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Technique and confidence can probably make a big difference.  Also, conditions matter (too much chop makes it a lot tougher). 

I would start early with putting the boat upside down and letting him work at getting it back up.  Try to make it a "fun" challenge. 

As a kid I can remember a "game" where we were doing 360° rolls on a sunfish with the objective of not getting wet.  I got pretty good at it.    

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