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Fiberglass repairs are actually easy. You just need someone with a bit more experience to show you and get your hands sticky the first time. Or Russell Brown's book because he is very good at explaini

No, it's you dude.  Bad attitude.  Dumb questions are fine but belligerent ignorance is unacceptable.  Stop pissing in the pool.

Look guys and gals, Gunboat aren't involved in the "soma project" so really can't comment - there's a thread for that if you feel like it - what I can do is stick to the thread and update you all on t

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On 7/1/2019 at 11:37 PM, soma said:

I've been going from the 4 leg cascade on the boom to the spreader tips, then around the front of the mast, to the other spreader tip, back down to the boom. I hung friction rings from the upper diamond but if it's purpose built then they install fairleads in the spreader tips, then up to through-mast ferrules, and then to the next spreader. You have adjustment at the back of the boom if needed via a lashing. It's a continuous arrangement so the windward side "eases" to the leeward side. If the boom is ~8"' above the coachroof upwind then its ~6" above at rest. As the main goes up it relieves the lazy jacks. Then you never touch them again. 

It’s a lot of levered load on the spreaders. Probably 4x the load compared to a topping lift?

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15 hours ago, Greenflash said:

 

...As with Condor the Aircon (Reverse cycle) will be a top priority, at least this time we don't need to crack ice off the deck before leaving the dock!

Does the reverse cycle aircon use air or seawater to heat? If seawater, is it integrated into one of the engine cooling setups (I doubt it would have its own thru-hull)?

-And has anyone thought about station tubes in the boat? I've never heard of this concept, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Say it's an uncomfortably hot day. You are either under sail w/autopilot, or anchored, and reclining indoors while reading. Rather than closing all doors, windows, ports and cooling the whole saloon, you open a valve and direct a flexible tube to blow cool air on your face which you can breathe in. Or even connect to a breathe mask. And you have similar ports next to your pillows in the cabins. Much less work / strain / energy on the system. Has such a system come up in design discussions?

*I'm actually curious about water temps in a new reverse cycle system. How cold is too cold for seawater to not help with heating? How warm to not help with cooling? Thank you.

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8 hours ago, EarthBM said:

It’s a lot of levered load on the spreaders. Probably 4x the load compared to a topping lift?

Think about it another way. How much force do the diamonds exert on the swept spreaders going upwind? 20mm EC6 diamonds will put a LOT more force on the spreader than 10mm spectra lazyjacks. (The lazyjacks are slack when the sail is up). 

I asked the mast engineer before I did it for the first time. He just laughed and said "you're fine". 

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Think about it another way. How much force do the diamonds exert on the swept spreaders going upwind? 20mm EC6 diamonds will put a LOT more force on the spreader than 10mm spectra lazyjacks. (The lazyjacks are slack when the sail is up). 

I asked the mast engineer before I did it for the first time. He just laughed and said "you're fine". 

What percentage of that diamond load as you mention is in 'dock tune'?

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8 hours ago, dcnblues said:

*I'm actually curious about water temps in a new reverse cycle system. How cold is too cold for seawater to not help with heating? How warm to not help with cooling? Thank you.

We use those to heat our homes in Finland, air to air mode mainly. Good for -25C if the heat pump is designed for it, eg you put 2,5kW into the system and get 3,5kW heat out of it. So seawater will always help with heating.

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17 hours ago, soma said:

Think about it another way. How much force do the diamonds exert on the swept spreaders going upwind? 20mm EC6 diamonds will put a LOT more force on the spreader than 10mm spectra lazyjacks. (The lazyjacks are slack when the sail is up). 

I asked the mast engineer before I did it for the first time. He just laughed and said "you're fine". 

I am NOT a fan of taking the lazyjack load to the spreaders as a topping lift replacement.  The risk is from the mainsheet.  If someone looses track of fixed lazyjacks (or does not slack adjustable lazys) while winding on the mainsheet, then lazys can become quite loaded.  This is the type of human error that would occur while racing, or at 3am.  Worst case scenario, the spreader tip gets pulled out of column.  I have seen Lazys pop on a cat that did not have good boom visibility from the mainsheet electric winch.  Fortunately,  those lazyjacks lead to a dead end on the mast and not the spreaders.  Continuous diamonds (ec6, etc) that bend over the spreader tips are particularly sensitive to column issues.    If it was my boat I would play it safe and treat the spreaders as sacred.

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I have always used lazy jacks to support the boom that terminated at the sides of the mast, but on smaller boats than Soma is talking about. I think it's an interesting idea to run them to the spreaders to make hoisting easier. It seems like the spreader tips would need to be connected to the diamond wires in a way that keeps them from moving downwards, but with swept back spreaders and tight diamond wires it seems cool. Topping lifts are a pain in the ass.

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I have always used lazy jacks to support the boom that terminated at the sides of the mast, but on smaller boats than Soma is talking about. I think it's an interesting idea to run them to the spreaders to make hoisting easier. It seems like the spreader tips would need to be connected to the diamond wires in a way that keeps them from moving downwards, but with swept back spreaders and tight diamond wires it seems cool. Topping lifts are a pain in the ass.

If they are just used as lazyjacks, I'm pretty certain going to the spreaders is pretty risk free.  What has intrigued me is lazyjacks doing double duty as jacks and as a topping lift.  I should thing that adds a whole new possibility to the load scenario.   But count me as another who is not enamored with topping lifts...

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 12:59 AM, Veeger said:

   But count me as another who is not enamored with topping lifts...

Explain why...…..lazyjacks can serve as a topping lift, but on most cruising boats the lazyjacks are connected to a sailbag……..add to that, many times the lazy jacks are connected to a single point to lower/loosen them.

Topping lift is a pretty simple solution to holding up the boom if you don't have a vang……………when the main is up, you can always loosen it, normally the sail don't care what side it's on.

I like topping lifts …….as you can tell from my post:D

I'm not enamored with a non topping lift boat. Always seems like more personel admin, and when the shtf, I can guarantee a boom crash on the salon house.

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All I can say is that I have 100,000 trouble-free miles without a topping lift. On a long enough timeline could something go wrong? Sure. But that hasn't happened to me (yet). 

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I do not like being limited to only being able to hoist the main on one side of the topping lift.  Sure, you loosen it later, but if the main goes up on the 'wrong' side, there is still chafe... if even from slatting around.

Lazyjacks that are too close together also catch potentially 3 full battens when hoisting.  I am careful but it adds to the little details I have to watch for when hoisting.

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I have experienced situations when having a topping lift to prevent the boom from moving up and down was useful. For example in low wind but large waves, when the mainsail is "breathing" or "pumping" and exerting a heavy dynamic load on blocks and sheets, I find it useful to tighten the topping lift and immobilize the boom.

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-While we're on the topic of working on the Boom, I'm not sure we've had any details about the (presumably) latest solar panels on the roof. I know nothing about them other than the tech changes fairly rapidly. Are they so durable one can walk around on the roof with deck shoes / sandals and not worry about them, or do they require a more tender approach (weight limits, barefoot only, whatever)? And what is typical maintenance? Washing off with fresh water every couple of days and wiping / squeegeeing off? 

-How about the sunroof? When closed, can one stand on it? I'm guessing it's not recommended, but it probably has a weight limit too (I'm on the heavier side at 240lbs but don't get me wrong, I LOVE the gorgeous and nicely drained sunroof).

-The latest email is a pleasure to read, very informative and nicely written: GUNBOAT 68 – Outstripping the Wind

-And I get that there's probably enough variation in each build that we're talking about a small handful of different custom installs, which would make exact or even generalized numbers difficult and the roller furling is still not quite there enough for Gunboat to recommend it, but I'd still sure love some weight specs on the boom options. (And actually, you couldn't forestall interest in rolling furlers better than giving us more details on the reefing setup on Condor. What was missing during the helicopter shoot to let that reef hang loosely out like that, and how clever are the hooks and does anyone need to be on the roof to reef?).

-I also still fantasize about single-handing this beauty, so quick question: are latest autopilots capable of tacking? I can't imagine an upwind tack is that difficult compared to some of the sophisticated capabilities I know they already possess, but I haven't heard of that one capability yet.

-Thanks again to Gunboat for being so competent in keeping great information, nicely packaged, coming out to feed obsessed fans such as myself...

 

 

box section carbon boom.jpeg

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19 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

I have experienced situations when having a topping lift to prevent the boom from moving up and down was useful. For example in low wind but large waves, when the mainsail is "breathing" or "pumping" and exerting a heavy dynamic load on blocks and sheets, I find it useful to tighten the topping lift and immobilize the boom.

Yeah, I'm also curious about how these boats sail, especially downwind. I suspect there's something about generating your own wind so efficiently that negates this need, but I'd love to know whether Condor, in crossing the frigging Atlantic Ocean, ever bothered rigging a (gybe) preventer on the boom.

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The image from my post above and the quote below are from GUNBOAT 68 – Standing Tall

Quote

"Our VPP studies show the Regatta rig, combined with the longer daggerboards, will give you boat speed increases of up to 12% upwind and up to 20% downwind."

Do I understand this correctly? I'm guessing that's within a certain wind range, 0-X. But that once the wind gets to a certain velocity, i.e. need to reef, there are no advantages to the regatta rig. (But longer boards might still help upwind in high wind). Right?

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16 hours ago, dcnblues said:

While we're on the topic of working on the Boom, I'm not sure we've had any details about the (presumably) latest solar panels on the roof. I know nothing about them other than the tech changes fairly rapidly. Are they so durable one can walk around on the roof with deck shoes / sandals and not worry about them, or do they require a more tender approach (weight limits, barefoot only, whatever)? And what is typical maintenance? Washing off with fresh water every couple of days and wiping / squeegeeing off? 

I'll leave specific details to @Greenflashbut I can tell you I was able to walk around on the roof of 68.01 in boat shoes without being yelled at.... They appear to be softer than previous models I've seen on the older Gunboats with more of a gel/sponge-like consistency and a diamond tread outer layer. 

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14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-While we're on the topic of working on the Boom, I'm not sure we've had any details about the (presumably) latest solar panels on the roof. I know nothing about them other than the tech changes fairly rapidly. Are they so durable one can walk around on the roof with deck shoes / sandals and not worry about them, or do they require a more tender approach (weight limits, barefoot only, whatever)? And what is typical maintenance? Washing off with fresh water every couple of days and wiping / squeegeeing off?

Solar panels are Solbian fully walk-on panels with usual soft deck shoes or barefoot (but will be hot in sun of course!). Wash like you would a deck, it's just plastic you're cleaning - soap and water. Self dry or wipe dry.

14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-How about the sunroof? When closed, can one stand on it? I'm guessing it's not recommended, but it probably has a weight limit too (I'm on the heavier side at 240lbs but don't get me wrong, I LOVE the gorgeous and nicely drained sunroof).

You can stand on it, despite there being a big "NO STEP" sign on it. I've seen guys do it, it will take it - I think they are most worried about hurting the seals or mechanism than the polycarbonate. For example, if it were half open it may get damaged. Or if fully open you will fall through! So best to get used to never stepping there. 

14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-The latest email is a pleasure to read, very informative and nicely written: GUNBOAT 68 – Outstripping the Wind

 

Thank you, we always enjoy putting these technical article together. 

14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-And I get that there's probably enough variation in each build that we're talking about a small handful of different custom installs, which would make exact or even generalized numbers difficult and the roller furling is still not quite there enough for Gunboat to recommend it, but I'd still sure love some weight specs on the boom options. (And actually, you couldn't forestall interest in rolling furlers better than giving us more details on the reefing setup on Condor. What was missing during the helicopter shoot to let that reef hang loosely out like that, and how clever are the hooks and does anyone need to be on the roof to reef?).

What was missing were some sail ties! :blink: V booms are twice the weight. "Wings" will add 30% more weight. Rolling furling I do not have good data to share, but it has been discussed here several times. 

14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-I also still fantasize about single-handing this beauty, so quick question: are latest autopilots capable of tacking? I can't imagine an upwind tack is that difficult compared to some of the sophisticated capabilities I know they already possess, but I haven't heard of that one capability yet.

Yes you can tack, they actually put you 5-10 deg off the wind and slowly bring you back up. Pretty cool! 

14 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-Thanks again to Gunboat for being so competent in keeping great information, nicely packaged, coming out to feed obsessed fans such as myself...

 

I think you ask questions some people may be thinking, but are too shy to ask and that is great. Happy to help.

16 hours ago, dcnblues said:

Yeah, I'm also curious about how these boats sail, especially downwind. I suspect there's something about generating your own wind so efficiently that negates this need, but I'd love to know whether Condor, in crossing the frigging Atlantic Ocean, ever bothered rigging a (gybe) preventer on the boom.

Condor has an integrated Gybe preventer that is led fwd to the pit. It doubles as a backup mainsheet if the hydraulic one gives up the ghost. I like this because you can leave it on a winch and get rid of it very quickly if required, rather than a fixed strop/purchase that has to be dealt with between the end of the boom and the padeye on the boat.

The boats still sail downwind although never DDW, especially in delivery mode. 

15 hours ago, dcnblues said:

Do I understand this correctly? I'm guessing that's within a certain wind range, 0-X. But that once the wind gets to a certain velocity, i.e. need to reef, there are no advantages to the regatta rig. (But longer boards might still help upwind in high wind). Right?

We tried to give a few data points without getting into too much detail. That one will work around 12 knots true wind speed. You're partly right of course, but bear in mind the regatta rig rotates and yes the boards add more lift. Those are VPP values that are based on the identical platform apart from rig and boards. Consider that a 'regatta' focused owner would likely do other things to increase performance, for example: bigger/faster winches, slightly higher end sails and bigger sail wardrobe, lighter & higher spec rigging, more focus on weight meaning bigger compromises and removing weight and liquids before racing, being willing to hire professional crew for regattas, etc. 

So the the real world match race between the cruisy boat and a reefed regatta boat will depend on several factors. That being said, a fully loaded regatta boat and cruising boat sailing in heavier conditions will not have considerable differences in performance. The nice thing is - it isn't black or white - you can choose the setup that suits your program best and end up somewhere in the middle. 

 

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14 hours ago, Greenflash said:

Consider that a 'regatta' focused owner would likely do other things to increase performance, for example: bigger/faster winches, slightly higher end sails and bigger sail wardrobe, lighter & higher spec rigging, more focus on weight meaning bigger compromises and removing weight and liquids before racing, being willing to hire professional crew for regattas, etc. 

So the the real world match race between the cruisy boat and a reefed regatta boat will depend on several factors. That being said, a fully loaded regatta boat and cruising boat sailing in heavier conditions will not have considerable differences in performance. The nice thing is - it isn't black or white - you can choose the setup that suits your program best and end up somewhere in the middle. 

Thanks for the great info. I agree, the design and the way you've set up the company makes for a great range of options.

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On 7/9/2019 at 9:17 AM, Veeger said:

I guess I'm also keenly interested in this lazy jack = topping lift solution as well.  Would love to see some more clarification and pics...

 

On 7/9/2019 at 9:17 AM, Veeger said:

I guess I'm also keenly interested in this lazy jack = topping lift solution as well.  Would love to see some more clarification and pics...

Any one? Pics, description on setup, etc.

Am I going to have to drive land of salmon colored khaki shorts and docks overflowing with Gunboats and have a look for myself?

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 1:22 AM, soma said:

All I can say is that I have 100,000 trouble-free miles without a topping lift. On a long enough timeline could something go wrong? Sure. But that hasn't happened to me (yet). 

Single handed :D

When you've stuck the main away, how does the boom stay off the coachroof?

I also had one of my lazy jack blocks implode a few days ago not too long after my 11 year old wrapped a lobster pot around the frigging prop in Stonington, ME. Nothing like a cluster of problems in the channel to appreciate twin screws and a self tacking jib.

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 For a true perspective of these boats performance how about some course lengths, elapsed times, wind speeds like we used to see for the Newport Unlimited, quite sobering on a windward/leeward course.

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On 7/20/2019 at 1:41 AM, mrybas said:

 

Any one? Pics, description on setup, etc.

Am I going to have to drive land of salmon colored khaki shorts and docks overflowing with Gunboats and have a look for myself?

 

On 7/20/2019 at 11:19 PM, mpenman said:

Single handed :D

When you've stuck the main away, how does the boom stay off the coachroof?

I also had one of my lazy jack blocks implode a few days ago not too long after my 11 year old wrapped a lobster pot around the frigging prop in Stonington, ME. Nothing like a cluster of problems in the channel to appreciate twin screws and a self tacking jib.

I don't have pics of the Gunboat 68 setup, but the HH55 (among others, I'm sure) uses the same system. I've just taken some screen snips from two videos.

The first one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka-gfZRD3wc
Sadly it's black on black on a dark day but we can see some detail of how the lazy jacks pass through the spreaders and attach to the mast: 
Capture.thumb.JPG.2eabadc7584d654d75e8bb0e8b0556a6.JPG

And some pics of how the jacks attach to the boom. Someone raised a concern about Lazy Jacks often being tied to a sailbag, maybe this system only works with "wing"-style (park avenue, framed, cradled, whatever other names they may have) booms.

12.JPG.da23aae0e1e9947ed9193402c9ec2ba3.JPG

Finally, here's a pic of another HH55, a little easier to see the jacks and the fact that there's no topping lift, taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts4rvcHB0cA

13.thumb.JPG.7041296e1ab852b6f30fa6618a4b03f6.JPG

Obviously these boats have dedicated attachment points on the mast but Soma described his retro-fitted setup in post #595 

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18 hours ago, boardhead said:

quite sobering on a windward/leeward course.

the performance of a luxury cruising cat on a W/L course is about as relevant as the performance of an IACC boat on a reaching course...

it's not what they are designed for..., 

Cats generally aren't great on W/L courses, as the upwind angles are quite wide compared to racing monohulls, (or even racer cruisers), and these boats are no different. If W/L is a priority.., probably better to choose a different platform. 

However, their upwind performance is not terrible - you will get there. A TP52 will get there before you.., but with more crew and no cruising comforts.

Without identifying a specific boat.., in flat-ish water, at say 15kts TWS,  these boats are tacking through about 90deg, with BSP = ~10-12kts depending on which specific boat we are talking about. In lighter winds, or in waves, the angles open up.., getting quite wide, say over 100deg,  in really light air

having said that, I think that the Fr0 sheeted inside the shrouds might be a bit of game changer in light winds, for boats that want to go that way... It's very fast...

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

having said that, I think that the Fr0 sheeted inside the shrouds might be a bit of game changer in light winds, for boats that want to go that way... It's very fast...

 

Does anybody know where exactly the sheeting points on that J0/FR0 sail are? The sheet go inside the shrouds to ???, the aft beam, not the coachroof, but where exactly? Also, the sheets must run pretty close to the bimini...

Just curious.

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3 minutes ago, Whiskey.T said:

 

Does anybody know where exactly the sheeting points on that J0/FR0 sail are? The sheet go inside the shrouds to ???, the aft beam, not the coachroof, but where exactly? Also, the sheets must run pretty close to the bimini...

Just curious.

a turning block just next to (outboard of) the winch on the aft cross beam - just inboard of the steps down the transom.

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4 hours ago, us7070 said:

I think that the Fr0 sheeted inside the shrouds might be a bit of game changer in light winds, for boats that want to go that way... It's very fast...

I stole that from Fujin. We needed to compete with the HH66's cabin top headsail. HH had to add a lot of carbon to get the coachroof to handle the sheet loads. The aft beam on the GB68 was already beefed up. We had to trim the aft edge coachroof to get a decent sheet lead, which sacrificed some shade, but low wind performance was a goal worth pursuing. 

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8 hours ago, us7070 said:

...Cats generally aren't great on W/L courses, as the upwind angles are quite wide compared to racing monohulls, (or even racer cruisers), and these boats are no different.

..A TP52 will get there before you.., but with more crew and no cruising comforts.

[GB 68 is] Substantially lighter, state of the art hull shapes which, by the way, go through swells instead of over them, and deep symmetrical daggerboards which can both be left down upwind, and they're 'no different' from a 'general' catamaran? 

VMG upwind is inferior to a TP52? I'd find that hard to believe as I was on a 52 trying to get out of the Golden Gate into 14 knots and it couldn't get out of it's own way with tall windage and inefficient  hull shape heeled over (granted that boat was made a few decades ago). 5 degrees further off the wind than the 52, but 5-10 knots faster (just my estimate) would get you there first, imho. I could be wrong, but I think the more reasonable result would be someone yelling "Wipeout!"

Sorry if this was posted before, but I can't remember: Condor made it to the race in the Caribbean in time but didn't race? Do I have that right?

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4 hours ago, dcnblues said:

[GB 68 is] Substantially lighter, state of the art hull shapes which, by the way, go through swells instead of over them, and deep symmetrical daggerboards which can both be left down upwind, and they're 'no different' from a 'general' catamaran? 

VMG upwind is inferior to a TP52? I'd find that hard to believe as I was on a 52 trying to get out of the Golden Gate into 14 knots and it couldn't get out of it's own way with tall windage and inefficient  hull shape heeled over (granted that boat was made a few decades ago). 5 degrees further off the wind than the 52, but 5-10 knots faster (just my estimate) would get you there first, imho. I could be wrong, but I think the more reasonable result would be someone yelling "Wipeout!"

Sorry if this was posted before, but I can't remember: Condor made it to the race in the Caribbean in time but didn't race? Do I have that right?

You were on a TP52 "that couldn't get out of its own way" or on a 20 year old 52 foot boat? The second I believe, the first surprises me. TP52 polar below says 8 knots boat speed at 30 deg wind angle in 15 knots of wind...that would suggest the ability to get out of the Golden Gate

image.png.fc0409a491e71f64240f2915a11aa961.png

 

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13 hours ago, KC375 said:

You were on a TP52 "that couldn't get out of its own way" or on a 20 year old 52 foot boat? The second I believe, the first surprises me. TP52 polar below says 8 knots boat speed at 30 deg wind angle in 15 knots of wind...that would suggest the ability to get out of the Golden Gate

Not relevant to the general discussion, but maybe there was a contrary current?

3kn currents are common in that location. At 30 deg the VMG is cut in half, minus 3kn because of the current and not much speed is left to get out.

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

Pretty sure the polar shows 8kt VMG

In 30kt of wind...

Looks to be around 7 in 15kt at ~37deg TWA, which is pretty damn high!

Of course this would be in flat water so in a chop you wouldn't be able to stay in the groove and trim that tight so it would probably be a bit lower, maybe 6kt VMG?

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2 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Pretty sure the polar shows 8kt VMG

As @Airwick already mentioned, if you look on the graph for the max VMG, you find it at ~37 deg and it is around 7 knots (in 15kn of wind).

But the message I responded to mentioned 8 knots at 30 degrees. That speed is just the speed on the water, not the VMG (let alone max VMG). To find the VMG, you can project on the left axis, or you can multiply the speed by the cosine of the angle. The two methods are mathematically equivalent.

I could be wrong of course, that wouldn't be the first time. And also I agree that it isn't super relevant. You're absolutely right that max VMG is more relevant here.

 

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Obviously the cats have a lot of frontal area so they really would slow down trying to point too high but if this is true, 11kt at 45TWA is just about 8kt VMG

On 7/23/2019 at 6:22 AM, us7070 said:

Without identifying a specific boat.., in flat-ish water, at say 15kts TWS,  these boats are tacking through about 90deg, with BSP = ~10-12kts

So this means these cats and TP52 should be pretty close upwind, with a slight advantage to cats. As a side note I vaguely remember reading at report from a GB66 (I think) that shadowed the Volvo fleet a few years ago and was achieving similar VMG upwind.

If I had to guess I would think the cats would fall behind on the downwind legs to a TP52, which is where the would lose in a WL course. The TP52 is going to be very slippery (not to mention they have huge kites) and really get going and be able to sail deeper angles than the cats.

If you think about evolution of sailing performance, modern monos have been getting faster and faster downwind (without that much gains upwind) while the multis are mainly getting faster upwind. It seems in a lot of cases, the multis will start making the biggest gains upwind as the wind picks up (where the planing monos that keep up downwind still hit a wall in boatspeed once they are fully powered up).

I have definitely found this on a smaller scale sailing an F-24 with a range of sporty monos.

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4 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

Not relevant to the general discussion, but maybe there was a contrary current? 

3kn currents are common in that location. At 30 deg the VMG is cut in half, minus 3kn because of the current and not much speed is left to get out.

Of course! I think you nailed it. I was just rail meat and distracted by talking to someone's pretty wife, so wasn't paying attention to current which is normally second nature. My reference point was IOD's and J boats, and it took us forever to get out the gate.  I feel dumb in hindsight now... Actually that race (Spinnaker Cup) cemented a perhaps unfair bias against 'bleach bottle' downwind / sled modern designs in comparison to classics with overhangs (but I do understand the design parameters).

Still though, if there can be said to be a 'friendly' rivalry between multihulls and monos, I'd love to see another equivalent of Wipeout (Safari Wipe Out Charter) flaunting Gunboat speed.

Or is this counter-productive to sales by making mono enthusiasts defensive / pissed off? Or perhaps it's killing a butterfly with a sledgehammer?

Good post Airwick, but I'm still confused. Wouldn't the same VMG arguments apply downwind? Sure a TP52 could sail deeper, but no faster than the wind. Would not a GB68 at shallower angles, but faster than the wind (and not dragging ballast) kill in terms of VMG? I'm not being argumentative, I'd really like to know. I think listing the monohull raceboats that would lose to a GB68 on a W/L course would be good to know. Bragging rights are also good marketing...

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49 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

I'm not being argumentative, I'd really like to know. I think listing the monohull raceboats that would lose to a GB68 on a W/L course would be good to know.

Well I'm not an naval architect so I don't claim to know all the details but I'm partly extrapolating what I have experienced sailing a (much smaller) multihull in mixed mono fleets and applying physics/logic to explain that... From what I can see looking at trackers on races like the C600 etc... it appears that similar things are happening for bigger boats as well.

I think the main issue is that cats are more sticky in the light stuff because having 2 hulls results in more wetted surface, which is why multis do worse relative the monos when the speeds are low.
Modern racing monohulls have deep keels with bulbs so are quite stable while still being quite light. They also have hull shapes that allow them to get on a plane easily and are just really efficient going downwind (where the lateral stability of a multi is mostly wasted). So while the GB can achieve high boatspeeds when powered up thanks to it's stability (and relatively easily driven narrow hulls), it's a much heavier boat with more wetted area which means it just can't achieve the same VMG downwind as a light planing mono (where it can't take advantage of the stability).

Also keep in mind that this is hardly a fair comparison: put comfy cabins, central AC, bowthrusters and all the goodies from these cats on a TP52 and it will slow down a lot! If you designed it for that it wouldn't look like at a TP52 anymore and it wouldn't plane downwind in 15kt either (but it might not be that much slower upwind assuming a 60'-70' long hull) 
Conversely, the multi equivalent to a TP52 would look more like a Multi 50, which would eat it alive!

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10 hours ago, Lat21 said:

as long as it's blowing 15 or more

The video looks like a reach so there is no questions there (based on the polar above, even an F-24 would blast past a TP52 reaching in 15kt)...

I'm guessing it's a bit less of a "blow by" around a windward leeward course, and at some point as the wind gets lighter the TP52 will have better VMG  both up and down.

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I can't think of any head-to-head that a TP52 beat a Gunboat. The old rule of thumb that seems to hold true is a Gunboat is as fast as a Grand Prix monohull of similar length, or as fast as a performance cruiser 1.5x the length. The only caveat to that is older, non-turbo'd Gunboats like Chim Chim are now over 15 years old. Grand Prix monos have come a long way. We saw a LOT of Caro 65' mono) this past race season on Chim Chim. Caro is about as fast a cruiser as you can get before you go full Grand Prix.

In this year's C600 we beat Tala (TP52 who finished in 2nd on corrected) by about 4 hours on the water. Fujin beat Tala by about 7 hours. Of course, that is averaged across all legs, but even on the beats we were taking time out of them. I think it's hard for a heavy GB style boat to take time out of a TP on a dead run, but I'd bet on a GB on all other points of sail.

 

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9 minutes ago, soma said:

I can't think of any head-to-head that a TP52 beat a Gunboat. The old rule of thumb that seems to hold true is a Gunboat is as fast as a Grand Prix monohull of similar length, or as fast as a performance cruiser 1.5x the length. The only caveat to that is older, non-turbo'd Gunboats like Chim Chim are now over 15 years old. Grand Prix monos have come a long way. We saw a LOT of Caro 65' mono) this past race season on Chim Chim. Caro is about as fast a cruiser as you can get before you go full Grand Prix.

In this year's C600 we beat Tala (TP52 who finished in 2nd on corrected) by about 4 hours on the water. Fujin beat Tala by about 7 hours. Of course, that is averaged across all legs, but even on the beats we were taking time out of them. I think it's hard for a heavy GB style boat to take time out of a TP on a dead run, but I'd bet on a GB on all other points of sail.

 

This brings up a question about the older Gunboats.  Given modern technology in masts, rigging, sails, etc, how much performance could a boat like Chim Chim gain by “turboing” the boat?

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28 minutes ago, HotCarNut said:

This brings up a question about the older Gunboats.  Given modern technology in masts, rigging, sails, etc, how much performance could a boat like Chim Chim gain by “turboing” the boat?

Short answer, about 12%  

Elvis and Chim Chim are sisterships. Elvis is the fastest Gunboat and is essentially as turbo'd as a 62 can be. Chim has upgraded boards but still has the original mast/longeron/boom. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

What ever happened to the original rig that was replaced on ELVIS. I saw it for sale after they started the turbo job.

It's on "Starr of Florence", a NC-built, post-BK Gunboat 55 hull. 

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14 hours ago, soma said:

I can't think of any head-to-head that a TP52 beat a Gunboat. The old rule of thumb that seems to hold true is a Gunboat is as fast as a Grand Prix monohull of similar length, or as fast as a performance cruiser 1.5x the length. The only caveat to that is older, non-turbo'd Gunboats like Chim Chim are now over 15 years old. Grand Prix monos have come a long way. We saw a LOT of Caro 65' mono) this past race season on Chim Chim. Caro is about as fast a cruiser as you can get before you go full Grand Prix.

In this year's C600 we beat Tala (TP52 who finished in 2nd on corrected) by about 4 hours on the water. Fujin beat Tala by about 7 hours. Of course, that is averaged across all legs, but even on the beats we were taking time out of them. I think it's hard for a heavy GB style boat to take time out of a TP on a dead run, but I'd bet on a GB on all other points of sail.

 

So no numbers for an actual windward/leeward where these boats sailed in the same water, in the same wind, on the same day, in the real world!

Racing in NEMA, back in the day, when middle class working Americans could afford more than pimped out trailer/sailers, the Newport Unlimited brought some  diverse craft together for a true comparison. Why not revive that event to its 1988 heyday where we witnessed 60’ OSTAR boats taking on RC 27’s, F40 and anything brought to the show. In subsequent events I raced my 40’ tri against Red Herring, Steve Clarke’s radical 50’ swing keel mono, Moths and also Cogito, the Little Americas Cup winner, it was fascinating and, like I said, sobering.

Polars and flash shot videos are bar talk.

In the real world a boats ability to perform on all points of sail in a broad range of conditions makes for a safe vessel and the ability to deliver that performance short handed is the fruit of those brave innovators over decades of OSTARs and the like - multihulls!

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Cover for chafe protection? But , hey, this is just so fascinating!

So yesterday morning we were reaching from the mouth of the Sakonnet River on a west south westerly course down to Block Island in a light south easterly carrying a bullet proof, cheap, 2.2 oz nylon Tri Radial and here comes Moonwave, (Gunboat 63?) on a reciprocal course but heading a little higher. I would estimate we were in 90 degrees true and she was in 70 degrees true carrying a pricy, almost masthead, laminate, screacher. Her AIS indicated 5.2 to 6.5 knots while we were making 7.4 to 8.2 knots. My wife and son were still in bed, Summer Magic was running singlehanded.

Why would I spend the extra couple mil?

 

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On 7/24/2019 at 3:27 PM, Airwick said:

...it's a much heavier boat with more wetted area which means it just can't achieve the same VMG downwind as a light planing mono (where it can't take advantage of the stability).

Great post. You're a good writer.

 

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On 7/28/2019 at 3:28 PM, boardhead said:

Cover for chafe protection? But , hey, this is just so fascinating!

So yesterday morning we were reaching from the mouth of the Sakonnet River on a west south westerly course down to Block Island in a light south easterly carrying a bullet proof, cheap, 2.2 oz nylon Tri Radial and here comes Moonwave, (Gunboat 63?) on a reciprocal course but heading a little higher. I would estimate we were in 90 degrees true and she was in 70 degrees true carrying a pricy, almost masthead, laminate, screacher. Her AIS indicated 5.2 to 6.5 knots while we were making 7.4 to 8.2 knots. My wife and son were still in bed, Summer Magic was running singlehanded.

Why would I spend the extra couple mil?

 

Because you can't buy your boat (in any sort of production capacity) and want more accoutrements?? For 90% of folks, you have the perfect ride...they just don't know it!

The GB68 looks wicked, and I should also think that none of these boats are particularly well suited to racing around the cans. The C600 race results are pretty real world and fair. Keep in mind only Elvis, 2x 70 foot all out racers and Rambler 88 managed to escape the high in last years Newport to Bermuda Race. If that isn't impressive, then fast boats with creature comforts aren't for you.

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Condor looks good on the water, but I'm curious what the folks who sailed her actually thought for her first time out....

 

 

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Still about that J0/FR0, ...

On 7/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, soma said:

I stole that from Fujin. We needed to compete with the HH66's cabin top headsail. HH had to add a lot of carbon to get the coachroof to handle the sheet loads. The aft beam on the GB68 was already beefed up. We had to trim the aft edge coachroof to get a decent sheet lead, which sacrificed some shade, but low wind performance was a goal worth pursuing. 

The Gunboat 66 had the traveler on the coachroof. How much more weight does that add?

On a related note, the HH55 has tracks and winches on the coachroof. Is that a really bad idea? How good is a HH55? At the price, I assumed they were very nice boats. They look comfortable and reasonably fast. But they cost as much as the Gunboat 60 cost new in 2012.

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34 minutes ago, Rocket Raccoon said:

Still about that J0/FR0, ...

The Gunboat 66 had the traveler on the coachroof. How much more weight does that add?

Traveler on the coachroof is bad for several reasons. A cantilevered boom drives boom weight up. Trav on coachroof adds weight to the coachroof/door bulkhead. The boom raises up to make room for the mainsheet blocks, and traveler controls are isolated up there making them awkward to get down. It IS nice for not taking fingers off, though. 

34 minutes ago, Rocket Raccoon said:

On a related note, the HH55 has tracks and winches on the coachroof. Is that a really bad idea?

Not really. Some people love cabin-back/door bulkhead steering. If you have steering there, you need winches. I don't love door bulkhead steering but it's one of the least bad options. 

34 minutes ago, Rocket Raccoon said:

How good is a HH55? 

They're...great for the price. They're good boats. They're ugly as sin to my eye, though. "Life's too short to own an ugly boat". They aren't Sunreef ugly, but I don't like them. 

34 minutes ago, Rocket Raccoon said:

At the price, I assumed they were very nice boats. They look comfortable and reasonably fast. But they cost as much as the Gunboat 60 cost new in 2012.

Not afaik. I thought the "intro" price was $2.4m for the GB60, but the actual cost was $3m+. The HH55 should be about $2m. The buyer has the leverage with HH, so lean on the advertised price and the price will go down before you sign the contract. A GB will always end up a lot more than the advertised price at contract signing. After that, both prices will go up. Plus, the HH55 probably has as much internal volume as the GB68, and 95% the performance, at 1/3rd the cost. It's a good buy  

I'd really struggle to buy either boat, though. If you HAD to buy new, I'd go for the TS5 for $800k. Or if you don't care about buying used, a 5x for $1.2m has more volume and performance than the GB60 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost. Or Paradox for $1m. Or Finn for $1.2m. Or Extreme H20 for $2.5m. 

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43 minutes ago, soma said:

Not afaik. I thought the "intro" price was $2.4m for the GB60, but the actual cost was $3m+. The HH55 should be about $2m. The buyer has the leverage with HH, so lean on the advertised price and the price will go down before you sign the contract. A GB will always end up a lot more than the advertised price at contract signing. After that, both prices will go up. Plus, the HH55 probably has as much internal volume as the GB68, and 95% the performance, at 1/3rd the cost. It's a good buy  

I'd really struggle to buy either boat, though. If you HAD to buy new, I'd go for the TS5 for $800k. Or if you don't care about buying used, a 5x for $1.2m has more volume and performance than the GB60 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost. Or Paradox for $1m. Or Finn for $1.2m. Or Extreme H20 for $2.5m. 

So, I'll show my ignorance and admit that this doesn't make any sense to me.  The HH55 has 95% of the performance with comparable interior volume in a boat that's 13' shorter?  Doesn't that imply that the hulls would have to be wider (volume = l x w x h) and that wet surface and drag would be greater?  I thought the whole point of narrowing the hulls was to slice through the water better...

As for price differences new, I'm assuming the difference is due to cheaper labor in China vs France and lower quality finishes throughout the boat.  Granted, the labor cost difference has to be the dominant difference as I remember you and I discussing the labor hours on the GB55/57s.  At $20/hr difference for ballpark 40,000 hours, that would come out to $800k at cost in just direct labor.  Should be worth $1.2M on the price....

Does the Outremer 5X really have more performance that a GB60?!?!  Wow....

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1 minute ago, HotCarNut said:

The HH55 has 95% of the performance with comparable interior volume in a boat that's 13' shorter? 

The HH55 does have beamy hulls, and a LONG bridgedeck. But, its beamy overall and all-carbon, with a big stick and a big headsail. I'd think she's 95% as fast. MM's VPP put her about even with Phaedo, which is behind the 68, but damn quick. 

1 minute ago, HotCarNut said:

Doesn't that imply that the hulls would have to be wider (volume = l x w x h) and that wet surface and drag would be greater?  I thought the whole point of narrowing the hulls was to slice through the water better...

Yeah. The 68 really underperformed IMHO last week. I woulda expected her to do better. We had a long debate about the transoms in the water on the 68. Maybe that's slowing her down? 

1 minute ago, HotCarNut said:

As for price differences new, I'm assuming the difference is due to cheaper labor in China vs France and lower quality finishes throughout the boat. 

Yup

1 minute ago, HotCarNut said:

Granted, the labor cost difference has to be the dominant difference as I remember you and I discussing the labor hours on the GB55/57s.  At $20/hr difference for ballpark 40,000 hours, that would come out to $800k at cost in just direct labor.  Should be worth $1.2M on the price....

The HH55 is probably 2/3rds the hours. Labor is probably 80% cheaper in China.  Those two add up. 

1 minute ago, HotCarNut said:

Does the Outremer 5X really have more performance that a GB60?!?!  Wow....

Yup. Mach Schnel vs a couple of the GB60's and HH66 showed what a 5x can do. Most folks don't treat the Outremers like Mach Schnell did, but the 5x is quick when you lean on her. Shit blows up, but the same happens on the other boats, too. (Why "No Limits" is so slow is beyond me...)

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18 hours ago, soma said:

I'd really struggle to buy either boat, though. If you HAD to buy new, I'd go for the TS5 for $800k. Or if you don't care about buying used, a 5x for $1.2m has more volume and performance than the GB60 at 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost. Or Paradox for $1m. Or Finn for $1.2m. Or Extreme H20 for $2.5m. 

Thanks a lot @soma, I really appreciate your input. Lots of good info here.

I didn't know about Marsaudon. Looks interesting. I see that the architect is Christophe Barreau, who also designed Catana 431, 471/472, 581/582, and 50. The 471 and 581 were known in their time to be decent. The 50 is at least as good as the 471, except the very early hull numbers that may have been very heavy. But I had the impression that Barreau hadn't innovated much since the 471. I guess I was wrong, the TS5 looks great.

The Outremer 5X looks great too.

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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:19 PM, Rasputin22 said:

Thanks. How is your Offshore spar for the new project? Is that the same section that the big new Chris White cat is using. Seems like Chris has tried every spar configuration in the book. 

Chris is not afraid to try new things and understand what drives a boat. I have video of the 72 doing sustained 24 knots (8 minutes plus) in flat seas in about 22 knots of breeze. The main is a smallish flatter sail with very little roach...….that boat goes like a bat outta hell. It's wicked light too. 

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8 hours ago, mpenman said:

Chris is not afraid to try new things and understand what drives a boat. I have video of the 72 doing sustained 24 knots (8 minutes plus) in flat seas in about 22 knots of breeze. The main is a smallish flatter sail with very little roach...….that boat goes like a bat outta hell. It's wicked light too. 

Really like and am biased towards his stuff but the downside of what you are saying is that it sometimes it can maybe feel like the customer/owner is the guinea pig is an expirment.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Really like and am biased towards his stuff but the downside of what you are saying is that it sometimes it can maybe feel like the customer/owner is the guinea pig is an expirment.

Chris and his wife were their own guinea pigs for quite some time when they sailed their unstayed schooner rigged tri Juniper all over the Caribbean where I first met him. That was probably the most novel or unusual rig and the boat has since been re-rigged conventionally but for a 52' tri the original rig seemed pretty effective handy for just a couple. Guess that experiment gave him the chops to continue to evolve and not necessarily at the risk of a customer/client.

    I was never convinced the MastFoil had all the advantages that were claimed for it but it seems that Chris has moved on from that. One of his new 72'ers from Aquidneck is rigged very conventionally (even has a backstay!) and the other is right on the cutting edge with two unstayed rotating foil masts in a bi-plane configuration(actually this boat is the 70F). That should be good for some real world side by side testing and comparisons.

Good insights from Chris in this chat with the guy who bought JUNIPER and re-rigged it from the unstayed masts.

https://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.com/keyword/wing masts/

image.thumb.png.1098242a641628c454a04a71f879ae56.png

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The MastFoil boats always seemed slightly under-canvassed to me but I'm no expert. The bi-plane rigged boat looks very interesting. I'm curious to see how it gets around the apparent blanketing issue that bi-plane rigs seem to have. There's a Kelsall-designed cat with a similar unstayed setup but I think Kelsall has come to the conclusion that having the masts stayed to each other is the best solution. He writes at length about it here and says he has no blanketing issues:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/derek-kelsall/the-new-kelsall-cat-rig/194891017266198/

The catamaran in question is called "Cool Change": 
12.jpg.3a18bee703b6baaa344c623bd97535a5.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Really like and am biased towards his stuff but the downside of what you are saying is that it sometimes it can maybe feel like the customer/owner is the guinea pig is an expirment

Exactly. I applaud Chris's efforts to develop a better mousetrap, and sometimes the pioneers have an experiment that fails.

The Mastfoil seeks to cure a real problem (caught in a squall with a big mainsail up, hard to reef it quickly with small crew) but I don't think it's the best solution. I hate the idea of an unreefable big wing mast. You can't weather cock it in all conditions (rapidly changing wind directions that swirl back and forth) so it becomes a liability. I read a blog post by the owner of one who was going very quickly under just the wing masts alone - in moderate winds. What happens when moderate goes to full gale? 

My Richard Woods cat has a big genoa/small main (520 sq ft/320 sq ft) that was very good in that squall condition. Roll up genoa fast and then get to reefing the main. You reduce sail area by 60% immediately. When sailing downwind in moderate trades, just use the big genoa instead of a big main chafing itself on swept back shrouds and blanketing a tiny jib.

 

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OK, a few more questions about the J0/FR0:

Why is it called a FR0? What's "fractional" about it (compared to other sails)? Why "reacher" when it seems to be an upwind sail? Why "0" when it shares the same tack line as the J1 (I believe)?

On a related note, how good is the sail in its original intended use, i.e. as a downwind sail? It seems to me that it would be really good in a strong breeze when a bigger genny is too much and the smaller solent too little. (That is why I asked above if it was related to Gabbart's famous MDTK.)

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

Really like and am biased towards his stuff but the downside of what you are saying is that it sometimes it can maybe feel like the customer/owner is the guinea pig is an expirment.

I'll disagree. Have not met too many unhappy CW boat owners. I've met a few disgruntled 'other owners'. The wing mast was an outta the box thinking and for the most part works excellent. To Zonkers point I'll take a wing mast over any in boom furling. What amazes me is the actual size of the wing masts, they're not that much bigger than a regular mast. 

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:18 PM, soma said:

Traveler on the coachroof is bad for several reasons. A cantilevered boom drives boom weight up. Trav on coachroof adds weight to the coachroof/door bulkhead. The boom raises up to make room for the mainsheet blocks, and traveler controls are isolated up there making them awkward to get down. It IS nice for not taking fingers off, though. 

How does a cantilevered boom because of a coach roof traveler drive up the weight? The GB 68 has a cantilevered boom too. There are pro's and con's to the where the main sheet handling is placed. I like all lines led to a central station. If, in the case of the gb 68, the mainsheet is on the aft bulkhead, then to control that mainsheet from the forward cockpit you need something to control it with. I don't believe those weight savings are real. I do agree that you need to review the torsion/stress on the saloon. Very, very interesting how much twist there is in a bigger saloon.

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:18 PM, soma said:

Or Extreme H20 for $2.5m. 

In it's current configuration that is NOT a cruising boat.

I was on GB6801 reviewing their rig. They (GB France) have done a number of interesting and smart things. I think that hulls 2, 3 and 4 will be even better built. I think that GB support will now be top notch. GB has helped the performance catamaran segment as much as CW's boats have...….

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions here, but in the interest of being factual I’d like to clarify a few things:

  • In 2012 a Gunboat 60 was selling for $2.5-2.7 Mil with aircon, sails, genset, exworks Xiamen, China. (Source: I was the PM)
  • A HH55 does not have the same internal volume and so far nobody knows if it is 95% of the performance of a GB68 in the real world, but it was designed as an owner operator boat and of course, it all depends on weight and conditions. Ask the question: if HH6603 Nala is 95% the performance of GB6801 Condor, then why or how would HH align their smaller owner operator to match their big sister? (Source: I was the PM)
  • A TS is a cool boat, hell, I would have one – but bear in mind it addresses a different type of client, one that is happy with less comfort and aesthetics inside in favor of weight savings and price point. It is not a fair comparison. I’m OK with dome nuts sticking out of the roll-on coated ceiling above my head, but most Gunboat clients aren’t. (Source: Been on board the TS5)
  • 5X’s are great, I sail on them regularly and work with the engineers daily. A stock 5X has fantastic value for money performance on a boat designed to do family cruising. The single boat referred to here is Mach Schnell in the hands of ex Elvis boat captain (Since then, they have actually bought Elvis), it was optimized and did well in heavier air races, against centerboard/non optimized GB60’s, correct. The boat felt the punishment though as it wasn’t really designed for being pushed to the limit like that – like putting running backstays onto padeyes that were designed to handle a spinnaker sheet. :P (Source: Gunboat is owned by GLY, who also own Outremer)
  • Paradox, Finn and Extreme H20 are all highly customized and high performance boats with the trimarans being full custom one-offs and not part of a fleet or support network. Can be perfect for the right owner for sure, but be real about the vessel you buy. (Source: know all 3 boats and the people who designed and built them, sailed on Extreme)
  • For some more info and our views on the very first Gunboat 68 racing from the people on the racecourse – check out https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/209648-gunboat-68-race-results/

Look, I think that we can make any claim here, it is the internet after all! What I would recommend to anyone in this sector of the market is to know that it is all relative. You can take many of these platforms and make it go fast, but then you may not have the luxury factor or the creature comforts you want or have as much fun cruising or being part of a great community.

It is all in the melting pot and the big challenge with these boats, having managed a bunch of projects now (MC^2 60, GB60, HH66,HH55, GB68) is finding the right balance. And  when you get it right for 80% of your target market you still lose some clients who want to get out of that envelope. That’s life.

I think it’s great that there are so many options out there now, but do your research, there’s a lot of misinformation out there. ;)

Meanwhile, I've been quite busy out here in France, Gunboat 6802 DASH launched last week and we had her flying along at 20 knots on the second day of seatrials! All good. 

Buzzing.JPG

Greenflash_.png

Space_Ship.png

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1 hour ago, Greenflash said:

having managed a bunch of projects now (MC^2 60, GB60, HH66,HH55, GB68)

Holy smokes, that's quite a CV. How many MC^2 60's were built? I always loved that design but when Dragon hit the market for somewhere between US$2-3m (if I remember correctly) I quickly realized I'd need a lottery win to realize that dream.

Also, on the thread topic, I don't think anyone needs to look much further than to the fact that countless boats are sold as "Gunboat killers" or "Bargain Gunboat" or along similar lines like that. Clearly the brand is something to aspire to and I think the 68 will do nothing but bolster that. I hope you build and sell lots because the more of them there are the more likely I'll be to see one on the water and maybe even come along for a sail.

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On 7/28/2019 at 3:28 PM, boardhead said:

 

So yesterday morning we were reaching from the mouth of the Sakonnet River on a west south westerly course down to Block Island in a light south easterly carrying a bullet proof, cheap, 2.2 oz nylon Tri Radial and here comes Moonwave, (Gunboat 63?) on a reciprocal course but heading a little higher. I would estimate we were in 90 degrees true and she was in 70 degrees true carrying a pricy, almost masthead, laminate, screacher. Her AIS indicated 5.2 to 6.5 knots while we were making 7.4 to 8.2 knots. My wife and son were still in bed, Summer Magic was running singlehanded.

Why would I spend the extra couple mil?

 

A few week earlier 

an easy 8-10 knots , what more could you want? 

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On 7/31/2019 at 7:46 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Chris and his wife were their own guinea pigs for quite some time when they sailed their unstayed schooner rigged tri Juniper all over the Caribbean where I first met him...

I liked his book on Cat design. And for those unaware, he's the one who pioneered the front cockpit helm station now thoroughly associated with Gunboats.

The Cruising Multihull Paperback – Chris White

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Call me old fashioned but the ability to sail, dock, beach, maintain, enjoy and afford my own world cruiser at the ripe old age of 67 keeps me well away from bigger, more complex and hugely more costly options.

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On 7/28/2019 at 12:28 PM, boardhead said:

Cover for chafe protection? But , hey, this is just so fascinating!

So yesterday morning we were reaching from the mouth of the Sakonnet River on a west south westerly course down to Block Island in a light south easterly carrying a bullet proof, cheap, 2.2 oz nylon Tri Radial and here comes Moonwave, (Gunboat 63?) on a reciprocal course but heading a little higher. I would estimate we were in 90 degrees true and she was in 70 degrees true carrying a pricy, almost masthead, laminate, screacher. Her AIS indicated 5.2 to 6.5 knots while we were making 7.4 to 8.2 knots. My wife and son were still in bed, Summer Magic was running singlehanded.

Why would I spend the extra couple mil?

 

When one has a fair tide, anyone can be fast...

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