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Bendytoys - the good, the bad & the ugly


Maxx Baqustae

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I have my own opinion about Beneteau's as they are "okay" boats but I get things about: Beneteau? French for Hunter! To greatest boats in the planet. Which I don't agree with when there a boats like Swan, Sabre, X-Yachts etc. out there.They are a production boats of course and have there good & bad points. But never heard of real horror stories about some manufacturers in the past. But like opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. But this is a forum right? And I thought I'd ask the huddled masses of SA what the thoughts are.

 

No, I'm not considering buying one but a friend/associate ask me as he works in the high end of the market in both power & sail and might get associated with them. He is always concerned about his reputation or get into a shit show.

 

So what say ye?

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They are the Fords of the yacht world. They use reasonable quality components, the design and manufacturing is done pretty well, but they are not designed or built to be exceptional. As a few examples:

 

1) they come with fixed props, nothing wrong with a fixed prop, but for about $1k more they could have feathering props instead.

2) the deck hardware is acceptably sized but they design for a maximum work input of 50lbs on a winch (the normal max for a fit adult). Going up in size on the winches could reduce that to 25lbs easily, but would add $3k to the cost of a 40' so they don't.

3) cast iron keels...

 

One thing from a seller's perspective, they do not have a history of major problems. They work as intended and as promised.

 

by the same metric...

Catalina -GMC

Hunter - Chevy

Swan - BMW

X-Yachts - Audi

Most J-Boats - Ford Mustang

Some J-Boats - Shelby Mustang

Hinkley - Rolls Royce

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2) the deck hardware is acceptably sized but they design for a maximum work input of 50lbs on a winch (the normal max for a fit adult). Going up in size on the winches could reduce that to 25lbs easily, but would add $3k to the cost of a 40' so they don't.

 

This. So much this.

And many (most) people do not understand this.

I am asked what I think of such-and-such boat and when I comment that the winches really should be upgraded for their intended use, I get push-back like: "We won't ever race the boat; it's just for family cruising."

 

No. Cruisers need large more powerful winches. Racers have brawny college lads on board so muscle isn't an issue but when your cruising crew can't bring the headsail in tighter than a beam reach, you've got a problem.

 

 

by the same metric...

Catalina -GMC

Hunter - Chevy

Swan - BMW

X-Yachts - Audi

Most J-Boats - Ford Mustang

Some J-Boats - Shelby Mustang

Hinkley - Rolls Royce

Not bad. Not bad at all! lol.gif

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I was in the industry for almost 20 years. I would tell my rookie clients that Beneteau, Catalina and Hunter were the Ford, Chevy and Dodge of the sailing industry. Built to a price point. Good boats for weekend sailors or the occasional "cruise" of a week or two. The overwhelming majority of my clients were more interested in creature comforts than they were sailing performance. Biminis, dodgers, electric winches, furling mains, heat and AC, generators, etc. became more and more common.

 

As for properly sized winches and other equipment, my business partner who might have sailed with Noah, certainly with Columbus; used to say that the easier it was to do a task, the more it was that it would be done.

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They are the Fords of the yacht world. They use reasonable quality components, the design and manufacturing is done pretty well, but they are not designed or built to be exceptional. As a few examples:

 

1) they come with fixed props, nothing wrong with a fixed prop, but for about $1k more they could have feathering props instead.

2) the deck hardware is acceptably sized but they design for a maximum work input of 50lbs on a winch (the normal max for a fit adult). Going up in size on the winches could reduce that to 25lbs easily, but would add $3k to the cost of a 40' so they don't.

3) cast iron keels...

 

One thing from a seller's perspective, they do not have a history of major problems. They work as intended and as promised.

 

by the same metric...

Catalina -GMC

Hunter - Chevy

Swan - BMW

X-Yachts - Audi

Most J-Boats - Ford Mustang

Some J-Boats - Shelby Mustang

Hinkley - Rolls Royce

 

Pretty close.

 

As to the gear sizing etc. - everything is upgradeable when ordering - lead keels are a big upcharge, winches can be upsized etc. The local Jenny dealer automatically replaced all the manual heads with electrics in everything over 40'.

 

All you have to do is pay for it. They size things "adequate" to get a competitive advertised price - very much the same as all those auto manufacturers used to do with their thousand page options list. I can remember a column in an auto mag BITD where the guy demonstrated that GM could build literally millions of Camaros with no two exactly alike. You could get a stripped 6 cyl. model for $2200 up to a ZL1 for $9500 (twice the price of a Corvette). Many, if not all the production boats are not unlike that - people just aren't willing to pay $75K more on a 40' to get all that better stuff.

 

A couple of years ago I watched a guy restore an old 32' First that had gone on the rocks (and I do mean rocks). Gouged up the hull pretty well, bent the stanchions & pulpits etc. but no structural damage, no bent keel, no bent rudder etc. Still, it was totaled by the insurance and he got it for scrap price. Fixed it himself and made about 20 grand on resale.

 

I'd take an early 80's First 42 in a heartbeat.

 

A local broker (Copeland) and his family sailed all the way around on a First 38 with no problem.

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I have my own opinion about Beneteau's as they are "okay" boats but I get things about: Beneteau? French for Hunter! To greatest boats in the planet. Which I don't agree with when there a boats like Swan, Sabre, X-Yachts etc. out there.They are a production boats of course and have there good & bad points. But never heard of real horror stories about some manufacturers in the past. But like opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. But this is a forum right? And I thought I'd ask the huddled masses of SA what the thoughts are.

 

No, I'm not considering buying one but a friend/associate ask me as he works in the high end of the market in both power & sail and might get associated with them. He is always concerned about his reputation or get into a shit show.

 

So what say ye?

 

What the fuck is he doing even considering Beneteau if he works in the high end market?!!

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A local broker (Copeland) and his family sailed all the way around on a First 38 with no problem.

 

 

That would be Bagheera, and Andy C and family. They went round at least twice, I think. Childhood friends from Seaview and also Antigua. Good sailors both, however....

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Just FYI - if you go back to the 80s, there is a WIDE variation in quality and sailing ability of the Bendytwos.

But we're not talking about the 80's, are we.

 

They have and never will be high end, simple as that.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

 

I have little expereince with Beneteaus, but a 40.7 loaded is about 16 thousand pounds and hull speed should be over 8 kts. Your description indicates a hard grounding, probably rock. I wonder how many boats could make it through an event like that without major damage. I agree the interior and grid design would make for extensive repairs but most boats built in the last 20 years are made the same way. Perhaps other contributors here have other insights but I suspect any boat in that scenario would be in bad shape.

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

It is more about surviving an 8 kt grounding with repairable damage. Beneteau (and other mfrs) design the boats with a force distribution grid glued into the hull with bulkheads and berths built on top. When there is a severe grounding the grid can separate from the hull. A thorough repair involves inspecting the entire grid - arguably this is impossible without removing everything installed on top which means doing an R&R on virtually the entire interior of the boat.

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^^^ This. The lack of repair ability and the bogged in grid are suspect in my opinion. There is NO accessibility to the structure in places without a swazall and a lot of money.

 

It was Hedge Fence in Vineyard Sound we hit at 7kts, so I misspoke when I said hull speed. We hit hard, stopped but it wasn't full stop and it wasn't a rock. We got off and drove it into the slings. No water ingress.

 

But with the keel off it was an eye opener. Truly a half baked construction method that benefitted only Bene. It was an early 40.7 and we went on to race it hard for a year or so til the owner got bored. I never wear a life jacket ever but did on that boat.

 

I'm not on an a anti Bene crusade, only reporting what I saw first hand and I know their method of construction is nothing I would ever own.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

You haven't got a clue what your talking about...the 40.7 had a keel sump (though IMHO not that well designed)..cast iron keel yes...but what is new about that ..what is the negative outcome other than performance and flush mounted yes...but name one production boat builder who has been employing keel flanges and recessing in the last 15 years...answer not one, as for grid construction it has been successfully used for decades and as for inadequate keel bolts I can't see how they could put more in or of a larger size in the 40.7 unless they backdated the keel design to the late 80's.

 

The biggest problem with the 40.7 was it was at forefront of changes to mass production, an explosion in charter boat sales and unfortunately proper boat maintenance went out the window with all that volume of sales...ie Cheeki Rafiki and other less tragic examples.

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

+1 The First 405 was probably the second best boat they ever built... ceased production in late 80's (IOR influence)...the Farr designed First53 (IMS/CHS driven) which ceased production in the mid 90's was IMHO their best effort...cost a fuckin bomb back then but every feature is the exact opposite of their current IKEA line up (I have travelled on and pulled both vintages apart)...built to go places, bordering on handmade fitout, Sparcraft rig and the very best European big boat hardware going....a classic ...I also loved my 67 VW Kombi ...time moves on unfortunately.
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Rant you could not put bigger bolts in a 40.7 keel if you tried..that said keel bolt size was not a problem with that design....keel design overall arguably yes was an issue....then again I have seen little improvement since over the last decade and a half from most white boat builders in that regard.

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

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Remember they are the workhorses of the charter business.

 

There they get bounced off all manner of things and generally survive.

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Wow, a phresh topic we've never seen before! Sigh.

 

Benes are great boats for the cruising 99% of people out there do - including crossing oceans. So are most all production boats.

 

So feel free to call them Chevys or Fords or Skodas. Who cares? They are very nice boats that get the job of cruising done. And there are thousands and thousands of them out there doing it very successfully if you haven't noticed.

 

And as for "repairability" after throwing her into a rock at 8 knots? Please.

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I own a 2002 40.7 with shoal draft iron keel the the deep draft 40.7's have a lead keel. The boat is very very nice. Grid structure changed the front and rear galvanized keep bolts with stainless like the other keel bolts (Why galvanized?)

I have had it out in 30 + knots upwind/downwind and its an amazing boat - very sturdy. The stock rudder needs some work - balance is a little off too heavy on helm.

 

X-Boat uses galvanized grid - it would also come loose if you hit hard - I like the First 40.7 grid as it seems a little better in excution. If i hit and moved the grid - I would consider boat totaled in both cases ... so

 

Winches are all self tailing and large size - wife likes them very much.

 

again love my boat and would sail it anywhere. BTW we race and cruise

 

Porsche as a boat comparator are you frigging kidding me a Porsche is a VW with leather. Aston Martin is a lux sports car.

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Right on forgot to add that too. if you want a boat to be able to hit that hard and have no damage you will have a really heavy boat. Its not rocket science. I would total the boat if grid came unattached.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

You haven't got a clue what your talking about...the 40.7 had a keel sump (though IMHO not that well designed)..cast iron keel yes...but what is new about that ..what is the negative outcome other than performance and flush mounted yes...but name one production boat builder who has been employing keel flanges and recessing in the last 15 years...answer not one, as for grid construction it has been successfully used for decades and as for inadequate keel bolts I can't see how they could put more in or of a larger size in the 40.7 unless they backdated the keel design to the late 80's.

 

The biggest problem with the 40.7 was it was at forefront of changes to mass production, an explosion in charter boat sales and unfortunately proper boat maintenance went out the window with all that volume of sales...ie Cheeki Rafiki and other less tragic examples.

 

 

Yes I do have a clue, firsthand actually. Any boat that has a flush mounted keel IMHO can't have a real sump. It's a fucked design. My opinion. You're welcome to your own.

 

What does "any other production boat builder" have to do with the original question, Bendytoys? I answered from direct experience. I don't think the question was about other manuf methods.

 

You can argue with yourself. OP, Google Cheeki Rafiki.

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

I also loved my 67 VW Kombi ...time moves on unfortunately.

 

 

That one statement makes your opinion on anything from sailboats to food extremely suspect. ;)

 

I was a big fan of the Beetle but I despised those fuckin' horrible gutless vans. I have never understood why anyone would have one once decent vans became available in the early 60's.

 

The number of times I've been trapped behind one of those miserable things while it wheezed its way up a mountain road at 20 MPH...... :angry:

 

The best thing that air pollution regs ever did was killing those things off.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

You haven't got a clue what your talking about...the 40.7 had a keel sump (though IMHO not that well designed)..cast iron keel yes...but what is new about that ..what is the negative outcome other than performance and flush mounted yes...but name one production boat builder who has been employing keel flanges and recessing in the last 15 years...answer not one, as for grid construction it has been successfully used for decades and as for inadequate keel bolts I can't see how they could put more in or of a larger size in the 40.7 unless they backdated the keel design to the late 80's.

 

The biggest problem with the 40.7 was it was at forefront of changes to mass production, an explosion in charter boat sales and unfortunately proper boat maintenance went out the window with all that volume of sales...ie Cheeki Rafiki and other less tragic examples.

 

 

Any boat that has a flush mounted keel IMHO can't have a real sump.

 

 

I beg to differ - my Hunter has both. The sump is sort of keyed into a notch in the iron keel. Provides good support to the keel in the event of grounding as well as a decent sump.

 

post-95343-0-99206400-1473004138_thumb.jpg

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

I also loved my 67 VW Kombi ...time moves on unfortunately.

 

 

That one statement makes your opinion on anything from sailboats to food extremely suspect. ;)

 

 

 

 

indeed... weighs 1250kg. anything but safe..

 

oh dear...

 

7f835ff94726376b3bc1170d77d2db78.jpg

 

bus-4.jpg

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There are Beneteau models that more than survive a decade or more in the Carribean public bareboat charter trade. They bake in the sun day after day and are used in ways most could never imagine. Those boats will do just fine for the family that never moves the boat more than an hour from the slip. It is always best to define the project at hand and ahead before you pick the tool.

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Our 1987 First 405 is fantastic for our purposes: reasonably fast, responsive, comfortable, seakindly and beautiful. Compared to the 80's-current Catalinas and Hunters I consider it very well built. There are boats built to higher standards but they cost a lot more. I'd prefer a Pogo 12.50 but I don't think my wife would. I prefer it to most modern Beneteaus as well.

I also loved my 67 VW Kombi ...time moves on unfortunately.

That one statement makes your opinion on anything from sailboats to food extremely suspect. ;)

 

I was a big fan of the Beetle but I despised those fuckin' horrible gutless vans. I have never understood why anyone would have one once decent vans became available in the early 60's.

 

The number of times I've been trapped behind one of those miserable things while it wheezed its way up a mountain road at 20 MPH...... :angry:

 

The best thing that air pollution regs ever did was killing those things off.

My high school water polo coach shoehorned a Porsche 911 engine into his van, which otherwise looked bone-stock. That thing could clime a long grade doing 80+ mph without breaking a sweat. The coach told me the only thing that slowed it down were crosswinds and wheel balance. That suspension and steering system were never designed to do much better than 70 mph.

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Yeah if your design criteria includes surviving an 8kt hard grounding with minimal damage your boat will be really heavy, expensive and slow.

 

Agreed. How many automobiles, or for that matter RV's driven into a solid object at xx MPH would not also be totaled?

 

In the auto industry the salvage of such a vehicle is noted on the title. Is there a similar requirement for boats?

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All I ask of Beneteau is that they figure out some kind of decent nonskid and then recall all the 36.7s and put it on. The best nonskid would be maximum grip and minimum tearing up of your skin, not the other way round as they seem to believe.

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The keel mount system they employ in my opinion is totally unacceptable. No sump, cast iron keel mounted flush with the hull, barely adequate bolts and spacing, and bogged in hull liner that once you hit hard (and you will) all but totals the boat.

 

I know first hand since I was at the helm what happens to 40.7 when it hits hard at hull speed. The grid breaks away and 'absorbs' the impact. The owner is left with a huge insurance hassle. Almost the entire interior has to be removed to fix correctly, if correctly is even possible. The boat I was on was being navigated by a pro, "don't worry, keep going, I know these waters like the back of my hand...", Smack. I bent the wheel with my chest.

 

The boat was a mess. It was "fixed" in that everywhere they could, they reglassed the hull liner to the hull. There were areas that were inaccesible that were not fixed, but it wasn't my boat and I stayed out if it.

 

There was also at the Marina I keep my boat a bigger Bene that also ran aground. It was a total loss. The ins co sold it to someone who took months of grinding and it was also 'fixed'. I was aboard it before it was sold. Same situation as the 40.7, a total mess. This boat had a lot of shifted interior parts as well as a broken grid/hull connection. It only left the yard when the owner agreed to sign a doc stating the Yard had nothing to do with the repairs and they were in no way accountable for the repairs.

 

So to me, a Bene is boat waiting to meet the bottom.

You haven't got a clue what your talking about...the 40.7 had a keel sump (though IMHO not that well designed)..cast iron keel yes...but what is new about that ..what is the negative outcome other than performance and flush mounted yes...but name one production boat builder who has been employing keel flanges and recessing in the last 15 years...answer not one, as for grid construction it has been successfully used for decades and as for inadequate keel bolts I can't see how they could put more in or of a larger size in the 40.7 unless they backdated the keel design to the late 80's.

 

The biggest problem with the 40.7 was it was at forefront of changes to mass production, an explosion in charter boat sales and unfortunately proper boat maintenance went out the window with all that volume of sales...ie Cheeki Rafiki and other less tragic examples.

 

 

Yes I do have a clue, firsthand actually. Any boat that has a flush mounted keel IMHO can't have a real sump. It's a fucked design. My opinion. You're welcome to your own.

 

What does "any other production boat builder" have to do with the original question, Bendytoys? I answered from direct experience. I don't think the question was about other manuf methods.

 

You can argue with yourself. OP, Google Cheeki Rafiki.

 

 

DrewR...if your one of my socks you need to get back in the drawer

 

http://sailinganarchy.com/2014/06/08/average-white-boat/

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Several decades ago, the big yacht builders realized that 99% of their products would never see tough conditions. Their customers wanted beds in exchange for their dollars. Winnebagos. Never get farther than 50 miles away from a nice secure harbor.

 

It is bad business to build 100% of your boats to the standards that 1% need.

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

 

What, like starvation?

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

 

What, like starvation?

 

 

Ran out of Grey Poupon. And the holding tank was full.

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A 393 has done 2.5 circumnavigations albeit not round the horn. A good seaman can sail around the world in a 13 foot boat. A bad one will sink the titanic first trip out.

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A 393 has done 2.5 circumnavigations albeit not round the horn. A good seaman can sail around the world in a 13 foot boat. A bad one will sink the titanic first trip out.

 

I wish more people understood this. I think most sailors on forums malign production boats because they just aren't very good sailors.

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A 393 has done 2.5 circumnavigations albeit not round the horn. A good seaman can sail around the world in a 13 foot boat. A bad one will sink the titanic first trip out.

 

I wish more people understood this. I think most sailors on forums malign production boats because they just aren't very good sailors.

 

 

You're right, many production boats aren't very good sailers. As a result, people who aren't very good sailors gravitate to them because they are putzes unaware.

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Presently own a First 36.7 (2004) and used to own First 38s5 (1992)

 

Been on a bunch of other models as well, there are a lot of Beneteaus in San Diego.

 

For my purposes, both served my needs, but as with any boat, you spend a few years getting it the way you want it to be.

 

As well, all of them are built to a price point. That can be a good or bad thing depending on perspective. When I got the 36.7 I wanted a better racer, and was strongly considering a J109, but the price difference was about $60K, and I did not see that much "quality" there for that amount of money.

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

 

What, like starvation?

 

 

Ran out of Grey Poupon. And the holding tank was full.

 

Actually, those are probably the least most likely problems an Oceanis 43 is going to have. I was on the boat on the way to Hawaii, and while we were short of a few things, none of them was related to food or space....and whatever the opposite of starvation is would better describe our food situation.

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

 

What, like starvation?

 

 

Ran out of Grey Poupon. And the holding tank was full.

 

Actually, those are probably the least most likely problems an Oceanis 43 is going to have. I was on the boat on the way to Hawaii, and while we were short of a few things, none of them was related to food or space....and whatever the opposite of starvation is would better describe our food situation.

 

The reference was directed to how much time you have to spend on the water on an Oceanus 43 - those turkeys are slower than the second coming of the Lord.

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Rubbish LP... the Benny Oceanis and Sense series are fuckin fast.....at least in the potential race of first to the bottom...don't think I can think of a more useless sailboat design than those two unless your quite happy with a Winnebago fitted out by IKEA when they were drunk...and with sail handling hardware you see on a Laser... but it seems which most of market drool over.....much like they think of their carbon stick golf clubs and the spar bath in the back of their RV I suppose. Idiots.

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HaHa Jacko, dead right mate. As someone once said on another thread about these abominations, Bass Strait is littered with sunken Bendytoys. Oh well, on a positive note, I guess we can at least call that a good start.

 

What I cannot condone is unconscionable sales people flogging these gimmick laden fat-arsed, Ikea styled lemons to unsuspecting punters with glowing promises of outstanding performance that, to no ones surprise, never eventuates. Not even close.

 

I do agree that they once built some pretty good boats... in the 1980S-90s.

 

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds at the Sydney Boat Show and since says that sales of B shitters has declined to disturbingly low numbers over the last couple of years and are still falling. Maybe the punters are starting to wise up?

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Has there been an Oceanis that has actually crossed an ocean without needing repairs to it's rudder tube?

I don't see that talked about much, but there's been two sinkings and a bunch of near misses from the rudder tube simply delaminating from the hull, the tabbing looks far too undersized.

 

Even that YouTube Oz couple had to do some fairly serious repairs & reinforcement before they even left the Med.

An Oceanis 43 just did Vic-Maui and return. The rudder was solid all the way. There were some other issues though....

 

What, like starvation?

 

 

Ran out of Grey Poupon. And the holding tank was full.

 

Actually, those are probably the least most likely problems an Oceanis 43 is going to have. I was on the boat on the way to Hawaii, and while we were short of a few things, none of them was related to food or space....and whatever the opposite of starvation is would better describe our food situation.

 

Fat?

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Rubbish LP... the Benny Oceanis and Sense series are fuckin fast.....at least in the potential race of first to the bottom...don't think I can think of a more useless sailboat design than those two unless your quite happy with a Winnebago fitted out by IKEA when they were drunk...and with sail handling hardware you see on a Laser... but it seems which most of market drool over.....much like they think of their carbon stick golf clubs and the spar bath in the back of their RV I suppose. Idiots.

 

Jack, you have got to stop all the pussyfooting and tell us what you really feel.

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My 1985 Bene First 375 is a nice ride for what we wanted - fast, fun family day sailing, weekending, offshore race 1-2 a year (about 200 mi each way). It keeps up with most boats costing MUCH MUCH more, and for the most part has proven to be very solid where it counts. Ours sat neglected for a while, and we bought it for a song. Spent a year of Saturday afternoons fixing little things and restoring stuff, and for less than most of us spend on a lesser family car, we have a boat I plan to solo across the Gulf of Mexico for my 60th. Nope, it aint a Hinkley, but it is NOT a POS, either.

 

Best definition for "Quality" I ever learned in my construction career: "Quality is the fulfillment of predetermined goals, values, and objectives." And those goals, values, and objectives are best defined by the one doing the purchasing of said quality. Otherwise, its like walking into a grocery store and asking, "Hey, what does a pound cost?" (Correct response: A pound of what?)

 

I think the older Bene boat just sail better than the newer ones which was a big factor as well in buying this one vs. something younger.

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just a few observations:

out of 800 F40.7 built TWO lost their keels, right? & at least C.Rafiki seemed to have had maintenance issues/badly repaired grounding damage

the gridpan/liner-type of construction is very difficult to repair if the gridpan has broken loose from the hull

even boats aspiring to the high end of the market are built to a pricepoint: X-yachts grid is galvanised (not stainless). the company I work for supplies "stuff" to one of those "high-end-aspiration-yards" & I've talked to their purchasing manager many times: its $$$, $$$, nothing but $$$ that counts (if something can be done a cheaper way without being too obvious - it's done).

What use is the "ideal, perfect boat", if I cannot afford it???

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just a few observations:

out of 800 F40.7 built TWO lost their keels, right? & at least C.Rafiki seemed to have had maintenance issues/badly repaired grounding damage

the gridpan/liner-type of construction is very difficult to repair if the gridpan has broken loose from the hull

even boats aspiring to the high end of the market are built to a pricepoint: X-yachts grid is galvanised (not stainless). the company I work for supplies "stuff" to one of those "high-end-aspiration-yards" & I've talked to their purchasing manager many times: its $$$, $$$, nothing but $$$ that counts (if something can be done a cheaper way without being too obvious - it's done).

What use is the "ideal, perfect boat", if I cannot afford it???

 

Hi tane,

 

I agree with all you say and in particular in your conclusions.

 

Cannot stop myself from commenting on the stainless grid of X-yachts: This has been discussed rather much, conclusion is galvanised is better as stainless would not be stainless if sourrunded airtight by GRP - stainless need some oxygen to remain stainless, whereas galvinised remain galvanised, especially is this is hot galvanized (electro is not as good).

 

Bene is know to be difficult to repair, they have decied to get stiffnes without using cored hulls - guess they get stiffness from internal grid instead. There are always pro and cons, A bullet proof boat would be heavy, expensive and boring. Bene is no worse than many others, and better than some.

 

/J

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HaHa Jacko, dead right mate. As someone once said on another thread about these abominations, Bass Strait is littered with sunken Bendytoys. Oh well, on a positive note, I guess we can at least call that a good start.

 

What I cannot condone is unconscionable sales people flogging these gimmick laden fat-arsed, Ikea styled lemons to unsuspecting punters with glowing promises of outstanding performance that, to no ones surprise, never eventuates. Not even close.

 

I do agree that they once built some pretty good boats... in the 1980S-90s.

 

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds at the Sydney Boat Show and since says that sales of B shitters has declined to disturbingly low numbers over the last couple of years and are still falling. Maybe the punters are starting to wise up?

They still sell plenty, 8 raced to Hobart last year & 11 the year before!

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Scanas ...get up to speed... are you back on the drink again..you have lost your normal common sense mate.

 

Most if not all Benny S2H entries are Firsts and which fuckin rate well as you would expect from the Froggy rating espionage front ..not the fuckin Oceanis/Sense/Ikea Series tubs the subject of derision here...then again I would not want to go outside the sight of land or outside the support of a race in a Benny First built after the 90's...their shit...everyone knows their shit...well all except the merchant banker/stockbroker guy at the boat show with more money than sense who thinks a boat that lets light in from the the outside via the hull has a big feature.

 

The rubbish dumps of the world will be filling up soon with these crap builds.

 

PS. I just sent Beneteau and other mass builders plans and specs of an inflatable ..it could be a Class 40 or a charter caravan depending how much air you put in... and that you can put in the trunk of your car...they all sent me back an exclusivity contract...that's where it's headin in the mass production boat build arena.

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jaramaz:

@cored hulls: I'm trying to educate myself on the subject of "GRP-boats" in preparation for the purchase of a used boat, & what I have come across in relation to cored laminates far exceeded my worst expectations! the conclusion can only be: it will be unavoidable in the deck, but should be avoided at all costs in the hull, particularly under the waterline!!!

the stainless would only be a problem if saltwater could get at it without the access to oxygen - under these conditzions I guess hot-dipped galvanised steel would deteriorate even quicker...

tearing any of these metal grids (salona or x-yachts) loose from the hull would be very difficult to repair too, btw...

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I've had my 2003 36.7 since it was brand new, fresh from the factory. I even saw it come off the line and into float tank.

 

Other than numerous overnight, offshore races around CHS it has been offshore as far south as Daytona (on a delivery) for a return race in the Gulf Stream back to CHS. We've been North to the Chessy Bay and Annapolis via the ICW. It has rounded Cape Fear/Frying Pan numerous times back and forth between CHS and Beaufort, NC. It's been at clocked 14 kts in 30+ kts of wind.

 

Only major issues were a broken mast. (CRW 2010) A standing rig failure, not Bene's fault per say. I blew the engine last Fall, again more my fault then Bene's.

I switched out keels a few years ago too. Did an even trade for a deep keel in 2012. We won our class at CRW in 2008 with the shoal keel and Neil Pryde sails. It was lite air and less than 10 kts. all weekend.

 

It's been a great boat for my family and friends. Sure it needs some work done for spider cracks in the gel coat and I am replacing the teak in the cockpit very soon.

 

We've had it for sale for over 2 years now with no serious offers. We'll continue to use it regularly. We just spent 3 days on it over the weekend zipping and ripping around CHS harbor and poking the nose off shore.

 

Overall I got more than what I paid for and expected out of it. Sure I'd like a sporty J Boat or X yacht with a bow sprit but the price point does not work for us.

 

Cuba and the Bahamas may on the horizon in a year or two since selling it seem futile...

 

Echo. Hull #76

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You can sell anything you want, it just has to be properly priced.

 

After two years (actually well before that) I'd be looking at lowering the price - if I actually wanted to sell it.

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You can sell anything you want, it just has to be properly priced.

 

After two years (actually well before that) I'd be looking at lowering the price - if I actually wanted to sell it.

 

Dismasted, cooked engine, spider cracked deck - all in 13 years? Not exactly #1 on the Yachtworld hit parade by the sound of it.

 

 

Jon, as always positive and generous.

 

/J

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I've reduced it. I'm pretty sure it's on the lower end of the market. It's not a fire sale.

New mast, standing, running rigging and recently repowered sounds more like it. Twist it how ever you want ...

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Echo,

 

Would it be impolite to ask what you have her listed for? I've put my 2003 36.7 shoal draft back on the market at $72,500 and just wanted to see if I'm in the same ballpark.

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My rule for quick sales is to have the cleanest boat (both literally and in terms of upgrades and maintenance) priced near the bottom of the market, not the average. People will naturally start with the cheapest boats of the type and once they've seen two or three of your competitors, they'll recognize the value you're offering.

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HaHa Jacko, dead right mate. As someone once said on another thread about these abominations, Bass Strait is littered with sunken Bendytoys. Oh well, on a positive note, I guess we can at least call that a good start.

 

What I cannot condone is unconscionable sales people flogging these gimmick laden fat-arsed, Ikea styled lemons to unsuspecting punters with glowing promises of outstanding performance that, to no ones surprise, never eventuates. Not even close.

 

I do agree that they once built some pretty good boats... in the 1980S-90s.

 

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds at the Sydney Boat Show and since says that sales of B shitters has declined to disturbingly low numbers over the last couple of years and are still falling. Maybe the punters are starting to wise up?

They still sell plenty, 8 raced to Hobart last year & 11 the year before!

 

declining trend?

assume there'll be more to come, but only 4 entered so far for this year.

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Exactly - I'm currently cleaning up my boat for sale. I have learned over the years that clean, clean, clean is probably the single most important fact in getting offers. No smells, no junk, woodwork polished, bilges & engine room dry & clean and so forth.

 

It seems to be a bigger "attraction" factor than sails, gear etc. They affect the price but they don't grab the buyer the way clean does. Keep the birdshit washed off the deck, keep the deck & cockpit glass waxed, the stanchions polished & so forth.

 

It's amazing how few people do this so it really makes your boat stand out.

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HaHa Jacko, dead right mate. As someone once said on another thread about these abominations, Bass Strait is littered with sunken Bendytoys. Oh well, on a positive note, I guess we can at least call that a good start.

 

What I cannot condone is unconscionable sales people flogging these gimmick laden fat-arsed, Ikea styled lemons to unsuspecting punters with glowing promises of outstanding performance that, to no ones surprise, never eventuates. Not even close.

 

I do agree that they once built some pretty good boats... in the 1980S-90s.

 

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds at the Sydney Boat Show and since says that sales of B shitters has declined to disturbingly low numbers over the last couple of years and are still falling. Maybe the punters are starting to wise up?

They still sell plenty, 8 raced to Hobart last year & 11 the year before!

 

Those were not new boats though. New Firsts are non existent these days.

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Started a Hobart on a 47.7 one year, made it as far as Eden. The furniture didn't like going up wind too much, doors popped off hinges, couldn't open cupboards. On the plus side it was nice sitting on the pick in Twofold Bay having a good fry up breakfast and a shower. I hated racing on that boat, deliveries were awesome though...Built for a purpose.

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What are you doing rifling through the cupboards during the freakin' Hobart race? Twinkies don't weigh that much. Get on the rail!

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What are you doing rifling through the cupboards during the freakin' Hobart race? Twinkies don't weigh that much. Get on the rail!

 

I was trying to find my duck down quilt and satin sheets to go with my golden pillow.

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What are you doing rifling through the cupboards during the freakin' Hobart race? Twinkies don't weigh that much. Get on the rail!

 

I was trying to find my duck down quilt and satin sheets to go with my golden pillow.

 

 

Was the cabin service up to snuff? Goodnight kiss from the attendant, along with a chocolate?

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What are you doing rifling through the cupboards during the freakin' Hobart race? Twinkies don't weigh that much. Get on the rail!

 

I was trying to find my duck down quilt and satin sheets to go with my golden pillow.

 

 

Was the cabin service up to snuff? Goodnight kiss from the attendant, along with a chocolate?

 

 

It wasn't too bad, although they did misplace my monogrammed slippers which was an inconvenience at times.

 

Back on topic, there is a well looked after late 80's First 51 at my club that looks like it was built to last and go anywhere. I'm guessing Frers design?

 

How many of the Beneteau 1 Tonners were built? Ala Coyote? Still racing today?

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Oscar it wasn't a First 51 but a 51' from German Frers "Idylle" series of the mid 80's and built when materials were cheap so they put a lot of glass and teak in them back then. Most were built on consignment to the Moorings/Charter crowd and then a lot of smart people then bought them out of charter pretty cheaply and have kept them going ever since. A classic even with its charter/caravan origins of 30 years ago. Probably the only one better than that and arguably their last decent boat of that size was the Brucr Farr First 53 that took advantage of the intro of IMS and which as a line ceased production in the mid 90's....mainly because they cost a bomb and even Benny were probably losing money on them.

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Love that Idylle 15.5 (51'). That's what a cruiser should look like IMHO. Frers certainly had an eye, didn't he? His Firsts and Swans really stood out.

 

Having stumbled across a First 36.7 foredeck more times than I care to think about, I have to say the present domed coach roof, skinny side deck versions don't have nearly the same appeal.

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Oscar it wasn't a First 51 but a 51' from German Frers "Idylle" series of the mid 80's and built when materials were cheap so they put a lot of glass and teak in them back then. Most were built on consignment to the Moorings/Charter crowd and then a lot of smart people then bought them out of charter pretty cheaply and have kept them going ever since. A classic even with its charter/caravan origins of 30 years ago. Probably the only one better than that and arguably their last decent boat of that size was the Brucr Farr First 53 that took advantage of the intro of IMS and which as a line ceased production in the mid 90's....mainly because they cost a bomb and even Benny were probably losing money on them.

 

Yep. Nice lines. Built like a tank.

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I stand corrected Oscar they also branded the 51 as a First...no doubt as a owners version to differentiate it from the charter version done for Moorings. This vid is a funny time capsule from 30 years ago. Not sure they put in their promo material today that you can take a Benny into the Southern Ocean.

 

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We have a First 38s5, built 1990, Philippe Starck interior in dark stained mahogany, aluminium, marble etc, 2 cabin version with 2 heads, the aft heads huge, luminous and great. Built like a brick shithouse, we dry her out on her keel to scrub. Sails well in all conditions, we have reduced headsails to non overlappers, so a tad underpowered in 0-7 knots, but we rarely race fully crewed. Big asy kite, on the pole, 106m2, pretty wide and full cut, so we are dynamite between 120 and 160 degrees in 7-20 knots. The boat looks elegant, internally and externally has stood up well to years and miles.

 

Lots of people like to knock the brand, mostly without a scrap of experience.

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Slick, a (82?) Beneteau First 38 circumnavigated without too many issues, except for some osmosis that had to be dealt with in Turkey, typical of that era I'm told. Decent enough web site chronicling the whole adventure, Hardly Anything Works.

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Like all production boats they are built to a price. They are cheap for what you get. What are they designed for? For putting a bunch of people aboard in sheltered water for a week or two. These boats are not designed to be long distance blue water cruisers for live aboards.

I have done many deliveries in Beneteaus over thirty years, including across the Atlantic and Pacific. They definitely have weak points. Almost half of the boats have had steering problems. Some of these are maintenance related, some are design. Almost none of the stock emergency steering setups can work out of the box and I make it a point to modify this and actually sail using the emergency tiller before leaving. I am always careful to back off in heavy weather, not let the boat slam etc. On a positive note they have got better.

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Most of the beneteaus I have dealt with recently have pultruded grp rudder stocks. The emergency tiller has a square peg in the end which fits into a corresponding recess in the stock. I have usually glued a fabricated stainless plate with a similar recess into the stock as the grp is too soft for extended use. Also there is no provision for lateral thrust so I have made up an arrangement of plywood and polymer to take the side forces. Out of the box the tiller will often simply fall off the stock in use damaging it.

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Question

 

 

 

and whatever the opposite of starvation is would better describe our food situation.

Answer

gluttony

Once a year I contribute

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I stand corrected Oscar they also branded the 51 as a First...no doubt as a owners version to differentiate it from the charter version done for Moorings. This vid is a funny time capsule from 30 years ago. Not sure they put in their promo material today that you can take a Benny into the Southern Ocean.

 

but those hot shorts !!!

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I stand corrected Oscar they also branded the 51 as a First...no doubt as a owners version to differentiate it from the charter version done for Moorings. This vid is a funny time capsule from 30 years ago. Not sure they put in their promo material today that you can take a Benny into the Southern Ocean.

 

 

 

Different beasts albeit launched at the same period.

Two different underwater designs: a "cheaper" Swan and a caribbean charter-boat

post-6361-0-78365500-1473326947_thumb.jpg

post-6361-0-72220500-1473326971_thumb.jpg

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I stand corrected Oscar they also branded the 51 as a First...no doubt as a owners version to differentiate it from the charter version done for Moorings. This vid is a funny time capsule from 30 years ago. Not sure they put in their promo material today that you can take a Benny into the Southern Ocean.

 

http://youtu.be/LWWEBK75a78

One thing that stands out in that vid. Not once did they show the interior.

Cool.

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As a bit of a tangent, can someone explain the whole "splooged-in grid as a structural component for keel support"? I don't get it, it just seems to my non-NA mind as a bad idea.

 

I do understand the logic of molded pans for interior structure; big labor and material savings over stick-built wood furniture. But the keel sump area? Why? When I pull up the sole on my C&C, I see the bottom of the hull, a nice sump area in the integral keel stub as part of the hull molding, and a bunch of athwartship floors fully tabbed to the hull.

 

2015-12-05%2014.29.42_zpsea0nfypz.jpg

 

Seems simple enough. It seems to me a grid structure would appear to involve MORE material, plus the tooling cost for the mold. Is the labor to glass in some floors in a hull with a proper sump/keel stub really that big a deal?

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Yes. and then level those individually installed floors so that the actual floor sits flat. The molded liners have all that and more built in so assembly goes very fast. No alignment - just drop in until it squeezes out goop around all edges. Takes more to make the mold at first, then every hull thereafter goes very fast.

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Yes. and then level those individually installed floors so that the actual floor sits flat. The molded liners have all that and more built in so assembly goes very fast. No alignment - just drop in until it squeezes out goop around all edges. Takes more to make the mold at first, then every hull thereafter goes very fast.

 

Hell, it works for half a million dollar center consoles.

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As a bit of a tangent, can someone explain the whole "splooged-in grid as a structural component for keel support"? I don't get it, it just seems to my non-NA mind as a bad idea.

 

I do understand the logic of molded pans for interior structure; big labor and material savings over stick-built wood furniture. But the keel sump area? Why? When I pull up the sole on my C&C, I see the bottom of the hull, a nice sump area in the integral keel stub as part of the hull molding, and a bunch of athwartship floors fully tabbed to the hull.

 

2015-12-05%2014.29.42_zpsea0nfypz.jpg

 

Seems simple enough. It seems to me a grid structure would appear to involve MORE material, plus the tooling cost for the mold. Is the labor to glass in some floors in a hull with a proper sump/keel stub really that big a deal?

Is that a roll of toilet paper on the settee. Yea, I guess if I was looking at the bilge of a bendy toy I would want to shit my pants too.

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As a bit of a tangent, can someone explain the whole "splooged-in grid as a structural component for keel support"? I don't get it, it just seems to my non-NA mind as a bad idea.

 

I do understand the logic of molded pans for interior structure; big labor and material savings over stick-built wood furniture. But the keel sump area? Why? When I pull up the sole on my C&C, I see the bottom of the hull, a nice sump area in the integral keel stub as part of the hull molding, and a bunch of athwartship floors fully tabbed to the hull.

 

2015-12-05%2014.29.42_zpsea0nfypz.jpg

 

Seems simple enough. It seems to me a grid structure would appear to involve MORE material, plus the tooling cost for the mold. Is the labor to glass in some floors in a hull with a proper sump/keel stub really that big a deal?

Is that a roll of toilet paper on the settee. Yea, I guess if I was looking at the bilge of a bendy toy I would want to shit my pants too.

 

 

Just out of curiosity Al, exactly how many Bennies have you sailed?

 

My guess is a big zero.

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The 2011 NARC rally came up in another thread. The one boat abandoned due to the boat breaking had the rudder tube delaminate, lost steering and started taking on water.

 

Not in the rally, but also abandoned in the same system North East of Bermuda was a Canadian boat coming down. It had the rudder tube delaminate, they lost steering and started taking on water.

 

Neither boat was a C&C.

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As a bit of a tangent, can someone explain the whole "splooged-in grid as a structural component for keel support"? I don't get it, it just seems to my non-NA mind as a bad idea.

 

I do understand the logic of molded pans for interior structure; big labor and material savings over stick-built wood furniture. But the keel sump area? Why? When I pull up the sole on my C&C, I see the bottom of the hull, a nice sump area in the integral keel stub as part of the hull molding, and a bunch of athwartship floors fully tabbed to the hull.

 

2015-12-05%2014.29.42_zpsea0nfypz.jpg

 

Seems simple enough. It seems to me a grid structure would appear to involve MORE material, plus the tooling cost for the mold. Is the labor to glass in some floors in a hull with a proper sump/keel stub really that big a deal?

Keel sumps are irrelevant and tied more to available transverse keel dimensions, not the surrounding structure. Having said that keel sumps in narrow keels are a recipe for disaster.

 

You need to think keel load structure development over time is a bit like offload vehicle development....there are the older fuckers like the Landrover line and Ford/Toyota pickups who up until the late 90's used fuckin great chassis rails or bit like boat stringers in their RV's/SUV's ...weighed a ton but they didn't break....then everyone wanted good gas miles and regulators wanted vehicles with crumple zones and airbags...so some vehicle makers made their offerings lighter and more compliment by getting rid of them big chassis rails entirely and going for a mono construction.

 

Then following if not ahead of current mono car construction...the boat builders started putting in grid pan structures instead of the stringer style which simply replicates that mono car construction objective of weight and material saving....but without the air bags.

 

Done well and maintained grid style works a treat...grids arguably work better than the old stringer style as it spreads the keel loads wider and more effectively into the hull...problem is everyone forgets about the maintenace side, particularly post heavy groundings....that is where grids gets an undeserved bad rap and or because of a shit connection between hull and grid at the time of initial build....and which quite frankly should have the most stringent quality control attached to it compared to other structures in a vessel..but many production builders miss the boat at doing that.

 

BTW I have always liked old big chassied V8 vehicles ...everyone else is then your crumple zone.

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